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- [00:00]
A
This is a Global Player original podcast.
- [00:12]
B
It's the Where Politics Meets History podcast with him, Ian Dale, me, Tessa Dunlop, just going to get in a really professional trail at the top to say that we're going to be talking about the findings and polemic of Reverend Thomas Malthus.
- [00:29]
A
Are you going to think badly of me if I tell you that I have no clue who you're talking about?
- [00:33]
B
Yeah. You're so disappointing. If I said Malthusia is a ma, you would know what I'm talking about.
- [00:38]
A
No, I wouldn't.
- [00:38]
B
Yeah, the guy who said that if populations continue to grow exponentially, we will run out of food. Just after the French Revolution, he started getting his knickers in a twist because he noticed there were loads and loads more babies and what ho. The amount of food wasn't expanding as exponentially. And it ripped through. This idea of this thought about population size and growth ripped into it too
- [01:03]
A
much because otherwise you won't have anything.
- [01:04]
B
You're quite right. But it's very significant because the United nations came out last week and said, unprecedented global decline in population growth rates. This is the first time since old Reverend Thomas Malthus put his pen on paper and said the exact opposite. Only taken a couple of hundred years plus.
- [01:23]
A
Good. And we're also going to be talking about the future of the BBC because if you are listening to this podcast before 10 o' clock on Tuesday morning, as many of you will be, because I know you listen to it on your commute, you can switch on BBC Parliament at 10 o' clock and watch my debut in front of a select committee. Oh boy, have I got a lot to say.
- [01:44]
B
I'm not allowed to laugh at you though.
- [01:46]
A
You can do what you like.
- [01:47]
B
No, you know I'm not. Because you said. What did you do over the weekend? Mainly I was placating my younger brother, he of MSP fame, who believes I'm unpleasant to you and he thinks I was particularly unpleasant to you in the last podcast.
- [02:05]
A
I could think of others where you've been more unpleasant to me.
- [02:08]
B
So. Because now he speaks with a new clear eyed vision, courtesy of his status
- [02:13]
A
as a renewed authority. Indeed, despite being a liberal Democrat, a
- [02:17]
B
little bit of mansplaining more than regularly dollops into my WhatsApp from the family group and beyond. Splosh. Splosh, I thought. Was I really that horrible to Ian? Actually, to be fair, one other person said it was a tetchy and tense episode. So I downloaded it and had a listen and within five minutes I was trying to stop you Promoting your book brackets again, to which you turn around with the retort, I hate you. So I was like, okay, but yeah, it's me that's apparently hating on Ian. And then I realized it's a gendered construct.
- [02:51]
A
Of course it is. Yes, because you're a poor, feeble member of the female class.
- [02:58]
B
No, not that at all. It's just the expectations are societally that women will be the diplomats, the emollient, the compromisers. So when I therefore attack you and have no truck for your nonsense, apparently it's all my fault.
- [03:14]
A
If we were having this conversation in 1956 as opposed to 2026, I think you would have a. Probably a good point there. I don't think that really stands up nowadays.
- [03:26]
B
Well, interestingly, it was women who countered my younger brother's suggestion that I was the, quote, bitter and unkind one, and they said in response to my Instagram post, funnily enough, this is from Diana. I find Ian, the spiky one, and quite patronizing at times. Love the pod. She adds, we got hearty responses. I got a real hater. One man who just absolutely couldn't abide me. But this one's better from Alison.
- [03:56]
A
Oh, no, we'll read that one out as well, just for a bit of balance.
- [03:58]
B
I didn't screen grab it, but I'll look for it in a sec. I love yours and Ian's podcast says Alison. Being born and raised in Liverpool. I get the banter between you not saying others born elsewhere don't. It makes me laugh. It's an honest podcast and as a woman, I understand you, Tessa, and love Ian's gentleness in his comebacks.
- [04:18]
A
Well, there you go.
- [04:18]
B
Including that I hate you, but you don't.
- [04:21]
A
You don't put any context into that at all. And you don't say that I said that laughing as I said it.
- [04:28]
B
No, for sure. But people who are listening to the podcast presumably know. But it was. It just struck me that it clearly worries my younger brother that I'm not respectful enough to the man sitting in front of me.
- [04:41]
A
No, I think what he's trying to say to you is that you need to be nicer to me because then you'll be liked more people by more people, which is what politicians always try to do. Of course. Be liked by it. Look at Andy Burnham. Please like me. Please like me. Have you seen most of his social media now? It's not about politics, it's about how many keepy uppies he can do and things like that.
- [05:02]
B
You're right, it is the pick me vibe that politicians give off. And my little brother's in that space now because he wants to be liked and to grow his socials.
- [05:11]
A
But it is natural, I mean, it's a natural, natural human thing to want to be like. I want to be like. I don't want people to hate me, but I have come to the conclusion that a lot of people do for reasons I don't quite understand, but there's nothing I can do about it.
- [05:24]
B
I like to be liked by some people, but I've got to say I worry probably less than I should about my likability.
- [05:29]
A
The older you get, the less you worry about it.
- [05:31]
B
I found the hater, by the way. He's called Andy M. Oh yeah, Andy's got numbers by his name. Oh, it is a question. This is the question I pose about whether women are judged more harshly than men. Indeed. If you would only open your myopic eyes and look at the tsunami of hate that flows towards men every day. That's men getting cancelled for mere words. Even as women can commit domestic violence and all sorts of actual crimes and get away with it in the court of public opinion. Scot free that females on reality shows committing sexual assault or wanton and bullying and getting away with it. Scott Double T free. Even having producers lean heavily on it for further entertainment purposes. You, you are a thoroughly unpleasant individual. One who has long since lost the ability to view both genders through the prism of equality and fairness. It's a wonder that Andy is following me on my Instagram.
- [06:26]
A
Well, indeed I do question about all these females who've been sexually assaulting people on reality tv. Who are these people and why don't I know about them?
- [06:34]
B
It's a two tier society, clearly, Ian.
- [06:38]
A
That's a new thing, isn't it? Two tier. We have to say that about everything.
- [06:41]
B
And him asking me to judge the two genders equally. The point is, Andy, we're living a patriarch, my friend, and it ain't equal. And you're not equal. You are physically stronger than me. It's extraordinary. A fit woman. A woman physically fit, muscularly toned and a fit man. She is in her mid-20s when she has equitable strength with a man in his mid-60s.
