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- [00:03]
A
This is a global production. It's now the 250th anniversary of independence. How's Donald Trump celebrating that?
- [00:10]
B
I think it's been an unmitigated disaster. It's become, if you like, a metaphor, hasn't it, what's been unfolding, especially in the National Mall in Washington, D.C. a metaphor for his swamp, like tenure in office.
- [00:27]
A
If you make something about yourself rather than the country. And that seems to me what Trump has tried to do with this. I mean, putting his face on. What was it, a $250 banknote or something? I mean, it's just crass, isn't it? And people see through that. I feel we ought to be starting by a joint rendition of We Are Sailing. How is your cruising going?
- [00:56]
B
Well, actually, I thought there'd be a significant Rule Britannia vibe. I have in the past been on piano ships before they were bought out, where you set sail from Southampton to Rule Britannia and the flutter of Union Jacks. But this is a Cunard Canard, as I've discovered it's called. He has a statue, actually, Mr. Canard and Halifax Canadian Guy. It's a canard ship which is now owned by America, and there's quite a lot of Americans and Australians, Aliens on board. Watering down that post imperial vibe, Ian.
- [01:33]
A
Well, that. That's lovely to hear. Are there many Russians on board? Because I think that on a lot of cruises, there are quite a few Russians.
- [01:41]
B
I haven't met any Russians, but I did venture finally into the dining hall last night, and I was making polite conversation to the waiter. He was called Dennis, which was spelled in a weird way. And I said, because you can ask, what, on a ship in the middle of the ocean, where are you from? Because all of us are from somewhere. You know, it doesn't come with the same sting it does in Britain. And he looked really embarrassed, went red and went, Ukraine. I was like, oh, I think you're absconding. I didn't say that. Obviously. In my head. In my head I thought that, but I didn't say it. I went, oh, I'll have the rose.
- [02:18]
A
Have you been hit on yet?
- [02:20]
B
No, I haven't. I've got to say, I've got. I realize there's several clear features of a cruise. By the way, the canard is pretty opulent. It is with the more American clientele. As a couple of the staff members said, oh, yes, this is one of the better ships and Americans have more money. I think what they meant was more tips. But you've got to be into Several things. You really need to be into food, Ian, so I think you'd have to leave your Manjiro injections behind. Okay. I think you also have to be into service and that's where that kind of slightly post imperial vibe comes in. You have to like being waited on. And for some reason I've always found it a little bit embarrassing. Being waited on.
- [03:10]
A
Yeah, I think I'm probably. I'm with you on that one. I think I, I, yeah, I, I know exactly what you mean. That, that's feeling of slight awkwardness.
- [03:19]
B
Yes, exactly. And I, he's a delightful man who cleans my room and so forth, but it, it's just a bit awkward. I don't know, I sort of think, well, who cleans your room? It's not that I'm that much of an equalitist and equalitous, I don't think there is such a word, but there is something going down there for me. And also then I get sort of over engaged in conversation and, and sort of ask some questions and then don't know how to sort of withdraw anyway. These are just mere social issues and niceties. Funnily enough, while I'm cruising, America will have celebrated 250th birthday. So I'm going to have to slightly moderate my final speech to take in the American clientele. Without dividing them, Ian, because by the time we record the next pod, they will be a quarter of a century free of great British rule. The Americans, how do we feel they're getting on at the moment? We're going to address that, aren't we?
- [04:10]
A
We are going to do just that. But of course you're not recording the next pod because you will be in transit.
- [04:17]
B
Yes, from Trieshti via Frankfurt. I'm really sorry. I did try everything I could to resolve that. It proved impossible.
- [04:23]
A
Your loss is Natasha Clark's gain. Well, I'm not going to say the listeners gain at all, obviously, because I'm too loyal for that. So have you sung for your supper yet?
- [04:35]
B
I've done one lecture, yes. I think that the next one I will modify so that it doesn't look, it's not too British focused. I wasn't aware the Cleantel were as mixed. It was fine, it went down well. But I think this next one I'm going to broaden it out a little. Settle.
- [04:49]
A
And how many people are on the ship?
- [04:51]
B
About 2,000.
- [04:52]
A
And how many, how many came to see you perform?
- [04:55]
B
A healthy number. A few hundred. I sold some books.
- [04:58]
A
A few hundred?
- [04:59]
B
Yeah. Because, because when I set off. I'm not used to having two suitcases. One was full of books, Ian, and the other was full of pants. And my taxi pulled on me at 4:30 in the morning. So I was trying again to get to Heathrow. First taxi fail. And I'm sitting in the Uber, which I've plumped for, and I'm crossing Vauxhall Brid. So halfway to Paddington, I've decided to go for the Heath. And I look around and I think I feel a bit light. And I realize I've remembered the suitcase with books, but I've forgotten the one with pants.
- [05:30]
A
God,
- [05:33]
B
you know how much, in the end, how much it cost me to get my pants to Heathrow? Me and my pants.
- [05:39]
A
Probably about £130, 180 quid.
- [05:43]
B
The Uber clocked up 180 quid. And me and the driver and I both tried calling Uber. Yeah, this is. This is. I'm going to pin this to. Not to poor old Keir Starmer. But one of the reasons he's so unpopular, he looks like a robot. He seemingly resembles the automated world we live in, where there is no accountability. We've ironed out human interaction. So even when you're on the ground with the service provider, in this case the driver, and they're indignant that the fare, because you've added on Heathrow has just gone through the roof and they're calling from their end, nothing can be done because there's a tech bro in the sky raking up the money. Ian. And that happens not just on Ubers, but wizard Internet providers, telephone providers, anyone?
- [06:29]
A
I mean, I. I'm as critical of Keir Starmer as the next person, but I think to blame that on him, I think he's slightly stretching it, if I may say so.
- [06:37]
B
No, I don't mean it's his fault, but I think because he's got this rather inhumane Persona, it looks like he's been programmed by a bot. The way he speaks, it's sort of. And I think that he's become the personification of this remote world we can't get through to. It's the sort of. The service providers that no longer work. Oh, no, it's absolutely not his fault. But I think the gear change that we're going to see coming down the line, it's all about communication. The most obvious example was when Kemi Badenok accused Burnham of being all T shirt and eyebrows, black T shirt. And he looks down and he does that very quick response on his phone saying, oh, it's a Blue one, actually. And we don't get that from Keir Starmer. There's this sort of long delay and a stiff response, like it's been programmed in a AI app.
- [07:29]
A
We might be interrupted during this podcast. I should warn you now because I have a very significant event happening today. Can you. Can you guess what that is?
