134. Ban and Deliver

Summary

Where Politics Meets History – Episode 134 “Ban and Deliver”
June 16, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Episode Overview

In this witty and wide-ranging “holiday edition,” broadcaster Iain Dale and historian Dr. Tessa Dunlop take a sharp, historical look at the week’s biggest political stories. The focus this episode: Keir Starmer’s proposed social media ban for under-16s, its political context, and its deep echoes with Britain’s history of prohibitions — from alcohol and tobacco to tech. Cultural debates around gendered national identities, Andy Burnham’s political future, media spin, and historical by-election rivalries also feature, all laced with trademark banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Andy Burnham, Labour, and Political Flakiness

(00:34, 38:18)

• Tessa opens by scrutinizing Andy Burnham’s recent popularity, questioning his substance:

  “He’s flip-flopped on virtually every major issue and he's done it again on the Waspy Women this week. An absolutely ludicrous position that he took and then had to reverse ferret on it.” (Tessa, 00:51, 40:09)

• Iain remarks on Burnham’s public persona:

  “He’s got a great thatch of hair… he can sell things better. But what’s he got to sell? That’s the problem.” (Iain, 00:43–00:52, 39:54)

• They discuss Burnham’s position as a “continuity candidate” and ponder whether Labour’s leader suffers from similar “flip-flopping.”

2. Gendered National Identities: History & Stereotypes

(04:44–14:47, 50:04)

• The hosts humorously debate whether countries embody masculine or feminine traits:

  “Scotland is definitely a masculine country. I would say that France is very much a feminine country... Italy more of a masculine country, but verging on the bisexual side.” (Tessa, 04:44–05:12)

• Iain traces Scottish “hyper-masculinity” back 800 years, linking to national myths and resistance. This theme later returns in historical analysis (see Scottish Independence, below).

3. Ban, Block, Deliver: Starmer’s Social Media Crackdown

(15:43–28:06)

Historical Precedents for Prohibition

• Iain quizzes Tessa about the first Private Members Bill by a woman (Nancy Astor, 1923):

  “Anyone under 18 could not be sold alcohol. And rather extraordinarily in some ways, it hasn't been changed since.” (Iain, 17:10)

• Connection to today: The pair discuss how historic restrictions on youth mirrored in Starmer's under-16 social media ban.

  • Comparisons made to tobacco bans (introduced for under 16s in 1908), and the long timeline before effective tobacco controls, in contrast to today’s rapid interventions.

The Politics & Practicalities of Bans

• Tessa:

  “I am broadly in favor of it, but I do think that he’s letting the tech giants off the hook here... I think they are being let off the hook in many ways.” (Tessa, 19:40–20:59)

• Iain notes:

  “This is about much more than porn... we could just wait a few months and actually have much better research to legislate with.” (Iain, 20:59–21:40)

• Discussion of Australia’s policies as precedent, the technical and social challenges of enforcement (age verification, circumvention).

Society, Boredom, and Modern Childhood

• The hosts recall the shift from communal, analog upbringings to digital, isolated ones:

  “Are there fewer youth clubs because there’s less uptake? There is also less funding... But I think one of the deficits in children’s life today is boredom. And I think this will reintroduce that and it's not necessarily a bad thing.” (Iain, 25:52–26:50)

• Tessa questions whether banning social media truly addresses underlying societal gaps for youth, advocating for proactive investment in alternatives:

  “If there is a real concern that kids won't have enough to do, what he could have done is said, right, okay, here's £500 million for a new youth club in every single constituency…” (Tessa, 34:24)

Impact on Politics, Economy & Democracy

• Iain raises the economic implications (tech sector revenues, treasury impact) but focuses on long-term nationalism and “unemployability” among youth:

  “Not just about the unemployability of the youth, but also about the impact this will have in the medium, long term on democracy.” (Iain, 36:05)

4. Parallels in Public Health: Smoking, Alcohol, Modern Vices

(28:06–34:24)

• The duo deep-dive on the history of tobacco and alcohol bans:

  “1908…we didn’t start making the public connection between health…lung cancer and smoking until well after the Second World War.” (Iain, 28:30)

• Notable statistics: Peak smoking year in Britain was 1949 (81% of men, 39% of women).
• Both note the slowness of past government responses versus today’s urgent action on technology.

5. By-Elections, Reform Party, Farage & BBC “Bias”

(38:18–46:19)

• The by-election in Makerfield is dissected, with doubts about Andy Burnham’s prospects.
• Tessa speculates about the Reform Party’s future if they lose, and questions about media fairness crop up:

  “They have had Nigel Farage 38 times on Question Time, which you could also argue is BBC bias.” (Iain, 45:06)

6. Scottish History: The Maid of Norway & National Myth

(46:19–49:19)

• Iain uses the tragic story of Margaret, Maid of Norway, to illustrate the roots of Scotland’s enduring underdog “hyper-masculinity” narrative, contrasting it with the relative dynastic stability of England.
• Tessa plugs her new book (“The Generals”) and the need for deeper dives into overlooked female figures.

7. International Perceptions & Englishness

(52:42–53:51)

• Listeners send in stereotypes of England—from The Beatles to “crooked teeth,” football hooliganism, and alleged obsession with the lost empire.

  “Foreign language textbooks apparently still reinforce these stereotypes.” (Listener “Bianca”, 52:42)

8. Questions: Policy, Equality, and Political Language

(56:38–62:06)

• Policy questions from listeners include the fate of the Equality Act, disability rights, and the Tories’ deregulatory ambitions.
• Iain and Tessa tussle over economic impacts and the legacy of disability legislation.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Andy Burnham:

  “A Prime Minister he doth not make, I’m afraid... nothing there. He’s flip flopped on virtually every major issue...” (Tessa, 40:09)

• On Gendered Nations:

  “Italy more of a masculine country, but verging on the bisexual side.” (Tessa, 05:12) “I would say they’re almost they/them.” (Iain, 05:12)

• On Starmer’s Social Media Ban:

  “This is about much more than porn...” (Iain, 20:59) “If there is a real concern that kids won't have enough to do, what he could have done is said, right, okay, here's £500 million for a new youth club in every single constituency…” (Tessa, 34:24)

• On Historical Parallels:

  “Look at the speed, the alacrity with which we've sat down on social media.” (Iain, 34:13)

• On Scottishness:

  “The David versus the Goliath that's really endured in a way that I think is quite remarkable...” (Iain, 48:23)

• On Listener Feedback:

  “The show’s format encourages the kind of good natured disagreement that is essential to avoiding echo chambers in today’s society.” (Listener, 60:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Andy Burnham/Political Banter: 00:34–02:28 & 38:18–43:42
• Masculine/Feminine Nation Debate: 04:44–14:47
• Starmer’s Social Media Ban – Main Discussion: 15:43–28:06
• Historical Bans (Alcohol, Tobacco): 28:06–34:24
• Youth, Boredom, Society: 25:38–34:24
• By-Election/Media: 38:18–46:19
• Scottish History/Maid of Norway: 46:19–49:19
• International Perceptions: 52:42–53:51
• Listener Questions & Policy: 56:38–62:06

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Tone & Language

True to form, the episode is bantering, sharp, and at times irreverent with historical depth:

• Witty asides about personal life (flowers, barbecues, football) frame more serious debates.
• Honest, sometimes sardonic political analysis blends with lighter moments (“I only discovered what tea bagging was about a year ago…” (Iain, 07:13))
• Friendly bickering and one-upmanship (“I've only ever read one Shakespeare play and that was one too many.” (Tessa, 61:19))
• The hosts’ generational perspectives (analog 70s chilhoods vs. tech-saturated youth) are foregrounded.

