121. Bright Ideology

Summary

Where Politics Meets History – Episode 121: Bright Ideology

Hosts: Iain Dale and Dr Tessa Dunlop
Date: May 5, 2026
Podcast Theme: Examining the Week’s Headlines Through the Lens of History

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Episode Overview

In "Bright Ideology," Iain Dale and Dr Tessa Dunlop take a deep dive into how current political trends – particularly the tension between individualism (liberalism) and collectivism (conservatism and socialism) – echo historic patterns in Britain. Their witty and spirited conversation ranges from philosophical discussions about ideology, the impact of bereavement, gender voting patterns, policy debates, to questions from listeners. Despite personal anecdotes and banter, the episode maintains a strong focus on how history informs today's political divisions, polarization, and voter behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Liberalism vs. Conservatism: The Individual and the Collective

• Opening Theme: Iain frames the episode around how liberalism prioritizes the individual, while conservatism and socialism focus on collective structures, such as the church (faith, tradition) and worker solidarity.
  • "Liberalism forefronts the individual, so Ian Dale is at the front, whereas conservatism and socialism forefront the collective." (00:32, Iain Dale)

Historical Roots and Developments

• Tessa notes that the idea of individuals breaking from collective, static life is a 19th-century phenomenon (Cobden, Bright, Gladstone, Mill), with the mid-20th century finally seeing greater social mobility. (15:48–16:38)
• Iain describes a pre-modern world as static and homogenous, with limited economic and social mobility, setting the stage for liberalism’s rise and subsequent adoption as establishment thinking. (16:38)
• Both discuss how modern British political leadership since Thatcher has incorporated elements of liberalism – sometimes resulting in an awkward ideological blend within traditional parties (Thatcher as "Gladstonian liberal"; Blair, Cameron, and Brown's economic liberalism). (14:05–15:22)

Quote:
“She [Thatcher] was like a magpie and picked bits of ideology from different people... which have been labelled liberal.” (15:18, Tessa Dunlop)

2. Ideology Today: Populism, Polarization, and Political Discourse

• Iain: Liberalism is now the “establishment” position and has become the main target of populist movements ("what populism is now whipping"). (19:22)
• Tessa: Ideology can become rigid and dogmatic, replacing pragmatism. The current era is described as "an age of ideology to the exclusion of everything else," drawing parallels to the way religion once provided certainty. (21:57–22:24)

Quote:
"Any ideology inevitably is going to go wrong because some ideologies can't adapt to the times that they live in." (21:57, Tessa Dunlop)

• Discussion on pragmatism vs. dogma, using Keir Starmer and Nigel Farage as opposites: Starmer is seen as overly empiricist and lacking in ideological roots, while Farage’s clarity and simplicity appeals to many voters. (23:35–25:05)

3. Grief, Modern Life, and the Shrinking of Time

• Personal Moment: Iain shares his recent bereavement and reflects on how modern life leaves little time or space for sadness, despite technological advancements presumably meant to "save us time." (02:02–03:20)
• Discussion of Sloth and Guilt: The guilt at not spending more time with loved ones is tied back to broader themes of time management and modern pressure.

Quote:
"There's no time to be sad... there's all these modern inventions to save us time, and yet there's less and less time. I feel constantly rushed, like Mrs. Hurry." (03:21, Iain Dale)

4. Gender, Voting, and Political Shifts

• Dan Hannan’s Tweet: Tessa brings up a graphic showing how, if only women aged 18–50 voted, the Greens would win a vast majority, with Labour also outperforming Conservatives and Reform nearly erased.
  • "Greens would have 482 out of 650 MPs... Labour 80, Conservatives 8." (08:05–08:10, Tessa Dunlop)
• Gender-based political preferences are discussed, with Iain attributing women's political shift to feeling excluded by an increasingly "masculine" establishment and public discourse lacking in empathy. (08:28)

5. Party Platforms, Populist Policies, and Their Shortcomings

• Green and Reform Parties: Both hosts critique the "batshit" elements of the Green and Reform parties’ platforms when scrutinized.
  • "Virtually every area of their policy platform is batshit..." (09:22, Tessa Dunlop)
  • Reform’s new policy to "dump all illegal asylum seekers in constituencies controlled by the Greens" is mocked as evidence of populist posturing. (09:35)

6. Ideology, Migration, and the Brexit Aftermath

• The difficulties of liberal ideology dealing with migration are discussed as a core reason for its recent struggles and the Brexit vote.
  • “That's the reason why Nigel Farage is successful, because he can do that... most people do not think like we do...” (25:05, Tessa Dunlop)
• Differentiation between initial migrants (often productive, propping up public services) versus family migration and its fiscal impact. (25:48–26:48)
• The hosts argue that the perception of immigration as negative, particularly among left-liberal demographics, contributed to support for Brexit, regardless of statistical fact. (27:44–28:31)

7. Listener Questions & Rapid-Fire Topics

(See Listener Questions Segment for detail and timestamps)

• Marriage rights and the “peanut in a jar” sex analogy (29:38–32:04)
• The importance and memories of inspiring history teachers (33:33–35:06)
• Critiques of Romanian language GCSE (38:03–39:40)
• Election night vote counting and ballot security (39:40–41:45)
• Candidate ID checks vs. voter ID (44:38–45:36)
• Reflections on public broadcasting, gender, and pay (47:01–48:00)
• Body image and perceptions of intellect (48:11–48:20)
• Book promotion, events, and more personal/professional asides (49:00 onward)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Iain Dale on Ideological Rigidity:
  "Just in the same way that I think slightly weak minded people use religion as a crutch, they also use ideology as a crutch." (22:24)
• Tessa Dunlop on Dogma vs. Ideology:
  "Is ideology the same as dogma? I'm not sure it is. I mean, dogma is a pejorative word. Ideology, I don't think necessarily is." (22:19)
• On Loss of Community:
  "Isn't it about the breakdown of the community? The collective is missing and that's why people are looking towards these extreme solutions..." (21:25, Iain Dale)
• Iain Dale on Political Flexibility:
  "I'm not an ideologue... I'm a floating voter. So, yes, I'm easy to buy." (13:13)
• "Peanut in a jar" Analogy: Used humorously by Ian to illustrate the decline in marital sexual frequency. (29:38–30:51)
• Touching Listener Email:
  On the inequalities of dying and the importance of grief (42:18–43:44).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:32 – 01:15 | Introduction of main theme: Liberalism vs. Conservatism
• 02:02 – 03:20 | Personal reflection on bereavement and time
• 05:24 – 09:50 | Discussion of UK current events: policing, gender and voting, party platforms
• 13:37 – 18:15 | Are you a Conservative or a Liberal? Historical — and personal — analysis
• 19:22 – 21:05 | Liberalism becomes establishment ideology; the rise of populist reaction
• 21:57 – 23:35 | Is ideology the new dogma? The risks for politicians
• 25:05 – 27:44 | Nigel Farage’s populism vs. Keir Starmer’s pragmatism, and migration as a political faultline
• 33:31 – 35:58 | Discussion of history teachers' influence
• 39:40 – 41:45 | Overnight ballot counting and election transparency debate
• 44:38 – 45:36 | Candidate ID requirements vs. Voter ID rules
• 47:01 – 48:00 | Gender and broadcasting pay, personal banter
• 49:00 – 50:44 | Book promotions, event plugs, wrap-up banter

