141. A Binface in the Crowd

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Where Politics Meets History"

Episode 141: "A Binface in the Crowd"

Date: July 10, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale (A), Dr Tessa Dunlop (B)

Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Iain and Tessa tackle the week’s biggest news stories through historical and personal lenses. With their trademark wit and occasional good-natured bickering, they discuss Nigel Farage’s by-election bombshell, Prince Harry’s rough week in court, the political implications of historical and present borders (from Trieste to Northern Ireland), the enduring British-Scottish rivalry, and the pardon of Ruth Ellis. Alongside their analysis, expect digressions into cruise ship book sales, Bonnie Tyler, and the personal lives of the hosts.

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Key Themes & Discussions

1. International Borders, Brexit & Historical Parallels

([04:12]–[08:41])

• Trieste’s Contested Past:
  • Tessa shares her impressions from a cruise ending in Trieste, discussing the city’s Austro-Hungarian heritage and how its shifting borders were shaped by 20th-century wars.
  • She draws a parallel to the post-EU accession transformation of border regions like Trieste/Slovenia:

    "The open border that the EU has delivered when Slovenia joined in 2007... is the absolute reverse of the clusterfuck that we've gifted Northern Ireland." ([06:38])

• Brexit and Violence in Northern Ireland:
  • Tessa asserts Brexit re-intensified tensions at the Irish border:

    "We've seen increased violence in the province." ([07:17])

  • Iain disputes a direct link, asking listeners from Northern Ireland to weigh in:

    "I don't believe that there's been any... increase in violence compared to what there had been in previous years." ([08:41])

2. Scottish and English Identities in Sport & Politics

([11:01]–[16:46])

• Wimbledon, Football, and the British Brand:
  • Debate on English sporting triumphalism and Scottish resentment.
  • Tessa on Scottish identity:

    "Andy Murray quickly learned which side his bread is buttered. He's Scottish to the core, but... for the big sponsorship deals he had to play softball to the English." ([11:36])

  • Iain:

    "I would always support... Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland or the Republic of Ireland... It's so easy to be magnanimous from a position of power." ([15:02], [16:02])

  • Discussion of the 1707 Act of Union’s financial roots and contemporary consequences in sport and culture.

3. Nigel Farage’s By-Election Gambit & Political Scandal

([17:15]–[29:11])

• Farage's Surprise By-Election:
  • Immediate reaction compares it to David Davis’s 2008 resignation:

    "What he's done... is effectively repeating what David Davis did... I was really angry because he hadn't told me, so I felt he'd hung me out to dry." – Iain ([19:27])

  • Farage’s motivations questioned:

    "It smacked of a heart decision versus a head decision." – Iain ([04:04], [20:47])

• Sleaze and "Hoisted by His Own Petard":
  • Tessa reads Farage’s 2013 op-ed criticizing sleaze ([21:55])
  • Both hosts note the irony of Farage’s current cryptocurrency donations scandal ([22:36]–[24:49]):

    "Perception is more important than reality." – Iain ([24:49])

• Consequences for Reform UK and Political Support:
  • Iain sees potential voter alienation:

    "All of her friends are really pissed off about this... Now he wants to be an MP again." ([26:04])

  • Tessa frames Farage as less comfortable being the establishment, more as an "outsider" ([27:10])

4. Press Ethics & Prince Harry’s Legal Setbacks

([33:14]–[36:52])

• Harry’s Case Against the Mail:
  • Tessa discusses testifying journalists, reputation damage, and the bar for legal proof:

    "The only consistent winner has been Harry's lawyer, as far as I can work out." ([34:36])

  • Iain:

    "Lawyers are always, yeah, they're always the winners." ([34:53])

• Media Morality vs. Law:
  • Tessa:

    "The law is the law, and it's very separate from the moral barometer of where right and wrong sit." ([35:38])

  • Both reflect on personal press mistreatment and the futility of lawsuits.

5. The Ruth Ellis Pardon, the Death Penalty, and Crime Through History

([40:18]–[48:03])

• David Lammy’s Posthumous Pardon:
  • Tessa explains Lammy’s move to commute Ruth Ellis’s sentence as symbolic recognition of injustice.
• Debate on Death Penalty:
  • Both hosts articulate the "head vs. heart" conflict:

    "We all in our hearts would like to see that man dead. But do we really want to live in a country where we exact revenge in that way? ... We're not living in the 1500s." – Iain ([42:39])

  • Tessa notes shifting legal standards, particularly in cases with coercive control:

    "It's not just about proof, it's about the lens through which we judge... what are perceived today to be crimes, but tomorrow might no longer be crimes." ([45:50])

6. Listener Questions & Final Flourishes

([49:26]–[53:37])

• Number 10 North and Regional Inequality:
  • Debate over Andy Burnham’s proposal to "decentralize" the Prime Minister’s office to Manchester:

    "Why is the northwest getting such special treatment when there are more deprived parts...?" ([50:38])

• Correction on Schengen:
  • Tessa admits a factual error about UK participation in Schengen, reading a correction from a listener ([53:23])

Notable Offbeat Moments

• Book Plugs & Banter:
  • Repeated references to Iain’s new book and his “shameless” plugging ([02:16], [53:56])
• Playing Cards Gift:
  • Tessa gives Iain a deck of "sexy Greek lovers" playing cards ([09:59])
• Bonnie Tyler Anecdotes:
  • Iain recounts meeting Bonnie Tyler and reminisces about her career ([30:33]–[31:32])
• "Mediocre Men" Rant:
  • Tessa:

    "I think I slumped into a bit of a depression earlier this year just because I was surrounded by so many mediocre men. Don't cut that bit, Corey." ([40:18])

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On EU borders vs. Northern Ireland:
  • "It's the absolute reverse of the clusterfuck that we’ve gifted Northern Ireland." – Tessa ([06:38])
• On Farage's by-election:
  • "It smacked of a heart decision versus a head decision." – Iain ([20:47])
• On political hypocrisy:
  • "He’s been hoisted by his own Petardian... in my opinion." – Tessa ([22:39])
• On legal battles:
  • "The only consistent winner has been Harry's lawyer, as far as I can work out." – Tessa ([34:36])
• On the death penalty:
  • "We live in a liberal, modern civilized society... We're not living in the 1500s." – Iain ([42:39])
• Meta-podcast moment:
  • "Ian, you're a shameless whore." – Tessa ([54:02])

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Conclusion

This episode, packed with humor and sharp historical perspectives, gave listeners both context for the present political moment and a reminder that the dramas of today are rarely new. Through their exchanges about borders and Brexit, Farage and political scandal, media ethics, crime and punishment, and the ongoing English-Scottish dynamic, Iain and Tessa showcase why history is indispensable to understanding politics—and why a good debate (and the odd tangent) never gets old.

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For More

• Nigel Farage, Prince Harry, and political history recur throughout.
• Listener emails close the show, correcting the hosts and offering regional perspectives.
• Don’t miss the recurring book plugs and Tessa’s pointed, playful jabs.

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(For episode reference, all timestamps in MM:SS format.)

