144. Here We Go Again

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Where Politics Meets History | Episode 144: "Here We Go Again"

Host: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop
Date: July 21, 2026
Duration: ~58 minutes

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Episode Overview

In this timely episode, broadcaster Iain Dale and historian Dr. Tessa Dunlop dissect the latest seismic changes in the UK political landscape: the arrival of Andy Burnham as Prime Minister, the scramble over cabinet appointments, and what all this means in a historical context. With trademark wit and sharp analysis, they debate the significance of frequent prime ministerial turnover, the meaning of integrity in politics, the complexities of Downing Street as both symbol and working space, and ponder whether Britain’s past can illuminate its political future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cabinet Chaos and Burnham’s Debut

• Rolling reshuffle: The episode opens amid live reshuffle speculation, with ongoing updates filtering in as Dale and Dunlop record.
• John Healey’s integrity: Dunlop praises newly resigned Defense Secretary John Healey for "flagging his integrity" (00:11), contrasting him favorably to those seeking the appearance of virtue.
• Andy Burnham’s challenge: Both hosts debate whether Burnham, perceived as a stronger communicator than Starmer, actually has a plan to unite the country ("Either he has got a plan which none of us know about, but he does... Or he hasn’t, and it’s going to become apparent pretty quickly." – Iain Dale, 09:59).
• Regional divides: Burnham’s perceived northern bias and skepticism toward the south are discussed (10:06), with Dunlop reminding that Labour’s heartlands now include large swathes of the South.

2. The Nature of Modern Political Leadership

• Seven PMs in 10 years: Iain Dale reframes rapid turnover not as democratic failure, but as evidence of a functioning system where parliament "gets rid of" unpopular or untrusted leaders without violence (05:48).

  "It proves exactly the opposite. It proves that our parliamentary democracy does work..." – Iain Dale (05:48)

• Declining respect and growing hate: Both critique the "hating of politicians" as toxic and relate it to recent violence in politics, agreeing it "must be got out of our system" (07:42).
• Social media's role: Dunlop argues the environment is more about clickbait and mob influence than dignified parliamentary process (06:24).

3. Civil Service, IDs, and Practical Reforms

• Digital IDs canceled: Both discuss the implications of canceling digital ID cards ("They caught it probably at the right time... But we are now in 2026, not 2010..." – Dale, 17:22), acknowledging the long-term inevitability of digital verification but recognizing short-term budgeting realities (15:16-17:22).
• Hotel bureaucracy: Anecdotes about photo ID demands at hotels highlight the everyday friction without digital IDs (15:31).

4. Downing Street: Symbol, Status, and History

• Historical deep dive: Dunlop shares a spirited recounting on the origins, architecture, and symbolic meaning of Downing Street (29:08–44:00).
  • Constructed in the late 17th century by Sir George Downing, becoming the official residence of the Prime Minister with Sir Robert Walpole in 1735.
  • Origins as a cul-de-sac built on a bog, subject to periodic flooding, and haphazard expansion/remodeling.
• Prestige and symbolism: They sharply compare 10 Downing Street with other world leaders’ residences ("Why is it that our Prime Minister is shoved up into a crappy little flat at the top of a table?" – Tessa Dunlop, 37:24). Both agree on its unique national and international symbolism despite its "lo-fi" practicality.
• Security and access: Discussion on the iron railings, their origins in IRA threats, and why they remain in place (34:18-35:12).

5. Class, Accents & Media Roles in Politics

• James Purnell’s biography: Examination of Andy Burnham’s new Chief of Staff, his career, and his personal journey from France to Guildford to Oxford ("I think the Chief of Staff position is possibly the most crucial in Downing Street..." – Iain Dale, 20:56).
• Class identity: Dunlop notes the tendency of middle-class politicians to identify as working-class, citing Burnham, Starmer, and Purnell as key examples (22:16).

6. The Gender Lens and Political Commentary

• Debate over compliments and emphasis on appearance—whether describing male or female ministers—is explored with input from listeners, challenging double standards in commentary (50:06–50:54).

7. The Vocabulary Quiz: Levity & Learning

• In a lighthearted ending, Dunlop quizzes Dale on "classic" words picked up from F. Scott Fitzgerald, with both ribbing each other over usage

  "Celerity means speed... Why not just say speed?" – Iain Dale (46:00)

• An onanistic, centripetal in-joke reveals their shared sense of humor on words, with genial argument over definitions (47:29–48:32).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's about a sort of devalued, clickbait environment... If you click enough and say you hate Keir Starmer..." – Dr. Tessa Dunlop (06:24)
• "I am thinking of somebody who I do despise, shall we say..." – Iain Dale teasing political disdain (08:10)
• "People will think of this moment as a democratic outrage. It isn't, but people will still see it like that..." – Iain Dale (52:13)
• "Downing Street always attracted dramatic, violent outbreaks... Yet we could amble along it." – Tessa Dunlop (33:19)
• "Why is it that our Prime Minister is shoved up in a crappy little flat at the top of a table?" – Tessa Dunlop (37:24)
• "Everyone knows number 10... If you went on the street anywhere, 10 Downing Street would be one of their five." – Iain Dale (42:33)
• "This podcast is onanistic, Corey." – Tessa Dunlop, as the vocabulary banter escalates (48:07)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:10 – Burnham era begins, cabinet speculation, John Healey’s integrity
• 03:24 – Enthusiasm/doubt about Andy Burnham as PM
• 05:48 – The meaning of PM turnover, reframing “democratic failure”
• 08:43 – Cabinet news breaks mid-podcast
• 10:06 – Regional divides and Labour’s challenge in the South
• 15:04–17:22 – Digital ID cards, civil liberties, practical anecdotes
• 29:08–44:00 – Downing Street: history, symbolism, security, renovation stories
• 50:00 – Listener questions: Gender double standards in political commentary
• 45:45–49:22 – Vocabulary quiz, literary banter, sexual innuendo, podcast self-mockery
• 56:13–58:00 – Football and cultural questions, lighthearted close

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Summary & Takeaways

This episode delivers a lively, historically informed, and sometimes irreverent look at Britain’s changing leadership and the institutions that prop them up. With ongoing political news breaking throughout, Dale and Dunlop skillfully balance sharp analysis with humor and historical anecdote. They illuminate how today’s headlines echo the past and raise nuanced questions on leadership integrity, systemic change, and the paradoxes of Britain’s political traditions.

