130. Tranche Like Nobody's Watching

Summary

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Where Politics Meets History

Episode 130: Tranche Like Nobody's Watching

Released: June 2, 2026

Hosts: Iain Dale (broadcaster) & Dr Tessa Dunlop (historian)

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Episode Overview

In this lively, deeply insightful episode, Iain Dale and Dr. Tessa Dunlop tackle the week’s headline news through the lens of historical parallels and context, focusing heavily on the ongoing war in Ukraine, echoes of 20th-century military conflict, and the nature of modern political discourse. The episode balances gravitas with the signature wit and banter between the hosts, spanning topics from NATO’s response to Russian provocations, the scale and meaning of wartime casualties, the transformation of military technology, political scandals at home, and the evolving challenges facing the British electorate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. NATO, Russian Drones, and Red Lines

Timestamps: 01:12 – 02:29 & 26:02 – 28:15

• Tessa criticizes NATO’s passive response to Russian drones landing in Romanian territory, observing that inaction emboldens Vladimir Putin:

  “If you leave a wiggle room of space, Putin will occupy it. He’ll get his pinky and he’ll go icky, ick, icky, and he’ll make the space grow.” (01:58, Tessa)

• The discussion highlights the historical consequences of failing to enforce “red lines,” likening the situation to appeasement in the run-up to past European wars.
• Quiz Segment: Tessa quizzes Iain on Romanian geography and political pronunciation, critiquing British media’s ignorance (26:02 – 28:15).

2. Modern Warfare: Drones, Death Tolls, & Trench Echoes

Timestamps: 13:40 – 25:44

• Devastating Scale:
  • 35,000 Russian soldiers killed per month, compounding into a generation of lost youth (14:14 – 14:54).
  • Russia bans flags on fresh graves to hide mounting casualty numbers.
  • Tessa: “During the USSR-Afghanistan war, after 15,000 casualties, there were protests… The ruthless iron grip that at the moment Putin has on his country, that we haven’t seen equivalent protests.” (14:54)
• Technological Change and Old Warfare:
  • Modern warfare in Ukraine fuses WWI trenches, WWII tank warfare, and new drone/robotics systems.
  • “The casualty rate now, for every three to four injured men, one fatality. It’s grotesque.” (18:19, Tessa)
  • The inability to airlift wounded due to drones means increased fatality, a grim reversal of Cold War and Afghanistan trend lines.
• Personal History:
  • Iain shares moving family history: great uncle killed ten days before Armistice in WWI and later visiting his grave, highlighting the generational tragedy and futility of war (19:28 – 21:09).

3. How the Conflict is Shaping Global Security & Political Responses

Timestamps: 22:18 – 25:44

• Putin’s ability to “sell” the Ukraine war as a revival of Russia, despite the reality of its costs (22:18).
• The evolution of military strategy as both Russia and Ukraine learn and teach “NATO brass” about modern warfare.
  • “Ever since 2014… the Ukrainians had [been] weaponizing smartphone technology. They were a step ahead… adapting to drone style warfare because we… wouldn’t give them the missiles and artillery…” (28:15, Tessa)
• The knock-on effect: lessons for other tense flashpoints (e.g., Taiwan ramping up drone capacity as deterrence).

4. Political Gossip & Transparency (Lord Mandelson Files)

Timestamps: 28:18 – 30:01

• Iain reviews the latest release of Mandelson files:
  “So far there doesn’t seem to be a particular smoking gun. It’s all very interesting gossip… Does this amount to a sum of beans?” (28:48, Iain)
• Debate about government transparency vs. effectiveness—if all discussions are public, ministers avoid candor; Tessa notes the double standard in scrutiny compared to Scotland and the SNP.

5. The Nicola Sturgeon & SNP Money Scandal

Timestamps: 29:27 – 34:55

• Deliberations over Nicola Sturgeon’s culpability in her ex-husband’s alleged fraud; discussions about personal responsibility and how political partners in “dynastic” leadership blur accountability.
• Tessa: “The cost of being a successful female [politician] is really high, still in the 21st century.” (33:34)
• Revisiting gendered scrutiny and possible sadness in Sturgeon’s story.

6. Class, Elites and Reform Party Rhetoric

Timestamps: 35:09 – 43:05

• Why working-class and traditional Labour supporters are turning to Reform:
  • Historical context: “Who was it marching in support of Enoch Powell? It was the London Dockers. You don’t get more working class… Which section… most virulent against welfare cheats? It’s the working classes.” (38:01, Iain)
• The hosts spar over whether Labour and the Conservatives "take their bases for granted.”
• Tessa is sharply critical of Reform and Nigel Farage’s “grievance politics,” warning women in particular about the party’s threat to rights:

  "They would rip up the Equalities Act. So any woman who’s thinking of voting Reform, hold your horses.” (37:41, Tessa)

• Iain pushes back, noting that working-class anger at metropolitan elites and welfare “cheats” has deep historic roots.

7. On Youth, Work, and the Generation “Neet”

Timestamps: 44:28 – 54:26

• Listener question on NEETs (Not in Education, Employment, or Training) and tough graduate job prospects.
• Tessa reflects on the generational shift in girls’ responses to harassment (her daughter Mara would be “far quicker to kick them in the balls”).
• Iain is skeptical of claims about graduate job shortages, suggesting entrepreneurial alternatives, but acknowledges the challenge of automation and AI (49:33).
• Debates Rishi Sunak’s (half-baked) “national service” proposals; Tessa champions Scandinavian-style conscription for youth engagement and aspiration.
• Tessa defends the movement to allow Romanian language GCSE, advocating for recognition of heritage and additional skills.

8. Sexism in Politics: Reform’s Robert Kenyon

Timestamps: 54:26 – 57:06

• Listener question spotlights Reform by-election candidate’s misogynist comments (“Women can’t drive and get abortions for vanity purposes to shag anyone they want. He admitted, ‘I’m sexist. Sorry, but I am.’”)
• Tessa links this rhetoric to wider political coarsening and rising threats against women:

  “When you lower the public bar, you lower standards all round… You see what I know you hate being referred to as toxic masculinity being meted out…behind closed doors, on streets, in schoolyards.” (56:36, Tessa)

• Iain questions whether “unsafe” is the right word for such rhetoric’s impact, but Tessa insists tone and precedent have “real and visceral” effects.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On NATO inaction:
  “If you leave a wiggle room of space, Putin will occupy it. He’ll get his pinky and he’ll go icky, ick, icky, and he’ll make the space grow.” (01:58, Tessa)
• On war deaths and funerary bans:
  “They’ve now prohibited putting flags on fresh graves in Russia because it was drawing too much attention... to the casualty rate.” (14:54, Tessa)
• On the futility of war:
  “Just think about that. ...generations and the cousins that I’ve missed out on having. What he... missed out on. And it does bring home to you the futility of war.” (20:08–21:09, Iain)
• On political transparency:
  “Nobody is going to write anything that they think could be used against them in the future.” (28:51, Iain)
• On gendered pain and politics:
  “There’s a lot of sadness baked into Nicola Sturgeon. The failed marriage, the lack of children. ...the cost of being a successful female, which is really high still in the 21st century.” (33:33, Tessa)
• On populism and class:
  “If you think back to Enoch Powell’s river of blood speech in 1968, who was it marching in support of Enoch Powell? It was the London Dockers.” (38:01, Iain)
• On political tone and women’s safety:
  “When you lower the public bar, you lower standards all round... being meted out not just online, but actually in a very real and visceral sense, behind closed doors, on streets, in schoolyards.” (56:36, Tessa)

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Engaging Banter & Personality

• Tessa recounts her disastrous attempt at gifting Iain a Romanian waistcoat—and making him perform a Romanian dance.
• Lighthearted but pointed exchanges about body image, missing each other, and the perils of Zoom podcasting (03:01, 03:36, 03:45).
• Iain confesses his love for pop over classics: “All mine are sort of cheap tat pop.” (11:16)
• Tessa’s memory of not fitting in musically, feeling "shrivelled up on the floor" (12:07), links the personal to cultural history.

