131. It Musk Be Love

Summary

Where Politics Meets History — Episode 131: "It Musk Be Love"

Date: June 5, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale and Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Iain and Tessa dissect the week’s major political news through a historical lens, with their signature blend of wit, candid disagreements, and sharp analysis. They focus on the political fallout from the Henry Novak murder, the language of rage in politics (especially in the context of Nigel Farage), the growing influence of figures like Elon Musk on UK democracy, and then take a deep dive into the origins of Canada and what the UK could learn from the "Canadian model". Listener questions wrap up the episode, touching on topics from gendered language to crumbling infrastructure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Farage, Rage, and the Politics of Language (00:32–08:06; 17:41–25:51)

• Tessa’s Critique of Farage: Tessa opens with strong concerns about Nigel Farage’s language in the aftermath of the Henry Novak case, labeling it "the personification of dog whistle. Politics in a suit." (00:32) She expresses particular discomfort with Farage's call for "pure cold rage," suggesting words can incite real-world violence.
• Iain’s Counterpoint: Iain argues Tessa is “using this as an excuse to reinforce your own prejudices against him,” maintaining that Farage’s record is long-standing but suggesting the media may have over-amplified the incident (00:48, 18:03). He describes the critical difference between urging an emotional response and failing to condemn violence, emphasizing the latter as Farage’s gravest misstep.
• Newsnight & Misquote Incident: Both discuss the fallout from a BBC misquote, where “pure cold rage” was misreported as “white cold rage,” demanding an apology and full retraction. Iain notes the escalated sensitivity around language in politics today (18:37).
• Debate on Responsibility: The hosts clash over how much responsibility Farage holds for public unrest, Tessa stating, “He throws the baton to Robinson over the barricade, knowing fine Robinson will run into the flames,” accusing Farage of knowing provocation (22:11).

Notable Quotes

• "What Nigel Farage does is with his super middle class credentials, public school boy, banker, wanka protest." —Tessa (22:07)
• "He has gone against the wishes of the parents here… Deliberately, Ian. Deliberately." —Tessa (23:25)
• "We need to wait until the IOPC issues its report and then debate it in a calm way." —Iain (23:28)

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2. Elon Musk, Social Media, and Democracy (25:51–31:12)

• Algorithmic Patronage: Tessa and Iain discuss Rupert Lowe (Restore Party) and how his posts are amplified by Elon Musk, with Musk's reposts giving Lowe more traction than Farage despite fewer followers (29:57). Tessa calls this "algorithmic patronage," ominously highlighting the threat to democratic stability.
• Foreign Influence: Tessa warns of “Elon Musk amplifying Rupert Lowe’s campaign” and fears this outside digital influence will shift political outcomes—including potentially splitting the right and benefiting Labour in key contests (25:51).
• Musk’s Contradictory Role: They note the complexity of Musk’s influence—both supporting Ukrainian war efforts with Starlink while meddling in domestic UK politics—“He’s a big player… Can they afford to ignore each other?” (29:37).
• Money and Politics: Conversation expands to the costs of campaigning and how large donations (like Reform’s £9 million) are altering the landscape (27:47).

Notable Quotes

• "It’s what’s known as algorithmic patronage and it’s all important in democracy. It’s terrifying." —Tessa (29:57)
• "He could be the person that delivers another Labour government in 2028, 2029." —Iain (31:10)

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3. The Canadian Model: Lessons from History (31:49–46:22)

• Why Canada, Not America? Tessa wants Britain to look toward Canada’s blend of moderation and collective social contract versus the US's rugged individualism. She paraphrases Mark Carney, “We know the old order is not coming back… Nostalgia is not a strategy.” (32:52)
• Canada’s Founding Values: Tessa describes the “peace, order and good government” motto and stresses Canada’s difference as “pragmatism, decency, moderation, and orderliness," contrasting with American self-focus (36:16).
• Model of Devolution & National Strength: She advocates that Canada’s model of managed devolution allowed for collective nation-building despite its vast size, diverse languages, and proximity to a superpower.
• British Arrogance & Learning from Others: Tessa contends that post-Brexit Britain could learn much from Canada’s intentional infrastructure investment and economic nationalism (42:28).
• The Monarchy Issue: Iain brings up how Canada retains the British monarch as head of state, musing on national identity and the pragmatic reasons for this connection (44:16).

Notable Quotes

• "...peace, order and good governance. Compared to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One is the collective, the other is the individual. Which one would you want to model yourself on?" —Tessa (36:21)
• "Canada had to act in a collective capacity—the Confederation as it was known—to stave off America." —Tessa (37:31)
• "Canada is an inspirational multinational, highly sophisticated, high performing democracy and we not only should lean into it, but learn from it." —Tessa (41:48)

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4. Listener Questions: Language, Infrastructure, & More (46:22–End)

• Gendered Language: A listener, Nicky Larkin, asks whether celebrating “ladies” in business is outdated. Tessa and Iain discuss DEI, persistent gender barriers, and shifting norms (46:22).
• Predictions for the Summer: Both agree the Manchester by-election and Labour leadership (“who will lead the country from the autumn onwards”) will dominate the news cycle (47:45).
• Infrastructure, Potholes, & National Humour: Potholes become a metaphor for Britain’s outdated infrastructure, linked to Tessa’s earlier Canadian praise and a French jibe that “Britain has more potholes than France” (50:05).
• Engaged Community: The mailbag closes with playful comments from listeners about language, history resources, and recurring listeners—highlighting the camaraderie and banter that define the show (53:30–end).

Memorable Exchange

• "Cut off your penis, right?" —Tessa, jokingly, challenging Iain’s male authority on facts (49:31)
• "Please send your questions to where politics meetshistory. That's the Instagram. And I filter hard. Oh, yeah, just read out the ones I like." —Tessa (56:38)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:32–08:06: Farage’s language, identity, and historical lens
• 17:41–25:51: The Novak murder, Farage fallout, and social unrest
• 25:51–31:12: Musk, Rupert Lowe, algorithmic power, and British campaign finance
• 31:49–46:22: A history of Canada and UK lessons from Canadian nation-building
• 46:22– END: Listener mailbag—language, predictions, infrastructure, gender, and podcast banter

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Memorable Moments & Dynamics

• Running Joke: Tessa consistently teases Iain about his male-centric reading of facts, his “new” book, and his approach to friendship with politicians (“You’re such a broad church, Ian!” 14:31)
• Self-References: Iain is goaded for plugging his 600-page generals book ("It's £30 in hardback—shut up," quips Tessa, 17:37).
• Meta-podcast Chatter: The chemistry and cutting jokes between host and co-host, a new female producer ("if it’s smoother, it’s Lauren"), and their fan correspondence give the episode warmth and relatability.

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Tone & Style

Clever, irreverent, and unsparingly candid. Tessa’s acute historical analogies and political provocations balance Iain’s more measured, sometimes skeptical, pragmatism. The episode is rich with banter, sharp asides, and moments of real disagreement—all in a tone equal parts learned and personable.

