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- [00:03]
A
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:39]
B
Hello, and welcome to where politics Meets History. Sadly, today, Tessa is a little unwell, so she's not with us. So we thought, well, on a day like today. And bear in mind, we're recording this on Thursday afternoon, who should we get to replace Tessa as if she's replaceable? But we have found an ideal replacement. It is LBC's political editor, Natasha Clarke. Welcome.
- [01:01]
A
Thank you. Thanks for having me on such a momentous day.
- [01:04]
B
You must have been. You must be a busy little beaver today.
- [01:06]
A
Honestly, it's felt like a week where I just don't know what day is and it's just days are all blowing into one. But so exciting, isn't it?
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B
It is. Now, I'm not sure how much history we're going to get into this podcast, but I suppose there are historical parallels and we will spend the whole podcast talking about the events of the last couple of days and what might happen in the future. The big event of today is Course west resigning. Now, some people are drawing parallels between him and Michael Heseltine back in 1986. It's a bit different because Wes Reading hasn't actually stormed out of a Cabinet meeting.
- [01:40]
A
No, he hasn't, but you could.
- [01:43]
B
It was always thought, then who. He who wields the dagger never wears the crown. And I suspect history is about to repeat itself.
- [01:51]
A
Well, that's what Wes Streeting's argument has been all along, hasn't it? He doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger on Keir Starmer for a number of reasons, and at the time of recording, he still has not done so. Whether he does so in the coming hours or days remains yet to be seen. But obviously he doesn't want to upset all of the loyal people in Sakir Starmer's government. And all the people that do still support Keir Starmer, they're never, ever going to forgive him if he wields that knife. B. He knows that he's not hugely popular amongst the Labour membership. And indeed there were some polls out today, one from Servation for Labour lists that looked at the membership and looked at how they might vote, and Keir Starmer storming ahead of West Streeting there. So he knows that he's got his.
- [02:32]
B
And what about the others?
- [02:33]
A
Well, the others, I think, did do a lot better. Better. And I think that Andy Burnham in particular, I think, would beat Keir Starmer in. In a potential leadership race. So that's obviously now the bigger worry, because Andy Burnham, more to the left we know. What we do know about the Labour Party membership is they are slightly more of the left than Wes Streeting's flavor of politics. But also, like I say, he genuinely, I think, believes that he doesn't want to be that disloyal person to, to stab someone in the back. So. And he's been saying this all along, his allies have been saying this for months that he is not going to be the one to pull the trigger. And, and like I say, as of yet, he still hasn't done say that.
- [03:07]
B
But you read his resignation letter and it doesn't. This. You don't have to read between the lines in this letter.
- [03:12]
A
That's not. Yeah, not a lot of love there for the government.
- [03:14]
B
They're really.
- [03:15]
A
Well, for Keir Starmer for sure.
- [03:17]
B
The, the last few paragraphs are absolutely coruscating. And yes, he hasn't pulled the trigger in terms of getting the names, but how could he have got the names by now? He couldn't.
- [03:29]
A
Well, that's exactly what allies of, of. Of Keir Starmer are telling me. All afternoon. They've been saying Wes treating does not have the numbers and that is why he has act. They feel he had to act, he had to do something because he's basically marched everyone all up the hill. He didn't deny those reports yesterday that he could resign, but clearly he's not got enough MPs to trigger that challenge.
- [03:50]
B
I don't think you can say that
- [03:52]
A
we can't for sure.
- [03:53]
B
Well, the reason is he couldn't have gone around the tea rooms this week asking people to sign the nomination form because that would have leaked. So the only chance he's got is from the moment he resigns to start collecting the names potentially.
- [04:07]
A
And like I say, we may see. We may see that in the hours.
- [04:09]
B
Yeah. And I don't know whether he's got enough people, I would have thought. I mean, there are quite in. There are quite a lot of the new intake that you would class as sort of progress types that were on the right of the Labour Party, sort
- [04:24]
A
of the Blairite, you think, well, if
- [04:25]
B
he can't get those, the game really is up. But I think it's very early to say that he. He hasn't got the numbers.
- [04:32]
A
I think it's. It's not hugely early because in a way, we've been in this shadow leadership contest all week, haven't we? It's been days of speculation since the local election results and I think if anybod thought that it was going to happen, you know, Then they would have basically put their. Put their name down or at least made it. Made it known to West Reading's team that they would support him. I think the problem is that a number of the people that will support. We're treating. If there was a leadership contest without Keir Starmer in, some of them are Cabinet ministers and some of them are ministers. So they can't put their name to this.
- [05:00]
B
No, they can't. And let's bear in mind that anyone who does sign up, they. Those names are made public. It's not like the Tory Party where the mps write letters to more then Sir Graham Brady and he never reveals who the names are. We will know who the names are.
- [05:15]
A
And get this in. I spoke to someone earlier who is an ally of Keir Starmer and they said to me that they were having Cabinet ministers, were having conversations with MPs last night in the House of Commons and they said to me, oh, some MPs were not aware that if you put their name down for West Streeting, for example, they can't then withdraw it and then vote for someone else.
- [05:33]
B
Oh, I didn't know that.
- [05:34]
A
Well, that was a. Well, basically, I mean, you can't. Obviously, you know, you can't nominate two people. Right. Say, you know, no chance.
- [05:39]
B
No, but you could withdraw your name and then nominate somebody. Because I wondered whether there might be Andy Burnham people who'll say to Wes, yeah, let's do this in the hope
- [05:50]
A
that they can lend your name.
- [05:51]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [05:52]
A
But you're saying that you basically can't. So it's. If your name is on that, that 80 list, that's your leadership challenge and you are behind the challenger, so you then can't change your name, which does make sense, but equally also, like, I don't. I don't know how sort of the ballot will work. Isn't it. Isn't it a private ballot later on for the labor members to. Who will have their say later on?
- [06:11]
B
That's the thing. And I, I didn't compute this until yesterday. I assumed that then all the MPs would have a vote as to whether they wanted to keep stick Keir Starmer or not. Or would they go with West Streeting? But it's not like.
- [06:25]
A
It's not like there is no Parliamentary. Yeah, they don't exactly. It's. Do you want to nominate this man to be the challenger? And then that's it, the leadership contest starts and then obviously they do need to get the support of constituency Labour parties and Labour affiliate unions as well. That does need to happen in some stage. But yes, essentially they, they don't. MPs do not have a vote. They do have day. And let's remember it was Keir Starmer who changed the rules on this back in 2021 when he was, you know, trying to take control of the, of the Labour Party. He changed the rules. It was something like 10 of the parliamentary party and now it's 20. So he's making it deliberately harder to launch challenge against the, the existing labor leader. I know he really, he clearly could foresee this political future.
