122. Harborne Free

Summary

Podcast Summary: Where Politics Meets History – Episode 122 "Harborne Free"

Date: May 8, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale (broadcaster) & Dr. Tessa Dunlop (historian)

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Episode Overview

In this lively and sharp-witted episode, Iain Dale and Dr. Tessa Dunlop dissect the headline news of the week through insightful historical parallels. The main focus is on the unraveling of Labour’s historic dominance in Wales, set against the broader turmoil of the UK’s evolving political landscape, the rise of Plaid Cymru, and the wider trend of fragmentation across European politics. The episode also features debates on political standards (spotlighting Nigel Farage), modern populism's echoes of the past, and lighter forays into public statues and podcast narcissism.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

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1. Labour’s Collapse in Wales: Historical Context & Modern Shocks

[00:35; 11:14; 17:54; 18:00; 28:27; 33:19]

• Historical Bond: Tessa details how Labour’s relationship with Wales began in the early 20th century, overtaking the Liberals in 1922 and holding dominance ever since.

  “Wales and Labour have been synonymous... one and the same thing, joined at the hip, seemingly for over 100 years.” – Tessa [01:40]

• Current Upheaval: With Labour’s third-place showing in Wales (predicted as the recording was just before final results), Iain and Tessa probe reasons for voters breaking away and the rise of Plaid Cymru and Reform UK:

  “From a democratic point of view, it’s great because it shows that in the end the people clock on and they think, no, we're being taken for a ride here…so we’ll go somewhere else.” – Iain [00:35, 33:39]

• Reasons for Change:
  • Disaffection due to cost-of-living crises and Labour’s perceived disconnect from its roots
  • Plaid Cymru’s collective ethos filling Labour’s old role for working people
  • Influence (or lack thereof) of nationalism, with Plaid “usurping” Reform as the protest home for disillusioned left-wing Labour voters [30:40]
• Parallel with Scotland: Voters are teaching Labour the lesson it failed to learn after losing Glasgow – no party has a perpetual monopoly.

2. Proportional Representation & the Future of Britain’s Voting System

[11:14; 12:15; 31:35]

• Iain argues the two-party system is “bust probably for good,” positing PR could become a post-election reality if multi-party competition persists:

  “Even I, as a fan of first past the post, would have to say ... something’s got to change here.” [11:34]

• Tessa questions whether the system will realign or truly break, but both foresee change if governments are elected on low popular votes.
• Discussion of hybrid alternatives like Germany or the Scottish list system, which Tessa describes as “complicated.” [12:15; 13:15]

3. Mining Labour’s Past: Wales, World Wars, and Strikes

[18:54; 20:56; 24:15; 26:08]

• WWI & Lloyd George: Lloyd George’s unique path as a collectivist Liberal PM, his role in mobilizing Welsh miners, and managing labor militancy.

  “Lloyd George was never a Gladstonian liberal, he was much more a collectivist ... if you look at the welfare reforms he brought in...” – Iain [22:00]

• Labour’s tactical ambiguity during WWI: Participating in government, but distancing from war responsibility, setting up postwar legitimacy. [26:08]
• The miners’ economic power during war, rapid postwar collapse, and how it catalyzed Labour’s enduring industrial vote in Wales.

4. Populism & the New European Political Landscape

[20:56–22:00; 31:35]

• Wales mirrors a European shift: coalition politics, the fragility of establishment parties, and the unpredictable fallout of populism (France, Romania, Germany).
• “Febrile” political context with reform, protest votes, cross-border influences.

5. Plaid Cymru: Protest Party to Government

[28:27–32:34]

• History: Founded 1925 as Labour abandoned home rule; it took decades for Plaid to gain ground; now surging.
• Independence? Contrasted with SNP — for Plaid, support isn’t tied to independence, but to being a home for left-leaning protest voters [30:40].
• Coalition questions: Plaid may need to work with Labour or stand alone, with the Greens and Lib Dems providing little traction.

6. Standards in Public Life: The Farage & Political Donations Debate

[34:44; 39:44; 41:00]

• Tessa rails against Nigel Farage for not declaring a multi-million-pound donation, comparing media scrutiny to cases like Angela Rayner’s stamp duty.

  “I just think we do hold some politicians to standards higher…” – Tessa [40:46]

• Iain contends that media have repeatedly addressed Farage’s case and that security concerns were legitimate:

  “When he actually took the money, he wasn’t an MP…so there was nothing to register at that point.” – Iain [40:21] “I’m taking him at face value because I know the kind of security threats he’s had.” [41:03]

• Tessa flags the issue of “bitcoin millionaire” donors and accountability gaps when money comes from outside the UK but Iain points out the donor, Christopher Harborne, is a British citizen. [44:56]
• Spirited back-and-forth on double standards between Farage and establishment politicians and the cognitive dissonance of their public anti-establishment stance:

  “The candidate that is more likely to ape…Maga movement tactics is Farage, the so-called anti-establishment player also, given his trading background and history.” – Tessa [46:06]

7. Statue Debates, Banksy, and Cultural Symbolism

[02:07; 55:37; 58:04]

• Tessa’s book on statues gets a nod, segueing into discussion of the social meaning of statues (including Banksy’s latest and IDF incidents abroad):

  “Sometimes [Banksy] manages to hit on the zeitgeist ... drawing attention to the inanimate objects that litter our streets.” – Tessa [55:53]

• The debate revolves around symbolism, identity, and how old forms (statues) remain central in spite of new media.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Labour's predicament:

  "When you've become so untethered from your origin story, the question is where are you going?" – Tessa [33:19]

• On the democratic process:

  "It shows that … in the end the people clock on and they think … we're being taken for a ride here, we're being taken for granted, so we'll go somewhere else." – Iain [33:39]

• On podcast narcissism:

  "Ian has the power in this relationship. A lot of people say, why do you compromise your feminist ideals by platforming yourself alongside that conservative pale male stale?" – Tessa [14:17] "We possibly do bicker like an old married couple, but … it's better than agreeing all the time." – Iain [49:04]

• On holding public figures accountable:

  "What other politician do you take at face value, Ian?” – Tessa [42:11]

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Other Segments & Light Interludes

• Personal stories:
  • Tessa’s campaign to support her brother in Scottish elections, and the perils of podcast editing – [04:11–06:55]
• Lifestyle as Politics:
  • Alcohol in airports, Ryanair tales, and class experiences on holidays – [08:07–10:31]
• Statue chat & book plugs:
  • Interwoven throughout, with Tessa’s latest book and a playful “tithe” for listeners (buying her book) [35:41–36:50]

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Listener Feedback & Q&A

[47:59–53:08]

• Feedback on the focus and bickering of the podcast, with the hosts receiving both criticism and praise—prompting meta-reflection on tone and format.

  “It's easy to say disagreement is bickering. ... It's better than agreeing all the time.” – Iain [49:04]

• Recommendations from Tessa and Iain for under-the-radar museums and historical sites, with Perth Museum and Bucharest’s National History Museum making the list.

• Tessa reads deeply moving entries from listeners hoping for book dedications, leading to a heartfelt exchange:

  "I can't choose between those four [stories]. So…we send four out." – Iain [63:09]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:35] Labour’s collapse in Wales, origins, and political shock
• [11:14] Two-party system’s “end” – PR debate
• [18:54] Welsh Labour history, WWI context, miners’ influence
• [28:27] The rise of Plaid Cymru, party history, coalition questions
• [34:44] Standards in public life: Farage, political donations, media scrutiny
• [39:44] Accountability for politicians, Farage’s security, and comparisons
• [55:30] Statues, Banksy, cultural symbolism
• [47:59] Listener Q&A and show meta-reflection
• [60:00] Book dedications for moving wartime stories

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Tone & Style

The episode is conversational, irreverent, and by turns earnest and cheeky. The hosts spar with good nature, blend personal anecdotes with sharp historical analysis, and aren’t shy about promoting their work or teasing each other. Listener feedback is taken seriously but with wit and self-deprecation.