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For New Listeners

This episode delivers an illuminating parallel between past and present, spiced up with real-time political events and debates on how language, history, and external tech giants shape democracy. You’ll get a hefty dose of back-and-forth sparring, practical historical insight, and a feeling of being in on a fast-moving, well-informed conversation.

Transcript

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[Tessa Dunlop]

This is a global Player original podcast. I have a real issue with the language that Farage used. The personification of dog whistle. Politics in a suit. How does rage manifest in many individuals? It manifests in physical acts, in protests.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that may be, but I think you're using this as an excuse to reinforce your own prejudices against him. He's got a long standing record on this. Welcome to the end of week where politics meets history with me, Ian Dale

[Tessa Dunlop]

and she, Tessa Dunlop. I'm so busy today, I've got a lot going on in my brain.

[Ian Dale]

You've been to lunch at a very posh restaurant. Actually, I have too, but not as posh as the one you've been to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, and I was trying to ingest the very expensive pudding at Rules.

[Ian Dale]

What did you have?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oldest continuous restaurant in Britain, Continental. Can you tell me what year it was founded?

[Ian Dale]

Something like 1784.

[Tessa Dunlop]

1798.

[Ian Dale]

That wasn't bad, was it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

What was going on at the time?

[Ian Dale]

1798, William Pitt the Younger was Prime Minister.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Big international event.

[Ian Dale]

Big international.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Britain.

[Ian Dale]

A war. The War of Spanish Succession.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it's the year Napoleon opened his campaign in Egypt.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, was it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, it's kind of moving into serious Napoleonic territory when we're constantly fighting.

[Ian Dale]

We soon saw him off though, didn't we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, it took a while, actually.

[Ian Dale]

It did take a while, but, yeah,

[Tessa Dunlop]

nearly another 20 years.

[Ian Dale]

We got there in the end and

[Tessa Dunlop]

it arguably it wouldn't have been a brilliant time to open a restaurant, an oyster bar in Covent Garden, to be more specific. But Thomas Rule went ahead with it anyway and soon he was attracting all the Randy's rakes. The Randy's?

[Ian Dale]

No, do you not mean dandies? I was gonna say they probably were Randy as well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Loads of Randy's, because actually there's a special window seat. But Edwards went. Had dinner with Lily Lang.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you're absolutely right. But that word has fallen into disuse, hasn't it, in this country now where you very rare ever hear it? Whereas in my childhood it was used a lot.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'M trying to think which category we fell into today. I'm going to quote Rakes, Dandies and Superior Intelligences.

[Ian Dale]

Well, definitely not the latter.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I was actually thinking it is the

[Ian Dale]

latter because you'd like to think so, given that you have a doctorate.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And it was the 70th birthday party of my PhD supervisor's wife. And you've never sat in a more qualified room. There was emeritus professors, former obstetricians. I spoke to a pediatrician who retired. He's 85. He retired in something like 2001 or 2002. I worked out that he was 60 when he was retired. He has a great life. They live in the national park up in Yorkshire. They go on walking holidays in Copenhagen for weeks on end. They have expensive lunches in Rules. And I said, so hang on a minute, you've been retired from the age of 60? He said, yes. And at the time, there was considerable research that showed if you worked for another five years, you were only likely to live then another three years, whereas if you retired at 60, you live for another 20 years. And I said, economically, forgive me for pointing this out, we'd all be quids in if you just retired a bit later and died a bit sooner.

[Ian Dale]

You do know how to make friends and influence people, don't you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, it's okay. Then I got stuck into pudding.

[Ian Dale]

I. I've been to Rules a couple of times over the years. I think the first time I was probably late 1980s, and I suspect it hasn't changed at all.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, having never been to Rules before, the oldest continuous restaurant in London. But I did get my husband to film me walking up and I don't know if I'm going to post it because it gave me a visible panty liner.

[Ian Dale]

You went to a lunch with your husband?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, because he likes. Bloody hell, weirdly. And I think that's being foreign, or maybe just Dan being Romanian, he loves what I call genteel, civilized, extreme Englishness. Does that make sense?

[Ian Dale]

Well, you can't get more extreme English than that place.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And interestingly, actually, Valerie is a British Jew and I was sitting next to her delightful first cousin, Prue. And, you know me being me, I'd taken from the pediatrician. We've managed to do the journey.

[Ian Dale]

You had managed to not call a paedophile. Do you remember. Do you remember all those vigilante things in Portsmouth years ago where these vigilantes. I can't remember what had happened. There'd been some big pedophile scandal and pediatricians were being attacked in their homes because people didn't understand the difference between what a paediatrician is and a paedophile.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, thank you for presupposing that. I'd be one of those people who turned around and not only accused him of economically ripping the country.

[Ian Dale]

You know what you're like. You know what you're like, Tessa.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, then I said to pre, could you, you know, talk to me? And both her and her husband were really interesting on this, on her British Jewish woman, originally heritage three generations ago from Eastern Europe. Talk to me about your if only I mental identity or relationship with Israel. And both of them went, well, that's a difficult question. But we had this really fascinating discussion and where I think it was helpful, they both said, it's less with the land and more with the state. And then they explained that from the point of view of so many British Jews, it's actually because most of them have relatives and friends there. So it is automatically personal, whether you go way back when to the Bible or not. It's actually my first cousin lives in Tel Aviv.

[Ian Dale]

And it's also personal because, of course, it is the last place of refuge for any Jew. Any Jew throughout the world can go and live in Israel, no questions asked.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And it was about the establishment of the Jewish state. But it did make me think, it's a bit like I feel closer, I think. And I've had accusations of this leveled at me on my Instagram where people say, why aren't you more vociferous on other wars? Why do you prioritize Ukraine? I would say arguably because it's the greater existential crisis from a European point of view. But also it's because I look at my Moldovan mother in law and she's genetically a rizzler paper away from the Ukrainians who are getting bombed. And actually, the Ukrainian front line is also the Republic of Moldova's front line.

[Ian Dale]

I follow someone on Instagram called Kilan K A E L A N. He's a young journalist, probably, I don't know, 23, 25 maybe, and he does investigative reports. He spent the last four months in Ukraine. And honestly, it's the most brilliant journalism. And he is now back in Ireland and he's discovered this massive aluminium plant, or aluminum, if you're of that persuasion, on the west coast of Ireland in some little village that nobody's ever heard of, and it is producing aluminium and it's being shipped to Russia every single week through the English Channel, up through the Baltics and being used to manufacture weapons for the Russian war in ukra. He thinks this is an outrage. He can't get any Irish politicians to take it seriously. And he's done some brilliant reporting on it. I'm hoping to get him on my program tonight because I think this needs to. Needs a really much wider airing. So give him a follow on x or Instagram. KeelanReports is his handle.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Might this be the very same Instagram reel that I have also watched? And the same Ireland that spends 1% of its GDP on defense allows Poland

[Ian Dale]

to do all the heavy things that it's neutral.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And that's where ultimately the fault line of the EU project, I think, will fall in the future. Increasingly, they're going to have to walk towards defence because we see NATO's now become this contested entity. And actually, how can you have a coherent defensive policy when you've got a mouth that speaks in two different directions? Because of the sheer size and nature, disparate nature of the European project.