Transcript

[A]

This is a global production.

[B]

To me, it smacked of a heart decision versus a head decision. Now, whether they did war game this, and maybe they came to the conclusion that the other parties wouldn't stand, but that would be to their advantage, I don't know. But I think it's a decision he will come to regret. Not necessarily because Count Binface will beat him, although I do think that is a possibility.

[A]

He's advertising some merch today. Count Binface.

[B]

Well, I'm sure. I'm sure he is. She's back. She's cruised. And I was going to say that she's in that sort of post holiday mellow mood, but I'd be lying, wouldn't I?

[A]

You would be lying. I mean, it's been full throttle since I got back.

[B]

Well, I've been here, what, 25 minutes now and you've been talking 10 to the dozen. I couldn't get a word in edgeways.

[A]

Well, we had an interjection from Rachel Johnson.

[B]

We did.

[A]

Two things are now overlapping in my life with Rachel Johnson. Johnson, otherwise known as the sister of Boris Johnson, but don't ever say that to her. And I said, there's two things we've got in common. One is she went and hold it to Romania and was wearing a Romanian ea. Some embroidery shirt. So first of all, I tried to get a picture of that, but she didn't really want to do a picture, which is weird because she's not normally camera shy. Then she told us an anecdote about a see through dress that she wore in the Royal Box. I realized she was talking about Wimbledon. I've got a great story about Wimbledon for you. She was sitting next to Philippa Middleton. I mean, I know she doesn't like being the sister of Boris Johnson, but do we think she'd have got in the Royal Box next to Philippa Middleton had she not been. And I was like, well, at least you get from having a political brother. Whereas I've got a political brother up in bloody Scotland and all he does is mansplain at me. So I've turned my phone off. How are you, Ian? Good to see you.

[B]

Talking of your little brother and Dunbar, where your little brother lives along with your mother, but not together, I don't

[A]

think, 300 steps apart.

[B]

I had an order for my autobiography from Dunbar and I did wonder if it was from one of them, but the name didn't match. So that gave me a little thrill.

[A]

To use a Scottish expression, both of them are tight as funks cuddy, which means very Mean. And they wouldn't possibly have bought your autobiography. They'd expect me to get one for them for free.

[B]

Oh, would they now? Yes. Have you had this where people just expect you to give them the book for free?

[A]

Oh, gosh, Corey, we're one minute into the pod and Ian has somehow inveigled the subject of his book into.

[B]

Seriously, you've done enough books. Yeah, I mean, it's embarrassing. Why? You said, well, no, you can buy

[A]

it, but just to be frank, everybody, a book. Once you're a writer, you get a box of books for free at the very beginning, 12 books. And then you have to buy them from the publisher, half price. I took a suitcase of books. I think I told you this in the pod.

[B]

I can't believe you did that.

[A]

I took a suitcase of books with me onto the ship, onto the cruise. Right. And both my husband and daughter laughed at me. They said, you look like a street haggler. And they said, do the. Do the return on that. Tessa, you're lumping a whole suitcase of books. I told you this in the last part, I'm sure. And then Canard, take a 20 off the sale price so you don't really make money.

[B]

So did they take the money?

[A]

They take the money, then they give you back some of the money. But I've already paid for the books. I didn't work it out. I think I made about 50 pounds. Story of my life.

[B]

But normally cruise ships, they. They order the books from the publisher because I remember when I was a bike back, we used to do that.

[A]

Anyway, I think we're now getting into the weeds of something that's really not. Anyway, broader importance. Let's talk about what we're going to talk about.

[B]

Let's finish the book. Plug first in, just.

[A]

Corey, cut this. I seriously mean. I seriously mean it, Corey. This is the turn off. I mean, it's rare that I consider myself a turn off.

[B]

I mean, you didn't plug your book at all when it came out, did you?

[A]

I did, but I just think we've got a lot to get through this. Farage Harry.

[B]

But it's out next Wednesday, so people want to know that they will also be able to buy the audiobook because that's been uploaded now, so hopefully that'll be available next Wednesday.

[A]

You know, if you've got a really good podcast editor, they can clip a bit from the beginning of the podcast, stick it at the end.

[B]

We have got a really good podcast.

[A]

He can stick this bit at the end.

[B]

No, he can't. Anyway, we were talking about your cruise, which you have returned from refreshed, reinvigorated and very annoying.

[A]

Yeah. Do you know, I've got new thoughts on the eu. I left the boat. Never to be called a boat, must be called a ship in Trieste. Now, what do you know about Trieste?

[B]

It's actually called Trieste in English.

[A]

No, you'll think you'll find there's an E on the end. That's a hard pronunciation.

[B]

No, but that is how it's pronounced in English. I'm sure whatever language that was supposed to be, that's what it is in that language. But in English, it's Trieste. And it used to be part of Italy.

[A]

It still is part of Italy.

[B]

I thought it was in Yugoslavia.

[A]

You're mansplaining me, and I love mansplaining. I'm not mansplaining how to say words. I'm over it. It's Trieste if you talk to any Italian. Okay, okay.

[B]

It used to be in a different country, didn't it?

[A]

It was in the Austro Hungarian Empire. The architecture's extraordinary. It was contested. It's the reason why Italy went to war in. In the Great War, in the First World War. There's a really interesting thing there where I think a lot of us in the sort of twenties were like, oh, why did we fight that?

[B]

World War I?

[A]

It killed, like, nearly a million men, and it was, like, really dark, and we couldn't really see the point of it because, you know, we got a bit of land, Palestine and Iraq and bits of that that we really didn't want in our empire. But for countries like Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, this was an existential fight to either see your border shrink or to see them grow. And Italy sits as a neutral. So does Romania, incidentally, and desperate for them to come in on our side in the war, and eventually Italy goes, all right, well, if you give me Trieste and Treol and all these bits on the map that they want to color in Italian, and we say, all right, you can have all that you want, and we do the same with Romania. And then, of course, you win the war and you're like, oh, we've now got to follow through. That's going to put the cat among the pigeons. And it really did. And there was a horrible, you know, then chickens come home to roost. With Tito's Yugoslavia, Second World War, it all falls apart. There's a sort of London memorandum where they draw a hard border baked basically at the back of the city, so the hinterland becomes Yugoslavia. Have I Lost you already. This is the history bit that I never get a chance to talk about. Guys. This is the bit Ian just is

[B]

thinking Farage and Smart gets a chance.

[A]

Right. Anyway, this is where I'm getting to the EU, because do you know what,

[B]

since 2007, Corey, do you think that AI could work out what percentage of the podcast Tessa talks and what percentage that I talk? I'm sure it could. I put the idea in his head now and he's going to do it, right?

[A]

Yeah, but it's not about the amount I talk, it's about the amount I'm allowed to talk about what I want to talk about.

[B]

You always talk about what you want to talk about.

[A]

Anyway, back to Trieste. So it's contested between what was Yugoslavia, is today Yugoslavia and Italy. And, you know, it's transformed relations in that city and in that region. The open border that the EU has delivered when Slovenia joined in 2007. It is the absolute reverse of the clusterfuck that we've gifted Northern Ireland. Yeah. Got it off my chest.