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Listener Questions & Rapid-Fire Topics

(29:07–51:29)

• Marriage, Cohabitation, and “Peanut in a Jar” Analogy: Iain’s humorous take on sex and marriage laws. (29:38–32:04)
• Favourite History Teachers: Inspiring educators’ role in shaping their passion for history. (33:31–35:58)
• GCSE Romanian Language: Iain refutes objections to offering Romanian as a GCSE, highlighting issues of inclusion and the function of language exams. (38:03–39:40)
• Election Vote Counting: Debate regarding overnight vs. next-day election counts in the UK. Iain raises concerns over security and loss of interest with delayed counts. (39:40–41:45)
• Voter vs. Candidate ID: Examination of the criteria needed to stand as a local candidate, compared with new voter ID requirements. (44:38–45:36)
• Gender and Pay in Broadcasting: Witty exchange highlighting persistent pay inequality. (47:01–48:00)
• Body Image and “Looking Intellectual”: Light banter linking appearance and perception of intellect; self-deprecating humor. (48:11–48:20)
• Book Promotions and Upcoming Events: Closing minutes focus on their own recent and upcoming publications and personal appearances. (49:00–51:07)

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Tone, Language & Style

The episode is characteristically witty, fast-paced, and intellectually sharp, with plenty of good-natured ribbing, candid personal reveals, and moments of poignant reflection. Iain and Tessa balance insightful historical analysis with personal anecdotes and listener interaction, making the content accessible and engaging for both dedicated followers and new listeners.

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Summary Conclusion

"Bright Ideology" showcases the strengths of Where Politics Meets History: blending historical context with contemporary politics, interrogating how and why today's social and ideological divisions have come about, and remembering that behind every headline – and every historical trend – are real human experiences and emotions. The episode is as much about how history shapes politics as it is about how personal experience (loss, identity, community) shapes our understanding of both.

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For more details: Visit iandale.com or Dr. Tessa Dunlop's Substack for upcoming events and publications.

Transcript

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[Ian Dale]

This is a global Player Original Podcast Liberalism forefronts the individual, so Ian Dale is at the front, whereas conservatism and socialism forefront the collective. Whether that's the church, which is what reform would argue, flag faith, etc. Or whether that's, I don't know, Socialist Workers Party and all, putting your penny in and having your game of poker and believing everyone should earn the same. AM and when I think about you, actually on almost every front, you're more liberal than you are conservative. If I drill into that pure version

[Tessa Dunlop]

of the philosophy, yes, I think that's true. Oh God, I'm exhausted already.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, well, I'm basically editing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She's only been here for like 10 minutes and I feel as though I've been through the wringer.

[Ian Dale]

I am editing Ian's fluff because he wants to regale you with two travel logs.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That does not conjure up a nice oh, Corey's being sick as we speak.

[Ian Dale]

Welcome to Bank Hole Demand. Except by the time you listen to this, it will be grind on Tuesday. Yes, but it's a short week, so chin up. We're going to talk at length and deeply. We're going to probe the collective versus the individual. Liberalism versus Conservatism.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Bank Holiday. That's a bit intellectual, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

It won't be when people listen and we're careering towards a seminal set of local elections.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We are.

[Ian Dale]

So I think it's important we dig into what's going on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We also have a seminal set of questions. I've been bombarded with questions over the last few days. You apparently haven't had any.

[Ian Dale]

I had a couple of ones to say they were sorry about my friend dying. By the way, Ian wants to tell you about Sloth. I'm getting in first, so I have been very, very I've been knocked sideways by feeling sad about my dear friend Mark Saltmarsh dying and didn't expect him to die even though he had cancer, because I was looking at text messages and he basically assured me he wasn't going to die. And then you on the phone went. I think. I think you should go to counselor. A grief cat. I'm not going to pay to be sad.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Should we put the context in here?

[Ian Dale]

Okay.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You phoned me up on. Was it quite early on Saturday morning when I was still in bed? I was awake and you were howling down the phone.

[Ian Dale]

I wasn't howling.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you kind of were.

[Ian Dale]

Was I crying?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. Was I?

[Ian Dale]

I don't remember.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Uncontrollably?

[Ian Dale]

No. I don't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They were.

[Ian Dale]

You just don't have enough women in your life. That wasn't uncontrollable. That was just normal.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It sounded it to me. So I thought I was. I was doing the right thing and being kind and advising you to see a grief counselor.

[Ian Dale]

You weren't fobbing me off?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No. Well, maybe a little bit.

[Ian Dale]

Fucking wanker. Do you know what, false friend? I should have spent less time with

[Tessa Dunlop]

you and more time than mine because I know people. I've never seen a grief counselor because I've never felt the need to. But I do know people who have, and they are a good thing.

[Ian Dale]

I'm sure they are, but I don't want to go to one. Well, they are.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's your decision.

[Ian Dale]

Time to be sad.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't have a go at me for

[Ian Dale]

suggesting it, but what I found is there's no time to be sad. You know, so many. What is it about life? There's all these modern inventions to save us time, and yet there's less and less time. I feel constantly rushed, like Mrs. Hurry. And I think one of the sadnesses I have is that I didn't give Mark more time. Actually, like lots of people who are meaningful to me, he was lucky. Saw me twice last year. And that idea of, like, the shrinking of time, I don't understand.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You're absolutely right on that. But in the end, Tessa, it's down to us to control our time. And I sort of completely sort of stupid analogy here, but I think, why don't I ever have the chance to watch television anymore? Why don't I watch these series that I used to. And it's because I don't control my time like I used to.

[Ian Dale]

Never. But, you know, then, then because of my sadness, I was a bit all over the shop. That same day, Saturday, I was committed to doing the newspaper Review on Radio 5. And because I wasn't sleeping very well, I had a kip before going on air to review the newspaper.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's never a good idea, is it?