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Summary

Episode 134 of Where Politics Meets History wraps the week’s biggest political story – Keir Starmer’s social media ban for youth – in rich historical context, fierce political analysis, and characteristic badinage. The hosts probe whether knee-jerk bans address deeper societal problems or simply repeat past political mistakes. They revisit gendered national myths, scrutinize party political tactics ahead of the by-election, and field sharp listener questions. All the while, echoes of Britain’s long, sometimes contradictory march toward “protection,” “progress,” and “public order” loom, reminding listeners, as ever, that history is never as far away as we think.

Transcript

[Grainger Announcer]

Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-Grainger click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Ian Dale]

This is a global production.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The wind is in Andy Burnham's sails at the moment, for reasons I can't quite fathom, because he's a complete and utter flake.

[Ian Dale]

What is it that you particularly take umbrage with? The fact that other than Ian, he's got a great thatch of hair.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He does, but he does.

[Thumbtack Announcer]

Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. You look below the surface and there's nothing there. He's flip flopped on virtually every major issue and he's done it again on the Waspy Women this week. An absolutely ludicrous position that he took and then had to reverse ferret on it. That's the complaint that is made against Keir Starmer, that he flip flops on everything, that he has no ideological grounding, he doesn't really believe in anything, and Andy Burnham is a replica of that. But he can sell things better. But what's he got to sell? That's the problem. We still don't know. Hello and welcome to a holiday edition of Where Politics Meets History. Well, it's a holiday edition for me because I'm supposedly on holiday, but Tessa's forced me to take part in this podcast because she's too lazy to find a replacement. So here I am sitting in my T shirt in Tunbridge Wells, waiting for Tessa's words of wisdom.

[Ian Dale]

Ian is in a vest, a string vest, with a can of Castlemaine 4X.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I'm not.

[Ian Dale]

Howdy. How's the Barbie?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you'll find out on the 27th. And you still haven't asked your husband if he's willing to come, have you?

[Ian Dale]

Oh, I'm. These. These matters are a delicate series of negotiations that have to take place behind closed doors. Okay. It's a bit like the Labour leadership contest. Thank you very much. You are, of course, Ian, irreplaceable. My younger brother always says I must be kinder to you so that I could not think of a replacement suggests that you are the titan of broadcasting, without whom we could not survive this essential by election week.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, we are starting this 15 minutes later than we'd intended because of your technical incompetence. Do you know what she said to me just now? She said, I'm really sorry that my Internet cable just became detached from my computer because it got stuck in my foot. And I'm thinking, do they not have wifi in Brixton? And then I thought, oh, she's obviously got a VPN so she can access obscene porn.

[Ian Dale]

Not that, it's just because, as you so often refer to, I'm so young. It's not a trick of light, it's not Botox magic. I'm actually only 16 and I'm desperately trying to trick Keir Starmer's non scrolling device. You know, even 16 year olds aren't going to be allowed to do infinite scrolling and I'm very worried that might curb my habit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Don't shoot your bolt on that one too quickly because we're going to be talking about that a little bit later on. On. But of course you are not 16. In fact, you're 16 times three and a quarter, aren't you?

[Ian Dale]

If you can do those mental arithmetics, it means that you nearly would have got Internet age.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I only got grade C GCs, you know, some. Some pedant the other day. I don't know whether it was on the podcast or on my program where I said, I got GCSE maths. And he said, well, you couldn't have done because they weren't introduced until 1987.

[Ian Dale]

Quite right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, well, that is true. But I was on the pilot project in 1978, so it was a GCSE O level.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I was in Scotland, so I did standard creeds and I've never really understood the difference between the two. I've always been a firm believer that somewhere in the middle is the best version of an exam system. If only Scotland and England could communicate better. But we know that's never going to happen. We've got a lot to get through. Of course I wanted to do a little dollop, a small wee dollop of Scottish history in the wake of their brave, kind of slightly lacklustre victory over Haiti, and discuss why they have this hyper masculine image. The Scots, they are the plucky, the underdog. But you know, we always think they might just draw the dagger from their stockinged leg and plunge it deep. So I think that we need to look at why they have this very masculine image. Like if you could gender countries, which I'm sure you don't spend your Evenings trying to do. No, I would give Scotland a more masculine image than England.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't spend my life thinking about gender, unlike you, which. Which occurs in every single podcast, as many people have pointed out. Actually, that is a good point, though. Which are the masculine countries and which are the feminine? I think you're right. Scotland is definitely a masculine country. I would say that France is very much a feminine country. I would say Spain is a feminine country. Italy more of a masculine country, but verging on the bisexual side.

[Ian Dale]

I would say they're almost they them. I'm going to come to where this myth of hyper masculinity in the Scottish identity came from. We're going to track back some 800 years. For those who are. There isn't an history in the pod. It's interesting though, given how recently they've been governed by a feisty. I'm not allowed to use that word, although I heard it applied to a man at the weekend. So I am now going with full steam ahead with feisty, a feisty woman, Nicola Sturgeon. And quickly, apropos female leadership and identity. My word of the weekend. Gynecke.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, that must be something to do with lady parts.

[Ian Dale]

Well, no, I mean, obviously gynaecology etc refers to lady parts, so there must be a Latin genesis or some such for gynae referring to the female. But gyneche is a political or social system where women hold the ultimate governing authority, power and dominance. So Thatcher was a really Thatcher and Elizabeth ii. Britain then was a really good example of a gynechy.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I can teach you a new word today. Well, at least I hope it's a new word for you because I'd be slightly appalled if you actually know what it is. A gish.

[Ian Dale]

Any idea it's going to be something slightly smutty? It is if you'd be appalled. Yeah. So lowest common denominator is you need banned from scrolling, you know, and the porn site.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, talking of scrolling it, actually that's quite an apposite word for this because it's a sort of ring that you put in. Under your scrotum.

[Ian Dale]

God almighty. This is. I'm trying to raise the level of the.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which I must admit I've, I, I've never encountered before, but I was told that the other day, so it must be true. I mean, why would people. Why would anyone do that? It's like, why would anyone have a Prince Albert?

[Ian Dale]

I don't know what a Prince Albert is. I thought the last time I said that he was Victoria's Consort husband from Germany. But.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you do know what it is in relation to a man's nether regions, don't you?

[Ian Dale]

I have absolutely no idea. I only discovered what tea bagging was about a year ago. I was brought up in the Highlands without Internet. Okay. And there were very few locals.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You generally don't know what a Prince Albert is.

[Ian Dale]

I do not know, hand on heart, what a Prince Albert is, except I do know who he was. So I think that's quite.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, apparently. And I don't know whether he had one of these, but it's like a. A ring. It can be quite a thick ring as well, that you. You have fixed onto the end of your knob.

[Ian Dale]

What, to make it thicker for the woman or the man?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I don't know, because I would have thought it was quite a dangerous thing to do that it could result in. Well, right, next time I will do a deep dive into the ancestry of the Prince Albert because it must be something to do with him, otherwise it wouldn't be called after him, would it?