[B]

How is.

[A]

I got Brexit in, just as a retaliation for the book mentioned.

[B]

How is Northern. The Northern Irish border? I mean, are you talking about because of Brexit?

[A]

We've seen increased violence in the province.

[B]

No, that's nothing.

[A]

But it is.

[B]

No, it isn't.

[A]

But. But actually, Ian, the tensions have been ratcheted up. There was all about the contested refugee. Where did he come from? How do you manage the border, etc.

[B]

That's nothing to do with the border. I mean, you can say that the border, set in 1922, increased tensions. I mean, you can make an argument that that has. But actually, given all the palaver over the border, doing all the Brexit negotiations, I think actually it's been quite peaceful since then. I mean, it's actually no different really, to what it was before, because there were. There was the odd Flashpoint in the 2000s and going up to Brexit in Northern Ireland, and I suppose there probably always will be.

[A]

The interesting. Just a week after Brexit, I was filming for coast in Northern Ireland, and a couple of Unionists were in a fishing boat and they both looked at me and they said, ever since the Brexit vote last week, we've both been thinking, what have we done? And I think, let's wait and see. But I don't think there is no correlation between the increased violence that we've seen in Northern Ireland, not just singularly this year, but last year as well, and. And Brexit and The changed relations, it's like stirring up the settlement that we didn't.

[B]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, but I don't believe that there's been any, from what I've seen, any increase in violence compared to what there had been in previous years. I mean, the five years, was it now six years since. Since Brexit. But we've got listeners in Northern Ireland, we've got listeners in the Republic. Send us an email.

[A]

We're politics is the handle on Instagram. It is nice to see you, even though you infuriate me.

[B]

Sorry, ladies, you don't me.

[A]

I've got one other thing to mention.

[B]

We should think we should thank Natasha, shouldn't we? I bought her, Stepping into your shoes,

[A]

a bottle of Italian wine.

[B]

She had a very good reaction.

[A]

She did. Although they said that the fluff was too long. Couple of listeners. Were you talking sexy?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay, that's a relief. I didn't bring you wine because you don't drink, so that saved me. No.

[B]

Do you want to explain to the listeners what you did buy me?

[A]

Oh, yes. I don't want the fluff to go on too long, but basically after that barbecue and there was another complaint about talking about that too long, Ian. And I think this is. Well, I. I think it's a sign of a lack of civility within your household and I like John very much and he had huge numbers of books, but there's. There's a sort of bit of the philistine in you because you don't have a proper pack of playing cards. It's extraordinary. How could I play?

[B]

I have dozens of them downstairs.

[A]

Murder in the Dark or Wink Murder without the Black King and the Red Jack. Basically, Ian had some ridiculous pack of political playing cards. So I added to the ridiculousness by giving you a pack of playing cards with sexy Greek lovers on it.

[B]

But very inappropriate and final bit of

[A]

fluff, because I know everyone's very tail up in England, not just the football, but also Wimbledon and the Murdoch press, you know, always has to put a positive spin on everything British. And they were asking, I mean, perish

[B]

the thought that we should ever say anything positive about our own country.

[A]

No, but they even framed this heat wave as positive. And I was like, no, I'm not. I couldn't give them that. And then she said, oh, we just want something optimistic from you, Tessa. And I was like, I find the heat wave terrifying. Anyway, we somehow got onto the safer terrain of Wimbledon and I said, oh, yeah, that Arthur Frey and she went, it's very like this. I was like, oh, I've exported my verbal clumsy.

[B]

Isn't he basically French?

[A]

Shh. He was born in Wimbledon.

[B]

All right. Okay. I mean he speaks very. I mean he is English in terms of the way he speaks and looks and all the rest is very good looking young man. But. But I'm sure there is some French parentage there or something. Why can't we produce players who are actually English?

[A]

I can't believe you said that.

[B]

We had Andy Murray, who of course was British when he won and Scottish when he lost. And we had Greg Rosetsky, who played for England in the Davis cup but was Canadian.

[A]

I can't believe you're contesting the Britishness of Andy Murray just because he came from north of the border. They play under the British ticket.

[B]

I'm not contending it, but the press did.

[A]

But the interesting thing is Andy Murray quickly learned which side is bred, is buttered because he's Scottish to the core. But he realized for the big sponsorship deals he had to. To play softball to the English. And it goes Back to the 1707 Union bought and sold for English gold. That's what the Scots are every time.

[B]

Yeah, but. But the thing is, what I was. I was reading something about this the other day. I can't remember where it was. I think it might be in an Instagram reel where they. They had quite a long sort of explanation.

[A]

Not yet. That favorite source of yours.

[B]

Exactly. And. And it was going on about. Somebody had said that they. The Scots had been colonized by the English. And whoever this historian was who was writing this piece is saying that' what happened? This was a voluntary union between Scotland and England. And I mean, Scotland was basically on its financial uppers, wasn't it? And that was the main reason, I think more.

[A]

More crucially was England were going to retaliate if we did. If Scotland wasn't gifted the. Or didn't agree to the political union and we were going to insist that there was a sort of hard border, they'd be considered aliens and that would be hugely disadvantaged.

[B]

But the reason it came about in the first place, wasn't it because there'd been some sort of financial thing in South America that the. All the banks in Scotland were going to go if they weren't bailed out by England? I mean, that's a. Yeah, I'm sure that's completely wrong, but it's a.

[A]

And then. And also England was hugely emboldened in the wake of the Battle of Blenheim. And Duke of Marlborough's success on the continent. But the bottom line is Scotland recognized if they wanted to build an empire overseas, they had to do it in lockstep with England. And the British brand is a brand built overseas.

[B]

Do you. I mean, as somebody who is Scottish but presents as English. So I feel upset when you see these interviews with Scottish football fans who. Now they were all supporting Mexico, now they're all going to support Norway just because they're playing England. I mean, does that not make you slightly uncomfortable?

[A]

Can we come to this after the break so I can have time to think about it?

[B]

Okay, so in a moment we're going to talk about, well, the political events of this week. Nigel Farage, I mean, his. Or was it a bombshell? I suppose it was a bit. I'm sure we both got lots of views on that. We're going to talk about the week that Prince Harry has had. It hasn't been a good week for the princelet.

[A]

Why is he a prince? Let now. Why have you diminished him like that?

[B]

Because I like to.

[A]

Can we move on? I wanted to talk about Ruth Ellis

[B]

and we can talk about Ruth Ellis as well. So let's do that and then we'll talk a little bit about the football at the end.

[A]

I'm not sure we've got time for all of that in.

[B]

Well, we'll try. If you hadn't rapidly on so much in this quarter, we would have done.

[A]

I was swallowing, said the tart to

[B]

the vicar, Tessa Dunlop. Honestly, whenever I make a slight double entendre, you have a go at me. And that was a full size one.

[A]

I was caught short with Corey opening the microphones. So basically I feel conflicted about Scotland and England and the. I think it's the English triumphalism. And I go back to this and we've talked a lot about this because

[B]

if you win a football match in the World cup, you're going to be triumphalist.