For listeners seeking political context, media insight, or just a smart, entertaining debate, this episode offers both rigor and laughs.

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Transcript

[A]

This is a global production.

[B]

John Healey, Chancellor. He will then have to find the money for defence. The job that he resigned over.

[A]

Isn't that interesting? That John Healy, who I think everyone thought looks more like a backroom boy, there's something quite discreet about him. He's unshowy, he's industrious. I think what he did there by resigning a brief that he clearly loved, is he flagged his integrity. And I think that Andy Burnham is desperately trying to reel in integrity.

[B]

So Jackie Smith, Chancellor of the Exchequer. Who'd have thought?

[A]

I can't wait. I mean, she'll be able to drip feed and I'll get my Romanian GCSE within one week. And guess what? We've got an English graduate in number 10, which means that we need to improve our word, Smithery. We need to become more loquacious. We need to start talking in perfect sentences. So I've got a little word quiz for you at the end of the show. New words that I've gleaned from my reading of the classics over the weekend.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

I only read one, but that was.

[B]

I don't think I've actually ever read a classic.

[A]

Well, do you consider Scott Fitzgerald? He's American. Turn of the century. Of last century, that is not the most recent one. I was blown away by his writing. Tender Is the Night. It spoke to me on so many levels.

[B]

I've heard of it.

[A]

You've never read it?

[B]

No.

[A]

I think you'd enjoy it and I think it would increase your.

[B]

I've read Animal Farm, that. That would be considered classic, wouldn't it?

[A]

But I don't think it's. He's. George Orwell was more a sort of political animal. A commentaria. An early version of the commentariat, I think. I mean, I know they do 1984 and stuff in the A level syllabus, but in terms of a deep dive, you know, plunging into a deep, dark pool of wonderful English words, American and British, I think you have to go further back and you have to become more refined.

[B]

I don't know why it is, but I've never had any interest in reading like Thomas Hardy or Charles Dickens. I just never have.

[A]

Right, can we cut that bit out, Corey? Because I really think it might be quite off putting for more of our cerebral listeners.

[B]

We have lots of shallow listeners too, who. Shallow is me.

[A]

Well, anyway, I've got two sexual words for you in my expanded vocabulary.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. You wait for them.

[B]

I'm sure I know what they are.

[A]

I'm sure I'm sure they'll be the only ones you know the meaning of.

[B]

If I seem a little less than. Less than at the top of my game.

[A]

I know why. I know why. It's because you're a bit jealous of Andy, isn't it?

[B]

Jealous of Andy? Yeah, right. No, it's because I've almost gone blind in my right eye. Okay. To which you won't know how to respond to that. No. Due to your lack of emotional intelligence.

[A]

I do have emotional intelligence. I just choose not to share it on the hard because it takes too long. Empathy's so long.

[B]

No, but you see, older POD listeners will remember the first time this happened to me four years ago, and it happened on Sunday. I woke up and I couldn't see out of my right eye and I still can't. Well, I can. I. If I cover my left eye, I can see there's a person opposite me, but I don't know, it's you. Actually. Maybe I should do the podcast like that all the time.

[A]

You're such a little. Well, when Andy comes back through that revolving door that is Downing street and I'm going to tell him there's a warm seat for my new friend from up north.

[B]

Do you feel excited by the prospect of an Andy Burnham premiership?

[A]

No.

[B]

Why? Because I do a little.

[A]

That's because you are a political bottom feeder. You're like the mackerel in the sea. You go along and you love sucking up the tit bits and the detritus and chewing over the gossip. And today there is abundant gossip as we speak. The news rollif, doesn't it?

[B]

Well, we're recording this at half past four, so we're expecting to get cabinet appoint way of recording and Corey is going to bring them to us in the unique way that only he knows how.

[A]

Rachel Reeves is already out once we started recording on it. Lammy's out, Peter Kyler's out. That attack. Yeah, that one's out. That's where we're at at the moment on that page. But I've also done something of a deep dive into the devalued address that is Downing street. Because I don't know about you, Ian, but watching the rolling news this morning, I felt.

[B]

Is this part of your let's do Down Britain campaign?

[A]

No, it's. It's part of the historical backdrop. But I felt Chris Mason, who's the BBC's political commentator, editor, whatever, that one was slightly over egging the pudding. He was like bigging up this office and then every so often you saw A still of Liz Truss standing in front of number 10. But it was quite hard to get to.

[B]

I mean, what do you expect a political editor to do on a day that the Prime Minister changes? I know there's all this thing about, oh, we've had seven in 10 years. Isn't it terrible? And we've talked about that before, but the fact is, it is a momentous day when you have a new Prime Minister because things do change. Things should change. Because if they don't, what was the point of it all?

[A]

Well, indeed. But when something happens so often, it becomes routine. And therefore, no matter how superlative Chris Mason was. And a very good vocabulary, by the way. Was he too an English graduate? I feel sure he was Oxbridge. But anyway, that to one side, I

[B]

did think he came from Skipton in Yorkshire.

