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- [00:03]
A
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:06]
B
I've spent quite a bit of today texting Labour MPs. Let me read out a couple to you. Overwhelming feeling of. Is that it? For what was meant to be the speech of his life. He needs to go. Another one. It's a complete shit show and we can't continue like this. Another one. He's toast.
- [00:24]
A
He's got to go. I think what he should have done this morning was either say, let's go back into the eu or he should say, it's a staged withdrawal from me. I'm going to make sure this is orderly and there'll be somebody new by Christmas.
- [00:38]
B
Well, Tessa, you are resplendent in orange. Is this to celebrate a Liberal Democrat victory last week?
- [00:44]
A
Do you think I look a bit like Equality Street? Shiny orange.
- [00:48]
B
What's your favourite quality Street?
- [00:50]
A
Well, definitely not the one in the orange wrapper.
- [00:52]
B
Oh, no, I like the orange ones.
- [00:53]
A
Well, don't eat me. Actually, this is a hand me down from the bird off the telly, as she calls herself Storm Huntley. Very generously gave me a collection of hand me downs last week and I've been wearing a different one each week. I mean, every day, actually, so I never need to go to.
- [01:08]
B
How does that conversation even happen, Tessa, would you like my second hand clothes?
- [01:13]
A
Because I think she realized that I go on her telly show. She knows what contributors get paid, and also that I need a high volume of colorful tops and that she had had two babies and was perhaps not, you know, the same.
- [01:28]
B
Careful, careful.
- [01:29]
A
But I mean, I don't know, like, you know, it's just. I'm a different shape. I've lost my.
- [01:33]
B
I was gonna say you are a very different shape to her.
- [01:36]
A
Yeah, but I'm a different shape from what I was.
- [01:37]
B
I'm not saying that in a bad or good way.
- [01:39]
A
Jesus. This is just not where it was meant to go. We were meant to talk about my little brother, which is another bear pick. But, you know, clearly not as much of a bear pick.
- [01:46]
B
Well, he won.
- [01:48]
A
I am the new Rachel Johnson.
- [01:51]
B
You are, aren't you? Yeah, 100% in so many ways.
- [01:54]
A
I'm just gonna write inappropriate articles about exotic princesses and have a longer and longer fridge to hide my wrinkly forehead
- [02:00]
B
and talk about being naked in Turkish saunas.
- [02:02]
A
But luckily, as Jacob Rees Mogg texted me.
- [02:05]
B
Did he now?
- [02:06]
A
See, your brother is a unionist north of the border, I thought, yeah. Jacob, what do you think? We Crazy independence in my family.
- [02:14]
B
So are you basking in his Reflective glory.
- [02:16]
A
I like to think I helped him along the way. He's one of our most dedicated listeners to the pod.
- [02:21]
B
He is.
- [02:22]
A
So we are.
- [02:23]
B
And has conflicting views sometimes, which you would expect for a Liberal Democrat.
- [02:26]
A
He criticises you quite a lot, I think, obviously, naturally, being my sibling, thinks I'm perfect.
- [02:32]
B
But I also think we all know the truth of that.
- [02:36]
A
The problem is he's been on this endless campaign trail, really, for two sets of the second election, because he contested the general election as a MP and Douglas Alexander beat him. You'll remember, famously, when I jumped into Douglas Alexander and I said, oh, you did a hustings with my wee brother and do you remember what he said?
- [02:56]
B
God, I can't remember.
- [02:58]
A
Oh, he was so angry for a Liberal Democrat.
- [03:03]
B
And your brother's 6 foot 5 and Douglas Alexander's about 5 foot 2, 100.
- [03:08]
A
I've been the recipient of the anger. Dougie Alexander. Only the difference was there was no public audience.
- [03:15]
B
Do you. I mean, you are quite tall for. For a woman, aren't you? Have you always found that to be helpful in life?
- [03:20]
A
I think it's different as a woman. I think it definitely does embolden the authority gap. You benefit from it hugely. I noticed at the Christmas party, people were sort of instinctively more impressed by you simply because of the.
- [03:32]
B
Not by what I said or did, just because I was tall.
- [03:35]
A
Do much or say March. I mean, you were sober, but. But, you know, in you came and you also had quite an expensive jacket on and you bought a bottle of champagne and I think those three things alone set you apart, really meant that
- [03:48]
B
all your friends saw it as an arrogant tosser.
- [03:51]
A
No, it was a great bottle.
- [03:53]
B
I know you. You drank it there and then.
- [03:55]
A
I didn't.
- [03:56]
B
You'll remember. He did.
- [03:57]
A
Yeah. So you still need to give me a bottle of champagne. You can give me it to celebrate my little brother's entry into Holyrood. Just for context, he was the list candidate for the Liberal Democrats in the south of Scotland. We have to thank his wife and. Who's been looking after my mother quite a lot recently. And also his daughter, who's likewise been looking after my mother quite a lot, while Duncan swanned off in a camper van to press. No, but he's very.
- [04:24]
B
While you've resolutely stayed south of the border, he.
- [04:26]
A
He has considerable charm, Duncan, and is a unionist. So I think, therefore, in Scotland, a force for the good. I'm not sure how impressive the MSP cohort is in Holyrood. There's Obviously, nearly half of them are new, but I don't think necessarily the best politicians stay in Scotland. So I think it's good he's in there.
- [04:45]
B
And did you know that I broke the news of his election on my program and congratulated him?
- [04:50]
A
Well, I shared that with him. There's a sense now, I think, and
- [04:55]
B
he will have listened back because all politicians are narcissistic. Narcissistic enough to do so.
- [04:59]
A
But he's been very busy, having parties and so forth, celebrating. And he said he got 500 messages of congratulations and I think he's been kind of overwhelmed, really, by the response because it's quite a big deal. There's far.
- [05:13]
B
Just a big deal.
- [05:14]
A
Fewer, if you think, in, I think. How many SNPs are there?
- [05:18]
B
129. No, no MSPs. Yeah, yeah. Of which the Liberal Democrats have, I think, nine.
- [05:25]
A
So that's a. He's a big fish now and.
- [05:28]
B
Well, for a Liberal Democrat.
- [05:29]
A
Yeah. And. But they could be in coalition with the snp. Sweeney has said, Swinney said anybody but Reform.
- [05:35]
B
No, it'll be the Greens.
- [05:36]
A
I'm sure it'll be the Greens because they're the only other independent facing party. But the point is, he's, you know, one stride, one six foot, five stride away from the levers of Scottish power,
- [05:48]
B
you know, it doesn't get better than that.
- [05:50]
A
It surely doesn't. So I just need to start writing for the national or something.
- [05:55]
B
I don't think they'd have you somewhere, you.
- [05:58]
C
Right.
- [05:59]
A
I'll take crumbs off another master's table. Ian to the left. No, Ian to the right of me. Duncan to the left. Anyway, moving on.
- [06:07]
B
What kind of Lib Dem is he? Is he sort of beard and sandals or the Orange Book? He's quite right. He's quite right wing. Yeah.