[Ian Dale]

Just to tell people what we're going to be talking about in this podcast, well done. We're obviously going to be talking about the developments in the tragic Henry Novak murder. We're also going to talk about the origins of Canada, which you said you wanted to talk about today. And I thought, I don't really know what the origins of Canada are, so I'm going to be as interested as our listeners in that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I hope you're interested. I think it's analogous with my seemingly pointless little brother suddenly becoming an msp. You know, seemingly pointless calendar.

[Ian Dale]

I can't say seemingly pointless.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, he knows I'm saying it lovingly because I'm about to move on to him in just one second. But a seemingly pointless Canada, suddenly, whoa. Mark Carney's striding the international stage like a colossus and Little Britain is sort of shrinking under the duvet, trembling with Kirstama slightly. Ian. I think we do need to look far harder at the Canadian model and see what nowadays we can learn from it. Just because you flagged up Instagram. I was talking to Duncan and he did his maiden speech in Holyrood and he said, I'm not going to listen to any more of your podcasts until you listen to my maiden speech. I've listened to 124 hours of your podcast. I thought, I'm sure there's better ways.

[Ian Dale]

That ought to disqualify him from the Scottish Parliament. Really, didn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's what I thought anyway. He said, what did you think? I said, oh, you're so Wrong. I said, I've watched it. He said, it's only six minutes. I've listened to 124 hours. It was only a six minute maiden speech, which he learned off by heart. And it was focused.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, and I always admire people that do that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You should know that. But I'll explain why you don't fully know that in a minute to the listener.

[Ian Dale]

By the way, Corey is off today. You won't know this, but yesterday. Was it yesterday or the day before? Corey messaged me to say, I'm feeling really, really ill. I said, well, don't come into work, then. Oh, no, I've got to, because I'm going on holiday the next day and people think I'm shirking. I said, no, they won't, because everyone knows you, Cory. You're not a shirk.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do too.

[Ian Dale]

You're very hard worker. Anyway, he did come into work and we sent him home again after about a couple of hours. And so. Do you want to know where he is? The least likely place that you can ever think that Corey Froggart would appear at Copenhagen. No, it's. Well, he's got. He's gone to Barcelona. Why has he gone to Barcelona, Tessa?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't know.

[Ian Dale]

He's going to a rave.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's a bit weird for a man who wears Cordroy and studied linguistics at Cambridge. You've interrupted my train of thought. I do want to flag up Hashtag. This is the first time we've had a female producer, so if it's more

[Ian Dale]

smooth than usual, it's the lovely Lauren who's come to us. How long have you been with us, Lauren? At lbc? A year. Next week. She came from Times Radio.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She's already printed off my notes twice and I like her very much. Can we get back now to my thesis on your Instagram intersecting with my little brother's maiden speech? She said, it's only six minutes. I've listened to a whole 124 hours of you. I said, not only have I watched you off by heart speaking about children in care, the subject of these first debates in the House is always quite broad to give new MSPs a chance to speak to their subject. It was about ambitions for Scotland. Obviously, the anticipation was good. Constitutional lines. Duncan isn't particularly interested in the Constitution, certainly doesn't want independence. So he spoke to children in care and he got, you know, some people on Twitter said it was the best speech they'd ever heard. I did. I did. We're going to come to Twitter by the way and the interference of Twitter in our electoral system that's related to the Henry's tragic murder. But I said, well, not only did I watch it, but so did Michelle, my American media trainer friend. And Ian Dale watched one minute of it. I said, which speaks to today's attention span. You might want to curate speeches so they're not six minutes, but one and a half minutes. But anyway, I should flag up that it was very well received north of the border. And Duncan said that's good because I won't be learning another one off by heart.

[Ian Dale]

The thing is though, there is a difference between learning things off by heart and just being able to stand up and give a speech which you haven't written down. You just go ahead and do it. That's the most difficult.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you need to learn them off by heart until you're ready to do that.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So he's doing the right thing that

[Ian Dale]

you know, I don't. I very rarely. I can't learn speech off by heart because I can't memorize. So I brackets.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because he's a lazy bastard.

[Ian Dale]

No, I just don't have the kind of brain. It's why I've never done acting because I would have loved to have done acting but I can't memorize lines. So I either have a full written text which if I'm doing a lecture, I will read from a text, but I can do it in a way that people don't really realize I'm doing it. But generally I now only give speeches on subjects I know something about, so I'll just go and do it off the cuff.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that in five years time one assumes he will be able to do that. But early on in your virgin speech, I think you can be forgiven for either reading it or learning it off by heart. However, he and another friend, Oliver, both have picked issue with your unadulterated lack of criticism for Nicola Sturgeon. I said to Duncan by means of an excuse, we're not going to go down that Sturgeon rabbit hole again because we've covered her extensive. That I said on a personal level you liked her and respected her. To which he responded, eh, she was a control freak who was a poor relation to the talent that was salmon, good at communication but not action, couldn't deliver as had never had a real job. Her judgment was awful and blind to criticism.

[Ian Dale]

That doesn't stop you from being able to like somebody.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that also you're.

[Ian Dale]

I mean even if I agreed with all of that and I agree with some of it, but not all of it. If I want to have a friend, it's because I like them and I don't necessarily have to agree with them. I don't have to approve of what they've done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but I think your affection for her veered into a failure to criticize her. Here is another example of a text I've received. Listen to your pod. And couldn't quite believe the benefit of doubt Ian Dale gave to Nicola Sturgeon. Gargantuan levels that actually made him sound hopelessly naive or more likely, too close to these politicians.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I'm not close to her. I've only met her probably four or five times. I genuinely like her. I don't see why this is seen as a human failing on my part, that I kind of can like people that other people don't like.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Ian, you're just so inclusive. You're such a broad church.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And I think that's. I think that's a strength indeed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I was talking about your many strengths with that other political friend of mine, Gareth Thomas.

[Ian Dale]

It's okay for you to have political friends, mp, when they can do things that you want them to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Labour MP for Harrow West. He used to be in government in the Blair Brown years. And I said to him, again, the idea of reshuffling and getting a new Prime Minister, I said, I can't be doing with it. It's time consuming and it's not what we voted for. And he then made a sort of salient point on the power of Tony Blair, even if you found him reprehensible. And that was he could speak to national pain and he could tell a story. Story. And he didn't say it, but basically he was inferring that's what Starmer doesn't have and therefore you've got to do something about it.

