128. Murrell of the Story

Summary

Podcast Summary – Where Politics Meets History

Episode 128: Murrell of the Story
Hosts: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop
Date: May 26, 2026

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Overview

In this lively episode, broadcaster Iain Dale and historian Dr. Tessa Dunlop analyze major current events through a historical lens, with sharp wit and unfiltered debate. The main focus is the embezzlement scandal involving Peter Murrell, ex-SNP Chief Executive, and its political fallout. They also cover the historic prevalence of political scandals in Britain, media complicity, and broader public trust issues in politics, peppered with lighter personal anecdotes and tangents about national identity, food, and football.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Weather, History & D-Day Parallels

• The episode opens with a discussion of unusual UK weather, leading Iain to reference the historic balmy weather in early June 1944, just before D-Day's postponement due to bad conditions.
  • Quote:
    "Just before, literally the week before D Day, we had balmy weather. And then...the weather got really bad and they had to delay D Day."
    — Iain Dale, 01:52

2. Cross-Channel Travel and Brexit Logistics

• Iain describes the post-Brexit changes to EU-UK border crossings, including new fingerprinting requirements. Tessa relates frustrations at Romanian border controls.
• Tessa expresses disappointment at the British government's framing and exclusion of foreigners, particularly regarding Romanian-British relations.

3. Wealth, Social Mobility, and Historic Privilege

• Tessa wants to highlight the concept of “financial DNA”—how social capital and family heritage affect prosperity, beyond mere inherited wealth.
  • Quote:
    "If you come from a rich family and there's 10 of you, so it's divided into 10...you're still more likely to financially outperform those lower down the pecking order." — Tessa Dunlop, 04:09

4. Scottish Political Scandal: The Peter Murrell Case

[Major Segment Start – 16:27]

• Central theme: Peter Murrell, former SNP chief executive, pleads guilty to embezzlement.

• Discussion of political timing and alleged manipulation:

  • Did Scottish authorities delay the case to benefit SNP's election prospects?
  • Would the results have differed had the case come to trial earlier?
  • Comparison to cronyism warnings raised historically within the SNP, particularly over Murrell (married to Nicola Sturgeon) running the party while Sturgeon led the government.

• Tessa criticizes John Swinney (current First Minister) for close ties to Murrell and lack of accountability.

• Iain expresses belief that Nicola Sturgeon was likely unaware of the wrongdoing, but agrees transparency and judgement were lacking.

  • Quote:
    "The lack of curiosity stinks, Ian. I don't know where you come from...but a £124,000 motorhome parked outside his mother's house...You’re telling me Nicola Sturgeon never wondered where all the excess cash came from?"
    — Tessa Dunlop, 19:43

  • Quote:
    "I don't believe that she is a crooked person. I think she was genuinely shocked at what's happened. It's completely upended her life. And I do have a degree of sympathy with her."
    — Iain Dale, 22:44

• Broader issue: Why did the scandal have limited electoral impact? Media complicity and muted opposition campaigns cited as contributing factors.

  • Quote:
    "A total failure on the part of the Scottish media, because I think the Scottish media is generally...in cahoots with the SNP."
    — Iain Dale, 27:04

5. Scottish versus Westminster Approaches to Political Scandal

[Historical Context & Parallels – 29:09 & 32:23]

• Tessa contrasts SNP's electoral resilience after Murrell’s scandal with the fallouts of Westminster scandals (e.g., MPs’ expenses, cash-for-questions).

• Explicit comparison to Labour’s defeat after the 2009 expenses scandal and the “sleaze” of Major’s Conservative government.

  • Ministers, Speaker of the House, and five MPs had to resign or were jailed after the expenses scandal (35:39).
  • Tessa points to North-South divides in press coverage and the immunities conferred by grievance-focused politics in Scotland.

• Iain argues: While corruption exists, UK political culture has generally not been deeply corrupt compared to elsewhere, but trust has been eroded by high-profile misbehavior and systems that enabled it.

6. Personalities, Accents, and Politics

[Accent and Political Identity – 40:05]

• Debates over how politicians present themselves; the use/adaptation of accent to foster relatability and authenticity—illustrated with anecdotes about Tessa’s own Scottish roots and her brother’s political identity.
• Iain: "People can spot a fraud a mile off. If you try and pretend that you’re something you’re not, voters can spot that." — (39:39)

7. Historic Embezzlement and Sleaze

[Political Embezzlement Through History – 42:00]

• References to:
  • Maundy Gregory (selling honours for Lloyd George)
  • Major era “cash for questions”
  • Tim Smith, Neil Hamilton, Jonathan Aitken
• Tessa contends repeated scandals contributed to public cynicism and rise of conspiracy theories, especially as living standards stagnated.

8. UK Universities and International Students

[Migration, Students & Universities – 55:07]

• Tessa and Iain agree the inclusion of international students in immigration statistics is economically harmful.

  • Tessa: "We’ve seen a massive shortfall in international applications...in financial terms a fifth of our university’s income overnight squandered because we are playing to the politics of grievance and trying to, I think, irresponsibly bring down migration numbers in all the wrong ways." — (55:07)

  • Iain notes numbers have recently fallen from a peak but remain historically high; post-Brexit, students from India, China, Nigeria have replaced many EU students.
    (58:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Testicle Cake Tangent:

  • "Sweet bread means testicles, don’t you?" — Iain, (09:03)
  • "Having never chowed down on a testicle, I can’t confirm." — Tessa, (09:08)
  • Leads to a viral Romanian social media moment.

• Cultural Appropriation with Food:

  • "A toasted cozanak is just the kind of hybrid equivalent that’s come with this massive influx of Romanians to Britain, isn’t it?" — Tessa, (10:13)

• Empathy for Nicola Sturgeon:

  • "I think there is a sadness about Nicola Sturgeon. I think this comes of a failed marriage, a child she was longed for and didn’t have, a political career that consumed her, and now she's the other side of it." — Tessa, (31:40)

• Football as Tribalism:

  • "Football is a bit like politics. It is tribal and I belong to the West Ham tribe..." — Iain, (07:39)

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Important Timestamps

• 16:27 – Deep dive on the Peter Murrell/SNP embezzlement scandal begins
• 19:43 – Tessa questions Nicola Sturgeon’s unawareness of Murrell’s embezzlement
• 27:04 – Media complicity in lack of SNP accountability discussed
• 32:23 – Comparison to Westminster scandals (expenses, “cash for questions,” etc.)
• 55:07 – Debate on the impact of international student migration policy

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Listener Q&A Highlights

• Labour Leadership Prospects (48:45)
  • Iain: Favors Wes Streeting as a potential PM, cites clarity and capability.
• Migration and Post-Brexit Realities (52:19, 55:07)
  • Listener questions myths about migration being new and the economic role of international students.
  • Iain and Tessa both challenge government policies that include foreign students in migration caps and statistics.