- [07:37]
B
Right, It's Thursday. You're not talking at some lunchtime event.
- [07:41]
A
No, no.
- [07:42]
B
With the Conservative.
- [07:46]
A
No. My book is arriving from the printers.
- [07:49]
B
Oh, you can.
- [07:50]
A
And you know how exciting that is when you see your. Yeah. What I will do if it comes while we're recording. So. I hate it, though, when they say it's definitely going to arrive on Thursday and then it doesn't. Or it arrives just after you've left to go to London. But. So I'm quite looking forward to that. I'm just looking at the picture. Oh, my God, the bags under my eyes. I literally have just got out of bed, so I suppose that's the reason. But you haven't got any bags at all, darling.
- [08:17]
B
I've been at rest.
- [08:21]
A
But what do you do all day?
- [08:23]
B
I'm writing a new book proposal.
- [08:25]
A
Oh, right.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah. But. But I. I am working a bit because if not, I'll come return to a backlog. I'm pretending, obviously, to the. The powers that be at home, that I'm having to lecture much more than I am actually having to lecture, so they don't think I'm just on a busk. Elena's now got access to a WhatsApp and I get 10 million messages a day saying she's missing me. Oh. Several questions said, we talk barbecue too much. We did too much.
- [08:50]
A
No.
- [08:50]
B
One navel gazing.
- [08:52]
A
One did.
- [08:53]
B
Yeah. Well, I think we need to take on board criticism from our listeners on the subject.
- [08:57]
A
But what you have to remember is that if you maybe got three people say that, think of the thousands that didn't say that. They all probably rather enjoyed our little banter about social soiree.
- [09:11]
B
I still like to take on board criticism, which is why I've failed, singularly failed, to change my personality. Despite all the haters for the last year and a half and a half. I was sitting next to a listener on the flight out here.
- [09:23]
A
No. Oh, no, I actually. No, I know you were. I know who it was. It was super fan Mackie.
- [09:29]
B
It was extraordinary.
- [09:31]
A
I think he engineered it.
- [09:32]
B
Do you?
- [09:33]
A
Yeah. There is no. There is no way. There is no way on earth that you would just randomly bump into him at Heathrow Airport and then suddenly find yourself Sitting next to him on the plane. He would. He would have. He would have sorted that. He's. Because he's your new stalker.
- [09:50]
B
Well, I don't mind stalker, so long as they don't have guns. We're not in America, for goodness sake. I was flying to Italy. I was in Heathrow, obviously.
- [09:57]
A
He usually has a gun in his pocket, though, because he's pleased to see you.
- [10:00]
B
Okay, right, well, that's gone down a rabbit hole. I didn't anticipate. I was just going to gently say I bump into him in Heathrow when I'm still recovering from my 180 pound Uber fare. It's quite expensive. And he said, hi, Tessa. And I sort of manage a high and bustle off, wishing I'd look more presentable. And I get on the flight and, yeah, you're right. I sit down and I'm sitting down next to him and then I discover you might be right, actually. Because he works for ba.
- [10:28]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [10:31]
B
Hadn't thought of that.
- [10:32]
A
No.
- [10:33]
B
Well, he didn't tell me that he'd engineered it. He just said, oh, look, isn't that amazing? Isn't that such a coincidence?
- [10:38]
A
Isn't it just. You're so naive and innocent.
- [10:42]
B
But, Ian, two really interesting things. The Brexit metric. He has an Irish passport. So we are chatting away and we're coming out in Rome, trundling along with our handhelds. Both of us have to go to the baggage retrieval band. He gets peeled off, literally. The woman opens up a little ticker tape and lets him through because of his Irish passport. And he goes, I'll text you from baggage retention and I'll wait for you. And I get sent in a loop upstairs and back, downstairs, back to where I began. In the meantime, he's at baggage retrieval. He's picked up his bag. We work out that I'm in a Brexit queue for an hour, Ian. An hour of my life that Mackie lived, and I didn't. Because of your Brexit.
- [11:33]
A
Good.
- [11:35]
B
You. I'm really struggling, apparently, with this. It's all to do with this new
- [11:38]
A
fingerprinting and photography, but actually, that's nothing to do with Brexit. You know, that applies to everyone throughout the world. It's nothing to do with just Brits.
- [11:46]
B
No. But it's because we're not in the EU that we're not ushered on through, that we have to be fingerprinted and photographed.
- [11:51]
A
But it's.
- [11:51]
B
So it is to do with Brexit.
- [11:53]
A
No, it isn't. It's because they're doing it for everybody who's not in the eu, including Americans, including Russians, including sort of Africans. So, yeah, I mean, if we're in the eu, you probably. They wouldn't have it, I suppose.
- [12:06]
B
Yeah. So, 100 to do with Brexit. Oh.
- [12:09]
A
Oh, poor you. Sorry for you.
- [12:12]
B
I just quickly.
- [12:13]
A
180 pound. Do you prefer.
- [12:17]
B
Yeah, you. How can I blame that on Brexit? Sure, there's a connection. And then also another Brexit tally, because I might make a list and score them through in groups of five. I was listening because I thought I must clock into the news. Can't just talk about Trump's reflecting pool. Lincoln reflecting pool in the second part, by the way, coming up. As well as how we burnt the White House when we were the Goliath and America was the David. But just quickly, I was listening that the BBC have managed to abscond this major trafficker based in Calais Cali, with former convictions. Why wasn't he caught by the Home Office or the police? And apparently it's because data sharing at levels below Interpol simply doesn't happen. Wait for it. Because of Brexit.
- [13:05]
A
It wasn't our doing. This is. This is why, when I say that Brussels tries to punish us and still does 10 years on, it's things like this because they don't need to do that. It's to their advantage, actually, to have full data sharing and full cooperation between police forces. But they. They've decided on all sorts of different issues to do that now, if you want to sort of. I mean, we were actually in some ways just as vital to them as we were as they are to us in terms of all of that, in terms of policing and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, I mean, I'm sure over time that that will be resolved. But, I mean, I think it's. It's very interesting hearing all the drum beats coming out of the. The Cabinet Office about the negotiations to become closer to the eu. All of the blockages are at their
- [13:55]
B
end, but we knew, Ian, 27 against one, that we would have the weaker hand. We are the David, they are the Goliath. Let's not go down the Brexit route. Let's focus on.