[Ian Dale]

We've talked about that a lot before we go on to the main meat of the podcast and I'd like to you not to roll your eyes and tut at this, but today is an important day because my latest book is published. Stop it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm not rolling my eyes, I'm sniggering.

[Ian Dale]

You see, people often ask, why are you friends with Tessa? Because she's horrible to you and that. And you are horrible to me because I'm actually really proud of this book.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The Ian said, have you seen the COVID to my. My new book? And I said, do you know, I might have flicked over it and given it a cursory. Like on Instagram. Does it by Any chance have a cover that pertains to a Gilly Cooper novel akin to Ryder's?

[Ian Dale]

Well, it does have the Duke of Wellington on a horse.

[Tessa Dunlop]

His thigh.

[Ian Dale]

It does, yes, you're right. With a little bit of a view of his side knackers.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Was he a rake or a dandy? He was certainly the sexual.

[Ian Dale]

I'd say he was a bit of a rake.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Personally Sexual swordsman of Europe, apparently. Only person he didn't poke was his wife.

[Ian Dale]

Lauren just interrupted in my ear and said, break soon, which was a little bit too assertive for my liking.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's do what she says. No.

[Ian Dale]

Well, actually, he used to, didn't he? Corey used to intervene, but he's given up now.

[Tessa Dunlop]

If Lauren thinks it's time for a break. No, Lauren, don't give up.

[Ian Dale]

I was saying it out of love, not criticism. No, but just to say, this book, it's 600 pages long.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, God. Like this podcast, when you get your.

[Ian Dale]

I haven't written a word of it, apart from the preface and it's profiles 69 different generals going back through from Sun Shu. I don't know how to pronounce that up to David Petraeus and shut up. I hope everyone who enjoys my contribution to this podcast and abhors Tessa's innate rudeness and unfriendliness will go out and buy this book, which you can do. So if you want a signed copy, I can even personally inscribe it to you. Good. Present for your dad or your granddad for Christmas.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, that's so gendered, by the way. Please. Did you notice that Lauren asked for a break as soon as you started talking about your book?

[Ian Dale]

She didn't mean anything by it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's a break now, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

It's £30 in hardback.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Shut up.

[Ian Dale]

I hate you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Good. Quite extraordinary, isn't it, that after this appalling murder and the conviction of his murderer, Henry Novak has become the secondary story and the policing of his murder to the Nigel Farage Ferrari.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, I think that is interesting. And there is part of me that thinks that the media in general are a little bit to blame. Apart from Nigel Farage himself being to blame. I do think the media are slightly to blame here for ramping it up beyond possibly what it merited. But we can't get away from the fact that Nigel Farage used what I think is fairly incendiary language. He got very upset when Matt Chorley misquoted him on Newsnight about this rage comment.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Basically, Farage gets up early for a heavily curated news conference. The morning after the video's been released. And he talks to the measured and extraordinary response of the parents of Henry,

[Ian Dale]

who I think he'd spoken to, perhaps.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And then he effectively pushes their agenda and wishes to one side and says, but actually we should be responding with, and I quote, pure cold rage to a murder under the eyes of the police, etc. And Newsnight misquoted him with the words white, cold rage, for which they then led their subsequent broadcast with an apology. Led it. And also removed the entirety of the previous night's broadcast from Iplayer.

[Ian Dale]

And Victoria Derbyshire did it on Twitter as well. I got a message from my boss this morning to say like a word at 4:00 this afternoon. And I thought, oh, God, what did I say last night, sort of on the program about this? Because I did, I addressed this subject, but I did. But I remember saying that it was his words following that that I thought that were the problem where he didn't condemn the violence in Southampton that had taken place on Tuesday night. And I do remember saying, look, I don't have a problem with him saying sort of the. What was it? Cold hard rage. Because I said, I think most people feel that way, but if you put the word white in there, you can understand why he and Reform would have been very sensitive to that. So I'm not sure I think that Newsnight needed to give it the prominence they did, I have to say. But if you hold your hands up and admit that you got something wrong, well, then you have to suffer the consequences.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Can I say I couldn't disagree with you more. I have a real issue with the language that Farage used. I have a real issue with him, once again, posturing as a dog whistle. The personification of dog whistle politics in a suit, always.

[Ian Dale]

But I don't think that phrase did that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I do, actually. The way in which he asked Britain to feel enraged, actually, that by definition. How does rage manifest in many individuals? It manifests in physical acts in protest.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that may be, but I think you're using this as an excuse to reinforce your own prejudices against him. Whereas I, I mean, I, I come under criticism on my show for doing the exact opposite and giving, giving him a free pass on things. On this, I haven't given him a free pass at all. But on that phrase, I don't think you can over interpret it if you want, but that to me is not the problem. The problem is when he sees Tommy Robinson leading his thugs into a violent protest and won't condemn it, despite the fact that I Know for a fact he can't stand Tommy Robinson.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Rubbish. Absolutely. That's where you're naive.

[Ian Dale]

It's not rubbish at all.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's just rewind back to our Nicolas Durbson contest.

[Ian Dale]

Tommy Robinson from being involved in his party. He won't have anybody who's a member of the EDL in his party. Now you can say that's performative all you like, but he's got a long standing record on this.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What Nigel Farage does is with his super middle class credentials, public school boy, banker, wanka protest.

[Ian Dale]

Can I just say that you're middle class as well? There's nothing wrong with being middle class.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but I'm not the one that is taking the narrative right up to the line, calling, and I quote, an emergency address to the nation, insisting not that we lean into the generosity of Henry Novak's grief stricken parents, but rather that we listen, listen to him with his pure rage and he triggers so many of the people who are under his spell, his influence. And it's like throwing a match into a pyre, watches it blow up. And you say, oh yes, he conveniently distances himself from Tommy Robinson, but what he effectively does is he throws the baton to Robinson over the barricade, knowing, fine Robinson will run into the flames. If you ask me, Robinson is an infinitely honest individual. Yes, a thug, but more honest about what he absolutely represents.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think that he, as you say, takes language up to the limits sometimes and sometimes goes over the border of respectability. And I deprecate that just as much as you do. And I think you're right that he has gone against the wishes of the parents here.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Now, deliberately, Ian, Deliberately.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, deliberately, of course. No, you're absolutely right on that. I'm not arguing with you on that. I don't think he should have done what he's done. There is an argument about two tier policing, but now is not the time to have that argument. We need to wait until the IOPC issues its report and then debate it in a calm way. And this is where, and I hope you'll agree with this, I think Kemi Badenoch has played this absolutely right. She said some similar things to Farage in some ways, but not in a way that is designed to whip up the public.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I want to actually stick with Farage, if we may, because I think both Keir Starmer, Kemi Badenok, Ed Davy, they're all bystanders to something that's playing out that will have significant repercussions. Not just on the mackering is it makering or mackering by election, but also make a field. Make a field. There we are, got there in the air, the wrong footage, but not just that we're happy, have real implications about the result of that by election, but potentially, therefore, who will lead us? Because what's interesting is I don't think, although I've accused Nigel Farage of some pretty dark stuff, he knows the British public. He knows about needing to grow his base. We know from polling and research that people who are potential reform voters worry, those on the sort of soft side of reform, I. E. Former Conservatives or maybe Labour voters, they worry about being seen as racist if they vote for reform. And I don't think any of this current debate plays to the base that Farage needs to grow, I. E. Away from the extreme right, but into the middle. And the reason he's having to move to the extreme right is because Rupert Lowe is eating the ground from under his feet on the right. He's canvassing an individual in the microfield by election, and he is being supported by an external foreign player in the form of Elon Musk. And that is a real issue further down the line for our democracy. I don't support Farage, but I take greater indignation at the way in which Elon Musk is amplifying Rupert Lowe's campaign. And actually, beneficially, you could argue, I think, will end up delivering Andy Burnham's victory in Manchester because those critical 7 or 8% of votes that would have otherwise gone to reform will go to restoration.