- [07:03]
A
Fact, I wouldn't like to see anybody get in a physical scrap with you. I think you're knock their heads off
- [07:10]
B
and nor you, Ian.
- [07:11]
A
Even on Mounjiro, I'm just a complete wimp. But isn't it funny though that people do have different views about our relationship and the Fact is, we've done 131 podcasts together. If we didn't like each other, if we didn't get on, we wouldn't be doing it, would we? One of us would have stormed out. I mean, I nearly did storm out once. You. Absolutely. Before you remind me.
- [07:37]
B
But that was more to do with the tech in the Liverpool Hotel you were in, I seem to recall.
- [07:41]
A
Oh, no, this is in the studio. Don't you remember that one?
- [07:43]
B
Oh, that one.
- [07:44]
A
Oh, yeah, Lord Ashcroft.
- [07:46]
B
See, Duncan found that one. Really? That's interesting. Little brother Duncan found that one really entertaining. And that was you, the man stropping on me. But when I strop on you, he finds it awkward. See, speaking to that gender divide. Oh, thank you, Ian, for providing the ammo.
- [08:03]
A
Oh, anytime.
- [08:04]
B
It's my pleasure. Now, you want to talk about the BBC. I've just come from the BBC, where after decades of neglecting the east of Europe. Extraordinary, really, given this is where you
- [08:15]
A
get your normal Romania bit in.
- [08:16]
B
No, but because you said you want to talk about the BBC, tell me the countries where the World Service is starting up specific language and news services. The three, actually four countries, but two cover the same language.
- [08:33]
A
Ukraine.
- [08:35]
B
No, they've got one there already, don't they?
- [08:36]
A
Well, obviously it must be Romania.
- [08:38]
B
It is Romania.
- [08:39]
A
Moldova.
- [08:40]
B
That's the fourth.
- [08:44]
A
And Iran.
- [08:46]
B
No, I kind of gave you a clue at the top there.
- [08:49]
A
I missed it.
- [08:50]
B
They're nesting together, Ian. Poland and Hungary.
- [08:54]
A
Right.
- [08:54]
B
So Magyar Poland and Romania, a very tiny team. It's just digital and social medias and it is all about Russian propaganda and trying to counter it, I do declare. I think it might be too little, too late. There was a very unfortunate explosion, Ukrainian missile explosion or something, near Constanza near the Romanian Black Sea port at the weekend and didn't go down at all well with Romanians. And you know, when I was in Romania, when the drone hit civilian accommodation in Galatz near the Danube on NATO terrain, and I posted on my socials and I said something using it to. To prove that British journalists didn't know how to pronounce anything in Romanian, actually. But when I was on the post, I said, oh, God, I wish Putin would go to hell, or words to that effect in Romanian. And I think I got 830 comments, 150,000 views. And a sizable minority, probably nearly half of the comments claim, tried to claim that it was Ukrainian false flag operation. You know, remain. Russian propaganda is working really well over there. Really well.
- [10:00]
A
But if they're not going to Do a radio station, which is what the BBC World Service would normally do in a country or an area. I mean, what can they really achieve by this?
- [10:11]
B
Well, I suppose their belief is. And remember that the Romanian election was cancelled because of the tick tock algorithms and Callan Georgescu, the Putin puppet, suddenly rising from Nowhere just approximately 18 months ago. I suppose the thinking is that it nowadays all happens online to counter the sewage in the sewer. You've got to get in there with your little canoes. And that's why they're starting up these social medias. And I presume that's why they reached out to me, because, you know, I've been plodding along, posting on my socials, but actually because of the divisions, because there's a whole tranche of people who now seem to glamorize the Ceausescu era. It's really bizarre, but true. And also the kind of sucking on the. On the Putin nipple. This idea that somehow Romania can afford to negate groups like the EU and NATO and will be safe. History tells us they've never been safe under the Russian armpit. It means that I try. Not always, but I try and avoid politics to a greater extent, partly because it gives me a broader audience. And then when I really have to come in on something important, I can. But if you. If you go in on a political level as a foreigner, A, it's unpopular. Who does she think she is? And B, you only talk to half the population.
- [11:25]
A
But you have become the de facto Romanian ambassador to the uk, haven't you, with your profile among the Romanian community here?
- [11:32]
B
Yeah, it's got to the point where I find it a bit overwhelming and I'm not sure quite what to do with it. And we're. We're waiting, aren't we, for a date from the Romanian Embassy so that we can take someone very important to lunch there. But we're still waiting for that date.
- [11:44]
A
Well, at the embassy, yeah.
- [11:46]
B
You and me having lunch, Ian, at the embassy. I've no idea, but we're going to find out. Okay. We haven't got the invitation yet.
- [11:52]
A
Very delicate palate.
- [11:54]
B
Just. You can piss right off. I'll thump you.
- [11:57]
A
Don't need. I mean, I do want to talk about the BBC, but we'll do it after the break properly.
- [12:02]
B
But is it tied into that? Because I don't know who's funding into the World Service. No, but I don't know who's funding this new Romanian East European Polish Service.
- [12:10]
A
Well, it's either the World Service itself or it'll come as part of the direct grant from the Foreign Office. But I had a feeling that that had finished.
- [12:16]
B
Now I did too, which means it must be coming out for the BBC budget.
- [12:21]
A
Well, hold that thought, listener, and we'll come back to this in a couple of minutes.
- [12:28]
C
Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners, lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [13:04]
B
On Friday, I spent some time with some charming people in Essex in relation to some history research I was doing. Don't want to give away their identities. And they were without exception, reform voters. And when she drove me to the station at the end of the afternoon, I asked her about reform voting and she said, I just want things to be the way they once were. And when I was looking up Reverend Thomas Malthus at the end of the 18th century, I realized that was how he was feeling slightly when he surveyed the scene. And once upon a time there'd just been one big city in England and that was London. And suddenly over the period of a few decades, there were cities mushrooming all over England. There was mechanization, there was the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution. Manchester grew to 10 times its size in a hundred years. How would Andy Burnham have coped with that pace of change? But back to Thomas Malthus, because it is fascinating how his equation over the 200 year period has been flipped on its head. He is a curate. It's just come out of this radical period at Cambridge University. He's got a very interesting father who's a broad thinker.
- [14:29]
A
He's a sort of assistant vicar.