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Conclusion

This episode crystallizes the podcast’s format: using the lessons and ironies of history to deepen and challenge our understanding of the present. It’s especially valuable for anyone curious about the roots and future of Wales' political scene, the cycles of political change, and the personal stories beneath the headlines.

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Transcript

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[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

This is a global player original podcast.

[Ian Dale]

From a democratic point of view, it's great because it shows that in the end, the people clock on and they think, no, we're being taken for a ride here, we're being taken for granted, so we'll go somewhere else. When he actually took the money, he wasn't an mp, so there was nothing to register at that point.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Right. But it's a bit like stamp duty and Angela Rayner. I just think we do hold some politicians to standards higher.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, this whole thought about the media has ignored this. I mean, it's in every. Every single day it's being talked about.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I'm sorry, when it comes to Farage, I'm not for turning

[Ian Dale]

Where Politics Meets History with Tessa Dunlop and Ian Dale. What are we talking about in the pod today?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

We're going to do the most successful Labour relationship in the history of the

[Ian Dale]

movement, which yesterday was shattered. Well, we think it was because we're recording this rather awkwardly on Thursday afternoon before we know any of the results. But we are assuming that Labour will have gone into third place in Wales, aren't we?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And what's extraordinary is this precedent that it's unravelled or will have unravelled. So I looked into the genesis of the Labour movement, why it was so strong, what happened in World War I, and why Wales and Labour have been synonymous. I mean, one and the same thing, joined at the hip, seemingly for over 100 years, almost. And what it means that that probably no longer the case.

[Ian Dale]

What else are we talking about?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Briefly, on statues? We're going to have a little look.

[Ian Dale]

Do you know, somebody's written a book on statues, haven't they?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I think it might just be out in floppy version. Not the statues. Floppy statues don't work. Although Banksy's is only temporary. You know that, don't you? Yes. Her name is Tessa Dunlop. I talk about her with reverence and therefore in the third person. But it's actually myself that I'm referring to. You've got to decide.

[Ian Dale]

A couple of people we've Had a very nasty email from somebody who's accusing us both of being ultra narcissists.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I normally think that I. Perhaps I do more to control your narcissism, because it makes me embarrassed, because I realize that I am prone to that tendency as well. Whereas I think you allow me to narcissistically unravel because, you know, then it gives you a free reign to do the exact same.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, my God. Dare I say that's the worst justification for it I've ever heard.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, you've got to select from a couple of people who've written in saying they want a book dedication, which is the most moving. So that's an invidious task I'm placing in front of you. I also wanted to talk about who's winning the war, because it's, you know, a big contest between Iran and America. Trump keeps on saying that they're desperate for a deal, the Iranians, but it's nowhere to be seen. And so I started taking some notes today because I really. There's a sort of rizzler paper between where we're at if we end up with a successful deal, between that and what Obama drew up in 2015, which I seem to remember Trump said was the worst deal ever known in the history of mankind. He only deals in mankind, by the way, not womankind.

[Ian Dale]

Is womankind even a word?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No, I shouldn't say mankind. I don't like the expression. It should be humankind or people. History of the world.

[Ian Dale]

Wokey, wokey, wokey, Neutral.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And then I had a big job in terms of familial reparations and.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, this is hilarious. Because what you won't have heard, ladies and gentlemen, is in the last. Last episode, we spoke about the Scottish elections and the fact that Tessa's brother is. And was standing in them. And Corey cut the whole section out, which he was very disgruntled at.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, the point is that Duncan said, you're no good, you're not loyal. Blood isn't thicker than water. You've done nothing to put me in the pod. The only time you mentioned me, you were equivocal about whether you would vote

[Ian Dale]

for me, which is true.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And so I went out of my way last week, didn't I, and laid my neck on the line and said, yeah, he's a good lad. And I would. If I was in the south of Scotland, I would vote under the Liberal Democrat and twiddle for my little brother and beyond. Because it's very complicated, the list thing up there. Unless you're actually in the booth ticking away and have it in front of you. And I, I was quite thrilled with myself. And the next morning I got a text going, you're cancelled. I was like, what did I do wrong? And of course I. In fact, Corey was to blame. He cut the whole thing lot out.

[Ian Dale]

Well, he did have justification.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

What was the justification?

[Ian Dale]

Because, and I think we did actually discuss this on the pod, that as a news presenter, I am not allowed to say who I'm going to vote for now that's on the radio. What I was. Wasn't sure about was if that applies to podcasts too. But. But Tessa, you are a news presenter on this podcast. So I think Corey, I'll say, probably rightly decided to cut it out just to be on the safe side.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Very spineless. I mean, or you could say Corey. I mean, I don't want to accuse Corey of being spineless, but I just have. So there we are. Corey, thanks. That's my pleasure. Oh, God. It's the voice of God, literally. He does ultimately wield the power in the pod. But the thing is, it presupposes that Hyhejans listen. And I always take it for granted that only our dear friends.

[Ian Dale]

No, you see, that's why you're wrong.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

You.

[Ian Dale]

You never know who's listening. I mean, quite important people listen to this pod and you don't know it.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, that's why it makes it a good listen. Because I feel like I'm just talking to Auntie Mabel and my little brother. But as my little brother didn't get

[Ian Dale]

the servant, I had an Auntie Mabel. No, she was from Belfast.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I have an Auntie Sally, to be sure, and she's slipped a bit recently and I owe her a visit, but she's just on my long list of conscience, which is always exhausting. Anyway, the bottom line is the reason I was late today, I decided I better make it up to Duncan and record an Instagram post about him, hoping that it'll reach the vast swathes of Scottish voters from my South London hood. So I recorded it and then to make it into a story that might get a few more likes, I doubled it up with who I was actually voting for in South London. So I went from South Scotland to south London in 1 62nd post, and that left him even more disgruntled because basically it placed the Liberal Democrats under the same banner as Labor. I'm not a natural labor voter, but Helen Hayes did turn up to my

[Ian Dale]

Romanian event and that's. That's the reason you voted labor the last time, she's not even on the

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

ballot paper, but yeah, but it's her local patch, isn't it? The last time I spot my ballot paper, actually, because I was so angry with what Labour had done to our primary school. So I felt to make up for that, I would compensate with voting Labour. In fact, they're really up against it. Labour versus Greens in what is a historically phenomenal Labour stronghold. I'm living in the Brixton area.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, but Brixton has become very gentrified in the last 10 or 15 years, hasn't it? And so you've got this whole new population which I think is probably more inclined to vote Green.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. I did speak to a couple of the mums outside the school who were off to vote Green, who historically would have, I think, voted Liberal or Labour, probably. And I did express mild surprise and it made me feel a bit mumsy and definitely older than them, which, by the way, I am. And they were like, what have you got against Zach? And I thought, what do I have against Zach? Has Ian infiltrated my brain a bit? Like, you've turned Corey before his time into a Conservative. Wet. Has Ian removed my radicalism?

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's twice we've thrown Corey under the bus today. Shall I make it? Should I make it a hat trick?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, go on.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Yesterday we did an hour on drinking at airports.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

And Michael o', Leary, the head of Ryanair, he thinks that it's outrageous that people can buy drinks at five o' clock in the morning before they get on a plane. And I mean, there is a slight point about that because I didn't know that licensing laws don't apply to airports. So he has to divert one of his planes every day, apparently because of boozed up Brits. So we had a whole debate about that. And then I suddenly remembered, of course, that young Cosa had just been on a stag do to Prague where he, rather mistakenly, from his point of view, actually told me that he did have a pint of beer at some ungodly hour. How early was it, Corey?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

About 10:00am 10:00am but that's the youth, isn't it? But my point with the likes of Michael o' Leary is they're hypocritical because they also serve alcohol on their airplanes at all hours.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but apparent they only sell two drinks per person, those. Then someone texted in the course and said, well, that's bollocks. I'm sitting opposite someone who had six beers and. No, three beers and Three whiskeys.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Absolute bollocks. What they probably want to say is caveat. We only serve two drinks to the people who were already pissed. I mean, I've never known a strict limit on what I can drink on an airplane. Not that I normally go over 2, but I've often sat next to people who are like getting well tanked up before they touch down in the Costa.