[Ian Dale]

100% agree. I think there was an anecdotal proof of this last night on my program when a caller rang in who said he was a Reform UK member. He completely deprecated what Nigel Farage had said in terms of refusing to condemn the violence. And I said to him, I said, well, what about what Kemi Badenok said? He said, well, I've been really impressed by that. And I said, so are you considering moving back to the Conservatives? He said, well, not yet, but it's made me think. And in a sense, that's all that Kemi Badinot can do, because I do think it's difficult once you've decided to shift your vote to another party, if you go back to your original party, you're kind of admitting you've made a big error. And I don't think people will be willing to do that until after they've actually put their cross in the reform box.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's interesting as well about the timing of all this is Farage Is anyway on a back foot. You remember he was always convening those early morning news conferences. Recently, until this week, he's gone very quiet. This is all because of the 5 million pound donation. The cryptocurrency dude who lives over there in Thailand. And it looks like potentially dirty money certainly doesn't serve Farage's anti establishment gambit. But also the other strong wicket that Reforms built its support on is illegal immigration. Britain as a nation, I think we're not no more racist. In fact, I would say arguably less racist crisis than most countries in Western Europe. Certainly that's the experience of my minority ethnic friends. But we do have a real issue with illegal migration. Asylum seekers, people definitely feel there's a lack of control. The security of our borders plays very, very well. And not just to the hard right, but we know those numbers are coming down. Migration numbers are coming down. It's not the salient issue it was even six months ago. And Nigel Farage is having to plow fresh ground at a time when he's being threatened by the riot and he's being undercut by his own personal finances.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, the political donation figures came out today and reform topped the league table with nine million pounds in the last quarter, which, however you view it, is a big achievement. And when you're looking to fight a by election, I mean, okay, there are financial limits on what you can spend in a by election, but it puts you in a pretty good position. And it also, I mean, assuming that they continue this record of fundraising, it puts them in a superb position in the run up to the next election.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think I was talking to my wee brother about, actually about, you know, campaigning and the money, the resources you need to run an effective campaign. He won his seat by literally a few hundred votes. And when he got donations, he put them into Facebook adverts. You know, how can you prove that those Facebook adverts made a difference? But Elizabeth Oakeshott, you'll recall, she did her research and proved that canvassing or trying to win a seat in Westminster, you need approximately £100,000. Money really matters when it comes to democracy.

[Ian Dale]

Well, my campaign in 2005, I reckon, cost me personally £40,000. And yet the spending limits during the campaign are about 20,000. But you were allowed to spend about another 20,000 in the run up. But if I included my loss of earnings and all the rest of it, it's a massive, massive amount of money

[Tessa Dunlop]

just finally to double down on that Elon Musk influence. He's such a curious figure Isn't he Elon Musk? Because he's fallen out with Trump. He actually is providing really vital intelligence support to Ukraine through his starlink in a way that I think if he was still in the pocket of Trump, he wouldn't necessarily be doing. But at the same time, I just abhor.

[Ian Dale]

He did go to China with Trump.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but he's no longer in the administration.

[Ian Dale]

No, but he still obviously has good relations, otherwise he wouldn't have been on Air Force One.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's a big player. He's one of the richest men in the world. Can they afford to ignore each other?

[Ian Dale]

And the thing is, you look at some of the innovations that he's doing at the moment and you have to admire him. I mean, I think he's a reprehensible character. I certainly wouldn't want him as a friend, but he. A lot of the techno technological advances that he's involved with are amazing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's look now, Musk's direct influence on this Rupert Low character. He's not a polemicist, he's not a speaker, he's not a personality. He's a very rich, I think, individual with unpleasant, hard right politics. Lowe has had 12 posts on X with at least 10 million views since he launched Restore in February. Farage has had no posts with as many views, despite having nearly three times as many followers as Low. And by the way, Low's posts are sometimes also getting reposted by Musk himself. It's what's known as algorithmic patronage and it's all important in democracy. It's terrifying.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And I mean, I've been getting a couple on Instagram as well, which obviously isn't influenced by Elon Musk. It is all to do with algorithms. And I mean, I've never met Rupert Low. I first came across him when he was chairman of Southampton Football Club and was quite a controversial character there. He's a very successful businessman, clearly has earned a lot of money in his career one way or another, and I think he could be the person that delivers another Labour government in 2028, 2029.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Lauren says it's time for a break.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we must obey Lauren.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Indeed.

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[Ian Dale]

So Canada, which is a faraway country of which we in this country seem to know very little at all. And I include myself in that. I have been to Canada, but only for like a couple of days each time. We think of Canadians as Americans with a slightly weird accent.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No we don't, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

I do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't think of Canadians as anything like Americans.

[Ian Dale]

Well, they have a very similar accent except they pronounce some vowels rather differently. So. So a house becomes a hoose.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but the entire model under which they've been governed for the last 200 years is really very different from the American.

[Ian Dale]

Of course it is. I know, but I don't judge a people by the way they're governed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you shouldn't judge a people by their accent.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I kind of do. They look like Americans. I suppose you could say they look like Brits as well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're not nearly as fat.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, so you judge people by their weight? You.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm just pointing out that they don't actually look like Americans. Americans are far more diverse country actually it's far more multi.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that is very true.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I want to first of all speak to the contemporary, the clear sighted Mark Carney. Can I quote him from Davos? I like, I think he's a great, he's a great, he was a great governor of the bank of England. I think he's an impressive politician. Yeah, I'm going to quote him from Davos this year when he declared, we know the old order is not coming back, we shouldn't mourn it. Nostalgia is not a strategy. It's brilliant that because you know, we've just been talking about reform and restore ad infinitum. All their campaigning harks back to an idea of something that once existed, that could no longer exist and shouldn't exist in modern times. And actually the way to move on is to move forward. But you do have to understand your history, I think to be well informed and actually what we could pay attention to is how Canada is thriving as a middle ranking power.