- [14:30]
B
Exactly, just so and so. He's registering and overseeing baptisms and deaths and he can't help but notice he is baptizing far more babies then he's burying the dead. He's like whoa. And he also is shocked by just how poor people are. Can't get over it. Being a middle class man, hadn't really been exposed to it before. And he's also affected by some of the optimistic thinking around industrial growth and population growth from academic friends of his who are writing the opposite. Feeling encouraged by all this exponential Growth. And he thinks no, it doesn't work. He says actually, and arguably up until that point he, he made sense and his thinking made sense that when times are good, the population expands, it over expands, people can't afford to look after themselves and, and then it collapses again. And actually you get this perpetual spiral of poverty because people don't know how to put a spike in their breeding, I. E. They have too many children, there's too many of us. And he did this kind of exponential growth curve where there's two children and two children leads to four children and four children leads to eight children. So the population is exponentially growing and the equivalent in terms of food isn't possible, which is where you get this Malthusiasm. It's the first time that people start talking about population growth and they get very excited about it and continue to be infected by his thinking right through until Charles Darwin, about nearly 100 or so well into the 19th century, where then you get the selection of the fittest. And actually a lot of mouth users thinking was get rid of poor laws. How do we stop people having children? He said, actually you've got to resist. Working class people have got to be encouraged to marry later, better be sexually active for a shorter period of time and have fewer children. I mean, it was bunkum. That was never going to happen. His other theory was, and this speaks to today and the child credit for more, more children than two. He said we need to get rid of poor laws, we need to stop supporting the weakest, we need to let them slip away naturally. We need to be more cruel, to be kind. And that was his thinking and infuriated some people. It was certainly massive food for thought and it led to incredible amounts of academic, political and public discourse. He rewrote his tome, his book, about five times, modifying it continually and trying to make it slightly less abhorrent to begin with. He was really pretty negative. You know, he said either the population is rectified through pestilence, plague and war. And there was less of that at that time. And he couldn't see without these people major obliterations of the human population. He first published in 1798 and then published a subsequent four or five times modifying it. And he didn't die till 1834. And he, his, he really landscaped all our conversations around population. And what's fascinating is first of all he was right. Population did keep growing, has continued to grow right through till the present day, even with major global scale wars. It hasn't grown though exponentially. Where he was wrong is he didn't factor in the Industrial revolution and our capacity to make food like never before. And of course that's about to change all over again because now we can make food out of air, water and energy. By all accounts, two things worth noting. So the UN's come out and they said, we've surveyed 14,000 people in 14 countries and they said one in five said they haven't had or expect they won't have their desired number of children. They surveyed countries of every different economic standing, so developed, developing and third world. And the only countries which buck the fertility trend were in countries like Sub Saharan Africa. And yet ironically, it was in the richest countries where people said they couldn't really afford to have children. 95% of childless people in Eastern Europe, including Ukraine, said they wanted children. 95% of childless people, but they didn't have them. And there are now panicked thinkings, there's a whole population department in the UN about what we do concerning this matter. If you think as mid 20th century, the likes of China were coming out and saying one child only, they were being very Malthus about the affair, they were taking it to a state level and yet they've massively gone back on that decision making process. From Thailand to Sweden, France in fact, France, Sweden, Hungary, all three of those countries have pushed a lot of money in behind fertility policies, all of which have failed. Hungary tried to pay per baby, had a brief baby spike and then it crashed down. Likewise Sweden and France, there's occasionally a brief uptick in the wake of an introductory policy, but it never sustains.
- [19:14]
A
Isn't it true that India has overtaken China now as the most populous nation
- [19:18]
B
in the world, their fertility levels are also declining. They were included in this survey. What's the one common denominator in the world? In almost all those countries that's been surveyed, which may help account for the unprecedented crash in birth rates.
- [19:34]
A
More gay people.
- [19:35]
B
Nope. Same numbers as ever, believe it or not. Ian, Just more of you out there, darling.
- [19:41]
A
Yeah, but there would have been. I mean this is a minor point, but there's always been a section of society who are actually gay but get married and have children. I think that that section of society is declining in Western countries.
- [19:55]
B
My gay Romanian neighbour has two IVF babies made in California. I rest my case, that's not the reason. Anyway, gayness is not to blame.
- [20:05]
A
I've just done a two hour interview with Attitude magazine. The first interview for my.
- [20:10]
B
Is that why you're wearing a lemon coloured shirt?
- [20:13]
A
No, why?
- [20:14]
B
It's a very attractive shirt.
- [20:16]
A
Why would I wear a yellow shirt? To be interviewed by attitude. I was interviewed by a lesbian.
- [20:22]
B
Anyway, you look very good.
- [20:23]
A
Very interesting conversation.
- [20:24]
B
Okay, we'll come back to that. I'm going to give you a clue as to why fertility rates might have crashed. This. It's in front of you.
- [20:31]
A
My phone.
- [20:32]
B
Yeah. They think that relationships, it's much easier.
- [20:37]
A
No, I'm not going to say it.
- [20:38]
B
You say it. No, they think relationships are much more insecure than they used to be. That societally we need still more than ever, understandably need to feel secure, most of us to go forth and multiply.
- [20:49]
A
And you know why that is?
- [20:51]
B
Why?
- [20:51]
A
It's because we as a society in the 21st century have lost that sense of shame that they, and I'm not saying this is a bad thing, that they used to be my mother.
- [21:05]
B
What do you mean? In what context?
- [21:07]
A
Well, for example, people split up nowadays for reasons which 30, 40, 50 years ago they would have just grinned and
- [21:16]
B
born it knuckled down.
- [21:17]
A
Yeah. And I think people saw divorcees as people who should not be consorted with. They were shameful people. If you lived in sin, as the phrase went, that was a terrible thing.
- [21:35]
B
The wrong side of the blanket.
- [21:36]
A
Well, exactly. And yet most people nowadays, before they get married, they try it out first. Because I mean you, you find out whether you can live with someone. If you actually try that, that's all gone. We don't feel this sense of shame now.
- [21:50]
B
Several reasons for that. One is, and mobile phones, which is this ubiquitous factor across all these countries, allow you to spread your social network far further so you can have relationships with anonymity. I. You're not going to be judged by tittle tattle neighbors or the local community. We are now a more. More anonymous society, a more lonely society, a more detached society, and bizarrely, through that small screen, a more aspirational society. I might want to trade you in for a better looking podcast partner who we. Canary yellow shirt and I just need to go online to find him.
- [22:21]
A
Well, you'll find him tomorrow when you go and interview Rory Stewart.
- [22:24]
B
Indeed. We'll come to that at the end of the podcast. I'm interviewing Rory Stewart.