- [14:05]
A
You started it as. As usual, by the way, you won't have seen this, but there was a really lovely moment in PM QS yesterday when Keir Starmer started off by. He got a question from a Liberal Democrat MP and it was something about a new hospital that wasn't being built in his constituency. And he was complaining about it. So Keir Starmer stands up and he goes, yeah, it isn't being built because you've complained that it's going to mean that the golf course won't close. I've never heard of the golf course will have to close. He said, I've never heard of anything more Lib Dem. So then Kemi Badenot gets up to ask her questions and she says, could I just associate myself with the remarks of the Prime Minister on X, Y and Z and totally with his remarks on the Lib Dems. And Keir Starmer actually laughed. And then Kerry Badenock had this rather coquettish laugh, and it was just one of those lovely little moments that you sometimes get in the Commons.
- [15:02]
B
I think that actually Keir Starmer and Cami Badenot quite like each other on a human level. Don't you think?
- [15:09]
A
I don't think so. I really don't.
- [15:11]
B
Don't you? It's interesting because.
- [15:13]
A
Well, maybe I think he takes it really personally when she has a go at him.
- [15:18]
B
From her end, though, there's. Don't you think she realizes that her nemesis has fallen and that actually, beneath the facade, there's just a frail human ego, a frail male?
- [15:30]
A
Well, I think she does, and I think that's why she has certainly, last week, possibly more than this week, she. She has pulled her punches, because I think she does understand that there is a human element to all of this and it will happen to possibly happen to her one day as well. But I don't think he forgives her for some of the things that she said over the years.
- [15:49]
B
But also by pulling her punches, she exposes labor and what they're doing to Keir Starmer for the cruelty that's implicit in it. I'm not saying that there's any way around that, but it definitely does leave clear blue water for labor to be inflicting damage on their own. Ooh. On Combat Kids, Angela Rayner yesterday, she's been very quiet, hasn't she?
- [16:13]
A
She has. And I don't really understand why she's been cleared. I mean, I was always convinced that she would be the next leader and that she would stand, but no, she's. She's completely gone into the background she
- [16:25]
B
could have done because she was cleared on the day that Wes Streeting resigned and there was potential there that both of them could have stolen a march. It was also the same day that Andy said he was going to stand and make a field. But, yeah, the route's been open to her and yet there she was, clearly setting her stall in behind Andy yesterday. Talking of devolved power, how England. Specifically England, because, of course, we have devolution in Wales and Scotland is one of the most centralized countries on earth and how much this costs us. Although I go back to the fact that all forms of devolved government cost money.
- [17:01]
A
Of course they do. Should we finish off our little fluffy bit at the top? Did you have the World cup match on yesterday? England again, I can't. I won't call it Dr. Congo. I mean, it's the Democratic Republic of Congo or the DRC. This whole thing about Dr. Congo, it really gets my goat. But did you say you watched it?
- [17:23]
B
Yes. There's a big football bar upstairs. Yeah.
- [17:26]
A
And what was the atmosphere like?
- [17:28]
B
The ship shook when Harry finally scored. It tilted.
- [17:33]
A
It was quite something because it just seemed to be. You're too young to remember this, but in 1973, England were knocked out of the qualifying stages of the World Cup. So we didn't go to Germany in 1974 by Poland. And their goalkeeper was a man called Jan Tomaszewski. And he put in what still remains the best goalkeeping performance I've ever seen. He literally got everything. And England, like, peppered his goal, could not score. And Brian Clough, who was on the ITV commentary team before the match, called him a clown and basically said he was absolutely useless and we would score loads of goals. Well, in the end, we scored one. And the. The Congo goalkeeper just reminded me of him because he was literally on everything, wasn't he?
- [18:19]
B
He was on everything. Extraordinary. It reminds me of when, you know, when Scotland up against it, because they always talk about the amazing performance of their goalkeeper. Congo's goalkeeper was absolutely performing at this. And I've got to say, I think England are going to come horribly unstuck in the wee small hours of Monday morning at home for the te Lessons in Texas. Like, that's gonna be messy, isn't it? If last night they're playing.
- [18:42]
A
They're playing Mexico in Mexico City at the Azteca Stadium.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah. Mexico at home.
- [18:48]
A
Yeah. You just said Texas.
- [18:50]
B
Oh, I meant Mexico. Well, I, I, you know, I met Mexico. Cut that bit, Corey. You know that. I met Mexico there. I just got my exes in a muddle. They're very near each other across the border, so. But it's going to be messy. I think Mexico is going to wipe the floor with England.
- [19:06]
A
I mean, they may well do because, of course, the stadium is 2000 meters above sea level. So, I mean, England have been quite lucky. So Far, because they've been played. I don't think they've actually had a game where they've played when it's been really, really, really hot. They played in Boston, they played in Kansas. I don't know where the one was yesterday. So that, that may well be there on doing. But I. I tend to agree with you. I don't think that we're going to get past Mexico, though.
- [19:32]
B
It's just not been convincing.
- [19:34]
A
No, no, it really hasn't. Anyway, let's get on to the meat of the podcast, actually. Now, one thing before we do, you obviously have done one of your lectures. So that means that when you walk around the ship, you're presumably recognized quite a lot because Kay Burley, when she does these cruises, she always says to them, now, I want to do it on the last day. So she isn't recognized, or I'm sure she is a bit. So she can just have the. The rest of the cruise like an ordinary punter. But you are obviously the celeb. Celeb on the ship. Who else is? Are there any. Are there any other celebs?
- [20:05]
B
No, there aren't. And actually the celeb issue, because I'm always worried that I'm not famous enough. You know, I get imposter syndrome.
- [20:12]
A
I would be.
- [20:13]
B
When I walked into the room, it was, well, posh. And rather than thinking, yes, I've made it, I was like, oh, I've got to do a really good lecture. Like, I just. It just kind of doubled down on my imposter syndrome and gave me sort of of fear, terror.
- [20:27]
A
Do you have an actual script or do you just sort of wander around the stage and talk?
- [20:31]
B
Oh, I just kind of bumble around, you know, do a little bit of a performance. Yeah, I. I added when we were leaving Rome, so I added a bit. I had one of my veterans, one of my Bletchley girls, was in Rome before the Second World War because her father was Eratache. So she met Hitler and Mussolini. And I had an audio clip of her meeting Hitler when they signed the pack of Steel in 1939. And of course, her secret weapon was her schoolgirl, Italian, which she then deployed at Bletchley Park. So I kind of started on that. So there was a linking point. But I think I was just going to say, because it's quite an international ship, the fact I'm not a giant celebrity in Britain doesn't matter quite as much. It's more about my performance in the moment.
- [21:08]
A
Ian, I'm sure you were fabulous.