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Style & Tone

• The conversation is fast-paced, witty, and frequently irreverent.
• There’s playful teasing, especially about food, body image, and football.
• The hosts' differing perspectives create stimulating friction—a friendly row, rather than heated dispute.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive dissection of the SNP’s recent embezzlement scandal, Scottish political culture, and historic British political “sleaze,” all enriched by historical context and the hosts’ vivid personalities. Though sometimes meandering into tales of Romanian cakes and personal reminiscences, the episode remains a sharp, engaging look at how recurring patterns of political behaviour shape public trust—and how history, once again, rhymes with the headlines of the day.

Transcript

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[Tessa Dunlop]

This is a global player Original podcast. Rishi Sunak particularly hammered the way in which foreign students are framed, costed and whether they can bring in other members of their family when they come to study. And the result has been not just a drop in numbers by a tenth, but that is, in financial terms, a fifth of our university's income overnight squandered. It's ridiculous. Good afternoon.

[Ian Dale]

Good afternoon. On this sultry bank holiday afternoon, I imagine it's rather hotter here than it is there because Tessa is in Romania.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Apparently we've got climate whiplash because I'm sitting here in the east of Europe, which is normally much hotter at this time of year, and yet you're baking in England and it's pleasantly balmy in northern Romania.

[Ian Dale]

34 degrees it is. And do you know the last time it was over 30 degrees on a Maybank holiday? Guess the year.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I know that this is a record, isn't it, this May, but there have been other May records in the last 10 years. But the way you're framing that, those records weren't conveniently broken over the holiday period. So I'm going to say 2008, 1944. No.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. So just after, well, just before, literally the week before D Day, we had balmy weather. And then, of course, it all. I'm just introducing a note of history into the podcast. And then of course, the weather got really bad and they had to delay D Day because it was originally planned for June 5 and they delayed it till June 6. And even then, Eisenhower was not convinced that it really was the right time. But I think they would have had to wait it another 10 days if they hadn't done it on June 6th.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's right. Winston Churchill got up in the middle of the night and acknowledged the sort of moon was reflecting in the waters of the Channel. And I think it was considered therefore calm enough, perfect for channel crossings. More this weekend, by all accounts as well, going in the other direction.

[Ian Dale]

Yes. And the French have lifted their new rules, or the new EU rules, because there were such queues at Dover that they've decided to take pity on the poor British tourists and lift the checks for the weekend.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's very kind of them. It's interesting because we were planning to get a ferry due to the jet fuel prices to France this summer and the friend I was planning on going with said, we can't possibly go. Have you seen the queues this weekend? So that idea of Armageddon probably is infectious. And the French have worked out which side their bread is buttered on.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I don't think it's normally like that. I mean, there is this new system where. And I'm going to probably see it when I go to Dublin in August, where the first time that you go to the EU after they've introduced this, you have to have your fingerprints taken and everything. But once you've done it once, you don't have to do it again. So it should get better as time goes on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I won't introduce exit notes so early on in the podcast, but I've got

[Ian Dale]

to say you just did.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but I was drawn across the coals when I entered Romania just a couple of nights ago. Left standing for hours. Oh, that's just my mother in law peeping in the corner of the screen.

[Ian Dale]

Hello, mother.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She can't hear you. I've got my headphones on deliberately, earmarks or whatever they're called, so. The note of history, by the way, I'd just like to flag this up to listeners that every morning I send through my tome in which I annotate what I would like to talk about. And there's always a historical aspect and every time it's not overruled by Ian, but in he muscles a little later than me because he generally starts his day somewhat later with the contemporary political agenda, which is sort of like waking up to a cold shower and Ian Douche. So there was I. I wanted to look at the first fascinated in the historicity of wealth where it's not just about the hard pounds and pence you inherit that leads you to having a richer or more privileged life. It's actually a sort of financial DN I. E. If you come from a rich family and there's 10 of you, so it's divided into 10 and you don't actually get that much cash, you're still more likely to financially outperform those lower down the pecking order socially who inherit more pounds and pence. I thought this was fascinating and it goes back centuries, but Ian wanted to talk about the exchange of pounds and pence in a more contemporary setting north of the border in Britain, don't you, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. I'm not saying we can't talk about what you wanted to talk about, but I think it would be a little odd for a podcast which is called Where Politics Meets History, not to cover the big breaking news of the day. And I must admit. Well, we'll talk about it in a minute. But it's the Peter Morrill pleading guilty to embezzlement. I'd completely lost track of the fact that this was happening today because clearly there's no bank holiday in Scotland. I suppose Scotland gets so many other ones that we don't. So I suppose it's only natural because Scotland has one in August as well as a second one for New Year, don't they, Stone?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's bloody inconvenient. I spend my whole life triangulating the fact that my children's school holidays fit into neither the Scottish holiday agenda nor the Romanian one. So I've always got two children who can't play with their cousins, which is kind of important family bonding, I think, unless I take them out of school and then incur the wrath, if you would, of your local council and possibly the fines that are thus incurred.

[Ian Dale]

Yes. I must admit I've always been a little bit ambivalent about that. The finding parents for the children going on holiday in term time. I don't see the problem. I mean, maybe it should be restricted to maybe one or possibly even two weeks, but I don't like the strong arm of the state intervening on that sort of thing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have to say, just quickly, because we are going to do a deep dive into Morel. And actually, I thought we don't have to go back that far back in history to find not an equivalent scandal. But I think we could look at the way in which finances are embezzled and the impact it has on TR with the electorate. And what's fascinating about this case and the way it was, I would argue, kind of hidden, is that it hasn't had that great an impact. Look who's the first minister in Scotland. And I think Jackie Bailey, the Labour deputy, was quite right to ask today how come this has just popped up after the Holyrood elections and not before?

[Ian Dale]

Well, before we go too deeply into that, I mean, we are going to talk about that after the break, but I know you wanted to express your deep condolences to me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's right. I don't often read Ian's newsletter, but perhaps because I'm on the other side of the continent, I was Feeling a certain longing. Ian, the idea to not be in your physical presence, which is so, well, all consuming, what with the height and the space that you occupy. I missed you. And I.

[Ian Dale]

You're nearly as tall as me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Tapped onto your newsletter. I was triggered twice, once because it started with football. Then I remembered Ian's a football fan. Actually, you do very well not to inflict your football mania onto me too often, but I did see that you've incurred something of a. Of a personal blow over the last few days.

[Ian Dale]

Well, my team, West Ham, were relegated yesterday. I mean, it wasn't a surprise, so I'd sort of almost reconciled myself to it. But if you're not into football, I don't. I mean, football is a bit like politics. It is tribal and I belong to the West Ham tribe and obviously they've experienced this failure and they're now going to go into the championship, which is the second division, or used to be called the second division, and we haven't been there for 14 years, so it's going to be a huge financial blow. We're going to have to sell all our best players and. Yeah, so I spent half of the afternoon, you'll think this is the typical me writing a very long article for my West Ham blog, West hamtilidie.com should you wish to have a look at it, in which I go through the entire West Ham squad and give my verdict on whether they should be sold or whether we should retain them. It's called stick or twist, that is. I know you'll be an avid reader.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Time well spent. You having an impact in a very different form elsewhere over the weekend. Because for those avid listeners who find us on the social medias, Ian sampled some Romanian cake, the bread of love, as I termed it, and I placed that little film on social medias and it got over quarter of a million views. Ian Dale eating Romanian sweet bread today. So great was your reach, by the way.

