143. Tuchel Little, Tuchel Late

Summary

Podcast Summary: Where Politics Meets History

Episode 143: Tuchel Little, Tuchel Late
Date: July 17, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Main Theme

This episode explores how football, politics, and identity intertwine in contemporary Britain, especially following England's semi-final loss in the World Cup, the political turbulence involving Keir Starmer, and the assassination of a prominent female MP. Iain and Tessa weave together historical parallels, current political drama, and personal anecdotes to reflect on how history echoes through today’s events—with their trademark wit, flashes of friction, and robust debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Football, Identity, and Politics: History Repeats

• Football as a Distraction and Unifying Force

  • Tessa laments football distracting from urgent issues like climate change but also recognizes its power to unite (and divide) national identities.
  • Iain notes, “World Cups always unite… well, unite England and they unite Scotland against England, which is another disgrace.” [05:00]

• Fascist Football & Mussolini’s Italy

  • Tessa delves into how Mussolini used football to build a vision of athletic, masculine, unified Italy in the 1930s—sport as national weapon:

    “Mussolini’s got this obsession… they create a totalitarian state… mushrooming across the country, 3,000 sports fields, thousands of sports halls... it’s mind blowing the way the beautiful game is weaponized.” [07:10]

  • Discusses the importation of South American football talent and the creation of major clubs as tools of fascist nation branding.

• Football Management Parallels

  • The hosts debate England’s football strategy under (fictional) German manager Thomas Tuchel.
  • Iain: “I don’t like that we have a German manager… the Germans would never have an English manager of their national team.” [11:05]
  • Corey counters with the practicalities of football management, highlighting the historical and sociopolitical symbolism of these choices.
  • Both critique Tuchel’s late-game defensive tactics:

    “The upshot of it all was he fucked it up. All right, you know someone’s in trouble when Piers Morgan comes out defending them.” – Corey [10:34]

• Identity, Plurality, and Football Loyalties

  • Tessa shares how Scottish and English identities play out in family football allegiances, pointing to the deep emotional entanglement with national teams:

    “That primal bit of you being able to go England, I can’t do it... but it doesn't mean I didn't want them to win.” [14:18]

2. Keir Starmer, Leadership, and Political Upheaval

• Starmer’s PMQ Send-off & Perils of Leadership

  • Iain expresses empathy for Starmer leaving Parliament, noting:

    “Didn’t you find it sick making when all those 400 MPs clapped him out of the chamber, the very people that stabbed him in the back?” [00:10 & 29:00]

  • Both critique naïve optimism that structural issues will disappear with new leadership:

    “It's so naive to assume... structural problems are going to be whitewashed away because a guy with eyebrows and specs… is going to walk into Number 10.” – Corey [00:16; 29:27]

• Burnham’s “Bounce” & Party Turbulence

  • They predict a surge for Andy Burnham, referencing past Labour leadership bounces but questioning the depth of real “change.”
  • Iain predicts soon “Labour in the lead, Conservatives in second place, Reform in third” [32:08], warning that “you've got to have a great product to sell and I’m not convinced” [33:32].

• Critique of Politicians’ Football Comments

  • Tessa: “Keir Starmer says something interesting and makes it dull… he even urged Scotland to support England in the World Cup. It was pitiful.” [15:09]

3. Anne Widdecombe’s Murder and the Gender Debate

• Misogyny, Violence, and Political Targeting

  • Discussion over whether attacks on female MPs are more misogynistically motivated:

    “She flagged up that we're talking about whether this was a political murder… but nobody's actually mentioned the misogyny, that this was a man, violence against a woman.” – Corey attributing Yasmin Alibhai-Brown [39:49]

  • Iain pushes back: “I don't think at this stage you can say there's a sort of gender element to it.” [41:07]

• Toxicity and Online Abuse

  • Iain and Corey agree that the volume of online threats shapes public discourse and emboldens the extreme:

    “The threats… set a mood music, a tone that then means the most, slash, vulnerable, slash, psychopathic… are triggered into acting in this abhorrent way.” – Corey [48:43]

4. Ukraine, War, and the Downfall of Heroes

• Zelenskyy, Dismissals, and Political-Military Rivalries
  • Tessa explains Ukraine’s defense minister shakeup, drawing historical parallels with Churchill's dual roles & Hitler’s purge of rival generals:

    “If you don't get on with the top guy in a very hierarchical organization, you’re toast... the idea that political and military divisions rear their heads.” [26:00]

  • Speculates that Zelenskyy is removing a rising star for the sake of unity (or ego).

5. Media, the Book Launch, and Personal Anecdotes

• Iain’s Book Launch & Industry Friends

  • Tessa describes the diverse gathering at Iain’s launch, including feminist broadcasters Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and Nina Myskow, using it as a lens on the difficulties of older women in public life.
  • Iain (self-mockingly): “I do it all myself... I’ve only got one podcast to do tomorrow.” [36:10–36:22]

• Light-hearted Moments

  • Corey reminisces about making Lawrence Fox cry in an interview, providing comic relief amid heavier topics.

    “I made him cry once… He walked out of an interview.” [30:37]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• "I did feel empathy with Starmer yesterday. He put on a very brave face. But didn't you find it sick making when all those 400 MPs clapped him out of the chamber, the very people that stabbed him in the back?"
  — Iain [00:04], reprised [29:00]
• "It's so naive to assume the structural problems are going to be whitewashed away because a guy with eyebrows and specs...is going to walk into number 10."
  — Corey [00:16]
• "Mussolini’s got this obsession... they create a totalitarian state…mushrooming across the country, 3,000 sports fields, thousands of sports halls..."
  — Corey [07:09]
• "The upshot of it was he fucked it up. All right, you know someone's in trouble when Piers Morgan comes out defending them."
  — Corey [10:34]
• "It ought to be natural for any one of the four home countries to want the others to do well in a World Cup… But Argentina, come on."
  — Iain [14:29]
• "He cried. Didn't like...I wanted to ask him about inherited privilege...he certainly left the filming and refused for it to be aired."
  — Corey on Lawrence Fox [30:39]
• "She flagged up that we're talking all about whether this was a political murder...but nobody's actually mentioned the misogyny..."
  — Corey (via Yasmin Alibhai-Brown) [39:49]
• "The threats… set a mood music, a tone that then means the most, slash, vulnerable, slash, psychopathic… are triggered into acting in this abhorrent way."
  — Corey [48:43]

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• 00:04 – Opening banter & Starmer’s predicament
• 05:00 – Football’s political symbolism in Britain & Scotland
• 07:09 – Mussolini, fascism, and football's role in building the nation
• 10:34 – Critique of Tuchel's tactics and England's World Cup defeat
• 14:18 – National identity & football in families
• 15:09 – Starmer’s lack of charisma and “politicians talking football”
• 26:00 – Ukraine, defense minister shakeup, historical military parallels
• 29:00 – Starmer’s sendoff and the durability of political culture
• 32:08 – Poll predictions: Labour, Conservative, Reform
• 39:49 – Gender, misogyny, and political violence discussion
• 48:43 – Threats, toxicity, and the contagion of online aggression

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Takeaways

• Football’s role as both a unifying and dividing force is not unique to the modern era; history is full of regimes using sport as a tool for national identity or propaganda.
• Shifts in political leadership rarely solve deep cultural and structural problems—modern ‘vibes’ leadership can only go so far without foundational change.
• Violence against politicians, and particularly women, is complex and tied up with a climate of online toxicity and historically persistent misogyny.
• The intersection of national identity, family, and sport continues to shape how Britons relate to both their history and current events.
• Personal and professional anecdotes—whether about book launches or lunching with controversial figures—add spice and a human dimension to debates on weighty issues.