[Ian Dale]

I've never experienced anything like that on a plane. I have. So as I told you, it must be if you're a passenger sitting next to a group of lads going off to sort of Magaluf or something and they've all been in weather spoons since 5:00am I mean, that was a horrible journey to undergo, isn't it?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

It's the lose that get really violent. They become like a urinal craft loo. Yeah. They're small and challenging. But I've got to say, Ian, it's the reason why it's important I'm not too successful and don't leave my moderate financial tethers behind because whenever you say I've never had that experience. Experience, I think. Ian, when did you last fly Ryanair to Magaluf?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I've never been to Magaluf, but I've flown Ryanair a couple of times at Easyjet. Many times.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

A couple? Yeah. But I bet you don't go height season, peak stag do event.

[Ian Dale]

I go. I've been. I've flown to Malaga on at least six occasions. Actually. The last time it was on EasyJet, but before that it was on Norwegian Airlines.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

The point is, I don't think you expose yourself.

[Ian Dale]

I don't expose myself on the plane. Have you ever wanted to join the Mile High Club?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No. Is that when you have sex on an airplane? No, but I have felt seriously turned on on an airplane before. But I don't really want to go there because I don't do smart, actually.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, go on, just this once.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No, I'm not doing smart at the top. It's a very important. This is a historic moment. I feel we're caught in the crosshairs of history because at the moment people are rolling out to their polling stations and I've got to say, people looked keener and more up for voting today than I've seen them look at a local election for a very long time. That might be the only sil. Silver lining of this new plural political landscape.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, and. And whatever has happened overnight and the results will be coming in during Friday. Whatever happens. I think that the two party system is now bust probably for good.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I don't think it's bust for good.

[Ian Dale]

Really. How will it come back?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I think it might realign, but I think first past the post doesn't make much space.

[Ian Dale]

No, but that's my point. If you've got five, six, possibly seven parties competing for votes in the end, if our next government, let's for argument's sake, say it's a reformed government elected on 24% of the vote, I mean, even I, as a fan of first past the post, would have to say that, look, something's got to change here. So I think that proportional representation is something that would go up the political agenda. I think after the next election, it's more than likely the voting system will be changed to some degree. Now, it may not be full proportionate representation. It could be the sort of German system, which is a hybrid, or the

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Scottish system my little brother's being elected on.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it could be.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, he's a list candidate as well as a local candidate. It's very confusing.

[Ian Dale]

It is confusing and that's why I don't really want it to happen, because I think the constituency link is actually really important. But I think it's almost inevitable if the current trends continue.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Just as I've got my head around the constituency link, as I'm wielding the sword getting all these heavily populated Romanian constituent MPs to rock up and engage Mark Seward, he's getting, getting my latest podium place. He's phenomenal. He is an MP in Leeds for Labor. He's followed through. He's emailed me Nigel Huddleston I quite like too. He's shadow Culture Secretary for Sport. And the other one, what is it? Media, Media, culture, choir boys. But I thought he was going to follow through and say, how can I deliver? Will I push Bridget for you? Etc? And he just said, could you send me the photos, please? Then when I looked at them, the only ones I could find of him was talking with a very eager grin on his face to two extraordinarily attract year old Romanian girls.

[Ian Dale]

Well, you put on Twitter this morning the little video that I did promoting your book. You said, where would I be without Ian Dale in my life? A little bit of me teared up at that point.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Did it?

[Ian Dale]

But no more so than when somebody called Adrian Hilton, who used to do a brilliant blog called Archbishop Cranmer back in the day, he then, quote, tweeted your tweet and he said this, and this is going to make you sort of accuse me of being narcissistic.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I was about to say when we warned off this.

[Ian Dale]

Look, I get so much shit on Twitter. When I get a nice one, I'm going to make the most of it. He says, not only your life. Ian Dale makes the world a better place, not least because he makes the murky business of politics so much more engaging, if not pleasurable. It's a shame he wasn't selected for Bracknell in 2009, because he'd have made the House of Commons a better place, too.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Do you see last week's eulogy about my little brother got cut? But I bet Corey does not cut that.

[Ian Dale]

No, because he knows what's on, what's good for him, basically. Does I, Corey?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Ian has the power in this relationship. A lot of people say, why do you compromise your feminist ideals by platforming yourself alongside that conservative pale male stale? I'm just countering.

[Ian Dale]

I'm not particularly pale, actually. I'm a bit dusky.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

We're not going to go back down the swarthy route, are we? For crying out loud.

[Ian Dale]

By the way, did you know that there's a new book on feminism and. The queen of the British monarchs, Catherine Mayer, do you know her? Yes, she's. This is coming out in June. I'm going to interview about it. Divide and Rule. Discover the real lives of royal women, past and present, with this groundbreaking feminist analysis of the British monarchy.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But it won't be.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, maybe that's the book you should have written.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, thanks. See, and I've got other books that I'm writing. I know it's not. That's not a should of. Could have. She's written it. Good for her. I'm looking forward to reading it. Although I always find the feminist thesis, when it intersects ideas of British royalty, comes up against a bit of a brick wall. There are counter examples, of course, Victoria and Elizabeth, because they were regnant monarchs, they reigned in their own right. But in some respects, they were really successful at precisely the point when they'd ceded political power, the monarch had ceded political power, and it was much easier, I think, for a female monarch like Victoria to become this benign, matriarchal symbol for the nation than it would have been for her to rule as a political power. I think if you look back at the history of women politically wielding power, it's been a far rockier path. And not just Bloody Mary, by the way, and Elizabeth, we know, but one of the reasons why Elizabeth I first never married is she looked north of the border and saw what Mary Queen

[Ian Dale]

of Scots was doing and she had wooden teeth.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, she may well have had wooden teeth, but I don't think that stops you necessarily having sex. And I expect most people.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, would you want to have sex with someone with wooden teeth of different

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

holes on that one?

[Ian Dale]

I'm just saying she doesn't do smart. And then she makes a comment like that.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Having wooden teeth was a sign she had access to sugar, which was an indicator of her wealth. But back to Elizabeth. She actively chooses not to compromise herself and therefore the state of the realm by marrying either making a first among equals from the English aristocracy or going overseas and compromising British sovereignty. In that way, she's the ultimate Brexiteer, really, isn't she? In some ways, Elizabeth I. But it means she ends up having to go shopping for her heir. We go north of the border for James the sixth and First.

[Ian Dale]

I was just thinking it'd be pretty awful getting a blowjob off someone with wooden teeth.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Time for a break. Just time for a break. And we'll move on to Wales. We'll sober up, Ian, with the labor movement in Wales. Thank you.

[Ian Dale]

Do you remember Leanne Wood? She was the leader of Ply Cymru. It doesn't work on a podcast, by the way. When you shake your head, you do have to say no.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I wasn't sure if I remembered her or not, so I just gave my head a roll. Continue.

[Ian Dale]

Whenever she used to appear on the media, every single answer, more or less or every single sentence began with the words here in Wales. And it was very, very annoying because she did it so often. It's like people, when you interview them, they start every answer with so. And that was her little thing where she just said it almost automatically.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

It was a hashtag. She locates herself. It's all about identity. Are you politician of somewhere or anywhere?

[Ian Dale]

Similar one with the Liberal Democrats, where if you interview a Liberal Democrat politician, they never say, we believe xyz. They say the Liberal Democrats believe XYZ just so they can get their name.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And you know why? Because they're fighting for space.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

This is one of the problems of the first past the post system. I've had a feedback from the pod criticizing us for jumping into subjects and not properly forefronting what we're talking about. And I think that first bit of the POD wasn't really up to spec. It was at best to be. Plus, I'm now going to forefront what we're coming into at last. Election. Was it just after. I can't remember the last set of local elections in November 2022, Labour was marking a significant centenary. What was that centenary, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

So 1922.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it wasn't the first Labour government. That was. Or was it?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I've given you a big clue in the first quarter of this program.