- [06:16]
A
Let's see. I was thinking maybe. I was listening because we're going to talk about. I should. We should flag up. We're going to talk about a little bit about 100th anniversary of the general strike. And I was reminded of Churchill. He just moved across from Liberal to Conservative and he was running the government's newspaper because obviously all the printers were on strike. And I thought, oh, maybe in the future, Duncan, like, if he didn't manage, because the Liberal Democrats are unlikely ever to be the ruling. The governing party in Scotland, I shouldn't be saying this on air, should I? But I was just. He's not that right. Do you know, I'm talking out of my ass. I don't really know what his politics are. I just reposted him because I know that he is a pro union person. He's got a long history in children in care, which I think is one of those unseen issues. And I think that he'll generally be a force for the good and therefore I support him. And I don't want to say that he could cross the floor like Winston
- [07:10]
B
Church to the Conservatives. Go on, Duncan, you know you want to.
- [07:14]
A
I'm sure you were.
- [07:16]
B
I spent Saturday evening with the Liberal Democrat mp, Mike Martin, the Lib Demp for Tom, because he was interviewing me about my book and I mean, we are going to release it on my All Talk podcast because it was quite an interesting chat and we basically worked out that there isn't really much of a difference between us apart from on Brexit. We agree on virtually everything apart from that.
- [07:39]
A
Well, there you go. But we know that you make a weird wet conservative, which is perhaps why you never did a Duncan and.
- [07:46]
B
Well, that's kind of. He sort of said something similar to that. But I said when I. My politics essentially, apart from maybe on one or two social issues haven't really changed over the years, so I still regard myself as a down the line economic Thatcherite, but a social liberal. And that nowadays makes you a wet. Well, in. In the 1980s, when she coined that phrase, the Wets, they were the sort of Heathite, one nation to. That's not the case anymore. The whole sort of Overton window has changed, hasn't it? So what was right in the 1980s is considered a bit lefty now.
- [08:23]
A
I prefer the term caring conservative and I.
- [08:27]
B
It's so wussy.
- [08:29]
A
But actually what I was so struck by, I know it's just in my own. Through my own little prism of the Romanian GCSE campaign, but actually the likes of Caroline Noakes, who really responded to the requests of Romanian mothers and her constituency, who kind of openly came out and said. And Harriet Baldwin openly came out in public in a. In a sort of Westminster meeting and said, I'm really for this, I'm going to campaign for it. And I thought, gosh, well, that doesn't
- [08:54]
B
make them lefty conservatives.
- [08:56]
A
No, but it does make them caring conservatives, caring for the individual needs of their constituents.
- [09:01]
B
But Jacob Rees Mogg would have done the same if he'd been an mp.
- [09:04]
A
Yes, but weirdly, I think that that nasty party idea, do you remember Theresa May addressed it? He said, we're seen as a nasty party. And I actually think because they've been so preoccupied chasing down reform. And let's come to this about where they're going to go next, because all the attention at the moment's on Starmer and the Labour Party. It's kind of disguised the fact that the Conservatives had a thorough drubbing as well, in fact.
- [09:27]
B
Well, should we come on to that? Yeah, let's finish the fluffy bit and we'll come on to. So the first bit of the podcast. Well, now the second bit we're going to talk about. Well, particularly Starmer's speech this morning because we're recording this on Monday afternoon, but also the overhang of the whole election results because I think, although I think we both did predict them relatively accurately, there were one or two things for one or two of the parties which I think we should pull out and discuss then. You want to talk about the general strike?
- [09:57]
A
Yeah, I think something very interesting about the extraordinary difference between Britain 100 years ago and Britain today. And I would pinpoint a lot of Labor's current problems, not just on the fact Keir Starmer talks like a robot and believes it's delivery. Delivery and not actually performance and direction, but also that then it was about the collective and now it's about the individual. And if you're thinking about the individual, not the collective, that leaves you much freer to make any goddamn political choice you want. Break.
- [10:38]
B
The local elections seem a long time ago, but they were actually only, what, four days? And the results were still coming in on Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening. And in the end, Labour lost just under 1500 seats. Reform gained just under 1500 seats. The Liberal Democrats gained, what was it, 300 odd? I think Greens 400 odd. Tories lost 500 odd. Who have we missed out? I think that that's. And Labour. No, we've done Labour. Well, Plaid Cymru, they obviously were the big winners in Wales, which we predicted they would be. They're forming the administration. It'll be a minority one. The SNP were obviously the big winners in Scotland, which is incredible when you think about it, because let's put it this way, they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory over the past few years.
- [11:25]
A
No, but what's interesting is John Swinney benefits from being literally the dullest man in the room. Somehow I think that's taken the heat out of all the party scandals and even independence. Ridiculous. I say this as a copper bottomed unionist. Feels less scary in his hands because you look at him think, you ain't gonna deliver it, mate.
- [11:46]
B
Y and I think the interesting thing there is I think it's given his tenure as First Minister a bit of a boost because I thought that once the elections were over, he would probably go quite quickly. I don't think that anymore. I think he's around for at least a couple more years.
- [12:00]
A
But also, as I think we mentioned in the last pod, he's the sort of person that other parties could coalesce around because he's not.
- [12:07]
B
He's not threatening.
- [12:08]
A
Exactly.
- [12:08]
B
Whereas Nicola Sturgeon always was a bit
- [12:10]
A
room for others to shine.
- [12:11]
B
Yeah. And I mean, it's going to be very interesting to see if he gives Stephen Flynn a position in his government because of course, Stephen Flynn is currently the MP for Aberdeen South. I think it is. Well, he's. There's going to be a by election now in Aberdeen south because he's now a member of the Scottish Parliament, as is Stephen Gethens, who was MP for Northeast 5. Lost his seat the last election was elected for Arbroathan Brochtiferi. Have I announced that? And so he's now, I think, Dundee east in the Scottish Parliament. So will he include those two in his administration? And will Stephen Flynn agitate to succeed John Swinney? Because Stephen Flynn doesn't hide his light under a bushel? It's fair to say, yeah.
- [12:58]
A
I find him fairly divisive.
- [13:01]
B
I really like him.
- [13:02]
A
Okay. Well, it's good we have differing opinions on Stephen Flynn. I'll make sure that Duncan invites him around for drinky poos in Dunbar one day so I can get a better handle on his personality. Either that or perhaps it's very fun. You would get on with him, Pollinate at Cross Question. Have me on with him, would you, next?
- [13:18]
B
Well, I doubt whether we'll have him on again because he won't be in London, will he? That's the problem.
- [13:23]
A
It's a bit of a loss.
- [13:24]
B
Yeah. I mean, I'm quite sad because he's. He's. I would say of all the mps I interview, he would be sort of in the top 10 for being entertaining. You can have a good Josh with him. He doesn't take. Even if you ask him really difficult questions. He accepts.
- [13:38]
A
Did he just go back? Was he just kind of homesick?