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Closing Note

As ever, Iain and Tessa’s mix of history, sharp debate, and dry humor makes for a lively dissection of the week’s news—with enough depth and wit to give listeners new ways to view old and new events alike.

Transcript

[Corey]

This is a global production.

[Ian]

I mean, I did feel empathy with Starmer yesterday. I mean, he put on a very brave face. But didn't you find it sick making when all those 400 MPs clapped him out of the chamber, the very people that stabbed him in the back?

[Corey]

It's so naive to assume that the structural problems are going to be somehow whitewashed away because a guy with eyebrows and specs and a slight northern accent is going to walk into number 10. First of all, he's going to lose half the party that don't get jobs. And secondly, it doesn't matter how well you can communicate, the same problems that democracy are facing will exist next week. Look, I know you've got a book out this week, but there's been a lot of other stuff going on.

[Ian]

Is that your way of saying let's not talk about Ian's book that was published on Wednesday?

[Corey]

Precisely.

[Ian]

Well, it's a very ungrateful thing for you to say, seeing as you were the star of my book launch sashaying around the Hippodrome casino.

[Corey]

By the way, Corey, who wasn't there, incidentally, I was the only person not mentioning mentioned in Ian's speech, but I.

[Ian]

No, that's not true. I mean, you weren't mentioned in the speech, you're absolutely right, but it wasn't deliberate and I feel slightly guilty now.

[Corey]

Good, good. Because Jackie was. By the way, everyone. Well, it's all right, moving on, because I was actually, in a tactful way, going to blend in your book launch in a subtle way, in a non vulgar way, because I was going to mention.

[Ian]

When have you been subtle? You're like a blunderbuss.

[Corey]

Well, indeed, but I'm going to try it. I'm just. Let me wear that hat. I'm going to blend it in because two very esteemed guests were at your book launch. One was Yasmin Alabaya Brown and the other was Nina Mishkoff. Indeed. I thought I'd leave that surname to you, Ian, as you know me so well, the die ends of the broadcasting industry. There's some really, really interesting observations to make as women of a similar age to Anne Widdcombe, who are also very public, I wanted to come onto that.

[Ian]

Well, and of course, Yasmin, she gets death threats virtually every day of the week.

[Corey]

Indeed. So let's. Let's come to that in a minute. Also, two major events this week. One getting slightly more att, the other the football and the fact that the climate is now history.

[Ian]

20th century weather is no Longer, according to one meteorologist.

[Corey]

And, well, I think that we're just living the reality of that changed history. But I've also done a fascinating deep dive, mini dive. It won't last long, but I promise you it's fascinating into the way in which football and politics have forever been entwined. So was it Peter Kyle? That business dude where. When? In the wake of the Argentinians.

[Ian]

For the next few days at least.

[Corey]

Yeah, indeed. Yeah. By the way, my friend. I know I've got a bit of gossip on him, we'll come to it later. But he came out saying it's essential.

[Ian]

I think he came out a long time ago, actually.

[Corey]

Oh, is he gay?

[Ian]

Yes.

[Corey]

I didn't know that he has a dog. He's not really into women then, is he?

[Ian]

Well, not if he's gay. No.

[Corey]

No, because my friend went to. To lobby him. Okay. And she found it a bit rude that he just kind of assumed she'd be okay with his dog. Yeah, I'm leaving that there.

[Ian]

Well, it depends what kind of dog it is.

[Corey]

Sort of proper dog. Dog. Not, you know, and it was kind of present and not everyone's okay with dogs. There was the assumption there. It was entitled, it was male.

[Ian]

Oh, of course it was.

[Corey]

Anyway, back to Peter within three minutes

[Ian]

of the episode starting. Here she is on her misandrist rant, as usual.

[Corey]

Actually, I could have got to it

[Ian]

sooner because we haven't mentioned Romania yet, so.

[Corey]

Oh, but we're going to, don't worry.

[Ian]

Well, that's a surprise.

[Corey]

But first of all, let me get through my list in relation to the climate because I felt more seen by him than I do by you sometimes. Now, there may be other reasons.

[Ian]

Seen by who?

[Corey]

I'm going to tell you in a sec. A big name, a famous name, a rival. I like to think Alastair Campbell was spinning through the revolving door of number 4 mil bank as I walked in today. I pretended I didn't know who he was and when I dropped my glasses, he bent down to pick them up and I went, that was kind. And then I said, gosh, this is cunting awful weather, isn't it?

[Ian]

You didn't say that.

[Corey]

I did. I used a really bad Tessa.

[Ian]

Don't use words.

[Corey]

No. I said, this weather's a cunt trick. That's what I said.

[Ian]

Oh, my God.

[Corey]

And he stopped and fully engaged and I went, oh, Alistair, hello. And then I felt he engaged more and I said, what have we done? He said, we've destroyed the planet. I said, I know. Right. And that was the moment. But there was a moment. I don't think it was just the hot weather that left a feeling of what?

[Ian]

Little frisson?

[Corey]

I think there was a tiny, teeny weeny Cruson. Maybe it was the C word, who knows? But anyway, I felt seen because he clearly is feeling the pain of the planet. So I wanted to talk about the way in which we wait on using our attention. Because this football, it's been a mighty distraction, hasn't it? I mean, it even butted into your book launch the goal.

[Ian]

Did it? How?

[Corey]

Because I think people, I mean, they've been a little bit focused on the football. Would it be better?

[Ian]

It was at lunchtime, so I don't know why they would have been.

[Corey]

No, but just more broadly the bandwidth.

[Ian]

World Cups always unite. Well, unite England and they unite Scotland against England, which is another disgrace. But we might leave that one for now.

[Corey]

Well, let's go back to Peter Kyle. It's essential. Well, let's go to the word. Okay, politics.

[Ian]

Let's go back to Peter Kyle, shall we? I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

[Corey]

He was explicitly saying that the banner that was expressing support for the Falkland Islands, Las Malvinaz. Bloody nearly said it.

[Ian]

Right. You made me say it. I refuse to say the word generally, but I said it. Yeah.

[Corey]

Trickers, trickers. Big gay knickers. Anyway, he said it was appalling, but. But will we just get into fascist football? Just get from the get go? Come on. Because I started thinking, when did the whole World Cups thing start, you know, being a bit of a ignoramus when it comes to football. And I felt last night I wanted.

[Ian]

I can tell you when it started.

[Corey]

Okay.