[Ian Dale]

Well, Victoria did have nine children. Maybe she acquired such a broad girth that he felt he needed something for extra pleasure. I don't want. I can't believe you forced me down this rabbit hole. I've done so much research today on banning things, historically banning things from children.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We'll get on. We'll get on to that in a minute. This is the fluff that we love at the beginning of the episode. Now, you mentioned Scotland.

[Ian Dale]

Victory made me feel peculiar.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It would do. You watched Scotland's match, did you, against Haiti?

[Ian Dale]

Dan's obsessed. Dan watches all the World cup on Romanian telly. Obviously they're not in. In the competition because he can't bear the English dominance of the British coverage. And he just finds all the kind of crew out there super smug and Anglophone.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Far be it from us as. As the nation of England to dominate England coverage. I mean, dear. We've given more coverage to Scotland so

[Ian Dale]

far, obviously, because they've played just because Romania aren't in it, obviously because Scotland played first. But it's worth bearing in mind, you know, huge numbers of people are born abroad and have different teams. And I think it's interesting. I wonder how many watch the football from their own nation's coverage. I mean, anything's accessible now, but it's him in his little corner, his little kind of football corner, and I get to sort of reign supreme downstairs. It's extraordinary how regressive in many respects our household is. The football comes on. It's not that I'm not interested, because it's visually very pleasing to watch five minutes of football, but I simply don't have the concentration span or the time to slog my way through an entire match, even if I have a vested interest in the match. So, for example, Scotland playing or England playing? I've managed to talk solidly, Ian, in your absence, and. Oh, my goodness, flowers. Who gave you those flowers? Ian's come into the room with a giant bouquet of flowers. Are you showing off?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, they're not for me, they're for John. Because, believe, believe it or not, it's our wedding anniversary today. So I thought, for once in my life, I would do something thoughtful. Now, I want you to guess this. This is what I got from Interflora. How much do you think they cost?

[Ian Dale]

There's a few carnations there. Are there a couple of chrysanthemums?

[Thumbtack Announcer]

What?

[Ian Dale]

What have you chosen?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, there's multiple different things.

[Ian Dale]

What's the blue one? That's very.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, lilies.

[Ian Dale]

No, Most people are allergic to lilies.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, that's why I didn't get any. So how much do you think that little timing is?

[Ian Dale]

Cynical? Two seconds. I now know why you were chivying me online. Because you knew this was going to arrive and it would make you look good. No, optics are terrific.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, the timing was 3:30 to 4:30. So therefore, I thought, well, we'll be finished by 3:30 if Tessa is on time, which, of course, you weren't.

[Ian Dale]

I think Inter Flora, hand delivered to Tunbridge Wells. I would say. You paid £50 for that bunch of flowers.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Very good. £56. What an absolute ripoff.

[Ian Dale]

I do think flowers.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I was expecting a much bigger bunch than that. And it comes in a cardboard box. I thought there might be a sort of porcelain vase or something that it comes in.

[Ian Dale]

Flowers is they don't last, they die and they stink. I think cut flowers are problematic because the water smells so putrid. I prefer always to be given a plant pot.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Okay, I'll bear that. Bear that in mind. Anyway, don't you think it's good that. Because, of course, this is the anniversary of the upgrade, as opposed to the original civil partnership. So that was 11 years ago today, where we upgraded over a photocopier in Norwich registry office. I mean, how romantic can you get with Prince Albert? Not with Prince Albert.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, in your absence, while you were picking up the flowers, I was talking about the gender disparities in our household, where I've actually left down to his man cave, the fog of beer and commentary. And I swan around downstairs, having reclaimed the kitchen. And yesterday in the park, I noticed that Elena and her girlfriends were swinging from the bars and all the little boys were running around on the dusty football pitch hoofing a ball. And I said to the girls, don't you want to go and be lionesses? Thinking I should try and counter the clear gender divide. And they said, oh no, we don't do football. No, that's because boys like to get muddy. I thought, oh my God, what have I done wrong? Parent fail. The gyneche in our family is too overpowering.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think Elena is a very sensible young woman. But have you not watched any of

[Ian Dale]

the matches, then touched base with them? But as I explained to the dear listener, in your absence, I can't manage the whole shooting match. It's like I can manage a sip of gin, I can't do a whole bottle. That's the kind of equivalent.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I took these two weeks off especially so I could watch literally virtually every match and I've only missed two so far. What I do is the ones that are overnight, I then watch the next day. So when we finish this, I'm going to watch the Sweden match, which was at 3 o' clock last night. So if you know the result, don't say because I'll kill you.

[Ian Dale]

Is it because you enjoy watching the extraordinarily decorative players or is it because you are gripped by the lucidity of the commentators?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm not like Corey, who's one of these nouveau Johnny come lately football fans who's embarrassing whenever he talks about football. I actually have a big history in football. So there we are.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, well, we wouldn't deny you that pleasure. And for some reason, and perhaps this speaks more to my generation, I think it's less damaging watching endless hours of football in Trump's America and beyond than it is in fact scrolling on Instagram. So well done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The one thing that I really hate about this World cup though are the so called hydration breaks, because what they they're not hydration breaks there to allow American broadcasters to have advert breaks. And I mean last night you had the ludicrous thing of I can't remember which match it was though, where they were playing with the roof on and the whole stadium was air conditioned but they still had hydration breaks. I this World cup has not caught a light yet. For me, it's only when Kuroso scored against Germany to make it 1:1. I thought that was the moment when it could set the Whole thing alight and then the Germans went and scored seven. Anyway, should we go in the opening stages?

[Ian Dale]

The opening stages are always dull. Scotland had their high moment against Haiti because I noticed next there's Morocco and Brazil. So I feel they're going to have to lean heavily on that hyper masculine image of their nation to get beyond the opening stages for the first time in however many decades. And England, will it beat Croatia? I don't know. Will she? Is England a woman? Is England a woman?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think most countries are a woman, aren't they?

[Ian Dale]

I know, but do we lean into. When it's about football and I think of the sort of thuggish nature historically of the English football fan, I struggle with the idea of us being a woman, England being a woman. It's also masculine. I think England, although white is a masculine. I don't think it is colour to play in.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Can we just agree it?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, okay. They them

[Tessa Dunlop]

ordre when England play in red because we won the World Cup. In fact, West Ham won the World cup when England were playing with red shirts. So I think we should play always in red. But there we are. Right, let's go to time for a

[Ian Dale]

break and we're going to get some serious history.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Whether you like it or not,

[Grainger Announcer]

Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24, 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Ian Dale]

Ian. In 1923, the first private members bill introduced by a woman to become an act of Parliament stipulated what?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No idea. Have a guess that. Can you give me a little clue?

[Ian Dale]

Well, today we're talking about the blanket banning of social media courtesy of Keir Starmer for all those 16 and under with add ons for those over 16.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The banning of pornography.

[Ian Dale]

No, I'm not sure that the trade in pornography was roaring for the under 16s in 1923 via what is true. But did they disseminate it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, there was pornography in the 1920s though, because I think. Where was it? I was reading about the world's oldest pornographic film. It was like one of these silent movies and that would have been in the 1920s. So I'm not quite sure how popular it would have been, but I bet there was sort of like the 1920s equivalent of sort of top shelf magazines.

[Ian Dale]

For example, this is the second part of the pod and we're back with pornography. So let me just veer you away. If we were playing Hump Thimble, you're very cold at the moment. Okay, so not pornography. Something was. All right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I don't know.