[Ian Dale]

Well, everything you said there and everything he said in that quote that you said is a statement of the bleeding obvious. Obviously you can't live your life as a nation by just harking back to a glorious past past. Now I'm not sure when Canada's glorious past would have been particularly we all know when ours was, but we don't live our lives in this country by Harking back to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't think it's a huge part of what informed Brexit, but actually because of Brexit, I think there's even more reason for us to tack towards the Canadian model and look at what they're doing.

[Ian Dale]

Well, what is the Canadian model in your view?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I just. First of all I thought, well, let's go back and look at where Canada ceased to be British or how it uncoupled from us so effectively and so smoothly. Okay. Because so often we model ourselves on America, but actually why you said we. We lost our precious 13 colonies and since then they've driven forward and become this all consuming, gas guzzling, mighty superpower which we can never hope to emulate or be anything like because they're giant and there's Canada who we uncoupled from. Very wisely. We didn't want to replicate the loss of America and so we thought very hard about it. In the 19th century there was a brilliant son of the manse, Scottish born, founding father effectively of Canada. Can you name him? Really? He was the colossus of the mid 19th century, late 19th century Canadian model.

[Ian Dale]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Isn't it interesting that you can't even name him? Is it like not being able to name Abraham Lincoln really in Canadian?

[Ian Dale]

Could you have done before you'd done that research?

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's not the point. I've done the research.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I know, but you couldn't. You wouldn't have. Oh come off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You'll never know.

[Ian Dale]

You would never know. Who is it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

John A. MacDonald.

[Ian Dale]

Never heard of him. And why have you? Why is your phone still on?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's just cheering. Because they've heard the name of their favorite person.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but you had not. Go on, admit it. You had not heard of that person before. Switch your fucking phone off.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The founding father of Canadian sovereignty. He set the country on its path towards what we associate Canada with. Give me the four words that we associate Canada with. Except for Americanisms.

[Ian Dale]

Mounties.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, in terms of their national qualities.

[Ian Dale]

Pragmatism.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Funnily enough, that is one of the four words on my list.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I'll quit while I'm ahead.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Decency. Moderation. Orderliness.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, are. I'd go with that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Now we're going to look at the motto. The Canadian Constitution's motto. Peace, order and good governance. Peace, order and good government. Compared to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. One is the collective, the other is the individual. Which one would you want to model yourself on? Canada. Peace, order and good governance or pursuit of Happiness, you know, what does that even mean, pursuit of happiness?

[Ian Dale]

Anything to be anti American really, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but it's fascinating the more I think about it.

[Ian Dale]

The more you think about it, you've come to the conclusion that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is a bad thing because it's American.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's not a bad thing, but I

[Ian Dale]

feel that it's more rousing than the Canadian one.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but in a world where we're all constantly triggered, do we not

[Ian Dale]

want to keep our lives? Do we not want to have liberty? Do we not want to have happiness? Surely that encapsulates the human spirit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

There was just something I felt more collective about the Canadians.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but that's the thing you obsess about the collective.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What's interesting is Canada had to act in a collective capacity. The Confederation as it was known, to stave off America. There was a presumption throughout the 19th century pretty much that they'd slip into America, they'd just become part of the United States. That was especially the case in the wake of independence and then again post civil war. And what was fascinating about this canny manse man who went for strong economic nationalism and political coalitions and compromise is he drove a path and you know, at the same time as he embraced Britain, giving Canada dominion status. So basically in autonomy, it was like a super devolution which is going to ultimately lead to independence. But he always still lent into that British identity when it mattered to hold back America. But what was key to the success model of Canada? Do you know, it's so boring when you break it down. Infrastructure, great railways, so they could link their country up, attract other provinces. I think Newfoundland doesn't become part of Canada until much later in the 20th century. But rather than people drifting from north Canada into America, south, and there was considerable migration. If you've got great infrastructure and you've got strong national economics, people also travel from east to west, they link up the great prairie lands, they become Canadian.

[Ian Dale]

And that's great. But everything you've just said could be said of America as well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But what makes Canada exceptional is they are smaller than America. They don't have the almighty super power.

[Ian Dale]

They are massively small. I mean, in land mass, if you actually look, look at the map, they're not that different.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know, but in terms of the,

[Ian Dale]

I mean population, they're much smaller.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And also the fertile and resource capacity

[Ian Dale]

of that land, the population of Canada,

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think it's about 40 million.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, that's what I've Got in my head. Let me, let me look it up. But because I mean that, that is quite something when you, when you look at the size of the two nations and America is what, 360 million, something like that? What is the population of this exciting radio?

[Tessa Dunlop]

But what you have is effectively this confederation, a one people and a one government. Even though they're a bilingual nation. Of course we know there's French Catholics and early on there's an act to install Catholic schools, a recognition of embracing difference. So not everyone assimilating to the same model. So instead of just having five peoples and five governments, you have them coalesced in a one people, one government model. And the more I read about it, the more I was like, yes. And actually weirdly, those giant provinces that looked in different directions, that had different religions, different languages, speaks in some ways today where you have a Britain with three of our nations pulling in different directions, led by nationalist leaders, 41.5 million

[Ian Dale]

in 2024, that was the population of Canada. But do you not think though that it's a much bigger achievement for the United States to have kept together as a single entity, as a federal entity than Canada? How many provinces are there in Canada? Seven or eight?

[Tessa Dunlop]

They had a thumping great civil war, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

I know they did, but since then, I mean you haven't heard anything about Texas or California or any other state ceding from the Union, have you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're absolutely enormous. And they don't have a giant sitting on their ass, which Canada does. And what's fascinating is the way in which when it was required, they weaponized their British identity and their connection to British. And I think it's interesting given this Commonwealth of Nations, how on so many levels we can draw from each other and what I think almost holds Britain back in the same way that sometimes I don't think England learns from the Scottish or the Welsh model necessarily when it could, especially in terms of education. I think the Scottish model, the exam system is certainly much superior. And Britain tends to not look for inspiration from other Commonwealth nations because we think of them as our sort of baby brothers and sisters, the second cousins trailing in our wake, when actually they're inspirational models. Canada is an inspirational multi national, highly sophisticated, high performing democracy and we not only should lean into it, but learn from it.

[Ian Dale]

And again, everything you've just said could be said about the United States.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, it's, it could. We're talking about a mid ranking post industrial power. America isn't our partner in that respect. It's a thumping great superpower. It's an uncontrollable giant. What we've always done is tack towards America when I think we'd be far happier if we tried to have a really deep, meaningful relationship with.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we've always had a good relationship

[Tessa Dunlop]

in Canada, but one that allows us to learn from there because I think we never give space for that because we've always put ourselves at the top

[Ian Dale]

of the what do you want to learn from? I mean, I'm sure there are things that we can learn from them, but what would they be?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I've just cited them all. Strong economic nationalism, better infrastructure. Perhaps if there were better trains literally running up and down and across Britain, we wouldn't all be wanting to see them.