[Ian Dale]

By the way, before you go on, you do know that sweet bread means testicles, don't you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I didn't know that. But having never chowed down on a testicle, I can't confirm.

[Ian Dale]

I think thou dost Protesteth too much, Ms. Mrs. Dan, whatever his surname is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've never entered the center of the walnut when it comes to testicle sampling. Anyway, I was in, believe it or not, I have the Northern City. Well, could you compare Cozanak with testicles?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think it depends whether they're hairy or smooth.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, back to Kozanak. I'm out. And about in a city kind of comparable with Edinburgh today. And somebody bounded up to me and said in Romanian, you are the woman who ate kozanak with that bald.

[Ian Dale]

I bet she didn't say that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She said fat as well.

[Ian Dale]

No, she didn't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She didn't, because it's less offensive in Romanian grass.

[Ian Dale]

Did she really?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, it's like a little chubby Chubs.

[Ian Dale]

No, come on, tell me the truth. Tell me exactly what she said. You've exaggerated, haven't you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I curated it gently. She basically. But the main issue wasn't your frame or shape. It was actually the fact that, first of all, we cut it the wrong way then. And by the way, the Internet nearly melted on this, that we spread butter on it. How could we do that? And the idea both of us suggested, we toasted it. And it reminded me of, like, cultural appropriation. But I think once a food of any sort leaves the shores or the borders within which it's been curated and invented, it then takes on a life of its own. Because if you think of chicken tikka masala or chicken korma, these are not curries that you eat in India, they're curries you eat in Britain. And so a toasted cozinac is just the kind of hybrid equivalent that's come with this massive influx of Romanians to Britain, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Well, they should take it as a compliment, surely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Look at Ian. And he looks like a man who likes to butter his sweet breast,

[Ian Dale]

you see, when we switched. We should explain that, because you're in Romania and I'm at home because I'm not working today. We're using Riverside to record this and we can both see each other. And being the vain, egotistical, narcissistic person that I am, as soon as I switched on the camera, I thought to myself, oh, you're looking quite good today. I thought sort of like. Sort of quite that the fatness in the face is sort of, well, not gone, but maybe disappearing. And now you've completely ruined it. You've just sort of made me think that I'm really fat again.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Actually, you looked pretty good in that video, that's the truth. But remember, Romanians are very different. They look that. You looked very English in that video relative to an older Romanian man who'd be smaller and wizen, like a nut. You know, you're. You're a more fulsome Western.

[Ian Dale]

Do you watch Gogglebox occasionally?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I do watch Gogglebox.

[Ian Dale]

Do you know the gay couple, one of whom is quite old and the Other one much younger. Well, I was reading a piece at the weekend, I can't remember where it was now, where somebody was interviewing them. And I was slightly. Well, I don't know whether I. I was going to say appalled, but actually quite gratified to find out that the older guy, who I thought was in his probably early 70s, is actually exactly the same age as me, but I think looks much older. Don't you, Tessa?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, much older. And yes, I think the problem is I said that. They called me over and said, hey, that English ball guy, you were the one that bullied me into firing a dis from this side of Europe to your side of Europe. It was said with great affection. The truth is that Romanians have been deeply flattered that we ate sweet bread in our podcast or before our podcast. And there's something a touching about that. B also a bit humbling on some level, that it takes so little to please Romanians. And it reminds me of how actually historically badly we've treated them. We denigrate them. It's a bit like I'm always reminded when I read about the history, history and the way in which we talk about East Europeans of the Oval Office drubbing that Zelenskyy was given. The idea that the equivalent would have been done in quite the same way towards a leader from a Western country, I don't think is the case. And if you flip that on its head, it means that they are grateful for any kind of attention. And I feel there's something wrong there, almost. It feels like a terrible political imbalance.

[Ian Dale]

Well, imbalance, obviously, that. That White House incident with Zelensky was absolutely appalling. I think Trump has done that to quite a few. Well, not quite as extreme as that, but he has done that to other leaders.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not in the same way, but I do.

[Ian Dale]

I do think you. You do sometimes try to find ways of sort of criticizing the. The west for. I mean, let's face it, how many. How many Romanians have come to this country since 2003? It's quite a lot. I mean, if we were so horrible to Romanians, we wouldn't have been letting so many in, would we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think it was more about economics

[Ian Dale]

and also, more to the point, they wouldn't have wanted to come if we were all going to be horrible to them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know. I think actually, to an extent, the word Romanian became a sort of a sloppy expression for a certain type of migrant that wasn't welcome in the middle of the Brexit debate. But I Take your point that I might be reading too much into it, that what is a superficial compliment? A viral video video of me and an English bloke eating cake. If you imagine it happening the other way around, it wouldn't. But that's also about cultural heritage and the cultural capital that Britain enjoys.

[Ian Dale]

I think maybe we should make this Just as nun jokes used to be a regular feature on for the Many maybe we should make Ian sampling Romanian food a regular feature on this podcast and then you can go viral again. I don't want any sort of horrible soup things, though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've got to say that Mangyro is not killed Ian's appetite. Lucy has absolutely no clue, like a man over 60, how to collaborate on an Instagram video. But once they start getting an uptick of a certain number of views, plus that on Facebook, I send a message to Ian and I go, collaborate on this video and we'll get more Romanian free food. Sure enough, there was an instant collaboration.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I do. I do collaborate on all the videos. You don't seem to realize it, though. Anyway, I think we should get into the meat of the podcast, so let's go to a little break.

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[Ian Dale]

As you alluded to earlier, it is it will feed all the conspiracy theories that the whole establishment in Scotland is basically sucking up to the snp and that the reason that Peter Murrell's court case was postponed until 25 May was because it couldn't then interfere with a Scottish Parliament election. And the interesting thing to speculate on, I think, is, well, say the court case had happened on April 25, not May 25. Would it have had any material difference on the scale of the SNP victory on 7 May? I think it would have had a little bit of an effect, but I don't think it would have had a real effect on the actual result. I think the SNP would still have wonderful. And they would still be forming a government. They might be a few seats lighter, though. What do you think?

[Tessa Dunlop]

So the current First Minister is John Swinney and he is very Much framing him and his party as victims of this embezzlement case. The former Chief executive, the man who ran the snp. Well, they are, except John Swinney. He wasn't part of the government machine. Okay, when Peter Morrell was running the party, from what I gathered. But he did appoint him because I dug into this. Swinney's an old friend of Morrell, and yes, he appointed him chief Executive during his first spell as SMP leader in the early noughties. So tell me, who's the victim here?

