126. Can't Get EU Out of My Head

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Where Politics Meets History"

Episode 126: Can't Get EU Out of My Head
Date: May 19, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale (broadcaster) & Dr. Tessa Dunlop (historian)

Episode Overview

In this lively and opinionated episode, Iain Dale and Dr. Tessa Dunlop dissect the week’s biggest political news—anchored around the swirling debate over Brexit’s impact, calls to rejoin the EU, and how recent events echo 1970s-era political calamity. With their signature wit and good-natured bickering, Iain and Tessa explore Labour’s leadership challenges, Eurovision controversies, and the sorry state of British political stability, all while weaving in historical parallels from Edward Heath’s troubled tenure to today. Expect sharp analysis, incisive commentary, and plenty of humorous digs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Brexit Fatigue and a Potential Return to the EU

[00:02, 19:40, 20:31, 21:11]

• Tessa emphatically expresses her desire to rejoin the EU:

  “I don't want to go back into the Customs Unit. I want to go back into the EU. I think it might take some persuading from the EU, but we've got a strong hand because of our military and intelligence expertise and because of what's happening on the other side...” ([00:02], [19:40])

• Iain pushes back, noting the EU isn’t a military body, but Tessa suggests, in a destabilized world, Britain’s role could be persuasive ([00:19], [19:54]).
• The pair discuss how Wes Streeting, a Labour figure, is the first in a decade to “grasp the nettle” and vocalize that Brexit has been “catastrophic.”
• They debate whether a Labour manifesto pledge would be enough to trigger a return to Europe or if a referendum is inevitable ([21:11]).

2. Labour Party Upheaval: Leadership, Factions, & Brexit Policy

[12:20, 13:54, 16:00, 18:34, 19:22, 49:00]

• Iain and Tessa analyze Labour’s turbulence, with Andy Burnham seen as the self-styled “messiah” but facing questions of authenticity:

  “This sense of entitlement that he has to think, oh well, I can just walk into a constituency and win it. I don't think he's going to win.” – Iain ([12:20])

• Both agree Angela Rayner is likely to stand for Labour leadership, regardless of Burnham ([49:46]).
• Tessa is initially furious at Wes Streeting for leaving his health post but moves to admiration when he “calls out” the collective Labour denial over Brexit’s damage ([13:54], [16:00]).
• Iain observes that Labour’s new pro-European stance puts pressure on the Lib Dems:

  “…it makes Labour now look the Pro European party and the Liberal Democrats… are now putting down a motion… to sort of go back into a customs union and they're challenging Wes Streeting to vote for that because they're saying if he doesn't, he's a hypocrite.” ([19:22])

• There’s detailed exploration of Labour’s factional divide between “London metropolitan” and “classic working class” wings ([47:06]), and a listener question asks if the party could even split.

3. Eurovision: Politics, Culture and Voting Blocs

[01:55–09:06]

• Tessa and Iain debate the ever-political nature of Eurovision, including Britain’s perennial underperformance and jury vs. public voting:

  “Britain thinks it's not even worth putting a… artist who's got a record deal…they skim along the dregs and find some weird eccentric in a pink bonus.” – Tessa ([05:46])

• Discussion of the “Israeli lobby,” block voting, and controversy over Israel’s placement ([05:19], [07:14]).
• Iain claims BBC’s reluctance to “win” Eurovision is due to the cost of hosting; Tessa disagrees ([06:28]).
• Light-hearted banter about their own Eurovision voting habits and the Moldovan and Romanian entries:

  “You are the Greece and Cyprus of British Eurovision, aren't you?” – Iain to Tessa ([07:41])

4. Echoes of the 1970s: Edward Heath, Strikes, and National Mood

[34:21–44:26]

• Dr. Dunlop draws a direct historical parallel between modern malaise and 1974, the year of her birth, outlining:
  • Edward Heath's leadership struggles
  • The UK’s economic crisis, strikes, and the “who governs Britain?” election
  • Parallels with Keir Starmer: “He was a committee man… similar to Starmer… he wasn’t a leader in the traditional sense.” – Iain ([35:27])
• In-depth recounting of Heath’s failings: loss of authority, mishandling unions, and his personality flaws (emotionally “robotic” and a poor communicator).

  “Prime ministers that can't read the room… that's what links…Heath, Theresa May and… Keir Starmer.” – Tessa ([44:26])

• Broader reflections on Britain’s loss of imperial identity, national diminishment, and failure to adapt to a “team player” mentality in Europe:

  “The entitlement of our identity hasn't gone, but the reality is…being British has diminished beyond…in a way that no other country in the modern era has seen an equivalent diminishment.” – Tessa ([23:51])

5. Question Time: Labour’s Fate, Political Representation, and Class

[45:15, 49:11, 50:36]

• Listener Will (Mid-Devon) prompts a discussion on whether Labour is doomed to splinter given metropolitan/class divides.
• Another listener, Andrew, worries Labour will fail to represent left-leaning millennials, and Tessa voices a common frustration:

  “Do you feel that the current Labour government realizes that for people like me they are what we have been waiting for since we have become politically literate as teenagers?” ([50:36])

• Iain counters that right-wing parties don’t necessarily get an easier ride from the public or media ([51:42]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On British Leadership Spirals:

  “Larry the Cat will be welcoming in his seventh Prime Minister. It's shameful.” – Tessa ([00:23], [21:58])

• On Post-Empire Identity:

  “The entitlement of our identity hasn't gone, but the reality is, of being British has diminished beyond in a way that no other country… has seen…” – Tessa ([23:51])

• On Labour’s Brexit Denial:

  “...the denial that goes on. And you’ve spoken to this in the Labour Party, particularly, where we know most of them are Remainers pretending they’re quite happy…” – Tessa ([14:45])

• On Eurovision Commentary:

  “That’s the role of the commentator at Eurovision. That’s what Terry Wogan always used to do. It’s a tradition.” – Iain ([03:22])

• On the Authority Gap in Politics:

  “...the idea of the educated, classy man running and governing us, that again... is I think a historic problem that we've long lumbered under.” – Tessa ([50:36])

• On the Corrosive Impact of Brexit:

  “This has been bad for our country.” – Tessa ([16:00])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:02 — Tessa’s wish to rejoin the EU, opening debate on military influence.
• 01:27 — Exchange on Labour turmoil, Andy Burnham & Wes Streeting.
• 01:55–09:06 — Extended Eurovision segment: voting politics, Israel, public vs. jury results.
• 12:20 — Labour's turbulent week, Burnham's leadership bid.
• 13:54 — First reactions to Wes Streeting’s honesty on Brexit.
• 16:00 — Why Streeting’s admission on Brexit is so significant.
• 18:20–21:11 — Debating if Labour would need a referendum to rejoin EU.
• 23:51–27:05 — Delving into lost British identity post-Empire and historical impermanence.
• 34:21–44:26 — Deep-dive historical parallel: Edward Heath, economic crisis, union strife.
• 47:06 — Divisions within Labour and the risk of party schism.
• 49:11–49:46 — Listener question on Labour’s leadership: Angela Rayner and class politics.
• 50:36 — Second listener question: youth, Labour and standards, Farage.
• 54:46 — Listener George on Labour leadership preferences; who can win swing voters?

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Final Thoughts & Tone

As ever, the conversation is brisk, frank, and irreverent. Tessa and Iain’s combative chemistry shines, particularly as they navigate political taboos (Brexit regret, class, party identity) and historical analogies with relish. The tone is both exasperated with and affectionate toward Britain’s perpetual cycles of drama, revealing that when it comes to politics, history rarely repeats itself exactly—but it certainly rhymes.