[Ian Dale]

Well, obviously I'm not intelligent enough to pick listening.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

You're too busy bracing yourself to read out that flattering tweet. It was marking the century since it first won more Welsh seats and votes than its rivals at the general election in November 1922. It then emerged as Wales's biggest party in every subsequent Westminster election and in all six sened election Senate. You're right. Well, you didn't have to.

[Ian Dale]

Well, if you're going to say the word, you need to pronounce it correctly.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Counter blow there. Well, I was letting you know that this is, I'm presuming because obviously groping in the dark on terms of the results. But if predictions have been held up overnight, reform implied CYMRU will have removed that record breaking mantle from the Labour Party.

[Ian Dale]

Well, all the polls show that labor far from getting the 30 to 40% which they would have got in the past. In fact, I suspect it was a lot more than that. They're now polling somewhere between like 12 and 15%. Well, they're going to come third on that basis. Now I suspect that as people are listening to this during the course of Friday, that Labour overall across the country might have done a little bit better than everyone was predicting, but probably be proved wrong on that. But in Wales, there is no coming back from that. And you've already, the recriminations have already started with Eleanor Morgan, the, the outgoing first minister she's tipped to lose her seat and she's already been blaming Keir Starmer for what's happening. And I think that's going to be the crucial thing in Wales and indeed the rest of the country. How much blame does Keir Starmer himself have to take for these election results? Because even on CNN last night they were talking about Starmer's unpopularity, saying he's got 18% approval ratings which no other political leader in the western world is that.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, apparently Frederick Marx was being run over the coals in Germany because his economic reforms haven't worked and because he offended Trump, et cetera. And he was sitting and he was being interviewed and he cited Keir Starmer as an example of the establishment prime minister who's struggling in the wave of populism. And of course we know in my beloved Romania the Prime Minister has just been unseated by a weird coalition of Social Democrats and far right.

[Ian Dale]

How long is it since the last election? Not that long, is it?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No, but remember, the presidential and parliamentary are slightly different. They're out of sync. So you've still got the president, President that was voted in last year, now trying to grope around to find a Prime minister. Akin, really, to what Macron's up against. I mean, the political landscape across Europe is febrile, to say the least. But let's just take Keir Starmer, if we could momentarily and sort of interrogate that idea of to what extent he can be held responsible for the ails of his party and look at Lloyd George in World War I and try and work out what. What's going on and what went on then in Wales. So he's a Welsh Prime Minister, not at the start of the war, obviously becomes one, having been Minister of Munitions and then Minister of War, but he heavily leans into the war as a liberal. And if you think of so much liberalism comes from volunteerism, the laissez faire, the free market, all these things are utterly derailed in World War I. And yet. Yet he has stood up as the man of war, the steel man.

[Ian Dale]

But Lloyd George was never a Gladstonian liberal, he was never the sort of laissez faire type liberal. He was much more a collectivist. If you look at when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, all of the welfare reforms he brought in. I mean, admittedly, I mean, he gets all the credit for these reforms, but actually, you know, the person who should get the credit, Henry Campbell Bannerman, when he became prime minister in 1906, and I think was Asquith the Chancellor then. I think he was. Most of these welfare reforms came from his head, but it was Lloyd George who got the glory because he was the one that ended up implementing them. So if Henry Campbell Bannerman had lived, he died in 1908, which is when Asquith took over. If he had lived, I think he would been seen as one of the heroes of the welfare state for having the ideas that he brought in.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Possibly. It's interesting, though, isn't it, the way in which populations and movements recast individuals. And certainly Lloyd George was seen to have let down the liberal side, particularly from a Welsh perspective, where you've got that Quaker movement, always more lukewarm about the idea of fighting the Germans. There was a lot about the socialist model in Wales that actually respected a lot of what the German economic model stood for. So they were slightly more ambivalent, arguably, about the cause of war at the beginning, that said, you get huge numbers of Welsh men signing up to fight. 280,000 Welsh are not just conscripted, but also volunteered. They have their own regiment. Lloyd George pushes for that. But they're also shoved into all sorts of English regiments where they say they're very discriminated against. But the Taffy also manages to find a kinship with the Mancunian and the Scouser. So there is a sort of a British melting pot that happens over in France. But what's interesting is in the war, and I hadn't really been aware of this, was the power and the militancy, increasing militancy of the miners, particularly in the south of Wales. They're the first to strike. They strike for the longest and they're aware of their increased economic value because the value of coal goes up. It's fueling the war machine.

[Ian Dale]

And that. That is one of the. Bear in mind, we are speaking and on the 100th anniversary of the general strike taking place, I mean, it started, I think, was it on May 8, so that what we. Now we're 77, so it would have started tomorrow, I. E. When people are listening to this and we maybe do something on that over the course of the next couple of weeks, because I think it ended on May 26. And Churchill's role in that is very interesting as well. But I mean, Lloyd. Lloyd George, he. He was. I think he was the most crucial politician throughout the war. Now, there are a bit. In various parts of the war, you could say there were others that possibly were more important, but he was completely in favour of the war right from the beginning, which I think a lot of people, as you say, were a bit surprised by. It was he that effectively ousted Asquith and then took over in 1916. And it really was. You could almost date the turning point in the war from that point, because he was a real leader. Asquith was not a war leader.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Let's look at that role because there's no room for ambiguity. If you're feeling queasy about the war and at the same time Labour play it, this nascent Labour movement. Ramsay MacDonald, of course, a key player. And I think there's about 16 Labour politicians in Parliament at that time. They are just very canny. Ramsey refuses to partake in the government. He resigns as leader. He doesn't want to be associated with the war, but he remains. His statements about the war are fairly ambiguous. So it doesn't look like he's decrying the Men who are giving their lives. 40,000 Welshmen die incidentally in the First World War. But there are other members for Labour bearing mind there's only 16 of them who actually get elevated to cabinet level. So this gives them the first taste of real power.

[Ian Dale]

It also formalizes cabinet ministers.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Henderson. Henderson, yes. Was elevated, yeah, 100%. In fact, three Labour politicians, but particularly Henderson enters the cabinet. So three enter government and Henderson enters the cabinet. But at the same time, while they partake in this national governance, they absolutely have no truck with the diplomacy that led to war. So they say we're getting you out of this hole, but we didn't get you into it. And therefore they play a very clever pivot game where you can't let the war stick on Labour, it's all on the liberals. And when you come out of the war, what you have is the Welsh coal miner, better paid than he's ever been before, earning about a fiver a week, riding high nationalized mines, etc. And then gradually, as you move into the 20s, you're going to get the re emergence of the coal mines across Europe. You're going to get a plummeting in the value of coal crashes by about 33%. So suddenly, having been Mr. Top Dog in Wales, you fall down, you plummet down the rankings. So you have effectively a cost of living crisis and that strikes start long before 1926 in Wales. And with it, of course, comes this disaffection with liberals and this leaning into Labour.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's interesting you raised the industrial strife in the First World War and indeed we could say in the Second World War, where we have this almost idealized view of national unity in both of the World wars. And yet strikes were rife in both, weren't they? And again, that's something that I don't think many people even realize.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I know, because we cast particularly we look at the Second World War, I think there was more unity because the, the war was a clearer moral cause and it was set out more effectively and the enemy was, was easier. He was like a Putin, a Hitler, you know, very clear black and white case. And we see that even versus what's going on in Ukraine versus the Middle East. People like a really obvious moral path to walk and then they will tread with you. And that's what happened in World War II. But even then, the fact we have to introduce conscription for women, because we'll come to this later in the year, it's the 85th anniversary of conscription for women, says there weren't Enough volunteers. Stick your ruddy war. That's what a lot of women were thinking. So this idea that we now impose on that generation, they were all up

[Ian Dale]

for it, you know, so they're the women that are voting green now, aren't they?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And can you blame them? But let's not forget that men also had to be conscripted.