- [22:29]
A
Should we do a poll on how many of our listeners think I'm better looking than Rory Stewart? I think I'd be quite confident of winning that poll. Don't tell him that either.
- [22:37]
B
I'll tell him. No, I need. It's not tomorrow anyway. I'm interviewing on Wednesday. Oh, sorry, whatever. I've got a Day to prepare. I haven't read his book yet, but I'm looking forward to reading Middlemarch, obviously. So, but. But the upshot of all this was then they got two academics on. I was listening to this fascinating program on, on fertility decline today and whether it mattered and they were like, well, it doesn't really matter because we've got AI coming along and the housing crisis will be eased. It should be said Britain's leading from the front in terms of fertility decline. It's now at 1.4. The numbers of actual live births has crashed to an unprecedentedly low rate, the lowest since 1977. But if you think the population's massively grown since then, you would expect, expect that number not to have fallen by as much.
- [23:19]
A
Isn't it massively influenced, though by the birth rate for non English immigrants?
- [23:28]
B
So I would therefore fall the wrong side of the fence because 40% of live births have at least one parent who's born abroad, including my relationship.
- [23:37]
A
40%?
- [23:38]
B
Yeah. And therefore my children, you know, a little bit watered down, aren't they from our Norman Conquest genes anyway, or are they Celtic? I don't know, I've never looked into it. But the point being is that these academics are saying, well, actually, I think we'll manage a bit more space and you know, capitalism will adjust. And there's AI and all these unknowns and there's so many unemployed graduates at the moment. But what they failed to acknowledge is the sadness that there are that came up in this East European statistic. 95% of childless people in East Europe would like a child. And actually many of my friends or younger friends I know would like a child. But in fact, one of the women I met on Friday. But such is the insecurity of the world financial. The debts they carry, but also this relationship insecurity that people just don't feel they can take a punt on life. Something so sad about that, Ian.
- [24:34]
A
Yeah, I'm not sure that the results of that survey would be replicated in this country. I think there's a growing number of middle class people, men and women, who just do not want children.
- [24:47]
B
Okay. And I wonder why not?
- [24:50]
A
Because they are more centered on their careers, they're more centered on the material aspects of life and they know that having a child will turn their lives upside down.
- [25:02]
B
But careers and material aspects and travel have been available since the 70s. I go back to.
- [25:07]
A
Well, not so. Not, not so much. And particularly for women who now I suspect make up 50% of the workforce, which they probably didn't in the 70s.
- [25:19]
B
The other thing that the findings discovered was not just financial concerns, but time poverty.
- [25:25]
A
Yeah.
- [25:25]
B
And again, I point to the phone. Ian.
- [25:27]
A
Oh, God, you're right on that.
- [25:28]
B
Yeah.
- [25:29]
A
Do you know I have three days at the weekend where I haven't had to do anything, really. And I've wasted the whole weekend by doing nothing.
- [25:38]
B
How much of it was spent on your phone?
- [25:39]
A
Huge amounts.
- [25:40]
B
I rest.
- [25:41]
A
My John said to me yesterday, do you realize you've been sitting or lying there on the sofa scrolling through your Instagram reels for an hour?
- [25:48]
B
Yeah, it's wicked.
- [25:49]
A
Then I realized, yes, I had. But it's. It's entertaining, isn't it?
- [25:54]
B
Well, I look at my metrics on Facebook and they go, we'll give you a bonus. If you post a picture, we'll pay you an extra pound. Literally. I'm like, why do I get money on Facebook? Yeah. On my Romanian Facebook account. Yeah, I do. I'm monetizing it.
- [26:05]
A
You see, I. I'm so bad at all of this.
- [26:08]
B
Well, you don't. You've got a proper regular.
- [26:09]
A
I used to be a trendsetter on social media, and now I feel as if I'm falling behind. Stop laughing.
- [26:14]
B
Oh, no. They're gonna think I'm horrid to you.
- [26:16]
A
Exactly.
- [26:17]
B
Can I swallow this snare?
- [26:19]
A
We're going to. In future episodes, identify the when Tessa was horrible to Ian moment. And we've just had it.
- [26:26]
B
I do like your lemon shirt, though. It's lovely. You look good in yellow.
- [26:32]
C
Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-Grainger click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [27:08]
A
Now, before we move on to the BBC, Tessa wants to make a point about parenting.
- [27:13]
B
Yeah. Donald Trump has lost control of his children. I'm talking about Bibi Netanyahu and Iran. He's just lost it. Like, he is unable to control them. On the one hand, he's saying, put your missiles away now, guys. Put your rockets down. We're sticking with the peace. And on the other hand, apparently in conversation with Bibi Netanyahu, he literally said, everybody hates you. You are blankety blank crazy. You're the reason why no one likes Israel. And Bibi Netanyahu is like still bombing Lebanon.
- [27:44]
A
Yeah. Donald Trump not really understanding that he's the reason that a lot of people hate America at the moment.
- [27:50]
B
Yeah, it's a lot.
- [27:51]
A
Yeah. Doesn't show a lot of self knowledge there, does he? I saw a video on Twitter this morning. I don't know who it was. I think it might have been a Democratic senator. And he was saying that just before the 2021 presidential election, the president of Kazakhstan rang Donald Trump and said, oh, we're going to be building the world's biggest tungsten mine. I have no idea what tungsten is, but some sort of metal thing. And within a few weeks, the two Trump brothers were made directors and part owners of the company that were awarded the contract. I mean, that takes some pretty big bollocks, doesn't it, to think that nobody's going to notice that sort of thing.
- [28:38]
B
And there was me thinking that the only person to get money out of Kazakhstan was Tony Blair. But of course, Donald Trump, if he knew his history, would understand that Bibi Netanyahu has form. It was Bill Clinton, who I always think is relatively mild mannered, who said in 1996 to Netanyahu, who is the blankety blank superpower in this relationship, which
- [29:00]
A
I suspect many presidents have had to point out to various Israeli prime ministers over the years.
- [29:04]
B
It has to be said, I think Netanyahu is in a category all of his own actually at the moment.
- [29:08]
A
Question. What would you say that Bill Clinton was the best American president since Ronald Reagan? It's quite difficult to think of anyone that was better than him, despite, I mean, obviously there was all the Lewinsky scandal and whatever. But as a steward of the American economy, as being in charge of American foreign policy, I mean, yes, there were bad things that happened. I mean, Rwanda was one when I mean, he says to this day it's the one thing that he really regrets.