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Transcript

[Tessa]

This is a Global Player original podcast. I don't want to go back into the Customs Unit. I want to go back into the eu. I think it might take some persuading from the eu, but we've got a strong hand because of our military and intelligence expertise and because of what's happening

[Ian]

on the other side, given that the EU isn't a military body.

[Tessa]

I know, but it doesn't matter. I think that actually.

[Ian]

That's all right, then.

[Tessa]

I mean, it's embarrassing where we're at at the moment. We're holding the record. Larry the Cat will be welcoming in his seventh Prime Minister. It's shameful. Ian,

[Ian]

Can I first apologize to all of those people who've been in touch to say how much they enjoyed Natasha Clarke on the podcast on Thursday?

[Tessa]

You're a fucker. Actually, I can't believe I just started by swearing, but I have been channeling Ted Heath, Edward Heath for the second section of. Or maybe the third section of the pod, because arguably the year of my birth, 1974, was a worse year to live in than 2026. And you know what he said? He used the F word when he was describing Conservative MPs. Do you know the exact expression? Yes. He said, they're either shits, bloody shits or fucking shits.

[Ian]

Well, that's about the only thing I've ever agreed with him on. So we're going to talk about him later. We're going to obviously talk about all the labor shenanigans and no doubt other things will rear their ugly heads as well.

[Tessa]

Altercation with Michael Gove. Why West Streeting made me feel different about myself. Seriously. He gave me a physical change. I had a moment.

[Ian]

Why didn't you do that to me?

[Tessa]

I suddenly wasn't sick anymore, Ian. I got better immediately. Wes treating spoke and I'd just been slagging him off on the radio because he had abandoned the Health Secretary role. And suddenly this epiphany, this cloud we called out the elephant in the room that I see and you don't. That is the Brexit shit. Anyway, you wanted to keep it light. So let's talk about the Eurovision.

[Ian]

Let's talk about Eurovision.

[Tessa]

Except these days, Eurovision is far from light, my friend.

[Ian]

What do you mean by that?

[Tessa]

Well, Ian, five countries did boycott Eurovision.

[Ian]

Do you know why? Apparently, in at least two of their cases, it was because they didn't want to risk having to host it the next year if they won.

[Tessa]

Do you really believe that?

[Ian]

I do believe that. Because it costs a shed load of Money for the host broadcaster, which they can never get. So I do genuinely believe that when Bulgaria won on Saturday, I tweeted that there would be several dozen TV executives in Sofia, sort of probably walking on the edge of a very high building the next morning, because they will not welcome this.

[Tessa]

Well, lucky that the Israeli lobby got in the way of Romania coming any higher up. Well, it's. Come on, Ian, let's just. We've got to own it. I mean, that was a second rate song. And as Graham Norton, by the way, Graham Norton, he talks more than me. He needs to put a plug in it. He was, I thought so often, as my teenager, resident teenager, said, he needs to really stop talking about people's appearances.

[Ian]

Well, you see, I totally disagree with that.

[Tessa]

You're an old man. You're an old gay man.

[Ian]

Why are you not allowed to mention people's appearances nowadays?

[Tessa]

Well, the young ones. I mean, it's predominantly a young contest with young contestants, isn't it? And I think he just was so sort of Sarki.

[Ian]

But that's the role of the commentator at Eurovision. That's what Terry Wogan always used to do. It's a tradition.

[Tessa]

Well, it might be a tradition. It might need an upscaling or an overhaul.

[Ian]

Or make it boring, then.

[Tessa]

I'm not saying you necessarily need to make it boring. You could just make it.

[Ian]

Well, how. How do you make it more interesting? By not commenting on the costumes that people are wearing or their appearance.

[Tessa]

I think there's a way of doing it. Perhaps if you had a woman hosting it. No, I'm genuine. Perhaps it wouldn't feel quite so ick.

[Ian]

Well, last year they had three women hosting it. I mean, not doing the commentary, but.

[Tessa]

I know, but I'm talking about, you know, the British kind of.

[Ian]

Yeah, let's have Stacey Dooley commentating.

[Tessa]

Maybe it's just interesting that we talk all over the host speaking. They don't do that in other countries. You realize, don't you? For example, look, the Romanian commentary is much more circumscribed and just slotted into the bits where it's, you know, meant to go.

[Ian]

Yeah, but the, the, the two hosts this year were absolutely appalling.

[Tessa]

That's part of the joy.

[Ian]

And he pointed that out that they were appalling. There was no chemistry between them whatsoever. The guy who was doing it looked as if he was from, like 1986 with a medallion over his hairy chest.

[Tessa]

It's amazing how we've already started arguing again. Just, you know, one pod. I've missed One pod.

[Ian]

Why do you think people listen?

[Tessa]

In the entire year of podding with Ian, I had a malady last week.

[Ian]

It's the second one, actually. How many have I missed?

[Tessa]

Yeah, but you have an easier life than me. Of course.

[Ian]

How do. How do I have an easier life than me?

[Tessa]

Let's not unpack that.

[Ian]

Anyway, back to Eurovision. I thought Sweden was the best song and they came, like, near us at the bottom and I mean, our song. What an embarrassment that was.

[Tessa]

Yeah, because. But that's the interesting thing, the cognitive dissonance between. And I know you poo pooed this, but between Israel spending a million pounds trying to make sure they can shore up their vote, and they do it very effectively, despite, as Graham Norton said, the mixed reception to Israel's success in.

[Ian]

Yeah, he was choosing his words carefully.

[Tessa]

The only time in the entire evening was when he chose his words carefully.

[Ian]

Yeah. So, Ben, I reckon when the Israeli act came on, I reckon that every single word that he uttered then was scripted in front of him and probably not by him. 100%, which is ridiculous.

[Tessa]

It does.

[Ian]

It wasn't actually a bad song. It wasn't a brilliant song, but it wasn't a bad song. But most of the songs in that contest were diabolically awful. I just think it probably deserves seven or eighth place rather than second.

[Tessa]

Oh, no, it didn't, Ian. Anyway, let's not go there. The bottom line is, it's fascinating that Britain thinks it's not even worth putting a. What do you call an artist who's got a record deal? There's a name for it. Well, an artist with a record deal. That one. They don't even think it's worth staging someone with a track record, they skim along the dregs and find some weird eccentric in a pink bonus.

[Ian]

I know if they put me in charge of choosing next year's entry, I. I know I could find somebody who would get us in the top five.

[Tessa]

So speak to this disconnect why Britain doesn't believe it's worth a nanosecond of effort to do reasonably well. We're not talking about winning it.

[Ian]

Well, it does go back to the cost of hosting it the next year if you win.

[Tessa]

I don't believe that.

[Ian]

Well, it's true. I mean, look, I do know a lot about Eurovision and I can absolutely assure you that that is the way BBC executives think.

[Tessa]

So then why is Israel so keen on trying to win it? Because they very nearly did win it.

[Ian]

Because they want to win the sort of PR contest and we don't want to finish. Bear in mind that I think. Wasn't it the case. I think I got this the right way round. The general public voted for the Israeli song far more than the juries did.

[Tessa]

I think it was fairly well represented by the jury, but, yeah, the general public pushed it right up. But it's interesting, isn't it, that why

[Ian]

do people have 10 votes? It never used to be that way.

[Tessa]

Oh, they've brought it down. That's to do with the whole Israeli lobby, that if you have block votes of 20, because up until last year, you could vote 20 times. Yeah, I thought you knew.

[Ian]

Why can't you just have one?

[Tessa]

I thought you knew a lot about.