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:12–02:29 — NATO’s non-response to Russian drone, historical parallels
• 13:40–19:21 — War casualties, impact on Russia, personal family stories
• 22:18–25:44 — Modern military technology and lessons for the West
• 28:18–30:01 — The Mandelson files and political transparency debate
• 33:33 — The sadness and scrutiny surrounding female politicians like Sturgeon
• 37:41 — Tessa’s warning to women voters about Reform’s policy threat
• 44:28–46:10 — Workplace harassment anecdotes and generational shifts
• 49:13–54:26 — The grim data on graduate jobs, national service discussion
• 54:26–57:06 — Sexism in politics, Kenyon’s comments, and the cultural consequences

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode blends biting humor and camaraderie with sobering analysis. Dr. Tessa Dunlop’s historical framing and emotional anecdotes pair with Iain Dale’s pragmatic skepticism and personal stories, making the political both relatable and urgent. They challenge each other—sometimes heatedly—while unearthing the enduring patterns beneath today’s headlines.

This episode is essential listening for anyone wanting to understand how current crises—from Ukraine’s trenches to Westminster’s scandals—both reflect and diverge from the past, and what that might mean for Britain’s future.

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Transcript

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[Tessa Dunlop]

This is a global player Original podcast Robert Kenyon. He said some things that, as a woman, actually make me feel quite unsafe.

[Ian Dale]

Because he's been sexist and doesn't like women drivers and makes assertions about women having abortions. How does that make someone feel?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, it does, because it's the tone. When you lower the public bar, you. You also then lower standards all round in a very real and visceral sense. Behind closed doors, on streets, in schoolyards.

[Ian Dale]

She's back. I am with a vengeance.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know.

[Ian Dale]

It's so nice to have you sitting here rather than on a screen. It never quite works the same on a screen, does it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It doesn't. It's extraordinary. By the way, how on Thursday's edition of Where Politics Meets History, prior to the Russian drone.

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You were attacked penetrating NATO and Romanian territory, injuring two people, by the way. NATO doing nothing. Did you notice how NATO did nothing?

[Ian Dale]

Well, apart from issue. Stern words.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but they didn't even call Article 4, convene a meeting. It's because we've been allowing Russia to penetrate NATO space territory with their drones since the beginning of the war.

[Ian Dale]

I suppose they will have come to the conclusion that maybe it wasn't deliberate, it's just a drone that went off course.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Red lines, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

I know. I'm totally. I'm not denying that. But I suspect that's why they didn't take it seriously, as you clearly think they should have done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

If you leave a wiggle room of space, Putin will occupy it. He'll get his pinky and he'll go icky, ick, icky, and he'll make the space grow. We're going to come to the war and look at the parallels between the Great War, the Second World War and modern warfare, and why waging war against a smaller country has never looked more problematic.

[Ian Dale]

I wouldn't describe Ukraine as a smaller country.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Smaller than Russia.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's true. Every country is smaller than Russia, though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Everything's relative. And Iran is hardly A small country, but relative to America.

[Ian Dale]

Should we do a bit of fluff first, though?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, tickle me. I've just tickled you actually off.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, my God. Yes. She's brought me a present back from Romania, which, should we say, didn't quite fit. Despite my increasingly lithe figure. She bought a sort of Romanian, very colorful waistcoat, embroidered waistcoat for men. And it, should we say, didn't meet

[Tessa Dunlop]

around the front, but I bought an embroidered belt. You in?

[Ian Dale]

It was a Cummer band, wasn't it? And she was fiddling around the back and it was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's all.

[Ian Dale]

She made me do a Romanian dance. I think we might need.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We might need to edit some of.

[Ian Dale]

Sounds unbelievable.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And the dance is called a horror.

[Ian Dale]

Is it really? No good going back to your old days.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's what Ian said. So that's in the trail for those of you who ever go on Instagram or the Facebook. Will you dare to put that on X?

[Ian Dale]

What?

[Tessa Dunlop]

That trail.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. So.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I mean, it is proof that the Manjaro we've paid for is working, but not working quite fast enough.

[Ian Dale]

No, it isn't, because I've actually put on a couple of pounds.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How? Because you don't drink, so how.

[Ian Dale]

No, but I think I've been eating pretty badly in the last couple of weeks.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have you been stressed? Have you been missing me?

[Ian Dale]

I've been missing you. That must be it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you think you did miss me a bit?

[Ian Dale]

I do miss you. I like what I'm used to and I. It's. It's the unusual thing when we get. When you're not here, so therefore I don't like it when you're not.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know I've been doing the horror this week and I'm going cruising at the beginning of next month. You know that, don't you? So that's good.

[Ian Dale]

No, I don't know that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Where are you going?

[Tessa Dunlop]

You know, I'm not. Not your kind of cruising. I'm going cruising.

[Ian Dale]

What do you mean, my kind of cruising?

[Tessa Dunlop]

On a big white ship.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Where?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Round, I think the Mediterranean or somewhere. I'm lecturing. I'm lecturing now.

[Ian Dale]

A friend of mine told me over the weekend that he's just done this, he's written a book on. Who was it some not very memorable Romanian. No, not Romanian Roman Emperor, but not a very well known one. Pistratus?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't know. You're clearly so memorable, you can't remember.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, so he's been on a cruise ship. Had to get off at Malta, apparently.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'm going and they've been very problematic over the arrival and departure time. So I need. Need to sit down with Corey and work out how we can connect. Maybe on Starlink.

[Ian Dale]

Right. How. How many episodes are you going to be away for?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's confront that when we come to it.

[Ian Dale]

In the meantime, not more than two, I hope. In the meantime, we can't even deploy Aggie because it's been announced today that she's off on maternity leave.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, God. It's okay.

[Ian Dale]

It's pretty blatant. Obviously she's going to be on maternity leave. I have to say I bought Romanian

[Tessa Dunlop]

wine for any potential fill in.

[Ian Dale]

Have you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. Don't look skeptical. You don't drink wine. They make very good wine.

[Ian Dale]

Do they?

[Tessa Dunlop]

On the fluff?

[Ian Dale]

It's not known. Romania is not a country known for its wine, though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You are such a snob. Actually, Moldova, which used to be part of Romania, the Moldovan Republic, provided the USSR with all its wines and champagnes. And one of the ways that Vladimir Putin punished Moldova for doing what Ukraine was doing, this was pre the Ukraine war for trying to move closer to the EU and the Western markets was by stopping importing all Moldovan wines and champagnes because they said they didn't meet their hygiene standards. I. It was an embargo, basically. It's a commercial kind of threat, a blockade. And as a result all that happened was the Republic of Moldova got much better at exporting into Europe and beyond. And Pori is really an exceptionally good wine. Actually too good, I think, to give to my fill in. I have to.