[Ian Dale]

A disco nap, as I call them. Well, anyway, also, I had a Glass of wine. I thought, I'll sleep it off, don't tell anyone. Anyway, so went to sleep at the 10 o' clock news. Thought I'd get up at 11, just an hour. The next thing I know, the phone is ringing and it's two minutes to midnight, all right? And I am like. It's like literally been given an electric shock. It was really unpleasant as I smashed around the attic looking for headphones, microph glasses, trying to download the newspapers, and before I know it, they're coming to me on Zach Polansky. I'm like, downloading the Daily Mail headline going, what the is going on here? I'm live on radio Mark cursing the dead. Literally. Anyway, it was. I found myself serving platitudes over a story that actually does matter. And I didn't. And I felt very angry with myself. And then I couldn't sleep till 3:30 because I was so adrenalized after that experience. What's your take on old Zacky Boy?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think he's been a bit of a silly billy, hasn't he? I don't think he. Well, in some ways he's come out of it well because he's got a lot of publicity. So people who didn't know who Zach Polanski was, they now do. Not necessarily for the right reasons, though I would say he was back on

[Ian Dale]

the Laura Klunsberg show. Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And then, you see, this is the odd thing, and that he apologized and then he reversed his apology. And I never think that's a good look.

[Ian Dale]

You can have a caveated apology. Two things can be true at the same time, one counteracting the other.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but he didn't caveat his initial apology. He just said, yeah, I shouldn't have said it. And so I think once. Once you go down that road. And now he's starting to have a go at Mark Rowley, which I'm not sure is a brilliant look.

[Ian Dale]

But surely you can agree that the platform where you placed your ire at an event is inappropriate.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That really washes with anybody, does it? It doesn't matter whether you say something on Twitter or whether you say it on a Laura Kuenssberg interview. The fact is you've said it and you either stand by it or you don't. There's no halfway house here.

[Ian Dale]

I think that the. The lack of nuance accorded to debate on social media forums means they're not the most appropriate space, although what it's done is drawn the attention. So, for example, I then went and looked at the film I did find by the third kick to his head, I was unable to watch it. And then a fourth one rained down.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not a nice watch. I completely accept that.

[Ian Dale]

It felt. It felt disproportion. And he wasn't posing a threat in that immediate moment.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He was. Because he had a knife in his hand.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And he was sitting on the knife. There was no way from the position.

[Tessa Dunlop]

If you have a knife in your hand, you pose a threat. And you're constantly told to release the knife and you don't, you are a threat. And therefore the police training manual will tell you you do anything to get that knife off the police.

[Ian Dale]

I think the final blow to the head came after the knife had been released. I'd need to double check on that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't care.

[Ian Dale]

I do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Weirdly, Dan Hannon tweeted A graphic from YouGov which shows how women between the ages of 80, how Parliament would look, how the House of Commons would look if only women between the ages of 18 and 50 voted. How do you think it would look?

[Ian Dale]

I think it would. Okay, so I know that reform is more popular with men because I read that this morning in the ft. Funnily enough, prepping for you. I do love my ft. I trust it more than the others. Don't know why. That's the intellectual snob. So let's move off reform and then go to Green. I think Green would attract more women, particularly young women from polling. I think that also maybe they vote more Liberal. And I'm going to say I think Liberal, Labour and Green more out of

[Tessa Dunlop]

650 MPs, Greens would have 482.

[Ian Dale]

There you are. I got that right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Labour would have, I think, 80 conservatives, eight liberal Democrats, 50, and then sort of a few others. Reform, virtually none, which I thought was astonishing because it used to be the case that women formed the major part of the Conservative vote.

[Ian Dale]

I know. But I think that women have felt excluded by an establishment that's increasingly masculine, that is increasingly defined by grievance and against the other. And I think that a lot of the political discourse, particularly, but not only since Brexit, has had a lack of empathy in it. And that is why the likes of Zach Polenski and his plumber girl, who didn't actually come to my remaining GCSE event, but I'm not holding it against her, but I think that is. But I think that is why they speak to a kind of tree hugging, yearning Greta Thunberg. Need to see the small person.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But given the batshit craziness of the Green Party platform overall. I was surprised it was that many.

[Ian Dale]

I think that they've tried hard, haven't they? They were caught out when grilled about their taxation. This kind of idea of grabbing all the wealth from the rich people.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Virtually every area of their policy platform is batshit when. When it comes under scrutiny, it completely falls apart.

[Ian Dale]

You can say the same thing about reform. I mean, they can't stop the boats because it's not in their control because it's on France.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Their latest policy announcement today. Wait till you hear this. They're going to dump all the illegal asylum seekers in constituencies or council areas controlled by the Greens. That's a serious policy they've come out with.

[Ian Dale]

And I rest my case on batshit. Will we go to a break? And by the way.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, hang on, we haven't done my fluff yet.

[Ian Dale]

I was about to say Ian didn't get time for his fluff. I feel I've won this. My grief has smothered your pleasure.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm going to let Corey arbit.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, yes, it's a break. Corey charged.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, well, we can. We'll have fluff at the beginning of the second bit then, won't we?

[Ian Dale]

Or the end of the show, maybe.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Dear, oh dear. This used to be my publisher curls.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, as I was about to say, I've spent the weekend in the beautiful town of Foy in Cornwall. Now you. You went there last year.

[Ian Dale]

I wasn't invited a second time, which is why I've been trying to move on to conservatism versus liberalism. It's quite hurt, actually.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was a. It's a lovely little festival.

[Ian Dale]

He went down with his old tart, Sian Williams and Sarah Vine. And there wasn't a sniff of Tessa Dunlop.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Jeremy Hunt as well.

[Ian Dale]

God, all the old lags the establishment schlepped out of London.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Lord Peter Ricketts.

[Ian Dale]

God, I'm so glad.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I wanted to, actually. You would like his book. It's called how the Foreign Office Shaped the Post War Something or other. And it's all about the men and women who worked in the Foreign Office during the war. And there may be one or two characters that you may have come across. It's absolutely fascinating. I'm going to give it to you to read.

[Ian Dale]

My book's out in paperback, but please.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, let's have a look.

[Ian Dale]

No, can we do that at the end? Because I do think there's a place and a time for self aggrandizement.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not self aggrandizement.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's at the end.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not self aggrandizement. I'm just saying what I did at the weekend.

[Ian Dale]

No, that's good. No, that. But to talk about my book. But I. Self aggrandizement.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, because I'm happy to talk about your book.

[Ian Dale]

I know. I want to move us to conservatism, liberalism. And then at the end.

[Tessa Dunlop]

In a moment. In a moment. Because I need to tell you about the men who were outside my bedroom window half the time. Because I arrived at this hotel and they gave me a room that didn't look over the harbour. So I went downstairs and I said, well, the festival people told me I'd have a room with a view. Well, no, they wouldn't have done that. I said, they did. And so then I got a room with a view. It's a lovely, lovely room. Bloody scaffolding over all the windows. And then there were men out there doing things.