[Ian]

Yeah, I know. Mainly. I know about it in the 1980s and 90s. But authority. Why can't we all just have one vote? I mean, that's what normal democracy is, isn't it?

[Tessa]

Well, I spent five votes on one song and five in another. Do you want to guess?

[Ian]

Possibly. Romania and Moldova.

[Tessa]

Yeah. Well done.

[Ian]

You see, you are the Greece and Cyprus of British Eurovision, aren't you?

[Tessa]

Don't. Yeah, I love the Moldovan song. We've had Moldova. It was all about the Romanian language. It spoke to me. I almost want to write to him and say, would you promote my Romanian GCSE campaign?

[Ian]

I like the. I did like the Romanian one. I put that number three in my top five. Did have a slightly dodgy title, though. Choke Me.

[Tessa]

I asked Dan to translate Choke Me and he refused. Actually, then a Romanian follower told me how to translate it, but I'm not going to repeat it. The point is, it was highly sexed and I think some of the Orthodox Church in Romania is semi appalled by this raging sex song, but it did them fair play.

[Ian]

It was a good song, though. It was a good tune and number three.

[Tessa]

And actually, countries like Bulgaria and Romania do struggle, I think, disproportionately with their public image, and it was great to see them do so well.

[Ian]

Well, when I watched the Bulgarian song for the first time, I thought, well, I've never heard of sort of like Indian influences on a Eurovision song, so it was quite innovative from that point of view. I did think it went on a bit. It was a bit boring in the constant repetition of whatever the word was. Bang. What was it? Bangara or something?

[Tessa]

It's called. Catchy.

[Ian]

Yep. But when I heard it a second time and a third time, it got me more than it did the first.

[Tessa]

Do you think that we might be getting boring now about the Eurovision?

[Ian]

It's Very possible. Can I talk about Tom Hanks? Not everyone watches it. Go on.

[Tessa]

So basically I was, did you meet him? I was too sick for you. But I managed to.

[Ian]

Yes, this was noted. I mean, talk about loyalty.

[Tessa]

I had a temperature, but I thought, I can't do them both, so I will select the one that pays me better. I couldn't do both and I felt like cat shit. And anyway, I didn't really have to perform very much. I just had to turn up at the World War II with Tom Hanks press night. It's a 20 episode series premiering on Sky History, and guess how many episodes I appear in?

[Ian]

One.

[Tessa]

Yeah. But I was asked if I would represent the series because obviously they couldn't afford to fly Tom Hanks in on the press night. And I was like, oh, go on then, I'll do that. It'd been agreed a while back. And so I walk in and I'm going to be sitting on the stage with three men because it's. Obviously there's a shortage of women when it comes to talking about World War II. And I walk down the little alleyway in the Imperial War Museum and I see some familiar historic male faces. And one of them summons me over and he says, you know, I didn't even get asked to be in the series. And I looked at all these men and I could feel their heat, the heat of their gaze. And I knew that as I retreated up onto the stage, the gaze would not be any more forgiving. So I looked at them and I said, well, boys, we all know I'm only here because I'm a woman. And with that, I, span on my heel, walked onto the stage and wiped the floor with the other three male, I would call them panellists, but in that moment, with a temperature, they were contestants.

[Ian]

So you had a good time, even though you were very, very ill?

[Tessa]

I was too ill to talk to you. Yeah, I was in bed for two days.

[Ian]

Had a nice chat with Natasha.

[Tessa]

I know, it's good. We got some nice comments, actually.

[Ian]

Meanwhile, I spent yesterday in the toon. I went to Newcastle to watch Newcastle vs West Ham via corporate entertainment.

[Tessa]

I hate that bit, that last bit. I thought for a moment you were going to be almost Andy Burnham, authentic, in a real old school football vest, thrusting your Eurovision fist into the air, pumping against the wires.

[Ian]

I was thrusting my fist into the air quite often, I can tell you that. Oh, my God, it was awful.

[Tessa]

Well, don't, don't ever accept.

[Ian]

It's a great ground. St. James's part is a really wonderful

[Tessa]

ground, though, by the way. Ian is so well healed that at the weekend he turned down a corporate gig in Manchester because it was too far to go to.

[Ian]

Well, no, it was in the middle of my forthcoming holiday and I thought, no, I'm not going. The only thing I'll interrupt my holiday for is to record this podcast and I'm even contemplating not doing that.

[Tessa]

Well, especially if I pull any more Sukis. But I've suggested that Corey and I could perhaps do the corporate gig for you. Just let them know.

[Ian]

How much do you know about housing?

[Tessa]

Oh, lots. Almost as much as you do about the Eurovision. Is it time for a break?

[Ian]

I think it might be. So it's been quite a week in the world of Labour politics, hasn't it? Which obviously we didn't talk about on Thursday because you weren't here. It's quite difficult to predict what's going to happen in that. Andy Burnham is sort of presenting himself as the Labour messiah who's coming to save them. But this sense of entitlement that he has to think, oh, well, I can just walk into a constituency and win it. I don't think he's going to win.

[Tessa]

Well, I'm now hoping he doesn't. I actually. Not only was I well enough to talk to Tom Hanks, but I also found it within me to go to Times Radio to meet Michael Go on Saturday. First time I've ever met Michael Gove. He's more of the Conservative Jacob Rees Mogg category than your kind of category. I think he's more establishment, old school Tory. Isn't he, Gove?

[Ian]

Well, he's not really, when you look at his background.

[Tessa]

Adopted, I think.

[Ian]

Adopted from Aberdeen.

[Tessa]

Yeah, very Scottish. Gove, I think, was fairly enamored with Wes Streeting and I. This was prior to Wes Streeting's announcement that same day that, yes, guess what? Leaving the EU has been a catastrophic mistake for Britain. And I was still feeling very angry with Streeting for abandoning the nhs, the one department that's been a success story, except for the resident doctor strike. We've seen waiting lists come down. He's been really effective on calling out misogyny in the nhs and a failure

[Ian]

to understand all this, which is obviously the main problem.

[Tessa]

Feeling woman's pain, actually. No growing waiting lists for women across the board disproportionately. And Wes treating. Absolutely nailed that on Woman's Hour. He was amazing the other day and I felt, how dare you. Just because you think you might be in with a shower number 10, you know, RIP up the rule book and leave your department.

[Ian]

I don't think it was quite that simple. I think he. Well, if you. Did you read his resignation letter? Because.

[Tessa]

Drift.

[Ian]

Yeah. Where the. Do you know that that whole paragraph reminded me of where there is discord, maybe bring harmony, because it's where there. Where there should be vision, there is vacuum, where there is something that was Shakespearean. Yeah. And I think I actually genuinely believe him, that he's just totally lost confidence in Keir Starmer's ability to get them out of this.

[Tessa]

My issue, and I think maybe it just didn't happen quickly enough for me, was that kind of leaving office, slopping out of office, and then there was a kind of weird couple of days of waiting hands in his resignation letter. Thank God he actually manages to, I think, serve a political blinder later in the day on Saturday. And I found myself having this sort of epiphany, a moment where finally, a bit like, it's one thing your husband having an affair, but it's another him denying he's having or he's had the affair. And for me, it's one thing leaving the eu, but the denial that goes on. And you've spoken to this in the Labour Party, particularly, where we know most of them are Remainers pretending they're quite happy with, you know, holding on to

[Ian]

Brexit, if you remember. I think I'm right in remembering this. On Monday last week, I said, the problem with Keir Starmer's speech last Monday was that he had no big announcement. It was all a rehash of things that he had said this time last year. And I said, if he'd said, well, we're now going to propose rejoining the eu, we wouldn't be talking about Keir Starmer's future in the media. We would be talking about whether we should join the eu. And what are we going to do on the program tonight, Tessa? We're going to be talking about that.