- [29:43]
B
Oh, likewise. Encouraging Ukraine to sell any. That's another of his regrets.
- [29:47]
A
But generally I think he's probably the best American president of the last 30 years.
- [29:52]
B
I have a very, very vivid memory and I must have been late teens at the time of Yasser Arafat sort of playing play, fighting him on the American, the White House lawn. Do you remember that?
- [30:07]
A
Don't remember that.
- [30:08]
B
I have a very vivid memory of it. He had an ability, a knack. He's hugely personable, isn't he?
- [30:15]
A
He's very personable and a great communicator and also with some intellectual heft behind him. And that I think is what our present day politicians lack. And in Keir Starmer's case, he doesn't have the ability to communicate either.
- [30:33]
B
Yeah, he's no charisma. That's the issue with Keir Starmer. Funnily enough, I was on Radio 5 last night up against your standard right winger guy, Tory advisor called James Price and we got talking about Andy Barnum and it's the first time I've heard on record a right wing conservative commentator speaking warmly of Rachel Reeves and Keir Starmer. I literally said, pinch yourself, Stephen, you've heard it here first. It is a mess that the Conservative right have helped make this pushing Starmer out and they will be hoisted by their own petard when in comes a more left wing man who's. Whether it's Wes or Streeting, who's going to introduce. I don't know what. Or Wes or Streeting, I mean Burnham or Streeting, they're going to ratchet up capital gains, they're going to hit second homes, they're going to shower a load of shit on the right and it's entirely their fault.
- [31:25]
A
I don't think you can say it's the right's fault that Starmer is being ousted. It's people in the Labour Party's fault that that's happening.
- [31:31]
B
I think from the very get go, the tone, the attack of the right wing press getting ridiculously disproportionately over excited about a free pair of specs, for example, from the very beginning, out of the traps they laid into him. Disproportionately so.
- [31:46]
A
Well, I don't agree with you. I think if that had been a Conservative Prime Minister, they would have been even more vicious and so would you.
- [31:53]
B
No, actually, but I don't. But. But the majority of the press in this country, Legacy Press, is owned by the right.
- [31:59]
A
Well, the Telegraph, the Times and the Mail are.
- [32:01]
B
Yeah, the Express, it's bonkers.
- [32:04]
A
Nobody reads the Express. I mean, look, do you know what the populate, not population, the circulation of those newspapers is compared to what it was even five years ago. We all know they have so little influence things.
- [32:16]
B
That's where you're so naive. They still to this day set the agenda for the mainstream media. We know that the likes of the BBC, itv much. Let's come on to the BBC now because I know you want to talk about it. I. I'm so sorry. They still, when I do The Newspaper Review, for example, on Radio 5, they're the new newspapers we go to and we look and we talk about the subjects that they flag up. So it's always about immigration and boats and Burnham and whether Keir Starmer's as useless as we were.
- [32:42]
A
Well, you should pick other stories then.
- [32:44]
B
Well, I do try to, to, but we're stuck on the front page.
- [32:46]
A
Just before we go on to the BBC, did you see Andy Burnham's Newsnight interview with Victoria Derbyshire?
- [32:53]
B
I saw some of it.
- [32:54]
A
Did you see Wes Treating's interview with Lewis Goodall? An hour and a half.
- [32:58]
B
Yeah, I went to sleep to it.
- [32:59]
A
An incredible interview, I think. And if, if you haven't listened to it, do go listen to it. Because Wes Streeting was in full project mode, wasn't he? I mean, he was very amusing, absolutely scathing about Starmer, but I didn't think
- [33:13]
B
he was entirely scathing, actually.
- [33:15]
A
I mean, well, I think the bits that you missed when he went to sleep, I think you might revise that.
- [33:19]
B
Okay. I heard the bits on, on Israel. He was quite strong on that. I thought he tried to caveat it by saying he thought the man had extraordinary resilience. Yeah, he liked him on a personal
- [33:32]
A
level, but generally he said he's not fit to be Prime Minister and that's why I've lost confidence.
- [33:37]
B
But he's already told us that by resigning from writing.
- [33:40]
A
But he did this in a way that was so direct, which I was quite surprised at in many ways. But wasn't that a brilliant example of the long form interview working? Because if Wes Streeting had been like. Andy Burnham's interview was 12 minutes, which is quite long for a half hour program. I just thought that the contrast between those interviews where Andy Burnham kept getting tetchy with Victoria Derbyshire, he kept refusing to answer her questions and you just thought, mate, you've got nothing there, there, that you can't even tell us what the fiscal rules are.
- [34:13]
B
But the difference is Andy Burnham is on a platform that far more people are going to see with Victoria Darby show.
- [34:18]
A
Well, that's actually not true.
- [34:19]
B
Okay.
- [34:20]
A
The news agents get around a quarter of a million people listening to or watching their episodes. And I mean, News Night sometimes get more than that, but not on a Friday night.
- [34:30]
B
Yeah, but it's posted out across all the socials. It's more heavily posted. I think probably it has more traction and visibility. A podcast doesn't have the same level of agency. We try our best, Ian, we do
- [34:41]
A
try our best, but we don't get. We don't get the promotion that the news agents get. Anyway, let's not scratch that particular wound. Right, BBC. I'm doing this evidence session tomorrow morning. What do you think I should be saying? What future does the BBC have? And I mean, if we were having this conversation 30 years ago, do you. Because the BBC charter is renewed, it's generally every 10 years, isn't it? I mean, to my mind, the BBC needs radical reform and I'm not somebody who's anti the BBC. I'm anti some of the things they do, I'm anti some of the budget decisions that they make. But generally I think the BBC is a good thing and we still need it going into the 2000-30s and 2000-40s. But it can't stay as it is, can it?
- [35:31]
B
I've always felt it's too big. But the problem is, I don't know where you shave, which bits you shave off. Whenever they try to, I don't know, close down a Radio 6 or something, up in arms go the minority of viewers or listeners and suddenly it grows and sort of a protest vote becomes suddenly a sort of established party of interest. And we talked at the beginning of this show about. Now they're taking on Romania, Poland, Hungary again, arguably, rightly so. We've got giant diasporas of those people in our own country who should be served by the beat. You see, that alone is a good reason. But where does it end? You've got the Asian service, so if we look internationally, you've got that. And I think that's where BBC has real strength. It has incredible networks and prestige as a. As an external British brand. But at the same time, you have to feed your home audience because your home audience is paying for you. They have great success stories like traitors. But in order to have the one big success that is, say, traitors, that is a appointment to view that links up the nation, that sees everyone have a common talking point at work the next day. They also have loads of duds that they can't afford to make and they
- [36:41]
A
continue with the duds. That's the thing when. I mean, Mrs. Brown's Boys is one of my pet hobby horses. The most unfunny program on television and yet it keeps being recommissioned.