- [13:40]
B
No, he just thinks that's where the action's going to be now. And they only had nine MPs after the last election, so I think his leadership before the last election was much more fun than it's been since, so. And he's got young family.
- [13:54]
A
He's a big beast.
- [13:55]
B
You can understand it.
- [13:55]
A
I think What John Swinney needs are some big beasts around him. That's the truth. And we know who he is. And also people who speak beyond the Scottish border.
- [14:03]
B
And of course, they've lost Angus Robertson, who was quite a big beast in Westminster, and he lost his seat to the Greens in Edinburgh and didn't get on in the list. So he's out completely. And he's somebody that. Had there been a leadership election after John Swinney, he would have been a contender. Not now.
- [14:19]
A
Maybe it'll just be an inheritance.
- [14:21]
B
Maybe he'll go for one of the Westminster seats in Aberdeenshire.
- [14:25]
A
Possibly. I mean, you know, once they get the political bug, I thought, my God. So my brother's 50 this year, so stonk. If you didn't want anyone to know their age. Oh, I'm hoping he'll come on and have a chat with us. Be our first ever guest. Yeah, outside.
- [14:35]
B
Corey. Corey. Make it happen.
- [14:36]
A
Yeah, make it happen. Obviously he's very busy. I was lucky he replied to my text today. Naturally. Just. You know how Rachel Johnson doesn't always like you to mention Boris. Do you think that's what I'm going to get like around my brother? I'm going to be like a conduit to Duncan?
- [14:50]
B
I. I think it's possibly not going to be quite the same in that I don't think Duncan is. I mean, I hear. Have you never met? Have I met him?
- [14:58]
A
No, no. Met him. I invited you to Dunbar, but you
- [15:01]
B
said it was too far. Yeah, I mean, I. I think compared to Boris Johnson, and I'm not being horrible, but I suspect that Dunk is a little bit charismatically challenged compared to Boris.
- [15:13]
A
Oh, he won't take that politely. We'll save that up as a question for the end of the pod. Dunk less charisma than Boris.
- [15:20]
B
Does he make a good speech?
- [15:22]
A
He did a good one at my dad's wake. It was really funny. I did a better one, obviously.
- [15:25]
B
Obviously.
- [15:26]
A
I mean, naturally, I'm more talented than both you and my little brother, but,
- [15:29]
B
you know, authority, we take that for.
- [15:31]
A
I don't have a piece.
- [15:31]
B
Anyway, let's get on to the main issue because I think we did that sort of the thing that we weren't calling an emergency pod, because that would have been crass. The extra podcast where most of the results have come in. So we don't need to go through the results again.
- [15:47]
A
God, no.
- [15:48]
B
But we do need to talk about Keir Starmer's make it or break it speech this morning. Now, you were Busy, weren't you? I don't watch it. Oh, you did watch it.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah.
- [15:57]
B
Okay, will you start then? What did you make of it?
- [16:00]
A
I wrote, I took notes. I take. I can't do his little funny little robot voice. Take responsibility.
- [16:06]
B
Take responsibility.
- [16:08]
A
That hurts. And it should hurt. I get it. I feel it. Take responsibility.
- [16:13]
B
And I'm like, kier, I get it. I feel it. Let it happen naturally.
- [16:18]
A
The problem is, if I cut you, Kir, would you bleed like I, I, I. There's something about him. I want to believe him. I want to feel. He's feeling my pain.
- [16:26]
B
Did you see when he did a piece to camera with Chris Mason? I think it was on Saturday. They were at some community cent, obviously. And a friend of mine texted me. He says, I think the computer's malfunctioned and that he. He stopped halfway through a sentence and couldn't quite remember what he'd been told to say. It's quite sad.
- [16:46]
A
He. Well, except, do you know that all this kind of faux concern about how long Keir Starmer's gonna remain in the job for, it's clearly he's a marked man. He's not gonna stay in the job. By the time we get to Christmas, he will be out. There's no way he's gonna be popping up in our Christmas stocking. But I just, I'm like so many millions of people. Not millions, but thousands of politicians all over the country on Friday lost their jobs who actually have much less of a financial buffer. And I'm kind of over feeling sorry for Keir Starmer. He's not got it. Whatever it is that it takes, he ain't got it. And I think you do have to have a heft of charisma if you're up against the likes of Farage and even, dare I say it, Zach Polanski, you can't inject the X factor.
- [17:27]
B
You mean the tax dodging Zach Polanski?
- [17:29]
A
Oh, yeah, they're all filthy.
- [17:30]
B
Have you seen this story?
- [17:32]
A
Wow.
- [17:32]
B
He apparently lives in a houseboat in North London. That's where he's registered to vote. And he's never paid council tax on it.
- [17:41]
A
Can't you float and go into a different part of the river?
- [17:43]
B
And then you owe money, you still have to register where you live. And apparently the Green Party's excuse is that, well, he hasn't spent many nights there. That doesn't matter. If you are registered for council tax, you have to pay it.
- [17:57]
A
It's kind of extraordinary how bad politicians are at dotting the I'S and crossing the T's. I thought I was bad, you know, oh, panicking about my VAT or my tax or something. But they all drop the ball all the time. Is it because they're so busy, do you think, thinking about the top line in their manifesto? I mean, I'm busy thinking about the top line for my podcast, but that doesn't stop me paying my taxes, doing the duties.
- [18:23]
B
Anyway, back to Keir Starmer. Did he give you any sense of. That he recognizes the hole that he's in? Did he give you any sense that he's got some ideas to adopt a different approach that will convince Labour MPs that he's capable of changing?
- [18:42]
A
No. What was fascinating was he started talking about the dangerous opponents. It hurts particularly not just because of all these characters who've lost their jobs, but also because these dangerous opponents, I think in some cases reform councillors, those that got in, they were sort of just list tickets, weren't they? And they've had to go and dig them up from the dead, you know, delete all their racist tweets or God knows what. There's an extraordinary cohort coming into local councils all over the country, many of whom aren't qualified, and that does hurt. I don't know if that qualifies them as dangerous.
- [19:11]
B
Same with the Greens.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah, for sure, but. But I think there's more in the reform camp that perhaps weren't even expecting to get on the ticket.
- [19:19]
B
Yeah. And to be fair, that happens at most elections where I. I can remember in the 1983 election, the first I ever went to the House of Commons. I mean, quite an occasion. The first time you ever walk into that building and we were sitting on the terrace having a drink, and this newly elected Conservative MP for Barrow in Furness comes and sits down. Cecil Franks. And I remember saying to him, bear in mind, I was, what, 20 at the time? 21. I said, well, you don't look very happy, considering you've just won your seat. He said, no, because I never thought I would and I didn't want to. I've got a really successful legal career and that's all gone up the Swanee. And of course, he knew that he wouldn't be an MP for that long because it was a marginal seat. I think he lasted till 92 or maybe. Maybe 97. But, yeah, there's always a lot of those.
