133. Rory Days

Summary

Podcast Summary
Where Politics Meets History
Episode 133: Rory Days
Date: June 11, 2026
Host: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Iain and Tessa dive into the turbulent current events in Northern Ireland, examine the enduring complexities of British and Irish identity, and reflect on their own interactions with public figures such as Rory Stewart. With their trademark banter and sharp analysis, they connect today's headlines to Britain's historical patterns, from riots and immigration tensions to the role of the countryside in national identity. Tessa shares highlights from her interview with Rory Stewart, challenging Conservative nostalgia and grappling with the contradictions of Britishness, while Iain contemplates everything from farming subsidies to the evolving responsibilities of the BBC.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Northern Ireland—Riots, Immigration, History, and Identity

[00:02–00:32] & [15:01–29:54]

• The episode opens with urgent concern over recent riots in Northern Ireland, drawing stark parallels to those of the 1981 "long hot summer" (Brixton, Toxteth, Handsworth, Bristol). The violence is seen as both a warning and a reminder of the region’s fragile peace.

  • Iain: "Once people do this sort of thing once, they then feel licensed to do it again." [00:31]
  • Tessa: "I always think that Northern Ireland is the most extraordinary success story of late in the British Isles...this is a reminder of their unique past and how fragile the peace is." [00:32; 27:26]

• Tessa explains the recent surge in asylum seekers as a direct outgrowth of Brexit and Britain's exit from the EU's Dublin Agreement.

  • Tessa: "Britain is no longer part of that agreement... you can try your luck in Britain...which is why we've seen a slight spike in numbers since Brexit." [17:58]

• The hosts dissect the complicated responses from both nationalist and loyalist leaders in response to the rioting and explore how historic identity politics and practical issues (like housing availability) amplify tensions.

  • Iain: "Refreshing to know that somebody who at least tolerated IRA violence is condemning this." [19:57]
  • Tessa: "There's more space and more accommodation available in the loyalist communities. So that's where most migrants were housed. And that's another trig point." [21:45]

• The discussion surfaces the impact and dangers of external influences (including far-right UK groups, social media amplification by figures like Elon Musk and Tommy Robinson).

  • Iain: "Rupert Lowe has to take some responsibility...being amplified on X through the algorithm dictated by Elon Musk." [23:24]
  • Tessa (quoting MP Claire Hanna): "'What you're seeing is a race based pogrom. We're seeing men going door to door to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the color of their skin. That's scary stuff.'" [24:50]

• Tessa and Iain debate the risk of similar violence spreading to mainland Britain, considering Britain’s history of major urban unrest.

  • Iain: "I have a great fear now that we are going to see the equivalent of the 1981 summer riots." [26:18]
  • Tessa: "I actually don't think there will be contagion because I think there's been suitable levels of horror across the board at what's happening." [27:08]

• The conversation concludes with a reflection on the delicate balance of peace in Northern Ireland, noting the ever-present undercurrents of sectarian violence and identity-driven unrest.

  • Tessa: "There are elements within society over there who grew up living the reality of violence against the other...there is...that itch that hasn't been scratched. And this is an excuse." [28:37]
  • Iain: "It has been remarkable since 1998 how peace has broken out, but there are all of these tensions simmering away." [31:09]

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2. Britishness & the Rural Ideal: The Rory Stewart Interview

[01:49–14:51]; [31:37–44:22]

• Tessa shares impressions from her interview with Rory Stewart, recalling both personal and historical intersections, from her father's working-class Highland roots to Nicola Sturgeon’s formative experiences.

  • Tessa: "It does make sense. I'm about to hand the baton to you. And he said, that's precisely how Nicola Sturgeon felt." [07:04]
  • Tessa: "Nicola Sturgeon's grandfather worked for a laird...and that interested me in that radicalism...informing her politics." [08:15]

• Tessa recounts her daughter’s (Mara) perspective on Stewart ("I can't bear it when he mentions his children...too personal") and discusses modern British identity through generational lenses. [04:44–05:21]

• On Rory Stewart’s view of Britain:

  • He champions the preservation of small-scale farming, seeing it as the core of Britain’s rural-pastoral identity.
  • Tessa challenges this, noting Britain's deeply urban and industrial character, questioning the sense of funneling subsidies into a nostalgic idea.
    • Tessa: "Britain is uniquely industrialized, and disproportionate numbers of our population...live in urban centers. So Rory, that's his idea of an idealized, anachronistic Britain. But it's not one that I see today." [12:08]

• Iain defends the uniqueness of England’s countryside in the national imagination, while Tessa points out that most tourists head to urban centers, not the "muddy" countryside.

  • Iain: "I think English countryside is quite unique in many ways." [13:25]
  • Tessa: "Most tourists go to urban centers, they don't go and walk in our muddy." [13:43]

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3. The Contradictions of British Policy: Agriculture, Sustainability, and the Future

[31:37–44:22]

• They debate the economic rationale and symbolism of farming subsidies, with Iain drawing on his own family’s agricultural history and the issue of food resilience.

  • Iain: "If you don't subsidize agriculture in some way...what happens to the land?" [33:31]
  • Tessa: "A small farm is less economically viable than a bigger farm...it's picturesque, but I'm not sure it's necessarily...financially viable." [37:03]

• Tessa pushes on the reality of climate change and the likely shift to lab-grown or vat-produced protein, casting Rory Stewart’s rural ideal as increasingly "a museum piece."

  • Tessa: "Rory's idea of what England was will increasingly become a museum piece." [41:50]

• Both acknowledge the generational shift in attitudes to food, technology, and climate—a challenge for politicians ill-prepared for rapidly advancing realities like artificial intelligence.

  • Iain: "Even though I wanted to be one, some of the decisions that they're going to have to take over the next 10 or 20 years...I don't understand them." [42:09]

• Rory Stewart's attitude to contradictions, as noted and critiqued by both hosts:

  • Tessa: "He then in the second breath says...we must embrace AI. These giant energy guzzling data centers...I asked him, at which point he threw up his hands and said, 'I all about contradictions. You know, it's okay to be about contradictions. Politics is full of contradictions.'" [42:49]
  • Iain: "That's such a lazy argument on his part...Well, Rory, which one is it? Which road do you want to go down on? And you ask him that and he throws his hands up...and starts giggling." [43:21]

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4. Quick Fire: BBC, Select Committee Tales, and Listener Questions

[44:37–59:24]

• Iain dishes on an awkward select committee appearance regarding the BBC charter, including a run-in with MP Rupa Huq and his critique of legacy programming and resource allocation.

  • Iain (on BBC priorities): "Would you rather spend £75 million a year on that or stop the cuts in news and current affairs?" [56:55]

• The hosts entertain a listener prompt on misunderstood prime ministers:

  • Iain: "Liz Truss would argue her. And I think there is a modicum of truth in that."
  • Tessa: "I think Gordon Brown in some ways was a bit misunderstood...He just became the sort of fagbot of Blairism." [48:30]

• Expanded listener Q&A touches on Canada, Israel, and Australia, offering international context on historical memory and perceptions.

  • Tessa: "One of the reasons why there's so much discontent...we're not used to having a diminishing pot of money. There is less to go around..." [57:40]

• Memorable moment: Tessa shares a listener’s joy in male vulnerability, while Iain gets fact-checked on Australian politics.