- [07:06]
B
I'm gonna be. So I need to make sure that
- [07:10]
A
maybe he foresaw all of this coming.
- [07:12]
B
Well, who knows? It's very difficult because I mean all my non political friends sort of keep saying to me so what's going to happen then? What's going to happen? As if I'm the font of all knowledge on this. I'm sure they do. And I find it a really difficult question to answer. But I did. I was doing the Fleet Street Festival of Words with Steve Richards at lunchtime and we were supposed to be talking about our books, but obviously most people wanted to ask about this. And I said to Steve, do you know what? I'm so fed up with politicians and commentators who won't nail their colors to the mast. I said we are paid to give our views.
- [07:50]
A
That's true.
- [07:51]
B
And yet I keep seeing sort of respected political commentators saying, well on the one hand this. And on the other hand that this could. I mean that's all.
- [08:01]
A
That's my job as the political editor. I'm allowed to be.
- [08:03]
B
Yes, but you are. Yeah, but if you are paid to offer opinions, you're paid to report on things and okay, you've got a bit of latitude there. But I mean Zoe Grunewald, who we often have on cross question, she was on. She's been on sky yesterday and today and that was all she was doing. So. Well, on the one hand this. And on the other hand that will get. Tell me what you think and, and tell me why you think.
- [08:24]
A
No, nobody knows. I think that's the problem is that I've wavered myself with how I thought this week was going to play out and I have genuinely been thinking oh is where's going to do it because like I say, they've been telling us for so long he's not going to be the one to. And like I say, he still hasn't. That doesn't mean that that could change. But the idea that him resigning, you know, again, you know, he's had plenty of other sort of reasons to resign, I guess, over Keir Starmer's leadership over many months and he's chosen not to do so. So, yeah, I think it is really, really difficult. It's really hard to predict. And the MPs themselves are playing this game of sort of 5D chess of like, if not Andy then Angela and, you know, if not Keir, then Wes. And, you know, I thought that Luke Akehurst really summed it up. The Labour MP that we had on the Breakfast show earlier today where he is an ally of Wes. Well, I'm not going to be voting to trigger a leadership contest and back West Streeting at the moment. I believe that we need to be behind the Prime Minister. I don't want to see a leadership announcement right now. We need to stick the course. And if even allies of West Reading are saying that, and nobody wants that chaotic leadership, then we're. Streeting is really going to struggle to get those numbers, if even his own allies are basically making the calculation. And let's not forget, it's not just the 81 MPs that West Streeting needs. He needs half, you know, he needs sort of more of the parliamentary party to sort of be on his side. Labour members as well, and Labour members. No point triggering a leadership election if you think that you can't get the support of. Of the mps, because, you know, otherwise we're. Streeting is going to be in this horrible situation where, say, he were to win and become Prime Minister. If you can't get the support of your mps and you can't get the support of, you know, them to do anything with this legislative agenda, then what's the point in doing this at all? So there's lots of things to consider and obviously Andy Burnham not being a part in Parliament, you know, will he be a part. We're hearing all these messages, of course, from mps saying we now want a timetable for Keir Starmer's departure. That naturally helps someone like Andy Burnham. And that's what people have been saying to me all day, that they think this gives Keir Starmer a bit more time in office, but it also gives Andy Burnham a bit more time to try and return to Westminster, if there indeed is a seat available for him.
- [10:24]
B
Well, that's a very good question, because all the seats that have been suggested, all the MPs keep denying there's one yesterday, Manchester rush home, which I'd never heard of, Asal Khan, apparently he's now denied that he's Offered. And I mean, frankly, Andy Burnham would have had to have a brain seizure to have gone for the that seat because it's only got an 8,000 majority. And you look at the demographics and the way the labor vote has gone, I mean, I mean, and that. But then again, you see, Steve Richard's view is. Oh, yeah, but his, his personal popularity at Manchester would see him through.
- [10:55]
A
Well, that's what I don't think his allies think. That's what, you know, people think, you know, that Andy Burnham is very popular as a guy, but it's hard to test this theory. Right. And we just don't know. But equally, you know, you saw the local rejection results like Manchester going completely reformed teal. So it's a real big risk.
- [11:12]
B
Well, I'll tell you what, I'm sure there will be a by election at some point that he'll go for. It will be one of the most momentous by elections in political history.
- [11:21]
A
Absolutely. And you can see Reform throwing the book at this, can't you? They are absolutely going to put their best candidate, whoever they think is best and in line, their highest profile person in this seat, to try and stop it from, from being got by, by Labour Party and Andy Burnham. But equally, then you'll, you'll, you know, theory. You should have the Labour Party's machinery behind it if indeed they decide it's now time to have all of our best players on. You'd like to think the Labour Party machinery would do that, but there's so many steps to get there. We don't know what Keir Starmer would do with the nec. Last time he and the NEC Officers Committee blocked it. We don't really know whether that would happen again. We know that it would cause anger
- [11:57]
B
if it did happen, there's no way that they would block it again.
- [12:00]
A
Keir Starmer is in such a weakened position now. You'd like to think that. But equally, people said that about Gordon and Denton, didn't they? Oh, Keir Starmer won't dare block him and he did. He's pretty ruthless when he wants to be.
- [12:10]
B
He is ruthless, but that's. You see, ruthlessness in some ways is a positive in a politician, but it can also be a very big negative because if you get the reputation of throwing people under the bus at the first opportunity, which he has got, he's already got that. Some people say, I mean, people don't like that and Labour MPs don't like that. And I mean, if Keir Starmer does get a stay of Execution. That's all it is, a stay. He won't be Labour leader at the next election.
- [12:38]
A
Many people think that that is absolutely the case, that he's not going to be Labour leader forever. And they are looking at what the next stage looks. Sort of thinking about this in sort of a number of ways. Like firstly, if this was happening a year later or two years later, I don't think that K Star would still be in office right now because it would be too close to a general election and mps would be starting to stare down the barrel of the defeat and the loss of their own seats. But because it's only two years into this government, I think there is that hesitancy from many labor mps, which is why they don't want to trigger a leadership contest now because they are so afraid of losing that power so early into their labor government. And lots of people are saying, you know, we've waited 14 years for government. Why on earth would we put all of that at risk now? So I think that is a big, big factor of MP is the fact that we just haven't got very far into this government yet.