[Ian]

Jules Rimet in 1930.

[Corey]

And when did England first play in a World Cup?

[Ian]

Possibly 1934.

[Corey]

No, so out. Way out offside, by the way.

[Ian]

Was it after the war?

[Corey]

Ye. Yes.

[Ian]

So 1940. 50. 1950.

[Corey]

50, my friend, yeah.

[Ian]

Oh, that was when they lost to the United States. The biggest shock in World cup history.

[Corey]

They didn't leave the group stage. But enough about England, because way more interesting as we know, it's the game, it didn't come home, you know, the players are coming home, etc. Etc.

[Ian]

Only now, no, they're not. They've got to play the third, fourth place, whatever it's called.

[Corey]

It would be so undignified if they lost to France. It would be really ugly. I'm sorry, but it would be. So. Let's just hope they don't. Let's not go there. But. But now, so 1934. Where's the world cup held?

[Ian]

Italy.

[Corey]

Yes. Who's the leader of Italy at this time?

[Ian]

Mussolini.

[Corey]

Indeed. Mussolini doesn't really like football.

[Ian]

I'm doing well in this, Chris. I've done. I was on the Media club podcast earlier this afternoon and they, they had to do a Bruce Forsyth higher and lower. They, they read out a BBC presenter salary and then another one and I had to say whether it's higher or lower and, and I got 10 out of 10.

[Corey]

Well done. Stick with Mysolini, if you would please, because we've got to stay focused. The reason why, the way, if I'm speaking slightly faster than normal, is Ian's been so busy whoring his book around, he's arrived just before his radio show

[Ian]

to record the podcast an hour and a half before.

[Corey]

We might have to take fascist football over the break because it's so interesting. Mussolini's got this obsession. He comes in and so many parts of the far right's playbook, you see. And what was happening with the fascists in the 20s and 30s? They come in, Mussolini, Fascist, saying, failed, rubbish, trash. The, the Italian administration that's in there, they ride in the brown shirts. He takes power at the end of 1922 and they create. It's a totalitarian state, so it touches everyone's lives. And one of the ways they touch everyone's lives is by building a manly, athletic Italy that the country can be proud of. So mushrooming across the country, 3,000 sports fields, thousands of sports halls, their army trains, their PT, their physical training instructors. 14,000 physical training instructors. Okay, but they need some really good football players. So guess what? First international transfers coming in from South America. But the problem is the Italian fascists don't really want to admit they're having to rely on South Americans. Oh, children of Italian immigrants, of course, not real foreigners. It's absolutely mind blowing the way the beautiful game is weaponized by, by Mussolini. And also the infrastructure that comes along in the 30s means the country's joined up. Also, they want to give people in Italy a sense of belonging. So you get top down, clubs being created, Florentina, Roma, Napoli, all Mussolini creations, every single goddamn one. Can we come to the 1934 World cup after the break? So, so good, Ian.

[Ian]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Corey]

Are you enjoying it? Are you enjoying it?

[Ian]

I love being lectured about football by lady.

[Corey]

See, I hate the word lady.

[Ian]

I know, that's why I said it.

[Corey]

Absolutely hate it. But I managed to get the whole first quarter of this Corey without Ian complaining. About the German English football manager.

[Ian]

Oh, we can come on to that.

[Corey]

Oh, I thought we would break.

[Ian]

By the way, it's Fiorentina, not Florentina.

[Corey]

Well, I'm really glad because I was in flow state and it would have been so cruel if you'd interrupted me then.

[Ian]

Well, that's what I thought anyway. Going back to Thomas Tuchel, obviously I was on air last night, so it was rather difficult. Although I did manage to watch some of it, particularly in the last hour where we played a pre recorded interview with Anne Widdakeham out. But it was mind blowing. He's normally been really good at substitutions. But why when you go 1 nil up after 55 minutes, do you then throw on defenders? You've got 35 minutes to go. What he should have done is capitalized on it. We were brilliant on the break. Keep going because it's successful. And I mean, I saw something on the Internet this morning which, I mean, I did almost immediately dismiss it as ridiculous, but there was this Daily Telegraph headline which must have been AI generated saying Putin installs Tuchel as England manager. To. To basically do down English morale and all of that.

[Corey]

Yeah, I mean, come on through to the semi every game. You were quite.

[Ian]

Oh, no, I. I think it was

[Corey]

a better team one, I'm sorry to say. As somebody who walked in and watched the match, I thought that's. Even I did think, why is he putting all those back?

[Ian]

Dirty bastards.

[Corey]

But all the back, the people, but the defenders, I thought the exact same and I don't even watch football. I was like, why on earth would you do that? Because I said to Dan, what happens if it goes to penalties? You need people who can kick the ball. I always think defenders are part timers. Do they get paid less than strikers?

[Ian]

Generally, yes.

[Corey]

Anyway, the upshot of it all was he fucked it up. All right, you know someone's in trouble when Piers Morgan comes out defending them. But.

[Ian]

But the thing is, even though we've reached the semi final, which cannot be considered a failure in historical terms, there are already people calling for him to be sacked.

[Corey]

No, he can't. He just signed a new contract.

[Ian]

Well, that doesn't stop mean he can't be sacked. They just pay him compensation. I mean, that's what happens in football management. I don't like the fact that we have a German manager as well. No, we are the England national football team. What does it say about our country if we can't provide an English sound

[Corey]

like the Mussolini's fascist.

[Ian]

No, no, no, it's got nothing.

[Corey]

No, no, no, not at all.

[Ian]

It's got nothing to do with that. Look, I support a team that has lots of foreign players and I think a lot of them turn out to be absolutely brilliant. My two favourite West Ham players, one French, one Italian, so don't throw that one at me, but I think it is. The Germans would never have an English manager of their national team.

[Corey]

The Germans have won the World cup

[Ian]

several times since 1960 with the German manager.

[Corey]

But they don't need to import talent.

[Ian]

Well, I just think it sends all the wrong signals.

[Corey]

I think he'd been doing really well until five minutes, until the end of the game. If he'd got it across the line and they hadn't got the goal, everyone would be going, Tugentoggle is the best person on the planet.

[Ian]

No, I don't disagree with you. Anyway, going with your history.

[Corey]

But anyway, it's just really fascinating. So basically Mussolini's into all these other sports. Boxing's the really big thing between the walls that makes you macho and manly. And they also have the world champion heavyweight boxer, Italy. This is also the emergence of the celebrity culture. There's all these newspapers. Radio enters the homes for the first time in the 1930s. Binding minds, home and hearth. So you can actually transmit. You'd have to wait on the ticker tape where with the. They have to. First of all, I think it's during the Uruguay World cup in 1930. They have to wait the sort of the ticker Tate telegrams to find out what the score is. But by 1934, you've got the radio you can transmit. People can really feel joined up. And he concedes, okay, we're going to lean into football. Even though he thought it was pretty English because it was an Anglophilia kind of sport. It been come from. From our empire, from. We know public school boys and also traders and sailors who played it in ports and stuff and it kind agree from there. But generally it was countries who had this connection with. With England initially or Britain rather. Sorry, that's the real drop ball drop there. So I was about that. My daughter incidentally, was watching the match yesterday up in Scotland and was really upset that her nephews and nieces. Well, no, they're actually her cousins were supporting Argentina. That's my liberal Democrat SMP little brother Scottish. His children supporting Argentina.