  • Iain: "...I have to admit that I was completely wrong." [52:15]
  • Tessa: "I love it when a woman calls out Ian." [52:18]

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On contemporary violence in Northern Ireland:

  • Tessa (quoting Claire Hanna): "What you're seeing is a race based pogrom. We're seeing men going door to door to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the color of their skin. That's scary stuff." [24:50]
  • Iain: "Once people do this sort of thing once, they then feel licensed to do it again." [00:31; 27:14]

• On Rory Stewart's philosophy:

  • Tessa: "He is what you want him to be." [44:16]
  • Tessa (on Rory): "He champions the preservation of small-scale farming...But I found it extraordinary...that in one breath he spoke to his conservatism with a small C...then in the second breath says we must embrace AI. These giant energy guzzling data centers..." [31:37–42:49]

• On British identity:

  • Tessa: "Britain is uniquely industrialized, and disproportionate numbers of our population...live in urban centers...that's his idea of an idealized, anachronistic Britain. But it's not one that I see today." [12:08]
  • Iain: "I think English countryside is quite unique in many ways." [13:25]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:02] – Immediate opening: parallels between current NI riots and 1981 unrest.
• [15:01] – Deep dive begins into the recent violence in Northern Ireland.
• [17:58] – Tessa’s analysis of Brexit and the Dublin Agreement’s impact on asylum patterns.
• [21:45] – Explaining practical housing and identity differences in NI communities.
• [24:50] – Claire Hanna's quote on "race based pogrom."
• [27:08–28:37] – Discussing potential contagion of riots in mainland Britain.
• [31:37] – Launch into the agricultural subsidies, British identity, and Rory Stewart’s views.
• [41:50] – Tessa predicts Britain's traditional rural ideals will become a “museum piece.”
• [44:16] – The contradictions of Rory Stewart.
• [51:03; 52:15] – Fact-checking and correction on Australian politics.
• [56:55] – Iain on the BBC’s budget choices.

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Tone & Style

• Highly conversational, witty, and sometimes combative—but always rooted in deep affection and respect for the subject matter and each other.
• The hosts alternate between historical analysis, sharp critiques, and personal anecdotes, ensuring the discussion remains dynamic and accessible while touching on serious societal questions.

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Summary Takeaway:
This episode weaves together urgent current affairs with timeless debates about identity, memory, and the meanings of Britishness. The hosts blend jokes and jabs with sincere reflection, challenging each other and their listeners to consider the contradictions in politics, policy, and personal experience.

Transcript

[Corey]

This is a global Player original podcast. We need to underscore just how dangerous this has been. People are being burnt out of their houses.

[Ian]

Well, people are being dragged out of their houses. I have a great fear now that we are going to see the equivalent of the 1981 summer riots. Do you remember those? Brixton was basically torched. Toxteth was torched. Areas in Birmingham, Handsworth I think, as well. Bristol. Once people do this sort of thing once, they then feel licensed to do it again.

[Corey]

I always think that Northern Ireland is the most extraordinary success story of late in the British Isles. But I think this is a reminder of their unique past and how fragile the piece is. The way in which it's escalated. I think that's what's really taken me by surprise.

[Ian]

Very exciting day today because guess what?

[Corey]

What?

[Ian]

I have got the proof copy of my book.

[Corey]

Oh, yes. We're starting with a book club.

[Ian]

Corey, this is my most important book ever.

[Corey]

I know, it does look wonderful. It's in West Ham colours and the title is have I said Too Much? And you can be assured that by the time the book is launched, because this is a pre proof copy, Ian will have said far too much about his pride and joy, his surrogate baby, which he's been birthing for how many years?

[Ian]

Actually, not too long. I think I only started it in January 2025.

[Corey]

Okay, so it's very long for a time span so short.

[Ian]

Well, the time span is my entire life.

[Corey]

Yes, well, I saw that. I think there's 100 pages per decade, approximately.

[Ian]

No, not quite. It's not 600 pages long.

[Corey]

It was interesting because I've just come from the home of Rory Stewart.

[Ian]

Yeah. But I haven't finished talking about this yet, but.

[Corey]

And I was sitting there with his book.

[Ian]

Which you hadn't read.

[Corey]

Which I did read, of course, prior to the Internet.

[Ian]

No, you didn't, because you only got it yesterday.

[Corey]

That's. And actually the reason I was able to read it is because compared to your book, how many writing in his book is so much bigger.

[Ian]

How many pages?

[Corey]

Well, it doesn't matter how many pages because the writing's really big. It's super easy to read, but relative to yours, it's fewer pages and the writing is twice the size.

[Ian]

Well done for saying fewer, not less.

[Corey]

Thank you.

[Ian]

Brownie. Point for that. How many pages is it?

[Corey]

It is 319 big letters.

[Ian]

Oh, mine's 390.

[Corey]

Yeah, 19.

[Ian]

Mine's 430.

[Corey]

Right. I mean,

[Ian]

I like to give good value, clearly.

[Corey]

I. I always think less is more, but that's the inherent tension of the podcast.

[Ian]

Shall I read you the dedication page?

[Corey]

Okay.

[Ian]

It's not to you.

[Corey]

No, I. I gathered for.

[Ian]

John.

[Corey]

Is that your husband?

[Ian]

Yeah. Have I said too much? There's nothing more I can think of to say to you, but all you have to do is look at me to know that every word is true.

[Corey]

Beautiful. It's like one of.

[Ian]

Do you know where that comes from?

[Corey]

It's like a rhyming couplet in a card. A birthday card?

[Ian]

No, it's from Don't Cry for Me, Argentina, written by Sir Tim Rice.

[Corey]

Okay. I think it had the rhyming couplet thing, though. I think I got that kind of vibe, don't you? I think that might be ripped now and put in greetings cards. Ian.

[Ian]

I think I did an Instagram reel singing it, don't you?

[Corey]

I think you started something. Will we let people know?

[Ian]

Anyway, back to Rory Stewart.

[Corey]

I'm going to just.

[Ian]

Actually, let's tell people we're going to talk about on the pod. You go.

[Corey]

I think there's some really important historic and political stuff to unpack about what's going down at the moment in Northern Ireland. I spent quite a long time there about 18 months ago researching war and the way they remember war. And actually there is so much contested identity issues. This. It couldn't be worse. It's being inflamed externally and internally, and I really feel for the majority of the province who are biddable, peaceful people who thought they'd put the stuff behind them. But let's dig into what it tells us about the identity of Northern Ireland in the next section of the pod.

[Ian]

Let's do that and we'll maybe have a word about Kemi Badenok's speech about the Equalities act and stop and search and all of that.

[Corey]

I did also a deep dive in what it means to be British to interview Rory Stewart and I'd like to unpack that a little bit, if we may. If we may now move to what you term as fluff and as Mara, daughter not allowed to mention her, by the way, says, I wouldn't listen to a pod with fluff. So I always reluctantly try and de fluff my fluff to make sure that it's acceptable.

[Ian]

Does Mara have a sense of humour?

[Corey]

Well, funnily enough, she gave me the absolute winning question for Rory Stewart today. I. I'm always a bit scared to cross the threshold into her room, but I did put my head around the door and I said, I'm going to interview Rory Stuart, presuming she wouldn't, might not have even heard of him because, you know, teenagers live in their own little world. And she said, oh yeah, I know who he is. And I said, oh, what do you think of him? I occasionally listen to his podcast. She said, I can't bear it when he mentions his children. They're too personal, she said, and refer to their private lives too much. And in my head I'm thinking, shit, they do it like a tenth as much as us, which I blame entirely on you.