[A]

Well, he might have done, but I want to know where he finished his education. Okay, the end point. Andy ended up in Cambridge. No matter how much Andy tells us he's northern, he ended up in Cambridge. Anyway, I felt that it was a bit like Emperor's New Clothes, because we've seen it so often.

[B]

So what? So what?

[A]

Well, I think so. We. We realize he's holding on to the vase at the moment, but how long is the vase going to be in his.

[B]

Well, it's entirely down to him. You see, I don't buy this stuff, that this having seven prime ministers in 10 years. Who was I reading this morning? I can't remember saying, well, this proves that our democracy doesn't work. And I'm thinking, no, no, it proves exactly the opposite. It proves that our parliamentary democracy does work because when Parliament loses confidence in a Prime Minister, we get rid of that Prime Minister. It's not done by sort of shooting them or assassinating them like it is in many other countries. There is a system and it does work.

[A]

Ian, I have to challenge you there.

[B]

Of course you do.

[A]

It's about a sort of devalued, clickbait environment where it wasn't that Parliament thought Keir Starmer couldn't do the job. It was that they thought he was unpopular and the great demos weren't going to vote them back in in three years.

[B]

Exactly. So people power effectively did get rid of him. You're making my case for me, if I may say so, but in a

[A]

really sort of devalued way, because now it's almost become like direct democracy. You cut out the middle people. If you click enough and say you hate Keir Starmer. I was really gratified, actually, and Heartened to hear Boris Johnson at the weekend tell Trevor Phillips that he couldn't really understand all this hate for Keir Starmer. Now, if there's anyone who has skin in the game and a reason to resent Starmer, you could argue it's Boris Johnson, because the labor man decried Boris continually. But actually, I thought he was bang on the money. It still leaves me baffled as we had, why we had to have so much hate. And I think the tenor of that, the tenor of that debate and the tenor of our conversation leads to atrocities. And we've talked a great deal about the most recent, the tragic death of Anne. I just don't. I want to eliminate with Andy. I'm not yet converted to Andy, but I'm not gonna stomach hearing the word hate. I'm just not having it anymore.

[B]

Well, good, because you're right in that respect that this, this hating of politicians is something that we've got to get out of our system. Because, I mean, I can't. I mean, I. There are one or two politicians that I have very little respect for and I is loathe the same as hate.

[A]

I don't think either are acceptable unless they personally did something to me.

[B]

I am thinking of somebody who I do despise, shall we say.

[A]

Is there a personal reason for it?

[B]

No. It's because of what this person has said and what this person stands for. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna name him. I mean, we have.

[A]

Can you. At the end of the pod.

[B]

No.

[A]

If someone slogs through this whole pod and listens to an entire hour, you're not even gonna give.

[B]

Well, it's somebody that I. I used to have a modicum of respect for. But because of the way that their political career has moved and because of things that they've said that are quite incendiary, I can't sort of avoid saying that. I know who it is. Corey. Corey.

[A]

Corey. Oh, that means that Corey has breaking news on who is in cabinet.

[B]

Richard Hermer is out as Attorney General. Thank God for that.

[A]

God, I was more.

[B]

Just rejoice at that news.

[A]

That means nothing to me. I was way more excited.

[B]

He's the one that is behind the Chagos deal.

[A]

Okay, well, good. That's good that he's gone. They're doing everything they can to mosey up to Trump. Have you noticed? We'll drill in the North Sea?

[B]

I mean, Andy Burnham's already talked to Trump.

[A]

Of course he has.

[B]

It was his first call.

[A]

Of course it was. But back to the fact I think the person you loathe is Robert Jenrick, correct? Yes. No need to listen to the rest. No, stay with us, please stay with us. I promise I'll behave and be nice to Ian. Break, please.

[B]

Now, you are going to do your deep dive into Downing Street a little bit later in the podcast, but let's, before we do that, let's have a little chat about where we see this Burnham government going. Because I think it's going to go in one of two directions. Either he has got a plan which none of us know about, but he does and we're soon going to find out what it is. And they have been dripping out a few little announcements. It's very funny. I said to John the day before yesterday, I said, oh, they've announced that they're cancelling the digital ID cards. He said, oh, that's interesting. I thought they were just cancelling the whole of the south of England. And I'm thinking that is interesting because John is not a political animal, but he's picked up that Andy Burnham is seen as a bit anti South.

[A]

Well, I know, and it's interesting because a lot of the Labour heartlands these days are in the south.

[B]

I'm not sure I'd say heartland. Well, they did win, they did win a lot of seats in the south.

[A]

They did.

[B]

Mainly because reform took votes off the Conservatives.

[A]

But somehow that word Islington has been, has become synonymous with metropolitan elite city centers where a lot are labor. Cambridge, for example, Oxford, North London. And if they feel they're unloved or unwanted, there's plenty other places they can go nowadays.

[B]

Chris Mason was educated at Emmerston Grammar School, Skipton, North Yorkshire and Christchurch College, Cambridge.

[A]

Told you. And Beth Rigby, also Cambridge.

[B]

And Corey Froggart, also Cambridge.

[A]

Yeah. Come on, Corey, what are you doing slumming it on this pod, eh? You should be out there with the best of them, I've got to say. And this led me down the Downing street alley, or cul de sac as it originally was. I felt there was this extraordinary disparity between the eye popping opulence of Buckingham Palace. Uninhabited.

[B]

Are we going to Downing Street?