- [21:10]
B
Darling, I was an 8, not a 10. I'll be a 10 for a 10 for Sunday.
- [21:21]
A
Now, we do have to thank Elon Musk for the fact that we're talking today. There's only been a little bit of interference so far. So thank you to Starlink for providing the Internet connection for Tesla on the ship now. And you want to talk about all things America now, because of course, today, which is when most people will listen to this podcast, it is Independence Day in the United States. Fourth of July, always a big thing for Americans, less so for us. And of course, it's now the 250th anniversary of independence. How's Donald Trump celebrating that?
- [21:55]
B
Well, he actually had his eye on this celebration during his first term. There was something called America250, which was gearing up well in advance for a decade, planning sweet little things like essay contests for children, etc. And in comes Trump with his second term, and he basically hijacks America 250 with his renamed Freedom 250. And I think it's been an unmitigated disaster. It's become, if you like, a metaphor, hasn't it, what's been unfolding, especially in the National Mall in Washington, D.C. a metaphor for his swamp, like tenure in office. This, I don't, it's inescapably embarrassing. What's your take on what's happening?
- [22:43]
A
Well, to be honest, I haven't really followed it particularly closely. I, I, I, all I know is that they filled the ponds in the Washington Mall, which, if, I mean, let's explain to people who haven't been to Washington what that is. It's the, it's a sort of strip of grass that goes from the Lincoln Memorial right down to, well, Capitol Hill, I suppose, isn't it? Nearly. And along there, there's sort of, there's ponds and what, what's. He wanted to fill them with blue water, so he put paint in them. And it's just, it's been an absolute
- [23:20]
B
flop, particularly the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting pool. I just love the play on words around the reflecting pool. This kind of gargantuan narcissist looking into the water, trying to find some kind of symbol of his governance. He decided he was going to paint the bottom with American blue. And rather than pulling in contractors through the usual bidding process, he basically used cronyism and employed a team that weren't sufficiently vetted. And in they came, paint in the pool. A whole load of algae has subsequently bloomed. So that rather than American blue, you've got algae green, the paints all started peeling. He's blamed this on Vand every day now you see kind of dodgy men in flaxuits slurping up and down the pool with nets trying to pick out the detritus. And he spent incidentally on this pool and its renovation, his botched renovation over £14 million. It's extraordinary. And that's just one aspect of what's become sort of a bit of a fiasco. There was some cage fighting, there's a sort of trucker rally. It's called the Great American State Fair and it's meant to be going on for 16 days, but apparently it's very poorly attended. And it's a giant national raspberry. And the tragedy is, Ian, that this is about unifying a country. A national anniversary, we know that whether it's a Platinum Jubilee or a VE Day celebration and, and this has just doubled down on the division in America
- [25:01]
A
in some ways I think it was almost inevitable it would be a flop. Because if, if you make something about yourself rather than the country and that seems to me what Trump has tried to do, I mean, putting his face on, what was it, a 250 banknote or something. I mean, it's just crass, isn't it? And people see through that. And what he should have done is get the people involved. I mean, it would be ironic, wouldn't it, if he'd done this, but get people involved who organized the Queen's Diamond Jubilee and, and things like that, because they, they're used to doing it. And every time there was a Jubilee event or some massive event in, in this country, it all went off brilliantly, despite everyone predicting that it wouldn't.
- [25:43]
B
Therein we have the power of the constitutional monarchy, which of course America kicked off 250 years ago because if you have an apolitical figurehead, currently the King, previously the Queen, that allows people, when it's in its best and most functioning form, to coalesce around the personification of the, the state without bearing political colors. And America have never been able to separate their symbols of state, whether it's the White House, which of course he's taking a wrecking ball to, isn't he? Giant Ballroom, etc, or the Reflecting Pool or any of the other apparatus, Air Force One, etc. From the political mires of the President in power. And Trump has mores and some, well, he certainly does.
- [26:30]
A
So it is quite difficult when you have such a large country. I mean, how can it mean the same to a Californian? Than it does to someone from New York State. It, it's, it is a bit of a problem, isn't it? I mean, we have that problem here, but in a much smaller way. And how do you make it relevant to somebody in Northern Ireland or the Highlands of Scotland? How do they feel about it? The. The same as somebody in London or Canterbury?
- [26:58]
B
Well, of course, you have the great statement, the founding fathers all signed up to the idea of, you know, those truths, let's quote from it, that all men are created equal. We know that wasn't the case when they signed it, but it was an aspiration that they are endowed by their creator with certain Elaine. Ill inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The problem is, under Trump, it feels like so much of that statement has been corroded.
- [27:26]
A
Well, I think that that is, that is true, but I mean, in 1976, which was the last time they celebrated something like this, the 200th anniversary? I mean, I don't really remember much about that. I was what, 12, 13 at the time? But I think that was. That was considered quite successful. But it, it wasn't done on this kind of glitzy, sort of rather embarrassing scale, was it?
- [27:55]
B
Who was the present? Was it Jared Ford at that time?
- [28:00]
A
No, it was Jimmy Carter.
- [28:02]
B
Was it? Either way, I think it was.
- [28:03]
A
No, no, it was Gerald Ford. Yeah. Carter took over in 77. Yeah.
- [28:08]
B
So a very different style of president. What's fascinating about this particular week for Trump, it's not been auspicious in terms of his standing. His rating approval rating is down to 39. In America, the war goes on with Iran despite him desperately trying to claim victory. There's been some defamation case which he's lost against a woman, E. Jean Carroll. At the same time as all of that, Ian, he's declared the revenues that he made in 2025 three times more money for PLC Trump than the year before. Do you know the figure? Can I share it with you?
- [28:48]
A
Go on.
- [28:49]
B
2.2 billion pounds richer in 2025. Donald Trump.
- [28:57]
A
And your contention is that that's only happened because he's been president?
- [29:02]
B
Well, it's extraordinary and I think it's also interesting. There is a sort of allegory there. Allegory? There is the knot that on the one hand he's super rich, but what he most craves is, is praise, is recognition. And actually that very precious vase has smashed to the floor. And it's almost like you, you can't have both things. The majority of that money actually comes from a crypto company and investments through, I believe, the Arab Emirates. Also quite a lot from merch, Donald Trump tea towels and hats and so forth. And quite a lot of sort of legal cases that he's won or that other companies haven't been prepared to fight because he, because of who he is. So certainly he has enriched himself and his immediate family, his cronies, because of his position. I think there's no doubting that.