- [13:21]
B
I just realized we started the podcast and we've had no fluff.
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A
No fluff, no.
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B
So let's think of some fluff that we can, as in entertain entertainers with. You're going to the. You always have go to the theater.
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A
Yeah, going to the theater.
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B
What you going to see?
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A
One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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B
Well, that's a bit depressing, isn't it?
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A
Apparently I don't really know the hugely a lot about the plot. Obviously I know the veil.
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B
Isn't it all about Mental hospital?
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A
Yeah. And like lots of sort of, you know, backstabbing and sort of, you know, ideal. So I think it's an ideal timing,
- [13:51]
B
really inform your reporting on what's going on. Right, let's take a break. I have got a bit of fluff, actually. Go on, I want to hear your fluff. I got a WhatsApp from. No, in fact, I sent Jackie Smith later this parish a WhatsApp. Basically saying, I can only imagine what's going through your head at the moment. If you want to chat, but just stick to your instincts because you've got good political instincts and she just sort of put a heart underneath it. And then yesterday morning she said, can I come and see you before 6:00'? Clock? I was thinking no PM.
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A
Okay.
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B
So I was thinking. So what does she mean by that?
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A
Oh, is she gonna count? Get your counsel for something very serious.
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B
Well, I Sort of. I then convinced myself that she was going to resign.
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A
And you thought. And she was gonna do it one year?
- [14:49]
B
No, I didn't think that at all, actually.
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A
She should. She should do, obviously, but I just feel that.
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B
I just thought she may want to chat it through or something. So she. She comes in and sits down. So I'm sitting there expectantly. She says, would you like to do a reading at my wedding?
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A
Oh, that's so sweet.
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B
No, it is very sweet. And I'm going to do one.
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A
I did a reading at my friend's wedding last year.
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B
Did you?
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A
Yeah, I did a reading.
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B
Can I just copy it?
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A
You can, but I don't know if it will apply to Jackie. So I did a reading about how marriage is like. Like, like, like owning a dog. It's a very sweet. It's a very sweet poem about, like, loyalty and love and affection and attention and I'm not sure I want to
- [15:27]
B
do a poem that.
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A
Yeah, so it was. It was a poem. I'll. I'll send it to you later. It's a really nice, sweet poem. They really liked it.
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B
Sometimes my friend cried.
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A
So it did work.
- [15:35]
B
Well, Excellent. Yeah. That means if I read out, I might cry, and I don't want to do that.
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A
But you're going to be at a wedding. Jackie. Jackie's wedding, presumably.
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B
But it's because she's having a ceremony and then an evening thing, and that's when all the, like, best man speech and all that will be done. So I've got to be very careful not to sort of turn it into a sort of pseudo little speech.
- [15:56]
A
I mean, you might need to say
- [15:58]
B
a few words afterwards. I did suggest that I should just read out a nun joke in tribute to the podcast.
- [16:02]
A
Yeah.
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B
But I don't think so.
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A
Okay, we can discuss this later.
- [16:06]
B
Two Dogs. Regular listeners will remember that one.
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A
I think maybe listeners can send in some suggestions. Well, I was readings.
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B
I was going to say that. Because what I don't want to do is do one that everybody else does.
- [16:16]
A
So if you, if you sort of like, Google this. There's lots of, like, I did this a lot. Like, a lot when I was sort of searching for inspiration. There's loads of, like, common ones that come up and they're. They're a bit generic. You kind of want something a little bit different. Which is why I did the dog. Dog one.
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B
And I, I sent. I. I spoke to my sister yesterday because she used to be a wedding celebrant. So I thought, well, she's.
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A
Oh, she'll she'll know all the really bad ones as well. She can be like, don't read that.
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B
Why don't you write one yourself?
- [16:38]
A
Oh, a poem or a reading.
- [16:41]
B
See, I'm quite good at doing limericks.
- [16:43]
A
Oh, yes, okay. I could see that for you.
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B
But I usually do this spontaneously. In fact, Jackie and I used to do that on the podcast. I would do spontaneous limericks, but I'm not sure that.
- [16:53]
A
I'm not sure that's in the.
- [16:54]
B
Like, there once was a woman from Malvern.
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A
They would like that. To be fair, I think a wedding audience, especially after a few drinks and canapes, would like that.
- [17:01]
B
Or maybe I should do a limerick and a serious one. Anyway, if anybody's got any ideas, you know, what to do. Email Politics History. No, where politics meets history@global.com. anyway, back to the subject at hand.
- [17:17]
A
Should we, should we look at West Readings resignation letter. Yeah, just have a little look at it because it is really stinging.
- [17:25]
B
Do you know that he almost did a where there is discord, maybe bring harmony thing?
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A
He did.
- [17:30]
B
Yeah. Where there, where there is. Where there should be vision, there is a vacuum.
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A
Yes.
- [17:36]
B
And we read out that paragraph.
- [17:37]
A
Yeah, okay. I'm just finding it because it's very, very long. It's 1,000 words.
- [17:40]
B
Yeah, it's. It is long, but crafted.
- [17:43]
A
Where we need vision, we have a vacuum. Where we need direction, we have drift. I could read this at the wedding, couldn't you? This was underscored by your speech on Monday. Leaders take. But too often that has meant other people falling on their swords. You also need to listen to your colleagues, including backbenchers. And the heavy handed approach to the dissenting voices diminishes our politics.
- [18:04]
B
You see, if I was, quote, tweeting that I would end it with the word oofed.
- [18:08]
A
Oofed. Yeah.
- [18:09]
B
Because I mean that, that it's very accurate, incredibly scathing. And I know we have to be careful about how we use knife language nowadays, but that's straight between the shoulder blades.
- [18:20]
A
But there's a lot of, a lot of that language in here about fighting and. Yeah, swords and like it's a bit, you know, if, if he indeed. If he indeed did they. And say at the end of this resignation letter, and I'm going to fight you, Keir Starmer. I wouldn't be surprised because that's the language of what he's saying here. But yes, it's very long. We should start saying that a lot of it is about his, his record as Health Secretary. And I do think that if he does run. That's going to be a big part of his campaign, isn't it? He's going to say, well, I'm the one that started to fix the nhs. I'm the one that started to see those, those waiting lists fall a e times better meeting those targets.
- [18:56]
B
But you see even that people are saying, well, he says he's cut waiting lists. It's actually because they're paying each NHS trust £3 million to basically sort through their waiting list and cut a load of people out.