[A]

No, we're talking about the present day. We're going to. But I'm teeing you up into the Andy deep dive in the Chinese drawing room and the King in a very expensive suit and these sort of little politicians coming in to shake his hand. And I know it's all about humbling the politician, but given that we want better, bigger politicians, they then sort of rush back to Downing street, which I always think is a bit. It's sort of a bit lo fi. And there's not even now Andy's choice, the pulpit to stand in front of.

[B]

And yeah, I didn't think that worked well.

[A]

And he clearly learned the speech off by heart, like a schoolboy. Clearly recited it in front of the mirror for three hours yesterday.

[B]

It was too hesitating. He. I mean, I get why he did it. It was supposed to symbolize there's no gap between me and you. I'm one of you. Well, I mean, okay, he's. He's sort of fiddled that flute. No, not fiddle that flute. He's played. It's becoming a bit of a tiresome actor, I think. And it wasn't a fluent speech. It didn't really say anything that he hadn't said before. And then, I don't think. And bear in mind, I was on the train back from North Devon, so the Internet was. I mean, Great Western Railways, for fuck's sake, improve your Internet. So I didn't get all of it, but I didn't. Well, was there a where there is discord, maybe we bring harmony moment in it? I don't think there was.

[A]

I didn't hear that. I took away that he's going to eradicate homelessness, something. The one thing he didn't really manage to do in Manchester, incidentally, that he's going to address the mental health of young people and he's going to come up with a few more announcements tomorrow. I've got to say, for this man who really has been given the gig because he's a better communicator, that's the. The key complaint of Starmer is failure to deliver the message. We could have done with like a. A kind of spontaneous joke, almost something like built in. Not a haha bonk moment. But I wanted a little bit of a turn of phrase, levity, and there was none.

[B]

I wanted a bit of Peggy Noonan. Do you know what I mean by that? Peggy Noonan was Ronald Reagan's speechwriter and she came up with all sorts of different phrases. Like when the Challenger space shuttle went down, they slipped the surly bonds of Earth to touch the face of God. She was quoting from somebody else on that, but it was just the perfect phrase to use in that moment. And it was one of Reagan's most famous sort of phrases and there were quite a lot of those. So I think it's a shame that he didn't do that in a way, because as I say, it's a Day that does go down in history when a Prime Minister changes. And we've done a little montage, or Chris has done it for tonight, three minutes of every new Prime Minister's something they said in their speech outside Downing street on their first day in office. And most of them have come up with a reasonably memorable phrase. Not all, but most. It doesn't surprise me. Liz Kendall is out as Science Secretariat. I think she's very much seen as sort of a bit from the past. She's a lovely, lovely, lovely person, but I don't think she was ever very effective as a minister.

[A]

Okay. Just the optics around getting rid of a woman.

[B]

Well, hang on. Most of the others are men that they've got rid of.

[A]

Sure. But that.

[B]

That doesn't seem to concern you.

[A]

Other women will be feeling safe or safer. Liz Kendall, of course, was big in this move to outlaw social media for teenagers. And I wonder where that leaves what had suddenly become Keir Starmer's legacy policy.

[B]

Well, there's all sorts of things like that. I mean, you're right, that is something that I think is now up for. Up for debate. The other one, of course, is jury trials. Now, if I was Andy Burnham, I would abolish that proposal.

[A]

The problem with abolishing too much is that every time you put a train in action or train of thought is given investment and time from the civil Service down. We all know that that consumes huge amounts of public money.

[B]

But when you get something wrong, you do need to go back and start again. And that wasn't in their manifesto. So he would have no problem in justifying getting rid of that. It would be a popular thing to do.

[A]

Digital ID cards. Already millions have been invested in that and I think eventually we're going to have to have digital ID cards, because AI and verification. If teenagers aren't allowed to go on Instagram, how do they prove how old they are if they don't have a passport?

[B]

You know, when I booked into the hotel near Paddington on Saturday, they said, you have photo id? I usually stay in a Hilton Hotel because they're often the cheap one. About the cheapest. But I've got a loyalty program with them, so I'm a Diamond member.

[A]

Oh, gee.

[B]

And cool, because I say that quite often. So they said, do you have photo id? I said, no. Do you have any form of id? I said, no. Why do I need id? I said, you've got me down as a Diamond member. What? Well, it's just we have to have identification. I said, well, I haven't got any because I didn't have my wallet with me. I said, I've got my phone, which has got Apple Pay on it, that ought to suffice. I said, here's a picture of me an hour ago, a Richmond Theatre hosting an event. You can see it's me. And eventually they decided that would be enough.

[A]

But that is why I think the ID card needs to come in and the sooner the better, because you should be able to flash that up on your telephone and you shouldn't need to carry a passport or a driving license. I lost my driving license three months ago because it literally flew out of my wallet. So much dust, every time I open the zip out, it sprays and I actually.

[B]

No wonder you always say you're so poor.

[A]

But I. It did cost £20 to get it redone and it was so complicated, sticking my electronic passport into the. Feeding it into the computer, that I had to get Mara to do it and bribe her 10 quid to help me. So the whole thing ended up ratcheted to 30 by the end. You know teenagers these days. She said, if you don't pay me, I'll be a neet. I was like, all right, whatever. You know, you know, we can't do anything for. For nothing now, Mum, because then, unless you're officially training me, I would be a neat. This is her pushback at everything. The upshot is saving on the digital ID cards saves him a bit of money right now, but in the long term, it's not a good investment of our time or money pulling something that's already semi developed. I think we should be carrying.

[B]

Well, to be fair, I don't think it's semi developed. I don't think it's even a quarter developed. I think it. They've caught it probably at the right time. I mean, I've never thought ID cards were a very good thing, but I completely accept that we are now 2026, not 2010, when Cameron rolled back Jackie Smith's legislation on ID cards. I still have a bit of an issue with the civil liberties side of it.