[Ian Dale]

I've bought a cheaper one, whoever that might be. Are you back by the 15th of July?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

Good.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's happening then?

[Ian Dale]

The launch of my book.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, God almighty. On books. Mine is 99p on Kindle. Now get me. Give me some proper fluff or we're going to a break and digging into Mandelson's rear end. I mean, I didn't mean that. Bitcoin.

[Ian Dale]

Not a phrase I ever thought I'd hear you utter. I know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I didn't mean that. I meant, you know, going in the back channels. I mean, what I mean is the bits that weren't meant to be read. I mean, I. God knows. The humble address. That's the thing I was looking for, the humble address.

[Ian Dale]

Did you see the front page of the Mail on Sunday yesterday?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No. What did they say?

[Ian Dale]

It was basically asserting that Nigel Farage has been banned from doing Desert Island Discs.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's interesting because I wasn't aware that you could be banned. Do you think that's true?

[Ian Dale]

No, I don't think it's true. I mean, I think it is. He hasn't been invited on it and it is slightly odd that he hasn't, given that he's been in the public eye for so long and one of the major people in public life in Britain, well, for at least 10 years, if not more.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let me go through the a long list of major politicians and tell me how many of them have been on des islands.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'll save you the bother because all of them have.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Gordon Brown.

[Ian Dale]

Yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Tony Blair.

[Ian Dale]

Yes. Kimi Badenok. Yes. David Cameron. Yes. Keir Starmer. Yes. The only one that hasn't Davey. Yes. The only one that hasn't is Zach Polanski. But he's only been party leader for a short time. Yeah, yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That really is lowering the bar.

[Ian Dale]

So the thinking goes, well, why hasn't Nigel Farage been invited now? I think there is something to the fact that while sort of liberal, lefty, BBC, sort of, and the whole story was about that BBC staff would feel unsafe if Nigel Farage did a Desert Island Discs in the studio. I mean, have you heard of anything?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that's poppycock. What you could argue is he just runs a party with five MPs. There's a couple more across the floor subsequently. But actually the size of his party reform in Parliament isn't comparable even to the Liberal Democrats.

[Ian Dale]

But a lot of politicians do do it in opposition. I mean, I think Tony Blair did it. He was in opposition rather than Prime Minister. I think I'm right in saying that if you look as if you might form the government, I mean, that's a pretty good reason to have somebody on. So I think there probably is some sort of editorial thing going on there, but I don't believe he's actually been banned. I think he ought to be invited to do it at some point. But you're not really into music, are you? Because I did ask you to bring your eight records with you, but you don't really do music.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do have, however, a relationship with Desert Island Discovery because my favourite and classiest Bletchley girl, Pamela Rose, was invited onto Desert Islandists off the back of being in my book Bletchley Girls, because a BBC producer came to the launch and was just utterly intrigued by her. She was the woman who was offered her first role on the west end stage in 1941 and she asked Frank Birch, who was trying to recruit her through a godmother, to Bletchley park, which she should do. She had some German, she'd done her Finnish sigil and year off etc in Munich, unlike all the British Cabinet, who had no German. And Frank Birch replied to her, the stage can wait, the war cannot. And so she was devastated to have to go and serve at Bletchley Park. She felt she should, because during that period her brother was missing in action. He was later found to be safe and well and ended up being one of the great and the good, such was the ruling class in those days. But she served at Bletchley park and she found it terribly dull because of course, the rest of her life, life was so fearsomely exciting. I said, pamela, I can't really put that. I'm trying to sell a book here, babes help a bit. But she went on Des Angus and she was hugely musical. Being theatrical helped establish Glyndebourne. And it was one of the great joys at the end of her life, selecting the music which.

[Ian Dale]

But why don't you like music?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't dislike music. It's a bit like if you're either a football fan or you're not, you're either a Christian or a believer, but

[Ian Dale]

with music, you kind of.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You.

[Ian Dale]

You like one sort of music and not another. You just don't seem to like any music.

[Tessa Dunlop]

My friend said, oh, Tessa. And music. The louder the music, the harder she has to talk to get heard over it.

[Ian Dale]

What a wise friend that is. Please introduce me to them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have. She's the one that bought your lemonade at the party.

[Ian Dale]

Never a truer word spoken. Because I actually did choose my Desert island discs once.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, my God, you are so wonderfully solipsistic.

[Ian Dale]

No, it's because I like lists.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is it? Or is it just, oh, are we all sitting at home thinking, when was it when? Or was it if. When I get invited on desktop?

[Ian Dale]

It was if. This was like 20 years ago and it was when I was doing my original blog and I used to do lots of lists on it and there was one day when there was no news happening at all. So I just thought, oh, well, I'll compile my Desert island disc. So I did, and let's put it this way, the. The choice of songs would not meet the Radio 4 guidelines, probably because there wasn't a single classic. Actually, there was one classical bit among it, but all mine are sort of cheap tat pop.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, give me one. Because you have to choose one ultimately, don't you? This at the end.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, the one that I would. My all time favorite song, which will not surprise you, it's by Cliff Richards and it's called Miss Unite. Do you know that it's a ballad?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think I do know what Cliff Richards like Living Doll and stuff, but I don't know that particular ballot.

[Ian Dale]

It was released in 1975, only got to number 15 in the charts, as it should have been a number one. It was it. When you go home, listen to it and you'll see what I mean. So that was one of them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm so not going to be doing that. By the way, why do we do a podcast together? It's really bizarre, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Have you heard of Big in Japan by Alphaville?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have now.

[Ian Dale]

Ian. Oh, God. The Winner Takes it all by abba.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, yeah, Winner Takes It All. Yeah, I know that.

[Ian Dale]

I remember Pachelbel's Canon, funnily enough.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And you've no idea the pressure that was on me as a young person, because everyone had their cassettes and compilations in my day. And I remember going out when I was working in that orphanage in surrender with a whole bunch of Western people. There was this quite terrifying New Zealand volunteer who was older than us and properly experienced, and we were all dancing in this Turkish restaurant and it was Winner Takes it all. And they were all singing the lyrics and she looked at me and she went, oh my God, you don't know the words. And I was like shriveled up on the floor. Like, she said it in such a dissing way. Honestly, if you didn't embrace the right sort of music, and I'm sure that's probably still the case for teenagers today, it was like curl up and die in a corner. Not only did I sound English in Scotland, but I was tone deaf. Brutal. It means I'm really good at coping with trolling.

[Ian Dale]

My mother had no interest in music whatsoever. I think it was because she must have been tone deaf. See, music is a huge part of my life.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, there you are. It gives me more time for reading

[Ian Dale]

and talking, especially talking and listening.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Time for a break. I hate you.