[Ian]

Does she not listen to our podcast then?

[Corey]

Well, I don't encourage it, Ian, for obvious reasons.

[Ian]

No, I can understand that.

[Corey]

It would lead to Third World War. Anyway, she said, but if you want a question for him, ask him about his AI databases and that will come to it. When we're unpacking identity, British identity stuff was the. Turned out to be the killer.

[Ian]

How did you get on with him?

[Corey]

Well, I was very flattered that I was allowed across his rarefied threshold in central London. And I was also really intrigued to meet him. My late father, who was a factor on a Highland estate. I remember he died about 20 years ago and prior to that when he was quite ill and sort of the way ill people do, they listen intently to the radio. He shushed me because this man was on the radio and he said, this very impressive man speaking. And lo and behold, it was Rory Stewart, I think had just walked across Asia, 600 kilometers, was on some prestigious Radio 4 program. And at the time, in my sort of, you know, young feminist, Umbridgey way, I was like, oh, God, typical dad, you know, this posh sounding Scot speaking to my late father's idea of what it is to be masculine and heroic. But it's interesting because I think he has the capacity to speak in perfect sentences. Doesn't mean they all make sense, but it is a real skill and I think it's why he's become a world famous podcaster and is a better podcaster than he was a politician. So I was riveted to meet him and it was fascinating because I was telling him about over the tea he was making me. I noticed he drank herbal and I went for builders. But anyway, as a side issue, we

[Ian]

were talking the class difference.

[Corey]

Well, or I think I'd give him a run for his money. But anyway, we're not going to have a class standoff together. Anyway, back to accept, I pointed out that, you know, my father worked for a laird and I said the point that my late Father made was that men are always much more classless, I. E. Dad was able to get on with the laird and the other workers on the estate in a way that the women. So whether it's the woman who cleaned the holiday houses, my mother who ran the holiday houses, or Rose, the laird's wife, had a more fractious or a less easy relationship. And dad always said that women were more hung up on class than men. And I would argue that's actually about the secondary status of women, so scrabbling over the scraps, as it were. My father chose to be there, my mother was there in hock to my father. We were talking about this and. And this does make sense. I'm about to hand the baton to you. And he said, that's precisely how Nicola Sturgeon felt. Lo and behold, we were evicted from the house. We got a letter. Not evicted, but within six months of dad dying, the house we'd lived in for 40 years, we were told to get out of by the laird. And Nicola Sturgeon's grandfather worked for a

[Ian]

laird and in the village that my grandfather was born in.

[Corey]

Right. And a formative experience, and I didn't realize this, and one that didn't dictate the political course that Sturgeon subsequently took, but definitely informed it was the stain or the indignity of her late grandmother having to leave the home because the laird had sold it, in which her grandfather had lived for so long and toiled for his lord and master. And that interested me in that radicalism, Sturgeon's radical. I think I understand that. That bit of her, I'm sad it's packaged in an independence form, but it made me feel fond of you briefly, Ian, because you like Nicola. And I found something I can like about her.

[Ian]

Well, thank goodness for that. It's taken you a long time, but did you like Rory?

[Corey]

Well, funnily enough, on the question of likability, you may recall that you were worried he didn't necessarily like you.

[Ian]

I'm not sure I'd worried that he didn't like me. I mean, we've had a little. The odd contretemps, I suppose, on occasion.

[Corey]

So I asked him, oh, God, yeah. I said, ian wants to know if you like him. I said, you didn't say that words to that.

[Ian]

You did not say that words around

[Corey]

that sort of effect. And he said he really liked you. There you are. He said he really liked you. And do you know what I then said at the end of that? I said, I don't know why Ian cares Whether you like him or not, I think he refers you to me,

[Ian]

honestly, because he said to Alastair that he thinks I don't like him.

[Corey]

Well, now you both really like each other. But I think he likes me less because I was like, first of all, I didn't know why my dad wanted to listen to you on the radio and I don't know why Ian cares what you think anyway, he was fine. But he did set an alarm at the beginning of the interview.

[Ian]

Did he?

[Corey]

I said, you don't need to set an alarm.

[Ian]

That's a bit weird because he was

[Corey]

interviewing Steve Rosenberg, the one.

[Ian]

Did you tell him that? I've already done a 90 minute interview with Steve Rosenberg.

[Corey]

I didn't want, I didn't. I didn't want to block your copy. Book Ian and act big, the big man. Do you know what I mean? I'd established you two like each other. I thought that was enough. But I said, don't worry, I've got to go too because I'm doing a podcast with Ian Dale. So I just pushed back and I said, you don't need to set the alarm because I'll be out of here to do my podcast with Ian Dale. And I was out before that bloody alarm.

[Ian]

He said, yeah, you don't want to upset him. You know what he can be like.

[Corey]

No, but he. There's a fondness. He's. He laughed and he was coquettish, you know, I made him. It was a little bit almost flirty, that moment. It was a warmer moment. Anyway, we're going to unpack a British Identity according to Rory Stuart and why I take issue in umbrage with it in a bit. His book I enjoyed reading.

[Ian]

I've got his previous book to that which I haven't read yet, but everyone tells me it's a really good read. So because I've got two weeks off work, over the next two weeks I'm really going to do a lot of reading and I want to read Catherine Mayer's book on called Divide and Rule, all about eight female royals, which I think you might like this as well. Apparently there's quite a few scoops in it, so I've got that on my list to read. I'm going to start reading CHIP Channel's Diaries, Volume three that Simon Heifer edited. I just had lunch with Simon Heifer in the House of Lords, Lord Blackwater as he now is. So I'm really looking forward to having

[Corey]

some downtime on Rory Stewart's previous book. I think it's the One where he takes his very old father, who is very high up in intelligence.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Corey]

And.

[Ian]

Well, I think Rory was the spy at one point, wasn't he?

[Corey]

Well, he denies that. And we wouldn't know anyway if he was.

[Ian]

He denies it in a non denial way.

[Corey]

Anyway. His Lairdish style father, who was high up in intelligence, he took him on a walk along Hadrian's Wall when he was 89. So Rory did most of the walking and his father sort of got in the car occasionally. But I think that is the. The book you have. It's a Middlemarch or not. No, that's my one's Middle Land. No, but there's another one almost something like that.

[Ian]

It's got a very strange picture of him on the front looking as if he's marching something.

[Corey]

That exactly was. To that effect. Or it might be politics on the Edge.

[Ian]

Anyway, he's written Politics on the Edge.

[Corey]

Well, then it's totally different from the one about walking Hadrian's Wall. But the question that I want to unpack later in the show is Rory said he believes in agricultural subsidies because, you know, it's about preserving the traditional idea of what Britain is. And I don't know if I lean into that idea of Britain being this Stanley Baldwin the corn creek singing and the plow in the field. Actually, we were the first country to industrialize. Britain is uniquely industrialized, and disproportionate numbers of our population relative to equivalent economies live in urban centers. So. So Rory, that's his idea of an idealized, anachronistic Britain. But it's not one that I see today. And I don't know if it's actually one that we should necessarily be spending billions of pounds preserving.

[Ian]

Well, I think if you. If you asked a foreigner what they. What are the three things that they think about Britain in terms of visual things? They'd probably say Big Ben. They might say have another building or sort of, you know, you're doing a movement now which is not very attractive. About bare skins.

[Corey]

No, I'm putting a crown on my head.

[Ian]

Oh, right, okay.

[Corey]

The royal family.