- [20:06]
A
But what's interesting is that Keir Starmer's saying, I'm going to take responsibility, we're going to do better, but we know that he doesn't know how to do better because he's been telling us he's going to do better for two years and nothing's changed. He then threw out two or three policies we've already heard before, the idea of nationalizing steel. Well, already the government's basically taken it over.
- [20:25]
B
And as somebody said, well, if you were going to do that, why didn't you do it first of all? And then you could have saved all those jobs in Port Talbot.
- [20:32]
A
Well, yeah, except the Port Talbot thing was actually on the Tory ticket, not on Labours.
- [20:37]
B
No, no, they. No, they could have saved it if they'd nationalized it, they could have saved it.
- [20:42]
A
Moving on to his other. Like John Major. Except let's not forget, under John Major, we were in Europe and he's trying to mend what Thatcher did. He goes, I'm going to put us back at the heart of Europe. So. But when Keir Starmer says this, but we're like, yeah, mate, but all those lines you drew in the sand about Customs Union and we can't be at the heart of Europe. We all know that we can't, so stop pretending.
- [21:02]
B
If he had said, I have come to the conclusion, as your Prime Minister, I think we should rejoin the European
- [21:08]
A
Union, that would be ballsy, that.
- [21:09]
B
Well, it would have been ballsy. And that's all we would now be talking about. We wouldn't be talking about anything else but that. But not only did he not do that, he didn't blur his red lines on Customs Union or single market at all.
- [21:22]
A
Can't give us anything.
- [21:23]
B
From my point of view. Good. But I mean, from his point of view, he can't explain how he can make Britain at the heart of Europe. He mentioned this sort of youth opportunities scheme. I know for a fact that isn't going to happen anytime soon because the EU's demands on that are so horrific that no British government could agree to them. So that's not going to happen.
- [21:44]
A
But the other thing is, we need a new leader, probably, because whether it's hard lines on Europe in the manifesto or hard lines around not introducing a penny on income tax, on national insurance, for example, clear spaces where the Labour Party could go for a bit of financial leverage. He can't do that because he was elected in leading a party that said it wouldn't do it. A new leader could actually look at unpicking some of that stuff. He's got to go. I think what he should have done this morning was either say, let's go back into the eu, then I would have lent into Labour so hard I've had blood on my forehead. Or he should say, it's a staged withdrawal from me. I'm going to make sure this is orderly and there'll be somebody new by Christmas that wouldn't be great for the markets, but I don't suppose the markets are liking this anyway.
- [22:26]
B
Well, I'm really glad you raised that because I have started thinking about that, because if you look at the bond yields at the moment, they are higher than they were under Liz Truss. Now, can you imagine if there is, I mean, say Keir Starmer did in the next few days announce, well, you know, the game's up, I know I've got to go. So you have a period, however long it would be, of political instability that is going to wreak havoc. And I can almost guarantee that during that time period the bank of England would then put interest rates up again. And the consequences of that, not just for individual household budgets, people with mortgages, but for the economy, would be absolutely disastrous. And if I was a Labour MP now thinking, shall I sort of go over the top or not, that would be a consideration for me. But I'm not sure they think like that.
- [23:20]
A
Also, half of them can't go because they're either trying to sort out their stamp duty or they're trying to find a new constituency to get elected into Parliament through.
- [23:27]
B
Can you explain to me, though, what the political thinking was behind his initial reaction to the results was to bring back Gordon Brown and Harriet Harmon. I mean, the most extraordinary, ill judged, politically tone deaf move you could imagine
- [23:46]
A
that he could make, it's like digging up the dead.
- [23:48]
B
And of course, that photograph of him and Gordon Brown Outside number 10, there's all sorts of Internet memes have started on that sort of. Gordon, can you tell us how we should sell off more gold or stuff like that?
- [24:00]
A
I mean, I thought Gordon was a great Chancellor actually, given he made mistakes. I mean, it's very hard to get
- [24:05]
B
to have a three, but it hardly, it hardly demonstrates the willingness to change, does it? It really doesn't. It's back to the future.
- [24:14]
A
I agree. It doesn't suggest that Keir Starmer's got any of his own ideas they've been wanting from the beginning. You've got to have a Starmer plan. He doesn't have a plan. He came into government saying, I don't have a plan. How can he expect people to coalesce and get in behind him if he doesn't have a plan? In fact, I think My little brother, statistically got in on the list and he'd be the next person in line was the. The Labour candidate. And so my family is a winner. Thanks very much. Because kiss Thomas.
- [24:44]
B
One of the few families to win under who Wrong.
- [24:47]
A
Hope you get better Christmas presents. Do you know. Do you know about that? That kind of. The sibling stuff. And I came home, I was quite. Kind of feeling quite buoyed up about it. And the next day I said, tomorrow, what do you reckon he's going to want as an smp? This is my daughter. And she said, oh, I already 77,000. And I said, how do you know? She said, oh, me and dad looked it up last night. So I said, oh, yeah, sly eyes. I thought that was quite telling.
- [25:11]
B
So does that mean he earns more than you?
- [25:13]
A
Oh, yeah, for sure. He has more than me and more than Dan.
- [25:15]
B
That'll go down well.
- [25:16]
A
Yeah. Well, it just means he's got more money. He's got. He earns the most in the family and we'll be expecting to see some of it.
- [25:22]
B
I've spent quite a bit of today texting Labour mps. Just saying to them, off the record, just interested, so I can gauge the opinion on the back benches. And in fact, I sent to some ministers as well. I said, do you think Starmer will last now? I sent 50 texts out. I must admit I've been quite surprised at the reaction.
- [25:49]
A
What was it?
- [25:50]
B
Well, I haven't counted them up yet because I want to sort of do this on my show tonight. So, I mean, I. I have copied and pasted some of the responses. I mean, they were off the record, so I can't attribute them. But let me read out a couple to you. This one, I'm afraid he simply doesn't accept that people have tuned out. Also, no acknowledgment of the moral vacuum over Palestine that drove a lot of people away. Or the Mandelson Boys Club. Sadly, it's just words again, written in a way to evoke emotions about his mum and dad, who are meant to believe, who we are meant to believe. Spent their twilight discussing their contributions to the country. Nonsense. I mean. Oh, quite. Yeah, quite to the point. Another one. Overwhelming feeling of. Is that it? For what was meant to be the speech of his life. He needs to go. Another one. It's a complete shit show and we can't continue like this. Another one. He's toast. But then there were some supportive ones, but much fewer. No speech is ever going to make a huge difference, hence I didn't listen to it. He's got a mandate and we've got to use it, and that's the only way for that. I see. Blah, blah, blah. Another one. It was a bit wet, but I don't see any alternatives.
- [27:05]
A
You're such a little gossip. He's a gossip.
- [27:08]
B
It's not about gossip. It's trying to gauge what labor mps are thinking. And I would say half of them didn't reply. Now, you can come up with all sorts of reasons for that. Maybe they're thinking, well, I'm not going to tell him because he's such a gossip. Or they could have all replied saying, no, Keir Starmer is our leader and he's here to stay. But they didn't. Of the 50 I've had, I think five messages of support and about 15 of not.