[Ian Dale]

Sounds like the Diet Coke ad. I rest my case on Ian's travel logs at the beginning of the podcast

[Tessa Dunlop]

and I couldn't even see. What a wanker. I couldn't even see if they were hot.

[Ian Dale]

His hotel room wasn't up to spec. No, it wasn't a nasty white van.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'll tell you what, I had the most marvellous meal there.

[Ian Dale]

Right, now can we move the Foy

[Tessa Dunlop]

Harbour Hotel, should anyone wish to visit it?

[Ian Dale]

If anyone's got the money and cost. Cost of living crisis Britain. That just seems to have passed Ian by.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You voted for it.

[Ian Dale]

For what?

[Tessa Dunlop]

You voted Labor.

[Ian Dale]

I did not vote. Did you know I spoiled my ballot paper because of the way they treated our local primary school? But I'm now going to vote Labour because Helen Hayes engaged with me over the GCSE curriculum.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You're so easy to buy, aren't you?

[Ian Dale]

I'm not easy to buy. I'm a floating voter. So, yes, I'm easy to buy. I'm not an ideologue, which is what I'm desperately trying to get us onto.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So you voted Labour on Thursday. What do you think I voted this Thursday?

[Ian Dale]

Coming?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, because I voted in post vote.

[Ian Dale]

I haven't voted yet. I think you voted Conservative. Well, because you love Kemi, you and Kemi, anyway.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you. Are you interesting.

[Ian Dale]

Are you a Conservative or are you a Liberal? I'm not talking about party colours, because I want. If we're going to have this extraordinary polarization of our parties, pluralization of our parties, we need to understand what's going on. Which are you, Ian?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it depends. Broadly, I would say I'm liberal. I'm liberal on social issues and I'm liberal on economic issues. So, yeah, liberal, but not in the American sense of the word.

[Ian Dale]

Do you think in some ways Thatcher is culpable for the crisis that subsequently conservatism has found itself in, where she injected this laissez faire, free market ideology into a conservative hierarchical party?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I would take issue with the word hierarchical. I think paternalistic would be the more appropriate word. I don't think she's responsible for what happens afterwards. The politicians of those times are responsible for what happens afterwards. If you look at it, by the 1970s, the sort of Butzkelite consensus had failed effectively. The mixture of labor socialist social policies and conservative paternalistic policies, which had been a consensus effectively since the formation of the welfare state going up to the 70s, that had failed. And she grabbed it all by the scruff of the neck and thought, well, we've got to do something different. And now it wasn't. I don't think she hadn't formed an ideology. She was like a magpie and picked bits of ideology from different people and different organizations and think tanks which have been labelled liberal.

[Ian Dale]

Certainly the economic side, you're right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She, I think, was more a Gladstonian liberal. And that's what I would probably say I was.

[Ian Dale]

Would you unpack for me when liberalism as not just an economic phenomenon, but something more political, more philosophical. Philosophical takes root societally. Can you pinpoint it in terms of the century or even the decade?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I would say the second half of the 19th century, with Cobden, Bright, Gladstone Mill, all the sort of thinkers of that ilk. I think that's probably the period when liberalism really started to take hold. And then in the first half of the 20th century, or certainly the first quarter of the 20th century, it went in the other direction through Lloyd George's welfare reforms.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I mean, I asked you a dodgy question there, because actually there's a sort of. It's a broad, moving feast. But from the late 18th century, early 19th century, what you have is an Increasingly mobile world. So previously you had this static world where basically you did what your parents did.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And there was like that existed right up until I would say the mid 20th century. In many respects I was the first generation to be pull out of that.

[Ian Dale]

But so in the 18th century, almost 100% of families didn't move within a sort of mile or two of where they were born. They were governed by an ideology of faith, a creed that everyone adhered to. It was a pretty homogeneous society and also it was economically static. So you might get 10% improved economics over a hundred year period, whereas now the Chinese economy grew by that much 10 years ago in one year. So you get with this explosion of wealth, you get this movement of people. And what I'd never really got my head around is that liberalism forefronts the individual. So Ian Dale is at the front. Whereas conservatism and socialism forefront the collective. Whether that's the church, which is what reform would argue, flag faith, etc, or whether that's, I don't know, the sexualist Workers Party and all, putting your penny in and having your game of poker and believing everyone should earn the same amount. And when I think about you actually on almost every front you're more liberal than you are conservative. If I drill into that pure version of the philosophy, yes, I think that's true. And yet what's happened to liberalism post Thatcher, when you still get the likes of Tony Blair, David Cameron, Gordon Brown buying into the liberal philosophy, using it differently.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But I would say Gordon Brown less

[Ian Dale]

so, except he fueled or believed in extreme wealth so long as he could tax it and then feed the money back in at the bottom. So he kind of handled it differently. But it was still about a liberal economic structure.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think up to a point. I think Tony Blair was much more on the liberal side economically. I think also you look at the consequences of the world financial crash and you couldn't say that the response to that was particularly liberal. And I think a lot of his social policies were actually quite conservative in some ways.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, so less, I would agree, caveat it, less so, but still not really pulling away back to a socialist order, still acknowledging that you need actually to cream from the fat cats to. In some ways it became increasingly flabby under him, the welfare state, that's where some of the problems lay. But what's really interesting. So if you have Adam Smith, the Wealth of nations, you have the sailing boat and the train and people moving

[Tessa Dunlop]

away just on Adam Smith. Have you been to Adam Smith house in Edinburgh? No, I haven't it's well worth a visit. It's like his actual house which is now houses the Adam Smith not Institute but some big Adam Smith organization and I. I did a talk there once in his living room which was a really strange feeling to do.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'll bear that in mind. Of course not only did I not go to foyer with you, but don't think I'm invited to Edinburgh this year either. So I don't know when I'll be next in Edinburgh. Anyway. Moving back to the individual versus the collective not part of Ian's team. He's very much the individ. It's okay, don't cut that bit Corey. But what I found fascinating is that that liberalism has become the establishment thinking. It's. It's what populism is now whipping, isn't it? So if you have reform going faith flag, you know, got to be a community.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do they? I mean flag, yes.

[Ian Dale]

Faith definitely 100%.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I mean Danny Krueger. Yes. But I don't really see any of the other major reform people sort of doing the faith bit.

[Ian Dale]

Professor James Orr, who's their policy wonk, their top thinker is very much into this idea of established religion.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, he may be, but Farage isn't. Thais isn't. Sio Youssef isn't.

[Ian Dale]

I don't know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Robert Chenwick I'm pretty sure isn't.

[Ian Dale]

And a patriotic idea of England English history, that it should be forefronted in schools.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, and it should. I agree with that.