[Ian Dale]

You think the Canadian train system is better than the British one?

[Tessa Dunlop]

The 19th century experience, the Canadian Pacific Railway was the long lasting achievement in terms of nation building in the latter part of that century. And when the Liberals didn't sufficiently invest in it, they lost power.

[Ian Dale]

But we have an extensive rail system. I mean, what we, what are we supposed to learn from them? I mean, their trains travel about half the speed of ours as well as if they like the American.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know obviously since the late 19th century things have moved on. We've moved on to the autumnal and big goodness knows what. But I think the point being is invest in your country, invest in good infrastructure problems and we know that we've failed to do that in this country. HS2 is just one example.

[Ian Dale]

This is something that's surprised me. I suspect it's going to surprise you. Canada is actually larger than America in total land mass. They've got 9.98 million square kilometres. America has 9.83.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But, yeah, but we know that it's about resources, isn't it? And, and capacity.

[Ian Dale]

They have got massive resources. I don't think probably the same as the Americans have, but I mean they're not a poor country in terms of minerals and all that sort of thing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but they're poor, which is why

[Ian Dale]

Trump wanted them to become a 51st state.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But their population is 1/10.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's 15%.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I mean, it's like saying, oh, Greenland's massive, you know, therefore, why isn't it more powerful? It's important to remember that acreage isn't everything. But I just, I don't know, just on so many levels. Canada. Fascinating.

[Ian Dale]

Just to round this off though, it is interesting that they. There doesn't seem to be any great republican movement there to get rid of the King as the head of state, which If I was a Canadian and I wanted to be a fully independent country, I wouldn't want to have a foreigner as our head of state.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but you're not. Not speaking as a Canadian. That sits in the shadow of America. And that's.

[Ian Dale]

Well, how does having a monarchy play any role in that?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Look at the way they weaponized King Charles when they felt threatened by Trump last year. They flew the doddery old bugger over there to speak in their parliament. Did a very good job of it, too.

[Ian Dale]

He's not doddery. He's not. Well, he is a bit old, but he's not a bugger.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The point is, you know, I said that with deep affection for our king. In that context, actually, he served his purpose because it's about identity.

[Ian Dale]

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean to say that most Canadians wouldn't necessarily think, okay, isn't it about time we had our own head of state?

[Tessa Dunlop]

But remember, Britain's serving a role. It's giving them an alternative, a pushback point from the real threat, which has always been and always will be geographically and economically, America. And what I think could inform us going forward is the way in which we've managed our relationship with the Canadians. And I think, and I've always thought this, from devolution onwards, separation, certainly with Scotland, will sadly become an inevitability. But let's hope ultimately the relationship will be styled on a. On a Britain Canadian model, and not something much less friendly, for example, with the Republic of Ireland, which has always been more antagonistic anyway. Again, it will be fraught. And who knows what the next hundred years hold, because I think it'll take that long. But certainly the direction of travel sounds is towards independence. But if it must be, I'd hope it is in that model.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, despite arguing with you, I have found this discussion about Canada and Britain's history very interesting. I think maybe in a future episode we ought to look at the relationship between Britain and the Republic of Ireland and sort of how that has grown over or grown apart in many ways over the centuries. Should we move on to some questions?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, we need a break. Kuntalo.

[Ian Dale]

Indeed. Right. This is from Nicky Larkin, who was a For the Many super fan and I'm sure is now the Where Politics Meets History superfan. And by the way, if you do want to send a question in for either of us or both of us, where politics [e-mail] or you can leave a question on the Instagram feed at where politics meetshistory. Dear Professor Dale and Dr. Dunlop. She knows how to wind you up, doesn't she? I thought it was a shame that Tessa picked you up on the use of the word ladies. I use the word ladies frequently in work meetings as I'm celebrating the fact that more ladies are around the table in the business world. If one of my team that is non binary is in the meeting, I make sure I use other terms. There are still many barriers for women in business. Only 2% of venture capital funding goes to female founders, for example. Therefore, being blind to gender overlooks that there is still much progress to be made and the cancellation of many DEI programmes by Trump has seeped into the UK job market. Here is a question. As the summer period is often a slow period for political news, what would you predict will dominate the headlines in the summer? Trump's deteriorating health, minutiae from the Mandelson Files or something else? Do you wish to respond?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think the summer's going to be sadly dominated with, and it will be determined by what happens in the pending Manchester by election, but it will be dominated domestically by who's going to lead the country from the autumn onwards.

[Ian Dale]

I think that's right. I mean, the timing of this is really difficult to predict, isn't it? Somebody, the person I was having lunch with today, said, well, did I think that there would be a new Prime Minister by the end of July? And I said, well, it's very difficult to tell because if Labour win that by election and the victor of that by election then decides to launch an immediate coup against Starmer, Starmer may well stand against him if he thinks that he can win. And I don't know the answer to that at the moment. Starmer actually hasn't had a bad few

[Tessa Dunlop]

weeks, had a great few weeks.

[Ian Dale]

And if he. I mean, the Mandelson Files were a bit limp and tame, I think Darren Jones and Pat McFadden have come out of it far worse than Starmer has. So if he say he has some good economic news over the next few

[Tessa Dunlop]

years, which he's had recently, he has had a bit.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you're right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Good migration figures, depending on your political bend.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I think the migration figures are actually quite good for whatever your political

[Tessa Dunlop]

ben is, unless you're trying to run a university and pull in international fees or your confederation of British businesses and you want certain skilled workers.

[Ian Dale]

We did establish that the drop off in international students has not been very marked, despite common rumors.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We disagreed on that, actually.

[Ian Dale]

Well, we did disagree, but I gave you the figures.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, okay, let's carry on to Disagree. Ian's figures sometimes come from chat gdp. And just because he has a man's voice doesn't mean what he says should be given more credibility than what I see. Can we go to another question?

[Ian Dale]

I must apologize for being a man again.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Cut off your penis, Right?

[Ian Dale]

No, I'll let you do it for me, shall I? It would give you enormous pleasure. You have to find it first, though.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Ben Gorey says hello, Tessa. Just wanted to say I love the pod and thank you for sharing the Engelsburg ideas website, which is what gave me inspiration, by the way, for the Canada discussion. He said says with work at the moment and to be honest, smoking a little bit too much green in the evening. I've been struggling to keep up.

[Ian Dale]

What does that mean? Smoking weed? Yeah. How disgusting.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, don't be so judgmental, grandpa.

[Ian Dale]

I don't like drugs.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We don't do them then.