[Ian]

Yeah, yeah. But I think they'd also think about English countryside, because I think English countryside is quite unique in many ways.

[Corey]

It can't be quite unique. It's either unique or it is.

[Ian]

Oh, I know exactly. No, I don't take umbrage because I know exactly what you mean. Anyway, I hate myself for saying it. Now.

[Corey]

I disagree with you. It's your idea of an England, but actually, most tourists go to urban centers they don't go and walk in our muddy.

[Ian]

Is that really true? York, Bath, London up to a point. Edinburgh up to a point. But I mean, I've got lots of German friends who come to this country virtually every summer and they'll go to West Wales, they'll go to Cornwall, they don't go to London.

[Corey]

At Where Politics Meets History on the Instagram. Do let me know what you think. The top three things. Tourists associate England with England, by the way, because Scotland's very definitely the kilt, the bagpipe.

[Ian]

But I think Scotland's the same in some ways in that if you think of Scotland, yes, you do think of those things, but you also think of

[Corey]

the Highlands, maybe, maybe that Victoria, Arnold sort of flood and mountain, maybe, maybe. But that's. We are in the skin of the nation. We're talking about externals coming to our country and what their takeaways are. And I think that's very different. And I bet my bottom dollar it's not a word's worth or a hardy.

[Ian]

We have lots of externals listening to the podcast. So if you're not British and you live abroad and you come to Britain on the odd occasion, what are the three things that you think of?

[Corey]

First, at Where Politics Meets History. And now, for the love of God and my daughter, I think that's enough fluff break.

[Ian]

So what are we going to do now? Because you're in charge.

[Corey]

Am I flattered by that? This unfolding more than tension rioting in Northern Ireland in the wake of an attack in a particularly vulnerable, very poor part of Belfast, the north of Belfast, within the Catholic or Nationalist perimeter by meters, I believe. But, but actually the reaction has some of it, or the way in which it's been cast through the different political prisons has I think been more inflamed within the. The nationalist or the loyalist community. And I wanted to speak to the history of it. But first of all, let's just look at the unfolding politics.

[Ian]

Well, it's one of those things where you think Northern Ireland does not have a massive immigrant population quite big growing fast. Well, it may be growing, but compared to most urban centres in Great Britain, the percentage of particularly ethnic minority immigrants in Belfast is not as high as it is, say in Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, wherever.

[Corey]

Okay. But I would say relative to their population over the last few years, it's actually been growing very fast. And there were a series of vigilante attacks on the Roma community just last year to the extent that certain other minority ethnic communities were putting up. We are not Roma And I, I kind of keyed into that because of course, many of the Roma are Romanian and they were once again the whipping boy.

[Ian]

Well, many of them are Southern Irish.

[Corey]

Well, actually, no, the, the Roma in question were from Bug.

[Ian]

Okay, no, but I mean, I'm just pointing out that some, I mean, a lot, A lot of the travelers in England are actually Irish travelers.

[Corey]

So I wanted to first of all unpack this idea of, of asylum claiming asylum and what the DUP leader called out as the open and porous border, referring to the one between the north and the south. Now, what's fascinating about this is the implications of being an asylum seeker and why. Actually, we have seen asylum seeking numbers go up. And the reason for this is actually, and I know you're going to hate me, but it's unavoidable, is a direct cause of Brexit and the Dublin Agreement, which we're no longer part of.

[Ian]

Well, we've had this discussion before and I don't believe that is true at all. Because if you look at the numbers of people who were ever deported under the Dublin Agreement, it was minimal. I think in the last year it was 13 or something like that. Any normal border arrangement between two different countries and we forget the history we are two different countries, you would have some sort of border check. Well, clearly, because of the history, there is no border check. And that's why anyone could do that, whether it's by train, car or plane.

[Corey]

So can we now go back to the Dublin Agreement and why. I think it is critical to the reason why we're increasingly seen as a sort of last chance saloon for asylum seekers in Europe. Under the Dublin Agreement, you were registered in whichever country you first arrived in in the eu. Whether at the time when we were in the EU it was Britain, or often it was Italy, for example, or Greece, etc. And then the asylum seekers were distributed in a, in a quota fashion across the 28 respective members, but Britain is no longer part of that agreement. In other words, if you're an asylum seeker and you fail to get asylum in one of those countries, what you can do is then go to Britain outside of this quoted arrangement and try your luck in Britain. Which is what's happening, which is why we've seen a slight spike in numbers since Brexit and why the Dublin Agreement doesn't matter. It's not just people being deported through the Dublin Agreement, it's actually about being registered and accepted in the first place.

[Ian]

But that's. I don't see the logic of that. I Mean, if you're saying, if you agree with me, that very few people returned out of the Dublin Agreement, I don't see what you've said makes any sense.

[Corey]

Because if you have not been able to claim asylum under the Dublin Agreement and you want to try your luck in Britain, it means you can have a go there too, because it's no longer part of the EU, so. So if you've been rejected within an EU country or asylum, then you're rejected from 27. But because Britain's an outlier and we're no longer part of the group, you can try your luck in Britain. Let's look at the responses from the two different leaders. So Sinn Fein run Stallman, Michelle o'. Neill. Absolutely. Understandably, no truck with the vigilante, rioting, hurling bricks, response on the streets, the triggering of violence, that this outrageous incident.

[Ian]

Refreshing to know that somebody who at least tolerated IRA violence is condemning this.

[Corey]

And then on the other side, the deputy leader, of course, a loyalist, I think she's dup, isn't she? Emma?

[Ian]

Deputy First Minister?

[Corey]

Yeah, she very much, I mean, likewise horrified at what's happened, but took a very different note, focusing on, you know, the arrival of people, we don't know where they're coming from, looking and speaking much more to the open and porous borders idea. And I thought there's some interesting stuff to unpack there about where the identities of the two historic communities sit and why it is that Michelle o' Neill clearly felt politically her no truck with the rioting would work for the majority of her Catholic community, not only, but including the majority of her support. And that is, of course, and I was listening to a fascinating historian on the. On this, that that speaks to the nationalist community, identifying historically with the underdog, with the oppressed. We know they play out both communities a proxy war, if you like, through the lens of what's going on in the Middle east, where you get the nationalist community leaning far more heavily towards Palestine and the cause of Palestine and flying the respective flags, and likewise the loyalist community doing the opposite. And there are also some really practical reasons why the migrant influx has impacted more on loyalist communities, and that's because of available housing. The nationalist community have always been more overcrowded, poorer. There's more space and more accommodation available in the loyalist communities. So that's where most migrants were housed. And that's another trig point.

[Ian]

But do you not think that. Well, all the reaction I've seen is it doesn't matter whether it's nationalist or loyalist community, they've all reacted in the way that you would expect any normal person to react to condemn the attack. I think politicians from either side of the divide have called for restraint. And that's where I think these despicable violent scenes last night demonstrated that a lot of these, the people that were perpetrating this, they were probably the usual suspects. I think there inevitably would have been people from the far right in the UK who probably traveled to Belfast specifically to take part in these riots. I think there would have been people from either from nationalist and loyalist paramilitary communities who missed the action of the sort of 20 years ago. They probably got involved a bit. And I mean, I'm sure there is a far right aspect to Northern Ireland

[Corey]

politics and also externally being triggered. Musk, oh yeah, said on his X platform ahead of the disorder. This is last night. Bins were set alight was within the Unionist area, if you like. There were masked individuals, etc. He wrote, and I quote, mask on X. Only by protesting in caps repeatedly and loudly will there be any change. And he shared a post from Tommy Robertson listing dozens of locations where people could protect.