- [29:55]
A
Well, I don't know if you followed all the Nigel Farah stuff over the past couple of days, but his Register Members Interest was published yesterday or the day before yesterday. And we know, we know the money he gets from GB News, we know the money that he's had from Christopher Harbor. What we didn't know, however, was that he's, he's been paid by a gold bullion company. And when I say paid, I mean paid very handsomely. I don't know what your hourly rate is if you go and sort of do some consultation or something for a company, but I suspect it's less than 22 and a half thousand pounds and that's what he's been getting, and 270, 270,000 pounds from this company over a period of a few months. But you think, well, I mean, great, great for him, great money if you can get it. But I really laid into him. You'd have been proud of me last night because I'm always accused of being an apologist for Farage, because I like him and know him, but I thought, no, no, this is not on. Not because he's done anything intrinsically wrong, but how can you be a leader of a political party and have the time to do all of these things? I mean, not just GB News, but there's this, there's all his speaking that he does all over the world, various other consultancies. I mean, I had the whole, whole printout of his register of members interests and it was like literally 20 or 30 pages. Now, if you're a backbench MP, you can just about get away with that and still do your job properly. I would contend that he cannot do his job properly as leader of Reform UK and as aspirant Prime Minister. And therefore, I think this is part of the reason why the, the polish is coming off him at the moment, because I had the first three calls last night were from reform supporters who said that they, they weren't supporting reform anymore. Admittedly, two of them were going to restore uk, which was a bit of a disappointment, but they just said no. No, we, we can't do this. It's just, just not right. And they weren't. I mean, sometimes you get people calling in and you think, no, you're a Labor plant or you're a Tory plant. These were genuine people who were almost bereft of the fact that they felt let down.
- [32:19]
B
Well, it's interesting. And by all accounts, of course, Parliamentary committee is looking over this 5 million pound gift he received from his crypto body. Now, if he falls foul of their rules, interestingly, EU rules originally on gifts that parliamentarians can receive 12 months before they take office, etc, he will have to recontest his seat in Colchester. And there are those that are saying he might not have this Clacton, well, whatever, you know, somewhere in Essex, that he might not have the stomach for it.
- [32:50]
A
Well, there's, there's, there are increasing number of people who don't think that he actually even wants to be Prime Minister. Now, I don't really believe that, but I do think that he possibly has a bit of imposter syndrome about being Prime Minister, whether he thinks he would actually be up to the job. We know that he's not a well man, that he has had all sorts of consequences from that plane crash on election day in 2010, but he doesn't look well and people are starting to comment on that. And the fact that he does disappear from time to time, what people assume it's to do with his outside interests, I'm not so sure it is. So I think there's going to be a lot of speculation about that. And then of course, people think, well, if he wasn't leader of Reform UK in the run up to the election, how would that affect their popularity? Well, you look at the opinion polls, there's one out a couple of days ago showing that Reform are down to 24% and Tories and Labour are both at 20%. So it's only a four point gap now. That's easily bridgeable before the next election. Whereas they were looking unassailable when there was this 10, 12, 14 point gap.
- [34:01]
B
It's interesting because, and it's a question to which we'll never know the answer, but would we have Andy Burnham, putative new Prime Minister, if the tinsel had fallen off Farage just that little bit sooner?
- [34:20]
A
I think it was inevitable that Starmer would have gone at some point. I, I just don't think he was up to it in all sorts of different ways. So, and I, I didn't used to say that. I, I thought when people said on like around election day in 2024. Oh, of course he won't last the course. I mean, I poo pooed them. I said, well of course he would. He's got a majority of 400 and I don't think anybody could have foreseen anti Burnham sort of rise to prominence. So. Well, it's all, it's all very sad, isn't it?
- [34:53]
B
Well, actually I don't find, I don't find the fall of Farage that sad. I'm just going to be honest, Ian. I always thought they were a fly by night protest party. I always felt it was a kind of a protest. And in some ways by delivering Burnham, I think some of the voters feel they've been heard, they've kind of protested against this government.
- [35:11]
A
They didn't listen up to a point. But that there is still a, a big phenomenon of people thinking, well, I mean, I'm sorry, how dare he come just sort of come down from the north and I mean, they've got 400 MPS. Weren't any of them good enough to take over? And they've sort of got this guy. We don't really know much about him. We don't know what he believes about defense or foreign policy because there's actually absolutely no trace of any views that he's got on these things. And do we know that he'll actually be any different to Starmer? Because one of the reasons for getting rid of Starmer was because nobody knew what he believed either. So he taught us a good game. And he's the professional northerner and likes gravy. That's all we really know, isn't it?
- [35:51]
B
He wears a navy blue T shirt. Will we go to a break? Because I've got to squeeze a bit of history in, Ian.
- [35:56]
A
We will. Well, we've just done sort of American history a bit, haven't we? And we have got to do some questions and we have rabbit. We've actually been going for 40 minutes. Can you believe? Nearly.
- [36:07]
B
Bloody hell, Corey.
- [36:09]
A
So we, we, we will do some history and then we'll take some questions because I've got, I've got one or two corker questions. I'll tell you right now. Nobody's going to switch off. Right, let's go to a break. So let's go to the history part of the podcast. Over to you, Tessa Dunlop. You're actually going to talk about something that I, I know a little bit about for a change.
- [36:35]
B
Well, that's one of the reasons why I plumped for it because I thought you could interject, and it won't just be a Tessa monologue, because we know they don't go down well with the listeners.
- [36:44]
A
With some listeners, not all, but we can never please all of the people, all of the time.
- [36:49]
B
Okay, so it's 1812. This is a few decades after the Declaration of Independence, when America's not quite delivered on its pursuit of happiness, but it feels it's getting there, but it's still very frustrated about being in the shadow of the British Empire. What more broadly is going on globally in 1812? Ian, why might the Americans think this is a good time to launch a backdoor attack through Canada, which they covet, against the Brits?
- [37:20]
A
Because Britain was involved in the Napoleonic wars, and so it had its eye on wars in Europe rather than necessarily American. And I mean, we all know that the old maxim, you shouldn't fight a war on two fronts. Well, we were fighting wars on various
- [37:36]
B
fronts at that point, to quote Jefferson. Not a fan of Britain, it's got to be said. He said, providence has placed Britain's most defenseless possession at our door. And they were talking about Canada. We got a lot of our timber, of course, from Canada, food supplies from Canada. We depended on Canada in our fight against Napoleon in the Napoleonic Wars. There was an idea in 1812 that Napoleon was preponderant. We actually know that he wasn't.
- [38:08]
A
What does that mean?