[Ian Dale]

No, early 2000s.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Early. Early 90s. So the wisdom of that move is now going to be questioned and it's.

[Ian Dale]

Sorry, I thought you said early 90s. No, I understand.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So the wisdom of that appointment will be questioned and it just plays out like rank double standards when the appointment, for example, of Peter Mandelson, Vikir Dahmer, literally has staked a hole through the British government, when at the same time we have John Swinney neatly sidestepping this case, washing his hands of it, pretending he had nothing to do with it, when both his personal and professional decision making are called into question, not only about the date of this case, conveniently, what, 10 days, no, three weeks after the local election, but more deeply about the original appointment of Peter Morrill and moreover, Alex Salmon. Neither lay. Alex Salmon and several other members of the SNP cautioned that the individual running the snp, being married to the individual who was First Minister of Scotland, leader of the party and running the government, stank of cronyism and effectively meant that transparency was the nun. Swinney was not one of those voices.

[Ian Dale]

Now, if you were Rory Stewart at this point, you would have said, over to you, Alistair. Now, okay, as. As also Rory Stewart would say, let, Let me unpick that, because there's a lot there and a lot of it I agree with. I. I think the particular bit that I agree with is Nicola Sturgeon's role here, because I don't for one minute believe that Nicola Sturgeon knew what her husband was doing or can be implicated in it. And clearly the Scottish police thought, you're shaking your head here, but the Scottish police thought the same. Why are you shaking your head?

[Tessa Dunlop]

The lack of curiosity stinks, Ian. I don't know where you come from or what your personal wealth is like, but a 120, a lot less than

[Ian Dale]

you think it is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

A1. Well, I repeat this then. A 124,000 pound motorhome, a Winnebago, parked outside his mother's house in Fife, that Value is greater than most of the houses in Fife. And by the way, the money that he was spending, he wasn't hiding it away in some offshore trust fund for his nefarious future. He was spending it on retail goods from cosmetics. Who was wearing those cosmetics? The last time I checked, dear Peter doesn't look like he benefits from foundation. Mont Blanc pens, computer games. So stuff that is coming into their home in Scotland. And you're telling me Nicola Sturgeon never wondered where all the excess cash came from that paid for this?

[Ian Dale]

Well, you say excess cash, his salary was well into low six figures. I think so. I'm. I'm not sure. I mean, bear in mind, and this apparently didn't occur in the early years, I think it's mainly sort of since 2014, since she was first minister. Now, the first point there is, what on earth was he thinking of? Because he must have known that if this all came out, that would be the end of her political career. Now, there are still people who suspect that she resigned in. When was it? 2020. I can't even remember the year now, is it 2023? That the timing of that was because she knew that something was up. I'm not sure she. The accusation is she knew exactly that he was going to be arrested or anything, but she knew. The accusation is she knew something was up. You want to interrupt again?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just very suspicious that the police moved on this case seven weeks after she announced her resignation.

[Ian Dale]

And if you want to be a conspiracy theorist, which I'm not accusing you of, but there are plenty of people out there who will put two and two together and make four. If you want to believe all the conspiracies, you will think the police must have been in on it. She must have known that they were about to come knocking at the door. And you will think that the court case was scheduled to be convenient for the snp. I mean, that is the way that people think nowadays. It's generally more usually cock up rather than conspiracy, but you're never going to convince people of the opposite of that. But I go back to the point. What on earth was he thinking? Now? I think if you're First Minister of Scotland, you probably don't notice a lot of things going on at home. I know when I. Okay, I'm nothing too like First Minister or anything, but I know if I'm in busy times, I don't sort of take much notice of my household finances, and I doubt whether she would have done either. And I don't know Nicola Sturgeon well, but I know her, I think, well enough to be able to make judgments about her. And I don't believe that she is a crooked person. I don't believe. I think she was genuinely shocked at what's happened. It's completely upended her life. And I do have a degree of sympathy with her. And you can say, well, she should have been more careful, she should have noticed. And I think she possibly hasn't done herself any favors by some of the public comments she's made about it since it happened.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I would like to remind you just of the, of the dates and also the way in which not only did she fail to recognize or question the goods that were coming into her house, but she batted away in a sort of Royal family style, any questions around the SNP's financial health. And I'm going to quote her, there are no reasons for people to be concerned about the party's finances. She told a meeting of the SNP's ruling body in March 2021 when members of the party were suggesting otherwise. Ian?

[Ian Dale]

Well, and I suspect that's exactly what she believed. Now, she was wrong on that. Absolutely. And she should be held accountable for making false statements. I totally agree with you. I think it's been very difficult for her to make any definitive statement since the arrest because it could have been seen to prejudice any trial. Now, he, in the end, he's now pleaded guilty, so there isn't going to be a trial.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We know why he's pleaded guilty. Can I point of information? So he's pleaded guilty, so there's not this ongoing court case that will further upend the ruling party in Scotland, the snp. It's a bit like Andrew paying off Virginia du Ferret.

[Ian Dale]

Well, he hasn't said that. You're assuming that that's the reason. I'm not sure that's the case at all. I suspect it's more likely that he realized he would have been found guilty. And by pleading guilty, you knock a third off your sentence. And he will be given a long sentence and the judge in this trial will make him an exemplary case to warn others. And quite right, too, in a way. I do believe in equal justice rule, but there are some cases when you do have to a judge, I think make clear that up with this the country will not put so. I completely understand everyone's inclination to think the worst of her, but in the end, it's him. Now, you say she should have noticed all of these luxurious things coming into their house. Is it unusual for a man to buy his wife Expensive perfume. He had a. He had a Jaguar, I pace, I think, as his car. Now, I know enough about cars to know that that is certainly not the most expensive car you can buy in the world. I mean, you hear the word Jaguar and you automatically think it's a really luxurious car. It isn't, particularly. So I'm not. I'm not sure that it's right to just assume that she knew more than she's ever let on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay. More broadly, because clearly you've had a love in with Nicola, you had one of your cozy LVCs.

[Ian Dale]

No, you see, again, that's very insulting. As I said before, I don't know her well. I've met her on four or five occasions. I've interviewed her for a total of probably three or four hours. And that does mean that you, you can. And particularly the kind of interviews I've done with her, I have sort of gone searched inside her soul, if that doesn't sound a bit weird. And I like to think that I can tell when someone's trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, I'm not going to convince you on Nicola, and nor do I particularly want to, because actually she's ancient history now. But the man in charge of the SNP Party, not only a close friend of Morrell, but a close friend of Nicola Sturgeon throughout her ruling years, who never pushed for more separation of powers between Murrell and his wife when it came to both running the party and running the country. And I would also go back to flagging up the way in which this. It just wasn't talked about in the run up to the Holyrood elections. Arguably my wee brother should be part of a ruling coalition right now with the Labour Party, because actually, if this had been front and center, the way in which Starmer's muck with Mandelson has been in the Westminster case and across all the British predominantly right wing press, we would have seen far more accountability at the heart of Scottish government.