[Ian Dale]

Let's go forward a bit here because I think again, one of the most interesting aspects of these local elections now, particularly in Wales, well, only in Wales is the emergence of Plaid Cymru as a party of government.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

So tell me when it first emerges. Cymru.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think it was founded in 1925.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Indeed. And do you know why?

[Ian Dale]

Go on.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

The Labour Party in Wales had always been strongly for home rule and a more clear national identity for Wales. But when the numbers, the sheer volume of Labour voters and parliamentarians coming from Wales meant that the national British Labour, Labour movement couldn't afford to relinquish their Welsh players. And that meant that the idea of any kind of independence or separation between Wales and the rest of the Labour movement in Britain was side shuffled. It was moved off the board and that gave space for Clyde Cymru.

[Ian Dale]

But it took a long time for that movement to make any impact. I mean, they didn't have their first MP, I think, until 1966 in the Carmarthen by election. I think Gwynfort Evans was the first Plaid Cymru MP to be elected. And ever since then, they've only ever had, I think, a maximum of four. And yet here they are about to have a first Minister. Now, I think we have to analyze why that is. Why has Clyde become a party of government now where they are? The latest opinion poll showed them on 43% of the vote. Unprecedented. And. And they used to be only strong in North Wales or West Wales. Now they've got footholds in the south as well. And I think the reason is absolutely nothing to do with independence. And this is where I think there's a big difference between Plyde and the snp. The reason that they're getting all this support is because they've provided a natural home for left of centre or left wing Labour voters. They were going to reform reform and some of them still will, will have done. But Plyde have managed to usurp reform. We saw that in the Senate by election a few months ago where Reform were convinced they were going to win, but actually Plaid won in the end. So they've been very successful in becoming the repository for Labour protest votes.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I Think also there's more of a collective spirit in Plyde Cymru. Collective on a Welsh national level that replicates what the Labour movement used to provide clause 4 in it together for the working man and woman. That's for the birds. Now it no longer exists, but they've rehomed with Plaid Cymru. And I for one, the lesser of two evils. I'm not pro independence and, you know, I loathe a bitcoin millionaire, dodgy dealer, Nigel Farage, so. But, but if I had to choose, I'd always go for Plaid Cymru over reform.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, because you're on the left. I mean, you make my case for me.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Decent human being, I like to think, Janella. Anyway, so when from 1922, just quickly. The Liberals and the Labour are both still major players in Wales. Labour for the industrial vote and the Liberals for the rural vote continues for 40 years until the 60s and then it's basically all Labour from the 60s onwards.

[Ian Dale]

But I think the challenge for Plyde now is to are they actually genuinely going to be a party of independence or not? Because it's very interesting, in the debate that I hosted in Cardiff last week, Renap Yorath, the leader who used to be a BBC journalist, I said to him, well, do you really want independence? And he said, well, we want a new British union. I said, hang on a minute, you can't have a British union and be independent. And he was all over the place on it. And Eleanor Morgan really went for him on that. Quite right too, because he was totally incoherent.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but isn't that constructive ambiguity from his point of view? Because he's looking to lead a broad church and if you're looking to lead broad church, you can't be too strong.

[Ian Dale]

He's going to have to go into coalition with someone, somebody. I mean, the Liberal Democrats in Wales are essentially extinct. They may get one member of the Senate, the Conservatives may only have four. Well, they're not going to go into coalition with Plyde, so they're then left with the Greens, who also aren't expected to do particularly well in Wales.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

He's too tree huggy, isn't he? Zach Polanski, I think.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Well, I don't. I mean, the, the leader of the Green Party in Wales that was on our debate panel. Nice guy. I mean, you wouldn't put him up there with the bright shining lights of politics.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Insubstantial.

[Ian Dale]

Yes. So where do they go to ply then? Say, well, let's have a coalition with Labour, I mean that.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

So I suspect it's a bit incestuous that.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it may well be. Well they were in coalition in the minority role. It may well be that ply say, well actually no, we'll go alone, thank you very much. We'll challenge you to vote down our budget and that's probably the best thing that they could do. But as I've said all along, I think Wales will have been the big story of these elections.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

It's fascinating and there is a tragedy baked into the narrative which is a Labour one, which is. It's a red tragedy, I think because when you have become so untethered from your origin story, the question is where are you going? When you no longer recognize your genesis, where are you headed?

[Ian Dale]

I don't think it is a tragedy. I think it's actually quite inspiring because it shows that nothing is forever. That. And you see, Labour in Wales should have learned from the experience of Labour in Scotland where they regarded Glasgow, for example, as their fiefdom. They controlled Glasgow City Council for decades, let down the whole of Glasgow. I mean life expectancy in Glasgow even now is way below anywhere else in the United Kingdom apart from Blackpool, I think. And I think things have improved a bit. So the SNP came in what, 20 years ago and took up the cudgels from Labour in all of these different post industrial places. And Labour in Wales haven't learned the lesson from that. And so it's really their own fault. I mean from that point of view it's a tragedy for them. But I think from a democratic point of view it's great because it shows that in the end the people clock on and they think, no, we're being taken for a ride here, we're being taken for granted, so we'll go somewhere else. And that, that, I mean you, you won't like this. But that is where reform have also picked up a lot of success.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

We'll come to this after the break. But just the lack of accountability that Nigel Farage is not held to account in our establishment medium in the way that K D was because he was.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, well, let's come to that in a minute because I totally disagree with you on that.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, break. Corey may not come back. Oh no. I've got to mention my book. Oh, gosh. Will be returning.

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[Ian Dale]

You know, I've had an idea which is to your advantage.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, really?

[Ian Dale]

I think that we should be charging our listeners a tithe for listening to this podcast for free. And every so often we need to implement this tithe.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And the tithe, it's called Patron, on any normal podcast, by the way.

[Ian Dale]

But the tithe for this particular podcast, if you wish to continue listening, listening, you have to now go to an online bookstore and order Lest we forget by Dr. Tessa Dunlop, the paperback edition. So it's only going to cost you about eight or nine quid, and we think that's the least, basically that you can do to support the penniless Tessa

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Dunlop to keep me afloat.

[Ian Dale]

Exactly.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yesterday.

[Ian Dale]

Because obviously we know I'm so rich. I don't need.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, you don't need to. Yesterday I told you that I'd spoken at Madingley hall in Cambridgeshire and I'd recommended him to speak and he went, great. Do they pay? And when I told him what the fee was, he said, well, I, I wouldn't speak for that. And I said it was for the sick children's charity.

[Ian Dale]

No, you didn't say it was a sick children's charity at all. You just said, oh, they are a charity.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, exactly, they're a charity.

[Ian Dale]

You didn't say it was sick children.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No, I agree. You can get some weird charities like exam boards, but this is a proper charity. It's a sick children's charity. Anyway, thank you very much for ordering my book, everyone. Really, really appreciate it.

[Ian Dale]

Watch it shoot up the Amazon charts.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Cool. It's just rocketed. God. And mind you, Amazon's really scary. You know, there's been a huge amount of research into why we're all moving towards respective populist parties. And huge numbers of people say we don't like the potholes, we don't like the holes in our high street. It's like gaps in a row of teeth. The fact that now criminal cartelsky that criminal cartels stop, don't get personal to black people. Criminal cartels running the local hairdresser, the weird Turkish kebab shop. And in between, you might be lucky if you get an estate agent and a nail pole bar. Where's it all gone wrong? And you can look into your cloud and find Amazon. It's Actually robbed off every single one of us. And I feel sick when I discover that, oh, Amazon has ordered way more of my books than Waterstones. I wonder why.

[Ian Dale]

Oh no, it's absolutely true. When my. I know people hate it when we talk about books, but we're going to continue.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But relative. You could be anything watering.

[Ian Dale]

When my book was first announced, the publishers told me that they'd had a flood of orders from various places. But Amazon was by far the biggest because.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But it undercuts everyone and it charges all the sellers, so. And the only person who's better off is Bezos.