[Ian Dale]

Alcohol. Alcohol. And who was the woman in question who introduced the Private members bill in 1952?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Probably Nancy Astor.

[Ian Dale]

Exactly right. She stood up in front of an audience of predominantly hostile men, over 500 of them, to deliver her maiden speech. This was in 1920. It was a subject close to her heart, the need for restrictions on the sale of alcohol. Her speech emphasized the damage caused to women and children by the excessive consumption of alcohol by minors. And it was introduced in 1923. Anyone under 18 could not be sold alcohol. And rather extraordinarily in some ways it hasn't been changed since. That is the intoxicating.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So it wasn't for total. It wasn't for total prohibition then. It was just for children. Because Keir Starmer, in his whatever it was this morning press conference or speech or whatever, he actually made that point. He said, look, I recognize that there will be kids who get around whatever law we introduce, but the fact is that there were kids that get around the drinking laws as well. And no one suggests that we shouldn't have a drinking law banning drink from for under 18s. Which I thought was a fair point.

[Ian Dale]

Quite an unoriginal point. I made it on my Instagram last week in the face of Lionel Schreiber.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He was probably watching.

[Ian Dale]

I had that thought in my attic. And he's got legions of researchers who are trying to find out a way of improving his optics so he doesn't just look like he's pushing this across the line in order to have some kind of legacy before Andy Burnham snitches Makerfield and beyond. I actually feel, interestingly that there's two ways of looking at the introduction of this bill. I want to come a bit later on, actually, not to look at the banning of alcohol, but to the banning of tobacco for children. Because I think there's some interesting, some salient similarities and various strong differences that happened a bit earlier in fact than 1923. But re why or where the impetus has come for suddenly going from consultation in March, the government having originally knocked back the Lords proposal for this bill to now embracing it. Holus, bolus so some people, or most people presume the got something to do with Keir Starmer and his threatened premiership. But also there's a case to be made for this being a shout out to grassroots movement people, parents groups, WhatsApps, family members, schools saying we need to do this and we need to do it fast. So kind of the power to the people idea.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm not always in favor of following public opinion. I think you should lead public opinion when you're the Prime Minister. But there are occasions when it's appropriate to do and I think this may be one of them. I mean I'm, I'm, I am in broadly in favor of it, but I do think that he's letting the tech giants off the hook here because if you believe that the likes of Meta, Facebook, Instagram, etc. Are publishers, then I mean we wouldn't allow newspapers or book publishers to do what all of these social media giants are doing. So I think they are being let off the hook in many ways and I think the list of social media sites that they've published, I mean, why isn't Blue sky on it? Blue sky is effectively a replica of X, so why aren't they on this list? So it all seems to be a little bit subjective and WhatsApp isn't on the list, which I think is a Good thing. Is YouTube on the list? Because it is in Australia. It shouldn't be. Well, it shouldn't be. It absolutely should not be. There is nothing. Okay. I'm sure there is the odd video on YouTube that is slightly distasteful, but you don't get porn on YouTube and that YouTube are actually quite good in filtering out bad content.

[Ian Dale]

I think this is about much more than porn. Interestingly, a couple of things. There has been this kind of rush to get it across the line. One of the reasons why you could call it out as a political decision is that the consultation on the outcomes in Australia has yet to be delivered and therefore we are legislating where we could just wait a few months and actually have much better research to legislate with because there are obviously many an Anglophone country equivalent wealth. Actually Australia's economy does considerably better than ours. But you know, there are lots of similar metrics that mean that we could follow in their lead. And I think we've rather let the horse bolt too quickly. But the.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Sorry, when you say the Australian economy does considerably better than ours, what are you basing that on?

[Ian Dale]

It's growth. GDP growth. But let's not go down that rabbit Hole. Let's just. We can come and argue, slog that another time. I'm sure a questioner, a listener in Australia will back me up. But in the meantime, where they've struggled is working out how old children are who already have Instagram, et cetera, accounts. And most children who had media accounts have found that they've managed to retain their social media accounts in the wake of this ban. And Britain is going to think about apparently bringing in tighter ways of monitoring age, including the laws and identification rules that are used. Because you love talking about this for pornography in this country.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I don't buy the argument that just because some kids find their way around it, it shouldn't be done. I mean, the initial figures showed that 40% or 30 to 40% of kids were finding their way around it or ignoring it, but that still means 50 or 60% that weren't. So you could argue that it's still worth doing. And I think that is quite a strong argument, actually. You're never going to be able to introduce a law in this that is all encompassing, that will make sure that no child can ever see any of these sites. It's just impossible to do. But. But the tech giants, if they cooperated with it and if they carried out their own social responsibility, they would be able to make it much more restrictive.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. It begs, I think, some really interesting questions. This ban, if we're going to look about the impact of smoking and banning smoking, which obviously had always implications for the treasury when we increasingly have tried to phase it out, not just for those 16 and under, but well beyond. I wonder where the money side of things comes into it when it comes to prohibiting those under 16 from taking up a social media habit, because that's what it is effectively. And to what extent that will impact on tech bro's revenues and therefore to the national coffers of GB plc, I don't know.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I'm not sure that should be the overriding metric here. I mean, if it's not the overriding

[Ian Dale]

metric, but it is a question, it would be one of the reasons that would incentivise surely, the tech giants to push back or at least look for judicial review for the legislation that's coming down the line. I agree we need to do something. And what's interesting is the rate at which social media Internet use scrolling has taken off, it's happened in a sort of compressed time span, is unprecedented in many respects. The way in which it's impacted on children's behaviors and lifestyles. And to suggest Very somewhat cynically, that this is all about Keir Starmer's political problems, I think, is to overlook the deliverance of Andy Milburn's NEETS investigation, which found over a million not in education or training young people, many of whom couldn't account for where their years had gone under the duvet. And the answer clearly was the smartphone.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. And the problem is that once you. Once you get to the age of, I don't know, 23, 24, 25, and you've never had a job, the likelihood is that you'll never get a job. And that, I think, was one of the big conclusions from Alan Milburn's report. And it's easy to sort of come out with all of these statistics. And so, I mean, I don't know what proportion of 25 year olds have never had a job, but whatever it is, it's too high. But how do you stop that happening? Well, does stopping people using these sites, I mean, what do they do with their time when they're not on these sites? That seems to be one of the big things that's come out in the discussion today. There was a girl interviewed on BBC News who said, well, I'll just stare at the wall. I thought, you stupid girl. And then other people say, well, there's no. There's no.

[Ian Dale]

That's an interesting point.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Which of course there are, but not as many as there used to be. I don't really buy this idea that it just means that idle hands will make for naughty work.

[Ian Dale]

I think there's several points there. One, it's a chicken and an egg. Are the fewer youth clubs because there's less uptake. There is also less funding. So there's probably a perfect storm of reasons why we have less facilities for young people, especially young people without financial means. But I think it's also worth bearing in mind that staring at the wall can be a wholly great thing. That's where you have your big ideas. And I think one of the.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Go read.

[Ian Dale]

It's life today, actually reading a book sometimes comes from staring at the wall to death. You then pick up a book, go

[Tessa Dunlop]

and do stuff with your mates.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but. But again, Ian, it's.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I mean, there are so many things that you can do as a teenager,

[Ian Dale]

but sometimes there are restrictions, financial, parental and otherwise, that mean people can't skip and frolic in the way that they did when you grew up in a field in the 70s. But I do think one of the deficits.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, that is true.