[Ian Dale]

No, I don't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've been struggling. Back to Ben. I've been struggling to keep a strict reading schedule. But these essays, Engelberg essays, that is, are great to hit the history sweet spot with a link to modern times that makes it easy to digest. Suggest. Love you and Ian, whilst I do tend to agree a little more with yourself and don't tame the tiger, he doesn't end with a psd. Cut off his penis. That actually didn't have a question, but I just like the tone of it. And I knew that you'd curl your nose up at the weed. But I have got one here from Paula which speaks to what I wanted to talk about anyway, the biotapestry coming to London. She says, did you hear on the news that apparently Britain has more potholes than France? And I did hear that because Macron and the French administration have said it's okay, the biotapestry will not deteriorate when it is delivered by Laurie in these extraordinary sort of suspended shield like contraptions. Because what happens is the vibrations from the road that go up and down are going to be transmitted so that the vibrations end up impacting the tapestry as horizontal motions, not vertical motions, which are apparently less damaging. And it'll all be fine on the other side of the Channel because it's been tested. But the French have warned we do have more potholes, which speaks to the conversation we've just been having about Canadian infrastructure. Potholes are a big election loser and we do have way too many of them.

[Ian Dale]

We do have way too many of them. A pothole on Pembury High street meant that I couldn't get the train that I to. Wanted. Wanted this morning because I, I. You know how it's when you get onto the platform and it hasn't moved off, but is about to move off and they won't let you get on it. That happened to me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why?

[Ian Dale]

Because of the pothole. Because it's got that there's. They think there's a sinkhole and it's literally about the size of a half a football on Pembury High Street. So they've coned it all off. And there's a traffic control thing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, right.

[Ian Dale]

And the traffic control is two minutes before you can move. So I just hope the biotapestry goes up the M20, not the M2. I don't know if you've been down the M2, but that, that is very bump. A very bumpy road Indeed. Whereas the M20 is very pleasurable.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But can I just say, how bitchy, by the way, how bitchy of the French to have to point out that we have more potholes than they do.

[Ian Dale]

Typical.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It is a bit. It did make me want to spit in their face. And I'm not even like that. You know, I don't throw cones in Southampton. What do you take me for?

[Ian Dale]

You see, I'm suffering from your disease now because I had a brilliant thing to say and I've forgotten what it was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. At the end of the Canada debate, I turned around to. And I said, I had such a good point to end on. It's flown out of my head. What I really hate. And I always, always caution women against doing this. Women of my age, they all blame the menopause. And I'm like, but didn't you ever have brain dropout before? Why do you pin it to your particular age and your gender? Because that to me is a disincentive from employing women of my age and gender. I don't think we should flag up our frailties in that way. Mask it, pretend it doesn't exist, take more drugs and shut up about it. Sorry if I'm unsympathetic. I really feel for people who have bad menopause symptoms. But for Christ's sake, don't flaunt that particular one. Depending on your line of work, it should be said. But if you're in a job that requires you to have quick fire memory, then. And don't flag it up as a failing tied to your gender.

[Ian Dale]

Your biggest fan, Brian Sage, has been back on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not on. He's like a stalker, I think, almost, isn't he?

[Ian Dale]

He says, hi Chaps, thanks for featuring my previous email. I write to make Ian laugh and Teresa to call me a wanker. So success on both counts. Teresa admits to being tone deaf and inability to pronounce long words is symptomatic of this. She's added to her South London Woke Regiment dream by not only leaning in whilst reaching out, running around in circles whilst jumping to conclusions, being triggered while feeling it speaks to, but also trying to find a safe space whilst finding one of the Greek restaurant owner's sons. Just a bit attractive, a very rounded attitude to life.

[Tessa Dunlop]

See, he's quite fond really. By the way, we've got a lot of response from the waste.

[Ian Dale]

I haven't finished her. He's got question coming. UNESCO stats on languages are worrying for her. For example, around 12 million people are learning German and are largely school kids from adjacent countries. Likewise France, so there are some former French African colonies as well. Over 1.3 billion people across all continents are learning English as worldwide it is by far the major language of trade, commerce, jobs and published research shouldn't be

[Tessa Dunlop]

allowed to muscle out other people's cultures.

[Ian Dale]

It's the lingua Francis of the eu. So sadly, Romanian and possibly even French and German will become. Let me finish. No, I don't want to become colloquialisms spoken solely in their home nations. So I wish her luck with GCSE Romanian, but doubt it will ever happen. Question.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, no, I want to respond to that from another listener, Kate Lees. Because Brian, you bring him up so often, I think he's your only friend.

[Ian Dale]

He does send in emails every week.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Two weird insights cells. We'll stop reading them out either. Don't read out any and we'll stop

[Ian Dale]

the podcasting, me and him being inside.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. Or could more of you send desperate lonely Ian more emails, please. This is from Katie.

[Ian Dale]

She said such a case.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She says, great episode. This was last episode when you were still banging on about Brian. Great episode. Slightly soiled by Brian Cage. Please block him. Thank you. Misnaming Tessa and talking about her.

[Ian Dale]

Well, she's just misnamed him because it was sage.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Misnaming Tessa and talking about her daughter was an actual absolute see you blank, blank move. I agree with Katie enough. Well, let's just go out early rather

[Ian Dale]

than mention Brian should the triple lock be discontinued as it supports those who through a full working life have contributed to their pension by tax and national insurance to spend more in benefits to young people who've never worked. All the best. I really enjoy the pod, but wonder are Rory and Alastair so broke that they have to do voiceovers for the ads on their podcast. And as for the news agents, it's just three folk being hysterical. Both these pods could do with a Corey. Well, couldn't we all?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Except Corey's on Horrible. We've got Lauren, who's saying, it's time. Now we wrap the pod and I think we can cut that bit.

[Ian Dale]

She hasn't said that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Cut that bit, Lauren. Brian Cage.

[Ian Dale]

No, she's saying, no, she's not going to cut it. He's a valued listener. If you want to shed listeners, then we're in a very deep decline,

[Tessa Dunlop]

thank you very much.

[Ian Dale]

Gain listeners.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not.

[Ian Dale]

Not drop them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Please send your questions to where politics meetshistory. That's the Instagram. And I filter hard. Oh, yeah, Just read out the ones I like.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, exactly. Whereas I read them all out.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I know you do. Indiscriminate.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, because that's how it should be. You're just so. So conscious that you need to be stroked and have praise. Whereas I read out warts and all.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's friends with everyone. Even Nicola Sturgeon.

[Ian Dale]

Dear, oh dear.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And Nigel Farrell.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, have a lovely weekend. Goodbye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

When's the General's book out?

[Ian Dale]

Today. Have you bought your copy yet?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I'm just downloading my own for 99p on Kindle.

[Ian Dale]

It's not available for 99p on Kindle. Mine is. Yeah, it was. Because it's a cheap tat T. Oh, no, it's okay.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Next week.

[Ian Dale]

Goodbye. Well, go on, say goodbye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Bye. Bye.

[Ian Dale]

To the lovely listeners.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're pluraled now. We got rid of Brian.

[Ian Dale]

Brian, we love you. Really.

[Tessa Dunlop]

This has been a global player. Original production.

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