[Ian Dale]

And it's sick to be fair to Amazon. I mean it's the consumer as well because you do get things cheaper on Amazon than most other places and they're very reliable in terms of their delivery slavery.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But the money in the middle doesn't get reinvested in the high street.

[Ian Dale]

I'm not arguing with you. But from the consumer's point of view, they're making a rational economic decision.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And on the other hand they irrationally then blame their establishment politicians when actually the accountability doesn't even line the British sovereign sphere because the likes of Bezos.

[Ian Dale]

I don't believe that the key to Britain's economic future is to tax the better off because generally that doesn't. Every country's experience shows that does not work. I would make an exception for Amazon because I think they are indulging in unfair competitive practices.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

100% agreement. It makes me feel wrong if I put a link up to my book where it's available for the cheapest price.

[Ian Dale]

I never linked to Amazon.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, it's totally wrong. So I haven't done it either because I haven't actually got around to linking. But I wanted to address on the subject of corruption and well funded men who lack British accountability, that imposter Nigel Farage, we've no idea how well he's done. Of course you know better than us as you're listening right now, but I just couldn't bear listening to the media the way in which for example Juliet, by the way, who's a listener, criticized us last week for leaping into the middle of the Zach Polanski story when he was taken down because he reposted on Twitter the policeman kicking the culprit of the anti Semitic stabbings in the head and she said I had no clue what you were talking about. You need to forefront your stories better.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I suspect. Well then you need to follow the news a bit better because that was. Hang on, that was one of the Biggest stories of the week.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Juliet clearly relies on us for news and therefore we need to actually forefront and assume lowest common denominator that we're always talking. Hi, Juliet. To Juliet. Right. But it was interesting what a drubbing he got. Relative, I thought, to Nigel Farage. This 5 million. Oh, it was for my personal security. Oh, what? Ding, mate. Because you got an ice cream in the face and clacked her. Stop.

[Ian Dale]

You see there? I happen to know the kind of threats that he's been under and yes, people make a joke about him being milkshaked. That could have been acid.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Why didn't he register the 5 million?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think he should have registered it after he became an mp. I will go that far and I think he should, because MPs are told they have a meeting with the parliamentary expenses people and they're told they need to register anything that could influence them from the previous 12 months. So I'm with you on that point. But when he, when he actually took the money, he wasn't an mp, so there was nothing to register at that point.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Right. But it's a bit like Stan Duty and Angela Rayner. I just think we do hold some politicians to standards higher.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, this whole thought about the media has ignored this. I mean, it's in every, every single day it's being talked about, it's been

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

talked about, but I don't feel he's been suitably held to account.

[Ian Dale]

Well, if he refuses to go on Lower Kuenssberg, there's nothing that any can do to force him to do that because obviously he would have been asked about it. I had David Bull, the chairman of and he said Ukip Reform UK on the program on Tuesday. I asked him about it, but there's

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

this weird cognitive dissonance where the likes of Trump and Farage claim they're these anti establishment players. At the same time they turn around and they diddle the rest of us. I mean, we know that Trump, come

[Ian Dale]

on, you see, this is why you go over the top. He's not diddling the rest of us that money. I mean, I'm taking him at face value because I know the kind of security threats he's had, had. I mean, this, this goes back a long way. The last time I had lunch with Nigel Farage, which, which was probably four or five years ago now, he was talking to me about that at the time. He had security guards in a Land Rover Discovery, which I know because they gave me a lift back to OBC

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

afterwards, I take it.

[Ian Dale]

And do you not think that a leader of a political party that the government knows gets huge amounts of threats. Do you not think the taxpayer actually should be funding security for someone like, forget the way I think they should do it for Zach Polanski as well.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I have issues with two. Two things you premised the beginning of the discussion with, you said, oh, I took him at face value. What other politician do you take at face value, Ian? And then, oh, this was a chit chat over a cozy lunch. Which was the other word that you threw in, of course.

[Ian Dale]

What's wrong with me having lunch with Nigel Farage?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I just think lunch.

[Ian Dale]

He was a colleague at LBC at the time.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I just would prefer conversations like that to be held either in an interview. Interview session.

[Ian Dale]

Well, hang on. He was a colleague. He wasn't leading a political party at the time, as far as I recall.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Cozy chat.

[Ian Dale]

He was a colleague. But even then, even though he wasn't actively involved in politics at the time, he was still getting all these threats, of course.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And that makes him look like the cavalier hero that Trump is today because of his three assassination attacks.

[Ian Dale]

Beyond your blindness for just because you loathe and abhor Nigel Farage, take him personally out of the equation. Do you not think that leaders of political parties, because of the way that we are as a society now, they all get threats. Can be Badenot gets threats. I'm sure Davey probably does. Should they not have security funded by the taxpayer?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I'm awful. Funded security by the taxpayer. But Nigel Fash Clear didn't need it because it received five million quid from a bitcoin millionaire who lacks British accountability because he makes all this money.

[Ian Dale]

This was five years ago. He's now, now got it since 2024 before he was elected as an MP.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But we, but we both agree that he broke the code by not declaring it when he became an mp.

[Ian Dale]

He says, and his defense is that when he became an mp, he and his legal people looked at this and they just made a decision that it wasn't declarable. Now, I think that was wrong. You think that was wrong? He will have to account for that too.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And I don't know about anybody else, but I feel much more concerned about that than I do about the genesis of Keir Starmer's spectacles, his wife's dresses or Angelina and stamp duty. Because of the third party. Yeah, because if you are receiving millions of pounds from an individual who lies out with the British in terms of.

[Ian Dale]

Again, you're being totally illogical because of your hatred For Nigel Farage. Well, I don't think it is. If you're being consistent, you should be arguing just because Keir Starmer's value was £20,000. Yes, that is a lot less than £5 million, granted. But the principle is still the same.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

The difference is the individual who gifted to Farage is very hard to hold him to account because of where he lives. And I fundamentally disagree with sizeable donations coming in from overseas to our political system.

[Ian Dale]

And that's a separate. That's a separate thing.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But arguably it's part of the story.

[Ian Dale]

Well, of course it is part of the story. He's a British citizen, he happens to live in Thailand. I mean, if he was, if he was a Thai citizen, I'd be absolutely with you 100 of the way. But he's not. He's a British citizen who has, by

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

the way, name him Christopher, Christopher harbor,

[Ian Dale]

who has said that he will move back to this country if this goes any further because he still will want to donate to Nigel Farage. But the principle of Lord Ali funding Keir Starmer's private wardrobe, I mean, I still think that the principle is the same regardless of the amount.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I think the amount matters, matters. I really do, actually matters.

[Ian Dale]

But the principle matters too.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

It is the bigger picture where I do find this extraordinary cognitive dissonance. We're presuming today that Nigel Farage has done well and we're sitting in the wake of his respective local and national landslides. And I wonder and ask those who voted for him how they make sense of his anti establishment narrative. The same of which we get from Trump when we know. So Trump, it's almost been proven now, hasn't it? He makes an announcement on Truth Social then, but beforehand the markets have suddenly picked onto the fact that Trump's going to say something and they've bet heavily and huge amounts of money is being made. And there are clear examples of corruption at the heart of the American administration. And I would suggest, and I've got no proof for this.

[Ian Dale]

Well, be careful what you suggest.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

The candidate that is more likely to ape those tactics, given he's aped a lot of the Maga movement tact, is Farage the so called anti establishment player, also, given his trading background and history?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I also think that you need to be cognizant of the fact that over the last few months Farage has distanced himself from Trump in quite a meaningful way.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And we know why, because he knows it wouldn't go down well because of the unpopularity of the Iran War. It's all self expediency. It's not about Trump's morals or his tendency to make billions of pounds off.