[Tessa]

It's the first time, though, why it's really significant. Now, I know Wes Streeting is not the favourite to win the Prime Ministerial Chair. We're going to see Burnham, I think, win. I disagree with you. I think he'll win the by election in Greater Manchester. We also think, both of us, that Angela Rayner will throw her hat into the ring. But Wes Streeting is in with a shout of stewarding the country and he's the first politician in 10 years since Brexit who's actually grasp the nettle. This has been bad for our Country.

[Ian]

Do you think it's because he genuinely believes it, or do you think that this is a tactical masterstroke by West Streeting to put Andy Burnham on the spot?

[Tessa]

I think both. I think it's impossible to have been in government and to have not seen the damage that the wrecking ball of Brexit has done. We know that Rachel Reese came out, she actually massaged the figures up as to the financial fallout, the cost of Brexit and even you. I remember we did a clip and it went viral. Oh, look, even, even the Brexiteer can't disabuse us of the fact we're all poorer because of Brexit. That's the reality.

[Ian]

What are you talking about?

[Tessa]

Yeah, we discussed it. We discussed it and you said, oh, even if we are a bit poorer. I mean, we are poor, Ian, but

[Ian]

we don't know that for a fact.

[Tessa]

Oh, God. You see?

[Ian]

I mean, so you, you will say, oh, we're 4% poorer. Somebody else will say, we're 8% poorer. Somebody else will say we're 12% poorer. The fact is, nobody can prove it either way. I mean, I was, I wasn't saying we were necessarily poorer. I was saying I didn't vote on that basis and it didn't particularly bother me whether we would be a little bit poorer or a little bit richer.

[Tessa]

Which spoke to your own personal circumstances. And it's always.

[Ian]

No, it doesn't speak to my personal circumstances. It speaks to the fact that I think Britain should be able to control its own laws.

[Tessa]

Yeah.

[Ian]

And sadly, which we now do.

[Tessa]

Actually. No, it just. Oh, let me swig from my cola bottle with that really annoying plastic tag attached to it. A rule that we had absolutely no input over the implication or the input of. Let's not go down the Brexit rabbit.

[Ian]

I think most of it.

[Tessa]

Well, Wes treating. Did actually kicked it off on Saturday afternoon.

[Ian]

But, but don't you think, though, that if you look at the demographics of that constituency, if, if Andy Burnham, I mean, he's. Now, of course, on Saturday, he also said, well, we need to look at this, but now look at what we're going back into. The.

[Tessa]

He's denied it now.

[Ian]

Now he's denied it again. But we, we have a clip which we're going to play out on the program tonight of an interview he gave at the Labour conference last year on where he absolutely made clear what his position was on the eu and it's very akin to yours.

[Tessa]

Yeah, that's what I said. Most sane minded members of The Labour Party want to go back in the eu.

[Ian]

You see, this is where Andy Burnham has a real problem, because he's flaky, he doesn't have an ideological grounding, he will be whatever you want him to be.

[Tessa]

And the reform voters in. What's it called? Mafeking or mackerel? Where the hell is it?

[Ian]

Makerfield.

[Tessa]

Makerfield. The reform voters in Makerfield ain't gonna vote for a straw man who's posturing as a Remainer. So he's gonna have to dye himself light blue and say that he's all behind Brexit. And then exactly what was hamstrung Starmer? The lines he established before he took office. So whether in the case it was we're not budging on the single market or in the Customs Union, or on tax or on National Insurance, etc. Will also then hamstring Andy. The ones in relation to the eu. West Streeting's got a freer hand.

[Ian]

The other corollary of this, of course, is that it makes Labour now look, the Pro European party and the Liberal Democrats are. So they're now putting down a motion, I think, to be voted on Wednesday to sort of go back into a customs union and they're challenging West Streeting to vote for that because they're saying if he doesn't, he's a hypocrite.

[Tessa]

I don't want to go back into the Customs unit, I want to go back into the eu. I think it might take some persuading from the eu, but we've got a strong hand because of our military and intelligence expertise and because of what's happening

[Ian]

on the other side, given that the EU isn't a military body.

[Tessa]

I know, but it doesn't matter. I think that actually.

[Ian]

That's all right, then.

[Tessa]

No, but it's about the team leaning in the same direction. And I think Trump as the destabiliser means that the EU would be more receptive to ideas.

[Ian]

But the eu, according to something I read this morning, is planning for a Nigel Farage premiership, which says to me that they're not going to be particularly keen to do any sort of renegotiation in advance of the next election, because they are counting on Farage winning it. And whatever Starmer or Streeting or Burnham agrees with them, Farage will go back on.

[Tessa]

Yeah, but all that'll happen is we'll go into the next election with, ideally, Wes Streeting offering the voters a Remain ticket versus Farage offering a harder version of Brexit. That will be a very Clear.

[Ian]

Brexit's already happened, so it can't be any harder.

[Tessa]

Harder version?

[Ian]

No, because what's a harder version?

[Tessa]

The whole reason why flocks droves of Leave voters doubled down and voted reform is they're not happy with the Brexit that's been delivered. Most of them don't feel it's strong enough.

[Ian]

What is a harder version?

[Tessa]

I don't know. Getting a gun off the coast of Calais. I mean, I don't know. To deflate the dinghies. I don't know what a harder version of Brexit is. But if you ask most Leave voters, okay, they're not happy.

[Ian]

Let me hook this to you. Do you think if Labour put it in their manifesto the next election that would be enough, or do you think there would have to be another referendum?

[Tessa]

I think it would be enough to start a significant conversation. I don't believe it necessarily would call for another referendum because we know how dangerous.

[Ian]

We don't like to listen to the people, do we?

[Tessa]

But what's interesting is we know that we've got rest of nationalists in three of the four British nations and of course that would totally scupper all the kind of indie question. Come again? Indie question in Scotland.

[Ian]

No, it wouldn't.

[Tessa]

Yes, it would, because they're premising that they need another referendum because of the changed circumstances, because we've left the eu,

[Ian]

that they will still fight for independence regardless of whether we're in the EU or not. And you know that.

[Tessa]

Such a bloody basket case. Do you know that Denmark's oldest newspaper said that the prime ministerial longevity of a small, a dwarf hamster was longer than that of the British leader? I mean, it's embarrassing where we're at at the moment. And you can say, oh, there's, you know, incumbents unpopular right across the continent, but we're holding the record. Larry the Cat will be welcoming in his seventh Prime Minister. It's shameful, Ian.

[Ian]

It has happened before, though. I mean, this podcast is called Where Politics Meets History. If you go back to the Napoleonic Wars. Yeah. If you go back to the sort of 1830s, it happened. Oh, great.

[Tessa]

Corey, did you hear that?

[Ian]

I mean, I agree with you to an extent because I remember all the fun we used to have at the Italians expense when they would have a change of government every six months. So I, I don't necessarily agree with you. It doesn't look good. But when you have a shit Prime Minister, let's just get rid of them two things.

[Tessa]

I was going to do a comparison with the Revolving door. That was the Napoleonic Wars. And I thought, no, do you know what? We can't take our cue from nearly 200 years ago, in fact, over 200 years ago. That's why we're going to go back to 1974, because in some ways it's more informative and speaks more to our times. I think there is, and I believe that we're still catching up with this extraordinary national demise we've seen. If you look at 74, this coming to terms with the loss of empire. People at the time said it's extraordinary how we've just sort of deflated from being an empire to just being Little Britain. And it hasn't really had any repercussions. And I would argue, in fact, no, this whole. The Brexit, the changing prime ministers, this desperately kind of quest to find out what Britishness is today is part and parcel of that extraordinary shrinkage in the mid 20th century. The entitlement of our identity hasn't gone, but the reality is, of being British has diminished beyond in. In a way that no other country in the modern era has seen an equivalent diminishment. No other country.