[A]

Ian, where are your liberties when you're trying to get into a hotel you pay for?

[B]

This is where you're right wing and I'm a bit of a lefty on

[A]

this, but if the Hotel Hilton had said, I'm really sorry, we don't let anyone into a room without id, where's your liberties then?

[B]

Well, they would have done, believe me.

[A]

Only because you're 6 foot 5. Going back to an earlier thought from last week, about, you know, you feeling under threat. Because I was indiscreet on the pod about where you lived. We got a lot of response, by the way, from our conversation about Anne Widdicombe and the attack and whether there was also this element of misogyny involved in it. You know, it was definitely male violence against a woman and totally split. It's fascinating how we seem to have rather like our pod itself, we attract.

[B]

I don't think that's surprising. I mean, you were just wrong.

[A]

No, but a lot of people thought you were wrong. And it's gratifying to know that half the people listening.

[B]

Well, that that man, the suspect that's been held, he has to be charged this evening, I think.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that'll be interesting, because I'm slightly surprised that he hasn't been charged already.

[A]

It's surprising. I was expecting it to drop in the weekend.

[B]

So you sort of wonder what's going on there. But anyway, we better not speculate. So we still haven't got any actual appointments to Anti Burnham's cabinet. But do you share my slight fear that he doesn't quite have the plan ready?

[A]

Well, we know that he wanted to prevaricate over the entire summer and this has come sooner than he wanted it. Ideally, I think he'd have wanted a soft challenger, somebody who would have given him a chance to get his profile up. Interesting polling around those who don't actually know who Andy Burnham is, by the way, because he hasn't had the coronation contest. A lot of Britain who aren't heavily engaged in politics and don't come from Manchester or the hinterlands around Manchester actually might be a little bit nonplussed, even confused, particularly. I'm thinking of the other nations, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland. What does Andy Burnham mean to them? You've already mentioned that your Southern John is a bit like, he doesn't care about me. He's got his work cut out. And as soon as he goes in that door, he's already started making enemies, hasn't he? Because all we've heard is the people he sacked.

[B]

And the thing is, when you say sacked, you see, this is where I think we have to be a bit careful, because people are talking about this reshuffle. It's not a reshuffle, it's a new government. And even in a year's time, when he reshuffles his team, that will be a shuffle. This is the formation of the government. So, yes, there are people that won't be in this government that were in the last but technically they haven't been sacked because when one government finishes, you have to hand in your seals of office and then another one starts.

[A]

Is it a new government? Because a Prime Minister is a first among equals and this is still a Labour executive.

[B]

The King has asked me to form a government, so therefore it is a new government.

[A]

Okay. It's interesting that though, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's dancing on the head of a pin. I completely accept that. But if we're going to get the terminology. I can't even say the word exactly right. It's not a reshuffle, it's a formation of a cabinet.

[A]

James Parnell is his right hand man. Tell me how important this Chief of Staff is.

[B]

I think the Chief of Staff position is possibly the most crucial in Downing street because effectively you are the Prime Minister's gatekeeper. Your desk is outside his office. You decide who's going to see him. You control his diary. And it really is controlling because the Prime Minister himself can obviously say, well, I want to see this person. And then you arrange it. But it's you that constructs most of his diary. It's an absolutely crucial position and you are responsible effectively for a lot of the liaising with foreign governments. You are the head of Friedrich Merz's office in the Bundeskanzler Rei in Berlin. He would ring James Purnell if he, if the two, if the two prime two leaders were going to have a chat for each other.

[A]

I didn't realize that Purnell grew up a large part of childhood in France until his parents divorced and he comes back to live in Guildford with his mother and sister. I think when he's a teenager, goes to a private school in Guildford. So there was some money, even though the mother was the daughter of a postmaster and really held on to that idea of being working class. There's really interesting, by the way, research to show that middle class people who have long since migrated from their working class roots still keenly identify as working class.

[B]

Keir Starmer is the ultimate example.

[A]

Andy Burnham.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And James Purnell's mother, but Francie Burnham.

[B]

It's easier because he's kept the accent.

[A]

Accent slide.

[B]

Oh, no, it's more than slide.

[A]

But it's not. But accent isn't. It should never be the ultimate metric, by which we judge. No, because you can have a strong regional accent. Most people in Scotland have a Scottish accent.

[B]

It's not the only metric, but it is one. And I think Southerners tend to regard people with a Northwest accent as working class, even though a lot of them aren't.

[A]

Yeah. And. But there's a horrible naivety to it, because in Scotland, they always think of Scotland as quite classless, or at least the Scottish accent is classless, and it's far from it. If you know your Scottish accents, I can tell you people with a Scottish accent who are way more terrifyingly feudal and aristocratic than anything my family masqueraded as. As factors on an aristocrat's land. There's a sort of classy Scottish bur. They kind of, you know, and they. Colton Hill. They kind of speak in a. Also, it's drawn out, but it's drawn out in a different way. Anyway, I digress. Andy Burnham will have to go north of the border. I mean, I wonder if these things will happen in the next week or so.

[B]

Well, if he. If he or his team have got any sense, they will construct the government tonight. They'll do all the Cabinet tonight. They'll do Ministers of State tomorrow morning and probably afternoon as well. I don't actually think there'll be a huge churn in the junior ministerial positions. There will be some new ones, there will be some departures, but I don't expect it to be more than, say, 20 or 30%. That goes. So then he should be going to Edinburgh, to Belfast, to Cardiff and spend a couple of days doing that. Because it is important that a UK Prime Minister is seen as Prime Minister of the whole uk, not just England.