[Ian]

Well, and I think Rupert Lowe has to take some responsibility here. The leader of restore who is being amplified on X through the algorithm dictated by Elon Musk. And he initially. I don't know whether it was just him or whether other people thought this as well. They said the guy was from Somalia and then in the end he had to admit that he was wrong. It's from Sudan. This is where so many people in his part of the political spectrum seem to delight to rush to judgment before they have to then retract. And I'm not saying Rupert Lowe's was in any way responsible for instigating these riots, but when Elon Musk uses language like that, and I mean, I don't. People have every right to protest.

[Corey]

I want to also.

[Ian]

But when he says loudly. Well, you can interpret that in a number of ways also.

[Corey]

I think we need to underscore just how dangerous this has been. People are being burnt out of their houses.

[Ian]

Well, people are being dragged out of their houses. And I think that they were supposedly initially going after everybody who they thought came from Africa in a particular area of Belfast and their houses were being burnt down. But there were plenty of white families whose houses were being brought burnt down.

[Corey]

I mean, this is what Claire Hannah,

[Ian]

who's a wonderful politician by the way,

[Corey]

Belfast mp, leader of the Social Democratic and Labour Party, she said, and I quote her, what you're seeing is a race based pogrom we're seeing men going door to door to get the foreigners out based exclusively on the color of their skin. That's scary, Stu. The one redeeming which we haven't seen

[Ian]

in England, I have to say.

[Corey]

No, but. But we know about. I think that Northern Ireland has this extraordinarily complex and violent past. It is a very fragile peace process. It is a lived experience of vigilantism, thuggishness and murder that is within very much living history. And the one thing that we do know, therefore, is that the police force, the psr, is extraordinarily well equipped to manage this in a way that I think would really challenge some of the

[Ian]

British police forces, because I don't see this. Well, I think if this was a nationalist loyalist thing, then I think you're absolutely right, but it isn't. I mean, this never happened in the Troubles. This never happened where you would have IRA terrorists hauling loyalist supporters out of their houses, which happened to be in predominantly nationalist areas, and vice versa. It never happened that loyalist terrorists were doing the same to Catholics, pulling people out of their houses and then burning.

[Corey]

A lot of violence on the streets, though.

[Ian]

Well, there was violence on the streets, there was bombs. But this sort of thing, as far as I'm aware, did not happen. And I think that's the worrying thing. And are we going to now see a repeat of this sort of thing in mainland Britain? And I think it's entirely possible that we will. I have a great fear now that we are going to see the equivalent of the 1981 summer riots. Do you remember those? Well, you wouldn't do, because you would have been about seven, but when Brixton was basically torched, Toxteth was torched, areas in Birmingham, Handsworth, I think, as well Bristol. In many of our major cities, there was rioting. Not to the extent that people were being dragged out of their houses, but I remember it very well because it was the summer of the royal wedding. It was etched in my mind.

[Corey]

I actually don't think there will be contagion because I think there's been suitable levels of horror across the board at what's happening.

[Ian]

But the thing is, once people do this sort of thing, once they then feel license to do it again, as explained.

[Corey]

And this is not to. I always think that Northern Ireland is the most extraordinary success story of late in the British Isles, but I think that this is a reminder of their unique past and how fragile the piece is. And I don't think the equivalent would perhaps be replicated in Maybe I'm naive in such a. A dark and quickly violent way. The way in which it's escalated. I think that's what's really taken me by surprise. It went from zero to red so quickly over there. And I think. I think that. That I'm hoping, I suppose, that that is unique to the province and can be dealt with.

[Ian]

Why should it? Why should it be unique? We've seen what happened in Southampton last week. We've had. I mean, this. This is different in some ways, but not in every way. And I. I mean, say there's another incident in the next couple of weeks in Manchester and I. I can, I can absolutely. I'm not predicting it. I hope it won't happen, but I think we've all got to be alive to it. And I think the authorities and the politicians have to be alive to it.

[Corey]

I. I suppose what I'm trying to say is because I don't want it to seem like, I think, oh, in. In Northern Ireland, you know, they are more racist. I'm not saying that at all, but I think they're lear. There's a group, there are elements within society over there who grew up living the reality of violence against the other. The community. The other community they were pitched against. And there is a bit like football hooliganism, that itch that hasn't been scratched. And this is an excuse.

[Ian]

Well, there is.

[Corey]

Scratch that itch.

[Ian]

But let's also remember what's going on in the south, where in Dublin there are protests against immigration. I mean, in Dublin, I mean, Ireland itself, the Republic has been very welcoming to immigrants because they want to bump up their population. I mean, we talked about this, I think in the last episode.

[Corey]

They're not. The level of violence you don't see

[Ian]

in this episode, you haven't seen anything like this, but you have seen things being set on fire. You have seen a bit of violence, not to this level, but that's not to say that it couldn't happen in the south if there were a similar incident.

[Corey]

And a final thought before Corey calls time on this. I also wonder. We know that long term they want, certainly the nationalist community, a poll for the reunification of Ireland. And there's a lot of thinking around.

[Ian]

Some of them do not all of

[Corey]

them do, around whether the south would actually want to take on the north. And I think this is a chance for certain parts of the loyalist community in particular to remind the south of why they would never want unification of the island and therefore confirming their current status quo with Britain.

[Ian]

Well, it Might be interesting in a future pod to look at this whole issue of reunification and whether a. It could work. I mean, some really good books come out in the last couple of years on this, how reunification could work or might it not work? And there's been a lot of polling done within the nationalist and loyalist communities in the north, and it's not always what you would expect it to show, because you have a lot of people in the north who are Catholics who say, yeah, in theory, my heart says, yeah, I'd quite like a united Ireland, but I don't want to pay €60 for a doctor's appointment.

[Corey]

No, of course, there are all those practical elements, but I think the occasional reminder last year against the Roma, this year against seemingly anyone of a different colour, a reminder that there's a serious hardcore small minority in the north where guns are just. And knives are just below the surface

[Ian]

and violent intent and probably always will be. I mean, it's a horrible thing to say, but. And I think it has been remarkable since 1998 how peace has broken out, but there are all the. All of these tensions simmering away. What does it mean to be English? You can't answer that question because you're a Scot and I'm only 3/4 English.

[Corey]

Well, interestingly, Rory Stewart's a Scot. He is very pro the subsidy of the small farmer because, as he said very eloquently, because we know he speaks in perfect sentences. You know, actually, this is preserving an ideal of Britain. This is about, I don't know, upland hill sheep farming, about time immemorial, the idea of working the land of pasture, of livestock, of feeding the community, of localism. And I hear that. But I found it extraordinary that in one breath he spoke to his conservatism with a small C. He reminded me slightly actually, of King Charles and his love of, you know, pastoral Romania and the peasant. That idea of this time gone by and preserving it. But I was led to believe that conservatives don't really like public subsidies and protecting stuff that is a lost leader or doesn't make much money. And yet Rory goes out on a limb and says, no, but I believe in farming subsidies. That's a minority he does seek to protect. And he was very indignant that countries as far flung as Japan and neighboring France know how to look after their small farmer in a way that we don't.

[Ian]

I mean, agriculture. I don't know when subsidies first started, but it would have been a hell of a long time ago. And partly because we've started Importing so much more of, in proportion to proportional terms, so much more of our food. So if you don't subsidize agriculture in some way, and we can argue about the best way to do it if we agree that it should be done, but if you don't do it, well, what happens to the land?