- [19:08]
A
Still, he's cutting those lists here.
- [19:09]
B
Well, I know, but statistics can mean a lot, a lot or nothing, can't they?
- [19:13]
A
But I think he will absolutely want to put this and his record as Health Secretary at the forefront of a campaign. Another thing that someone said to me, one of his allies said that they were going to, to, you know, really fight on is, you know, we're streeting and the Labour Party did all right in Redbridge, in Red Shooting's constituency in the local elections and there wants to sort of paint this picture that he is the one to take on reform and he can be the one to, to fight Nigel Farage, because at the moment, obviously, Kirsten not doing hugely about
- [19:42]
B
that and I think he would be very good at that. I, I, I also think Angela Rayner could be quite good at that.
- [19:48]
A
Absolutely.
- [19:48]
B
Andy Burnham less so, I have to say. And Ed Miliband. Not at all.
- [19:51]
A
I agree, I think of the, of the sort of four potential leadership candidates. Minister, I agree with you. I think Andy Burnham probably wouldn't be quite as good at that.
- [19:58]
B
Now, why is it, do you think, that Keir Starmer hasn't replied to that letter yet? Because normally they release them at roughly the same time.
- [20:04]
A
That's good. I'm just going to check my WhatsApps and make sure that hasn't. Oh, it has just come in. One sec. Here we go. Here we go. I'm just gonna have to forward it on to, you know, our esteemed colleagues who might be, you know, needing it for political news gathering. I'm just forwarding it to the Breaking New Politics News WhatsApp group. There you go. That. Because you don't need to be in.
- [20:23]
B
Why?
- [20:24]
A
Well, you can be if you really want.
- [20:25]
B
Who's in it?
- [20:26]
A
Well, you know, like me and Aggie.
- [20:28]
B
Yeah.
- [20:29]
A
Some news editors you can be in if you want. Probably charge you. I'll call it. I'll do you in a minute. Okay, we've got. I'm reading you this for the first time now. It's Just come in. It's not even been on the radio yet. Dear Wes, thank you for your letter. I'm very sorry that you've stepped down from government. We've worked together for many years. I want to thank you for all your hard work. Talks about the NHS for a bit. Lots of improvements. You and your team have set out an ambitious policy. Blah, blah, blah. Last week's local elections were extremely tough. I know. Many good colleagues lost their seats. Everyone on our parties aware that our opponents are more dangerous than ever before. It is incumbent on all of us to rise to what I see as a battle for the soul of the nation. He said that before, hasn't he? We must deliver on all of the promises we made to the country, including our promise to turn the page on the chaos that was roundly rejected by the British people at the last election. We doesn't want to see you. You launch a challenge against me. I'm truly sorry you will no longer be at the cabinet table helping to transform our nhs. I have no doubt you'll be able to play an important role in the party for many years to come. That's actually a really nice resignation letter, actually. He could have been a lot more cutting. That's quite nice. No ends on. I hope we can continue to show that labor and Power can address the problems our opponents exploit, can install hope where they want despair and can bring people together where they want division. All best wishes, kid Year. That's actually really nice.
- [21:42]
B
That is more gracious than I would have expected.
- [21:44]
A
I genuinely would have expected that to be a little bit shorter and it's. It's sort of a page and a half long. And that's. That's quite. That's quite nice, I thought.
- [21:52]
B
And he hasn't replaced him yet either?
- [21:54]
A
No, as far as we know, no replacement. And actually, I was thinking about this earlier, that there's, you know, a few PPs and. And junior ministers in the Health Department have all resigned, so there's a few to. He can't promote from within at the moment.
- [22:05]
B
That's going to be very interesting to see who he puts in that job, because I think that that will give us a sign of his thinking as to sort from what wing of the party are they. Are they going to be good communicators? Because I think even Wes's enemies would have to admit that he's a great communicator.
- [22:21]
A
He is a great communicator and obviously he will be a loss to the government, like, when we ever have him on call the Cabinet when he's on the round. He's really strong and he passionately, you know, believes in. In this cause that he's, that he's fighting for and what he's doing. And you believe him.
- [22:35]
B
You know what he's going to do now?
- [22:36]
A
I hope he launched his podcast.
- [22:38]
B
No. He will be angling for a presenter position on lbc.
- [22:42]
A
Do you think he loves it?
- [22:44]
B
Whenever he's done done, he's done guest host before, he said to me, he said, when I finish in politics, I want your job.
- [22:51]
A
They all say that though, don't they? No.
- [22:53]
B
No, they don't. He genuinely, a lot of politicians, he gets it. He understands what it is to be a presenter. And I. I suspect he's already knocked on Tom Chiel's door.
- [23:03]
A
Really? Okay, well, we'll have to. We'll have to find out. We'll just send him a little text. Hey, where's after. After a different job? I don't think so. Will probably be waiting in the wings in case something does happen with the Prime Minister in the next sort of few weeks, few months. Right. I think he will probably use this to make the case to labor members, probably tour the country, probably be a little bit of a thorn in the Prime Minister's side by sort of subtly, a bit like Angela Rayna's done the last six months. Right. Making her case for what she believes needs to be different.
- [23:31]
B
Do you think he'll get 40 grand for a speech?
- [23:34]
A
I mean, I probably would pay more for a West Streeting speech than Angela Rona spent speech personally, because I think
- [23:38]
B
it'd be more good after dinner speech.
- [23:41]
A
But equally, Angelina is very funny. So, yeah, I think, I think he would be. I think he would be good on the dinner party circuit.
- [23:46]
B
Well, let's talk about Angela Rayner, because my theory is that she will be the next Prime Minister.
- [23:51]
A
Oh, go on, tell us why. I really don't think that's going to happen.
- [23:53]
B
Well, I do on the basis that I think she can tickle the Labour Party members where they need to be tickled in a way that Wes can't.
- [24:02]
A
It's true.
- [24:03]
B
Ed Miliband. The only reason that there is a slight Ed Miliband bandwagon at the moment is because Andy Burnham isn't there. That's not a good enough reason for someone to be given the leadership. And remember, the electorate rejected ed Miliband in 2015.
- [24:18]
A
They did.
- [24:19]
B
And he's done nothing since then to make us all think, oh, yeah, let's
- [24:24]
A
bring back Ed Miliband, he can eat a bacon sandwich normally now.