[Ian Dale]

One of the deficits in children's life today is boredom. And I think this will reintroduce that and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I don't buy that. I absolutely don't buy that. Because do you remember that program when you would. I think you would have been a child when this program was on television. Why don't you switch off the television and do something less boring? And that was all about all of the different things that were available for young people, people to do. And I think that that was true then in the 70s and it's true now. People, kids always complain that they're bored.

[Ian Dale]

No, they don't, Ian, they don't. Modern children don't complain they're bored. That's one of the problems. When I don't hear from Elena after about an hour, I think, oh, go to her room. There she is on a screen playing Minecraft. If that had been me, roll back the time 40, 50 years ago, I'd have been at the coat strings or the apron strings of my mum going, I'm bored, I'm bold. It's an absolute sea change in the way children are growing up. They're not bored.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you could also argue that it's too late for this generation. And I think if you, if you were a 10 year old and you're already used to using all of these sites, you're going to think this is completely unfair and be totally against it. What I think this legislation will do, if you agree with it, is protect a future legislation. Future generation.

[Ian Dale]

Right, tell me when you think, because I've already tackled alcohol, children under 18 weren't allowed to drink it from 1923. When were children under 16 banned from buying tobacco?

[Tessa Dunlop]

1968.

[Ian Dale]

No, far earlier. It's fascinating. I went down a massive tobacco rabbit hole with this one. 1908, they.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right.

[Ian Dale]

It's fascinating because actually we didn't start making the public connection between health particularly, but not only lung cancer, cardiovascular and smoking until well after the Second World War. Partly because, as I aforementioned, it was so lucrative for the Treasury. Literally. We have members of government going, but Churchill smokes and look how old he is. Because we were in such flagrant denial about all the research that was coming out that connected smoking to lung cancer. But actually we had a clear idea it wasn't good because there we are in the Children's act of 1908 forbidding the sale of tobacco to the under 16s. People were concerned about the impact it was having and the rise it was having. Most of them, by the way, weren't smoking cigarettes, there was a tiny fraction of tobacco. But there was this introduction of a cigarette making machine that transformed the tobacco industry at the end of the 19th century and meant kids were much more likely to have a rollie. By the end of the First World War, cigarette sales finally exceed pipe sales. But do you know when it really reached a peak? Smoking. Guess what year in the 20th century you see the highest number of smokers? Men and women. Men and women.

[Tessa Dunlop]

1933.

[Ian Dale]

No, 1949. 81% of men smoked and 39% of women smoked in 1949. It's staggering that that is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That really is staggering, isn't it? I'm trying to think of my sort of when I was, I know, 5 to 10 years old, my Uncle Pat, he smoked roll ups. And I remember thinking at the time, how disgusting. And I remember when I was about 13, my dad gave me a cigar and said, smoke that. And I took one puff and that cured me of any desire to smoke again, apart from when I lived in Germany. Because in Germany in the early 1980s, smoking was cool and I didn't smoke. And I remember feeling really out of it because all my friends did. And I went down to the local tobacconist and bought a pack of 20 Camel cigarettes and smoked the lot one after the other. I thought, what is the appeal of this? I don't understand it. So the only time I ever smoked after that is if I was drunk.

[Ian Dale]

Well, referring to Scotland as a masculine nation, it was a little behind the curve when it came to women's lib. My mum said she remembered as an English woman marrying a Scot in 1970, went up to Highland, Scotland. Pubs were not a place where women went. And I remember all the manual workers, including my father on the estate, smoked. My dad did brilliant smokering, absolutely perfect ones. He'd sit in his chair smoking in the kitchen every single night. Passive smoking, of course, became a big thing in the 80s. But if you look at the link between smoking and illness given clearly we'd rumbled something in 1908. There was research being done in the early 1900s. By 1912, American doctors were saying there's an increased level of lung cancer. Nothing, nothing happens. Nothing happens. You're getting research in the 50s, 54, suddenly starting to think about it. Remember, we've had tobacco since the reign of James VI and James the First. He was absolutely anti tobacco being introduced, of course, or imported from the colonies. So this is a kind of 400 year journey. And suddenly in the 20th century, we're beginning to see Over a period of decades, a cranking up of research and concern about the impact on general health, but particularly young people's health. 1908. And then of course the passive smoking campaigns coming in later. And eventually you're getting the phasing out in public spaces that culminates in 2007. And also the age is lowered or raised rather than when it goes up to 18. I'd forgotten that children are unable to buy cigarettes until they reach the age of 18. I forgot that amendment to the law, which wasn't so long ago. Ian.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No. And the banning of smoking in public places. I remember being totally against. Even though I hate smoking. I don't like being in the same room as a smoker, though having said that, I'm married to a smoker who. Who for the first 25 years of our relationship would smoke 20 or 30 Silk Cut a day. And if you'd said to me that I would end up with somebody with that smoking habit, I would have laughed in your face. But for some reason he smoked silk cut. And I never. I never. I didn't find that particularly. Objection. Fashionable. Like if we're in the car, he'd always open the window.

[Ian Dale]

Partly the advertising in. I remember growing up, the glamour of the silk cut cigarettes in magazines, that beautiful purple, the satiny illustrious look of the silky slot.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you see that people could buy silky sluts. Yeah. He's now gone on to these. Oh, what they Philip Morris make them. They're not vapes, they're sort of of. They're called icon something or other Icon heats. And honestly, whenever he lights one up and you're in the car, I just want to gag because they smell like farts and he can't smell it, but I can and I absolutely hate. I'd rather he went back to silk cuts, to be honest.

[Ian Dale]

I can't believe that he smokes in the car. It was 1971 when finally a voluntary agreement between the tobacco companies and government was agreed, insisting that they put health warnings on their products. You then, as I said, mentioned the passive smoking. That was 1980s and it culminates in 2007 with legislation and enclosed public spaces. But I think the parallel I'm trying to make is how slow that was. Tobacco arrives in the 1600s. Finally in 1908, we think it might be a bit dodgy for kids to be rolling all these cigarettes out of these machines or tobaccos. And it takes another hundred years after 1908 for us to raise the age and to ban it in public spaces and yet look at the speed, the alacrity with which we've sat down on social media.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, just two final points on that. You rather cynically suggested that this was actually more to do with Keir Starmer wanting to protect his job. I think there is some evidence of that. Because what if there is a real concern that kids won't have enough to do? What he could have done is say, said, right, okay, here's 500 million for a new youth club in every single constituency, or the equivalent. I mean, I don't know how much it would cost to run a youth club, but let's say it was 500 million that he would have had a plan. But they've come up with these proposals so quickly after the end of the consultation that you, you kind of think the consultation, as people often suspect, was just for show. And second of all, I wonder what your daughter Mara thinks of this.

[Ian Dale]

Mara said she wished it had been implemented when she was that age, that she used to have to really struggle to discipline herself off social medias. If he had 500 extra million for each area to have a new youth club, he wouldn't have lost his Defence Secretary and his Armed Forces Minister in the last week.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, that's a, that's a very simplistic reading of it. If you want to find 500 million in a budget of over a trillion, you can do so. There's no argument about that. I mean, the defence budget, we're talking about billions, that's totally different. And I mean, some of the, some of the, I mean, going slightly on a tangent here, but some of the arguments about where they could find the money from are just utterly ludicrous. There's always ways to find money in government budget, if you really want to.