[Grainger Advertiser]

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you know how many soldiers the Ukrainian military, Russian soldiers, the Ukrainian military believe they have to kill Russian soldiers in order to sufficiently undermine Russia's recruiting capacity. Per month? Per month, 10,000, 50,000. Do you know on average how many Russian soldiers are being killed per month? According to our intelligence services, 10,000, 35,000. It's a dirty, horrific war,

[Ian Dale]

see on its own, 35,000, I mean, it's a bit of a meaningless number, isn't it? But when you add that up over a year, that's nearly half a million people a year. So that's probably close on half a million families that have been affected by this. So it's been going on now for four years. So that means that they've killed somewhere between 1 and 2 million soldiers. So fast, Russian soldiers. And if you think about it, how many people does an average family know? Say it's 50. So there'll be 50 to 100 million Russians that know some a family who's lost a soldier.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They've now prohibited putting flags on fresh graves in Russia because it was drawing too much attention. To the extent the scale of the casualty rate during the USSR, Afghanistan war, after 15,000 casualties, there were protests that had a sincere impact on the Kremlin. It speaks to the ruthless iron grip and that at the moment Putin has on his country, that we haven't seen equivalent protests. But the serious disquiet at top levels in Russia. One of the reasons being this war impacts the elite and their way of life, actually, with the exception of casualty rates, which by the way, impact all tiers of society more than it does the ordinary person. Because the elite could move freely in Europe and America, they could access money freely in Europe and America. They could go on their yachts, they could hang out with their Mandelson friends, they could spend their money at will. And now all those things have been blocked off to them. Their children can't be educated in the west, they can't own football clubs, they're miserable.

[Ian Dale]

If there were protests going on in cities all over Russia, would we know about them?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Doesn't the BBC have the piano playing Steve Rosen?

[Ian Dale]

They do. And a very good man. He is featured on my AllTalk podcast earlier this year. Very successful episode was that was either.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Was. Was I. I think the only person I beat was Nicola Sturgeon, wasn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but you, you were last year, weren't you? Or the year before.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's true. Me and Nick's Yesterday's Women.

[Ian Dale]

Bizarrely, the most popular episode this year has been Daniel Barnett, my LBC colleague, who does the Legal Hour on a Saturday. He was just a surprise disciple.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, that's because you've got probably a lot of crossover from your OBC listeners. Anyway, back to.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, back to. But no, I'm serious, because they've got such a grip on media and Internet in Russia that I'm not sure that we would necessarily know about it unless. Unless Steve Rosenberg found out about it. How would we know?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that we'd have a. Even that. Mr. Nobody versus Putin, that incredible BBC

[Ian Dale]

Storyville, which I still haven't seen.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You must watch that. I think you get an impression or an idea at the moment, very much. There's that sense of people being cowed, but you can't take out that number, that number of young men, the flower of Russia's youth in a country, by the way, with historically low birth rates. So less than two children per woman. We're talking about families losing their only child. In many cases. It's like a grotesque national tragedy. But it also speaks to this extraordinary new form of warfare. So at the beginning of the war, there was a presumption that digital technology would revolutionize things, but nobody was sure in what way. What was fascinating and what is fascinating about this conflict, predominantly being slugged out in the Donbass over thousands of miles, is that you have the trenches From World War I, you have the tank warfare from World War II, and then you have this precision, often cheap to make weaponry that doesn't require human beings to man it. So unmanned weaponry or unmanned systems, drones particularly, and robots, giving you this new, you could argue modeling for a Third World War. And what you'd imagine might happen is there'd be fewer casualties. But you know, Ian, terrifyingly, casualty rates have gone up. In the First World war, for every two to three men injured, you had a dead man. In the Second World War, for every four to five men injured by the time of Afghanistan, every 10 personnel, service people injured, you had one death, one fatality. Because you got your helicopters in, particularly in the Vietnam War, getting them in in the golden hour, taking them out quickly. But now you can't get in to rescue your men because a helicopter goes in, it's swarmed by drones, whether Russian or Ukrainian. So these men are injured, not only men, but mainly men bleeding in muddy trenches, World War I style. And the casualty rate now, for every three to four injured men, one fatality, it's grotesque.

[Ian Dale]

Did you have relations killed in The First World War.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Both my grandfathers in the First World War were medics, and they didn't. I think they didn't die. I don't think either of them died,

[Ian Dale]

no, because my grandmother's brother, so. Who had been my great uncle. Uncle. I don't know. Anyway, he was killed in Belgium 10 days before the end of the First World War. And just think about that. And you think of the generations and the cousins that I've missed out on having.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What.

[Ian Dale]

What his. What he. I mean, he's 19, so young. Clifford Norton was his name. And I've actually dedicated my generals book, which. Which comes out on Thursday, to his memory. And in 2014, my sisters and I took my father to visit his grave in Beak. Anyway, not right in the middle of Belgium. And it was a profoundly moving experience, actually. And they're. I mean, you know, all these Commonwealth War graves, I mean, they're immaculately maintained. And my father. My father was there on his. What do you call them, those motorized little bike things, because he was getting a bit doddery by then. And I'm really glad that we did that because, I mean, obviously my grandmother, she was. She was born in 1894 and died in 1979 when I was 17. And you just think about all of the things that he missed out on. And it does bring home to you the futility of war.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know. Well, when I wrote Lest We Forget, I was really struck by that. One of the. If you go into Harrow School, because of course, the officers took a proportionately greater hit than the soldiers in the Great War. And this extraordinary, extraordinary room, sort of built out of Cromwellian and Elizabethan wood. And it's this relic almost with a light that can never be switched off. And where a woman was, a mother was placed, her pain, her only son, taken out in the First World War a month before the end of it and just couldn't make sense of it. And I'm talking to Helen Lewis, this extraordinary woman whose son died in Afghanistan. That idea of it being grief, being like a room without a door, you can't get out of it, which is why you see extraordinary monumentalization and commemoration to war. But if you think in a country like Russia, Russia, where they're not even allowed to put a flag on a grave. And what is this special military operation? What's it for? So Ukraine and Iran, arguably, hate the regime or not, are fighting existential wars, but what's Russia fighting for? All those men for a bog on the western flank of their country. I mean, okay, bog with minerals, but I suppose you can't ask questions in that country. So.

[Ian Dale]

But Putin has been very successful in essentially selling it as the war that will revive Russia, Russia as a great power. And to an extent, he's achieved that in the sense that although it's diminished their military capability, it's diminished their economy. We're all talking about Russia in a way that we didn't four years ago.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I think recently there was this great hope, I believe, that Russia had that somehow Trump would come in on their side, which he has. Not by enough. He's not actually delivered the peace in a day because even he, when he looked at the map, couldn't hand over great chunks of Ukraine.

[Ian Dale]

No. The fact that he's not sending weapons to Ukraine anymore, or not in large enough quantities anyway, that is a victory for Putin.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes and no. What you see now because of the changed nature of warfare is the 90 billion euro loan that the EU has delivered to Ukraine being converted every single day into 50,000 pound drones that don't just do short range attacks, but long range attacks into the energy infrastructure.

[Ian Dale]

Isn't there 800 miles into Russia?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And. And also these fiber optic drones now, so they're harder to jam because signals jamming is something Russia's very good at. We know our Ministry of Defense, John Healey, apparently had bad insomnia before his plane got jammed. Sorry, shouldn't smile. He was caught, wasn't he? In the cyber warfare crossfire. So that, that's the point is that the Russian bear, the green American giant, are being unstuck by this alternative layer of weaponry. If you think previously once you had air dominance, you could goddamn well do almost what you liked, but now, how do you achieve air dominance if coming in beneath you? You can have thousands of drones. Arguably this is a great thing. This is progress because will China now ever try and invade Taiwan? Because their aircraft would be confronted by a mosquito?