[Ian Dale]

Or you could, if you wanted to be Jane Rustafarage, which clearly you never do, but if you, you could say, well, maybe the scales are starting to fall his eyes. And that he realizes that Trump isn't quite what he thought he was.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I've heard too much about not only Farage, but about his son, I'm afraid, to mean that I would never, never, never be able to countenance the idea that he could provide moral leadership in this country. I'm sorry, I just. I'm not for turning when it comes to Farage. I'm not for turning. I'll vote for any bugger. Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

I'm properly angry and scared and don't take. Look, I've always said, I will not vote for Farage, I will not vote for Reform. I happen to like Farage on a personal basis. That doesn't mean, say, I'll vote for him and I won't.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

And the difference, by the way, just on a human level, between the responses from the Conservative MPs who I approached about their Labour constituents And the Reform MPs that I approached was gargantuan. And it really reminded me of the human chasm between Reform.

[Ian Dale]

Chasm.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Chasm between reform and the Conservatives. Richard Tice blithely suggesting that all Romanians in his constituency weren't working effectively, whereas actually Conservatives caring about the individual. I thought that that is the difference. And they don't show that caring conservatism side enough because they're so busy chasing down reform votes. We have a break.

[Ian Dale]

I think it's about time.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Fuck you.

[Ian Dale]

Right, let's take a few questions. Here's this one I was warning you about, which is a bit anti. Both of them, us. This is dear Dr. Dunlop and Professor Ian. So maybe it's more anti than me. I don't. So continue.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Do you know, I'm on some sky history series and I've got to promote it and just all I can get over is the bad angle on my jawline, the fact they haven't given me a doctor credit.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, dear.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, longtime listener from the very beginning says Jamie, recent observation is that the pod has genuinely slipped. See, I have to say that I think he's wrong on this. Most of the feedback I get is that people. People have. Think it's much better than it used to be.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Sometimes I think it. Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, he says most of the time, you Sound like an unpleasant bickering couple.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

We got that level and that sort of criticism much more earlier in our relationship. Yeah, people have got used to it now we kill them all.

[Ian Dale]

It's easy to say disagreement is bickering. And okay, we possibly do bicker like an old married couple, but sometimes. But I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I think it's.

[Ian Dale]

Is it better than agreeing all the time?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. But also, it's disingenuous to do a kind of fake BBC impartial mush. It doesn't give you much light.

[Ian Dale]

And anyway, you like this bit, or maybe not. The history element is really occasional, unfocused and patchy.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'd agree, because you don't give me space sometimes.

[Ian Dale]

What?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

On the bickering front.

[Ian Dale]

As if I could prevent you from saying something that you wanted to. Anyway, the fluff is very egotistical and should be dumped.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I agree there as well.

[Ian Dale]

It is turning into a book promotion, which is not what I signed up for. Well, don't slam the door on your way out, Jamie.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, no, don't get rid of a listener. He might buy a book. Oh, no, of course, we've established he won't do that. Okay, bye.

[Ian Dale]

Jamie, please think about this. You're both brilliant, but ultimately narcissistic, and you need to get back to where you started, which. Which was brilliant. Well, look, I'm going to take that in the spirit, which I think it was meant as being constructive. And. And we do from time to time, think, well, are we getting the balance right? And I think there is possibly an imbalance between the politics and the history. I think there is, and that's not. That's nobody's fault. But we are primarily there to talk about the news. And sometimes there is a historical parallel and sometimes there isn't, which there was today. There was. Look, I thought this was slightly ironic to get this email after the last podcast, where I thought, from a historical point of view, all your stuff on liberalism, I thought that was a really, really good discussion about the historical side of things. And today I think we've done well.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

He's looking more broadly and I think he has a point. And I shall work harder at the history and force it down your throat. The problem is, if I start telling Ian anything historic that doesn't immediately resonate with the present day. He looks at his phone. Yes, that's true. Now, I'm going to come in with a question. This is from Emily. Hi, Tessa, the commentator in the last pod, talking about your exam campaign made some poor arguments. When I was at school in Scotland in the mid-2000s, my friend with Italian heritage was able to sit higher Italian at a local college entirely separated from our school, and that helped her into hospitality management as she was able to formalize her knowledge into a recognizable qualification. There weren't all that many Italians locally, but it was still deemed sensible to provide that option. A fluffyish question for the pod. I am considering booking my next holiday to you both. Where have you visited that had a surprisingly good museum, politically significant attraction that you really enjoyed? The less obvious the better.

[Ian Dale]

Please God.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I want to say the Perth Museum Museum in Scotland. I haven't been, but it's really been revamped and it's got the Stone of Scone and it's also got Mary Queen of Scots last letter. Well, she got her head chopped off and I'm longing to go.

[Ian Dale]

You see, I'm really struggling with this because I don't generally go to a lot of museums.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Too busy scrolling on Instagram.

[Ian Dale]

That is possibly true and I, I do feel guilty about it, but one of the things I have noticed on my scrolling on Instagram is that there's a new little trend where a wife will film her husband reading some plaque in a museum and he stands there for like five minutes reading this thing and she just wants to get on. Well, I'm the wife in that situation. I can't. I'm happy to walk around a museum, but I'm not going to stand and stare at something for a long time. The place that I would suggest which has a lot of history where I went last year year I can't say I went to any museums was Corfu. I mean, if you can't find things of interest to see in Greece more widely, then you're doing something wrong because every Greek island has a really fascinating history. So I would suggest Corfu, but I went on a Jet2 holiday which I must admit I was rather skeptical of, but they were absolutely brilliant. It was a four star hotel.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, not back to this. We've just had a lecture about the ego distance historical nature of our podcast. I would say Perth Museum, where I've just confirmed it is the last letter of Mary Queen of Scots. And the other place, obviously bias. But you will remember that the Dachin helmet of Cotta Fineshed was stolen from a Dutch museum. Yes, this is all over the museum. The Romanian Dashian treasure that was lent from Bucharest to Holland.

[Ian Dale]

I do remember.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And bracelets. And then it was found it was amazing. It was breaking news. After a year, it was discovered and it was this extraordinary character, Dutchman on a bicycle, who is somebody who retrieves antique treasures. And he always said it probably would be retrieved because they managed to apprehend the thieves within something like 48 hours of the theft, I. E. They hadn't had time to melt down the gold. But they are back now in the National History Museum in Bucharest. Well worth checking out.

[Ian Dale]

And they won't be lending those out again.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Sure not like the Barton and Ma Quite.

[Ian Dale]

This is from Chris. Wow. What is Tessa on about? Read the police in gold is green. Does she just do this for clickbait debate? What a bonkers reaction to have towards the police disarming an assailant like they did. They have no idea who or what else was involved. Who was to know there wasn't a bomb in his back? This country has really gone mad. If the police are criticized for their quick, swift and life saving actions. And before you give your response to that, this is where Zach Polanski has gone really wrong because he apologized for retweeting that tweet and now he's sort of half gone back on it. And. And he said in the the interview with Nick Robinson on Wednesday that while the guy was handcuffed. Well, he wasn't handcuffed. No, really wasn't.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But his hands were under his chest. But I think I feel I've been misrepresented in that email that you've just read out because what I took umbrage with was the final blow to the head. There was just. If you watched it, I understand the man. Man needed to be disabled from his weapon and that the police were apprehending a vicious criminal. But I felt it was excessive force. Okay. And we are allowed our opinions. Zach Polanski apologized for taking the argument onto Twitter or amplifying the argument on Twitter. I felt rather than withdrawing his words about the commentary of police behavior. But maybe that was also confused on the subject. If I may of no go again. You can ask another question.

[Ian Dale]

No, I haven't got another one.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Okay. Because now I want to. I'm really scared of being seen to be egotistic or self involved in any way.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, about your book.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, we need to choose a couple of winners that actually statues have been prevalent in the news. The Banksy one. Have you been to visit.