[Ian]

I wonder what he supported.

[Corey]

Well, she said luckily he came in too late to be really off anyway

[Ian]

and this is being totally genuine. I find it an absolute disgrace that Scottish people Behave like that.

[Corey]

What I found really interesting, and this leans into plural identities because there's quite a lot of people who in Italy were anti the fascists and there was this close association between fascism and the World cup that they host in 1934 and they win, incidentally, Austria was the really good team. Austria and Hungary with the really big footballing teams at the time and, and, and Italy beat them. Obviously England refused to join in. They don't actually play in the contest at all. But what's fascinating is that you can protest against fascism and you can feel anti what's going on politically, but you can still lean into the football team and this idea of the plural identity. But I have to say, while I was fascinated Mara was so keenly identifying as English, given she's also quite got quite pronounced Romanian antennae that, that, that she felt a passion for the sport, having been born in England in a way that I, I just can't because there' the way I was constructed in Scotland that stops me. That primal bit of you being able to go England, I, I can't do it. It doesn't mean I didn't want them to win, but I can't do that.

[Ian]

It ought to be natural for any one of the four home countries to want the others to do well in a World Cup. I mean, okay, if Scotland play England, obviously all Scottish people are going to want Scotland twin completely get that. But Argentina, come on. I mean, if Northern Ireland were playing, I'd want them to win. If Wales were playing, I'd want them to win. If Scotland were playing, I'd want them to win.

[Corey]

I've got to say, at this point you're sounding almost as politically tone deaf as Keir Starmer. Oh, we've got to come onto his dud last week, by the way. All kicking off in Ukraine just as Keir Starmer flies out there. He desperately also wanted to have his final hurrah over in America at the World cup final. And that's.

[Ian]

Now I feel really sorry for him actually, that what a way to go out that would have been to attend the final and England win the final. I mean, I don't know if you watched yesterday's PMQs, you probably didn't, but I watched it later on in the day and it was Parliament at its best. And both Keir Starmer and Kemi Baezinot both played a blind. It's the sort of interactions that you would hate because they were quite chummy.

[Corey]

Yeah, it was chummy. And he never. Sadly, I had the best Quote I heard about, you'll like this because it's positive. Nigel Farage is. Nigel Farage says something style and makes it interesting. And Keir Starmer says something interesting and makes it dull. But not only that, two days ago he urged Scotland to support England in the World Cup. I mean, the idea that the man who can't deliver a message could somehow, as an Englishman, convince a failed English politician, could convince Scotland to support England in the World cup, it was ridiculous. He even thought he could get away with saying it. It was pitiful.

[Ian]

I have to say, I don't really like politicians talking about football because Keir Starmer is a genuine football fan, I get that. But he never sounds like it.

[Corey]

That's probably because he doesn't sound genuine about anything. But if the Mussolini story. What's really interest. So they. They win. Not only that, but Italy have spent so much money on sport and this kind of manly idea of nationhood. It's a shame it never transferred, by the way, onto the battlefield. Good for us, because they were our enemies, of course, our fascisto enemies. But they were rubbish soldiers. They're exceptionally talented. They had the heavyweight boxer. They came number two in the medal table in the 1932 Olympics. They came number four on the medal table in the 1936 Munich Olympics. They also win the football gold at that Olympics. And they win their own gold, obviously, in the 1944 Olympic. Watching all of this, because we know a lot of them are over in Italy.

[Ian]

There weren't Olympics in 1944, were there?

[Corey]

1934 World Cup. Sorry. Right, yeah. But watching all of this. Thank you for picking me up. Were all the South Americans. So this strain of sort of fascisto dictatorship, politics blending with sport, was exported. And you get your Brazilian dictatorship in the 60s. And we know the big Brazilian fiction secretary in the 60s. Was it 64?

[Ian]

No, they won in 1958 and 1970. Did they win in 64?

[Corey]

Don't know. But that's when the dictatorship takes over, I think, in 1964. Anyway, it's a. It's a. It's pretty.

[Ian]

No. 6. No, there wasn't the 62. I can't remember if they won in six. I should look it up while you look it up while you continue your education.

[Corey]

And then. And then on we go on into Argentina. Of course, then you get Peron, Peronism, Ava Perron blending into the military junta, the coup. And then on into the Argentinian 1978 Big Historic World cup victory. And that extraordinary way in which military ugly. I would Say politics weaponizes football. So the idea that Peter Kyle can turn around and go, oh, it's terrible to like to say something horrible about the Falkland Islands. Politics should never blend with. With football. I'm like, mate, come on. That's half the reason why these countries lent into football in the first place.

[Ian]

That may be, but it is unprecedented for a football team at the end of the match, which they've won, to seek to humiliate the opposition team by putting up a banner which is totally against FIFA rules.

[Corey]

It is against FIFA rules, but if you don't mind me saying so, the booing, the English booing during the Argentinian national anthem. Pretty amazing.

[Ian]

I thought you said you didn't watch it.

[Corey]

I did watch it. I told you I want my 90 minutes back.

[Ian]

You said you. You said you walked into the room.

[Corey]

No, I walked into the room on most of the matches because they were on all the time. But last night I invested. Did 20 minutes watching with the Italians and they were annoying me. Interestingly, again, about identity, Italian parents. No, I'm really sorry. We don't want England to win. We're really sorry, but it's just.

[Ian]

Why do they live here, though?

[Corey]

Well, it's just they said it's just the way England fans are and they did a sort of impression or like

[Ian]

Italian fans are any different. I mean, please.

[Corey]

But interestingly, their son, born and educated, was really supporting England.

[Ian]

Good. Well, good on him.

[Corey]

That's about identity. That's about. It's interesting, isn't it?

[Ian]

No, it's not about identity. Argentina's got nothing to do with Italy.

[Corey]

But there is. I don't know. I can't answer the Italian.

[Ian]

Why would you live in a country, make it your home and then sort of act like that? I don't understand it, because it's a

[Corey]

bit overbearing when you're in a host country that's just won the World Cup. And they know that because we've never

[Ian]

won the World cup since 1966, so how would they know?

[Corey]

Well, they know it's quite overbearing when we just get through the group stage, to be honest.

[Ian]

And it's not like that in Italy, of course. Italians are far more passionate about their football than we are, and they're their own.

[Corey]

But the thing is, as Keir Starmer should have known, and I expect you to know too, as the nation, nation's favorite broadcaster and writer of a brilliant autobiography, you cannot force identity. And something as instinctive or as I'm

[Ian]

not expecting to renounce their Italian Heritage. But I still don't get this. That, like, if I went to live in Germany, which is the only country that I ever came close to moving to permanently, if England played Germany, obviously I. I wouldn't pass the tebbit test. I would want England to beat Germany. But if Germany were playing in a World cup against other teams living in the country, I think I would automatically want them to win.