[Ian Dale]

Taiwanean. Taiwanian, Taiwanese. If you were the Taiwanese prime minister, you would be ramping up your spending on drones, wouldn't you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And what's. What we should be doing. Did you know that last month NATO held an exercise in a disused Charing Cross underground station? And in it they replicated the eastern front somewhere along the Baltic coastline. And there were, they had this imaginary thousands of drones and mapping out what was happening in that particular space, Britain would have to be creating, by the way, if we were at war, about a thousand drones a day. At the moment we've got a few hundred and we'd last about a week. Exactly where our spending and our intelligence goes, I don't know. But what's interesting is about Ukraine. One of the reasons why it was able to respond so quickly is ever since 2014, while none of us had really noticed about Crimea being gobbled up by Russia, the Ukrainians had. And they had this kind of smartphone technology. They were weaponizing. They were a step ahead of the game. And there is an irony, isn't there, that all the time now flying into Kiev are NATO leaders, military top blast from Europe and from America, learning off these really whip smart Ukrainian men and women who have basically adapted to drone style warfare because we initially wouldn't give them the missiles and artillery they needed.

[Ian Dale]

And in a way, this comes onto something I want to talk about in a moment on the conflict between needing to do something very quickly in government, but the inability of government to act quickly 100%. So let's talk about that in a minute and we'll have a few words about Lord Mandelson.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We will. But just, just before the break, a little quiz for you because as we discussed at the very top of the show, there was an incursion into NATO territory. Could you tell me the. The name of the Romanian city where the Russian drone landed?

[Ian Dale]

Galatis fail.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Could you tell me the name of the Black Sea city in Romania which removed the Russian consulate in response to the attack? Begins with C. Ovid was banished there during the Roman Empire. Double fail. Could you tell me the name of the Romanian president who called out Russia for the attack? No answers after the break.

[Ian Dale]

Sure. Everyone will have their knickers gripped.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's extraordinary how everyone says I speak about Romania too much on this podcast and yet my podcast partner seems to never have listened.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I do listen, but I can't say the name of the room.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you know what the truth is, Ian? Every single BBC, Telegraph etc broadcast I listened to pronounced the city wrong. Every single one, without exception. And yet there's a million Romanians in Britain.

[Ian Dale]

They could have asked Tessa Dunlop for you to sit there and have the brass neck to complain about people's pronunciation. A beggar's belief, Ian Dale, you've spent

[Tessa Dunlop]

a year calling out my failed pronunciation. This is called retaliation.

[Ian Dale]

The fact is you don't even know the number of times I let it go.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, the city that was attacked. Galatz.

[Ian Dale]

That's what I said.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, you said Galati or Galati or something. Galatz.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I was near enough.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The Black Sea city on the, on the coast. Constanza.

[Ian Dale]

Never heard of it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They all got it wrong. Anyway, the pronunciation of it and the Romanian present is not Dan Nikushaw. Sorry, it's not Dan. They all say. I was about to say, right, his name is Nicosure. But they all say, the BBC journalists and so forth, they say, Dan Nickshaw, it's Nickershaw. Or they get it wrong. Anyway, just take it from me, Corey, don't use that bit in the trail. Dan, Nicole. Piss off, all of you.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, enough about Mandy's back passage. I didn't say that. She did.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You know, I said Ian was leading this.

[Ian Dale]

Now, we're recording this on Thursday afternoon, not long after the latest batch of Mandelson files have been released, and so far there doesn't seem to be a particular smoking gun. It's all very interesting gossip stuff, but. Well, when I'm reading these text exchanges between Mandelson and different ministers, I do have to ask myself, is this really. Does this amount to a sum of beans? What's the phrase? A hill of beans, a row of beans, Something like that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, does this stack up into something worth focusing on?

[Ian Dale]

It's very interesting reading the exchanges between Pat McFadden and Peter Mandelson about Jackie Smith, which. But, I mean, the problem we've got now is that nobody is going to write anything that they think could be used against them in the future. And government ministers do have to have conversations which remain private. We shouldn't. We can't get to a situation where the public is demanding transparency on every single bit of government business because government will grind to a halt.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it's interesting because I would argue that there is no balance at the moment where we want to turn over every pebble in Westminster and number 10. And yet, according to you, in Scotland, the SNP are cruising to a possible another by election win because nobody seems to care about the SMPs. Absolutely extraordinary inability to account for nearly half a million pounds of their party's money. Hello.

[Ian Dale]

Well, since you've been away, Nicola Sturgeon has been doing the round through the Mangle a bit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have her book sales gone up? Up?

[Ian Dale]

I have no idea.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I bet they have.

[Ian Dale]

It's actually a very readable book.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm sure it is. Very sellable too, with all the attention she's getting. But, you know, I did hear on Laura Kloonsberg.

[Ian Dale]

Laura what?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Laura Kunsberg.

[Ian Dale]

Very good, because you did mispronounce it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I just. It slipped out of my tongue wrong. Okay. And. But she's not just been attacked by a Russian drone, but she was slightly attacked by Nicola Sturgeon, who said she was feeling like she had been convicted, although she's on the outside while her husband's serving. Ex husband.

[Ian Dale]

Well she's been, she said she's been convicted for a crime she didn't commit. And I do have sympathy with her on that in that I think she does have questions to answer about her oversight of the party which she was

[Tessa Dunlop]

leading and its finances and questions that were being asked at that time.

[Ian Dale]

But I don't believe she has questions to ask on more. Why didn't you notice that the pendant that your husband bought you from some shop in the Shetlands was sort of paid for by ill gotten gains? Why would she even question it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Do you know this is, do you know what this speaks to the wealth gap?

[Ian Dale]

Because here we go.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, I think it's true. I think it's hard to understand how detached, how quickly people become detached from the way in which most people live. So these are two dinkies.

[Ian Dale]

I genuinely don't think that's the case here.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Dual income, no kids, both earning a lot of money.

[Ian Dale]

Exactly. They were earning together £215,000 a year. So why should she wonder about where he got the money from to buy a Jaguar? Why should she wonder why he was buying two toilet seats or whatever?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I mean chopsticks or.

[Ian Dale]

I mean the, the, the, the, the pepper grinder, they cost two and a half thousand pounds. Well I, I would. If your husband came home with a couple of pepper grinders, would you immediately think, oh, they look very expensive. I wonder if they cost two and a half thousand pounds. Of course you wouldn't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do sometimes price check stuff though, don't you? No, if I get given a face cream or something.

[Ian Dale]

Well, funny enough, I don't get given face cream because I use Nivea for men and it's always done me very well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, well I, I just.

[Ian Dale]

Hasn't it, Tessa?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, you do look great. Obviously very smooth skinned. I just think that we might occasionally go online and price check some goods and I believe that the pendant, she would have probably looked it up online.

[Ian Dale]

Well, no, she knew what that was cuz she, she actually, she said they were in the, in this shop and she said oh that's really nice. And he then went back and bought it for her and then that night he gave it to her and she thought what a lovely thing to do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How much was it worth?

[Ian Dale]

I can't remember.

[Tessa Dunlop]

See, if I'd read that story I'd definitely remember how much it was worth. I think you're more detached. I think you live on their sort of financial level. Well, you do, Ian, and I think I can see how you.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, but I don't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The value of products, I don't.