[A]

Yeah. I think the problem is the disproportionate voice that England has in the. The. The public discourse arena because of the size of England relative to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. And also they're much more likely to win because you're far, far, far, far bigger. You're not 10 times bigger than Scotland.

[B]

I'm assuming you didn't watch England. Mexico.

[A]

Well, it was early in the morning and I was flying the next morning, but I caught up on the highlights. And a bit of me thinks okay. And a bit of me thinks okay. And a bit of me remembers that My daughter says who does French A level and is. Goes across quite a lot to France for. For subjects and that. Look, Mum, just remember, you want England to win over the French. Ultimately, anything is better than France winning the World Cup. So I'm kind of behind her there.

[B]

I like her. No, I just. I. It doesn't bother me that you see all of these Scottish fans.

[A]

It's a bit. I agree. That's unattractive. I'd never do that.

[B]

It diminishes Scotland, I think, when. When you have views like that, it looks chippy.

[A]

That's.

[B]

I would always support. Whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland or indeed the Republic of Ireland. I always support them when they're playing another team.

[A]

It's so easy to be magnanimous from a position of power.

[B]

No, but England has always been. I mean, they won the World cup when I was three years old. They've always flattered to deceive in World Cups. This one, for the first time in my life, I genuinely believe that we can win.

[A]

Yeah. Every time English fans say that, but I think it's worth bearing in mind you're working against different metrics. England almost always get through to a quarter or a semi final. Sometimes they even get through to a final. Whereas Scotland, if they'd broken out the group stages, that would have been something else. If Wales, you know, even qualify. So it's not comparing like with like. And I just think sometimes the. The narrative and sometimes it can be tone deaf. People refer to Britain as England and make say that.

[B]

But Cape Verde got into the round of 32, which Scotland didn't, and 150,000 people on Cape Verde.

[A]

I know, but.

[B]

So anyway, that's not going to negotiate yourself. Let's get on to. I'm not. Doesn't bother being about ingratiating myself, although I'm obviously going to Edinburgh next month. Oh, right. Moving on to Farage second slash events. Right. So Nigel Farage announced on. What was it? Tuesday, wasn't it?

[A]

Same time as Harry's High Court announcement.

[B]

I don't think that could have been deliberate.

[A]

Well, everyone knew the Harry thing came

[B]

a bit later, actually, but it was scheduled for two.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so when. When we heard about an hour and a half before that Farage was going to make a statement about his future in public life. All sorts of rumors were going around and I'd sort of. I'd come up with this because, I mean, it has been rumored that he's been quite ill. So I thought, well, maybe it's something to do with that and that he's had to have lots of medical treatment.

[A]

You said to me you thought he'd give up.

[B]

Well, I thought that, well it was a possibility. And then I thought, well maybe that's what the 5 million was for, to pay for expensive medical treatment. So I was coming up with all these sort of far fetched things, but then so was everybody else because we didn't know. Nobody came up with calling a by election. And what he's done by calling this by election is effectively repeating what David Davis did. Do you remember that in 2008, just to introduce a little bit of recent political history, he resigned his seat in East Yorkshire to protest at the Brown government's civil liberties policies. It was mainly about being detained for 42 days without trial or charge. And I mean at that point I was kind of seen as his vicar on earth. And I remember getting a call from Kevin Bell, who sadly died last year, a really lovely guy, PR consultant. And he said, has David spoken to you this morning? And I said no. He said, well you should ring him. So I rang him, no reply. And then the news broke on the news channel that he was resigning its seat and resigning from Cameron. Shadow Cabinet pardon.

[A]

Did he win?

[B]

Yes he did because none of the other party stood. So it became a complete damp scribe of a by election. But if David was sitting here now, he would still say he did the right thing because he gave attention to the issue. Well, the issue was getting a lot of attention anyway, largely due to him and I. So I was called up by all the different media saying, oh, can you come on and talk about it? So I did all of these interviews, really not quite knowing what to say because I didn't agree with what he'd done. In fact, I was really angry.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Well, because he hadn't told me, so I felt it hung me out to dry.

[A]

Pulled the rug from beneath your feet.

[B]

So about four o' clock he rings me up, oh, he's been doing brilliant work on the media. I said, yeah, no thanks to you. You maybe I didn't quite say that, but anyway, so he then explained why he did he did it and I sort of, sort of understood it. But everybody that was sort of being part of his 2005 leadership campaign team, we all thought he had gone mad for doing it. Now, Nigel Farage, he must have known

[A]

about the David Davis case and the potential for everyone to pull out of the race.

[B]

Well of course David Davis apparently has rung Nigel and just said, haha, copycat.

[A]

But so in Other words, what's happening up against Count Bin Face? Farage will have looked at that as a possible outcome and stared it in the face, one presumes.

[B]

It depends if you think that this has been in the offing for a long time. It had all the hallmarks to me of a very sudden announcement. Farage has, was very angry at Sky News for going up to his daughter's house. Now, whether they. Well, you, you, you poo. Poo that. I do poo that. I knew you would. But the fact is he was very angry about that because he's rattled generally.

[A]

He's angry at the full stop. He feels exposed and he's not used to being on the back of it.

[B]

I think that is true for all sorts of different reasons. And the fact that he hasn't done a press conference since April, the fact that any interview that he has done has been dominated by the 5 million, the Sunday Times article about this George Cottrell and then the register of members interests about the 22 and a half thousand pounds an hour, etc. Etc. So yes, I, to me it smacked of a heart decision versus a head decision. Now whether they did war game this and maybe they came to the conclusion that the other parties wouldn't stand, but that would be to their advantage, I don't know. But I think it's a. I think it's a decision he will come to regret. Not necessarily because Count Bin Face will beat him, although I do think that is a possibility.

[A]

He's advertising some merch today. Count Bin Face, you can buy a T shirt.

[B]

I'm sure he is and he's going to donate. I said to Andrew Marr yesterday, I said, so last Wednesday you had the future Prime Minister on your program and today you've had Count Bin Face. I mean the Maher program is really plumbing the deaths, which he did laugh at.

[A]

I want to read you an article written.

[B]

Really? An article?

[A]

Yeah, just the first few lines of an article written in 2013 and I want you to guess who wrote it. It was published in The Guardian. Okay. 2013. The news that a Conservative MP and three Lords have been stung in cash for questions investigations is the latest allegation of dodgy dealings in British politics. It has shown us that Westminster has come on little since the Tory sleaze of the John Major years. And it makes us ask fundamental questions to whether our political system can ever be clear of closed room deals where legislators take backhanders. Would you like to guess who wrote the article?

[B]

Well, I imagine it was Nigel Farage otherwise she wouldn't have been reading it out.

[A]

It was Nigel in the Guardian, no less, who published that article. He's been hoisted by his own Petardian and he's been caught in the act. In my opinion, it looks like strongly stacking up to be a heavy buffer to encourage Farage to get in there and dig for his cryptocurrency pal. Because I was looking, looking at what he's done subsequently to help the cryptocurrency case, as it were, to support the case. You keep talking while I find the case.