[Corey]

But you think you would, but you don't.

[Ian]

Well, I think I'm pretty sure I would.

[Corey]

Anyway, then I crossed sides because I was finding it so unbearable being there, you'll be glad to hear. And I watched it on my phone. Bumped into a lamppost. I'm always hitting my head.

[Ian]

Do they listen to this podcast?

[Corey]

She does occasionally.

[Ian]

Well, I hope they don't listen to this one.

[Corey]

She thinks you're quite good, actually. She's never said that about me, but it's such a sort of weak female thing to think you're good anyway. So not to think you're good, but to think you're better than me anyway. So I walk home watching it and bump into a lamppost. And then I get back to Dan. Of course, he's Romanian. Watching it on Romanian telly. Quite quickly, watching it on Romanian telly, I realized that there's far too many mentions of. Not Pitchfork, what's it called? Pitchford, Pickford, Peckford, Pittford. However they were saying it and I thought, oh, God, this is like listening to St. Johnson playing in the 1980s. As soon as they mention the goalkeeper a lot, you know something terrible is going to happen, which is the opposition will score. And sure enough, they did. But Dan, I think, was a bit more generous about it. Mara up in Scotland was having a terrible time. So there's all these plural identities going on, but it made me, Dan and the Italians, Ungenerous form towards England, made me lean into England more than I would usually expect to.

[Ian]

You won't have heard this, but on. On. Was it Monday or Tuesday evening? Tuesday evening. I had a guy called Sonny Green on my show in the 9 o' clock hour and he's become a bit of an Internet sensation. And he was on Britain's Got Talent. Reached the final. He's a slam poet. Do you know what slam poetry is?

[Corey]

I think I do. Is it like rap poetry?

[Ian]

Sort of, yeah, absolutely. He's. I don't know how old he is, probably about 30. A real geezer boy, market trader from Southend. And he became famous because he wrote this poem called what England Means to Me. And when I First came up on my Instagram. I assumed it was going to be some sort of, like, far right thing, but it wasn't at all. It was really quite meaningful. And, I mean, you know what, I'm like sort of shedding a little tear. And I remember it made me feel really emotional because he managed to articulate it in a way that nobody else ever has. And he was talking about, yeah, cups of tea, but pizza too, and sort of was talking about sort of different identities and. And he goes, that's my England. And it was just riveting. And so he then gone to Britain's Got Talent. I thought he was gonna win it, but he came about fifth, I think. And he's now done a World cup anthem, An Englishman in New York, the Sting song.

[Corey]

Nice.

[Ian]

And changed the lyrics. And he came in on Tuesday. What a breath of fresh air. I mean, if you have a chance, listen back on Catch Up. I mean, I didn't really have to say a word. I said at the end of it, mate, you could take my job. You're just so. You could articulate things in a way that I never could. And he. I think he. He can appeal to sort of like cross generations, and there's not many people can do that.

[Corey]

Nice.

[Ian]

So I think we'll hear a lot more of him.

[Corey]

Anyway. The upshot of it all is that football got a lot of attention recently, I think you'd all agree, and the poorer climate, which is quite dusty, didn't get any. That's just the point I wanted to make. And I was able to share that with Alistair Campbell, and that felt good. I didn't talk about the football once to him. In our very brief exchange, you know, that time I interviewed Rury Stewart, did

[Ian]

you tell him that you'd done that?

[Corey]

No, I didn't, because I thought best not to. I wanted him to feel special in the moment. But I remember you saying that you know which of the two of them you'd rather hang out with.

[Ian]

I really like Alastair Campbell. I know that many people listen to this podcast would think that's outrageous because of Iraq and all the rest of it, but. But he's been a good friend to me over the years, and if you're in a fight, you want him on your side.

[Corey]

Yeah, I liked him.

[Ian]

He's engaging. He's got a lot to say on all sorts of different issues. Obviously, we disagree on a lot. He's had huge struggles with his mental health. In my first, probably eight years in lbc, I interviewed him quite a lot about that. And there were several times when he came into the studio and he was going through a real black dog depression. But he was perfectly happy to talk about it. And so I'm not going to say I won't hear a word against him. But he's a real person and so many people in our world are not real people.

[Corey]

That is true. So we've established that I support England, I believe in climate change and I'm scared of it. And Alastair Campbell we both like.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Corey]

And will we move on now? I think we should go to Keir Starmers. Yeah, Keir Starmers last week. There's a lot to say there. Let's unpack it.

[Ian]

Well, let's talk about Kia and Andy because I kind of feel that the Kia era is already finished. That PMQs I think almost signaled the end.

[Corey]

We've got to talk about where he is at the moment though, Ian, because it's imploding. He's in Ukraine and it's imploding at the moment.

[Ian]

Is it?

[Corey]

Yes. There's. Oh my God. There's protests all over the streets about what I'm for. You know, I'm always one for putting up posters of Vladimir Zelensky, finest military leader of our time. I've always had a real soft spot for Zelensky. But there's real problems going down in Ukraine. His defense minister who was a kind of walk on water, 35 year old Fedorov. Let's hope I've said that right. Because if Ian hasn't heard of him, he can't correct me. Right. It's a very good looking trendy, gets up on stage, loud music, lots of tech. He really has always been a techie guy embraces tech. He is seen to have basically revolutionized the way in which Ukraine. Ukraine are weaponizing not only but particularly drone warfare. So that for example, in the last nine days 116 Russian vessels have been decapacitated. He's basically turned the Crimea into this isolated island that Russia can't get to because he's cut off all their naval support and the bridge has already been blown up. Like he's done proper shit. He's just been sacked in a reshuffle. Now there's two trains of thought here. One is, and this is openly common knowledge, he doesn't get on with the head, the general that runs the Ukrainian military services. And if you don't get get on with the top guy in a very hierarchical organization, you're toast. By the way, this is an advert for making the president or the prime minister also the minister of defense, which is what Churchill did in World War II, copying clemence low, the French prime Minister in World War I. You didn't need to correct me. That's fine. People were going with it. Okay, so ministers who really know their onions and want power, they take both the Ministry of War or Defense and the. The leadership of the country. Zelenskyy hasn't done that. His military leader, head of the. The military brass, doesn't like this new minister of defense. He's trod on toes. This is very common. Hitler had. Hitler had this a lot. He didn't like the old school Prussian sort of style military officers. He associated them and with the sort of tainted legacy of World War I. And in the end, they tried to take Hitler down in the perch in 1944. The relationship got so had once the tables had turned. So it's not uncommon, the idea that political and military divisions rear their heads. But the other train of thought as to why Zelenskyy has come down on the side of his military and not on this young political, really popular guy. So popular that everyone's protesting in Ukraine at the moment because they want him reinstated, is that Zelenskyy can't bear sharing the limelight. Right.

[Ian]

Well, that's often an accusation that's leveled against politicians. Nothing particularly new, but I mean, it seems, and I haven't really read up on this lately, but it does seem as though the Ukrainians are making a bit of headway in the war. So why would you cite your defense minister?