- [24:26]
B
And people, I think a lot of people think he's just obsessed by net zero to an unhealthy degree. Even a lot of Labour voters, I think, think, believe that he would be the worst leader to fight reform. So I think once people start thinking about it, I think his star will be on the way in a bit.
- [24:45]
A
Yeah. I mean, if people are really thinking about it, then, like I say, I don't think they would be doing this leadership.
- [24:50]
B
No, but you see, I think she. You always have to look at the election that you're fighting, not the election that comes after that. Now, her problem is that. That she's not particularly popular among large sections of the electorate. That there is a. A big constituency of people who just think she's common as muck and you couldn't have someone like that as Prime Minister. I don't believe that myself. I think she's a very clever woman. I think she's articulate. Yes. She doesn't come from sort of conventional political classes, but in a way she. She can turn that into a strength. Strength. I think so. I think she's got the ability to do the job. But I think where she might come unstuck is among a lot of working class labor voters who also think that she's not quite the right type to be Prime Minister.
- [25:44]
A
She is a gamble, though. Both, of course she is, and arguably Andy Burnham as well. A bit of a gamble, I think, for people to put them in as Prime Minister. It depends on what. What. Like I say, if you're looking at. Right. If you're looking at the Labour members, obviously Angela Rayner is much more popular and that's where she'll be. But I think she will be less popular. I agree with you. When it comes to a general election, equally, I think you're right. She will be really, really strong at fighting Nigel Farage. And you know that clearly water that will be put between Angela Rainer in the Labour Party and Nigel Farage in the Reform Party under. Under her Prime Ministership would be. Will be pretty stark, wouldn't it?
- [26:20]
B
Yeah, but what about. What about the Rayner versus Badenoch clashes?
- [26:24]
A
Yeah, I mean, that would be great. Make PM's cues a lot more fun.
- [26:28]
B
I mean, Kemi yesterday was absolutely on fire.
- [26:31]
A
She was very funny and she.
- [26:33]
B
She has basically blown up Instagram today. I mean, if you go through your
- [26:37]
A
Instagram reels, I saw you've liked it already.
- [26:40]
B
Every third one.
- [26:42]
A
That's just your Instagram, Ian. I Know, it tells you what you want to see. So, yeah, Nicki Minaj is tweeted.
- [26:48]
B
Nicki Minaj, a popular music beat combo.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah. She's tweeted about Cami Beidnock earlier today, I think it was. Or maybe last night, she. You know, they'll be making films about Kemi Badenoch in the way that they made films about Margaret Thatcher. She. She does have a sexual appeal on
- [27:03]
B
the withering yesterday, wasn't it? I love the bit with Emily Thornbury. Do you remember that? When Emily Thornbury said, can you just stop insulting everyone on this side of the House? And she said, I'm not done yet.
- [27:15]
A
She's got a lot of wit and a lot of very dry fudge.
- [27:18]
B
But you see, this is what I thought we would have seen from Cammie, right from day one of her leadership.
- [27:22]
A
I think she was so nervous when she took over the dress job.
- [27:24]
B
She's now being herself.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
And it's a great strength in a politician when they feel that they can be themselves.
- [27:30]
A
The problem is that she's still really struggling in the polls.
- [27:33]
B
Well, she isn't. Her party is.
- [27:34]
A
Sorry, yeah. Her party's the Conservatives, so, yeah, she's doing better than her party. There's a really big argument for what happens next there. But Cami Badenoch's position seems quite safe at the moment because her popularity and her personal poll rate.
- [27:45]
B
Well, I have not seen. I mean, given that their performance in the local elections, it wasn't quite as bad as it could have been. But it wasn't.
- [27:52]
A
No, but it wasn't good.
- [27:53]
B
Nobody is suggesting that she should be in any danger.
- [27:56]
A
No, absolutely not. Yeah.
- [27:58]
B
Right.
- [27:58]
A
Yes. That would be really good to see Angela Rayner.
- [28:00]
B
We'll take a break and then I want to talk to you about what your job is like in circumstances like this, because I think political editor of any organization, whether it's the broadcast media or the print media, when there's things like this going on, I mean, the pressure must be tremendous. Much more, I think, than present. I'm not saying you're not. Oh, my God. She's getting very defensive.
- [28:22]
A
No, no, no, no, no.
- [28:23]
B
I just think it's interesting. Interesting. Right, let's take a break. So being political editor at a time of political crisis, a must be exciting and exhilarating, but you must always feel a pressure to basically get stories that your colleagues in other organizations haven't got. I mean, how does that work? Work?
- [28:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, obviously. Yeah. The job of. My job is to basically tell the story of the day and to explain to you, the listeners, why it's important, why it matters, what's really going on, and also to hopefully bring them knowledge, bits of tidbits, bits of information that they wouldn't get anywhere else. And part of that is exclusive stories. So obviously that's a big part and I really enjoy that part. Breaking stories like that, you're not going to get anywhere else first. That's what I really like and I really enjoy. And on a day like today, which has been. We're streeting, it's been. Been. It's been a. It's been a fun day. Like, don't get me wrong, like, we live for political days like this, don't we? And it's. It's really fun to be at the heart and the center of. Of such sort of political turmoil. Arguably, maybe that's one of the reasons why, why we're in it again, because we, the media, like to. To sort of ramp up that drama. But, yeah, it is, it is sort of, you know, it's a lot of what you'd expect, you know, texting, mps, trying to get them on the phone, what's happening? What do you think's happening next? Who's backing who? And trying to find out. You know, a lot of it is also operational. A lot of it's like, what time's the PM going to be up? Where is he going be? You know, it's just a lot of it is just finding all this information and sort of, you know, relaying it to your lovely, presumably.
- [29:56]
B
I mean, I. I think you are in Your very early 30s, are you not?
- [30:01]
A
Mid 30s, are you?
- [30:02]
B
Mid 30s?
- [30:03]
A
Very kind of you to say.
- [30:04]
B
Well, no, I genuinely thought you were early 30s. But you've spent, what, the last 12, 15 years building up your political contacts and this is where they come into play, isn't it? And, yes, I've been very conscious over the past few days that I don't feel I've built up my contacts among the new lot of Labour MPs as much as maybe I should have done. And so I've really started to. I mean, we had two Labour ministers on this week on Cross Question, James Frith and Chris Ward, neither of whom I know hadn't ever come across before. And there was part of me thinking, oh, we should have bigger names than them, but they were both, both brilliant, I have to say. And so I've made it my business to sort of ingratiate myself. Yeah, for. For future reference.