[A]

Because I would agree. At the moment, I think one of his defining characteristics is his Englishness.

[B]

No, it's. No, it's not. It's his Manchester ness.

[A]

Well, you say that, but if you're in Scotland, you're thinking more English.

[B]

I'm not sure. Is that right? I will bow to your superior knowledge, but I would have thought that even in Scotland, it's not Englishness that's the problem, it's Northwest Englishness.

[A]

No, I think they just will think of him as English.

[B]

Just back to, what does Scots want, then? A Scottish First Minister and a Scottish Prime Minister.

[A]

Not saying that, but it's just because he's never. It's interesting.

[B]

I mean, after that disgraceful lack of support for England during the World cup, they can fuck off.

[A]

I've got some messaging about that as well, actually, from an Italian perspective. But if we could just go briefly back to James Parnell, because I was really interested by his fluent French speaker, so maybe he's good for that international aspect of, you know, having to liaise with foreign governments. He Played with Andy Burnham in the New Labour football team 30 some 30 odd years ago. He went to Oxford, Burnham went to Cambridge, he studied ppe. James Parnell got a first like, he's a bright boy. Always stood out at his Guildford grammar school for his French clothes that he wore and having a slightly alternative style. He's a bit of a spiv, you know, he's quite kind of smooth, I think. Very much oozing charm. What is, what's that expression? Oozing charm from every pore. He oiled his way across the floor. That to me is James Parnell.

[B]

There is a bit of that. He's. He's part of the sort of Ed Vaisy set, if I can put it

[A]

that way, but of the Labor.

[B]

Yeah. Very sort of media friendly, media savvy. He's obviously worked for the BBC for quite a long time. He's a good upward manager. His political career ended in complete failure when he resigned from Gordon Brown's cabinet in June 2009.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because he thought that Gordon Brown wasn't the right man to be Prime Minister and he thought that he would lead the charge and David Miliband and others would follow and they didn't. So it's the night of the European election results in 2009 and I remember I was actually doing a program for Play Radio that night and this news came through and everyone was sort of thinking, oh, does this mean that Gordon Brown's going to go? Well, it didn't. So he completely and utterly misjudged the moment there. And that probably taught him an awful lot. And he's then disappeared from view for quite some time. As I say, he had various positions in the BBC. He was head of BBC Radio, I think for a time. Then was he head of BBC Sounds? Oh, he's been around the BBC for quite a long time. So it's a bit. And then he joined Flint Global, which is a big international public relations consultancy which Jackie used to be a consultant to.

[A]

At some point somebody listening to this might just say, when do any of these buggers have a proper job?

[B]

Well, that is a legitimate point. When. I mean, if he makes David Miliband Foreign Secretary, which I think the speculation on that has died down quite a lot. But you would have somebody as Prime Minister who's never had a proper job, was basically a spad.

[A]

You mean Ed Miliband or David Miliband? You've just said David Miliband, both of them. But David Miliband's had several proper jobs since he left Government, because he's been in America on large.

[B]

But he didn't before he came into.

[A]

But he does now. So he doesn't qualify.

[B]

Well, he's been head of International Rescue. Yes, that is a proper job. Very well. Renumerated job.

[A]

Good for him.

[B]

Remunerated job. Well, I think there's something a bit weird about taking a million pounds a year from a charity. I really do.

[A]

I don't. Because in America, philanthropy is on a different scale.

[B]

That is also true, but there's something that doesn't sit well with me on that. Anyway, Ed Miliband. The same. Ed Balls. If he's brought back the same. Though he's had various occupations since he left Parliament. I think he's got to be careful about that. I'm not saying that it's wrong to have expads in your cabinet. I think you do need a bit of ideological purity sometimes, but you can go over the top. There was a time, I think, in 2009, where the leaders of all political parties, apart from Gordon Brown, had been SPADs.

[A]

Yeah, well, I rest my case. And most people who are normal in inverted commas wouldn't even know what SPAD the acronym stood for. Let's go to. To a break and then can we return? Still on the political front, but I just want to deconstruct the history of Downing Street a little bit because I think it speaks to where we place our political class and perhaps why we have such problems recruiting really good politicians.

[B]

Well, Corey has just been telling us about various other people who are out of government and apparently the rumour is that Rachel Reeves has been offered defense and has turned it down. What a strange thing that is to A, offer her it and B, for her to turn it down.

[A]

Yeah. It's not like it's going to be loads of job offers.

[B]

Mind you, given that she wouldn't give the armed forces the money they wanted, that would have been a bit of a difficult one for her to do, I think, to get the confidence of the armed forces.

[A]

Right. If we may, could you tell me when Downing street was built, who built it and when the first Prime Minister, if he was that, moved in.

[B]

It was built by Sir Arthur Downing.

[A]

Yes. Well done.

[B]

And it was built, I want to say, in the early part of the 18th century or the latter part of the 17th century.

[A]

The latter is correct. The latter part of the 17th century.

[B]

And the first Prime Minister to live there, although he wasn't called Prime Minister at the time, was Sir Robert Walpole.

[A]

You're quite right. Walpole moved into Downing street in 1735. Worth noting because there's been so much attention paid to royal property and who owns what. This is owned by the Crown, so it's still part of the Crown estate and it was originally given by the King to Warpont as a sort of grace and favour property. What's interesting, he loved being in Downing Street. His wife entertained and they were very close with the King and often had the Queen around for tea. All sorts of conviviality. But then after he moves out of office, nobody, no other Prime Minister or leading politician lives there for some 20 years.

[B]

Well, most Prime Ministers have lived there. There have been examples of ones that didn't. Harold Wilson, I don't think lived there, but I think there were quite a few in the 19th century that didn't.