[Corey]

Weird. Well, why indeed. But Keir Starmer's literally flown into this turmoil today.

[Ian]

Yeah.

[Corey]

So he's not really going to be the man at the moment. I mean, an earth to our prime minister with no power, turning up to a country which is. Is bushfighting really putting out bushfires.

[Ian]

The thing with Zelenskyy is he does maintain contacts with people who lose office. I mean, I know that he's in touch with Boris Johnson still, for example. And Keir Starmer has been a loyal ally of Zelenskyy. So I suspect they will keep in touch whether. Whether Donald Trump will keep in touch with Keir Starmer, I think is more

[Corey]

questionable, possibly, which I think is particularly why Zelenskyy wanted to literally fly from Ukraine. Must have been to the United States to watch this World Cup Final. And he's not going to have to do that because had England won, it would have been a bit of a sort of nose thumb, wouldn't it to the American President.

[Ian]

I thought it was great yesterday when Kimi Badenot paid tribute to Starmer for immediately inviting Zelensky to Downing street after the debacle in the Oval Office. And I mean, I do, I did feel empathy with Starmer yesterday. I mean, he put on a very brave face. But didn't you find it sick making when all those 400 MPs clapped him out of the chamber, the very people that stabbed him in the back? It was just awful.

[Corey]

Well, also, I just think it's so naive to assume that the structural problems with not just Britain's government, but particularly there are some that are unique to Britain, but not only are going to be somehow whitewashed away, because the guy with eyebrows and specs and a slight northern accent is going to walk into number 10. First of all, he's going to lose half the party that don't get jobs. That's the first thing that's going to happen. So he'll find that he's not nearly as popular at the beginning of next week as he is at the tail end of this week. And secondly, it doesn't matter how well you can communicate, the same problems that democracy are facing will exist next week. The only win for Andy, and this is serendipitous, is Nigel Farage has been a bit upended recently.

[Ian]

Well, he could be upended by a bin soon. That would just sum up British politics, wouldn't it, if he lost that by election. I can't really see. Apparently there are like a dozen candidates already.

[Corey]

Yeah, but they're all, I think, the bins. You've got that Fox. Lawrence Fox guy. But he's the far right of. Yeah, he's to the other side of Farage, isn't he?

[Ian]

Yeah, away, away the other side.

[Corey]

I made him cry once.

[Ian]

Did you?

[Corey]

Yeah, he walked out of an interview.

[Ian]

He cried?

[Corey]

Yeah, he cried. Didn't like, because. Well, I went on his in surf. First of all, I came on his show once on GB News and it went viral, so he's really thrilled. So then I was asked would I have lunch with Lawrence Fox and could they film it? It was a sort of feature they were doing in the early days of GB News. You know me, I said, if you pay me. So I turned up and it was a sort of fake lunch. Like the sandwiches had clearly been used before. They were like sad at the edges. You clearly weren't meant to eat the sandwiches. So I plowed through a couple of them anyway, you know what I'm like. And then I wanted to ask him about, you know, inherited privilege, you know, about how he felt about, you know, let's unpack. I think it was something he had said, leveled accusations about. I don't know, I can't remember. But I definitely asked him what it was like to be for an acting dynasty and whether we could interrogate ideas of white privilege through the lens of his family. And he just. I mean, he nearly turned over the table with the sandwiches on it. He certainly left the film and he refused for it to be aired. So then I had to fight to get the fee. But you'll be glad to hear they did pay me in the end.

[Ian]

You'd have to pay me an awful lot of money to have lunch with Lawrence Fox.

[Corey]

Wow.

[Ian]

He came on my show once on Cross Question, I think, and he was. I just thought he was plain weird.

[Corey]

He's a bit weird, he's a bit sad. But anyway, the bottom line is whether Farage wins or not, it does make the landscape, I think, for Burnham, easy. There's less of an obvious terrifying opposition.

[Ian]

Here's a prediction. I think it is possible that within two months, the opinion polls will show Labour in the lead, the Conservatives in second place and Reform in third place. Because I think Burnham will have a popular period to begin with because he will talk a good game. The vibes Prime Minister will be vibing away the.

[Corey]

The burn and bounce.

[Ian]

The burn and bounce, yes. And if you look at the polling at the moment, Reform is on a downward graph. It's gone down from 30, 32 to now 23, 25. I think they will go down to about 20. The conservatives having failed to match Kemi in the polls because she's still the most popular leader. They've gone from 16, 17, 18 to 19, 20, 21. Now, that's not a massive leap, but it's. It's a start. And I think that in September, October, they will be 20, 21, 22. So I think politics is going to be incredibly interesting because if. If the great salesman of British politics, I. E. I mean, we would have said Nigel Farage a few months ago, but I think that title has been transferred to Andy Burnham. He's a great salesman, but as I keep saying, you've got to have a great product to sell and I'm not convinced he's got that product. I don't think he knows what his product is. And if Labour MPs start to think this, in two or three months time, the cries of Bring back Starmer will be ringing from the House of Commons.

[Corey]

I Don't think they'll say, bring back Starmer. I think he's got an easier inheritance that Starmer had, that there's definitely been an economic uptick. It's not been massive, but I think things look healthier than they did two years ago. We've just spoken about Nigel Farage kneecap capping him. I've got to say, I did some really interesting reading about this whole bitcoin crypto world. What's unusual about the finances of reform is that they are disproportionately funded. Like, almost exclusively, they are funded by these crypto billionaires. And this is kind of, you know, the George Cottrell, he writes books about how to launder money, and they're at the same time promoting them, talking to the bank of England, writing this draft legislation. And that's where it's dodgy. If it was just sort of 10% of their funding. But it's that disproportionately they are dependent on cryptocurrency and crypto investments at the same time as trying to push the agenda of crypto investments.

[Ian]

Sorry, I sort of switched off. No, no. When you mentioned the word crypto, I. I kind of blank out, but.

[Corey]

And I think that's.

[Ian]

I used to do that with AI. I don't any longer, but I think

[Corey]

that's why Farage, to an extent, will get away with some of this, because people just think it's boring.

[Ian]

Well, they either think it's boring or they think it's beyond them. And I'm. I'm a bit of both in that I'm not sure. I don't. If you said to me, ian, could you explain for the dear listeners what crypto actually is? I'm not sure I could, but.

[Corey]

Okay, let's put it in layman's terms then. Let's just say Nigel Farage makes all his money mining. Okay, so. And then, you know that all the funds for his party come from gold mine mines. Let's take it back a century and look at the same time, we can see that he's talking to banks and all these important political people who write legislation and run the banking about mining and how mining needs to get special, you know, governance and protection and etc. You're right.

[Ian]

I get that.

[Corey]

Yeah. That's the only bit you really need to get your head around.

[Ian]

Yeah. But I still don't understand really what cryptocurrencies are.

[Corey]

Well, it's like currency. That is.

[Ian]

It sounds like a betting market to me.