- [27:38]
A
Well, I think that tells us all we need to know. And now, because there's not enough history in this podcast, we're going to a break and we're coming back a hundred years from now. No, that's not right. 100 years in the past. How do you say that?
- [27:51]
B
Eloquently.
- [27:52]
A
Hence. Hence.
- [27:53]
B
No, no, that's in the future, isn't it?
- [27:55]
A
That up.
- [27:55]
B
You know what I mean. You know what she means. She knows what she means. I know what she. Break. Corey. There are two books out at the moment on the general strike because it is the centenary of the general strike and I think we're recording this on Monday and it's the penultimate day of the general strike, so it would have ended on tomorrow. That's. That's the actual centenary. I was a bit annoyed. Annoyed on behalf of my friend David Torrance, who's written one of these books. He's Scottish, written lots of books on Scottish politics. So he's written this book on the general strike. And the Sunday Times yesterday reviewed the other one. Why didn't they review them both together?
- [28:38]
A
Well, I don't know, but he's had quite a lot of coverage. He did a very good start the week on Radio 4.
- [28:43]
B
Right?
- [28:43]
A
Yeah. So I wouldn't worry about him too much.
- [28:45]
B
I won't then.
- [28:46]
A
Interestingly, at the very end of the general strike, the King addressed the nation. Actually, that's not true. He wrote in his diary. Subsequently, it's a bit different. Yes. Subsequently, it's been read out in front of the nation, so I got into confusion. He said, during the last nine days, a strike that affected 4 million men, during which not a shot was fired and no one was killed. And it shows what a wonderful people we are. That's what George V concluded, that because it hadn't led to literally a civil war, because there were huge fears, especially given the backdrop of the Russian revolution and how violent that had become, that actually this strike, which had contaminated the whole of Britain's industrial muscle, was going to impact hugely, not just on our ability to feed ourselves and heat ourselves, but actually to stay safe, that police would have to open fire and they didn't. And George V thought it showed a wonderful British character, but he's actually wrong. According to your friend David Torrance's book, people did die, but they died through accidents because of all the lords and ladies trying to drive the buses and crashing into things.
- [29:58]
B
Is that right? See, I'm sort of slightly embarrassed in that I don't really know an awful lot about the general strike. I know there was this newspaper paper that Churchill put out.
- [30:09]
A
No British Gazette, that's it. State propaganda. Can you give me Churchill's nickname at this time?
- [30:15]
B
No.
- [30:16]
A
Mussolini. Major. He was a bit of a hot head. And it was fascinating because there'd been this terrible set to between the coal mining barons, the owners of the mines, and the workers who had it pretty good. We referenced this the other day. In World War I, they were top of the walk, really, in terms of the industry boys, the coal miners, because of the need during the Great War, one in 10 male workers worked in
- [30:45]
B
coal, is that right?
- [30:47]
A
In the 1920s, between 1 in 10 and 1 in 11. And if you think then also of their wives, most of whom didn't work, so the extent of their dependence, their children, etc. Even before you took it to the other two big unions, a strike, a coal strike, was always a big deal.
- [31:02]
B
And also, even if you think, well, 70 years later, when there was the miners strike in the 1980s, you still had communities where literally every single male worked down the mine. And there were other sort of heavy industries which were the same, the docks, which I got to know very well in the late 80s. Jobs were literally handed down from father to son, obviously not to daughter, because they didn't believe in that sort of thing. And I think we've lost sight of this nowadays, where you don't really get particular areas that are just so dominated by one particular sector and those sectors
- [31:40]
A
forming your identity, the idea that you're part of something, part of a movement, helping each other deliver, like you're greater than the sum of your parts. And I think this is the key to what, beyond Keir Starmer's personality, is actually insisting that Labour's coming unstuck. And I don't think think a leader change will save it, necessarily. It's something existential about the nature of work. If you think nowadays it's all about mental health and working from home. And there is. I think it's something like 23% of workers in Britain belong to a union. Or is that 23% of public sector workers? It's lower. I know in the private sector, it's.
- [32:19]
B
I don't know. But union membership, I think, is on the slight increase at the moment, but from a. I mean, having gone down from what, 7 million to about 4 million. But let's not run away with the fact that the general strike was all about the miners. It wasn't. There were lots of other. And that's why it's called a general strike. And I remember in my own village, where I grew up in Essex, the agricultural workers went on strike and they were. I mean, their working conditions were simply appalling. I mean, some people would say they still are in many ways, and they were quite radical, which you think, for a small village in Essex, was quite something.
- [33:00]
A
And I think it's also worth bearing in mind because we often talk about the general strike, but we don't really talk about its outcome, what happened, how it ended, because it could have gone on and on, lives could have been lost. The Emergency Powers act was kicked in. England was turned into sort of fiefdom. Scotland did its own thing, as usual. Ditto Wales. There were special constables making sure that the nation got fed. As we know, all the sort of bourgeois middle classes were trying to drive the tube trains and crashing into each. There was also the sort of educated, the literazi, who were hugely impacted. Evelyn Warwick Literazi? Yeah, that's what literati. The wordies, including Hugh Gates School, who was an undergraduate at Oxford and he came out inside of the miners. Most, of course, I think, tended the upper class, have sympathy with the coal barons, not with the miners. The government tried to pretend it was taking a sort of, you know, sit back and watch what's going on. Stanley Baldwin it's the first emergency address to the nation using the BBC. About a million people have radios or wirelesses, as they were called at this point. The reason why it ends is because they immediately start looking for an off ramp. Ernest Bevan Key the TUC don't really have a clear direction. They kind of get on board, but they don't know the direction of travel or really understand what's going to happen. They haven't got a decent Handle on it. They're looking for an off ramp. In comes Sir Herbert Samuel. Guess where he had just arrived back from, except from his holiday in Italy, what his job had been before he solved or ended rather this struggle. Strike.
- [34:24]
B
I don't know.
- [34:26]
A
I mean, 1920s, what's happening mid-20s, what's. What's a hot. Hot part of the hot part of the British Empire, India, High Commissioner. He is.
- [34:35]
B
Canada, Australia.
- [34:36]
A
No, no idea. I think much more contemporary. Ireland, Palestine, being the High Commissioner.
- [34:42]
B
Oh, really?
- [34:43]
A
Oh, yes. So he knew about negotiations and he knew about negotiating to make it look like he was helping everyone.
- [34:50]
B
But in fact, you should explain, he was a liberal politician and in fact, I think briefly was Liberal leader in the 1930s. And there's a joke about. I can't remember who told this, probably Churchill. So when they circumcised Herbert Samuel, they threw away the wrong bit.
- [35:08]
A
You're appalling. Anyway, he'd already chaired a commission on the coal industry. It is. He basically comes up with a deal that the miners, the unions are kind of duped into believing the government's going to deliver, but there is no obligation, there's nothing, there's no teeth in the deal. And in the end, the miners are defeated and the next miners strike isn't until 1972. And they haven't forgotten and they win. They win that strike in 1972.