- [36:53]
B
Somebody must watch it.
- [36:54]
A
Well, do they? Do they really?
- [36:56]
B
Now I'm worried if you're going to be giving evidence in front of a select committee that you haven't already got your theory, the city, and it sounds rather unfortunate.
- [37:02]
A
Well, I don't know what questions they're going to ask. I should be answering their questions. I'm not I don't get to make an opening statement or anything.
- [37:08]
B
No, but surely you have several pressing points you want to make.
- [37:11]
A
Well, my main point will be that the diminution, if. Is that the right word? Anyway, the reducing in importance of the news and current affairs department has to stop and be reversed because whenever there are budget cuts to be made, it's always news and current affairs that gets hit first. And the diminishment, diminishment. And I think that that is a disgrace. If the, if the BBC is at least in most part about public, public interest broadcasting, then surely news coverage has to be at its center.
- [37:51]
B
But what news coverage? We've started by saying internationally they're great, they're gold plated and they're recognized.
- [37:55]
A
No, they're not great internationally. The BBC world very great and still widely respected. But if you look at the number of international editors and correspondents they have now, the number of foreign bureaus, it is a fraction of what it used to be.
- [38:09]
B
And also they don't pay their stringers properly because there's a funding crisis, which is why I don't as often make programs and commentaries and Fuchs from our own correspondence because it's just so badly paid it's not worth putting in the invoice. I mean, they're not funded. So unless they've got a correspondent over there. So for example, they have one in America, they have one in South Africa. Then those countries covered. But many of the little, very important countries are covered by one person. Like I know Eastern Europe's covered, I think six countries are covered by one person.
- [38:39]
A
But what they've become myopic in their news coverage in that, yes, they will cover America. They over cover America, I would say now, okay, Trump's president, so it's always going to be newsworthy. But we don't hear what goes on in large parts of Asia. We don't hear what goes on in large parts of Africa. When it gets to the point, point that as a British news consumer I have to switch on Al Jazeera English to get world news coverage, you realize
- [39:09]
B
we have a problem and I push back and say, but one of the places where they've really closed departments and stations isn't international or it is also local.
- [39:21]
A
So it's local but also British national. I mean that they have decimated their politics coverage.
- [39:27]
B
So we're talking about funding across the board. Ian, that's the problem.
- [39:30]
A
We are in news and current affairs. I would question the amount of money they spend on buying sports rights. I would Question the proliferation of radio stations that the digital radio stations that they create, because we know when they
- [39:45]
B
tried to close them down, they weren't allowed to. They wanted to close down six Music.
- [39:49]
A
It wasn't that they weren't allowed to. They bowed to what they thought was public opinion. I'm talking about this, like Radio 1 dance. Now, all of those stations exist in the commercial sector. Why does the BBC need to do them?
- [40:01]
B
Because if they don't have youth attractions and broadcast, then they don't bring up the next generation.
- [40:06]
A
But they don't understand how to get the youth either watching or listening to their programs.
- [40:11]
B
Before you, before you get on your hobby horse tomorrow, you need to look into their listening figures for all those stations. You can go upstairs and ask the boss at LBC to give you the latest radar so that you go in armed with some facts. You can't just waffle in front of a select committee. You need facts, facts, stats. And then you can make your point. Because if you look at you, Mr. Smug, if you sit there with your arms folded and say, oh, you should close down that pop music station to
- [40:35]
A
the listeners, my arms aren't folded. I'm not on the defensive at all. So anyway, so that's one area I want to go into.
- [40:42]
B
You need facts.
- [40:43]
A
The other area is them starting up operations, whether it's radio, television or print, in order to close down commercial rivals, which is what they have a track record of doing.
- [40:55]
B
Oh, yeah, that's bad. When they, you know, the gold that all the ones that the old, what they call Tony Blackburn and that they all go over to those old Gold stations or whatever they're called, and then they find themselves in competition with radio.
- [41:06]
A
Well, I mean, I'll give you an example. In about 2003, 4, I used to present a book show on One Word Radio, which is a new digital station. And it was quite popular. And then the BBC noticed that this station was rather popular, so they then set up BBC Radio 7, which then became Radio 4 Extra. Within six months, one word radio ceased to exist because they basically stole their entire audience. Now, the good news on that front is they tried to do the same with Boom Radio and Ofcom intervened and told them no, they couldn't do it because they wanted to do Radio 2 Extra, because they've effectively seeded all of their Plus 65 listeners to boom Radio. So they want to get them back by doing a new digital station. So Ofcom told them where to get off on that. So they need to be stopped.
- [41:57]
B
I am in a select Committee. I hope they've got time on their side tomorrow.
- [42:01]
A
Oh, fuck off.
- [42:02]
B
Oh, you told me to off. Let's go to a break. Okay, the select committee is still sitting and I have a couple of emails. This came to me@infoessadunlop.com Dear Dr. Dunlop, Flowers and feedback. Firstly the flowers as we call it in Switzerland. I think you are fabulous in the pod. Here we go with the brief feedback. The way you hold Ian's feet to the fire is hilarious. You don't let him get away with anything. Well done. Wow, that was well timed, wasn't it? Reading out this email. That said, I think Ian is also outstanding in my view. Any faults he might have are mere bagatelle. I willingly accept his minor character flaws. Where's the question in this email? It's from Martin. Sorry, my only feedback about the pod. More history would be neat. That's why I gave a smellfuss. Also more smart. No, you're not getting smart. No stress. He then comes up with a really long point on Canada resisting Americans and the Guernsey connection.
- [43:05]
A
Yes, there's quite a lot of of anti you on Canada coming up in these emails that I've had.
- [43:10]
B
Oh, and funnily enough, I got another message from someone who said you were totally wrong on the Canadian Railways.
- [43:15]
A
I got one from someone saying you were totally wrong on the Canadian Railways.
- [43:18]
B
Apparently the Canadian Railways are second to none.
- [43:21]
A
Ian, how dare you not what my feedback is here.
- [43:24]
B
Okay, well hit me with it.