[Corey]

Well, I think there is a bit of that. Let's not interrogate that. Let's do a deep dive on that another day. Will we?

[Ian]

Or not? Or not.

[Corey]

Clearly not. Blind leading the blind here.

[Ian]

Right, let's have a break.

[Corey]

We're nearing the end. It's not that I don't want to be in your company. I've really enjoyed it, as usual, but it's just. It means I can talk about Nina Mishkoff and Yasmin Alabi Brown at your wonderful book launch. Is there anything you'd like to share about your launch weekend?

[Ian]

It's been quite stressful. I'm absolutely knackered. It continues tomorrow. I've got various things on tomorrow. No. What have I got on tomorrow? No, I've only got one. I've only got one podcast to do tomorrow.

[Corey]

Only one. What will you do with yourself all day? You might have to talk to your

[Ian]

husband, tidy up my disgusting bedroom and send out lots of books because I've got lots of orders that have come in that I haven't sent out yet.

[Corey]

Do you do that all yourself? I do pay a little person.

[Ian]

No, I don't. I do it all myself. Myself. And then on Saturday. And this. This is an event plug. Should you live in southwest London, you might like to come to the Richmond Upon Thames Theatre. Or is it theatre? Probably in Richmond Upon Thames, where I'm appearing on stage with Matthew Dankona and General Sir Richard Barrons and we're going to be talking about the General's book and also sort of military strategy and the world situation as it is today.

[Corey]

Interesting.

[Ian]

And as you can imagine, I'm an expert on military strategy.

[Corey]

Well, you'll need to get your head around Ukraine.

[Ian]

No, honestly. Well, I will do, but I'm. I don't think I've ever been so nervous about doing an event because I feel a complete imposter on it. And I can talk about the politics of the world situation, but I mean, don't. Don't ask me about military.

[Corey]

But aren't you going to be interviewing them?

[Ian]

No, no, Matthew is interviewing me and Richard.

[Corey]

Oh, God, that's embarrassing.

[Ian]

I know quite well.

[Corey]

Just do a bit on the politics of Ukraine, I think, and drone warfare or something. Do you do some macro ideas of linking up the generals? Find a connection between Wellington and.

[Ian]

Yeah, I know, but I mean, I've edited the book. I've read it, obviously, like dozens of times, but I can't remember every detail about every gender.

[Corey]

I know. Go on to your Instagram algorithm and see if you can find some 1.3 reels. Because you can take in content that way in that would speak to your attention span. Could anybody please send Ian the necessary. Sorry.

[Ian]

Slightly dreading it. So if you want to come and make me make a complete dick of myself, I'm sure there are tickets still available. Richmond upon Thames Theater, 7:30 this Saturday.

[Corey]

It's quite a big guest. Richard. Is he.

[Ian]

No, he is.

[Corey]

He was the head of the military.

[Ian]

Was. He was. Absolutely. He. He was the co author of the Strategic Defense Review with Lord Robertson and he said if he'd known that the government going to ignore it, he wouldn't have bothered doing it.

[Corey]

Well, in the end it felt kissed arm. It was one of the many nails in Starmer's coffee.

[Ian]

Absolutely right. And then after that, I'm going to stay at a hotel near Paddington Station and get a train to Tiverton Parkway to be driven to visit my aunt Esther, who's 90 years old, on Sunday. So are you going to force her

[Corey]

to buy a book?

[Ian]

I've sent her a book, but asked her not to read chapter six.

[Corey]

Oh, so now we can get on to Nina and Yasmin, because that was. You had a quote on the back cover of your book from Anne Widdicom and you of course very fittingly opened with a tribute to Amidigum, who would have been at your book launch.

[Ian]

Yes.

[Corey]

And that got me talking to Yasmin and Nina about the difficulties of being an older woman. First of all, they. They expressed their great sorrow because they often met her on. Knew her on the sort of circuit of life and broadcast and politics, but particularly on that Jeremy Vine Channel 5 show which you went on and spoke on at the beginning of this week. But. And I don't know, this shouldn't really surprise me, but Yasmin, I suppose, being of the same political hue as me, just said, I'm just outraged. She's flagged up that we're talking all about whether this was a political murder. You know, the extent to which the political murder, but nobody's actually mentioned the misogyny that this was a man. Violence against a woman. Do we think that a man with the exact same political views and the same ideas and the same kind of level of profile would have been as vulnerable as Anne Widecombe. To what extent?

[Ian]

Yes, I do believe that because the. David Amos is a perfect example.

[Corey]

He is an example. But I actually. But if you look, if you take it beyond the political, because now you. If you're going to look at stats. Well, Jo Cox, now you have Two women to one man.

[Ian]

Well, yeah, there's too small. I don't think you can look at it. But if you look broadly, we don't know exactly what the guy's motive was. So until we understand exactly what happened, we shouldn't draw too many conclusions. But I. I don't think at this stage you can say there's a sort of gender element to it.

[Corey]

Well, given. I think my broader point was via Yasmin. He put the idea in my head and I wish it had been my thought, really, is that all of it's been speculation, most of it at this stage. I mean, we know that counter terrorists,

[Ian]

and we have to admit. You may not like this, but Far was right in what he said. I thought he said it too early, but he was right.

[Corey]

But what's interesting is Farage and the police cantabism now focusing on that political motivation. But equally extremist and misogynist two, arguably hand in glove.

[Ian]

I think you are drawing conclusions without any evidence whatsoever on the misogyny point.

[Corey]

Do you?

[Ian]

I mean, the guy, the guy who murdered Sir David Amos, right, He had a list of I don't know how many politicians, some women, some men for. We know this guy may have.

[Corey]

I think. I think there's something particularly galling for a certain type of extreme weirdo, which is clearly what he is. And that's as well as a.

[Ian]

Well, any psychopath, anybody that carries out that kind of offense, you have to describe as an extreme weirdo because they're not normal. No normal person would even think of doing something like that.

[Corey]

Just statistically, we know that, you know, women are vulnerable to male attacks and violence has been on the up. Violence against women, particularly on the up, while other crimes have fallen, despite what reform says.

[Ian]

On the face of it, this was an extreme left winger who wanted to kill someone he saw as a right

[Corey]

winger, and he chose an old woman.

[Ian]

Well, we don't know whether there were other people that were on a list or anything. So, I mean, let's stop this here, because it's ridiculous. You've introduced this gender element with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

[Corey]

I was interested by that thought. From a woman of an equivalent age and stage in life, Yasmine, who gets a lot of threats.

[Ian]

Unfortunately, yes, she absolutely does.

[Corey]

Anyway, they were very much also buying your book.

[Ian]

I should hope so. That was the whole point of the event.

[Corey]

I know. Well, I took my PhD professor with his wife and I'd already snapped at them. I didn't mean to, but it was because I arrived and it was very, very hot. And I said, I do get a bit angry with the older generation sometimes because I think that they don't own enough of the climate change problem. And I said to, I said to Paul, really humble Valerie, who's a lovely woman, I said, this unbearable heat is terrifying. And rather than doing the Alastair Campbell, yeah, we've fucked the planet. That's not really Valerie's style, to be honest. She's Emetus professor of English. She went, well, it was terribly hot in 1976. And I said, valerie, that is a right wing meme. I expect more from you than that. And then I felt guilty for the rest of the lunch. And then I took them into a casino for a book launch and they looked like fish out of water. I said, I'm so sorry, I didn't, didn't realize I was in a casino.