[Ian]

It's a diminution, not a diminishment.

[Tessa]

Is it really?

[Ian]

Yeah, I totally disagree with you. I. I think you're talking absolute rubbish with that theory because I remember when I first used to go to Germany as a teenager and we were the laughing stock of Europe because of our industrial record, which had nothing to do with the loss of empire. But German English schoolbooks were absolutely dominated by the theme of Britain looking for a new role in the world because of loss of empire. And I remember thinking to myself, well, this is a new one on me. This is not a subject that I've ever heard being discussed, particularly. We're not obsessed by it and I genuinely don't. I mean, I was born sort of at the tail end of us, sort of giving away our colonies and giving them independence. The imperial abyss.

[Tessa]

Yes, that's what it was, Ian.

[Ian]

Really?

[Tessa]

Yes, really.

[Ian]

But I don't. And so I was probably the first generation to grow up not really having any great thoughts about empire. It didn't dominate the politics of the 1980s at all.

[Tessa]

But I think the entitlement of both our leadership and our electorate, that idea of us being the first among each equals in the Western world, aside from America, has informed the way we've played our political hand again and again. If we're going to come to Heath in a minute, but when we can look at him as long as Playing down the. The unions and Northern Ireland. He was desperately clawing his way into what wasn't then the eu. It was a customs union. Was it. Was it sort of.

[Ian]

Well, it was a common market. Yeah.

[Tessa]

Quarter of a century later picking it.

[Ian]

But you could argue that that was a huge mistake because Britain wasn't used to being part of a group of nations that pooled their sovereignty. It was used to being head of a group of nations.

[Tessa]

I guess my case.

[Ian]

Well, no, I don't think it bolsters your case at all. I think it was because we didn't have the empire anymore. We thought, well we'll throw our lot in with Europe, but on an economic basis, not a political basis. That I think has been where the chasm has occurred because we were not told that it would develop into a political entity. And it's as clear as night follows day that that is its destination. It will be a United States of Europe.

[Tessa]

Well, it won't. It won't necessarily be United States.

[Ian]

Well, it will. It has to be.

[Tessa]

Political mandate is. Is clear for all to see. But what's interesting.

[Ian]

But it wasn't at the time. Do you agree, do you agree that?

[Tessa]

Yes, but on the one hand you've said you totally disagree with my thesis, which is we. That our behavior as a nation over the 50 years. I correct myself, I said 25 earlier. Has been informed by our loss. The great British brand on the world stage. We're not natural team players because of this very recent heritage. I'm not blaming us. I think it's totally understandable.

[Ian]

I think that's right. I agree with that.

[Tessa]

So I've talked you around.

[Ian]

No, you haven't talked me round. I agree. I agree with that sentence that you just said. I don't agree with your initial thesis.

[Tessa]

So then we enter into this collective form of trading which becomes a form of governance. A macro style pan European vision.

[Ian]

But we only. We didn't like that because we weren't expecting it to be a form of governance. We were expecting it to be a form of governance over trading relations. But that was it.

[Tessa]

And interesting that other European countries haven't had the same problem with the emergence of this political role. And I would say that is informed by this extraordinary empire which defined us until after the Second World War.

[Ian]

No, their. The reason that they were quite happy to go down that road was because of the overhang of the Second World War. They just were obsessed with it not happening again in a way that we weren't as a nation because we weren't invaded.

[Tessa]

Some of us weren't. Ed Heath. Ted Heath was very obsessed. Winston Churchill was obsessed before.

[Ian]

No, no, no, no, no. You see, if we're gonna go into the history of Churchill on this, I would be prepared to lose the argument, because if you're going to tell me that Churchill wanted a United States of Europe with Britain in it, you would be wholly wrong.

[Tessa]

But he understood the need for cooperation.

[Ian]

Absolutely.

[Tessa]

I think it's nearly time for a break. I just want to finally say, in terms of calling out the elephant in the room, which is what I felt Wes treating did. It was interesting. We had this discussion with Michael Gove. I didn't give him as hard a time of. As I naturally would have done, despite him being the architect of Brexit, because I knew he was the Education Secretary and I thought he might be able to help my Romanian GCSE hustle. But he. I mean, I couldn't get over it. She was asking him, the presenter, Jane Mulkarins. What do you think, Michael, about. About, you know, why we've had all these Prime Ministers? Are we ungovernable? Which is a sort of zeitgeist question. And he.

[Ian]

Lazy question.

[Tessa]

He then said, there's an inherent instability in our system. And he cited two reasons. One, the way that parties can ask their leaders, and two, the way in which party members can select the leaders. And I was like, but hang on a minute, mate. We've been historically applauded for having a very stable system with exactly those two structures in place. The one thing that's changed is the Brexit. It's the big. The big B.

[Ian]

You're obsessed.

[Tessa]

So is where's totally obsessed. And you love Wes.

[Ian]

I don't love Wes.

[Tessa]

Do you fancy him a bit?

[Ian]

No, I like him. He's a friend.

[Tessa]

Nickel Micklebit.

[Ian]

No, I'm not going to go there. Despite how. How often you try and provoke me.

[Tessa]

I almost fancy him now. Do you bite his little chubby cheek?

[Ian]

I'm not having a three with you and him.

[Tessa]

Time for a break.

[Ian]

No, no, no, no, no. Because you've now completely ruined my train of thought.

[Tessa]

Because you're thinking about words just to

[Ian]

find a final word on ungovernability. Because I don't. I don't believe. Yeah, it's unusual for you want to do a bit of smart, isn't it? So it's okay when she wants to do smart? Well, if I introduce it, she goes,

[Tessa]

can we clip this bit for the trap?

[Ian]

Anyway, the reason why it appears that we are ungovernable is because politicians, since the days of John Major followed through to the Tony Blair years, Gordon Brown, David Cameron and the rest, they have ceded political power to undemocratic quangos and agencies. So the politicians, actually, although the electorate think that they have the responsibility for things, the politicians don't anymore, don't worry,

[Tessa]

because Andy Burnham's going to sort all that out by keeping it local, mate. Although, you know, my little brother's very successful in Scotland these days, when I look at the cost of devolution, if we make it ever more local, who pays for this multi layered governance? That's what I want to know.

[Ian]

Well, it'll be the likes of Yoamitasa in the south of England.

[Tessa]

Time for a break, please. The cash cows need a rest.

[Corey]

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[Ian]

Go on.

[Tessa]

No, let Corey speak. The voice of God.

[Ian]

1212.

[Tessa]

Hi, Corey.

[Ian]

Diminishment is a word.

[Tessa]

Yes.

[Ian]

You see, it's an ugly word though.

[Tessa]

But I rolled over, you know, the authority gap. Tall, older, male. Ian must be right. What was it you tried to replace diminishment with diminution. And what does that mean?

[Ian]

The same as diminishment.

[Tessa]

Does it really, Corey? Dextrin definition. Well, we've all, we've both rather learnt something, so can we go into history briefly?

[Ian]

Go on then.

[Tessa]

The great year that I was born. What do you, when you think of 1970, 24? Give me some time.