[Ian Dale]

Right, okay, so that's interesting. That's a little conservative nodule in your thinking.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well is it though? I mean is not. And I'm not sure you describe that as liberal or conservative. I think most people would think that. Well, if you don't know your own country's history, you probably ought to. And I agree you should learn about world history as well. But surely your own history has to be learned.

[Ian Dale]

I think also it's the way in which you teach our history.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well that's true.

[Ian Dale]

So arguably Black History Month is also about British history, given that many of the stories we talk about in black history were part of the British imperial story.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And also black people have existed in this country for centuries, which most people don't know about. So I've got no great issue with that.

[Ian Dale]

Moving back to today's politics. So if, if we're not pro liberalism that the individual means the society breakdown, if we're blaming liberalism for shops on the high street closing. Are we? I don't know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We're blaming. Well, we could blame a huge number of things, but I don't think liberalism is one of them.

[Ian Dale]

Isn't it, isn't it about the breakdown of the community? The collective is missing and that's why people are looking towards these extreme solutions. Whether it's Zach Polanski, you know, don't kick a criminal, you know, hug a tree or Nigel Farage, hang up a flag, feel good about yourself, punch the air and puncture a boat, you know, those, those, collect those collective.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So you were doing quite well until the last bit.

[Ian Dale]

Extremes, but those collective extremes in the face of. So basically my question to you is, why has liberalism gone wrong? Because if it's now the establishment.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think any ideology inevitably is going to go wrong because some ideologies can't adapt to the times that they live in. And I think we're living in a time, we're almost living in an age of ideology to the exclusion of everything else. And so if you cling on to this ideology, it's a bit like clinging onto religion, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Which I always think dogma, you mean fanaticism.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is ideology the same as dogma? I'm not sure it is. I mean ideology, I think dogma is a pejorative word. Ideology, I don't think is necessarily, it can be, I don't think it's necessarily a pejorative word. But just in the same way that I think slightly weak minded people use religion as a crutch, they also use ideology as a crutch. So even if they doubt what they think about something, they can quote something from their own ideological background to justify it. And I think ideology has been the, it's been the downfall of many a politician over the years because they feel if they go against their ideology and become less a conviction politician, more of a pragmatist, that they'll be seen as weak. And I suffer from that all the time on social media. And that you're supposed to call yourself a conservative, you're nothing of the sort, you're a liberal Democrat. Because if I see something wrong in a conservative policy platform, I'm quite happy to accept that it's wrong. And I therefore think, well, the other thing is right, and that may not really go along with conservative ideology.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, that's versus being a polemicist, versus as being an empiricist. So rather than tacking to your polemical ideological corner to get votes or clicks, you actually look at what's happening. The truth, arguably your truth anyway, the empirical facts and then build your argument up from there. And I think that's one of the problems that's gone wrong. So Keir Starmer, arguably, he's always picking around, looking at the empirical arguments and making shuffling and not making a clear polemical argument. And therefore he's fallen in the middle.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You're absolutely right there. Because he has no ideological root. Roots. That's part of his problem as a politician. And he has nothing to fall back on, nothing to think. Oh, well, I think this because he can't articulate. No, exactly.

[Ian Dale]

It's interesting because I was looking at these six profiles of potential reform voters this week, and all of them, without fail, really, even though two of them came from immigrant heritage, you know, cited less immigration. Less immigration. And it was interesting. That's the sort of clear selling point for reform. It's very. It's a bit like Sadiq Khan saying, my dad was a bus driver. You know, it's like a really easy one to hook onto, whether you believe in it or not. It's an easy flag to pin to your mast, even if you know it doesn't make sense because your mother's being looked after by an immigrant, your father was an immigrant, etc. And Keir Starmer, I think he almost intellectualizes it too much and therefore is unable to color by numbers, as it were, and give us really short, sharp directions to move in.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And that's the reason why Nigel Farage is successful, because he can do that. And I think what people like the two of us sometimes don't compute is that most people do not think like we do. Most people don't even think about politics until they come to register a vote every few years. They are too busy getting on with their lives. And if you say to somebody, do you think there is. There's too much immigration? They will give it a moment's thought and they will say yes. And the reason that they say yes is because they think, well, there's too many unemployed, there are too many people on benefits, and therefore, why do we need so many immigrants? I mean, there is a logic to how they rationalize.

[Ian Dale]

Except huge numbers of the migrant population are working. They tend to be younger, they tend to be less expensive for the state because they don't have, you know, they're not pensionable age, and they often don't have children because they're here to work. And actually, it's a kind of misnomer that the immediate migrant population are the ones that are leeching our public services. Often they're propping our public services up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I mean, this is where you can use statistics for either side of the argument, because there are plenty of statistics show that actually overall immigration has cost the economy, but there are then other statistics to show that it's been a major benefit to the economy. So, I mean, we can trade all of those, however much we like. Somebody who believes that immigration, by and large is a good thing. But if you look at the welfare statistics, it's not necessarily the initial migrant that is costing, but it's when they bring their families, that's when they're costing.

[Ian Dale]

What's interesting about migration is where it sits in this liberal rubric. So if we've got liberalism and we look at Tony Blair, for example, breaks off, we let in far more migration from the east of Europe far more quickly than many of the other European countries did, for example. So arguably, we weren't cognizant or aware of the immigration impact on this liberal philosophy. And at the same time, your conservative or socialist philosophies are able to be, I think, much clearer on migration because it's about the individual. Isn't the individual trying to better himself? And certainly conservatism on the one hand says, well, that's an outsider, so you can't join our group because we're about the collective, we're about the static, so back off, mate. And liberalism finds that harder to do. They're harder. It's harder for them to be strong on migration. And I think they're therefore playing catch up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think that's. I think you've hit the. Put your finger on why liberalism since, say, 2003 has had a real problem, because it is. It is partly in, possibly largely about immigration, where, and I would say it's your demographic sort of on the liberal left who have had to come to terms with the fact that that level of immigration did not work. And effectively it's what led to Brexit. I would say that was one of the major factors behind Brexit, the fact that people thought, well, it's outrageous that we've had these millions of people from Eastern Europe undermining British plumbers, et cetera, et cetera, tradespeople and whatever, Whether you're left or right, you've had to admit that that was a problem or not

[Ian Dale]

a problem for everyone, but it was perceived as a problem. Well, it was a problem for the country. Well, it was certainly written up as a problem for the country, and I definitely experienced it firsthand because I was married to an East European. I Saw it in my own family. The way they spoke to him. Like a tradesperson from the 1950s.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Really?

[Ian Dale]

Yes. Will we go to a break?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think we have. Do you know, I think of the 121 episodes we've done, I think that's the most intellectual discussion discussion we've had.