[B]

I mean, I talked about this a couple of months ago, where he was on the Nick Ferrari show in September last year, talking about cryptocurrency and advocating it in quite a big way now, which is fine. I mean, any politician is free to do that. If you want the government to change the law, why wouldn't you? But not when you've been paid £5 million by a cryptocurrency multimillionaire after the general election.

[A]

I want to tell you.

[B]

That was after the election.

[A]

Yeah, but I want to. I've got the list. The Reform Party included a pledge to lower the capital gains rate for crypto assets from 24% today to 10% to create a national bitcoin reserve at the bank of England to stockpile crypto assets. The party also took the unusual step of publishing a draft Crypto Assets and Digital Finance bill, setting out exactly how it planned to deregulate the sector. Do you want me to go on?

[B]

Well, I can go on as well, because he also, in September last year with Richard Tice, went to see the governor of the bank of England, urging him to do exactly what you've just said. Now, again, in normal times, absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you're a leader of a political party, of course, you go and see the governor of the bank of England from time to time and you say what you think he should be doing or what your party wants to do. But because there's been this donation, I mean, even if the donation. And you're going to laugh at this, but even if the donation had absolutely no connection to the Reform Party policy, it would still not pass the sniff test. And in today's politics, in today's media, perception is more important than reality.

[A]

What is interesting and historically, you can go. And I'm always really wary of using anything analogous with the Second World War, Nazi Germany or indeed Adolf Hitler. But he spent time in prison and it emboldened him. After the Munich perch, we see Donald Trump convicted Felon. He then goes on and enters the White House. There is something about the hard right and I place Nigel Farage into that category and the way in which they can spin a judgment against them as being somehow an anti establishment.

[B]

But the thing here, and this is what confuses me, there hasn't been a judgment and the Parliamentary Standards Commission, they're

[A]

going to find against it.

[B]

Well, that's what he's assuming. Yeah, that's what I'm assuming. Because I, I think if you look at all of this in the round, it's quite clear what the rule is. And I think he has broken the rule in terms of not declaring it after he became an mp, even though I think all of the money came, or at least most of it before he became an mp. So I mean, so okay, so he's preempting this, but that, but if he wins the by election, the committee reports

[A]

and then he'll have to contest the Clacton again.

[B]

Well, you see, the only logic to doing it now is to say, well, of course if they did try and do a recall petition, they wouldn't get the 10% of voters because they'd all be fed up having already had one by election. I think that is taking. If that was the reason, I don't know that it is. But if that was the reason, that's taking the voters for granted. And there is a possibility. You know, I interviewed somebody last night on my show, somebody who called in and she lived, I think within the constituency or if not just outside. And she said all of her friends are really pissed off about this because even though they might have voted for Farage in the general election and even if they think he's been a reasonable mp, they think that, well, why would he do this? He's already an MP and now he wants to be an MP again. So you might get a big stay at home vote, which is what happened in David Davis seat. He did get 72% of the vote, but the turnout, I can't remember what it was, was, but it was quite low. And so that could mean that if all a lot of his voters stay at home, that Count Binface could win.

[A]

Could win.

[B]

I mean, I doubt it.

[A]

What, what, what's interesting is that I think ultimately Nigel Farage has played his entire political career as the grit and the oyster. The outsider.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because of the success of his party over the last two years, partly because of this very bland, fumbling labor, also a defunct Conservative Party, you've seen Nigel Farage take the lead he's almost become sort of the establishment party to vote for. And I think he finds it easier to be the protest vote as opposed to out in front. And arguably he struck out in front too soon. This is the position. The positions that are 27 plus in the polls was where he would have wanted to have been in 2027.

[B]

But I also think that a lot of his supporters, members of Reform, I think a lot of ex Conservative MPs have joined Reform. They're slightly having buyer's remorse now.

[A]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[B]

Because they see that all these things in his register, members interest, they think, well, he can't possibly be spending enough time being leader of Reform. And if you want to become Prime Minister, you have to devote your time 247 to the job.

[A]

Job.

[B]

That's what Kemi Badenok is doing. She. You won't find her having all of these things in her registration.

[A]

I'm surprised she wasn't barbecue. Did you invite her?

[B]

No, I didn't. I'm just stating a fact. So. And look at the opinion polls now. I think there's an opinion poll today that shows Reform in third place behind labor and the Conservatives. And the Tory vote has gone up from average 16, 17, 18 to 20, 21, 22. So it's starting to creep up.

[A]

And did I see generic in the press? Generic, sleazy donations to his leadership campaign?

[B]

Yes, I think the police are investigating it. Although, of course, he was presenting on LBC this morning, sitting in for James o'. Brien. I mean, how ironic is that? I listened to quite a lot of his first hour and to give him his due, he was actually quite good at it.

[A]

Right, time for a break of that story. Do you know, years and years ago, I used to present on a local radio station called Herewood FM in Peterborough. Yeah.

[B]

And I got something I didn't know about.

[A]

So depressed. It was above the Queensway Shopping Centre in Peterborough. I was quite lonely and it was very early on in my career and I found it so depressing that sometimes, just to amuse myself, I'd introduce it off the music as Heroin fm. I got sacked from that job, but anyway.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah. And I presented with a guy called Kevin and I was like his female co host, but he definitely thought of me as his sidekick. And after about three months of living in Peterborough, presenting on Heroin fm, no

[B]

one would want that.

[A]

I decided that I was going to tell Kevin that he couldn't always come off the back of the music, that I wanted parity. And he literally looked like I was trying to exterminate him. He went, but I always come off the back of the tracks. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm telling you that I want to come off the back of some of the tracks. He said, but you don't like music. I said, but the listener doesn't know that. I can go Madonna or Bonnie Tyler.

[B]

Bonnie Tyler.

[A]

Bonnie Tyler.

[B]

I met Bonnie Tyler once and she's absolutely lovely.

[A]

Heaven on earth.

[B]

She didn't sing that.

[A]

I know, but she could have done.

[B]

Belinda Carlos.

[A]

But she could have done.

[B]

See, I do know about music.

[A]

I know. I knew she didn't sing that, but she was still.

[B]

We have a little sort of Bonnie Tyler segment. I was in the director's room at West Ham at a match, evening match, and there she was, and she was doing the halftime entertainment. She. She'd done her remix of Total Eclipse of the Heart with a new young group called Baby Something. And so they went out at half time and sort of belted it out. No one could hear anything, but she was so lovely. And I always divide famous people into people who are exactly the same as you think they will be, and those who clearly are putting on an act. And she was just fantastic. And I've got most of the records she's ever released, as you would imagine. I put. Do you remember Lost in France? That was her first big hit in about 1976. And I put that on Twitter this morning. And she was just.

[A]

She's died quite young. I mean, 75 now.

[B]

Well, she'd been. I think she was in a coma, wasn't she? I can't remember what happened, but there was. She'd be. She was in Portugal, I think, but

[A]

she took a song by the balls and she turned it.