- [35:40]
B
They. Did you say that was such relish. Because, you see, if they hadn't won that strike, it's possible to argue that Margaret Thatcher wouldn't have happened.
- [35:49]
A
I don't know. You already had Heath later on in the 70s. Who governs Britain a couple of years later, I think.
- [35:54]
B
Yeah, but that was the whole point. Had the miners not been so radical in the early 1970s, Heath may not have fallen and therefore Thatcher. I mean, I think if Heath had won the 74 elections, Thatcher would have stayed in the cabinet but in a relatively minor role. And I don't think she would have ever been seen as a leader. So you can actually blame the National Union of Mine Workers for Margaret Thatcher.
- [36:17]
A
And indeed, you can say that their victory in 72 informs her subsequent preparation, where she puts Nicholas Ridley. He's doing a detailed plan policing how to make sure you've stockpiled enough coal. All those sorts of things had been thought about before, informed by 72.
- [36:35]
B
Yeah, because if you think about it, in 1981, the miners put in a ridiculous pay claim and they weren't ready for a miners strike, so they agreed to the pay claim and there were lots of Tory MPs that were furious about that. And she had to go, essentially go round them all saying, no, no, we're not ready. And in 1984, Nigel Lawson had taken over as Energy Secretary. And the coal stockpiles, which Scargill should have known. Maybe he did know. He's still around, you know, Arthur Scargill, he's in his mid-90s now and. And that really was a repeat of the First World War. Lions led by donkeys. And he was the donkey.
- [37:13]
A
Breaking news. Got a very important guest coming on next.
- [37:16]
B
We have.
- [37:17]
A
So it's time for a break.
- [37:22]
D
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- [37:54]
A
Hello.
- [37:55]
C
Hello.
- [37:56]
B
Duncan Dunlop, msp. We are, we are honored, sir. Can I say that?
- [38:02]
C
Well, that's very kind of you, Ian. It means a lot coming from you.
- [38:05]
B
Well, I mean, as somebody who has never won an election in his life, apart from the school mock election in 1979, I'm. I mean, I know what it will mean to you to have done that, because you have stood before and you weren't certain that you were going to win. So when you, when did you first become aware that you were actually going to get on, get the winning winning slot on the list?
- [38:29]
C
About, I'd say about seven or eight minutes beforehand. The Green Party had been very efficient at counting votes across 10 constituencies and one of them came through and said, we think you've got not to get across the line. Up to that point we were convinced we weren't.
- [38:45]
B
And what went through your mind at that moment?
- [38:48]
C
Still cynicism and doubt until I saw it written down.
- [38:51]
B
Oh, see, I thought you'd be thinking, fuck you, Tessa.
- [38:54]
A
No, I was very supportive of Duncan. Fuck you, Ian.
- [38:59]
C
She was really supportive when the polls had closed and she started doing videos. It was really useful.
- [39:03]
A
That is so unfair. I need to get Corey in here. I spoke at length in support of my brother and Corey cut it.
- [39:10]
C
I forgot to give Cory a bit of a bollocking for that.
- [39:12]
A
Yeah, yeah. Incidentally, and Ian, is this two faced? You would have been a perfect politician. You're so two faced, Ian. He's already said earlier on in the pod, Duncan, that he doesn't think I will be the next Rachel Johnson, because it's unlikely you have, quote unquote, as much charisma as Boris Johnson.
- [39:28]
B
But nobody does.
- [39:29]
A
Wait, let's Duncan charisma us.
- [39:33]
C
I think you need to have charisma in the right spaces and times.
- [39:36]
A
It's you put down, Ian.
- [39:37]
B
No, I think it's you put down. I think it's entirely legitimate point of view.
- [39:41]
C
John Quinney doesn't have charisma, Ian.
- [39:43]
B
No, that is very true. Yeah. But that's almost a strength of his at the moment, isn't it?
- [39:48]
C
Well, Keir Starmer doesn't have charisma.
- [39:50]
B
That's not a strength for him.
- [39:51]
A
No, but it's a very different gig north of the border. When you're looking to form a coalition, do you think think you are going to get into bed with the SNP or is it definitely going to be the Greens?
- [40:00]
C
No, they'll end up running a minority government.
- [40:03]
A
And how often will you vote alongside the snp, do you think?
- [40:07]
C
Well, it totally depends on the case by case basis and what issue you're dealing with, but it's more about what you can get through in budget negotiations. From what I understand, this is my first day in this building and what's it like, understand how it works?
- [40:19]
A
Are you feeling like he was a school prefect? I was the only non prefect in my year and Duncan was a school pig. Do you feel like the day you were made a school prefect dunk?
- [40:27]
C
No, not at all.
- [40:28]
A
Oh, what does it feel like?
- [40:30]
C
What does it feel like? People ask that a lot today. It feels a bit weird. And there's a hell of a 600 people servicing 129 MSPs, which seems quite a lot. There's a very efficient induction system to sort of throw you through. I've only ever really worked for fairly meagerly resourced charities where you might get a laptop on day three or you employ yourself and you don't get any induction. So. So it's pretty full on. It's more that you want to be able to make it, trying to work out how you make a difference. And it's not just all about performative politics and a lot of people seem to be quite interested in social media and the like and it's around. I'm trying to get the right blend.
- [41:09]
B
And what kind of politician do you think you're going to be? Are you going to be a sort of unwhippable maverick like Nadine Doris? Or are you going to be a total loyalist like Pat McFadden?
- [41:20]
C
I'm now imagining both. Oh, I could do with Pat McFadden's waste side, but that's about it. And the Dean Doris, I wouldn't like anything. I mean, she does seem to have managed to. Never mind. I'll not say that. But yeah, I wouldn't fancy anything of her.
- [41:36]
A
Just to give you a certain idea
- [41:38]
C
of a sense of direction, I know why I'm standing. I will come back on. I do want to speak in Ian's program because at one time and I've listened just for every one of your podcasts, that was completely wrong. And all the time was around people in the kids. I said if we want to solve, if you want to solve issues around justice and bulging prisons, you want to deal with issues around street homelessness, you have to resolve the cases. And the one thing I would do, nod to advance. I care about how you're going to solve issues more than anything. Josh McAllister, the children's minister, is doing a good job. Now. I did work for him as an expert advisor in the care of Iran. Absolutely. Focusing in on how you can change that in England. So and that scenario area, I do have expertise and knowledge and it's not just about children and care. It's about every single negative social wellbeing indicator across the uk.
- [42:25]
B
I'm trying to remember what I, what I've said that you would have disagreed with on children.
- [42:29]
A
We'll come to it another day. I'm just realizing how heavy duty every single Christmas dinner is going to be from now on with Duncan mansplaining me from a Lib Dem perspective. You better give me good Christmas presents in future, Dunc. We've all checked out what you're earning and we know what you're working.
- [42:46]
C
I think the other thing you should realize is that Tessa, self employed, she dodges the facts all the time. She'll probably make just as much of you, but doesn't declare it.