[Ian]

Yes, you did.

[Corey]

I didn't. I didn't know the Hippodrome. I didn't put the two and two together. And then I said, and by the way, when I gave them their modest tonic water, I said, and now you have to buy a book like this. Literally commanded them to the bookstore.

[Ian]

I mean, I don't know where to start, frankly. You think the. If you mention the 1976 hot summer, which you were about 3, 2 and

[Corey]

it's the only year I've had a suntan in because Mum forgot me on the. In the playpen.

[Ian]

You think it's a right wing meme to mention that? Are you mad?

[Corey]

No, I'm not mad. And I think lots of our more liberal and sensitive listeners will understand.

[Ian]

Yeah. It is a quiz question for you.

[Corey]

Yeah.

[Ian]

What did the Labour government do to combat the hot summer of 1976?

[Corey]

Free ice cream?

[Ian]

No. They appointed Dennis Howell MP as Minister for Drought and he was supposed to, I think, do a rain dance to encourage it to rain. No.

[Corey]

Long time planning then?

[Ian]

No, but I mean, it's interesting because we don't hear a lot of talk about that at the moment. We hear a lot about the hot weather and all the rest of it, but we're not hearing much about a drastic drought. The parks are still green. In 1976, there wasn't a blade of green grass really anywhere.

[Corey]

We're only at the beginning of July, middle of June.

[Ian]

Well, that is true, but I don't feel that so far this is on that scale.

[Corey]

Interestingly, I think it's worse. And what's.

[Ian]

How would you know? You didn't live through it.

[Corey]

I did. We've established I got a sunburn.

[Ian]

You were three, you don't remember it?

[Corey]

Two. And also I'd like to point out that if you look, it's about patterns. So while Valerie was remembering, had a memory of 76. What the difference is record breaking heat and heat waves and wildfires in 2020, 2021, 2022 took us up to 40 degrees heat last year, taking us up to. Plus the 35s and beyond.

[Ian]

I'm switching off again.

[Corey]

You see, that's the problem, Corey. You see, I'm trying to be nice to in this week because this is autobiography week. Anyway, it's important. I think it's been a big week and it's, it's. It was also, I think, didn't mean to get away from the. The tragedy of Anne's death. I just thought to say it was just Yasmin made me think about it differently. She cast it through a different prison.

[Ian]

Well, I think it is interesting that she had an appeal across politics, which I think that has emerged this week and I'm glad that's emerged because she was a very tribalist politician. Even though she defected from the tribe, she.

[Corey]

She joined another tribe.

[Ian]

Yeah, she's still seen as part of the Conservative family. And Kemi Badenok and I exchanged quite a few texts over the weekend because she didn't know her and she'd seen a few things I did on television and wanted to know a bit more about her. Because it's actually very important that political leaders get the tone right when they're trying to pay tribute to someone that they didn't actually know very well. And I think she achieved that.

[Corey]

My friend took issue with Keir Starmer's tribute, saying we disagree politically. They said, why do politicians always need to say that? Why can't you just say you're really sad someone's died?

[Ian]

I feel for politicians in this way because, I mean, Anne Widecombe was not somebody that most people on the Labour benches would have wanted to pay tribute to in any shape or form. And if her death had been just a death, a natural death, that wouldn't have been this kind of sort of outpouring of emotion. And sometimes it's very difficult to think of anything original to say, circumstances and it's sort of thoughts with the family and friends, blah, blah, blah. And if you didn't know the person, it's quite difficult to go beyond that.

[Corey]

I'd seen her a few weeks earlier in the Green Room and she. I know she was old, but she was robust. She was a robust old person. And having said goodbye to a lot of old people, they have a certain thing that, you know, when the light's gonna go out, there's a sort of fade button.

[Ian]

I think the thing with her was that she was robust mentally and, I mean, all her faculties were still there physically. She's always been a little bit frail. She's always been sort of quite stooped and she had a few sort of spinal problems and she has had health problems over the years, so. But I. I mean, the thing which I can't get out of my head is, I mean, she was found laying on the kitchen floor. You think what went on.

[Corey]

I know, I know. I don't like the thing of that

[Ian]

either, when I'm absolutely sure she would have fought as hard as she could.

[Corey]

But that's what we love about Anthony.

[Ian]

Anyone now, doesn't matter whether they're politicians, ex politicians or anybody in the public eye. Some people see them as fair game and we see it on social media all the time. And, I mean, you can imagine what I've had doing all of this media on Anne's death, sort of. I've been accused of profiteering from it. And I said, you think I would actually take money for talking about Anne Widecombe's death? If I get paid anything for any of these interviews, it goes straight to one of Anne Widecombe's dog sanctuary charities. I mean, the very thought that people could even think that, no, donkey, not dog, Sorry. Or cats. Yes, you're absolutely right. But the motivations that people ascribe to you, and then if you don't counter them, they spread like wildfire. So you have to counteract it. And people say, well, you should ignore all of this. Well, it's not easy to ignore it when people are accusing you of.

[Corey]

Of. What's interesting is that quite a lot of research into all the threats that go on online, and apparently almost all of them don't lead to anything. But what I think they do is they set a mood music, a tone that then means the most, slash, vulnerable, slash, psychopathic, slash, whatever, are triggered into acting in this abhorrent way, whether it's an Axel Ruder cabana or, you know, there's this different extreme versions of violence, but I think the threats, which I think engulf the police and they're overwhelmed by the number of these online threats, but it's that they do. They have pitched our national conversation into a different space. And I think that's what's been.

[Ian]

But I think also what has changed is that I used to say that person would never say it to my face. Whereas now I think they would. I absolutely do. I think if I encountered one of these people in the street, they would actually come up to me and say exactly what they said on social media.

[Corey]

Your slight shield not saying it is a shield because we know everyone's vulnerable, is that you are a six foot something man. I mean, you are, you know, you could as, as we, I think we know that you can stick up for yourself physically sometimes. Ian, just to end on a lighter

[Ian]

note, I don't know what you're referring to. On that note, look, we will be back on. I mean, we haven't really talked about Andy Burnham, but of course, Monday, when we record our next podcast will be the day that he descends from the north and shit.

[Corey]

Ian, you're on the radio in a minute.

[Ian]

I'm on the radio precisely 17 minutes.

[Corey]

God Almighty. Just cut the pod now. I mean, don't cut it, but, you know, end it. We love you all and Ian and

[Ian]

I, and we haven't done any questions today, but we will do hopefully on Monday, where politics meets historylobal.com or leave a message on the Instagram page. And more importantly, buy my book. Have I said too much? If you want a signed copy, I'll give you a personal inscription. Cut back Corey politico's.co.uk Goodbye. This has been a global production.