- [38:10]
B
Leading. Winning.
- [38:11]
A
Right.
- [38:12]
B
You know, success.
- [38:13]
A
I've never heard of that word before.
- [38:14]
B
Well, there you are. That's a new word for you.
- [38:16]
A
Did you just make it up?
- [38:18]
B
No, I. You're a bugger. You really are a bugger. Preponderance. Thank you.
- [38:24]
A
I'm going to Google that because I don't think that's a word.
- [38:27]
B
You Google it while I continue intoning on other things that you can learn from. And so they decide they're going to go for it and they're going to smash Canada. There's a sort of set piece battle at Detroit when the Canadian militia give the Americans a kicking. Because actually we know that Napoleon's coming on Stark. We know we're going to give him his final bloody nose in 1815 when he, you know, makes an abortive attempt to re enter the war. But actually this is the death throes of the French. And of course the Americans have allied themselves with the French. So we have this victory in Detroit against America, courtesy of the Canadians. You've gone very quiet there. Are you discovering that I'm different when it comes to knowing?
- [39:08]
A
Well, no, you are. You are. Absolutely. I'm gonna have to admit defeat on this. Preponderant means having superior weight, influence or power, or being the most common or important element in a situation. So I would be the preponderant contributor to this podcast. That's what you're saying?
- [39:24]
B
No, only because for some reason, your mic has better quality, even though we both have the exact same.
- [39:29]
A
I know. You're sounding very good today.
- [39:31]
B
Am I? Well, when I get back to Britain, I'm going to really look into it, because it infuriates me.
- [39:35]
A
I think it's.
- [39:35]
B
Anyway, so we have a hugely successful battle against. Against America. To be honest, when America launched this war, Britain doesn't take it terribly seriously. It's like somebody once referred to it as the blue bottle stuck in the study. It's like, for God's sake, America, do you know what I mean? What do you think you're doing? And they are. There's a few naval skirmishes around the Great Lakes, but really, after the initial bloody nose we give them, there's no chance that America is going to take Canada or anywhere near it. But it drags on as war do. So we decide in 1814, we need to bring the Americans to the negotiating table. What do we do? How do we enter Washington? Ian, first of all, who enters Washington?
- [40:23]
A
Well, the redcoats enter Washington, presumably.
- [40:27]
B
Indeed, there. There's. They go down the Potomac river, which, of course.
- [40:32]
A
Potomac.
- [40:34]
B
I knew you'd correct me, thank you very much. Potomac. Pronunciation all wrong, as usual. River. And Cockburn is one of the leaders. And there's a kind of idea that what they need to do is not actually smash up the whole city, which is what was potentially on offer. They could have really crippled America. Some say that they could have reformed America. It could broken up America at this point, such was their power. But given that, for example, New England was very iffy about the war. The Quakers didn't really like the war when Madison put it. When it was put to the vote in Congress and Madison signed it off, it was one of the closest votes when it came to declarations of war. And it was also America's first declaration of war. So there was a feeling of clemency on the British side. Actually, we want to hold on to the people. We don't want to alienate the American people. So they set about, first of all, eating Madison's banquet that he had abandoned midway through in the White House before. They then burn the White House and other public buildings on the Capitol. And this does the business in 1814, it brings the Americans to the negotiating table, they send their ambassadors to London, and actually none of their war aims are granted. So it's a crushing defeat for America. But what's really interesting is, first of all, Britain, most Brits don't really know about this crushing defeat that Goliath Britain served on. David. America, because big countries don't really go to town on little skirmishes. We were focused on the Napoleonic wars and Waterloo, which was just a year away. Whereas America, when you ask them about this war, they cite the victories they snatched from the jaw of defeat, the battles that they won where they held out. And actually there's a fascinating siege of a Fort, Fort McHenry, in September 1814. It was in Baltimore, and there was an absolutely giant American flag fluttering throughout the siege. And eventually Britain withdraws. We don't manage to take this fort, but I think it's by this time, it's almost after the piece has been signed, but we withdraw. And it inspires poems and music. And in 1931, the song that inspired this extraordinary failed siege in Baltimore is set to Star Spangled Banner, which of course becomes the American anthem. So one of America's successful defenses in this otherwise rout of a war actually inspires their anthem, which was originally a British tune from a music hall in London.
- [43:31]
A
Oh, really? I didn't, I didn't know that. I love the American national anthem. I think it is probably the best one of any that I've heard. I think the, the other thing that we should remark on is the fact that, I mean, Washington D.C. had literally only just been built and it was obviously much smaller than it is today, so it was a very new city and I suppose relatively easy to conquer, in a way. And the, the, I mean, the number of depictions of the burning down of the White House, I mean, it is an intrinsic part of American history. So it's the thing that everybody knows about. And of course, when, when the British Prime Minister goes to state dinner at the White House, there's always sort of jokey remarks about it from, from both sides.
- [44:18]
B
But I don't think, Ian, that it's in our national conscience.
- [44:23]
A
No, absolutely not. Well, think I'm not. So I don't think it's very surprising in a way, though, if you think about the fact that it was the Napoleonic wars that were dominating everything at the time. I mean, I don't know what at the time, whether it sort of seeped into people's consciousness or not, but it's not a sort of key thing that we, we Talk about in our school books. You're absolutely right. I mean, it was all about the glories of empire rather than the. The bits of it that we actually lost. And I'm not sure we were trying to get it back. I mean, we weren't actually trying to reconquer America by doing this, were we?
- [44:59]
B
No, no. We were just putting them back in their box. You can't have Canada, guys, you know, remember your place in the pecking order. But the broader takeaway is small countries always remember their victories against the odds when fighting the Goliaths. And it's worth bearing in mind that we at that time were the Goliath. It's going to change wholesale nearly within 100 years, actually. America as the military giant really comes home to roost in the Second World War. And we know then subsequently that they've steered the world militarily throughout the latter part of the 20th century. But how quickly things change. I found it so fascinating to do a deep dive. And also that idea of America identifying itself as the lesser power that the little guy, the grit, if you like, in the oyster, there was another outstanding defeat, a victory they managed to inflict on Britain. Again, a very localized battle this time. Where was it? It was in New Orleans and it was after the piece had been signed in January 1815, and they killed something like 2, 000 Brits. The leader was a guy called Andrew Jackson. And that became the 8th of January, a federal holiday. So they get their national anthem and a federal holiday from these two anomalous victories in a war where they were comprehensively smashed. And it's interesting because it talks to the American psyche, that idea of struggle, that idea about succeeding against the odds, which is not the way in which we perceive America today. It seems bloated over rich, overconfident, very different.