- [42:53]
A
Ian is also self employed. He makes twice as much as both of us. Now off and go and be yellow. Okay.
- [42:59]
B
Many congratulations from all our listeners too.
- [43:02]
A
Yeah. And Ian would like you on his LBC show. You can have him as your little Hollywood. Hollywood. I keep on saying Hollywood.
- [43:08]
B
Yeah. Let's cross to our Hollywood.
- [43:10]
C
I need to get used to my, my, my, yeah. Media performance. But I'm sure you'll coach me in that test and not let me say anything.
- [43:17]
A
Just a bit of humor now and again. You can get heavy boots on the care thing, and I know you need to, and I know it's important, but you know, a joke every 10 words, I think.
- [43:25]
B
Right, look, we've got to go. Duncan, thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
- [43:29]
C
I think you're carry on telling each other to swear.
- [43:31]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [43:32]
C
And people enjoy that. Bye.
- [43:35]
B
I think he's only the second person we've actually done an interview with on the podcast.
- [43:39]
A
Quite a long time.
- [43:39]
C
Well, you won't be having any more of it.
- [43:43]
B
Let's go to a break.
- [43:49]
A
Well, what do you make of that then?
- [43:51]
B
Well, I mean, he seems like a nice guy and I genuinely am thrilled for him because I know what it will have meant to him. And see people who've never stood for election before probably just don't get it. And he's now got an opportunity for the next five years. Or is it four years? I can't remember.
- [44:10]
A
Five, I think.
- [44:11]
B
Is it?
- [44:11]
A
You're panicking me now.
- [44:12]
B
Anyway, whatever it is, he's actually got an opportunity to do something and he's clearly got the bit between his teeth on children's care and that is not a subject which gets a lot of attention either in England or Scotland. So if he plays it right, he could actually achieve something. And. And it's the sort of issue where if he does, if he tries to do something cross party, I suspect he could get some maybe legislation through if he plays his cards right.
- [44:39]
A
Yes. It's like, yeah, good for him. And I think he was a bit, knowing him as I do, a little bit nervous there, but you'd expect that on the first day if you weren't a bit nervous, you would be arrogant. You know, that sense of apprehension, it is a bit like the first day at school or university.
- [44:54]
B
I mean, he was nervous about talking to me, obviously.
- [44:56]
A
Naturally. A man of your stature. Jesus. So many 6 foot 5 entitled men
- [45:01]
B
surrounding me, ladies and gentlemen. You see, Tessa, if. If and when I meet Duncan, I will feel totally inadequate because I'm not used to talking to people taller than myself. And this is why I always have sympathy with very short people, because I always feel a sense of inferiority if I'm talking to someone taller than me.
- [45:19]
A
Oh my God, that says so much about you, doesn't it? What is known as the authority gap.
- [45:24]
B
Now we have some breaking news which you don't normally get on a podcast. Okay, let me hit you with this from Stephen Swinford on the Times. He's always a really good story breaker. Ministerial aides are now calling for Keir Starmer to go. West Streeting's PPS Joe Morris has resigned. Shabana Mahmood's PPS Sally Jamison has resigned. Emma Reynolds. PPS Tom Rutland has called for Starmer to go. Stephen Swimper says it feels like things are moving very quickly this evening. Tonya Antionazzi, your friend of mine, she's making a further statement tomorrow. Alex Ballinger, a loyalist of the Foreign Affairs Committee, he's also on this. He's one of the Labour MPs that I've had on cross question who I've been really impressed by X Forces. Really intelligent, nice guy, very eloquent. If you're losing people like Alex Ballinger, you are in deep shit.
- [46:20]
A
I think we knew that. He's a dead man walking, that's the truth.
- [46:23]
B
But will it be quick or will it be death by a thousand cuts? Because I think it'll be the latter.
- [46:31]
A
But they don't have the people in place to replace him. That's the problem. Although the idea that Andy Burnham already lost two leadership elections is their answer really shows how desperate things are. We have a couple of quick questions
- [46:41]
B
I think we should.
- [46:42]
A
This is actually from a childhood friend who I think's obviously been affected by my little brother's victory. He's called Danny and he whatsapped it into me, Tess, sending this with affection and huge congratulations on your brother becoming an msp. He says, I have a question for the pod, which I wager £211 you won't address. If the pod, where politics meets history is that. And if the point is to speak truth to power, shouldn't Banks of Banksy's statue be exactly the kind of public art worth, worth unpacking properly on the show? To borrow your song title naming convention, ABC as easy as episode 1, 2, 3. Ian calling Banksy a wet dream for liberal lefties was a culture war. Reflex, not critique. He's better than that. And perhaps he could be a little more open minded about political art, given his recent trip to that famously highbrow work Cherry Chess, the Musical.
- [47:38]
B
Look, I've. I've never. Tessa, you will back me up here. I have never made any pretensions to know anything about art or be remotely interested in it. I. I'm a cultural philistine. I've always admitted it.
- [47:50]
A
So really the fault then lies with me for not correcting you. And he then puts the heavy boots in here. I should say this is an ex friend. And given the Doctor's serious work on monuments, calling the figure a quote Pastiche of a victory soldier felt like a willfully narrow reading. The march is sanely not a soldier, he's a man in a suit in a work this stripped back. That choice is not incidental. Waterloo Place. Here he is correct, and I should have mentioned this. Waterloo place is not neutral ground. It's where military victory, empire state power, private finance, private intelligence, bond markets and establishment myth making all meet. In a week when Trump's war is again moving markets, that context feels anything but accidental. This goes on. I texted him back.
- [48:35]
B
A bundle of laughs, isn't it?
- [48:37]
A
It's like dunk and they take themselves very seriously. It's growing off in a Highland village with a manse. You know, we're all Gordon Brown at heart. We take ourselves very seriously. Anyway, I've got to read it because he said he'd give me a 211 pound donation if I read it out. So I think I've done pretty well. I've got through most of it. Surely he says this is not just about patriotism or reform. It is Banksy asking the question many commentators still seem nervous to ask. Lest we forget, whose flag are we marching under? Whose story are we inside side? Whose war are we being walked towards?
- [49:09]
B
I've never understood this Banksy phenomenon, I
- [49:11]
A
have to say, but is that just because you think it's wanky lefty art, as you glibly said in the last pod? But it's not, is it? It's clever. The whole point is, even Westminster lent into it. The location speaks to us. He got everyone very excited, beyond those
- [49:27]
B
who actually got a few liberal lefties very excited, like.
- [49:30]
A
Like Danny, my teenage daughter. Although she looked at what Danny had written and she said, oh, it's nothing I haven't seen on social media. So then. And she said, do you think he got AI to help him write that?
- [49:40]
B
I think that she ought to write a book called the World According. According to Mara.
- [49:45]
A
They're so cocky, these teenagers.
- [49:47]
B
I think Mara is destined to be. You see, she's got. Obviously got the political gene through her uncle. She could be a future leader. And you, obviously.