[Ian Dale]

If John goes out and buys something, unless it's a car, I don't automatically.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But there was a motorhome and a car.

[Ian Dale]

Well, you see, she maintains that she didn't know about the motorhome, that she never saw it, because her explanation is that it wasn't parked in front of her mother in law's house. So when they went there she never saw it. She said it was parked to the side because there was a gap between her mother in law's house and the neighbor's house and the road to the side led up to the garage, so it was parked there. So it's entirely possible that she wouldn't have seen it. But even if she had, his explanation would have been, well, we want it for the election and Covid is happening, so we've got to have a vehicle to get around Scotland in. I mean, you might think that's, that's a bit weird, but it's sort of viable, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. I just think more broadly the lack of scrutiny, including over and above the SMP machine, is hugely problematic. The blurring of her roles and their dual responsibilities within one couple, one dynasty, if you like. Again, very dodgy. I think there's a lot of sadness baked into Nicola Sturgeon. The failed marriage, the lack of children. I think she exhibits, I think, this kind of unspoken female pain. The cost of being a successful female, which is really high still in the 21st century.

[Ian Dale]

And what I was expecting you to say is imagine if it had been the other way around, if it had been the woman that was doing the defrauding and that the husband was sort of bleating that he, how could he be held responsible for it? I think a lot of women would find that completely unbiable. But I mean, I, I completely believe her explanation about the, the different things that he bought. I, I think she feels that she wasted 16 years of her life on a man who's proved to be a criminal.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which is interesting because that again also calls into question her judgment because it was not just her personal judgment, it was also her professional judgment, the executive party, in a way that, for example, because we started talking about Mandelson, Keir Starmein, everyone that's had any connection with Mandelston has been tainted by Mandelston. Yes, I know.

[Ian Dale]

All I'm going to say to you is Galatis, what Constanza.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just going to book my next holiday to Romania. Just going to do that straight after the show. It'll be before I go cruising. Right, right. Okay. So.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that means you can't go into my barbecue then.

[Tessa Dunlop]

There is a. There's a differential. I'm ignoring you there. It's extraordinarily difficult to ignore someone you're recording a podcast with, by the way. This is a sideline. It's just an issue. Okay. But I would say there's a big. There's a chasmic sizeable difference between the way in which we judge and hold to account politicians in the nations and regions relative to the way in which we hold to account those in Westminster. Back to Mandelstand. And, you know, Pat McFadden, your charm, Jackie. Although I noticed it was Angela Smith in the Lords, that he was having a tete a tete about private school fees being a bad idea. Not Jackie. Originally. When I saw that, I thought it was our Jackie, but it wasn't. It was Angela Smith. So many lords and ladies these days. My goodness, Smith.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, how common.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know. Well, that's the problem. If you remove your editory peers. Dear me, what has the Labour Party done to this country? Anyway? The upshot is, is I. I think weirdly, and I don't know if it's because of the Tony Blair intervention or because the economy slightly feels like it's slightly stabilized, but I think that, having said Starmer is a goner three weeks ago, I'm not so sure we are going to see a change of Prime Minister. That's the thing.

[Ian Dale]

And I'm still convinced we are.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Are you? That's fascinating. I'm not convinced any longer.

[Ian Dale]

What I think might, might aid this process is Rupert Lowe, by standing, restore can a restore candidate in the by election. He's going to take probably somewhere between 1 and 5,000 votes off reform. And that could well be enough to let Andy Burnham win.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think the plucky plumber has just gone a step too far. I mean, Carol Vorderman's. I mean, you know, I can't go over that. I mean, I'm no, I'm not a classic reform voter, let's be honest.

[Ian Dale]

Really.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Although half of trade union members we heard today in the news.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we're doing that on the program tonight.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Our reformer.

[Ian Dale]

And I don't think. I don't think that ought to be a surprise to anyone. But the fact it is a surprise to the London metropolitan elite, of which I class you, I think, is quite revealing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You shouldn't. You underestimate me, as do most people in the media establishment. I called out and knew that Brexit was going.

[Ian Dale]

I know you've said that before.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but it's important to remember that. That I'm not just in this metropolitan bubble that the likes of Tony Blair and David Cameron operated in. Actually, I have two feet firmly on the ground and I fully recognize that people believe the rhetoric of the Reform Party, but they don't understand rhetoric, rhetoric. They don't understand the reality on the ground, which is, for example, they would rip up the Equalities Act. So any woman who's thinking of voting reform, hold your horses.

[Ian Dale]

Well, just to add a bit of historical context into this, it shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone that traditional Labour supporters, by which I mean the traditional working classes. The phrase I hate, but people still

[Tessa Dunlop]

use it, and we don't even know what that means anymore anyway, so that's why I hate it.

[Ian Dale]

No, well, quite.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So. What did you mean by it?

[Ian Dale]

Well, if you think back to Enoch Powell's river of blood speech in 1968, who was it marching in support of Enoch Powell? It was the London Dockers. You don't get more working class than London Dockers. Which section of society is most virulent against welfare cheats? It's the working classes. I met on my way in today, I was chatting to David Davis outside and we were talking about this and he was telling me that in a council estate in his constituency. This is years and years ago. It's not, not now. There was one person on a street who was unemployed and the rest of the street decided that this man shouldn't be unemployed. And what business had he claiming? Welfare payments. Because they were paying for them. And I think that is really illustrative of a lot of way, not just people on the traditional right thing, but the way that traditional Labour voters think, because they feel they're the ones that are being ripped off or their reputations are being besmirched by now, as it turns out, this guy was totally legitimately unemployed and had every right to claim benefits. But to think that all of those people should have a natural adherence to the Labour Party when there is an alternative is, I think, a problem for the Labour Party because they've taken those voters for granted for decades. And what they should have done is learn from the lessons of Glasgow, where the Labour Party, the Scottish Labour Party, took Labour votes for granted in Glasgow, made no effort to improve people's lives in Glasgow. And in the last 20 years the SNP have controlled Glasgow City Council because in the end the working classes rebelled.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know what you mean by taking the working class for granted. I don't fully understand. I never know quite how to unpack what that statement means.

[Ian Dale]

That's fairly clear, I would have thought. But you just assume that those people are going to vote for you come what may.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I think that we've seen the same happen in the Conservative Party. That's always.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'm not saying we haven't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Point. Yeah, but. But the idea that you take people for granted, I mean you try and work, don't you, towards your base. You're saying that Tony Blair attacked too far to the middle. He was too sort of shiny and radical. Was he? Is that. Is that your argument? And therefore he left behind or he introduced too many migrants too quickly during the freedom of movement period. I did. I think that is true. Okay, so. So maybe you have a slight point, but what's fascinating about reform is that it's the idea that it's somehow a sheep in wolves clothes or the other way around. Because what you have are these migrants from the Conservative Party, the hard right of the Conservative Party who would like to slash and burn any kind of workers rights which previously trade unionism was built on. Whether that is for example, a new deal that the Labour Party have brought in, the new workers right bill, the minimum wage, whether it's.

[Ian Dale]

I don't think reform of question the minimum wage yet. They may do, but I don't recall them ever saying that that would be up for grab.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, rather we probably don't have a policy. I'd probably stay very quiet on it, but I'd be really interested to know what.