[Ian Dale]

But that is a consequence of two things. One, a total failure on the part of the Scottish media, because I think the Scottish media is generally not holy, but generally in cahoots with the snp.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's in crisis. I would say. It's in crisis.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. I don't disagree with that. But secondly, it is a failure of all the opposition parties to make it an issue. Now, having said that, you have to think, well, how could they have made it an issue when it's going to court? You can't do. You can't say or do things which could be prejudicial to a trial. So they did have their hands tied a little bit. So from that point of view, I'll have some sympathy with them. But I think on the. On the general basis, you're right. Can I just apologize for the dog noises that we've had in the background because John's gone out typically just when I'm doing a podcast. So the dogs are sort of anxious that he's not coming back and are constantly making noises. Aren't you, Woody? Dude's being very good. Good, though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Behind you, Ian, there's a lot of paraphernalia. What are all those mugs and books?

[Ian Dale]

Things that are they, Merchant?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that merch?

[Ian Dale]

It's merch. All the books are ones that I've edited and written and I sold through my politicos.co.uk website.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And do you post them yourself, by the way? Who posts the books?

[Ian Dale]

I do, actually. I. I pack them and. Well, I pack them and put them in a large bag by the front door and then John takes them to the every. Every shop down.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That means you cut out the middleman.

[Ian Dale]

I can't because I can't drive.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You cut out the middleman and you take the profit away from Amazon into your own pocket.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I do, because they're all signed. You can't sell signed books through Amazon. This only started because when I did. Why can't we all just get along in 2020, I had so many people say, oh, why can I get a signed copy? And I thought, well, that's a good point. Where can you. So I set up a very amateurish online shop and I sold like 1500 copies of it. So then I got a website designer to design a shop and brought back the Politico's name. So it's all stemmed from that. You can buy things that aren't by me on. It's basically a politically themed shop, as it says on the website, curated by Ian Dale.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Nice. I might do that for my Queen Marie book, which I've just signed for. But we'll talk about that more another day after the break. I would like to look into, and we don't have to go very far back into more historic but still in living memory political embezzlement and general financial and sexual scandals and where they've left the ruling parties. Because you will find that the SNP are the exception to have scraped back into power. They were badly impacted by this in the general election, 2024, so I think they went from 57 seats. Seats down to. Let me just check that, because I wrote it down.

[Ian Dale]

They got nine.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They got nine. That's right. So 37 of the 57 seats went to Labor. Was it?

[Ian Dale]

And it's very possible that after these two. Aberdeen by election. No. What the one. One in Aberdeen and one in. Where's the other one? Are both. They're taking place on the same day as the. The maker. The of Field one. It's entirely possible that the SNP could lose both of those. One to the Conservatives and one, I think, the other one possibly to Labour.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The timing of this Peter Morrell expose has rather upended what I was really enjoying, and that is the Plucky Plumbers undoing courtesy of retrospective tweets. But we're not talking about tweets posted 20 years ago. We're talking about tweets posted about four years ago concerning Carol Vorderman's.

[Ian Dale]

I know. I never thought we'd be talking about licking Carol Vorderman's asshole, but there we are. That's coming up. Ladies and gentlemen, that is what's called the ultimate tease. Let's go to a break. Now, just before Tessa gets into her stride on the history of political embezzlement. Can I just say that should you wish to see Nicola Sturgeon, be interviewed by me at the Edinburgh Fringe. It's the first show of my run on August 8th, and you can buy tickets now at the Edinburgh Fringe website or just go to my website and there'll be a link there.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just all rock up in your really expensive motorhomes and present her with a Mont Blanc pen to sign this and ask her where she gets her cosmetics from.

[Ian Dale]

The thing is, I have interviewed her at least twice since all the allegations were first aired, and on both occasions she couldn't really say an awful lot. This time she has no hiding place. I mean, I can ask any question I like.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, she said today on her Instagram that she was angry, hurt, sad and distressed. She talked of acute pain. I think there is a sadness about Nicola Sturgeon. I think this comes of a failed marriage, a child she was longed for and didn't have, a political career that consumed her, and now she's the other side of it. And I do have an. An empathy for her and a sympathy for her, but I don't think that exonerates what was effectively, I think, a governmental stitch up when she was running the country. And also I just vehemently oppose independence.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, and I have to say, the point that you made about him running the party while she was First Minister, which, as you say, Alex Salmond warned against, I think is absolutely right, and she has to take responsibility for that. That I will agree with.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's fascinating because you also had a Natalie McGarry done for minor embezzlement. Also SNP. You had the allegations against Alex Salmon. I know they failed in the end, but, you know, quite a lot stuck, surely, 2020 sexual allegations. But the bottom line is, it's extraordinary and exceptional that the SNP did so well in the recent national elections in Scotland. And that speaks to the way in which everything rotten and all the politics of grievance north of the border get kicked down to Westminster. And it will always be the case until Scotland get their way or many Scots get their way and have goddamn independence.

[Ian Dale]

Right, so you want to talk about other examples of embezzlement, because I'm trying to think off the top of my head what examples you're going to come up with, because I don't think there are actually that many. I think generally our politics over the decades has been comparatively clean, but obviously there have been some examples.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I can't believe you've said that, because I think if we look at when the population started losing faith with the political class, it happened not just around Tony Blair's decision to get into bed with America and wage war against Iraq. It was all tied up with the slightly postdated MPs expenses scandal. I know this is sensitive for you because of your former podcast partner, but Jackie actually by no means was the worst among, really a scandal that tainted most of the political establishment in Westminster, from duck houses to moat boats or whatever they were.

[Ian Dale]

Well, you're right, it did taint the whole of politics. Of course, people never look into the details of if there was no duck house, for example. That's always the one that's quoted. But again, that there was no chandelier, as another example that was quoted. It was wasn't a chandelier. It was basically a light. And I remember that period very well because that was probably at the height of my blog. So I did a lot of commentary on it, I did a lot of media on it, and my main thrust was, well, yeah, some of these things are terrible, you're absolutely right. But let's not run away with the idea that all politicians are corrupt. They're not. The system was wrong. The system actually encouraged people to do a lot of these things. I mean, in terms of like flipping houses, for example. I mean, use Jackie as an example. She actually went to the house of Commons Fees Office. And she explained her situation and they advised her to flip her houses. Now, if you advise by the authority that runs the House of Commons Fees Department to do that, I mean, you could say, well, she still shouldn't have done it, fine. But there was a lot of examples of them actually advising MPs to claim things which you and I would think, well, how can you possibly claim that on expenses?

[Tessa Dunlop]

But just to remind you, you say a lot of people are exonerated. Some of the cases are exaggerated. Bearing in mind this is a Labour administration, particularly towards the tail end of Gordon Brown being absolutely hammered, predominantly, but not exclusively, by the Telegraph, but nonetheless, the bottom line was several ministers and the speaker of the House of Commons had to resign their post and five MPs, Ian, were sent to jail. Yeah, over this.