[A]

Well, one of the reasons is previously politics was. It wasn't a hobby, it was a vocation. It was your duty. Some thought of it as. And therefore you had to be moneyed to be in politics, whether you were a Whig or a Tory, because that's what happens. By the end of the 1600s, you're getting the emergence of the two party system. System. So these giant aristocrats had infinitely superior homes in London. So why would they want to squat in this cul de sac which had sort of been erected out of the ashes of the original Whitehall that burnt down?

[B]

The first person to walk up Downing Street. Guess who? You have three guesses.

[A]

Shaban and Mahmood.

[B]

No.

[A]

Ed Miliband.

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, God. I've got to get this right. It's three strikes, my mouth. Let me think, let me think.

[B]

You have just mentioned him.

[A]

David Miliband.

[B]

John Healy.

[A]

John Healy.

[B]

So he's going to get one of the top three jobs. Now, we don't know which one it is yet, but wouldn't it be interesting if it was Chancellor? Because he will then have to find the money for Defence, the job that he resigned over.

[A]

Isn't that interesting, that John Healy, who I think everyone thought looks more like a backroom boy, there's something quite discreet about him. He's unshowy, he's industrious. I think what he did there by resigning a brief that he clearly loved, is he flagged his integrity. And I think that Andy Burnham is desperately trying to reel in integrity.

[B]

I think whatever he gets, whether it. I mean, could be the new Foreign Secretary.

[A]

I mean, again, that dovetails well with.

[B]

Yeah, often you go from Defense to being Foreign Secretary. Philip Hammond did that. So I wouldn't rule that Out.

[A]

But that explains why the job was going for Rachel Reeves. Seize.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Defense job swap.

[B]

Sort of. So, anyway, this is all going to be fascinating, but by the time people listen to this, they will know exactly what's happened.

[A]

Yeah. So come on, let's keep. Keep going. I just want to say that what's really interesting, because I always think of Downing street because I'm not like you. I don't get asked for drinks with prime ministers.

[B]

Nor do I.

[A]

Well, how many times have you?

[B]

Well, no, actually, to be fair, I have done, but.

[A]

Yes. You're such a wanker. How many times?

[B]

Not very often. How many times have I been into Downing Street? 20.

[A]

Yeah. I've never been in and I think that's really unfair.

[B]

Well, if I get asked again, you can be my plus one.

[A]

Thank you. Plus one can't have a name.

[B]

You can be Tessa Dale for the evening.

[A]

You. My. Even my wee brother, who's enormous, has been into Downing street. And that was before he became an smp. And his takeaway was Kirsten was really small. That's all I remember, actually.

[B]

I remember thinking that when he came to do the end of a fringe, I was thinking, what a pip squeak. Yeah, well, I know, but towered over him.

[A]

Burnham's not much taller because the King's tiny and Burnham was almost on a par with the King. They're all tiny.

[B]

I think Burnham's taller.

[A]

A little bit taller, but not considerably taller.

[B]

Should we ask Chat GPT you do

[A]

that while I tell you that Downing street used to be an open space, an open street that you could amble along. I'm sure you probably remember those days.

[B]

I remember as a child, standing in front of the number ten door.

[A]

Yeah, well, you can't do that anymore. We'll come to why. But. But interestingly, it always attracted dramatic, violent outbreaks of disorder. One of the earliest was the 18th century Gordon Riots of 1780. This was about Roman Catholic relief, I'll have you know, and a protest against it. And also they were annoyed with that ongoing war against what becomes America. But we eventually cordoned off Downing street and it kind of annoys me that it still cordoned off because it was the direct result of the provisional Iraq. And by the way, Downing street also came under attack in the Second World War. Bombs go off, Churchill's working there later, we know he's going to go to the Cabinet War Rooms, just a bit down the road underground. But the point is that it's always come under attack, whether from air or from the street. And yet we could amble along it. The liberty of. Not just the Englishman, the whole of the United Kingdom. But they've not taken those iron railings away. And I think we can fairly say that the Provisional IRA aren't the threat they once were.

[B]

No. But there are Islamist terrorists that are much more of a threat than they once were. So you. You're right. They're not going to go anywhere. Nor should they, actually.

[A]

It's really depressing how it's become more.

[B]

Well, it is depressing. I mean, they went up right at the end of Margaret Thatcher's period in office, but they didn't prevent an IRA mortar attack on John. On John Major.

[A]

That was in 1992, wasn't it?

[B]

Sometime around then.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So they're ineffective and.

[B]

Well, no, they're not ineffective at all. They keep people out of Downing Street. So therefore, I mean, if somebody wanted to hurl a mortar through a Downing street window, they can't do it. Yes. The RA one came from a lorry that was parked in Whitehall. Well, okay. Gates aren't going to help that, but I think it'd be madness to take them.

[A]

I've just remembered that Kirsten's house did get torched. Okay, rescind that. But I still think it speaks to today's world, doesn't it? There's something really depressing about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think recently we have discovered that addresses and knowledge of them can be a dangerous thing.

[B]

Measurements. Keir Starmer was 5 foot 8 and a half inches.

[A]

I don't believe that that's in his heels. I just don't believe that.

[B]

No, I think that's about right. And Andy Byrne, 5 foot 10.

[A]

10. I don't believe he's 5 foot 10.

[B]

I'm sorry, that's what it says.

[A]

But again, I bet on Chat GPT,

[B]

it must be true.