[Ian Dale]

I would say the reason why this has been pushed across the line, aside from the skin saving exercise that is Keir Starmer's legacy, is because politicians are genuinely concerned not just about the unemployability of the youth, but also about the impact this will have in the medium, long term on democracy.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think Keir Starmer will also be very worried about the reaction of Donald Trump, who he's about to, to meet at the G7 in Evian. I mean, that conversation could go. Well, it's only going to go one way, actually, because I think that Donald Trump is about to do to Keir Starmer what he tried to do to Angela Merkel in his first term and absolutely ritually humiliate her and ritually humiliate Keir Starmer. At this summit. But we will see.

[Ian Dale]

And of course the difference is Donald Trump, despite this piece that been rolled out, yet another one doesn't have the standing he had when he ripped into Angela Merkel. But yes, you're right, we shall see. Break and then into masculine tropes of Scottishness. And I know that you're desperate to talk about Andy Burnham. You will miss him after this by election's over. Oh no, I forgot he'll be running for Prime Minister.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

Right? We've got the by election on Thursday, so two days from when most people will be listening to this podcast. We should say, by the way, that we're going to record the second podcast of the week, unusually on Friday morning, because we don't really see the point of doing it on Thursday when we don't know the results. So it will be released as soon as. Actually, we haven't run this by Corey yet, but Corey, are you listening? Listening? Because he'll have to put it out. He does work on Fridays, unlike me, so you'll hope the king of the pod.

[Ian Dale]

You will need it from on high.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You will hopefully, Corey permitting, get the Friday podcast by midday on Friday. Now, it seems clear that the the wind is in Andy Burnham's sails at the moment for reasons I can't quite fathom because I mean, I don't know about you, but he comes up an awful lot on my Instagram reels and they are just so awful. It's sort of they're all about football. It's trying to prove that he's like, I know we've talked about this before, that he's like a normal person and you just think, no, no, no, you're making a complete fool of yourself and if this is the way that you're going to act as Prime Minister. And there are people without revealing their identity, Tessa, fairly close to us that are a bit obsessed by Andy Burnham, but even they in the last couple of weeks have started to see the light and realize that he's a complete and utter flake.

[Ian Dale]

What is it that you particularly take umbrage with? The fact that other than other than Ian, he's got a great thatch of hair.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He does, but he does, yeah, yeah.

[Ian Dale]

A very smooth forehead, rather suspiciously, well, suntanned. When's he had a chance to get such a.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, no, I'll give him that. Well, he's on the by election trail. When he's not in a media studio, he is actually out knocking on doors. And I remember when I did the 2005 general election, that was around this time of the year. And you do get a bit of a tan, even if there isn't a lot of sun, which I doubt whether there is in Makerfield. So I'll cut him some slack for that. He's got wonderful eyelashes, he's a good looking guy, but a Prime Minister he doth not make, I'm afraid. And I'm told that that Victoria Derbyshire interview with him on Newsnight did him incredible damage Among Labour members, MPs who were thinking of supporting him. And you look below the surface and there's nothing there. He's flip flopped on virtually every major issue and he's done it again on the Waspy women this week. Absolutely ludicrous position that he took and then had to reverse ferret on it. And that is what he's mainly known for. And that's the complaint that is made against Keir Starmer that he flip flops on everything, that he has no ideological grounding, he doesn't really believe in anything and Andy Burnham is a replica of that. But he can sell things better. But what's he got to sell? That's the problem. We still don't know. Now you can cut him some slack and say, well, once the by election is over, he'll set out his stall for what he'd do as Prime Minister but I don't think it'll be worth the paper that it's written on.

[Ian Dale]

I was disappointed he came out supporting the triple lock because obviously in Makerfield I don't know what the Demographics are, but I'd imagine a fair schlock of the voters over a certain age and are heavily invested in holding onto the triple lock. But when he says it's a commitment manifesto, commitment and therefore we need to stand by, I think he's much more looking about his own personal localized win. But the affordability of the triple lock, I just really long for a politician to grasp the nettle and be honest about it. By the way, the triple lock and I just double down to check on this. There are three measures and each year the state pension is guaranteed to increase by the highest of these three measures, average earnings growth, inflation or baseline of 2.5%. And even Jeremy Hunt now admits he incensed me in the Times, by the way, trying to explain to Keir Starmer how money could be saved from the welfare budget to pay for the defence shortfall when he was the one man who made me richer when he was a chancellor by giving me extra welfare payments.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That is a fair point. You sent me that article and so I read it unusually, and you said you thought it was ridiculous. I was got to the end of it and I thought, well, I don't see there's anything ridiculous about it. I mean, I take the point about that he made you richer, but he, he's, he's fundamentally right, even though he did things which were against what he's saying today.

[Ian Dale]

Because we all know that it's much easier to stipulate and push for unpopular political changes when you're not in power, but as soon as they're in power, they bend, which is why Andy Burnham sticking up for the triple lock. But anyway, even Jeremy Hunt said that we could reduce those three measures just to one, to inflation, and that alone would save us £5 billion a year. But it won't happen and it certainly won't do. It won't happen under Burnham's watch. He's very good at giving away money because he's a mayor, but actually, you're quite right, he's a continuity candidate. But maybe, yeah, he's a bit, He's a bit more left of Starmer. But maybe you could argue that the, the, the primary failing of Keir Starmer is his inability to articulate what his government's doing and that's the one thing Andy can do. So really, you're just changing the mouthpiece, that's all you're doing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, well, I think he'll be. If he does win, and I'm still not convinced in terms of the by election, I think he probably Will, at the beginning of the campaign I said I thought Reform would win, but I do think the intervention of Rupert Low's party has damaged that prospect, which is highly ironic when you think it's exactly what Reform did to the Conservatives. And interestingly, Nigel Farage has come back into the fray over the past few days, which, I mean he'd been absent for quite a long time and he did a sort of rather schmaltzy hour long interview with Nick Ferrari like to replace destination Desert island is. So it was never going to be something where Nick Ferrari was going to particularly grill him and it was an interesting watch and you sort of learned a lot about his background and personality. But I, I wonder whether if Reform lose this, they will. They're starting to get a real track record of being the, the sort of bridesmaids, but never the bride. They, they, they, they've lost several by elections before this and if this, if they lose this one in an area that is prime Reform territory, you look at the, not only the demographics but the electoral history of that constituency, they ought to be walking it. And my doubts are that they won't and of course. But if they do win, I mean quite what Andy Burnham does then, apart from go back to Manchester City hall with his tail between his legs. I don't know.

[Ian Dale]

I think that would be toast for Burnham. Just quickly on the idea of BBC bias, because they've never had Nigel Farish on Desert Island Discovery. No, they haven't, but they have had Nigel Farage 38 times on question Time, which you could also argue is BBC bias.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, that's a complete and utter myth. That is over a period of about 20 years and given his status as a party leader, of course he's going to have been on quite a lot. Ken Clark has been on far more than Nigel Farage even during that time period. So I don't really buy that. I don't think he's been banned from Desert Island Discs, but. Well, I think that was a sort of got up story.