[Ian Dale]

But you're right, a lot of reform voters have come from the right of the Constitution.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Suella Braveham and Robert Jennerick. I mean these aren't people who are pushing hard for workers rights. They're just not looking after the little man or woman. They don't.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, but what you're failing to understand is that reform's vote does not just come from the right and it never has done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I told. I don't fail to understand that. I understand that's fully the case. But what is inexplicable is the way in which Nigel Farage has hoodwinked them because he does silly posts on TikTok and drinks and people think he's a man of the people when we know he's almost a sort of mini Trump in terms of the Elitism and where he's come from.

[Ian Dale]

But that's exactly the same as Harold Wilson. Harold Wilson was an Oxford don and tried to pretend he was working class by smoking a pipe. This is nothing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And he wore a raincoat. Yeah. But actually, Harold Wilson did believe in the working man and improving his lot. And Nigel Farage. I'm really sorry, he doesn't.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you on that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Look at his. Look at his manifesto. It's all about grievance politics. It's all about bashing one set of disadvantages to pitch towards another.

[Ian Dale]

Parties is as well, grievance against rich people.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, not in the same way.

[Ian Dale]

What's the VAT on schools all about?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, that. I thought that was a slightly mealy mouth policy. I mean, arguably mouthed.

[Ian Dale]

It was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was a cash raid. It was a bit of a cash raid. That backfired, I think, in the end, because, I mean, you've. You've what you've got. There are big private employers who drove a lot of investment and a lot of cultural capital. But on the other hand, for too long, you could say we've been governed by people with extraordinary levels of confidence that have been reared in public schools that are detached from the realist use,

[Ian Dale]

which haven't been matched by their levels of competence.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. That concern this country. Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

Well, on that downward note, should we go to a break?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hold your horses. Some rhetoric. Rhetoric. Apparently Nigel Farage has said he would cut the minimum wage for young people. Good.

[Ian Dale]

So it's die break. So we have some questions. By the way, are you coming to my barbecue? You. You weren't particularly interested when I mentioned it to you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that launching one of your many books?

[Ian Dale]

No, at home, at my house.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm coming to that. Yeah. Because that's in my honor, isn't it?

[Ian Dale]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, I thought it was for me. I misunderstood that.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, my God. Not everything is about you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, I know that, Ian. Oh, you sound like a member of my family.

[Ian Dale]

No, you've been badgering me because I've been to your house, so you need to come to mine. Yes, but Corey and Chris and their respective ladies will be coming too.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Nobody says ladies anymore.

[Ian Dale]

I do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's Benny Hill.

[Ian Dale]

It's not.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's so Benny Hill. It is. Ian. It's out of fashion to say only in your mind, pejorative.

[Ian Dale]

It's not pejorative.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It does very much.

[Ian Dale]

It indicates respect.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It doesn't. It suggests you're stuck in a binary world where women meant something Subservient.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I am stuck in a binary world where men are men and women are women. Women. And I'm glad to see that we're streeting believes that too.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, if you come out batting for Wes. How is Wes these days? Is he wishing like hell he hadn't handed over the NHS baton? I bet he's dying of boredom on the backbenches. I'm so pleased, in a way, you know, hubris. Don't get me wrong, I like Wes a lot and I think he's got much going for him and he's young enough to be able to come at it again in the next decade. But he ain't going to be the leader of the Labour Party, is he, in the next?

[Ian Dale]

I think it's possible, but not probably.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Bubble. Yeah. Listen, I've got a question from Connor on Neets. The Neats discussion didn't go down well at home. When I got back, I decided, fired up by Andrew Allen Milburn's discovery, which I could have told him ages ago, that actually, children need to work, have gainful employment, pound, shillings and pence for a couple of hours work, even if it's just what was once a paper round. An equivalent from an early age is essential, and it's what we're lacking. I came home full of. Of fire and brimstone and told my eldest daughter that it wasn't good enough just to do exams this summer. What was she doing? What had she planned in terms of work? Not work experience, but work over the summer. Because when I was her age, in the. What we would have then called Lower Sixth, I went to York because I couldn't get any work in a Highland village. And I worked in a cafeteria. Cafeteria or whatever it's called. I think I lodged with my uncle and I served coffees all summer long. Yes. And it was terribly dull after about the first day, because the novelty, you know, the first day or two. And I also remember that the Greek owners of the cafe, both of the sons, accosted me in the staff room. Both of them stuck their big slug tongues in my mouth. That's what us girls had to put up with all the time at that stage in life. Fifteen years old, I was with this big Greek man sticking his tongue in my mouth, yeah, Groping me over the staff table. So I had to wriggle away and make another cappuccino. It's probably paid about 2 pounds 50. And obviously I didn't tell my mom, because there's only one thing worse than being subjected to a Great big tongue in my mouth. And that was going back to Rannock and being subjected to a summer with my brothers fly fishing.

[Ian Dale]

I mean in all seriousness though, in your teenage years, I mean how often did that sort of thing happen?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that remembering that where you're kind of confused, one of them was quite good looking. So there's two brothers, these Greek brothers and that that were they oh old. They were grown up, they were like in their 20s. But that kind of confusion as to what, what one's response should be. And I often remember talking to veterans who served in World War II and I write about this in Army Girls actually, actually about the kind of need to be able to repel a man which was very much seen as a woman's role in the war because they couldn't get pregnant. And it was up to the women and it was seen that higher class self possessed women would feel able to say no and repel a man because most men, of course not all men, many men will go on and rape and not heed consent. But most men, if you make it really clear, no will to get the message. What I found was the conflict there was the flattery of being desired was the fact that they were my bosses, they were employing me, fact that I was alone at the same time as knowing I didn't want it to continue. So when to kind of without offending them how you wriggle away from their clutches literally. And I think that that is something that very much preoccupied my generation. Whereas Mara's generation would be far, far

[Ian Dale]

quicker to call it just kick him in the balls.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Kick them in the balls. Yeah, yeah, she would kick them in the balls. And also because it's kind of vogue now to be a neat so if meant he had no job but you know, but you could virtue signal, you could put it on Instagram.

[Ian Dale]

So anyway, what's she going to do?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well that's the thing I said last night that she couldn't come down to supper until she had. I shouldn't be sharing this. She said I'm not to share more of her life on the pod. But anyway, there was a red line placed in the sand. Yeah, there was. It's no good just being brainy.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah but was that a real red line or an Obama red line? It was just to add a little bit of history into the anecdote.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well he let Syria down and I feel that I would be strongly defending Syria.

[Ian Dale]

Right. Did you actually ask a question?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I haven't asked a question yet. I've got One from Connor on Neets. Hi both very much enjoyed your discussion on Neets in the recent episode. Wanted to add some thoughts as someone who has managed to receive an offer for a graduate job. Having completed a BA from Cambridge and an MSc, the Institute of Student Employers reported that in 2024 there were over 1.2 million applications for just under 17,000 gradu jobs. This shows just how hard it is for those who are actively pursuing a job to find one. As with most things, what is needed is carrot and stick approach to this issue. The lack of meaningful job opportunities serves as no carrot while a generous benefit system provides no stick for those who brackets, intentionally or not, are classified as a neet. While there is much talk about tightening the benefit system, less is said on the side of job availability. What do you both think can be done to provide job opportunities to those who are actively looking? All the best, Connor.

[Ian Dale]

Well, first of all, congratulations, Conor, but I think those figures are very suspect.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't, actually, I don't.