[Ian]

I think of my, my at Waterloo. Napoleon did surrender and I remember watching that live from the Dome in Brighton. I did think the conductor, Swedish conductor, came on dressed as Napoleon. It brought the house down. Katie Boyle was the hostess of the whole evening.

[Tessa]

When I had an altercation with Michael Go over the weekend, I did think, you know, will I invite him to be my new podcast partner just to raise, you know, raise the intellectual bar.

[Ian]

Talking of new podcast partners, just to go off on a tangent because I know you love it when I do that. Last Tuesday I sent Jackie Smith a text saying, can't imagine what's going through your head at the moment. If you ever want to have a Chat. You know where I am. Anyway, she then texted back the next morning, are you free before 6:00'?

[Tessa]

Clock?

[Ian]

And I was thinking, she's gonna resign. And she came in to the studio at Milbank and we sat down. So I said, so? What do you mean? So? I said, were you resigning? No. What made you think I was gonna resign? I said, well, I couldn't think why on earth you'd. Why on earth you'd want to have a chat. She said, no, I want you to do a reading at my wedding. Which I did tell on the Thursday podcast, you're gonna charge her because you're a friend of mine. I knew you wouldn't have listened. Would you charge a friend for a reading at a wedding?

[Tessa]

I know you, Ian Dale. I know you all too well. She'd cast it through expenses. It would be fine.

[Ian]

I'm. Oh, my God.

[Tessa]

Can we get back to 1977?

[Ian]

I know she doesn't listen.

[Tessa]

Can we just get back to 1970, the history.

[Ian]

Go on, then.

[Tessa]

Everyone complains to me, there's not enough history in the pod.

[Ian]

Everyone does, yeah.

[Tessa]

So other than Waterloo, winning at Eurovision, some more defining characteristics.

[Ian]

Strikes. Coal miners. Yes. Two elections. Other big problem, Jeremy. Jeremy Thorpe.

[Tessa]

That wouldn't be first on the top of my list. Although I thought you were going to say we didn't qualify. England didn't qualify for the World Cup.

[Ian]

No, they didn't.

[Tessa]

Lost the ashes. But also 500 dead in northern Ireland. Sort of mini civil war kicking off in Northern Ireland. Bloody Sunday. Of course, informing all that. Yeah, I know. But then the implications of that had, as we know, right through today, deep roots. So he's got some real problems. Teddy Heath. I was fascinated when I started doing some deep reading about him, just the similarities between Heath, you know, that sort of nasal, learnt voice. We always.

[Ian]

It wasn't nasal.

[Tessa]

We always mimic Thatcher for upscaling the patrician element in her voice or the matriarchal element. When Ted Heath did it before her, the Tories wanted to get a sort of new thinker in, akin to Wilson, or even if they were really ambitions at Kennedy, they don't want any more of these tweedy men from the. The shires. They. If they vote for this Tory boy who's come from a working class Kent background, Father was a carpenter. So many similarities with Starmer. Mother was a lady's maid. Sort of not quite making it. He was this very spoiled prodigy child. Has a Kent accent which suddenly, miraculously, he loses at Oxford.

[Ian]

Bit like Corey lost his northern accent at Cambridge. We were talking about that earlier.

[Tessa]

But what happened to Starmer's accent? Because the problem is, I think Starmer would have almost done better if he'd gone posher because at the moment he just sounds robotic. And I do think the way in which you speak is really important. Edward Heath never really connected with the electorate, did he? Nobody really liked him.

[Ian]

No. And he was a little bit similar to Starmer. You're absolutely right. In character.

[Tessa]

He was a committee man.

[Ian]

Yeah. He wasn't a warm man. He wasn't a leader in the traditional meaning of the word. He had no small talk. He didn't like women at all. If he was sat next to a woman at dinner, he would always talk to the man. The other side of him.

[Tessa]

Him. He's bloody rude.

[Ian]

He was incredibly rude. Although I met him a few times and I have to say he was perfectly charming.

[Tessa]

Oh, I wonder why that is. Gay. 6 foot 5, male back then with hair.

[Ian]

What? What you're suggesting that Ted Heath was gay?

[Tessa]

I didn't like women.

[Ian]

No, no. Well, you, you just were by saying that. But I think he was asexual.

[Tessa]

He may. Well, I've never met anyone who's fully asexual. I've met people who don't know how to take the fantasy and make it more than the vivid print of their imagination, but I don't know anyone who's asexual.

[Ian]

I did a phone. I did a phone in on it once. It actually got a surprising number of calls.

[Tessa]

Well, we know there's incels and all sorts of people who are involuntarily.

[Ian]

Yeah, well, that's different.

[Tessa]

Yeah, but I'm saying that sometimes.

[Ian]

But there are people who just are not interested in sex and I think he was one of them.

[Tessa]

Okay. We probably had a lot on his plate. We know that he was committee meeting his way out of a financial crisis. Our productivity was low. We had this extraordinary international diminishment that people pretend didn't have any impact. Northern Ireland had kicked off and the unions had him buy the Short and Curleys. First big strike in 1972. What I didn't realise in the lead up to all this was that he kind of got in economists and tried to sort of micromanage it and thought he could just sort of like a computer input, just sort of program what he wanted to happen and hit the shift bar and hopefully that would rejig the economy and everything would be okay. But he was absolutely against cutting any deals because he thought that was sort of ungentlemanly. You played to the school rules or you didn't play by any rules at all. And so he was the worst person possible to deal with the miners, to

[Ian]

deal with the unionists, the unions, as opposed to the unions. Yes, I broadly agree with that. I think his major mistake was right early on and this is how personalities are really important here. Ian MacLeod, who was a real first class Tory thinker, he was Chancellor of the Exchequer after the election in 1970 and died within a month. And Anthony Barber took over and then he reflated the economy which led to quite high inflation. And he was an absolute disaster. And instead of continuing with the economic policies that Heath had stood on in 1970, the so called sales demand manifesto, very free market, very Thatcherite, actually, he went back on all of it. And I mean, if we talk about Keir Starmer doing U turns, well, that was the mother of all U turns. And that meant you were absolutely right that the unions felt that they were the ones that held the power.

[Tessa]

And a couple of decisive factors that occur in late 73. But just quickly before we go to them, Barber, he has this kind of idea of a third stage where wages have got to keep up with inflation, which is a disaster when you've got a global economy that's overheating. And then along comes the Yom Kippur War. Boof.

[Ian]

And they had this policy of prices and incomes policy where they tried to dictate to employers how much they could pay their workers. Well, I mean, looking back on that now, it's almost impossible to imagine how a government could implement that. But implement it they tried to, as did Harold Wilson, as did Jim Callahan, and it only stopped in 1979. And I think that was really. Barber set us out on this slippery slope of this sort of almost using the German idea of Mitbestimung, the sort of the cooperation between employers, government and the unions, this sort of tripartite agreement that. Well, I say agreement, I'm not even sure if it was an agreement, but there was this sort of understand, you know, understanding is probably the best way of putting it. And it was a recipe for disaster.

[Tessa]

So we have this high inflationary model. Yom Kippur War sees oil prices surge by 70%. It is automatically an impact of a 20% pay rise across the board in Britain. That's the impact of it. Prices leap up and what you have are the unions going, hang on a minute, you're paying the Arabs 70% more for the oil and you're not going to pay us. And we fought as miners in World War I and World War II.

[Ian]

I'm trying to discern what action you were.

[Tessa]

Well, there was one of the biggest,

[Ian]

a mixture of Northern and Scottish.

[Tessa]

Yeah, well, I wasn't quite sure. There was a big Scottish guy, but

[Ian]

it wasn't Mick McGachie.