[B]

And I had a really. I mean, just while we're on Death, some of our listeners who remember Politico's days will remember that we had a publishing company with that. And one of the guys that worked with me and in fact also worked with me at the beginning of Bite Back was called Sean McGee, and he was one of Britain's leading racing authorities, but he was a sort of book editor. And he. He was. Somebody is absolutely lovely guy. He had a slightly ambivalent work ethic.

[A]

Is he a friend of Bonnie Tyler's?

[B]

No, nothing to do with Bonnie Tyler. I'm just saying that somebody I worked with who I was very friendly with, who. He got Parkinson's recently and died this week. So I just wanted to say how sad I was about that.

[A]

Okay. I'm Sorry too, to hear that.

[B]

Well, you've talked about people close to you that have died. No, no, you're quite right, in a slightly reproachful way.

[A]

No, I'm not. I just. I just for some reason was expecting you to suddenly pull a Bonnie Dahler rabbit out of the poor dead man's hat. I mean.

[B]

All right, well, shall I say he, he was more than a lover, but not to me.

[A]

Okay, good. Glad we cleared that up. And it all started because I wanted to come off the back of the ad break because Ian always goes, right, I'm going to say Prince Harry. Prince Harry. Prince Harry. I came off the cruise ship into a Harry storm. It's so pleasing turning Piers Morgan down. You've got no idea.

[B]

Does Piers actually ask you himself?

[A]

No, he doesn't, but he. I know he is very. He's very engaged in the booking, Piers. He's very engaged in his product.

[B]

Yeah, quite right.

[A]

But why I mentioned that, because I

[B]

just let Corey get on with it.

[A]

Yeah, I know, we can tell. So he had Katie Nicholls, who formerly wrote for the Daily Mail, and also Charlotte Griffith, who's an editor at large at the Mail today, and they were testifying, obviously against Harry and Harry's case that, you know, the Mail had written stories through illegal means and he was one of seven household names who was taking this case and ultimately the judge fined against them in all cases. But then I felt like, on the

[B]

basis that they didn't reach the evidential threshold.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

So that's not actually saying that they didn't have any case at all. No, but they couldn't prove it.

[A]

Yeah, they couldn't prove it.

[B]

Which their lawyer should have advised them right from the beginning.

[A]

Yeah, but we know that David Sherborne, who is the lawyer that Prince Harry met when he was hanging out in Elton John's villa, looking out to the azure's blue Mediterranean Sea. And it was David Sherborne who was listening to Harry Ranton feel upset. Or was it Elton John? I can't remember which. They turn around to the young, angry Prince looking at his deep pockets and they said, why don't you hire a lawyer? And David Sherborne is the single person who has profited because some of the press has lost, because, of course, Harry won against the Mirror Group. He got an unprecedented apology against Murdoch's news corps. This is the first one he's outright lost. But the only consistent winner has been Harry's lawyer, as far as I can work out.

[B]

And. And will he have to or will they have to pay the Mail males costs because presumably that's, that'll be several million pounds.

[A]

Well, I don't know what, what, what financial arrangement they'll have come to or if there's any insurance or how it'll work out financially. But you can be rest assured that Harry's lawyer will be getting paid.

[B]

Well the lawyers are always, yeah, they're always the winners.

[A]

And I thought that was the one time I've ever agreed with Paul Daco who was the former editor of the Mail. He said it's 50 million. He was. But what was interesting was just to go back to Katie Nichols and these other journalists who were doing oh poor me, you know, because we've had such a stressful time, you know, having to prove that we were old fashioned journalists just knocking on doors and talking to.

[B]

Well, it would have been a stressful time.

[A]

It was a stressful time. But actually a lot of what they wrote was not in the public interest, was totally unnecessary and was deeply intrusive. And so actually that whole idea of oh poor ass, poor ass. They wrote horrible stuff about Prince Harry when he was young. There's no, there's no getting around.

[B]

But there's no law against that.

[A]

No, but it's unpleasant.

[B]

Okay, it's morally wrong, but that doesn't mean that there should be a legal case and then.

[A]

No, I agree, we clearly lost legal legally. But this isn't. The law is the law. And it's very separate from the moral barometer of where right and wrong sit.

[B]

But we all know that newspapers, it doesn't matter whether what the newspaper is, they don't operate well if they do operate by moral law, it's one that they set themselves.

[A]

I know and it's very compromising sometimes writing for the British press, even the

[B]

left, you and you and I have both been victims of some pretty awful things that have been said about us in the press. But would we ever think about going to the law?

[A]

Law.

[B]

Admittedly I went, oh, I don't have pop. I went to the regulator, but I didn't go to the law.

[A]

I actually was really unstuck by the Mail. They published a photograph that they didn't have permission to use the. Which has haunted me ever since. The thing is, I don't have an issue with Harry trying to take the Daily Mail to the cleaners. I totally understand why he's got a grudge. I do think that what you're seeing now, this kind of shameless hounding of him is totally one note because all the press perhaps with the exception of the Guardian, perhaps, all the press is absolutely, again, anyone who ever challenges them and Harry had the balls to do that. Now I can't write that in the press because the papers I write for don't approve of that line of thought. So I find I'm in a sort of.

[B]

Okay, well that's interesting. So. So you feel that you have to self edit before you send an article to any of these newspapers?

[A]

Oh, they get. My words get changed sometimes. For sure. For sure.

[B]

I found it in consultation with your. You.

[A]

Yes, normally. I spoke to my Italian architecture friend, Schwinte. Stop being a crybaby. Well, you think that I think it's morally light to turn one flat into six flats. I have to think this is a mental challenge. Can I turn one flat into six flats? And you need to do the same. You have to write negatively about Harry, but make it in a way that it feels okay for you.

[B]

I love your Italian accent, it's quite sexy.

[A]

We need to finish soon because I'm going to drink a bottle of Italian wine with my Italian friend that I bought her back from Trieste, pronounced with

[B]

an E. Well, let's have a break and then we'll talk about Ruth Ellis and do a few questions.

[A]

Indeed, sir. Oh, but we never talked about the history of the situation.

[B]

What situation?

[A]

I just want to say really quickly that the Italian was right. It did make me think really deeply about what Harry's trying to do. He's trying to get his own way against an institution that survived for a thousand years. It's managed against regicide, revolution, revolt, and even now in democratic times, it continues to succeed. And I thought, he's never going to win. He's never going to win against the Royal family. And the other thing about the Royal family, whether it was Queen Anne in the late 1600s where she's like, I actually think that my stepmom is not really pregnant. She literally ceded the idea of the bedchamber baby. It was her idea. She was a bit jealous. I think she'd been having loads of miscarriages and she didn't want a Catholic baby and she wanted her place on the throne. So she ceded that fake news. And in the end we know Charles II and, you know, off he goes to France giving birth to the pretender. So then we also have George vi, never lets Edward, the abdicated King back in. You know, bugger the fact that you're my brother. The exiled Duke of Windsor basically never gets to return to Britain, never gets a position back in the ruling Classes.

[B]

Did he deserve one?

[A]

But that. But the point is, as a family, you expect family to stick together and the Royal Family are great examples of a family who does not consider blood.