[Ian Dale]

Expenses, absolutely. Which in some ways proves the legal system works, because people were held accountable for deliberate. I mean, is it. I mean, I'm never quite sure what the difference between fraud and embezzlement is. I mean, there were clearly some things which. Which you could regard as fraudulent and those MPs were held to account for it. And yet people still talk nowadays as though no one was held to account for anything. Careers were absolutely ruined over it and some perfectly innocent people's careers were ruined over it. I mean, the way the Conservatives handled this. I mean, David Cameron, he was absolutely ruthless. And there were various. I mean, I can't remember who they were now, but there were various Conservatives whose careers never recovered from it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's interesting is that new rules were established and I'm going to cite a couple of them, without wishing to get too politically geeky, but none of them have seen the restoration of trust, that vital cultural capital in any democracy, return between the electorate and those in power. So we had the establishment of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and we also had the end of parliamentary self regulation, which crazily existed up until that point for both expenses and MPs pay. You also had a sort of new breed of politician. And I suppose, I mean, I know he's a bit of a rival of ours, but Rory Stewart might be seen as one of those who kind of entered the house in 2010 as a kind of, I don't know, more crusading style of politician who I think were. Were posited themselves as kind of a new breed. You also had the election of the Chairs of select committees. That gave a bit of space and more power to the parliamentary body versus the power of the executive. Things were changed, Ian, and yet we still don't trust those in power in Westminster, and yet the mud hasn't stuck north of the border. That's what's so fascinating about this, the double standard.

[Ian Dale]

No, it is fascinating, but I think it's just. It's not only our country that's suffered this. I mean, this is going on throughout all democracies where voters in general, for all sorts of different reasons, have lost trust in the political class. And yes, the MP's expenses scandal was a big part of that in this country, but it went much deeper than that. It goes into how politicians appear on the media, how they just, most of them can't relate to ordinary people, even if they are ordinary people themselves. I mean, you see, Andy Burnham is a great example of this. You probably won't have seen this, but Russell Kane did quite a funny Instagram reel, essentially impersonating Andy Burnham, pretending to be like an ordinary person. And so he sort of films himself in his house saying, well, look, I'm buttering my toast here and it's white bread, I can tell you, and I'm going to have a poo. Now, I'm one of you. I'm just like you. And, I mean, I haven't done it justice, but it was very, very funny. He's done the same thing with Nigel Farage, and I think there is too much of that. Why some politicians try to pretend that they're just like us when any fool can see that they're not. And there are very comparatively few politicians, musicians, who can carry it off. And I mean, there are. There's several labor mps now, strangely, who. They're all from the north and I think I've spoken about this before, and they use their accents really well to come across as ordinary. One of you, Luke Charters, who actually resigned as PPs to who was it this week? Somebody, anyway, and says Starmer should set out a timetable for leadership. He's the MP for York outer. He's only 30, comes on cross Question reasonably often. And he really, really has got a very Yorkshire accent and, boy, does he play it up. And he admits he plays it up. He actually said when he was on Cross question on Monday, well, you know, you. You know me, Ian, I'm a blunt Northerner. I'm thinking, yeah, okay. And I think it's. It's quite a successful thing to do if. But people can spot a fraud a mile off. If you really try and put it on and pretend that you're something you're not. Voters can spot that accent is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Has become the all consuming, all important identifier in not just political life, but I would say cultural life in Britain. The reason I'm south of the border is when I came back up from university after school, I was told by Scottish media assigned it to English and I couldn't get work, so I went south of the border and actually my little brother sounds, always sounded more Scottish than me, was much more canny, kept and cultivated his accent. I notice also in all his electioneering he used his two middle names, which are both very Scottish. So Duncan Angus Melville Dunlop. You know, that idea of being a Scot in Scotland, working for the Scottish people, that's just one small personal example from my own family.

[Ian Dale]

Kate, what's your middle name?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think Juliet. I sound much more English. Theresa Juliet Dunlop. You know, and also when I was bullied at school, if you tell me to go left, I go right. If you tell me, you know, somebody who's threatening me and saying I'm, you know. I remember in Piloquery High School, the state school I went to at secondary level, and I said to the kid, I'm sure I've told you a story on the pod before. Gary McNicholl took the Mick out of me because I said, could you pass the pen, please? The teacher had left the classroom and he went, could you pass the pen, please? And I stood up and said, come here and say that. And he came over and I had to lap him because he arrived in front of my desk and the whole class was watching and I was, I'm not going to change my accent because I'm being effectively xenophobically called out by a bully in a class, a bloody clubhead, the kind of Wayne Rooney of Piloquery. Forgive me, Wayne, but anyway, the bottom line is, you know, I've always not regretted it, but I thought, God, there would have been a kind of a belonging badge that immediately was attached to my name and voice if I sounded a bit different. But I'm so contrary, I never gave into it.

[Ian Dale]

If anybody knows Gary from Pitlochrie, we'll happily invite him onto the podcast next week and he can have a right of reply.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. By the way, apparently lives in England these days. England. That's Garry.

[Ian Dale]

Now, before we move on, have you got any other examples, maybe more historic ones, of political embezzlement? I mean, the one that springs to mind is Maundy Gregory, of whom a biography was written recently, a very good one, and he was essentially selling honours for Lloyd George and pocketing the money, or at Least Lloyd George and he were pocketing the money and I think that's quite a famous one. Are there any others that you can think of?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, what's interesting is I got kind of sidetracked looking into the Major administration. The first thing was I noticed, I do think, that the expenses scandal impacted on the Brown administration and its electoral misfortunes, I. E. The arrival in 2010 of the Coalition government. Likewise John Major, you'll remember, he promised us back to basics and then he was undone, not only by sexual scandals, including of his own, but there was a sort of stink to a lot of the politicians, not just David Mellor. Do you remember David Mellor? I got totally distracted going down the David Miller rabbit hole with Anthony.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I know David Mellor a bit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I bet you do. And then also there was the guy who tragically died asphyxiating himself for sexual kicks. Major himself, of course, Claire Latimer. He always denied that one. But we know Edwina Currie based her saucy novels on her affair with the Prime Minister. But then, actually there were cases of cash for questions.

[Ian Dale]

Hang on, again, let's be historically accurate. He was not Prime Minister when he had an affair with Edwina Currie.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Like Nigel Farage wasn't in the House of Commons when he received £5 million.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that is actually a matter of

[Tessa Dunlop]

fact, I believe we're not talking about Carol Vorderman's hull, only because of the.

[Ian Dale]

Are we going to come on to that?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think we'll do it. Among the questions, it's just really. It's like the SNP have eclipsed one party of grievance, has eclipsed another party of grievance, and one horror story has capped another. But actually, if you look, we had Tom Smith. Smith resigning as Northern Ireland Secretary and later admitting accepting money that was on behalf of Harrod's, now further discredited Mohamed Al Fayed.