- [49:56]
A
Jesus, you're so hurtful. Oh, my God. She came out of her Spanish as. She's just doing voluntary in her lower sixth year today. And I said, I was. Was it? She went easy. I went, oh, great, okay. Hi, I'm Tessa. My name's Tessa.
- [50:09]
B
Well, I mean, half of her is you.
- [50:13]
A
Yeah, I know. She's great. I think, to be honest, I'm a big fan of Mara.
- [50:17]
B
She's not well, that's nice that she's your daughter.
- [50:19]
A
She doesn't know what direction she's going in, which is kind of reassuring. It can be quite confusing the world. And she didn't say it in a very dismissive way. What I found her interesting was that her take on this, ultimately she just looked down the entire question about Banksy, which just made me feel, oh my God, I failed on the pod. Oh, my goodness, why didn't I address Banksy and unpacking more, more effectively? How come somebody else has seen that? She said, it just looks like he's missing you as a friend, Mum. That's her take.
- [50:43]
B
Oh, bless.
- [50:43]
A
Yeah, that's quite sweet.
- [50:44]
B
Right, this is from Matt who says, I noticed Ian mentioned that Great Yarmouth first had won all the elections in which they ran candidates. The party is a preliminary version of RESTORE uk, Rupert Lowe's outfit. The party are openly far right and are calling to deport millions of people from. They have over 100,000 members. My question is, are the media not reporting on restore's activities to avoid spotlighting an extreme political movement by doing so, or because RESTORE are simply not newsworthy? What?
- [51:19]
A
I think this is a brilliant question.
- [51:21]
B
Okay, shall I go first?
- [51:23]
A
Yeah.
- [51:25]
B
Restore aren't getting a huge amount of coverage because they are a one man band. I mean, you say they've got 100,000 members. I didn't know that. They do have a lot of members, but. And Rupert Lowe is not, he's not somebody who likes going on the media. We've invited him on our show from time to time. Never, never accepts coming on. I quite like to quiz him and I don't buy this thing. Well, I'm not going to interview him because I don't want to give him publicity. That's not the reason at all.
- [51:51]
A
Interestingly, you always decry me when I talk about the evangelism in America which I really want to explore. I want to explore it from George W. Bush onwards. I to want to explore its impact in the Middle East. Let's do that in a different pod. I want to take it right back actually to the Founding Fathers and Thanksgiving. But what's interesting is Rupert Lowe. Have you dug into his party, the evangelical strain in it? That's where the Bible belt in Britain. Is that right in his party? Oh, yeah. This is properly what I call Bible Belt, America style Christianity. And we know that's inflexible.
- [52:24]
B
But you see, I think the, the most interesting thing about all of this is that you've got here him, you've got advance uk, which is Ben Habib's lot. And I'm thinking, well, why don't they get together? Because Rupert Lowe hates Nigel Farage and will do anything he can to destroy Nigel Farage. And so this is where I wonder whether the splintering of the right vote at the next election because he says he's going to stand candidates in every seat, if they take a couple of thousand votes off reform in each constituency, that will mean more Conservative MPs probably, probably might be more labor mps actually as well. So I think I'm not, I'm not dismissing Rupert Lowe at all. But I think he does need to have a little bit more scrutiny. I mean, I first came across him when he was chairman of Southampton Football Club, possibly one of the most unpopular chairmen in the history of Premier League football. And he, he left that quite a few years ago.
- [53:17]
A
Now, I don't get the feeling that Rupert Lowe really cares whether he's popular or not, which is curious in a politician.
- [53:22]
B
No. But also so quite a powerful position to be in. And also remember, he looks a lot older than he is. I think he's only 58. So he's not going anywhere very quickly. And the fact that his party won all of those seats on Norfolk County Council demonstrates that he will be an MP for some time to come.
- [53:43]
A
He knows how to target also his money. He clearly targeted and did some really effective campaigning. That's the other thing I learned from my wee brother, actually, is that he targeted his campaigning really carefully across the south of Scotland. You know, you've got to, you've got to know where the votes are and really care and really invest in it. Another one that's all from me. I do have a couple of other questions. I'm going to save them to the next.
- [54:02]
B
Well, I've just got one. This is from Matt Turner. Mark Turner, sorry. He said thank you very much for all the free entertainment you and Tessa provide with the podcast. And I'd concur it's now at the point I enjoy it more than for the many. No offense to Jackie. What prompted my email was the comment about rugby running. For the past 18 months, I've been training for my first marathon running 50-70km a week and it should be miles. And your podcast has provided me much entered with much entertainment during those runs, helping me look forward to the training and running as an opportunity to listen to you both for the 90 minutes. So I'm often out on the streets. Lots of critics would. Critics would be. No. Lots of critique would be possible, but your bickering and teasing of one another does often leave me smiling whilst running, so no need. It's very entertaining. As a lover of history and politics, combined with your unique interpersonal relationship, it's by far my favorite podcast. It's got very boring listening to a bunch of the other people who agree with each other on almost everything, just be a bit nicer to each other sometimes. I think it's mainly aimed at you, Tessa.
- [55:11]
A
No, I don't think it is.
- [55:13]
B
Then he says, p S, as you said, Ian, that you always sponsor people. I was scheduled to run the London Marathon, but unfortunately I tore my hamstring at Christmas, so I couldn't. But I am going to run the Hackney Half Marathon, so if you'd like to sponsor me, any amount would be gratefully received and I have done just that. So if you would also like to sponsor a fellow podcast listener, just go to justgiving.com put the link in the show notes.
- [55:40]
A
Yeah, I'll put the link in the show.
- [55:42]
B
Okay, well, I'll say anyway. JustGiving.com forward slash, fundraising. Forward slash. Mark Turner, HH2026.
- [55:49]
A
That's beautiful. Okay, well, I've got a sleepover with an old university for friend.
- [55:54]
B
Careful how you say that.
- [55:55]
A
Gonna take her up to my attic for a playdate.
- [55:57]
B
I beg your pardon?
- [55:58]
A
And so therefore I've got to go very quickly, promptly this evening. It's been a great pleasure, as usual, to converse with you, Ian, and.
- [56:06]
B
And do watch News Night later on.
- [56:08]
A
Are you on it?
- [56:09]
B
Apparently.
- [56:09]
A
Oh yes.
- [56:10]
B
Unless they dump me.
- [56:11]
A
They dump me on the King so
- [56:13]
B
hurtfully the last six occasions that I've been scheduled to be on News Night, five of them, they've dumped me.
- [56:18]
A
Two nights in a row they dumped me. And. And I'd turned something down in America to be with them. And I was. And I did say to them, oh, F. Off or something. They kind of know. They were like, but you know what it's like I said, yeah, but I'm still allowed to say F off. But that's probably why they invite you back and not me anyway.
- [56:34]
B
Could be.
- [56:35]
A
Fuck off.
- [56:36]
B
Bye bye.
- [56:36]
A
Oh, fuck off, all of you. This has been a global player original production.
- [56:45]
E
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