- [30:52]
A
You should. And you should, for sure. It makes I think it makes us all better.
- [30:55]
B
But when you look down a huge list of 403 Labor MPS, and okay, I know a lot of the older ones, but there are so many that I've just never heard of.
- [31:07]
A
Oh my gosh, me too. Sometimes I'll. There'll be a name pop up on the X is calling for Keir Starmer to go list and I won't have heard of them because there are so many. And you know, I'm only one person. I can't meet every single one mp. Even, you know, even if I had met them all, it'd be, you know, I'd be meeting one a day and I'd still not have met them all by now. But yes, it's, it's interesting because, yeah, you know, obviously after 2019, sorry, 2024 election, you know, the contact book with the Tories was totally ripped in two because we lost so many mps. And also that so many, you know, stood down were replaced. All the spads went, all the government changed. Number 10 completely changed. So you are just ripping it up and starting again, really. And arguably, obviously, lots of the journalists who have got all these labor contacts from, you know, whether it depends on the outlet. And obviously, you know, the Guardian in the Mirror are like, right, our time has come. It's time for me to shine. But, but yes, it's, it's, it's tricky because you can't know everybody. And that's fine. You don't need to know everybody. And like, it's good to. What I think is great is to sort of have a good contact book of sort of like 5 to 10 that you know really well and that you can keep coming back to, that you can call and, you know, will give you a call back or that will give you a little bit of tidbit of information. And that doesn' need to be like every single cabinet minister. It can be one cabinet minister, a couple of ministers, couple of backbenches from the left, couple of backbenches from the right, couple of really good spats. Like, it doesn't need to be everybody and you can't know everybody really well. So there's different ways of sort of schools of thought about how to do the job really well.
- [32:35]
B
And also you've got a lot of demands on your time from programs like mine. We, we all want you or Aggie on. And you can't work 24 hours a day. No, but you could at the moment. Moment. Because I mean, the way we work it is you generally do sort of the early part of the day and then Aggie does the latter part of the day.
- [32:51]
A
Yeah. Which I feel like I don't go on your show as much. Well, it makes me sad.
- [32:55]
B
And I've actually. I had someone yesterday complaining about that.
- [32:59]
A
Oh, no. Okay.
- [33:00]
B
And I had to explain. Well, it's not because we don't want to ask, it's because she does.
- [33:04]
A
Time to shine.
- [33:05]
B
Well, she does have the first half of the day, but then, of course, if you're on holiday or Aggie's on holiday.
- [33:10]
A
Yeah.
- [33:10]
B
Then I mean, we. You haven't got a third person.
- [33:14]
A
I know. Can you. That's. Is that just management a listing? Maybe we should be hiring some more people to just really fill out the roster. But, yeah, I'd love to have a bigger team and more staff and, like, that would be great to be able to cover more stories. But, yeah, the way it usually works is that I'm doing.
- [33:26]
B
Bear in mind that when I first started here, we did not have a political editor, really. We had Tom Chiel as political correspondent. And that was the case right up until. Well, I remember saying to James Rear when he first took over LBC in, what, 2011, 2012, I said, the one thing you could do to make yourself really popular right from the start is make Tom Cheer political editor. And he did exactly that.
- [33:50]
A
There you go. Well done.
- [33:52]
B
And then, of course, Theo came in. But Theo was operating on his own.
- [33:56]
A
He was. Yeah.
- [33:57]
B
At least.
- [33:57]
A
Although he did have Ben Kentish as well.
- [34:00]
B
Yeah. But he. But Ben Kentish was star Westminster editor, which is.
- [34:04]
A
Yes. I think they tended to do what Aggie and I did as well, which is split the day up and have one person sort of in the mornings and then one in the evenings. And that's sort of why we continued that. And I didn't really like that at the time because I was like, oh, no, I want to be able to go on all the shows I want. And I don't want to not do Andrew Ma, and I don't want to not do Ian Dale, you know, and it was like, that was. That was the sort of risk. But then you sort of go, well, I'm actually not very good at my job if I'm absolutely exhausted and I can't remember what day it is. So you kind of have to split it up a bit. But, yeah, I mean, Chris Mason, he does four days a week. Slacker.
- [34:34]
B
Does he?
- [34:35]
A
I know, yeah. Yeah, he does Monday to Thursday. Thursday. Most of the poll heads do just Monday to Thursday. Sorry, I shouldn't I shouldn't single out Chris Mason. I think most of the other political editors do a Monday to Thursday thing. So they, you know, Chris Masons, he's on the top of the 8, you know, the 8, 10 or whatever and then he's on the 10pm so like he does really long days, so that's why he only does a four day week. So I shouldn't call him a slacker. He's also a lovely man, so I just completely take that.
- [34:55]
B
Very lovely. And he listens to my show mostly this one. Yeah. Because he. Okay, well, he often text me, say, oh, that was a great phone call you had there. So. Because often you get. People say, oh yeah, I listen to you all the time.
- [35:07]
A
You think like, you don't really, do you?
- [35:09]
B
But he really does. That's good and has done for years and years.
- [35:13]
A
No, Chris, Chris is genuinely one of the nicest people in, in British politics and in, in journalism.
- [35:17]
B
Who are the nasty people?
- [35:18]
A
I can't possibly tell you on air. That would be. I wouldn't walk into that trap. But. Yeah, but there are some.
- [35:25]
B
Do you think, I mean, let's get a little bit of history in this. Do you think there has been another time similar to this in political history? Because, I mean, there have been leadership speculations or spills, as the Australians call call them, since time immemorial. The only one I can really think was back in 1968 when I was five. And Harold Wilson, you remember it well, I'm sure. Absolutely. Harold Wilson was Prime Minister. He'd only been in the job for four years by that point and he had some really big political beasts in his cabinet and they genuinely were plotting, I mean, not, not with each other, but they all wanted to succeed him. Roy Jenkins was the primary one and I think by that point he was Chancellor and there was all sorts of briefings going on and Harold Wilson just stamped it out almost with one sentence where he made a speech. I can't remember who it was to. He made a speech. He said, they think I don't know what's going on. I know what's going on. I'm going on. And I think that Keir Starmer has learned from that because there was a couple of phrases he's used this week which effectively said the same thing.
- [36:49]
A
Yeah. He said there is not been a leadership challenge that has been triggered.
- [36:53]
B
Yeah, but I mean, ever the, ever Mr. Process for sure.