[Ian Dale]

I'm exhausted.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Where I felt that I was an equal.

[Ian Dale]

I thought I whipped your ass. Break Corey.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Now for some reason I have been deluged with questions this week which I'm now going to see.

[Ian Dale]

I haven't been. I didn't know why because I was feeling very sad and I didn't feel like posting on social media. That's the truth, Ian, if you want the honest truth. One of my issues is it was all. Everything I did is so front bodies.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Before we get on to questions.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Would you like to explain your should we say outrageous performance on the Storm show? Explain what you mean by peanuts in jars.

[Ian Dale]

I actually took that off my. The front of my Instagram page.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, did you? Because I shared it.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, did you? I noticed nobody really liked it so I thought oh, it's not doing very well. I just unhook it. Basically we're talking about marriage and they're suggesting they're trying to change the law or the rules so that those people who co inhabit I. E. Aren't married cohabit find it easier to acquire each other's wealth upon death, for example. And there are other issues around this misnomer of the common law wife or husband where you simply don't have the same rights. So I simply making the point that I think marriage has lots of romantic downsides because if you look at what makes us attractive to each other on many levels, from fantasy to excitement, novelty, etc, it. Marriage is very counterintuitive. So it's, you know, that idea of date night or keeping a marriage fresh. And I was merely making the point. The old. It's a bit of a fable that was always kicking around in my family. If you put a peanut in a jar every time you have sex before you get married, then after you get married, if you take a peanut out of the jar every time you have sex, you will never empty the jar.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why a peanut?

[Ian Dale]

Well, it could be a coin or a sweetie. I mean it was just so happened and this is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is an old family tradition of yours?

[Ian Dale]

No, it's not family tradition. It's just. It's one of those things my dad said. I don't know what he. The point he was trying to make, it was Kind of joking, you know, and I just remembered it. And when you're on those live telly shows, sometimes you have to say something because, you know, it's your job. And I didn't have anything better.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Three men.

[Ian Dale]

No, Storm's a woman.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Last time she was a presenter. And who were these men? I didn't know any of them.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you do. The black farmer and Alexis Coleman. You do know both?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know.

[Ian Dale]

Well, obviously they didn't register for you, but you know them. And they laughed. They didn't really hear what I was saying, which is our sex drive and our appeal to each other sexually and the appetite for that and the space we have for that when we're no longer courting, but we're, you know, finding a place for our child in school. Taking out the bins, putting our mother in a care home. Where do you package sex in that? I mean, I won't get personally in, but how often do you have sex with John these days?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, should we move on?

[Ian Dale]

I rest my case. Your peanut jar is full, I suspect after how many years of marriage?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, my God, there you are.

[Ian Dale]

We were meant to be talking about questions.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We are. This is one from William Rose, who's a student at St Ambrose College in Altrincham. He says, Dear Mr. Dale, I'm writing on behalf of. This isn't actually necessarily related to the podcast, I don't think, but it's just. Well, see what you think. I'm writing on behalf of the A level history students of St Ambrose, firstly to say thank you for your historical work, particularly your engaging writing on the Prime Minister's. He doesn't seem to realise that somebody else wrote all the essays, but anyway, I did write one, much of which has been absolutely central to our education and the pursuit of our interests. We would also like to make you aware of our teacher, Mr. Bancroft, who is the most hard working and dedicated person that any of us have ever met. Reflecting on our time at school, he has not only relentlessly supported us, but brought such a delightful, joyous and unyielding passion to the study of history that has imbued us with a love for historical study alongside study. Whenever your work appears, we personify you, humorously reciting and adapting your quotes, and can construct parallels to your arguments about our group, and so on. Therefore, as a gift to him before we leave school this Thursday, we were wondering if you might respond to this email with even just a sentence or two to Mr. Bancroft, perhaps with some humorous reference to British history, so that we may present it to him as a historical keepsake. Isn't that beautiful?

[Ian Dale]

It's lovely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which leads me to ask you, did you have a particular history teacher that really inspired you?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, Brian Rayne. He obviously, because he was restricted by the curriculum, which bangs on and on about how horrible Germany is just to make us suitably anti European when we come of voting age. He oversaw the rise of Nazism, which I always found. I remember that's on. I first was aware of anti Semitism growing up in the Highlands of Scotland. It wasn't, you know, hugely forefronted when we were children at that time. And I remember asking in class, but I don't understand, why were people anti Semitic? Like, why trying to understand racism when you've not grown up in this little Highland village, It was really difficult to get your head around something like that. And I remember Brian Raines saying, oh, well, it's like peeling away the layers of an onion to find out where it began. I don't remember any more greater than. I don't know if he's necessarily a great thinker, but I remember going away feeling wholly discontent with, you know, what had caused this. Actually, funny enough, a lot of my PhD helps shed some light on the particular timing of that wave of anti Semitism Pre World War II in Germany. But not only Germany, the whole kind of emerging from the First World War. The idea, this conspiracy theory around, you know, sort of Jewish finance and. And which actually, given that so many Jews at that time were impoverished, trapped in Eastern Europe, was such a misrepresentation.

[Tessa Dunlop]

See, I learned about that from the TV series called Holocaust in 19. I think it was 1978. It was a sort of, I don't know, 12 part, quite schmaltzy, soapy type thing. And it followed the. I was gonna say fortunes, but the opposite of fortunes of two Jewish families. And it was quite an emotional thing. And I remember thinking at the time, but why did people hate the Jews? And I still can't really answer that question with any degree of logicality, but. And I remember asking my history teachers about it and we were talking. We did do, obviously, the causes of the Second World War, because you always did at a level in that period. But Yeah, I had Mr. Cross and Mr. Wills and they were. They were just brilliant. And I sort of really regret now not studying history at university.

[Ian Dale]

Next question.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You might like this one.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, God, is it being horrible about me?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It is, yes.

[Ian Dale]

I'm sure some of the listeners will love it. It astonishes me how many people who Hate me. Listen, to be honest, I'm not forcing them to listen.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I have that with my. With my radio show the whole time.

[Ian Dale]

Weird, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Brian, I don't know how you pronounce this. Sieg or siege. Hi, Ian. And the Doctor. You see that? That's an indication of how it's going to go. She is hopeless.

[Ian Dale]

Thanks for that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Brian, that comment about the old bike Camilla being recycled. Did you really say that? I don't remember you saying that. I mean, you must have done, because otherwise he wouldn't have wrote it.

[Ian Dale]

I think I did in an interview for tmz. TMZ last week. Maybe he's. He's also following me on Instagram. That means. Oh, I'm flattered.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, that comment about the old bike Camilla being recycled is the death knell of my support or collaboration from the team in the Buckingham palace office. Very ill judged. RAW correspondent of any sort. She is not. But a step to forward in that she's not used the MF expletive. What's the MF expletive?