[Ian Dale]

No, I've been to visit a Banksy statue. Are you kidding me? I mean Banks. I mean what is this thing about Banksy? I don't give a damn about Banksy.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Sometimes they, he, you know, I think manages to hit on the zeitgeist. And it was this pastiche, if you like, of a victory soldier, a victory parade, the flag obliterating the view of the marching man. Well placed. And I haven't been to see it, so I don't know why I'm condemning you for not. But it was originally spotted in Waterloo Place. And the whole point is, you know that flag faith mantra that we're getting from reform, blinding us. We're marching forward, not seeing where we're going. And I know it's very obvious, colour by numbers, but Banksy is pretty obvious. And for the humble observer, I like the fact it drew attention to the inanimate objects that litter our streets.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, Banksy is basically a wet dream for liberal lefties, isn't he? Nothing, nothing more than that. Not a talented artist in my book. Yes, you can say, well, he, he paints things to do with the zeitgeist of the time. Time were bully for him.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

On the subject of statues, we could then. What I find fascinating is given the different forms of communication and visual art that have taken place since Roman times, and the statue was the first and foremost and really only option, they are still so central in our public discourse. IDF absolutely dragged across the coals. One of their soldiers is being investigated because he was photographed smoking and placing another cigarette on the mouth of the statue of the Virgin Mary in occupied southern Lebanon. And this comes, comes off the back of another case last month where there was a member of the IDF hitting a statue of Jesus on a cross in the face with a sledgehammer. And what's interesting from a viewer's point of view is the way in which the IDF have absolutely come down on the respective individuals, taken responsibility and really addressed this egregious act. Two acts. And there does seem to be a disconnect or a dissonance between the value placed in a statue, a Christian statue, and the extraordinary collateral that's done by their actions in countries like Lebanon. I have to say it because a lot of people are thinking it. Ian.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'm glad that they've come down like a ton of bricks on somebody who's done that. But because whatever the religion, I mean, its adherence would be appalled by anybody doing that, whether they're a representative of the Israeli state or not.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But it is still an inanimate object. That's all I'm saying. It can't be killed a statue, so can be rearranged.

[Ian Dale]

The house is an animate object, but you don't want it blown up.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But lives are not replaceable. Well, and my story, my book is all about loss. Lest we forget. 100 stories of love, loss and heroism. They've taken the word monuments out of the title. I told them to. I told them to in the first place. And what's the COVID got on it, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

It's got a bloke snogging a woman.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, it's got a woman on the COVID This is about love and loss. It's before the loss. You get the love.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's actually, there's. There's two. Or is that the same picture?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Don't know.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, it does look a bit little. A little bit like a novelist now, doesn't it?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

It's a bloody good cover. My seven year old said it's very inappropriate.

[Ian Dale]

Dr.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Though, you don't put Dr. On a book cover because then people think it'd be heavy. Fair.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I mean, it's obviously not fluffy because we don't. We don't do fluffy and. But it's not heavy. Now I.

[Ian Dale]

And can I. Can I make an observation?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

Along the bottom you've got three endorsements, all from people who happen to have a penis.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I didn't know, but Lucy Worsley's forefront.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, it's still 3:1 though.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But it's just those people who came forward to give me quotes. More men than women.

[Ian Dale]

Strangely enough, I don't feature on that. I don't even feature on the back cover. After all I've done for you.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

You get in the front and you've

[Ian Dale]

got someone called Helen Parr. Who's she?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know she. Funnily enough, I do know she's quite a well known historian.

[Ian Dale]

But she's Lindsay Fitzharris. Who is that?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

She wrote the Facemaker. It's all about reconstructive surgery. She's massive medical historian, so I don't even make the.

[Ian Dale]

But. Well, I suppose you're not on the back cover of mine either yet, because I haven't chosen the quotes to go on. But there we go.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

That's my case. Anyway. Anyway, I'm now going to read out. A couple of people are up for selection and these are my short lists. Okay. So you ought to choose your favorite one because I said you were going to decide. This is from Zoe Pasca, my grandma, who lost her husband during World War II and who with all her grief and struggles of a young war widow, somehow managed to bring up alone her two little Daughters of seven and six to provide and give them a good education and send them to study at the best universities in Romania should be dedicated on your book. My grandfather is my unknown hero, but my grandma's heroism and strength brackets, although she was a frail little woman, to move on and live in dignity and honour is even more touching and worthy of admiration. She is my true hero whom I would love to dedicate your book. That's from Zoe. Okay. Remember that in your little head. Next one. My father in law was managed to survive World War II as a bomber navigator on a B25 in China. He did 22 missions and managed to survive. He came home, got married six months later and had six children. The youngest is my husband. We lost him to colon cancer in 1984 just before we got married. In 85, I wrote him a card. To my father in law before we married as we knew we wouldn't see him on our wedding day. We've been married 41 years, but he was the calmest, kindest man. Who gave you 100%. My husband still misses him and so do I. But he had been through hell and I think everything else was nothing compared to that. He still felt guilt for his missions and always believed that after war was a waste of human lives, lest we forget them. That was touching, wasn't it?

[Ian Dale]

So you've got four of these and I've got to pick two?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

So in other words, I've got to reject the next two for these two?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. That is one of the uncomfortable things about picking any winner. Will we just stop there and say those two are really moving and you don't want to reject those two.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but what about the others that have entered?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Okay. Please could you dedicate a book to my sons Joshua 26 and Toby, 24 who lost their dad suddenly last year. He died in the night of a sub arachnoid brain bleed and they didn't get to say goodbye. Adam was my ex husband and he left behind two children in total and a partner. Sorry. Adam was my ex husband and he left behind five children in total and a partner. It's broken my heart to lose the father of my children, a lifelong friend and to see my boys grieve is soul destroying and deep pain in my heart. We were all doing our best, but grief is tough. So little bit of kindness, the small gains help us beat this grief. Thank you. And one more just to finish it off. These are my short list. By the way of griefs. You must remember people who have died for their Beauty for the love you shared, for what they stood for and all the beauty that they encompass. Because love is the only thing that doesn't die. And if you love them and they love you, it means, in a way, they're still part of something greater. The mystery that never stops and never dies. And he goes on to explain that his father committed suicide.

[Ian Dale]

I can't choose between those four. So what I will do is pay for the other two. So we send four out.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, that is so lovely. I love it.

[Ian Dale]

You can't possibly pick between those, can you?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

But I.

[Ian Dale]

Because each one is their own individual story and they don't want to be rejected. Why? Why would they?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, so I'll send out four. I've actually got four copies.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, well, I'm happy to pay for two of them.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

No, you don't have to. I. I'll send them out. It's a beautiful moment.

[Ian Dale]

So they want my signature, not yours.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Well, somebody on Twitter did say he wanted to sign the books. If you sign the books, you can bloody well pay for that, actually. All right, you can pay for two. I've changed my mind. Corey, do you think it's time to end the pod because Ian's about to cry?

[Ian Dale]

I am. Because that's just so moving, isn't it? I mean, the. The third one about losing somebody like that. I mean, that you just.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, they're all moving.

[Ian Dale]

They really are.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Right. Well, we will be back on Tuesday when we will know all of the results. So we'll pick through those.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

Do you not think they will have bare bones by Tuesday?

[Ian Dale]

Well, who knows? I mean, Keir Starmer might have resigned by then, so. Yeah, I don't think. I don't think he will either. But do you know what?

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

I was listening to him. His voice is terrible. He can't help it. But it's got Ed Miliband overtones. Haven't they learned about selecting nasal leaders? It shouldn't matter, ladies and gentlemen, but it does. And I wish it didn't.

[Ian Dale]

But then again, you look at all the other contenders to take over from him, and you see, if I was a Labour Party supporter or member and had to vote in that election, I mean, I do know who I would vote for. For. But it's not the best lineup, is it? If you think about. Well, if the object is to win the next election, it's not one where anybody is going to set the pulses of the electorate racing. It might set the pulses of the Labour Party members racing, but they're very, very different.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

The right are most afraid of West Streeting. That's all I'm going to say on that note.

[Ian Dale]

I'm not sure about afraid, but I. I think he would be the most formidable one of them. Although I don't underestimate Angela Rayner. I really don't.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

She's not up for grabs at the moment. We're streeting for me. End of pod.

[Ian Dale]

Bye.

[Dr. Tessa Dunlop]

This has been a global player original production.