- [36:56]
A
Yes. That's actually a very kissed armor argument. And yeah, I don't know, I don't know whether There has been a period in history like this, I think probably not, but equally like, you know, you do look at sort of the Labour. The idea of ousting a Labour leader, which is, as far as I know, not happened in the way that we're looking at now, and certainly not for a Prime minister. That's never happened.
- [37:15]
B
It nearly happened, I think, and I can't remember the exact details of this, but I think Harold Wilson, when Gaitskill was leader, when Macmillan was Prime Minister, was it 1960 or 61? Can't remember the detail, but I'm pretty sure that Harold Wilson tried to oust Gaitskill. Now, it's very different when you're in opposition. And George Brown, I think, entered the fray as well.
- [37:41]
A
And then. But did then the sitting Labour leader resign?
- [37:44]
B
He saw it off.
- [37:45]
A
So that. That's the. Oh, sorry. So he threw off that challenge. So that's exactly it. Right. So there has never been a time where that they have. They have brought down. Okay, go on. In your lifetime, existing labor leader Gordon
- [37:56]
B
Brown brought down Tony Blair.
- [37:57]
A
I said brought down.
- [37:58]
B
Well, I think it was the same.
- [37:59]
A
Is it?
- [38:00]
B
Well, no, I think he did. I. Gordon. Tony Blair did not want to go and Gordon Brown had always maintained that they'd had an agreement that was never
- [38:09]
A
a Labor leadership challenge. And that's one of what I was referring to when I'm saying.
- [38:12]
B
No, but it was. But it was effectively war.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah. Yes. Sorry, I'm. I'm just thinking of. In terms of like formally triggering a Labor leadership challenge. Has not happened, but. Yes, but you're right in the fact that.
- [38:22]
B
Well, no, actually you're not right.
- [38:23]
A
Okay.
- [38:24]
B
Tony Bender at Tenille Kinnock in 1988.
- [38:28]
A
Was it when they were in opposition.
- [38:30]
B
When they were in opposition, yeah. But not. Not as Prime Minister.
- [38:33]
A
Yeah. So that's. That's never happened, but we have had. Is that the only time? I really genuinely don't know.
- [38:38]
B
Well, I have a book in preparation. British.
- [38:42]
A
I was hoping you might say this party.
- [38:44]
B
Are you writing one on this?
- [38:45]
A
I think so.
- [38:45]
B
British political party leadership elections, 1922 onwards.
- [38:50]
A
I see. So what about before 1922? There any labor leadership challenges before then?
- [38:53]
B
Well, Labour had only really got into Parliament.
- [38:56]
A
Didn't exist before then. Yeah.
- [38:57]
B
So that. Actually there was. There was one, but I can't remember the year.
- [39:02]
A
I think we have to come back and redo this section of the podcast. We just don't know, do we? We're just completely scratching.
- [39:07]
B
We can't be experts on everything.
- [39:08]
A
Can't be Experts on everything. But yes, no, but it is.
- [39:11]
B
You what? Tessa will be very pleased she's not doing this podcast.
- [39:14]
A
Would she? She'd be like, I don't want to. I. I don't the answer to that either.
- [39:16]
B
She would want to be changing the subject now to anything else but labor leadership.
- [39:21]
A
Well, that's, in a way good that she's not here for. For such a momentous day. But, yes, I just think going back to the sort of what we've been discussing, it's. It's actually just huge that. That that's never happened, considering the Conservative Party are so good at getting rid of their leaders when it's found that they are not an electoral asset or they're not doing as well as the MPs want them to. But the Labour Party has not done so in. Anywhere near as big success. So. Yeah, I just think that's a really crazy comparison between the two. Between the two. I say main two political parties.
- [39:51]
B
Well, I think we'll call it quits there, but this will be a much shorter episode than we normally do. But we're not going to go into any other. Unless you've got any more fluff. Do we want to talk about Nigel Farage's donation? Do we want to talk about.
- [40:02]
A
I do think this might be something that we should know, just because.
- [40:05]
B
All right, well, let's do it. We'll take a little break and we'll do it after the break. I love it when we get breaking news during a podcast. And you just have got some.
- [40:17]
A
I've got some. I've got some. Josh Simons, the MP for Makerfield, has announced that he will be standing down, which gives Andy Burnham a potential back route into Parliament.
- [40:28]
B
Now, his constituency is Makerfield.
- [40:31]
A
It is.
- [40:32]
B
What are the. What's the statistics there?
- [40:36]
A
Sorry, it's loading. Corey, can you. Can you find it?
- [40:40]
B
Ian McCartney used to be the MP there, didn't he? And of course, Josh Simons, his. Should we say his character has been a little tarnished by his activities for Labour together. Corey has just entered the vestibule.
- [40:53]
A
Here we go.
- [40:55]
B
And he's showing Natasha mate, 18,000.
- [41:02]
A
So he's got a sort of 5,000 or so majority. Over 5,000 over reform, the former number two. Oh, that's not. I'm not sure that's.
- [41:10]
B
Dear Yusuf, your time has come.
- [41:12]
A
Okay, here we go. So a majority of 5,399. And yeah, reform came in second place. Reform will be delighted to hear that.
- [41:20]
B
And Conservatives, many votes.
- [41:24]
A
No, a real slither. A real Slither. A real like tiny. Look at this. This. That's the. That's the makeup.
- [41:29]
B
It's going to be a fantastic contest.
- [41:31]
A
That's going to be. I mean they are going to throw the book at that. But that's something I didn't see. And obviously we've been asking people mainly of Manchester sort of mps that we thought would. Would be likely to.
- [41:44]
B
I don't even know where Meccafield is.
- [41:46]
A
Northwest.
- [41:47]
B
Yeah, I know.
- [41:47]
A
So it's obviously. Yeah, it's obviously.
- [41:48]
B
Is it part of Greater Manchester?
- [41:50]
A
I don't think so. I think it's outside. That's really, really bad for me to not know my geography of the area, isn't it?
- [41:55]
B
Southerners.
- [41:56]
A
Okay, I'm going to do some. Do some more furious Googling. But again, it is. That's really. That's really sort of shocked me because I didn't think that there was going to be someone. But that means that Josh. Josh Simons is ready to.
- [42:06]
B
He's come to the conclusion that he's. Because of all of the scandal and he had to resign as a minister. He's come to the conclusion that he's what, 30 years old? Something like that. He's going to go and do something else.
- [42:18]
A
Or maybe he's got a deal in.
- [42:20]
B
An anti Burnham government has promised him a seat in the House of Lords.