[Ian Dale]

Tim Smith.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, Tim Smith. One letter.

[Ian Dale]

Just one letter.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was a long time ago and he wasn't that big a deal in my life. He wasn't featuring Majorly.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, John has just returned, so the dogs are very excited.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Can I see John? Am I allowed to get a peek at him? No, no, he's just a shadowy creature.

[Ian Dale]

He won't appear. He does exist, though. I mean, haven't actually made his existence up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I saw his shadow flit past. Literally. Yeah. Could have been a sort of axe murderer later, waiting to pounce. Give me.

[Ian Dale]

Cos, by the way, by the way, I meant to mention this in the fluff at the top. But I've been thinking, because, you know, I've got two weeks off at the. The second half of June and I don't. I don't want to spend all the time away, so I thought, where can I go in Europe on just. Just like a five day little jaunt? And I've decided that if I do this, I'm going to go to Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia and do them all three in five days. What do you think of that?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's a good idea. If you'd said Romania, I would have been really hurt for you to come here without me.

[Ian Dale]

No, I wouldn't go there without you because obviously I need a chaperone to

[Tessa Dunlop]

make sure you behave. Yes, Ian, when he goes into bars at night, I can throw you. And I say that with Johnny. Spitting distance. Anyway, can we go back to Tim Smith? Because you're letting the Conservatives off the hook. We had him resign as Northern Ireland Secretary. Yes, he admitted accepting money. You had the whole.

[Ian Dale]

Again, you've got to get this right. He wasn't Northern Ireland Secretary. He was a PPS in the Northern Ireland office. I don't think he was even a minister.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He was a minister. He was a minister and not secretary. Minister.

[Ian Dale]

I'm going to look him up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He bloody well was a minister, Ian, I'm telling you, he was a minister.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, carry on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Neil Hamilton lost his libel suit against our Fayed. Oh, Jonathan Aitken. Do you remember that chappie, Jack?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, yeah. The sword of truth.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Indeed. Managed to lie off under oath and perjured himself. The truth is that all these incidents built up, I think, into a crescendo that results in a lack of trust with establishment politics. At the same time as you get fake news and the Internet, conspiracy theories are kind of built. But what's really interesting isn't that story, which is almost inevitable, that we're kind of again, the establishment, especially as at the same time, national wealth falls. So from 2007 onwards, we're all getting a bit poorer, or not getting as rich as we once were and we're looking for someone to blame. But what's interesting is the way in which Scotland is anomalous. You get just as much, in fact, probably more per head, corruption within the political class. And let yeo and behold, they just pass the buck down to Westminster.

[Ian Dale]

John, Tessa would like to come and see what you look like. Can you just sort of just have a look in the laptop?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hi, John.

[Ian Dale]

You know I don't do that sort of thing. Did you hear that?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hi, John, full respect.

[Ian Dale]

She says hello just so you can he. He doesn't know what you look like. There you are. That's a really hot day and a really fat gut.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hello. Hi, all. Be nice to meet you.

[Ian Dale]

I'm Super Fashion. She says, nice to meet you. What do you want to say?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I was just going to say that I'm going to see if I can get some Romanian Cosinax sent down to Tonbridge Wells.

[Ian Dale]

She's going to get some Romanian cake for you to sample because apparently I sampled this and it's gone viral in Romania. Okay. How lovely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

John, one day.

[Ian Dale]

Am I okay off?

[Grainger Announcer]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Can you ask me if I can come for dinner one night? You said I could come.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, she says can she come for dinner one day? If she's cooking, yes. If you're cooking, yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've done the cake then, like promised.

[Ian Dale]

We've got about 10 minutes to do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's a beautiful moment.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that was an unexpected pleasure for you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I think we'll just leave.

[Ian Dale]

That doesn't talk to many people that I talk to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That was touching. I've come over all queer. Okay, time for a break.

[Ian Dale]

That's what he did when I first met him. Anyway, less of that you can read about. You can read about that first meeting in my forthcoming autobiography. And it's quite a tale, let me tell you. Right. As you say, time for a break.

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[Ian Dale]

Right. If you'd like to send a question into the podcast, just send it by email to where politics [e-mail] or if you go on the Instagram account, where politics meets history, you can leave a question there too, and Tessa will pick it up. Do you want to start?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, I will start. So, skipping all the ones on Romanian sweet bread, let's tackle this one from Ollie. It takes us back a bit and we've forgotten about Dear Wes recently, but it's focused on Wes because Ollie says, I know Ian is close friends with Wes, but I do wonder as to whether Ian genuinely believes a Wes can win. This is putative potential leadership contest. Presumably between Burnham and Wes and B, whether he would be a good Prime Minister. My answer would be no to both and I'm speaking as somebody who would love to see a gay pm, but now is not the time, nor the person. I think Labour have hyped this up so much and I can't begin to understand why we are losing the plot.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think it partly depends on whether Andy Burnham wins the by election. I think if he does win that, he's in pole position. If he doesn't win it. I've already said that I think Angela Rayner would be best placed to win a Labour leadership election. But I think West Streeting would make a better Prime Minister than any of them. So that's in brief, where I stand on it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Interesting. You say that. I always think of you as this arch Brexiteer and there's where he's come out fully in favour of remain of re examining our relationship with Europe, taking us back almost to the time before the Hundred Years War. He's so keen to reset things. And yet you're recognizing, I think, that his gray matter is infinitely superior to that of Burnham's or Evangela Rayner's.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's not even about grey matter. I just think he would be capable of doing the job of Prime Minister. Look, he's not from my party. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but as you say, particularly on the eu. But I can recognise that people who have been Labour or Liberal Prime Ministers in the past have been good Prime Ministers. Clement Attlee, I think was a good Prime Minister, even though I wouldn't have supported a lot of the things that. That he did, particularly the nationalizations. But it'd be fatuous to say that he wasn't a good Prime Minister, just as there are plenty of Conservative Prime Ministers who've been bad Prime Ministers. What you have to do is work out what the things a Prime Minister has to do and then think, well, would that person be good at them? And I think the main thing that makes a good Prime Minister is if they know where they're heading, they know how to get there and they can make the machinery of government work for them. And I'm afraid that Keir Starmer isn't capable of doing that. I actually doubt whether Andy Burnham is, because I don't think he's got a clear sense of direction. I don't think he has a root rooted ideology, whereas I think Wes does. So that. And I think Angela Rayner does and that's where I think either of them would make a better Prime Minister. Maybe not as good a salesman as as Wes is very good at marketing Labour policies. I mean, that's Anti Burnham's main strength. But you can't be a good Prime Minister just by being a good salesman.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I just want to intervene and remind everyone re Ollie's point that have we lost the plot? Interestingly, since Labour was elected in the third quarter of 2024, output per worker has risen by 2.4%. This is unprecedented since 2008. And yet apparently the government is failing. It's brought down migration as promised, it has pushed up growth as promised, and yet it's all swings and roundabouts and we're going to bring in a shiny man of the North. It does I agree with Ollie Stink. It's insane. But what can you do? The great Demos has spoken or is about to speak. You ask a question now, right?