[Ian Dale]

He just hasn't made the threshold. But I was interested that over the weekend the Sunday, the Mail on Sunday came out against Restore, saying they had

[Tessa Dunlop]

party very vicious today. The Daily Mail as well.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, which I think declares the Mail really as a reform paper now, doesn't it? As opposed to a Conservative one. That would deeply worry me if I was Kemi Badenoch.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I don't think that's true. I think it just means that they want Reform to win the by election rather than Andy Burnham to be Discussed.

[Ian Dale]

I desperately wanted to do a deep dive into the Maid of Norway, but I think with questions we might be short of time. But suffice to say what she teaches us because I do want to go into her in more depth than another pod. She's so fascinating. This is, you know, the idea of Scottishness versus English.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is she the one that died? She was drowned, wasn't she? Died, apparently shed on the way to claiming her throat.

[Ian Dale]

Really acute seasickness, which I can empathize with. She.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, me too. Oh my God.

[Ian Dale]

She arrives in Orkney. But crucially, of course, no.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, if you're going to do, if you, if you're going to do it, then let's do it in another episode.

[Ian Dale]

I just need to say that properly. Orkney wasn't Scottish at the time, of course, it was Norwegian. So she didn't even die. Destined for home soil. But I think I just really wanted to make the point that everyone, all these, the Norwegians, the English, the Scottish were sort of picking over this toddler and her inheritance and who was going to marry her. It was destined to be Edward I, of course, famously renowned for being Hammer of the Scots, who was going to marry her off to his son, less impressive warrior Edward ii. It didn't happen. But was it but this ignominity of not only failing to deliver an heir because tragically Alexander iii, he dies horribly falling off a horse and all his three children die. And so he ends up having to pin his hopes on this granddaughter, but failing to deliver an heir. Having this dead child of about five or six years old who doesn't even arrive in Scotland. Is it any wonder that subsequently you then have the rise of William Wallace and Robert the Bruce? Less I'm talking here about their impact on the ground in terms of powering the nation of Scotland and ideas of it in the wars of Independence and more their long term impact on ideas of Scotland for posterity. Super masculine, super strong, always playing the underdog, taking the fight. The David versus the Goliath that's really endured in a way that I think is quite remarkable, to be honest. And I pin it not on William Wallace's bravery, but on the Maid of Norway's death.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And of course you can read about Robert the Bruce in my book, the Generals. You can see up there on my bookshelf.

[Ian Dale]

Such a neat segue, I thought.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I thought so. Only, only out over the last week and it's selling. I. I went into Waterstones in Piccadilly, the big one, what's it called? Waterstones Piccadilly, I suppose. And it's on their front display, which I was rather proud of.

[Ian Dale]

Wow, that's incredibly impressive. Impressive. And read the Maid of Norway because there's so much more to say. I then started looking into how she was perceived in the Victorian era and no wonder. The Scots have been brain for independence. All these English writers saying, oh, of course, really? England by that stage was an overlord of Scotland. Anyway, like I was incandescent with rage leaving the British Library. So when Scotland next plays a football match, that's another excuse to do more on the little known Maid of Norway, who was actually called Margaret.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I presume you will be supporting England on Wednesday.

[Ian Dale]

I will, but I would always support the underdog.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That makes you unique among Scots. There was a wonderful little Instagram reel I saw the other day. It was outside the Scotland match and this very brave man was walking along the pavement wearing an England shirt. And of course all the Scotland supporters were shouting abuse at him. And then he got to the end of it and then took it off and then they all started cheering him. It was quite good. But I've always found this really weird that. I mean, I've always supported any home nation which I include Republic of Ireland in. I don't get angry with me Irish listeners. I've always supported them in World Cups. I want them to win every single match. But you won't get many Scots supporting England, will you?

[Ian Dale]

You know why? It's because of the disproportionate size of England in Bigger. No, it's about the disproportionate weight and clout of England and relations.

[Tessa Dunlop]

All part of the same country.

[Ian Dale]

Parcel of nations. But they don't all want to be part of the same country.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And, well, Scotland's more about. Scotland has its own parliament, England doesn't.

[Ian Dale]

The best example of that, of course, was Brexit, where the heft and the weight of England dictated to Northern Ireland and Scotland.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Congratulations in waiting 50 minutes to get the B word into the podcast. It's usually within the first five minutes. I'm very impressed by that.

[Ian Dale]

Called for a break ages ago, Corey. Ages ago. Strict orders. You know, I disrespect the plugging aspect of any port, but.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you're about to plug something that you're doing.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I'm allowed to plug something I'm

[Tessa Dunlop]

doing, but I think makes it okay.

[Ian Dale]

I think I'm up against. I think I'm up against the World Cup. Luckily, I'm not up against England playing, but on sky history, World War II with Tom Hanks, episode nine, Secrets and Lies, featuring none other than Dr. Tessa Dunlop. Nine o'. Clock.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'm actually watching that series. It is very much, should we say World War II dumbed down. Have you watched it?

[Ian Dale]

Yes, I have watched it. Of course.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's a really good. If you don't know much about World War II, it's a really good introduction. But it's very tabloidy. I think it's. It's a bit like sort of the worst of the Channel 5 Royal Documentaries. I mean most of them are actually really good, particularly the ones featuring you and me, but some of them are just so dumbed down you think, well, it's not really worth watching.

[Ian Dale]

I'm just going to ignore that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm sure you're very good in this one.

[Ian Dale]

I'm going to move on to questions on the Instagram at wherepolitics meets history. This is from Connor. He says good afternoon dear Ian and Tessa on purpose. Addressed by first name regarding your question of associations regarding England by foreigners from my German experience. Positive, always understated, never emphasize their titles. Elegant English humour, musical influences. The Beatles, Impeccable style, Extremely polite. Clearly not when it comes to football. Queuing, quietly spoken, I. E. Packed tube carriages are so silent. But he writes the old stigmas remain. Lobsters on the beach, crooked teeth, constant rain, binge drinkers, bland food. Oh, and here they are. Football hooligans. Foreign language textbooks apparently still reinforce these stereotypes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And the fact that we're all obsessed by the loss of empire, that that is a really big stereotype type in Germany I find.

[Ian Dale]

Incidentally, that was from Bianca. I wrongly attributed it to Connor. Okay, next question from you please.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Liam from Jersey. Does Starmer really think the mod's video of Royal Marines boarding the Russian Shadow Fleet vessel in the English Channel demonstrates Britain's strength? Particularly while his government faces scrutiny over recent high profile defense resignations. The production value of the footage makes it look more look like a promotional film. Does he believe the public will be swayed by eye catching videos while more substantive questions about defence policy and leadership remain? I don't know who authorized that to go out. I thought it was an interesting development that given the number of Russian ships that have gone through the English Channel, why pick on this one? I think it was the right thing to do. Interesting. I haven't seen any reaction from Moscow, but then I haven't really been following the news much over the last couple of days. Have you seen anything?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I did. Was it the Russian Foreign Minister who said that they may well just start to detonate some of those ships. That is, if somebody tries to hijack a pirate sea, you could call it one of their shadow fleet, they'll just blow it up. Which did make me really start to seriously worry about the 2:25 foreign nationals of mixed heritage and country origin who were working on this said vessel.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why would you worry about them? Why would you worry about them? They knew exactly what they were doing. They were taking illegal oil to Russia. So why would you have any concern about them at all?