[Ian Dale]

Oh, that's a nice attractive sniff.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm sure our listeners really enjoyed that. I'm getting a cold. There is no constituency in England that has even 1% Romanian voters. Campaigning for a Romanian GCSE is doomed to failure. The expense of training teachers, devising a syllabus, deciding on a couple of.

[Ian Dale]

He's totally missed the point.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hang on. Deciding on a couple of fixed books in Romanian to read, producing an English Romanian dictionary. I'm sure there is one.

[Ian Dale]

He's missed the point.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And a grammar. Let me finish first. And a grammar textbook, plus teaching materials and exam marking style for so few students would ever work. Also, please note that despite Brexit, English is still the working language of the eu. So Romanians, forget your colloquial little language and be proficient in the foremost language in the world. English question. Will Trump get a ceasefire at a peace deal before the midterms?

[Ian Dale]

I've just got to push back here. Brainless Brian. I'm not suggesting for one minute that Romanian is taught in English schools. Heaven forefend. No. Merely that 20 foreign languages are accorded the status and value of a GCSE at that level. And yet the second most spoken foreign language in our country, Romanian, is not. You can do biblical and modern Hebrew. You can do Punjabi, Urdu, Polish, Portuguese, Greek, Japanese. Do I need to labour the point, Brian, for it to get through your dense skull that we are not asking for it to be taught? Merely that Romanians are able to lean into their culture at home and demonstrate their proficiency academically. Because actually having a Latin language is a gateway to other Latin languages. Caveat. I regret mentioning your dense skull. I'm sure you're a charming person and you've just made a mistake. I take that rather lowering the tone of my otherwise, I thought, cohesive response.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I agree with you. Although he does have a little point where it would be a cost, wouldn't it?

[Ian Dale]

It would not ask. Now this is very interesting. It would not be a cost because schools or parents pay to take an exam. So if I do a GCSE in my own time, my daughter, for example, is doing a Spanish as this year outside the standard school curriculum. The school have ordered in the exam and they will adjudicate it. But as a parent I have paid for the exam.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, okay. This is from Neil, who says, I've seen that Scotland, Wales and two thirds of English local elections will not have overnight counts on Thursday. Have we always had overnight counts in the past? Is a daytime count the future for general elections? Also, will this affect how the results are perceived over the course of Friday and beyond? You've hit on a hobby horse of mine here because it's only in, I would say the last 10, 15, maybe 20 years that counts have been delayed until the following day. Now, I'm wholly against this for one. Well, for two reasons. One, I think there's a lot of excitement overnight about counting and I miss that when you don't have it. But that's not a real reason to not have it. The second one is an old fashioned concept called the security of the ballot, because the longer a ballot box remains unopened, the more possible it is. And I'm not suggesting this is a widespread thing, but the more possibilities to access ballot boxes tamper with them. So I think that as soon as the polling station closes, the ballot box should go to the count and be opened and counted, not wait for 12 hours or however long it is before they start on the Friday. You're right though, in these local elections. Well, the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Parliament elections, they're all starting on the Friday. In Wales's case, they may not finish until the Saturday because it's a new electoral system and they're bound to be teething problems in English local councils. Of the 130 councils being going to the polls on Thursday, only 30 of them are being counted overnight. I think that's a crying shame and a disgrace.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's a slight storm in a teacup, but you are. What's a septologist? What's the person who.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Who loves sexologists?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, one of those. And it's your hobby horse. It's a bit like somebody getting excited over volleyball. Yeah, it's a side.

[Tessa Dunlop]

People should want to be excited about elections and election counts.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's quite hard to get excited about certain local elections, Ian. I'm just going to be honest.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not this year. I mean, this year is going to be absolutely fascinating because we. We are now in six or even seven party politics in different parts of the country.

[Ian Dale]

I agree, I agree. But some local elections, they're not as exciting as others. Oh, and I've also got to contest Brian's point. Most Romanians, and there's over a million who have settled and semi settled status are able to vote in local elections. So he's wrong on that statistic too.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's very true. Right. Kate says. I'm listening to Where Politics Meets another Near miss and I'm deeply moved by your opening reflections on the end of life. So much so that I've stopped to send this email without mulling it over that much. I'm a professor of sociology at the University of Bath who has worked on death and dying for 20 years, where I led a research centre called the Centre for Death and Society. Your very powerful observations on the inequalities of dying were spot on and reflects some of my own frustrations with often how so much political airtime is given to assisted dying and palliative care. Both are worthy issues, but so many people will never even qualify for them because death is closer on their horizon than the affluent middle classes. I don't have a question for the pod, but wanted to applaud you for being so publicly open about your own recent experiences. And Ian, if you ever want to cover this on your your show, I'd be happy to talk through the issues with a producer or else you. Or point you to academic colleagues who would have something to contribute. I once asked you on for the Many about your views on funeral director regulation. So beyond inequality. There is a lot to say in this space which rarely gets the depth of coverage it warrants. I'm an avid listener of your POD and love your debates. I always come away having learned the something. Thank you for all you do. Well, that's a nice one, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

That's really nice. Don't think we deserve that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Matthew Casey said. I still don't understand this. Maybe you can enlighten me. I'm surprised this passed you by, but Back in February, when all this Mandelson stuff was kicking off, the American ambassador hosted a visit from one George Osborne and posted a picture of it on

[Ian Dale]

X. Yeah, but wasn't George Osborne touted as being a potential ambassador and they plumped for Mandelson in the end the of anyway.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but by that time man was already an ambassador, so. I don't really understand, Matthew, what you're getting out there.

[Ian Dale]

Is George Osman a bit homeless at the moment?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No. He's got so many jobs.

[Ian Dale]

Has he? What does he do? Except for that podcast, Black Rock.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's now head of the Britain's biggest AI company.

[Ian Dale]

God, it's revolting how these people just leave government, they it up and then they leave and then they get a big job. I've got my life very wrong. Anyway, moving on. Next question, please. I'm enjoying the questions.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Nikita says. Dear Tessa and Ian, I've been a listener to the pod since 2018, but this is my first time asking a question. I'm standing for local elections for the first time this year. I was surprised to find that in the entire application and selection process, I didn't need to have my identity checked at any point. It seemed. Seems strange that the voters need to show more ID than the person they're voting for. Isn't this evidence that voter ID is a voter suppression tool? I don't really see that that follows. But you're right, you don't actually have to show any ID to stand. I mean, I think you possibly. Some political parties might well say, as part of the vetting process, that they need to know who they're dealing with. But to actually stand as a candidate, all you need, I think, are 10 nominations from 10 other people on the electoral roll.