[B]

So when are you going to give your little brother a ring, then?

[A]

Well, he told me when I said I had bad concussion, he told me it was adhd. And he hasn't rescinded or apologized. He said, rather than saying, I'm really sorry to hear you've banged your head, he said, you need to get an ADHD diagnosis. But, you know, looking at what Tims has said about Pip, maybe that is the way forward. Free money. I've got an ADHD diagnosis and I'll get the money through Holyrood.

[B]

Interesting you say that because, I mean, I was reading about this this morning. I'm thinking, making. So he says the system isn't working, but says, oh, yeah, don't worry about the cost of it. I'm thinking, are you mad? And then Bridget Phillipson comes out with this mad idea of giving free child care to unemployed people.

[A]

I don't. I don't like your use of the word mad. That's pejorative. Just to quickly say on the subject.

[B]

Well, it was meant to be. It is. It is pejorative.

[A]

What annoyed me about Duncan saying, oh, get a ADHD diagnosis somehow that idea that everything has to have a label and that it has to be a negative, maybe the way I am is a positive. Occasionally I bang my head, you know, I'm so sorry about that. I'm tall and I don't always look where I'm going because I'm thinking I'm going to outwit Ian Dale. Stupid fucker. You and Duncan are both really annoying. Actually, I think I slumped into a bit of a depression earlier this year just because I was surrounded by so many mediocre men. Don't cut that bit. Corey,

[B]

Why do you want to talk about Ruth Ellis?

[A]

This. I think it's a really interesting case and also I had to talk about it Today on Channel 5 and I did a really bad job of it because David Lammy, who's the Justice Secretary, who's got a massive injury. Let's not pretend that the justice system isn't.

[B]

He might have a massive injury today, but I suspect he won't have be responsible for it after June.

[A]

Do you think that's why he quickly pardoned Ruth Ellis, the last woman to be hanged. To be.

[B]

Has he. He's pardoned her?

[A]

Well, yeah, he commuted her sentence. So basically she. He's not claiming she was innocent. But this pardon, and it comes authorized by the king, it replaces the death penalty with a sentence of life imprisonment to recognize the profound injustice of an exceptional case. That's his words, by the way. It's David Lammy's words. This is the woman apart from churches.

[B]

What's the point of it?

[A]

Well, it's interesting. That's what I thought actually. Good. And I went on the show thinking I was going to have to talk about whether we should be pardoning old sentences. And actually if I'd read the notes, it was whether we should reintroduce the death penalty, which is a very different debate. Debate. I find it, it's really interesting, you

[B]

know, you see, what, what is even the point of having that debate?

[A]

Well, but people have lent into the death penalty recently. So we've seen polling go up for the popularity the death penalty even among younger, because it was under 50, back over 50, including a 5050 split among the young who are perceived to be woken tree huggy. And so that, that's where the debate went down. I wasn't quite as prepped as I should have been. And against the right winger Lynn Somebody can't remember. Cut that bit. Lynn May. And against the right winger Lynn May.

[B]

Never heard of it.

[A]

I f. Okay, let's cut that all. And against the right winger Lynn May, who is out of the trap saying, I'm all for introducing the death penalty. Axel Rudicabana, you know, Southport Killer. Why wouldn't you want him killed? You know, don't bang him up, knock him out and you know, get rid of him. I'm all for the extreme cases being killed and you sit there on telly and because she personalized it through this one individual who, you know, killed sweet little dancing children, I suddenly found myself live on telly thinking, oh, I've got to defend Axel Rudicabana. You know, it was why we all hate the progressive left. You know, it was, it was a sticky wicket.

[B]

Shall I tell you how I would have argued?

[A]

Well, how would you have answered?

[B]

I would have said, look, I think this is a heart versus head issue in that we all in our hearts would like to see that man dead. But do we really want to live in a country where we exact revenge in that way? We live in a liberal, modern civilized society. We're not living in the 1500s. We've got rid of the death penalty. We're signed up to human rights conventions. And I mean at the moment we couldn't bring back the death penalty. I think under the Echo.

[A]

I decided it was probably best not to bring in the echo.

[B]

Yeah. As I'm saying, I'm thinking, I'm not sure that's the best.

[A]

That was a sticky wicket.

[B]

But do. Is that, is that I think you have to show that you understand people's emotions over these things. But, and I, I mean I'm, that is exactly my position. I used to be in favor of the death penalty and I, I sort of graduated from being fully in favor of it to anybody who committed a murder to then thinking, well, actually no, I'm going to restrict it to terrorists. Because a terrorist murder is I think in many ways worse than a normal murder. Because you're actually, I don't know. Well, no, because the murder is actually against the whole institution of the country. It's against the state.

[A]

Well, treason only was outlawed in 1998, interestingly enough. I mean, the death for treason.

[B]

And then in the end I thought, no, this cannot be justified in a modern society.

[A]

But that's what I agree. That's what I started by saying that, you know, Churchill benchmark of a civilized society, the way you treat your criminals, you know, they do things differently there. We've just been talking about Trump and I said, you know, come on, Lynn May, you don't even agree with the Iran war. This is, this is a kind of crazy American habit of kill people. They all get silted up on death row. And then when once the Axel Cabana thing was, I kind of went, oh, obviously he's a heinous man who did terrible things to small children and killed them. And then I found myself saying, but I just, you know, the idea of Britain going out on a limb and becoming a state that, that kills people, I just don't want that.

[B]

There is, I mean, arguing against myself now with DNA. Now you, you can make a logical intellectual argument for the death penalty, particularly if you've got sort of multiple DNA proof which wasn't around in the 19th century.

[A]

And with a case like the Southpaw killings, he was, he was the killer. I mean, people saw him killing, but, but it's also a bag. And why Ruth Ellis is an interesting case because she was a nightclub owner, she was a single parent, she was very glamorous, she was sort of outside the very conventional times. She had two children, a 3 year old and a 10 year old. She was clearly abused. There was a lot of coercive control in her relationship. This came out later. She'd been punched in the stomach just the week before, forcing a miscarriage, husband would regularly pull her hair out and so forth. But in the case, the judge said, discount all that because at the time, two years after that, it's going to be introduced mitigating circumstances, the diminishers responsibility. So that wasn't in law. So that's the other thing. It's not just about proof, it's about the lens through which we judge what are perceived today to be crimes, but tomorrow might no longer be crimes or are reduced responsibility crimes. I should have been done for manslaughter today, not for murder. And we wouldn't kill her because we don't have the death penalty.

[B]

We did a phone in last night on economic abuse and coercive control. Some absolutely fascinating calls. But I always find when I do the subject of domestic abuse, whether it's coercive control or whatever, you always get more men phoning in saying that they've been victims of it than women. Now, that may be partly because the demographic of the station is.

[A]

Just because LBC has too many male presenters.

[B]

No, well, no, keep that. I don't really.

[A]

I do. I'm sorry, I don't feel. I think if you had. If you were a woman, you'd have had a different response. I'm so sorry. Sometimes needing a female gp, but it

[B]

happens every single time.