[Ian Dale]

If you've ever even worked on a cruise ship, you know that often some of the most vulnerable individuals work on the oceans. The rules of the seven seas. They need a job, they're trying to feed their family from whichever country they've come from. And I think that you're actually naive to suggest that they all are fully literate in terms of the heinous crimes that Russia is committing depending on their country of origin. Remember we get a certain perspective in the news. Ukraine are our allies, we're funding Ukraine and we desperately want to beat Russia. But if you're coming from a country, whether it's for example Mumbai in India or perhaps even Indonesia or Cambodia, was it destined, was it Cameroonian vessel or a Cambodian vessel? I think it was a Cambodian vessel. I would suggest that the workers on that ship weren't fully cognizant of Britain's agenda in the war.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Of course they were. Well, it's got nothing to do with Britain. The fact is it was an illegal shipment and they would have been fully aware of that when they took the job on the ship. So I have absolutely no sympathy with them at all. What I wonder now though is what happens happens. I mean it was intercepted. Do they just intercept it and then let it go on its way or what?

[Ian Dale]

They're now tethering it, aren't they? And they're doing some research into the hundred thousand liters or whatever it is of oil that's on board. I do think it really is literally a drop in the ocean, forgive the pun. There are apparently 700 of these shadow vessels. And given the pounding overnight that Ukraine took, 600 drones unleashed across Ukraine last night, 70 ballistic missiles, 20 escaped the anti aircraft defence. An 11th century cathedral was hit in the centre of Kyiv. It was a UNESCO site. On the day, of course, that Ukraine has started, I think somewhat futilely, negotiations to join the eu. We need to do more than board one shadow vessel in the English Channel.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But you still think that the welfare of the people on board that vessel should be the primary care concern.

[Ian Dale]

It would just make me extremely hesitant about taking a job on one of those vessels, that's all. If I think it might get detonated at any point, just from a practical point of view.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Another question?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I do. Here we have somebody who's withholding his name for reasons that apparently will become apparent, he says this week. So, last week, Kemi Badenot pledged that a Conservative government would repeal the public sector equality duty and rejected what she called identity politics. As someone with a disability who has struggled to get their workplace to implement reasonable adjustments under the Equality act, this terrifies me. The EA has so many loopholes for employers to exploit already. Doesn't weakening it further make it less likely that people with disabilities get the support they need to get into work? I've never understood this part of the Tory conundrum. They want to reduce welfare and get more people back into work, rightly, but don't actually want people at work to have better employment rights and security. Lots of stick but no carrot.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think the Tories have said they want to abolish that piece of legislation and replace it with another one. So it doesn't mean to say the disability. I mean, just remember for a minute, who was it who introduced the original Disability Discrimination act in 1995? It was a Conservative government, not a Labour one. And that was a groundbreaking piece of legislation, legislation which did put extra duties on employers. No one's suggesting that that should go, but there are aspects to the Equalities act which I think a lot of people can see have gone too far and put far too many duties and restrictions on employers. And look, it's quite clear, as Jeremy Hunt I think, made clear in that Sunday Times article, the more regulation you put on employers, the less likely they are to employ new people. We know that the GDP growth of countries which have deregulated is 2% higher than those which haven't. And it's clear as night follows day that our economy now is so over regulated in all sorts of different areas that I think the Tories are quite right to look at what they can do to make things better. Now, I. Look, look, I don't want anything to happen to disadvantaged disabled people. I think one of the great things over the last 20 years is that disabled people have been able to work in a way that they possibly weren't able to before. I'm not suggesting that we've actually got to where we need to be, but if you look at the amount of welfare benefits spent on disabled people compared to even 10 years ago. I mean, it's massive. And yet when you talk to individual disabled people, they say, well, I'm not seeing any of it, so I don't know where this money's going.

[Ian Dale]

That Jeremy Hunt article, I absolutely wish I hadn't put it in the WhatsApp group. I really do.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, another one from Sam Wood.

[Ian Dale]

Please get your questions in at Where Politics Meetshistory on the Instagram if you would like me to curate them and select the best. Otherwise you can email Ian, who gets the final say on the this podcast because he's generalist, he's taken time off his holiday on his wedding anniversary to join us online.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And if you want to email your question, it's where politics meets historyactglobal.com Sam Wood says as an accomplished scholar, shouldn't Tessa know that in the Shakespeare derived phrase hoist with his own petard? The word hoist already acts as a past participle and does not require the ed suffix what her model, modern idiomatic English, may allow for such usage, much like it now allows literally to mean figuratively. We rely on our public intellectuals to defend the precision of our language. Additionally, While listening to Ian's LBC show, I was surprised to find Mr. Dale, somewhat a cunning linguist himself, is apparently unaware of the difference between indefinite and permanent.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's us told, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Nevertheless, I continue to listen to every episode. The show's format encourages the kind of good natured disagreement that is essential to avoiding echo chambers in today's society. That said, I do find I have to calm myself in preparation for Tessa's pathological dedication to the luxury beliefs of the middle class. I share this perspective as a working class woman rather than from the much maligned far right male viewpoint that is so often dismissed. There we go.

[Ian Dale]

Guttingly. I need to go down and check what's happening in the downstairs sitting room. I think I missed the most the most important sentence of that message. I don't know if it was agin me or for me cut out. I daren't ask, but can you tell me? Here's a general knowledge question. Hoist, buy your own petard or words to that effect. Which Shakespeare play does it come from?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've no idea because I've only ever read one Shakespeare play and that was one too many.

[Ian Dale]

Hamlet, my friend. Hamlet. Just quickly on new words and expressions I listened to on your advice. I re listened to it because I fell asleep the first time. Wes Streeting being interviewed by Lewis Goodall, who's A bright boy went to St John's Oxford. I noticed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It was good, wasn't it?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And he's a bright boy, Lewis Goodall. And he said, are you impugning the Prime Minister? And I thought, it's a great use of the word and I'm going to use it more to impugn someone. Can you tell me what it means?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you implicate or no, you put views on someone that they may not have.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. It's more negative than that, though. It's to denigrate them or to imply adversely. It's to challenge, to criticize, to cause

[Tessa Dunlop]

questions, which is what you do all the time. To me.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, I regularly impugn Ian Dale. On that note, I'm just taking my top off because I had to close the window for noise reasons. And I'm now having a little hot moment in the attic. I'm going to bid you farewell. You can go back to your football. We'll reconvene once England's beaten Croatia 2 nil. If it's anything less than that, it's a national disgrace. And in the week, Andy Barnum's I think probably. Oh, God. Andy Burnham's considerable, I think considerable, considerable victory in Makerfield, but maybe I'll get that wrong as well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'm going to predict an anti burner victory by 1500 votes and the refor, the restore vote will be 1600 and that will send Nigel Farage into a paroxysm of anger. Anyway, I will go and enjoy the rest of my holiday and. Continue reading. It's laughingly called a holiday, but I think I'll take. Told you earlier, I'm spending most of it recording my audiobook, which. And I've had to learn how to use an edit piece of editing software, Audacity, which I'm quite pleased that I have taught myself how to use. And as you will know, Tessa, I've worked out how to edit videos on Capcut for Instagram and I'm very pleased with myself for that. So, goodness, I mean, that way does lie madness, doesn't it?

[Ian Dale]

I think it's very important for the elderly to embrace new skills. Congratulations, Ian. Go forth, multiply and enjoy your Prince Albert.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, my God. Goodbye, ladies and gentlemen,

[Ian Dale]

this has been a global production.

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