[Corey]

And there you have in, in the 90s it was set aside and the EU paid farms. I remember giant landowners like the one my dad worked for being given money to do nothing with their land, which seemed ridiculous when his kids were eaten. But that's a side hustle. But then. Or rewilding, which Rory really disagrees with. Where you grow kind of wildflowers or pretty birch trees, he would say, on land that's been farmed since the Dacians were imported by the Romans and you know, building Hadrian's Wall and farming themselves up there. So he makes that point. I suppose my issue is that idea of England as a green and pleasant land and Rory speaking to that as the heart of Britishness. And I would say no, Britain is a predominantly urban country. We led the industrial revolution.

[Ian]

Not by landmass it isn't.

[Corey]

No, but, no, but, no. Okay, I say no country. As me, you look at city state like Singapore, that's not the case. But actually the lived experience of 90% of England.

[Ian]

Not true.

[Corey]

100 true. The lived experience.

[Ian]

Are you saying that 90 live in built up areas? Well, what's a built up area?

[Corey]

A town or a city?

[Ian]

Well, a town, I would argue it's not a built.

[Corey]

Are you not living off the land, Ian? It is a built up area. A town is a built up area.

[Ian]

Is a village a built up area.

[Corey]

I'm telling you that growing up somewhere that was 50 miles from the nearest supermarket, we considered Pitlochry a giant conurbation. Okay. And anything that wasn't teeny weeny kinlochranic with a primary school that was about to close.

[Ian]

I think you're, you're letting your background dominate your thoughts.

[Corey]

But as, as does Rory. So he absolutely wants this minority of small farms to be protected and subsidized because he thinks that speaks to a Britishness which I would argue hasn't existed for over 200 years except for the rarefied few. And actually if you look at, and then he says, why can't we be more like France? But, but actually if you look at the French lived experience, 75 of French people live in built up areas relative to our 90%.

[Ian]

That's, that's because, I mean A they have a much bigger country than we do. Yeah, but I, I won't concede the point. I do not believe that a town of 5,000 or 10,000 people is a built up area. It's in the middle of the countryside,

[Corey]

but it's the ONS definition of what is a built up area. But, but more to the point, they're not deriving their living from the land, which is what rules protect.

[Ian]

Well, that is true, but if you don't allow the land to be farmed properly, then essentially you're saying, well, let's have more food imports. And to my, this all ties into this thing that I've become slightly obsessed by, which I'm going to do a book on resilience. Our food resilience in this country is diminishing every single year. And if you believe that in, say, a time of war or really difficult times, I mean, say the banking system collapsed or the Internet collapsed or whatever, we would have to go back to a society that we thought we'd left behind tens, if not hundreds of years ago. And therefore we need to have food resilience. And part of that is through subsidizing agriculture. Now, I don't want to subsidize big agro companies. And unfortunately in this country, as opposed to France, this is where I kind of see Rory's point. France is still full of small farmers in this country. Well, I say most, a huge proportion of them have by need had to sell up too big or amalgamate.

[Corey]

So you're right to point that out. The issue is economic viability. So a small farm is less economically viable than a bigger farm. So Rory said, oh, Scotland's sort of empty and owned by giant landowners because of the clearances. Partly true, but for example, where my father worked, there were seven times the number of employees on the estate just decades earlier because of mechanization. So actually if you are a small farmer, you find that your overheads are much more expensive relative to your yield and therefore it's harder to sustain. Now, that's a wonderful way of life and it's picturesque, but I'm not sure it's necessarily, if we're going to be ruthlessly honest, financially viable and also going into the future, I think, I mean,

[Ian]

I grew up, I grew up on one of these farms, yeah, 220 acres, arable farm. We did have animals initially until we joined the EC and then they all had to go. But I mean, if my father made £20,000 in a year, he was doing really well. And that's I knew from a very early age that even if I'd wanted to take over the farm by the time I was in a position to, the farm would not be economically viable. Now, my father never worried about that because he saw farming as a vocation, not a business. To the great annoyance of my mother, who had to do all the books, but. And that's why my sisters and I have had to sell the land, because it's not via a viable entity.

[Corey]

No, that would be considered very small now, that acreage, I think that. But instinctively, I don't have a massive issue with certain farmers being given a small subsidy. I do think, however, in terms of the kind of cognitive dissonance of Rory's argument is that if we're looking at future supply chains eating a lovely piece of beef that's grazed or mutton that's grazed in the Cumbrian pastures and hillsides, I think that is going to be the privilege for a rare few and that most of us probably will be eating protein that's been VAT made. And I don't think we're looking that far into the future. One of the squares you've got to circle or the other way around is how you manage climate change. And actually we know that the way in which we farm land leads to excessive flooding. Actually we know that the. The extent to which livestock graze on land which then depletes the land, means there's no carbon capture because there's a lack of trees, etc is compromising the entire global infrastructure. So I think we're going to move it.

[Ian]

Not in this country. I mean, in this country, frankly, if you travel from London to Norwich, you'll barely see a cow.

[Corey]

I'm talking actually globally, Ian, about the way in which we create our coffee.

[Ian]

We're talking about Britain. In this country.

[Corey]

We are talking about Britain. I think there is place for really good eating, really good meat. I will always be a hearty red meat eater, but I think it's going to become, well, you'll soon be a criminal because expensive minority sports.

[Ian]

The way things are going. I mean, you talk to greens on this and sort of the more extreme end of the greens that they would happily force us all to be vegans on the base. The basis that a plant based diet is a more healthy diet, which is something I've never.

[Corey]

I can test that.

[Ian]

Yeah. And we're now all being made guilty if we admit to eating particularly red meat. And I can see in 10 years time that this argument will have really caught on amongst the Sort of Gen Z and Gen Alpha.

[Corey]

I think it's about sustainability because actually in the same book where he unpacks this idea of protecting the small farmer and the way in life and the style of agriculture that we've lent into for hundreds of years, he also laments hence the floods and the way in which they're being flooded constantly, you know, eight years out of 10 years, whereas before it was a one off freak event. And the way in which farmers can sustain that kind of weather, what that will mean for food supply. And I think it will bring on far more quickly than we think. This idea of, you know, genetically modified vac created making protein from literally water energy, you know, in giant vats, fats, where you create protein from energy and water and air literally. That's where the science is taking us, Ian. And I think that's also where the climate's taking us. And if you throw in major conflict to that equation, which could lead to pressure, further pressure on land, I think it's the reality we're going to be facing sooner rather than later.

[Ian]

Do you think that younger generations are really going to want to eat predominantly genetically modified foods?

[Corey]

Do you know, I had a. I don't know if it's genetically modified, but I ate what I thought was a chicken nugget and it was utterly delicious because I've always liked fast food and it turned out there was no chicken in it at all. I think increasingly future generations won't be able to tell the difference and Rory's idea of what England was will increasingly become a museum piece.

[Ian]

That may be true. I mean, this is where I don't envy politicians in the. Even though I wanted to be one, some of the decisions that they're going to have to take over the next 10 or 20 years. I'm slightly relieved that I'm not going to have to make those decisions, partly because, and I'll be completely honest, I don't understand them. I mean, how. I mean, I think most of most legislators do not have the faintest understanding of AI. I don't pretend to myself I'm. I'm slightly fascinated by some of the things it can do now, but it's nothing to what it'll be able to do in five years. How do you, how do you legislate for that?