- [46:38]
A
Right, let's finish up there and do some questions because we have quite a few to get through. So let's go to a break. Right, let's go to questions. I'm not sure this is a question, rather, but a comment on Twitter, actually, from Richard Barnard, who says, and this is in response to a tweet that I did about. Well, it actually was a tweet of the trail that you did for the last podcast while we were talking about climate change. And Richard says is that Tessa Dunlop, who had multiple European holidays last year, Spain and Romania, question mark. A single return flight from the UK to a popular holiday destination like, like Spain can easily contribute 0.3 whatever to 0.5, oh, tons of CO2 per person. So someone's having a go at you for your frequent flying.
- [47:36]
B
Well, they are. I'm quite right. Flying is a great conundrum. This year I'm on a cruise. I did actually look at the Queen Victoria, which is the name of our ship, and saw its giant funnels belching up into the sky yesterday and kind of had that sinking feeling thing. What climate change has done for me is it hasn't hugely reduced my global meanderings, it's just made me feel about them. So it's kind of detracted from the pleasure available from international pursuits. But this year we're going to France on a ferry, not only because of climate change, partly because I can't bear airports.
- [48:10]
A
Yeah, but you go to Romania about four times a year, don't you?
- [48:12]
B
Well, Romania is different because family there. Well, I know, but, but how else do you.
- [48:17]
A
Still flying?
- [48:18]
B
How else do you get your daughter to see her grandmother? I agree, I agree. But square that circle.
- [48:23]
A
Whereas I, on the other hand, will have flown, possibly.
- [48:27]
B
You went to America, Ian. You went to America, which is like three remaining flights back, back, back to back.
- [48:33]
A
I did go to America and I will be going to Ireland at the beginning of August, but that will be it.
- [48:39]
B
Well, you can get a boat to Ireland.
- [48:41]
A
Well, you can, yes, but I reckon, I mean, getting to Hollyhead. Getting to Hollyhead or Stran Ra is. Is not my idea of fun.
- [48:51]
B
Oh, God, you're such a southern idiot. Right, this is from Dan. And the Instagram is at where politics meets history. Dear Test and Ian enjoying the pod. He's created an Instagram account especially for it. He's been listening since about 30 episodes and he is writing about climate change. This is a topic, he says, where I agree with Ian. Oh, my God. I feel the media brackets, generally speaking, is only relating the negative aspects of climate change and tends to look away from the complete scientific truths. The climate is an extremely complex system and we are trying to predict it by relatively basic models restricted by the available technology and limited general knowledge. Yes, I believe we're in the infancy stages of understanding it. I couldn't disagree more.
- [49:43]
A
Well, clearly there are people who do agree with me, you know, and as I say, I mean, what, what I really didn't like, it's a result of the conversation that we had last week, are people who basically were accusing me of denying climate change. And I, I repeatedly said I wasn't denying it. I said, of course the climate change is changing. I said the, the, the, the debate is whether it's entirely due to humankind or whether it's in part due to humankind. And I completely accept that it must be in part due to humankind. But let's, let's not go down that road again.
- [50:20]
B
No, I just want to say one thing, though, that the speed at which it's happening means that it is about human interference. Because in the history of climate change, and yes, it's been extensive across millennia and ice ages is. It's never happened. This quickly, Ian. This quickly. Right, next question. Before we fall out from do you
- [50:42]
A
know, though, again, you won't remember this because it was about the time that you were born, but in the mid-1970s, no one was talking about the world heating up. They were talking about the very opposite. We feared a new ice age. And you see, I think that's why, that's. The people who lived through that period have a few doubts about this now because we were all convinced that we were going to have an ice age rather than the world heating up. So the scientists have very quickly changed their minds. Anyway.
- [51:14]
B
The science has changed very quickly. We know that the.
- [51:17]
A
Yeah, but it can easily change back as well.
- [51:20]
B
Can't it play? Well, sadly, no. They think that the impact of climate change will be irreversible for the foreseeable. Anyway, let's go to another unifying.
- [51:29]
A
Okay.
- [51:30]
B
Message.
- [51:30]
A
Right, here's one from Graham and it is that Graham, who used to berate Jackie and me for our smart on the. For the many and threatened to leave the podcast from time to time. Anyway, Graham has emailed this long time, no speaking, but still listening to the podcast with Tessa. Interesting, but sometimes challenging, but no smut. At least she is provocative, but good listening. Not been well recently. Oh, I don't know whether I should read all this out. But anyway, Graham is having a hard hop next week and we all wish him all the best for that. He says, I've been prompted to message you following the Sandy War pot on your All Talk podcast. She's so good and professional. Thank you for bringing her out of the shadows at last. Now, Sandy War, you probably don't know her, Tessa, but she's a news presenter, newsreader. She's been around for quite a long time and she, she, she actually taught Corey at City University and she presents shows on LBC News. So she's a real character and an absolutely brilliant news reader. And so I did her on my All Talk podcast this week. It was a really interesting conversation. Over to you.
- [52:40]
B
Okay, this is from Yilmaz. Wait a Sec bound to have said that wrong. But he knows that I know who he is. Just listen to your latest episode. Your discussion, coupled with the recent hysterical Save us from Red ed Daily Mail front page, has pushed me towards thinking that Barnum should make Miliband his Chancellor. I understand the right disagrees with his politics, but it feels like they view New Right Thatcherite ideas as the settled, unquestionable order of things. As if any Labour politician challenging the small state is the modern equivalent of Karl Marx. My question is how should the new PM get the treasury and markets to see borrowing for capital investment lowest in the G7 as a future investment? Thank you.
- [53:32]
A
Well, the idea that we live in a small state, I'm sorry, is for the birds, isn't it? I mean, when we're spending more money on welfare than we get in an income tax, I mean, that is the antithesis of small state. So that rather ruins the whole point of the question. I think it'd be very difficult for the markets to change the habits of a lifetime. I, I do accept though, that in this country we have had historically low investment in all sorts of different ways and I think it is a challenge to make us think long term rather than just over the short term. And governments have never done that. It's rather inevitable when, when you have a four or five year term as a government, all you're interested in is imposing policies to get in at the next election. I always thought that the French did it better than us, where they had elections every seven years, but then they changed back to five not that long ago, didn't they?