[Tessa]

Yeah, but he wasn't the dude that leveled apparently in a meeting with Heath and said, why is it you're paying the Arabs 70% for their oil? And they. Wasn't he loyal to you in World War I and World War II? Arguably, actually they were, by the way, in World War I. But he says, and there we are and we've always to buy and you can he give the equivalent pay rise or not? Equivalent. But they were asking for 35%. The coal board were going to come back with this renegotiated 16% in the middle of which you have the Yom Kippur War. And the result is Heath doesn't know how to respond to this accusation. What he could have said is coal doesn't fire cars up. But he didn't. He just kind of looked tongue tied and then did another reshuffle or another U turn on having an election because he didn't have to go to the polls for another year.

[Ian]

No, but if he had gone to the polls three weeks earlier than he did, he would have probably won. And why didn't he?

[Tessa]

Again, I can't remember the reason why he delayed that decision.

[Ian]

Well, because, I mean the, the miners decided, I think, that they weren't going to play his game, essentially. And so he, he had this sort of who governs Britain? Title of his manifesto, I think. And I think by that point, and I remember this really well in that I was. How old was I then? End of 1973, I would have been 12. No, 11. And you just instinctively knew even at that age that we were in the deep shit and that life was not supposed to be like this. And the power cuts, the three day week, the reduced speed limit on the motorways, so having to have a huge supply of candles in the house because the lights weren't allowed to go on at a particular time. Television stopped at 10:30 and no advertising. No, I mean it really was like living in the Dark Ages. And it's. Unless you were there, it's quite difficult to imagine how it was.

[Tessa]

And internationally we were a laughingstock.

[Ian]

Absolutely.

[Tessa]

What's fascinating is he goes to the polls. The last time he addresses the nation he says to them, do you want a strong government which has clear. Oh, no, sorry, let Me. Do you want. Can you do an Edward Heath voice?

[Ian]

I can do it. Well, sort of an Edward Heath voice. And you always have to think when he laughs, the Mike Yarwood impression of him sort of shaking his shoulders with. With laughter. And he. He. He had quite an imposing voice. It was an impressive voice and it. It wasn't. You described it earlier as nasal. It was the actual opposite of nasal. It was very deep and authoritative.

[Tessa]

Well, it was a learnt voice. Along with his piano and his sailing habits, all quite aristocratic. Although it was the first time I'd ever considered sailing aristocratic. But I suppose you need money to sail. It is a bit swallows and Amazons, but these were all metrics by which he clearly believed he was being judged in a Tory party that he despised. But he said in a big resonant voice, never a nasal one. Ladies and gentlemen, do you want a strong government with clear authority for the future, which will take the decisions that are needed? And he pitches himself against the unions. Like, literally, the opposition in the general election are the unions. It's extraordinary, because the opposition of the Labour Party.

[Ian]

That's absolutely right. And he was never going to win on that basis because people looked at him and they thought, yeah, but you've given in to the unions for the last three years, so why do we think it would be any different in the future? And that, going back to your original premise, was at least part of the reason for the rise of Margaret Thatcher.

[Tessa]

It was. And I think we can also agree that he was served a terrible hand. All sorts of things were kicking off that were outside of his control, Northern Ireland, Yom Kippur, et cetera. But he had absolutely no eq, no emotional intelligence. And I think that's what links him to, I would argue, Theresa May and also to Keir Starmer.

[Ian]

I agree with that.

[Tessa]

Prime ministers that can't read the room,

[Ian]

by the way, anybody that finds themselves in Salisbury do go to Arundel's, which was his house in Salisbury that he lived in for the rest of his life. Absolutely fascinating. Lots of Heath memorabilia there, lots of sailing pictures and sort of. And also memento from the presence he got from world leaders. Chairman Mao, for example, so it's well worth a visit. But no pictures right by the cathedral. No picture. There's actually a picture of Margaret, him with Margaret Thatcher on his grand piano, can you believe? Which I was very surprised to see.

[Tessa]

Me too. I love the fact he was hoisted by his own petard. And Thatcher wins. It's so good. That story. The story of history is always the best.

[Ian]

Right, we have a few questions here. This is Will in Mid Devon. Ian, I know this will be an awkward topic for you, so I don't expect you to comment. Okay? But I listened to Jackie on Sheila's show defending Starmer and dismissing Wes as a loyal for the many listener. I know Jackie's real thoughts on Wes and I thought to myself, the fact that number 10 had no shame in asking someone like Jackie from the Blairite wing of the party to attack another member of that wing shows their ineptness. I make no criticism of Jackie at all. She's doing her job excellently, as ever. We all still love you, Jackie, but she shouldn't have been put in that position. Starmer's only skill in politics, it seems, is making enemies. And right now I can't see how the Labour Party doesn't fall into factional division. Which leads me to my question. With last week's local election showing how divided the Labour voter base is between classic working class Labour and lefty middle class champagne socialist Labour, is the breakup and dismantlement of Labour as one political party inevitable? That is a very good point, I think, and I think this is what has bedeviled the Labour Party for many, many years. I'm not sure when I would date it back to, but this idea that you've got this sort of Islington, as he describes it, champagne socialist middle classes, or I would broaden it out to say London metropolitan middle classes who vote Labour at the expense of the traditional working class Labour vote. Because I don't think that London metropolitan Labour has any understanding at all of the working class vote in the rest of the country.

[Tessa]

It's interesting. It's always posited that way around. I agree with you. Like, I knew we were going to have bread and I realized David Cameron didn't because he wasn't connected to what was happening at the grassroots of society. But it's amazing that it's always levelled. Oh, the sort of urban masses don't understand the rural masses.

[Ian]

No, they don't.

[Tessa]

And likewise the other way around.

[Ian]

But in a way, why should they?

[Tessa]

Well, why should either side understand the other?

[Ian]

But the fact is that you've got to a point now where you, the Labour MP that I was on Newsnight with last Monday, Jonathan Hinder, who I got a bit exasperated with because he was all slagging off Starmer saying he needed to go. And when Victoria Derbyshire asked him, well, who would you replace him with? He went all coy and said, oh no, I want to Hear what they've all got to say. And I said to him, I'm sorry, that really doesn't cut it. And then he was on the Today program this morning, I believe, slagging off West Streeting and Anti Burnham because of what they're saying on Brexit. And that would have gone down like a cup of cold six with Metropolitan Labour MPs who will, like you, think that Wares has done a brilliant thing here.

[Tessa]

Exactly. Look at. I'm a classic example where I was furious actually with this whole mess. The status, the fact we don't get change. I just know in my own small campaigning way, all the effort to try and get through to a minister which loads of people are doing, whether it's on building or transport, in my case education. Finally you reach the minister in question, but you don't know whether the whole thing going to topple down tomorrow. There's a massive irony that we're calling for change, therefore we want rid of Starmer when we know that there will be no change because there's this leadership turmoil for the next three months and history tells us that nothing gets done when a party is headless and in crisis. But I find myself so keen to own the mistake we made over Brexit. I will take three months of status if it means that we get a leader who's pro reentering Europe.

[Ian]

Just on Will's point about Jackie, that is part of the job. You have to go and bat on a sticky wicket and she's very good at that, at sort of effectively defending the indefensible.

[Tessa]

She's always being sent out. Yeah, the attack dog.

[Ian]

Well, it's not attack dog, it's the defense dog or the defense bitch. Should we say?

[Tessa]

No, we don't say that at where Politics makes history on the Instagram. Help. Hurry back, Dr. Tessa. Listening to Ian and Natasha discussing Angela Rayner as contender for pm and I'm finding myself agreeing with Ian, which I must say is very rare. But I do agree Angela's a bit of a risk, but I think that's an issue with Labour. They need to take that risk. Labour are losing more votes to the left than Reform. Reform are picking up the usual non voters. I think Angela is exactly what Labour need.