[Corey]

Which brings me on to where I believe his whole argument sort of fell apart because after he said we need to protect these small farms and the idea of England with the conservative C, small C, you know, Stanley Baldwin, etc. He then in the second breath says on his own podcast, we must embrace AI. These giant energy guzzling data centers, where are they to be built? I asked him, at which point he threw up his hands and said, I all about contradictions. You know, it's okay to be about contradictions. Politics is full of contradictions.

[Ian]

I'm sorry, but that's such a lazy argument on his part. And I've seen him do it before. He could one minute extol the virtues of localism and then the next minute talk about the virtues of benevolent dictatorship. Well, Rory, which one is it? Which road do you want to go down on? And you ask him that and he throws his hands up in the air and starts giggling.

[Corey]

Well, after we discussed where, where in Cumbria you'd put the data center, he said that would be a very local decision. Basically they're meant to slug it out between themselves. But then I did say, you're like holding up a prism to the, to the light. And everyone casts their own version of Rory through it. Because for some people you're very local in Cumbria. For others you're international colossus striding the globe, you know, intoning on, on how we should live. You're on the one hand English, on the other hand, and you're Scottish and. And there he was on the one hand being, you know, anti change and on the other hand saying, we must embrace change. So he is what you want him to be.

[Ian]

Bit like Andy Burnham, eh?

[Corey]

It's probably not much between them.

[Ian]

Well, I wouldn't know because I think it's very difficult to discern what Andy Burnham thinks about anything.

[Corey]

One wears a white T shirt, the other one wears a tweed waistcoat. Let's leave it there.

[Ian]

I did a really interesting hour last night in the 9 o' clock hour. Nothing to do with politics. And I don't know if you saw this story that a woman at Stratford Upon Avon, Royal Shakespeare Company Theatre, decided that it was appropriate to take a baby to watch the Tempest starring Kenneth Branagh. And as you can imagine, the baby started gurgling and I don't know whether it actually cried, but it was loud enough that the cast could hear it and people in the audience started to get a bit antsy and in the interval the theatre had to ask her to go and watch it in the. On screen in the cafe. Now, what's your view on the rights and wrongs of that?

[Corey]

Well, it's like a sort of upscaling of. Is it Rosamund pike who told off an audience member after the curtain call? A Couple of weeks ago because she'd seen them texting in her most climactic moment on stage. And I think relative to a baby gurgling and crying. I'll take the texter. That's what that makes me think.

[Ian]

But, I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't have ever taken any of your children to the cinema or to the theatre at that age, but if you were sitting, say, in the row in front of. What would you. What would you have done?

[Corey]

One of the reasons why I don't really enjoy school concerts is they're full of young children.

[Ian]

You're a woman after my own heart. I honestly, it was one of the most enjoyable hours last night I've ever done. I had such a good time.

[Corey]

I don't mind small children on stage. It's just when you have small children watching. Small children.

[Ian]

Yeah. And I did have to explain at one point that my nieces used to call me Uncle Herod because only I didn't particularly like children.

[Corey]

I don't even like people scrunkling minstrel papers in front of me.

[Ian]

I was, I think it was a Bond film I was watching, and there was a woman and her son behind and they had this massive box of popcorn and they'd stick their hand right down the bottom and rustle it each time. In the end, I turned around very politely, I said, would you mind? And called me a cunt.

[Corey]

Right, well, you got something right in the dark. Okay. Extraordinary. Hi, both. Hi, both. I love the POD and very much enjoy the banter, although I must confess, I'm usually on Ian's side. My goodness.

[Ian]

I believe I'm reading this unusual.

[Corey]

Your podcast and the other ones Ian does got me through some hard times last year. Difficult marriage, lost a third of my body weight. Living on my own. But now I've met an amazing man. We've bonded over our shared love of political podcasts and of you, Ian. I think he's gay. He. I don't have a name, actually. He actually reminds me a lot of you. This is the man. He's found as he is. Gentle soul and very fair minded. Anyway, I want to thank you for your input. Now, to my question. Looking back at previous prime ministers, who do you think is the most misunderstood and what lessons do modern politicians fail to learn from their time in office? Thanks for all you do, Liz. Ah, not a man then.

[Ian]

Not a man. Oh, my God. The most misunderstood. Well, Liz Truss would argue her. And I think there is a. There is a modicum of truth in that.

[Corey]

One of the Funny bits of Stuart's book was he served under her in the Department of Environment and Food and Rural affairs, and she basically said there's no difference between rural and urban voters.

[Ian]

I heard a fascinating story about her over lunch today, but I better not repeat it.

[Corey]

I think the point is she doesn't make sense, which is why none of us understand her.

[Ian]

But in. In general terms, misunderstood. I'm not sure any prime minister has been really misunderstood. Could you argue Chamberlain?

[Corey]

I thought. No, I don't think Mrs. Chamberlain was misunderstood. I think he was very.

[Ian]

I think his motives were possibly misunderstood or have been misunderstood in retrospect. Retrospect?

[Corey]

Yeah. I think he was looking out for the nation with his November face and as an umbrella. But. But he got overtaken by the. By the juggernaut that. That was the horror of Nazi Germany, which he didn't call or see. I think Gordon Brown in some ways was a bit misunderstood. I think he just became the sort of fagbot of Blairism. And I would have been really interested to see how his administration would have unfolded if he had been the one to lead from the front initially.

[Ian]

Yeah, there's lots of what ifs there, aren't there? If he had called an election in 2007 and won it, therefore, he would have been in till at least 2012.

[Corey]

The brown bounce, do you remember? He could have won.

[Ian]

Cameron probably might have gone by then and there wouldn't have been a Brexit. I mean, there's all sorts of consequences to these things.

[Corey]

The person who certainly isn't misunderstood because he's just reminded us that he still can't see the error of his way. Is Tony Blair still wanting to fight America's wars for them? Denying climate change, incidentally? Absolutely. Wanting to get our hands on as much fossil fuels as we can, down with Ed Miliband, etc.

[Ian]

Ross says good day to both. I'm imagining now Ross is Australian.

[Corey]

Good for you.

[Ian]

I was interested in your discussion on Canada on the most recent episode as well as one from a few weeks ago around Israel. Both topics I feel could do with further historical contextualization, though that's not throwing any shade to the good doctor. I appreciate there is only so much time to both prep and on the podcast itself. Given that Canada has long been the darling of the liberal center and Israel that of the right, I find the cognitive dissonance that over both sides hold what that both sides hold fascinating. And I say that as a centrist liberal who'd love to live in Canada, on Canada, any Talk of their founding should at least nod to how they treat the indigenous peoples. The Canadian government was still forcibly asking indigenous children from other families into residential schools well into the 1990s. And yet we look on Canada very differently than we do our closest southern neighbors then with Israel. I've always found it odd that there's always talk of the founding of the country, but little about the Zionist terrorism that led to it. He goes on for quite a long way there.

[Corey]

I think we got. We've got. I need to pick up on a mistake that you made.

[Ian]

Oh, surely not.

[Corey]

Kate has flagged up in relation to Australia. I must correct Ian on an error. In the last episode, he claimed the teals in Australia were the equivalent of reform. Not true. They are politically closest to the Lib Dems while being funded by Climate 200, founded by wealthy investor and climate change activist Simon Holmes Accourt. The closest party to reform here in Australia is One Nation, the Pauline Hanson outfit. It quite the colorful politician. I suggest a deep dive for Tessa, but gird your loins. So that's been noted. Thank you, Kate.