- [54:28]
B
And they've got vast public debt, their finances, absolute catastrophe. I'm not sure about, about borrowing for investment, but I've got to say, and I, I hold on to this and I know half of it was jettison and I know Andy Burnham's considering bringing it back. I was gutted when they binned half the HS2 project. They bought all the land that had been required. So that was just squandering public money. The plans that had been laid, some of the most difficult bits where it's getting rights to build rail had been conquered and then they just tore it up because the bill looked too big. And I think that might be something like that might be worth borrowing for if you get your return in, in the long term.
- [55:10]
A
I. I think if we were. If Covid hadn't happened. I think you're right. I think the business case for HS2 was very damaged by Covid when everybody started using what we're now using now Zoom, which we'd never heard of before. I, I, I'm not sure that, I mean, I thought it was absolutely crass for Rishi Sunak to announce it it actually in Manchester at the Conservative Party Conference. I mean, one of the worst political mistakes you could ever make or. You really want to piss off the Manx, do that. Will Andy Burnham put that back in? I think it's quite difficult now because I think they, I think they've, they've sold a lot of the land off, so I'm not, I'm not sure it's even possible to do, but we will.
- [55:52]
B
So they bought it, sold it and resold it again. It's just such.
- [55:55]
A
Yeah, I think so.
- [55:56]
B
Damn mess.
- [55:56]
A
Yes, and I think that that was a political decision where the government said to HS2 Limited, right, you, you need to sell this back so it can't be reversed if labor get into the next election. I think that's what happened. I may be doing someone a disservice there, but I think that is what happened.
- [56:14]
B
Do you know the one question you failed to ask me, Ian?
- [56:17]
A
What?
- [56:18]
B
Where am I?
- [56:19]
A
Yeah, where are you, Tessa Dunlop?
- [56:22]
B
I mean, Corfu.
- [56:24]
A
Oh, this time last year I was there.
- [56:28]
B
Well, there we are. But I got here with a slow boat and you got here with a very polluting aeroplane.
- [56:34]
A
Are you actually going to get off the boat and have a look around
- [56:36]
B
Corfu once I shake you off, which I'm going to do now? Shake.
- [56:42]
A
Right. Okay. Well, let's finish off the questions then. I've got a little bit of a quiz for you. Kate says someone told me a story about Lucy Powell being a prolific leaker from the Cabinet and they did a Colleen Rooney on her and that's why she was sacked by Starmer. There's a story of Liz Truss leaving Cabinet where they were told to stop the leaks and she was texting on her way out of the room. She was a prolific leaker. The question is, how is it allowed? Why? No official secrets. It's extraordinarily disloyal. Yet it happens. How and why would you leak if you were in the Cabinet? Historical angle. When did it start? Well, leaking has happened. I mean, you go back to Tudor times and the Tudor court will have leaked. And this is nothing new. It's just that communications are so much easier now. But also leaks are more traceable now for the very reason that you just said. I mean, if phones are confiscated, you can, you can see who, who a politician has been talking to. And of course, politicians make it their business when they first get elected. They befriend particular political journalists. And that relationship between a journalist and a politician is a fairly crucial one. So you develop those relationships over years. They have trusted relationships, you know that the journalist is never going to betray you if you do leak things to them. But you do have to be careful what you're leaking. I mean, national security things. I mean, that is just a big no, no. I hadn't heard that about Lucy Powell before, but that would explain why she was sacked because nobody could really understand it at the time.
- [58:20]
B
It's interesting, we know that people's reasons for leaking are, I think, invariably self interested. Look how in the wake of World War II, everyone was worried that it was the women that were going to bleach about Bletchley park and it ended up being Churchill shoving it all in his memoir because he wanted to be aggrandized for posterity. Well, no, but the, the point is that, you know, it's a dog on a lamppost. It's making your mark or it, you know, helping you up the greasy pole. My favorite recent leak was the, the Robert generic one when he was trying to leave the Conservative Party and someone blew his cover. I loved that. He must be gutted at the moment because he crossed the floor. Well, it's not the floor because they're all on the same side on the opposition benches and reform is tanking. He's such a disloyal little. I've got to say I take great delight in it. Soz. Do you know what I call people? I call it falling upwards. That's what they all do, these politicians, they fall upwards.
- [59:15]
A
Ian, I, I have bought some political memorabilia. Somebody died and their family wanted to get rid of it, so I bought it and I've only just. I bought it last year and I've only just started to unwrap it. And what I didn't know is that there's loads of, of little monkettes, little busts and statues, and I'm going to show you now, which obviously won't work if you're listening to the podcast rather than watching it, but look at that. Do you know who that is?
- [59:40]
B
Lloyd? Is that Lloyd George?
- [59:42]
A
Yeah, Lloyd George.
- [59:43]
B
Very, very good.
- [59:44]
A
But what I've got to try and do is work out how much these things are worth because now this one is slightly more challenging for you.
- [59:52]
B
Gladstone, is it?
- [59:54]
A
Well, I'm, I'm not sure. I think it might be Palmerston.
- [59:57]
B
Does it not have his name stamped on his bottom?
- [60:00]
A
Well, it doesn't. Which is. I mean, I'd recognize the face, so I will be able to identify it, but I. I think that might be Palmerston. This one, I think is fabulous. You probably won't get this.
- [60:12]
B
I don't know that one.
- [60:13]
A
Another Liberal prime minister from the 1890s.
- [60:18]
B
Souls? No, don't know. Who is it? Tell me.
- [60:21]
A
Earl of Rosebud. He's an interesting character, actually.
- [60:25]
B
He's fascinated to be homosexual, but also quite a reluctant Prime Minister. Am I right? We should do a deep dive into Rosebury.
- [60:33]
A
He was a brilliant Foreign Secretary, but it's an utterly useless prime minister.
- [60:38]
B
Okay, so more on him at another time. They look like plaster of Paris models. Like you need to paint them.
- [60:45]
A
They're not plaster of Paris. They are a particular material, but I can't remember what it's called. It was a word I'd never heard of before. But I'm looking forward to unwrapping the rest of them. Right, you go and enjoy the rest of your cruise. We won't see you again until this time next week, but it's been a pleasure and we will have Natasha Clark in your hot seat on Monday, recording for Tuesday and see everyone then. So do send in questions if you've got particular political questions for Natasha Clark, maybe relate them to history. I'm sure her historical knowledge will be up to it. Where Politics meets history@global.com and do also leave questions on the Instagram feed. Are you going to say goodbye?
- [61:27]
B
Yeah. Goodbye. So I was waving. It was rather ineffective.
- [61:30]
A
Waving doesn't really work on a podcast, does it?
- [61:32]
B
Goodbye. Love you.
- [61:36]
A
This has been a global production.