- [43:26]
A
Anyway, this. This isn't on Canada. It's from Matthew, longtime fan of the Pod. I'm not emailing about the state of British politics, but something much more important. Ian's potential holiday. Ian, you mentioned on a recent episode of the Pod that you were thinking of visiting a trio of Baltic states. By bizarre coincidence, I was listening to this as I literally arrived home from a holiday to Latvia and Lithuania. I spent a few days each in Riga and Vilnius with my partner. First time visit for both of us and we were so pleasantly surprised with how beautiful the cities were. I don't know why I didn't expect as much, but the architecture parts. Sorry, the architecture, particularly in Vilnius was incredible with all sorts of wonderful museums and historical buildings all around as well as lovely parks and great places to eat. Couldn't recommend enough. I'd happily return to both as we definitely didn't have time to take in everything. P S Tessa, I'm sure you'd love it too if you haven't already been woman of the world.
- [44:28]
B
My little brother used to Live in Vilnius.
- [44:30]
A
Really?
- [44:31]
B
Yes. He lives in Lithuania. I didn't. He said that the women were very attractive, but he was young then. Okay, now we're going to go to William.
- [44:38]
A
Am I not allowed to comment on that?
- [44:39]
B
Okay, yes, sorry.
- [44:40]
A
I'm not actually going to the Baltic States because I start my holiday on Friday for two weeks, and I'm. Last night I decided I was going to go to Athens for the weekend until I saw what the temperature was going to be like, until I also saw what the cost of the flight was. And so I decided, no, I'll stay at home and clean out the garage.
- [44:59]
B
Right. Lucky John. Okay, so moving to William now and
- [45:03]
A
host Tessa and her husband for a barbecue.
- [45:06]
B
You and Sian Williams, I gather. And Corey. Can't wait. Good afternoon, Dr. Tessa. Professor Ian. Unfortunately, I can confirm Ian is wrong about the Canadian train system. I went on it last year from Toronto to Ottawa, then Montreal and finally Quebec City. The chains are cheaper, cleaner. Free water filling stations, good WI fi, more legroom. All seats have charging sockets and comfier seats. The food is cheaper and tastier. Only negative is compensation is less generous if delayed. I also traveled to Toronto, Montreal, and Ottaw Systems. It cost me around £1.50 to £4.50 compared to Birmingham, being normally £3.50. Not sure the point he's trying to make there. Although the best train I've ever got on went from Czechia to Slovakia in terms of price and comfort. Why don't you go to Czechia?
- [45:56]
A
I have driven through a little bit of what was then the Czech. No, it was then Czechoslovakia. And my only memory of that journey. Journey was driving through forests and the roads were lined by prostitutes.
- [46:10]
B
Okay, on to your next question. Were they exported from Romania? Funnily enough, I remember that the. The Balkan states are not Balkan, of course. Czechoslovakia, Central European. Part of that New Europe rubric. My mother and father had a good friend who left after the Prague Spring, went back to Czechoslovakia as it was then, and they went to visit them shortly after the revolution, the same summer as I went to Romania, and Mum said, oh, my daughter can't come because she's in Romania. And they went, oh, we spit at the romanians. This was 30 years ago, right?
- [46:44]
A
This was from Twitter. And it's a succession of tweets from someone called rm and I've tacked them all together. Is Tessa smoking Canadian dope? Our infrastructure, and this is from an actual Canadian. Our infrastructure is horrific. Our passenger train system is awful. We are not economically nationalistic. We're tied heavily to the us. We currently have two secessionist movements. Our health system is worse than the UK and more expensive. And the discussion about potholes was hilarious, with Tesla saying it's all about infrastructure. Just look at Canada. I guarantee we have far worse potholes than the uk, but we do have better snow removal. We sell our oil and gas to the US at a steep discount because we don't have the infrastructure. Pipelines, refineries, ports to ship direct to markets in Europe and Asia, but the US does. So the US makes a huge profit because we haven't built the infrastructure.
- [47:41]
B
Fascinating. I do find this very interesting.
- [47:47]
A
Such a liar. To our credit, our public education systems are pretty good, and most of our provincial electricity systems produce a lot of clean energy at low prices. And our banking system is really strong. Wrong. So there you have a balanced opinion.
- [48:01]
B
And finally from Martin, who gave us a personality countdown, but I forgot to read out the substantial part of his email. He sent me a second email. I am Swiss, resident in Switzerland. Paradise on earth. However, originally I'm a Guernsey man. British, but not English. I think that's worth repeating. As I'm sure you know Guernsey is a Crown dependency. Roughly 65, 000 population. Economically successful nowadays. Anyway, an interesting constitutional link with England. England. Guernsey's constitutional head is the Duke of Normandy, who in his spare time also happens to be.
- [48:35]
A
Don't know.
- [48:36]
B
Come on. Guernsey's constitutional head is the Duke of Normandy, who in his spare time also happens to be. It's a bit of a trick question.
- [48:45]
A
I don't know.
- [48:46]
B
His Majesty King Charles iii.
- [48:48]
A
Is he also the Duke of Normandy?
- [48:50]
B
Yeah, he is, I suppose.
- [48:52]
A
Bizarre.
- [48:52]
B
Yes. Because if you think William the Conqueror.
- [48:55]
A
Was there a question there?
- [48:57]
B
No, I'm just reading out the bits that interest me.
- [49:00]
A
Chris said, listening to latest podcast. Both couldn't be more wrong. I have always been Tory and have been interested but not tempted to vote Reform. On Friday, I joined Reform on the back of everything that has gone on, this has really struck at the heart of the nation. If people can't be angry and enraged by this, when are we ever allowed to express anger? Not condoning rioting, etc. I have actually had quite a few other people saying that they've joined Reform over the last few days, and quite
- [49:30]
B
a few will definitely never vote for reform because of what's happened over the last few days. So it probably balances itself out.
- [49:35]
A
Well, those. Those are people who would never have voted for reform, I would venture to suggest.
- [49:40]
B
I don't know if you look at Scarlett McGuire, the polling woman. She says that there's huge numbers of people who are concerned that voting for reform makes them look like they've got a whiff of racism about them. And if they think that there's any possible taint of that, they won't vote for the Pale Blue party headed up by the Mr. Fowler.
- [50:01]
A
I think it's called.
- [50:02]
B
Is it duck egg Blue?
- [50:03]
A
Because in Australia the equivalent of reform is. They're called the teals.
- [50:08]
B
Okay, final question.
- [50:10]
A
Tom. I've got loads here.