[Ian]

Well, I'm just putting into chatgpt.

[Corey]

Oh, no.

[Ian]

Which UK political party are the Australian teals closest to?

[Corey]

Cut this bit, Corey.

[Ian]

And it says the Australian teal independents are not a political party, but a loose grouping of centrists, mostly economically liberal, socially progressive independents who emerged prominently at the 2022 Australian federal election. So I have to admit that I was completely wrong.

[Corey]

Thanks, Kate. I love it when a woman calls out Ian.

[Ian]

It's got nothing to do with a woman. It could have been a bloke that

[Corey]

said, I can't help it. I still love it.

[Ian]

You really can't help it, can you?

[Corey]

I can't help it, honestly. Come on. I know you've taken umbrage because I've not asked you about your select committee appearance. So come on, spill the beans.

[Ian]

Well, it was quite something in the end. I actually quite enjoyed it. It was. It went 20 minutes over when it was supposed to and I was not

[Corey]

like you to talk over time.

[Ian]

I was on with. Well, I was on with a very eloquent young man called Jordan schwarzenberger, who's a YouTube. He runs a company that does lots of things on YouTube and we actually agreed on quite a lot. And I didn't know most of the mps on the committee, but there was one Rupa Huck that I did know before and. How can I put this? Rupa Huck is quite a maverick and doesn't really. She's a Bit like you, she doesn't have much of a break mechanism. And my first encounter with Rupert Huck was actually on LBC about 10 years ago, when she was first elected. And I was presenting on a Saturday morning and she came on to talk about some aspect of railways, I can't remember what. I wasn't really concentrating on her answer to the question. I was thinking, what am I going to ask her next? And I just heard her say, I mean, if you go on the London Underground nowadays, you might as well give the person next to you a hand job.

[Corey]

What?

[Ian]

And I was thinking, did she really say that? And I looked at the producer who didn't give any reaction at all. And I thought, well, okay, well, if she did say that, I'm assuming they dumped it, and they had dumped it. But I said to her afterwards, I said, on what planet was it appropriate for you to say that at 10 o' clock on a Saturday morning when you'll have parents taking their kids to their sports activities or whatever? And she genuinely couldn't see the problem with it. And I've had a couple of other incidents with her over the years. So when she started talking, she produced an iPad and she said, well, lbc. Because I'd made clear I wasn't there speaking on behalf of lbc, I was speaking in a personal capacity and the whole hearing was on the BBC charter renewal. And she then said, well, I've got this clip here that LBC put out and it's of Nigel Farage and he's not being challenged. I said, well, I don't know what clip you're talking about. I said, he usually goes on Nick Ferrari and I can assure you Nick Ferrari challenges him. And she said, no, no, he's. He's in a field making a statement. I said, oh, that. So that was on the Henry Novak thing where he did this sort of emergency thing. I said, you don't think that it's appropriate for us to carry a clip of what a political party leader?

[Corey]

Is this being looked at if it was lbc? Because I thought the whole point was a select committee looking at.

[Ian]

Exactly. So anyway. And anyway, she wasn't for backing down. And I said, look, we would do that if it was Keir Starmer making a statement, or Kemi Basenok or even a Davy. I don't see what your problem is. Well, he wasn't challenged. I said, no, because he was in the middle of a field, I do think. And it got quite sparky between us,

[Corey]

but I still don't understand this was in front of the select Committee.

[Ian]

Yes. And you could see the rest of the MPs saying, you know, here she goes again.

[Corey]

Well, why didn't they just close her down?

[Ian]

Well, maybe they should have done.

[Corey]

That's what Rory did with me, just showed me the door after I asked him to.

[Ian]

But, I mean, genuinely. I mean, it was. It was an interesting experience and we covered a lot of ground. And, I mean, look, I. I admit I. I mean, I couldn't quite really understand why I was there, but it was all because apparently I wrote an article six years ago on the future of the BBC, and my main point was, it's up to the BBC to lead this debate about its future and decide what it wants to be, what it should be doing, what it shouldn't be doing. And so I said at the beginning, I said, I'm not here to just slag off the BBC, but I will in a sentence. Well, in the end, I went on to slag off the BBC. I mean, but in a constructive way. I mean, identifying some things that I thought they shouldn't be doing. Like why do they spend £75 million a year on Match of the Day when Sky Sports do it much better? And it's a legacy thing. They've always had Match of the Days, so they always think they.

[Corey]

It's like funding small farmers, could we say? I mean, do you think that we need to just put. I mean, the problem is, Ian, that you don't like watching Match of the Day on the BBC, but loads of people. Well, there you are.

[Ian]

Rest my case, because I always have. It's like custard, but it's not a program that's ever innovated. It's exactly the same format as it was in 1967.

[Corey]

Because we're creatures of habit.

[Ian]

Yeah, I know, but would you rather spend £75 million a year on that or stop the cuts in news and current affairs? So that was my main point, that they've. Salami. Sliced news and current affairs to the point where it's actually incapable of doing its job.

[Corey]

Now, do you know, the entire thesis of my day has been about contradiction and you simply can't have everything. But it's incredibly hard to decide with our diminishing economic.

[Ian]

But that was my point.

[Corey]

Status in this country, what we have and what we don't have. No, but it is true.

[Ian]

That's got nothing to do with the BBC. It is true the BBC should be leading the debate on its future, but instead, I mean, could you tell me what Tim Davies vision was for the future of the BBC. Now I think it's very interesting they've got this guy from Google, Martin Britton, who I've never met, don't know anything about him apart from the fact that he's from Google. Now that will either be an inspired appointment or it'll just be more of the same because it'd be captured by all of this sort of apparatchiks within the BBC.

[Corey]

But I think one of the issues that Britain is grappling with and one of the reasons why there's so much discontent and yes, it spills out onto the streets and yes, targets are often erroneously are selected and it's not necessarily their fault and they're not culpable is because we're not used to having a diminishing pot of money. There is less to go around and I don't care whether that's funding for the state broadcaster or whether it's subsidies for small farmers farmers, There is less of it and that makes us feel hard done by because since the Second World War the pot was regularly replenished and it hasn't been in the same.

[Ian]

Well, perhaps we should stop spending like a, like a tap turned on as we are at the moment and actually identify things that we shouldn't be spending money on, like aspects of the welfare budget.

[Corey]

I feel you going for pip, it's that next week.

[Ian]

Well, yeah, no, what about pip. But I would be going for the welfare budget but I think next week, hopefully at some point in the next couple of days the defense in what's it called? Defense Investment Plan.

[Corey]

Yes.

[Ian]

Will finally be published so we can talk about that because I think the government are going to disappoint everyone with that. They'll say that they're spending more money but they won't be.

[Corey]

Apparently though, like Ernest Bevan, John Healy is promising there's going to be a Union Jack over every part of the munitions build up. He's going to make it his bombs and he's going to make his destroyers and he's going to make his drones everywhere in every corner of the British Isles and 1% is going to be taken off every other budget in government to fund it. So I've heard.

[Ian]

Yeah, to. To a massive 13 and a half billion pounds which won't touch the sides. Anyway, have a lovely weekend. I'm going to too.

[Corey]

Me too. And this has dropped a day early so yes. Almost premature to wish people a good review. One, it's a Thursday car. Apparently the best cars are made between Tuesday and Thursday.

[Ian]

Yes. Goodbye.

[Corey]

This has been a global player original production.