[Ian Dale]

Given that there are around half a million graduates every year. He's saying there are a million applications there.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, because there's a whole cohort of graduates.

[Ian Dale]

17,000 jobs. I'm sorry, but I don't know what that figure's based on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

On. He sent the link from the Institute of Student employers. More than 1 million graduate job applications set new record. So that is the average employer receives 140 applications per graduate job. That's a 59% increase on the previous year.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we're going to risk repeating the discussion that we had. I think it was sometime last week where graduates employment has always been an issue to one extent or another and there have been sort of peaks and troughs in, in the second half of the 1980s, graduate unemployment was very high. You look at it after the world financial crash, I mean we're still in the after effects of COVID so I'm not massively surprised. But I think what's happening now to add to it of course is the AI revolution and it's not. I don't see, I don't see a point in the next five years where we're going to think that graduate employment is no longer an issue because I think it's only going to get worse, I'm afraid. So what do you do in those circumstances? I mean, I'd like to think that a lot of people who count themselves among those that cohort would actually think, well, you know, the way out of this is for me to start my own business.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh come on. Ian. What? Going from duvet diving and doom scrolling to starting your own business. That's a very small percentage.

[Ian Dale]

It may well be. No, I think, I don't think we have an economy where the conditions exist for people to take risks like that in the way that they might have done 20 or 30 years ago.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, we could look and we won't because our country doesn't ever embrace conscription. Historically we never have, for all sorts of reasons that we've talked about before. But if you look at many countries, especially the Scandinavian countries, which do particularly well in terms of youth employment, they have conscription, not for the whole country, but you have to prove your match fit and then you're selected and it's seen as something aspirational. In Norway, 17% of 18 to 19 year olds serve.

[Ian Dale]

And they're not graduates.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but some of them are graduates. It depends. Some of them go on, you know, that's when they're recruited as seven, as 18 to 19. But depending, you know what your skill set is. But if you had something like that, that where there's a golden benchmark and actually Rishi Sunak, in his desperate hour prior to him losing the election, comprehensively floated that idea of kind of community service and or military service. It was really ill thought through. But rather than pay these kids, I presume they're getting some form of benefit, wouldn't it be better to put money in them doing voluntary work or requiring.

[Ian Dale]

I agree, but the fact that you've yourself, as you have used the word conscription, people assume therefore that it's military and that's what they assumed. And you're right, it wasn't well thought out by Sunak when he announced it. But there is a good idea there somewhere. But if the media just latch onto it and call it conscription, then don't be surprised that people won't want to take part in it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Except it's seen as a golden badge in countries like Norway, seen as a massive compliment to get selected. In fact, the Norwegian prince, princess, second in line to the throne has just been selected and the king is awfully proud.

[Ian Dale]

I'm sure he is. Another question on Neets here from Brian Sage, who you may remember, is not your biggest fan.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, but I don't. I tend to forget those who don't like me.

[Ian Dale]

Hi, chaps. Odd that Teresa, as he calls you, is obsessed by linguistics when any long word is mispronounced and doesn't even know what Sweet Brits.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Where did the bomb fall in Romania? Where did the drone.

[Ian Dale]

Galata. I feel for the Neets. But remember that they voted in droves for the ill prepared, ill experienced, totally clueless socialist government that through increases in minimum wage and employers, NI has destroyed virtually all entry level jobs. She needn't worry about Now, I don't really understand this phrase, but maybe you do. She needn't worry about Masai Mara getting into Oxford as she is the daughter of a well known socialist historian with Royal correspondent pretensions.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's a wanker, this guy.

[Ian Dale]

Odd that the girl is named after a volcanic crater in Africa, but so many kids these days are named after the place where they were conceived.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Brian spent a long time crafting the email. I think he has a secret crush on me.

[Ian Dale]

I think he does about the daft idea of GCSE Romanian. Please let her know that 40% of Romanians speak English. 95% of Romanians are learning English from primary school onwards. And English dominates the curriculum as the first foreign language. And of course, English is the first language of her beloved eu. Question as we trained Mark Carney by giving him an entry level job at the bank of England. Should we now ask him to come back to run the uk? He's the only politician who makes sense. Thank you for all that Corey lets you do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's interesting, isn't it? It's a fan of Carney and so am I. So we do have somewhere converging interests. It's extraordinary to me that people believe, believe learning English is somehow a substitute for their own heritage language. Especially when it's a Latin language and a gateway to learning so many others. And it gives you an understanding of your own country's culture and writers and history. Why wouldn't you want that? For people who have migrated to this country in their droves, work hard and are keen to. To embrace the English system, why wouldn't you allow them to expand their critical thinking and to recognize an additional skill that they have? I don't understand people's issue with providing the GCSE rota with an extra qualification when we've got so many others like Japanese and Biblical Hebrew. I just. I just don't get the resistance to it. It's not going to cost anything and all it does is incentivize children to hold on to another skill set, another ability, which is what we're meant to be doing, skilling up our young people. I've got one more question. Hey, Destiny. Just a little request from me. I appreciate you don't like Andy Barnum. I respectfully disagree with you about that. He's done a lot of good work on Hillsborough, which is something close to my and my community's heart. Can I ask you also to do a bit of a deep dive on the candidate who is very closely second behind him, Robert Kenyon. He said some things that, as a woman, actually make me feel quite unsafe. I've included a screenshot and actually, I thought she was going to the crowd of Alderman1, but I. Screenshot is Reform UK's Make a Field by election candidate Robert Kenyon previously came Women can't drive and get abortions for vanity purposes to shag anyone they want. He admitted, quote, I'm sexist. Sorry, but I am. That goes back to trade union members. Voting reform. That is the kind of candidate that they want to endorse.

[Ian Dale]

Can I. Can I gently question the use of the word unsafe there?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, because he's been sexist and doesn't like women drivers and makes assertions about women having abortions. How does that make someone feel unsafe?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, it does, because it's the tone. Because what you do is you set a benchmark. We've seen it with racist attacks going up in the wake of the coarsening of the political and public discourse in the wake of Brexit. Actually, when you lower the public bar, you also then lower staff standards all round. And you see what I know you hate being referred to as toxic masculinity being meted out not just online, but actually in a very real and visceral sense, behind closed doors, on streets, in schoolyards. Will we end the pod here?

[Ian Dale]

I think we might. Because whatever I say here is now going to be misinterpreted, not least by you. You're holding up your book, which is called Lest We Forget. Why?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Lest We Forget? I won that debate. And my book's 99p on Kindle.

[Ian Dale]

And my book the Generals is out on Thursday. And every. If every person who is an avid listener of the podcast bought the book, it would get into the Sunday Times top 10 bestsellers. And I'll be a car boot in Ipswich if anyone wants to come by and buy my.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Corey.

[Ian Dale]

Corey. I used to regard Corey as a very loyal person.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's over you, but he.

[Ian Dale]

He's. I think he is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You know, it's a year of me peddling mischief behind the back.

[Ian Dale]

Exactly.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Undermining you, Ian. Undermining your brand. Corey used to be a young. A fan with big, wide eyes.

[Ian Dale]

No, the mistake I made with Corey was teaching him how to play hardball. And now he plays it with me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And me. Sometimes I don't think he likes either of us. Fucker. Let's exterminate him. Love to you all. Bye. This has been a Global Player original production.