- [42:23]
A
Okay. So it's an area in between. It's in the northwest split between Greater Manchester and Mersey. So side.
- [42:31]
B
Oh, so it's over that side.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah.
- [42:32]
B
All right.
- [42:33]
A
So interesting. But like I say, they have not done hugely well in that sort of part of the world at all because of, because of reform. That's just. It's just wild. But yeah, that's going to be really, really interesting for reform to. To throw it.
- [42:46]
B
Oh, they will be licking their collective.
- [42:48]
A
They will be. Absolutely. Yeah. I wonder who they'll get because they obviously need someone really high profile to. To stand against Andy Burnham if he does want to stand. So
- [42:56]
B
I mean, most of the high profile people have got seats.
- [43:00]
A
Yeah. Although who's the one that lost? Matt Goodwin. Maybe they'll give him another game. Probably not.
- [43:05]
B
Zia Yousef. You could. But I don't know what part of the country he comes from.
- [43:09]
A
See Youssef. I'm not sure, actually. No, I'm not sure.
- [43:12]
B
But it, it's. Or maybe they'll draft in some sort of celebrity.
- [43:17]
A
I would. That's. That's what I would do if I were the Reform Party or draft in someone like Big a. Big and name.
- [43:22]
B
But it needs to be somebody with popular appeal because Andy Burnham does have
- [43:26]
A
to be a man of the people kind of vibe. Yeah. But I reform generally, most of the time. Obviously there are exceptions, of course. Do manage to nail that man of the people 5. So I imagine there's probably people that they've got up their sleeve, ready to go. But, yes, we should talk about Nigel Farage's donation quickly, before we end.
- [43:43]
B
We should.
- [43:44]
A
The £5 million donation. Sorry, it's the same donation. It's actually. It's a gift. We're calling it gift. Difference between a donation and a gift, because donations you have to register and gifts you don't. There are different rules. Now, the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner is expected to say that they will intervene. And look at the case of Nigel Farage getting this 5 million pound gift from Christopher Harborne just before the 2024 election. Now, the Reform Party insists that he has done nothing wrong at all and that everything's going to be above board. He will be proved right that he took legal counsel and he doesn't believe that this needs to be declared. He has said that he used this for security. However, he's also come out as well in a separate interview. I don't know if you saw this earlier today in. Where he said that it actually was a. It was a Brexit gift, which is an interesting sort of turn of phrase.
- [44:31]
B
It is a very interesting turn of phrase because I. I can't think of another occasion when a politician has accepted money from either an individual or company as a reward for services rendered.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah.
- [44:44]
B
Margaret Thatcher, I suppose you could argue, did with the start of her foundation. But there is no such thing as the Nigel Farage Foundation. I've been quite lenient on Nigel Farage on this, I have to say, and people hate it when I say, yes, but I like him, he's a friend of mine, blah, blah, blah. I have become less lenient since I discovered from Mr. C Froggart of this parish, that in an interview with Nick Ferrari last September, Nigel Farage was extolling the virtues of Christopher Harborne's cryptocurrency company.
- [45:19]
A
He was. Was, yeah. Now it feels a little.
- [45:23]
B
You can't say there's no link when you go on the media and do that, I'm afraid.
- [45:28]
A
Yeah. It doesn't look great. Obviously, like I say, the Reform Party insisted. He has. There's no case to answer here and we should say that they've not found anything. But it does look odd, doesn't it? And also people also don't really understand why the rules allegedly say that he shouldn't have declared this 5 million pound gift because he wasn't an MP at the time. And people do go, that sounds a bit weird. Why is that? So it will be interesting to see the, the Standards Commissioner understand it.
- [45:52]
B
The rule Is, and individual MPs are told this when they start, you need to declare anything that you've received in the last 12 months that could give people the impression that you've been influenced.
- [46:06]
A
Exactly. And there's also some reporting out today as well, saying that he also bought a house shortly afterwards and according to those records, paid in cash.
- [46:13]
B
Well, if that's the house I think it is, I think, think it was put in the name of his girlfriend, Laura Ferrari.
- [46:19]
A
No relation which house it is. I'm not sure if it is the Clapton house or not, and I don't know this, but Sky News have said that that part of this was paid in cash. You know who has £1.4 million just in cash sitting around? And look, the Reform Party again say he did have a lot of cash.
- [46:34]
B
How do you even come. Come buy that amount of money in cash? Because, I mean, you get questioned nowadays if you want to pay even a few hundred pounds into your bank account in cash, don't you?
- [46:46]
A
Yeah.
- [46:47]
B
Would you account for that?
- [46:49]
A
I don't know. I really don't. I mean, look, Reform sources say that he was paid a lot of money. They. They say he's paid £1 million for I'm a celebrity, which is a lot
- [46:55]
B
of money that wouldn't have been in cash.
- [46:56]
A
But. Yeah, exactly. Where is that going? And the idea that him paying in cash for this is just. It just seems a bit odd. So there are questions, I think, and the fact that Nigel Farage has been a little bit unreluctant to answer those questions as well makes me very smart eyebrows.
- [47:08]
B
Every day I get accusations saying the media haven't covered this at all. And I'm thinking, you are mad.
- [47:14]
A
I covered it.
- [47:15]
B
It's in all of the papers. I've done it on my program Everybody Day this week. Other programs do that people get it into their heads that there's some sort of profarage conspiracy in the media.
- [47:25]
A
No, I don't see why that is. But equally, we have to cover the Reform Party, who are doing very well in the polls and winning lots of seats. So it doesn't mean we can't give them the scrutiny. And you get the same with Zach Polanski. He's had a lot of media scrutiny. Even though he is winning seats. It has to be both.
- [47:37]
B
Right? Right. Have you enjoyed this?
- [47:38]
A
It's been lovely.
- [47:39]
B
It's been a very different web.
- [47:41]
A
Thank you so much for having me.
- [47:42]
B
Thank you for standing.
- [47:43]
A
I don't think I know too much about Labour Party history, but maybe we can revisit at this. I'll read up on it next time.
- [47:49]
B
Okay. Well, we will back be back hopefully with Tessa on the podcast next Tuesday. In the meantime, I've got quite a lot of questions that come in over the past few days. Surprise, surprise. If you'd like to add to them and we might do a special questions episode next week, send a email to where politics meetshistorylobal.com or just go on the Where Politics Meets History Instagram feed and leave your question there. Goodbye.
- [48:15]
A
Goodbye. This has been a global player Original
- [48:20]
C
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