[A]

I also think that men feel unseen in that arena, so it's the one chance they can get to push back against what's perceived to be otherworldly.

[B]

The reason it surprises me is because I think. I think if you're a man and you. I mean, to come on the radio and say that you've been coercively controlled by your female partner, that is emasculating in a way. And actually, I think most men would find it embarrassing to do so. But given the number of calls that we had. And you think, well, what about all the ones that aren't calling in? I think this is much bigger phenomenon than people think.

[A]

But the upshot of the Ruth Ellis case is I was anticipating going on to defend changing retrospectively or pardoning previous crimes. And in fact. So I went down this debate that I wasn't really prepared for, if I'm going to be honest. And you know me, I like to do my prep. And I felt slightly blindsided by having to debate something. You're right, it's a heart and a head thing, because of course we're not going to reintroduce the death penalty. And actually, I really unhelpfully started the debate by saying I think it's a Backward step, us having this conversation, which really will have ingratiated me with the producer, producers, the other, more broadly, why I, I changed my mind about, even though David Lammy's intro being full, him spending the time to, to, to revise the sentence and to effectively apologize. And I think that's because it's important to understand how perceptions and crimes and what we consider to be wrong at one point, you know, it's changed and that's, that's a really big deal. It's a really big deal because it's about progress. We don't always progress progress, but in that instance we've progressed. I think we've moved forward.

[B]

We should have a quick word about the fact that we're about to have a new Prime Minister.

[A]

Oh, we've got weeks to do that.

[B]

Well, no, he's going to become. Oh, no, it's not. Oh, no, I think it was Monday. It's the following Monday. Okay, we'll leave that till the next.

[A]

Andy. Andy Poo. Who? Some town. But it is the only time I've agreed with Trump. What? What?

[B]

Isn't it? Everyone thinks that it's outrageous that Nigel Farage is costing the taxpayer £250,000 in a buyout election and they take no account of the fact that Andy Burnham's resignation as Mayor of Manchester is costing five and a half million pounds.

[A]

I would suggest that the person who's going to be most gutted about the self detonation, because I think that's what we're seeing at the moment of Nigel Farage is Keir Starmer, because he must have thought, if only this could have happened like a month and a half ago, I don't think they'd have been bothering to decapitate Starmer because the reason they've got Andy in is to be able to retaliate against Farage. But it looks like he's going to have burnt out before the next election.

[B]

Starmer looks a diminished figure, doesn't he? When I saw him at the NATO summit.

[A]

Well, he is diminished.

[B]

The power has already gone from your fingertips.

[A]

But he. But he looks more relaxed.

[B]

Well, that's not difficult.

[A]

No. And I saw him give the Romanian beleaguered Prime Minister a big man hug. Well, they're both very little. A little man hug. A little moment like two little Polly pictures. Pockets. Anyway, a question.

[B]

I have a question. This is from Alison who says, I'm really concerned about Sunday. They have Vikings, we have Morris men. Well, it's actually Saturday and I'm really worried that I'm going to miss a bit of the first half because I'm going to the Bradford Literary Festival on. Have you done that one?

[A]

That's the football.

[B]

Yeah. Have you done Bradford?

[A]

Never done Bradford.

[B]

Well, I'm doing that on Saturday afternoon and my train doesn't get back to King's Cross until Tuesday. 21 minutes past 9 and it starts at 10. Will I get to my hotel in time? My premiere in Hub, you know, we did so well.

[A]

We managed a whole three sections of that mention of the book and somehow he's wangled it back in on your book festivals. Dino, or Dino, who regularly sends us messages and questions, has messaged me privately on my own Instagram account and said, hi Dr. T. This Saturday I'm attending an in conversation with Mr. Dale at Bradford Literature Festival. Wondering if you have a cheeky question I could possibly ask.

[B]

Well, you've got a couple of days to think about that one. This is. Oh God, I haven't brought my glasses. I don't know if I can.

[A]

Oh heavens. Here's a pair. Shove that on your nose, I think. William, do you want me to read it? Hand your computer over here.

[B]

It's quite long.

[A]

Oh God. Did you not read them first, Ian, before you came on the show?

[B]

Oh, it's about the number 10 of the north. Should we talk about that? William in Devon says following Andy Burnham's vibe only speech last Monday. I have to say I wasn't only less and impressed, I was angry. Cards on the table. I'm not a Labor supporter and personally I wish Cami could take over before Labour lands this country in even in an even bigger mess. But the announcement of a so called number 10 north and further briefing since then Burnham will be spending part of his week in Manchester has enraged me. Why is the north, or let's be accurate, the north west going to be getting such special treatment when there are so many more deprived and neglected parts of the country. For instance, the southwest of England where I come from is far more deprived of investment and representation than the north north of England. How can people across the country believe Burnham is anything but PM for Manchester and a sticking plaster for Labour? Far be it for me to defend London, but it is our capital city.

[A]

Is there a question?

[B]

This is coming to it and it does contain the largest localized population of our country. So it seems entirely logical to govern our country from London. Do you think Burnham will fall through with his current plans or do you think this will be the next Labour U turn? I don't think it'll be a U turn. I think he is going to go ahead with it. I'm not against some functions of government being sort of devolved into the regions, but do we really think that having the treasury have an office in Darling has made the treasury work any better? Although I think the Foreign Office have an outlet in Glasgow.

[A]

Stop. The DVLA is in Swansea.

[B]

I've been. I was on the phone to them this morning.

[A]

Just quickly because this is for balance license back. Last question. When did you get it back?

[B]

17th of August.

[A]

How much is your insurance going to be?

[B]

I haven't crossed that bridge yet.

[A]

Okay. Lucky you've got a well paid radio gig. This is from Martin. Love listening to the pod even when I disagree. And I'm reading this message against myself. Just a slight correction on the issues about getting through immigration in the Schengen area. That's when I was complaining about being back at the queue in Rome. And I was back at the queue in Frankfurt where I flew via Trieste.

[B]

Did you visit the sex shop at Frankfurt airport?

[A]

No, he said, because I was rushing because it took so long in the bloody queue with my fingerprints. And I said to a German, I want to go with my friend because she whipped her head. And he said, but she is German and you are not like that. He said it. Yes, I know it wasn't French, was German. Anyway, she says UK was never part of Schengen. Said the issues are not Brexit related, just EU incompetence. He's right, I did make a mistake that.

[B]

Yeah. And it's the fact is anyone outside the EU for the rest of the world has to go through this. It's not just Britain.

[A]

Indeed. So Good.

[B]

Well, in 140 episodes, that's the first time you've ever read out a email about against yourself.

[A]

Hi, my name's Tess and it's been a joy seeing you in again. Sitting alongside him, it's reminded me of how much I've been missing him.

[B]

Right, we will be back on Friday. No, no, we won't.

[A]

What are you on about?

[B]

No, we'll be back on Tuesday.

[A]

Just say goodbye.

[B]

We'll be back on Tuesday. Goodbye. And buy my [e-mail] Jesus, you so nearly managed.

[A]

Ian. You're a shameless whore. This has been a global production.