- [50:11]
B
I know, but we've run out of time.
- [50:12]
A
Tom says £40,000 is a massive amount of money when standing for election. £40,000 is an inconsequential amount of money when buying a Jaguar. And why would a micromanaging former ex first minister of Scotland notice? You may like her. Ian, wake up.
- [50:30]
B
I totally agree with him. And funnily enough I was listening to another podcast on this. We should point out that her husband earned 90,000. She earned approximately 200,000. Bearing in mind that Scotland is, has far more punitive higher tax brackets so their take home will only have been about 150,000 per annum. And I think therefore it would be extraordinary if she hadn't asked questions. What she really enjoyed was the extraordinary power the marriage gave her. He was the chief exec, she was the head of the government.
- [50:58]
A
Well that, that is a good point, but the 400,000 was over 10 years, so 40,000 a year. I don't think that she would necessarily given the, how busy she was and I mean the, the salt and pepper things like £2,000. I mean you look at them, you wouldn't think they were worth that. I wouldn't think they were worth that. Why should she think they were worth that?
- [51:20]
B
Let's not go back over it. Jaguars and, and motorhomes is, is what I would just repeat to you, it's, it stinks.
- [51:26]
A
Well, I'm sorry if you're in a joint, if you're in a joint income of over £200,000 which they were buying a Jaguar is not an extravagance.
- [51:34]
B
Do you know who agrees with me on, on this?
- [51:36]
A
I tried to think Rory Stewart.
- [51:38]
B
Do you know who I'm going to see on Wednesday?
- [51:39]
A
Yeah, Rory Stewart.
- [51:40]
B
Do you think he ever needs a fill in for Alistair?
- [51:44]
A
I guarantee it wouldn't be you. Oh, you're a woman after all. They don't do women on that podcast.
- [51:50]
B
No, Very sexy. The whole goal hanger setup is almost exclusively male.
- [51:53]
A
Well, Marina Hyde does one, doesn't she?
- [51:55]
B
Yeah, But I don't. That's showbiz. That doesn't really count. But that's why I. That's why I. I listen with reluctance because of course they're chummy. They're not pushing up against the abrasive opposite sex full of anger and feminist bile.
- [52:08]
A
Okay, final point with you, right, Trevor Trollope. And that is his name. Hello. Both in light of his recent statements, prostate scanning and misrepresenting Kemi Badenok is Zia Yousef fast becoming the most unlikable man in politics. But the man does have prior behavior too, in this field. A few months ago, I watched a Daily Telegraph live debate featuring Yousef James cleverly and James Murray. Murray. Murray was an orn. Entity. Cleverly. Very impressive. But Yusuf just came across as so irritable and a bit of a twat rant over. Have a great weekend. P S. Cleverly for London Mayor, PS
- [52:45]
B
PPS that speaks to my point that for every Reform voter they gained over the last week, they've also lost one.
- [52:51]
A
He. Did you see him on Kunsberg?
- [52:53]
B
Yeah, I did.
- [52:54]
A
I thought he was moderately impressive on that, but he can be quite obnoxious, I find.
- [53:00]
B
Mind, he was on a sticky wicket. I mean, there was a strength to what he represents. He's an interesting intersection to see as a man from an ethnic minority who speaks to a party that feels abrasively racist.
- [53:13]
A
That whole thing he did about Kemi Badenok and Black Lives Matter, what an absolute disgrace that was. And Nadim Zahawi, shame on him when he was on Trevor Phillips on Sunday. I mean, I've always liked Nadeem and still do, but. But I'm sorry, you can't get away with that sort of thing when people can easily point out what she actually said
- [53:35]
B
in the way in which they redacted what she said and mis. Deliberately. They didn't misinform. They disinformed the public. That speaks to 1930s propaganda. And I don't hold. Barred. It does.
- [53:45]
A
I'm not going. I think all this 1930s shit is just ridiculous. But it's disgraceful, whatever it is. Now listen, I've got loads of other emails here which we will do on Wednesday. And also if you'd like to add to our emails where politics meets historyglobal.com or leave questions on the Where Politics Meets History Instagram page. And we look forward to your company a day early this week at the
- [54:10]
B
end of the week, because I'm flirting with Rory, I'm burying the dead, and Corey will be back from his.
- [54:15]
A
Do you Think Rory's susceptible to your float flirting?
- [54:19]
B
I'm not flirting with Rory. Did I say I was going to flirt with Rory? Did I just.
- [54:22]
A
You just did.
- [54:22]
B
That was subconscious. I didn't even know what I was saying then.
- [54:25]
A
Well, that's true. What you intend to do.
- [54:26]
B
Oh, my goodness.
- [54:27]
A
You intend to seduce Rory.
- [54:28]
B
Stuart, was I having a fantasy? No, it's not possible. I just remembered it's Rory Stewart. Shut up, you.
- [54:34]
A
Anyway, if it was Alastair, I'm gonna
- [54:36]
B
see if he'll give me a free ticket for his book event in Richmond.
- [54:39]
A
I'm doing a book event in Richmond on the 18th of July at the how to Academy with General Sir Richard Barrons. We're going to be talking about what makes a good general and the world situation, of course, which I'm a total
- [54:52]
B
expert on now to prove that I'm really nice to you.
- [54:54]
A
And the tickets are 35 to 45.
- [54:56]
B
Bloody hell. Are they really?
- [54:57]
A
That's a fortune. That's a fortune.
- [54:59]
B
Time to go.
- [55:01]
A
And the tickets. And a lot of them have been sold.
- [55:03]
B
Oh, my good people are ridiculous.
- [55:05]
A
I know. They're mad.
- [55:07]
B
Shall I end by saying I hate you?
- [55:08]
A
Anyway, tickets@iandale.com events.
- [55:11]
B
Oh, I hate you. Just let's conform to stereotype. I hate him.
- [55:16]
A
You've been listening to a global original podcast. If you've enjoyed it, please do leave a review wherever you get your podcasts from. I host four other podcasts which I hope you might like to try too. Ian Dale All Talk, which is an interview podcast every week. Presidents, prime ministers, monarchs and dictators, which again, is a weekly podcast covering, at the moment, 64 dictators, one a week and cross question and Ian Dale the whole show. And of course, you can listen to my LBC show last from 7 to 10pm Monday to Thursday on FM in London on digital radio, or all over the world on global player or your smart speaker. See you next time. Goodbye.
- [55:58]
C
Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to to clog hvac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-granger click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.