[Ian Dale]

Do you need to be even a British citizen? I don't think you do. You can be a foreign national and stand.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You have to be eligible to vote in local elections.

[Ian Dale]

So you don't have to be eligible to vote in national elections to stand in a local election. Quite a lot of Romanians are standing in the local elections, for example.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but they couldn't stand in a general election.

[Ian Dale]

No, but we're talking about local elections. Just going to break up your wonderful dulcet tones with observation from the pod, from Claire Fox.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not the Claire Fox, no, but one

[Ian Dale]

infinitely younger and better looking, it must be said.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, see this, this woman, Tessa Dunlop.

[Ian Dale]

Cut that bit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She. She sort of pretends she's part of the sisterhood.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's the woman.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And then makes a disparaging Comment about a peer of the realm.

[Ian Dale]

Well, she's 20, this woman, so of course she's in the first flush of youth all.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Doesn't even say she's any better looking.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think we agree that aesthetics are slightly tied to. To age, aren't they? I mean, let's not pretend we look as good as we want. Steady. And anyway, back to you, Claire Fox.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Actually, I think you do.

[Ian Dale]

You don't know. You never knew me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She actually seen pictures.

[Ian Dale]

I just wanted to say, I did the London Marathon last week. See, she works at her look. That was my added bit. She writes. Your podcasts have got me through my long runs whilst training. Your argument moments are very entertaining. I like that. It's not a question.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that it?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, it's just. I just thought, you know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Thank you, Claire.

[Ian Dale]

I went on the troll podcast last week.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, yeah?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I talked about you. Well, they brought you up and I just said.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, what did they say? Gemma Forte likes me. Yeah, I don't think Marina does.

[Ian Dale]

No, I said that you actually complimented both of them and you said how well Marina Porcas had done on social media. Like she. She's basically built her brand on social medias and we talked about the entitlement of the second generation. She's second generation Italian. I'd seen this incredible kind of vavoom from the second generation Romanian teenagers.

[Tessa Dunlop]

See, if I was her and I'd started out on social media, I would have adopted an Italian surname. Marina.

[Ian Dale]

No, I think she does. All right. She is. And then we talked about how men earn more money in broadcasting and I might have mentioned you anyway.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What do you mean you mentioned me there?

[Ian Dale]

Back to your little bits and bobs.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, come on.

[Ian Dale]

No, we were talking about the inequalities of broadcasting, but I get the same

[Tessa Dunlop]

for this podcast that you do.

[Ian Dale]

I know. And I said, I often joke with Ian that he earns 10 times more than me. I said, except it's not a joke, it's true.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, God, I'm gonna have to listen to that podcast now, aren't I? Just to see what you. What calumnies.

[Ian Dale]

You've said one would only for them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I was on RTE Radio on Saturday doing. Talking about leadership.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, well, you'd have done well there.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I enjoyed it, actually.

[Ian Dale]

You know, I think now that you've.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm trying to break the Irish market,

[Ian Dale]

now that you've thinned down a bit, I think you look almost a bit more intellectual.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And that's. Isn't that weird? Is that Weightist of me to think that you thinner is a more intellectual version of. Of you fatter. What's that? What does that say about my.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it's a bit lookist, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

It's a bit. Yeah, that. I should think you look more intelligent anyway. But back to do you know, questions.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I can feel bones under my man boobs. In fact, I don't have any man boobs.

[Ian Dale]

And then I think, because it's a bank holiday, we can rap.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I don't think you want another one, do you? Not from Brian, because there was another

[Ian Dale]

one because Ian is feeling his non existent man boobs and it's all getting a little bit weird. Oh, but you can talk about my book coming out.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Wait. Yeah. Give it him. Give it here.

[Ian Dale]

It's a new cover.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's a new cover.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, it's much better.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That is a brilliant cover.

[Ian Dale]

I know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It hasn't got a monument on it, though.

[Ian Dale]

Thank you. Because I'm not flogging the monument. Bit of the book, because it was always about the stories.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Should you. It's. It's a very. It's a very nicely shaped book.

[Ian Dale]

You. It's a rectangle, Ian.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I can't see how much it costs. How much is it?

[Ian Dale]

10.99, but I think you can get it a bit discounted.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And it's by Tessa Dunlop. It's called Lest We Forget. A Hundred Stories of Love, Loss and Heroism.

[Ian Dale]

And there's a lot of great endorsements on it. So many. No, you got bumped off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, my God. Well, you can have the fucking dot back then.

[Ian Dale]

And Elena saw it, who's seven? And she went, that's really inappropriate on that cover because there's two people kissing on it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Younger generations are so prudish, aren't they?

[Ian Dale]

Even at seven. She's censored.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But that's how they are nowadays, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Disgraceful.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, what have we done?

[Ian Dale]

I don't know. Can I hit the bottle now? I think it's time to wrap. I've not had a bank Holy Monday drink ever since March.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've got to do my show. You know, I don't normally work bank holidays, but I thought I ought to because it's election week, which we haven't talked about at all, have we?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think we did because we did a lot around reform and Zach Polanski and we've touched on it and why people are going to the fringes and why it's about the collection.

[Tessa Dunlop]

If you want to know my thoughts on what Might happen on Thursday. Just go to my sub stack.

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Or my website, iandale.com where you can also see lots of events that I'm speaking at. And now you've got to let me do this very quickly. Saturday, Tunbridge Wells. I'm being interviewed by my nemesis, Mike Martin. He's the reason I'm not an mp. So that should be fun. So that's this Saturday.

[Ian Dale]

Brilliant. And I should add this cheese. No, this Wednesday, I'm in Saffron Walden.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Are you my hometown?

[Ian Dale]

I am.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What are you doing there?

[Ian Dale]

Talking.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Where?

[Ian Dale]

A Maddingley Hall. Mad Dingley Hall.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's nowhere near Suffran. We need to have a little discussion about this because they're telling you the wrong thing, I think.

[Ian Dale]

Okay.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, should you be in Saffron Walden? When's it next Wednesday.

[Ian Dale]

This Wednesday coming up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right.

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Lucky you.

[Ian Dale]

I know I've got a lot to do because I've got a 2,000 word essay to hand into Engelsburg ideas by tomorrow. On what Marie, the original strong woman and what Trump can learn from her.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, you shouldn't do that though, because you'd say that to. When the book comes out, they're paying me.

[Ian Dale]

Anyone who pays me. Ian. Anyone who pays me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Guys, they pay me good money.

[Ian Dale]

They're paying me almost the same as my book advance. No, fuck off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And no, they're not.

[Ian Dale]

Can we. Can we close this pod? Because I've just sworn. Corey, just let me get out of here. Help. I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. Ladies and gentlemen, we love you and your attention. Thank you for supporting us.

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