[Ian]

I think it's going to be really interesting to see what Angela Rayner does because she. People around her are saying, well, it's not definite that she'll stand. I think it's absolute dead cert she will stand. Even if Andy Burnham stands, I think she'll Stand. And she is quite popular among the Labour grassroots. I think she's much cleverer than people give her credit for. It's because she's got this sort of working class northern accent that people have a go at her. I mean, John, my partner said, tell me she's not going to be our Prime Minister. He said, she's as common as muck.

[Tessa]

That's terrible.

[Ian]

And I'm thinking, mate, you are from a working class background yourself. You may not speak like a working class person, but I mean that's, but that it's also, it's like just as women can be the barrier to more women in politics, working class people can be the barrier to working class people at the top of politics.

[Tessa]

That's why we're so susceptible to the likes of Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson and I would even put Gove into that category because he speaks with this very polished Scottish burr. The idea of the educated, classy man running and governing us, that again, it also speaks to the authority gap is I think a historic problem that we've long lumbered under. This is a message from Andrew out where politics meets history. Hi Tessa and Ian, long, long time listener here with a question for the pod. I'm 29 and ever since I've been able to vote we've had consecutive Conservative governments. Until now, as someone with more left leaning values, politics always felt like my values were not represented by our government. Do you feel that the current Labour government realizes that for people like me they are what we have been waiting for since we have become politically literate as teenagers? I'm worried that right leaning parties always get the benefit of the doubt and other norm and left leaning parties have a higher in the standards of the public. Will this end up with another 14 years of politicians? I don't feel represented by.

[Ian]

Well it doesn't feel like that being on the right. I don't think the right wing governments get the benefit of the doubt.

[Tessa]

We've certainly had more conservative governments over the last century.

[Ian]

That doesn't mean to say they get the benefit of the doubt.

[Tessa]

I think we hold them to a less high bar. While I was experiencing my malady and I think before then actually, but it was overtaken by the, the local elections, etc. Farage was exposed for the rogue that he is. You know the money that he was given that you gainfully believe gift was for his security. Actually we now all know that he just considered it a big fat thank you gift for gifting the nation Brexit. There are questions that are asked of certain politicians that aren't levied at others. And it's partly because of bias. He's press.

[Ian]

Absolute bollocks. He's now being hauled up before the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. So how does that mean that he's been given the benefit of the doubt finally?

[Tessa]

Well, you gave him the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I did last week. I rest my case.

[Ian]

And then because you weren't here on Thursday, you might have heard this because you didn't listen to the podcast. But it turns out that last September, Nigel Farage gave an interview to Nick Ferrari where he basically promoted Christopher Harborne's cryptocurrency company.

[Tessa]

And that surprises you?

[Ian]

Well, it rather does surprise me, if I'm honest. Yes.

[Tessa]

The things I know about Farage and his son that I'm not able to share on air. I mean, nothing surprises me.

[Ian]

You haven't shared that with me off air either.

[Tessa]

I have shared it with you off air, yes, but I wasn't allowed to talk about it. Now we mustn't go over an hour because only old people listen to podcasts that are over.

[Ian]

Why is it okay for you to be ageist?

[Tessa]

Also, it's very important.

[Ian]

I'm not allowed to comment on Eurovision appearances.

[Tessa]

We have to hold on to my little brother and he's a very busy man.

[Ian]

Well, he won't be listening anymore now he's a. If he is listening, he shouldn't be

[Tessa]

a public sector employee.

[Ian]

Are you.

[Tessa]

It's a politician. A public servant, no less. Yeah, he won't have time to listen.

[Ian]

George has sent one in. In fact, he sent this in two Sundays ago, so it's a bit out of date. But anyway, long time listener. In fact, from the beginning of. For the many eight years ago that was, you know. Eight years, 626 episodes.

[Tessa]

Crack on.

[Ian]

Anyway, my question is, why have none of the cabinet moved against Starmer? Well, of course, whereas has now. Now he says I'm a Conservative voter. However, in my opinion, Wes would be the best PM out of the runners and riders as he's able to cut through to ordinary people. I'm talking. I'm failing to understand how Starmer looks at these results and concludes we must get closer to the eu. I realize this question may be out today by the time you record. Well, it is a little bit. But I think you do make a good point there because our Labour Party members going to vote for who they think will make the best Prime Minister or who is the most left wing or who will make the best Labour Party leader And I hope they vote for who will be the best Prime Minister like the conservatives didn't in 2022.

[Tessa]

I hope they vote for the person who can win them back. Green votes, Conservative votes and Liberal Democrat votes. And as far as I'm concerned, there's only one person who can do that. That. And it's Wes Streeting. What are you going to do? As soon as you come off air,

[Ian]

I'm going to vote for you.

[Tessa]

Yeah, you are going to vote for me. Do you want to explain why?

[Ian]

Because your book, lest we forget, has been nominated for Military Book of the Year.

[Tessa]

Military History Book of the Year. I'm going to take the liberty of putting the link on our Where Politics Meets History Instagram account.

[Ian]

Well, I think you should also get Corey to put it on the. On the episode note.

[Tessa]

Oh yes, the show link. That's a really good idea. And rather than leaving a hate fueled comment, you can vote.

[Ian]

But do you, do you realize that you're doing exactly what you accused Israel of doing in the Eurovision Song Contest?

[Tessa]

Yes, I'm lobbying for votes, but I'm

[Ian]

not a public sector, you evil Zionist, you.

[Tessa]

I'm not representing the Israeli state. I'm simply exploiting my tiny platform.

[Ian]

Well, I shall be voting for you momentarily.

[Tessa]

And I'm off now to polish off an article in which I'm going to, to celebrate my little brother's great success north of the border.

[Ian]

And I'm going to reflect on a lovely evening on Friday in West Cliff on sea, next to Southend. Have you ever been to Southend? No, it's actually the coastline there is. I mean, you drive along it and you think, how can this be a Labour constituency? I mean it's, it's really quite well to do. And we went to this.

[Tessa]

What are you saying?

[Ian]

What?

[Tessa]

That Labour constituencies always run down?

[Ian]

Generally they are, yeah.

[Tessa]

You're fucking awful, Ian.

[Ian]

Well, they're generally full of not particularly nice houses, but these are like. I mean you just look at these houses and you think, Labour. Really?

[Tessa]

I live in a Labour constituency.

[Ian]

I know you do, yes. I've been in your house.

[Tessa]

You know, just cause, you know, I'm so over being surrounded by white, tall, entitled men who earn way more than me and cast aspersions on my more humble way of life.

[Ian]

You know perfectly well I loved your house.

[Tessa]

Right, can we end the pod?

[Ian]

I don't want to hear apart from your bedroom.

[Tessa]

Yeah, you did come.

[Ian]

No, this event, I was speaking to Southend east and Rochford Conservatives, being interviewed by Anna Firth, a former MP in Southend west and it was in a casino, right? And you sort of had to go downstairs and it was like what I imagine a strip, a strip bar to look like. It was quite an evening. And I sold £500 worth of books.

[Tessa]

Oh, no, that's the punchline, Corey.

[Ian]

Exactly.

[Tessa]

That's the punchline.

[Ian]

Anyway, do send an email question if you'd like to to where politics meets historylobal.com or leave a question on the Instagram feed of the same name.

[Tessa]

Goodbye.

[Ian]

Goodbye.

[Tessa]

This has been a global player Original

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