[Ian Dale]

Prit Pal Bula says in the last pod the outbound migration of young British people was talked about as a Brexit phenomenon by Tessa. However, I'm 49 and I have many friends, mainly in Australia who left after graduating for a new life down under, but some are also in the USA and New Zealand. I don't think it's a new phenomenon. Also, I read in the Irish Times how they're looking for ways to keep Irish trained doctors in Ireland because there are so many who are leaving. And many other stories talk about the cost of living challenges and other similar stories to the uk yet Ireland is in the eu. I voted to leave the EU and stand by my vote still. But do get fed up with people romanticizing the return to the EU as a magic pill rather than focusing on how we can use our freedoms and flexibility outside the EU to do better for our nation. How can we reframe frame this conversation through the realities rather than rose tinted spectacles? And then she lists some links on this as well. I think there is something in that. I mean the grass is always greener on the other side. That's the case whether we're in the EU or not. And I think people are now starting to think, okay, well if we did go back into the eu, on what terms would it be? And there's a big article in the Daily Mail this morning with quotes from a senior European Parliament official she's chairman of. I can't remember what committee it was. But anyway, somebody reasonably important who essentially said that if Britain thinks it could come back into the EU without joining the euro and it will still get the same rebates as it had before. Well, dream on now. I think that's. It's that sort of thing where this argument about the substance of the whole 4% economic growth or I see it's now increased to 8%, there's the difference to what it would have been had we stayed in. I think that's going to come into sharp focus if there is a serious debate about returning to the eu. My suspicion is that if Labour is re elected after the next election, even if it's a minority government, maybe in a coalition with the Liberals, but I think there will be continual further moves to align ourselves with the EU in many different ways. But I don't really foresee a decision to re enter because you'd have to surely have a referendum on that. And I mean, okay, as generations move on, you might say that, well, people will be more willing to contemplate joining the euro and they might be willing to contemplate some financial penalties just for the return of freedom of movement. Well, let's have that debate.

[Tessa Dunlop]

In fact, thanks very much for that question. I've moved on slightly because I think the bludgeoning each other over the head with Brexit, I think it's a very good point. I felt the profound tragedy that was to me personally and to many others and also economically of Brexit is one of the reasons it hit so hard was I don't think it can just be solved with a wave of a magic wand and a re entry into either groupings that we have no say over like the Customs Union or the Single Market or indeed reentry into Europe because we wouldn't have the perks that we once did. So that's absolutely. I'm interested by West Streeting at least acknowledging the damage we did, but I'm not believing for a minute that we can just laser trail back in with the same T's and C's. But what I did want to flag up in terms of migration is the insanity and I've never understood why this happened and why they don't change it of putting foreign students in the net and gross migration statistics Rishi Sunak that particularly hammered the way in which foreign students are framed costed and whether they can bring in other members of their family when they come to study. And we've seen a massive shortfall in international applications into our third tertiary education sector and the result has been not just a drop in numbers by a tenth, but that is in financial terms a fifth of our university's Income overnight squandered because we are playing to the politics of grievance and trying to, I think, irresponsibly bring down migration numbers in all the wrong ways. People are worried about boats, not foreign students with money in their pockets. And yet they're the ones who have been hit. It's ridiculous.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I agree with you on the students, on international students, because we don't shout from the rooftops enough about how successful our universities are. And to my mind, we should be welcoming as many international students into this country as possible. And if you make it more difficult for them to come, don't be surprised if they go to other English speaking countries. And I mean the family thing, I mean, I think is a difficult one because it is undoubtedly utterly true that if a student brings three or four members of their wider family with them, I mean, inevitably they're going to be a cost on the state. And I can see why they wanted to restrict that. But the way they did it was so blunt and crass that it did put a lot of people off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We're not necessarily talking about three or four members, just coming with your partner. But it's also the kind of mood music around these decisions. It bleeds into conversations and ideas of Britain and how easy it is to access British capital assets and education and it turns people off and it's a tragedy. I wanted to do a deep dive today if we hadn't been derailed by Murrell on the extraordinary heritage of our universities, going back to early medieval establishment of Oxford and Cambridge, great north of the border, by the way, the extraordinary success stories. That was the again, early medieval St Andrews, Aberdeen, Glasgow, these are institutions, iconic, world famous institutions that should be allowed to sell their assets internationally. And also that wonderful cross pollination that comes from encouraging the best and the brightest and dare I say, the richest, who then go forth with this base knowledge not just of our education system, but of our country and are able to, you know, work in a world from an Anglophone perspective. And that's something I think we should hold on to like a precious vase.

[Ian Dale]

Totally agree with you. However, you're not really correct on student numbers. I've just been looking them up. In 2015 there were 438,000 international students and over the next few years it went up to 442, 458, 496, 556, and in 2020, 2021, it was 605,000, then went up to 680,000 and people peaked in 2022, 2023 at 759,000 before in 2023, 24, dropping to 730,000. Now, there has been a drop off from Europe because obviously the fee structure changed after Brexit, but they've been more than supplanted by extra students from Nigeria, India and China, predominantly. So it hasn't been. I mean, I. It'll be interesting to see what the 2024, 2025 figures are, but there hasn't been a massive drop off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

10% drop off. I took it from the Financial Times this morning. I'll argue it out with you when I get back.

[Ian Dale]

In the meantime, I'm actually on 759 to 730 does not equate to 10%.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think you're on chat GDP there in Tunbridge Wells. I'm going to have to change it. Yeah, exactly. I rest my case. Bloody hell. Don't believe a word he says. Forget the authority gap. I'm going to go positive so one day I too can look like you. I've spent all pod worrying about the fact people might think I'm fattest. I'm not fattest. I think Ian looks terrific these days, which is good, because as a taxpayer, I'm helping.

[Ian Dale]

Didn't you think? I always did then.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I think you look better now. A bit thinner. I mean, you'll be asking me. Goodness sake. Surely that's the reason why you're stabbing your veins.

[Ian Dale]

Are you saying that you're ending the podcast now before we have a chance to talk about Carol Vorderman?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think I see the one I hazar. I've got four children outside, irascible because I've prevented them from entering the Internet.

[Ian Dale]

Irascible.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Irascible. Thank you, Internet wonder. For a whole hour. It's like taking crack cocaine away from an addict. And I've got to prepare for my media flurry tomorrow morning because I wrote an article about yak yak degrees and their uselessness and didn't realize I was walking into a minefield because I said my younger daughter Elena doesn't get drama lessons, she gets coding lessons. Lessons. And apparently I'm again behind the curve and it's all wrong because there's no point in learning coding because AI does it all for you, so we may as well just act. We could all end up being the next Andy Burnham after all.

[Ian Dale]

Well, there's an ambition for all of our listeners.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Because they want to be just like you. Anyway, goodbye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Goodbye from me and goodbye from him. This has been a global player, original production.