[A]

Well, no, it's not true. Okay. So what's interesting is in the 1820s, after we've got rid of Napoleon and we're feeling better about ourselves, we build heavily around Downing street, so it gets all sort of Foreign Office equivalents building around it. Because what I didn't realize is it's not just a classic street one to number 15 or something like that. It was a cul de sac. And there was never 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. They never existed. And what happens is it's badly built. It's built on a bit of a bog, because previously the Thames obviously wasn't. The Victorians were the ones. What do you call it when you put A river in. In lock, stock and barrel. When you embank a river, there was no embankments, okay. So it would regularly flood. So they had to redo all the foundations. It wasn't seen as a durable street. They knock down 12 and 13. They're sort of stumps. And then you just get these two obsolete buildings, 10 and 11, and there's quite a lot.

[B]

I don't think you've got that right.

[A]

I have got that. I've got the photos to show you.

[B]

Well, there is 9, 10, 11 and 12 Downing Street.

[A]

I've got the photos to show you where they knock down and the. And that the remnant buildings, there's 12 or 13 or something. I know what they were, were stumps and that you have 11 and 10 and maybe there was a nine.

[B]

Well, there is a nine and there is a 12.

[A]

Yes, but those have all come subsequently. They've been hugely. It was redone and then there was a. Considered. This is actually going to be with the residence of a Prime Minister. But I think more broadly is all happenstance and accident. Because why is it that the French President gets the Elyse palace, the American President gets Whitehall and you can say, oh, well, hang on a minute, Tessa, because our presidential system, we've got a king, but actually even the Spanish Prime Minister gets a fancy palace and they've got a royal family. So why is it that our Prime Minister is shoved up into a crappy little flat at the top of a table?

[B]

Can you imagine if Andy Burnham, after a year in office, was thinking, well, this number 10 is a bit shit. Let's have a brand new building and it'll cost a billion pounds. Can you imagine the outcry?

[A]

Well, it would go down very badly because they refurbished.

[B]

Wait till we find out what the cost of number 10 north is going to be. There'll be an outcry over that.

[A]

Good. And so there should be. So the bloody. Should be. Just quickly. The Downing street buildings were not periodically renovated like number 10, and soon began to show their age. Few of them would survive the 19th century. Number one, which housed the Axe and Gate pub to number nine, were demolished during the 1820s. Okay. When a new building was constructed for the Treasury. I promise I'm right. Numbers 12 and 13 at the end of the street were demolished, replaced with a stump. That was. All that remained was the ground floor. I promise you, at some stage you just get these two random.

[B]

That is right. The. The number 12, which is where Gordon Brown had his sort of like, operation, where he would sit in the middle of the floor, surrounded by people on other desks that then became, under David Cameron, the Comms office. And Andy Coulson had his office. I've been in that office well, two or three times now and that is single story and it's, it's almost like a, A. What are those things in Kent to have the hops in? What are they called?

[A]

Barrels?

[B]

No, not barrels, they're the Oast houses. It's like a. A half a circle of an oath house, but without the roof.

[A]

Right, so we've established that it's higgledy piggledy, it's not planned, it's not deliberate. Partly because the office of Prime Minister emerges through this constitutional democracy, which is ironed out after the Glorious Revolution and the arrival of William of Orange. Etc etc. Likewise, the architecture reflects the lack of planning. You could say that's one of the charms. It's like the unwritten constitution. But what's interesting is from Salisbury onwards, continually it is the home, the residence of the Prime Minister, although we'll come to the flat swap between Chancellor and Prime Minister a bit later. But From World War I it's really busy. Incidentally speaking to the change of the class of the top brass, Lloyd George's family love it. Olwyn, his daughter, thought it was really terrific living there and that's because of course, they weren't from the top draw that previous aristocrats like Salisbury had been and therefore they were rather impressed with the architecture that was number 10. Extensive refurbishment of public buildings and any money going to public servants has, unless it's the King and the extortionate refurb of Buckingham palace has always caused concern.

[B]

Well, Lloyd George loved number 10 because he could shag his secretary, but his

[A]

daughter loved it too, so it must have had good soundproof.

[B]

I. I think a lot of people who've lived there and bear in mind current Prime Ministers tend to live in number 11, the flat above number 11, because it's bigger. I mean, I and Andy Burn. It doesn't seem very clear as to whether he's actually going to live there or not, or whether he's still going to keep his main residence up north.

[A]

Well, he's going to have to do a bit of that. But just quickly I was rushing towards the public money that's been spent on Downing street because when it was totally overhauled in the wake of the Second World War, it taken a bit of a battering, courtesy of incendiaries landing in the garden and beyond. It was redone under Macmillan, who moved out and moved back in again in 1963 and the bill came to well over £2 million. And there was a considerable outcry and a lot of people said, why didn't they just flatten it? What was the point in spending all that money? And you do think similar arguments are rehearsed constantly about Westminster, which is a far bigger problem.

[B]

I think it would be quite. I mean, you could obviously flatten it and build a Prime Minister's department somewhere else, but it would be a ghastly modern glass building that wouldn't have any character at all. And there is something. There's something quite unique about number 10, and particularly when foreign visitors come and sort of go through the door. It means something. It wouldn't mean something. It's like when British Prime Ministers to go and visit the German Chancellor. Can you remember what the. What the outside of the Bundeskanzerai looks like? I can't.

[A]

Is that because I'm not German? I mean, do you think that the weight.

[B]

Everyone knows number 10, but remember, that's

[A]

also because it was associated with the British Empire and our period of great power. I wonder if. How much damage Liz Truss has done. Anyway, let's not focus on that.

[B]

What's she got to do?

[A]

No, it's just. It's just the associate, the recent associations, the lectern. Maybe that's why he didn't want. The lectern has sort of contaminated the reputation of number 10. And also, you won't hear this, but I think recently Britain's standing. The whole Brexit clusterfu. No, but it. It's reduced our standing and that has implications on the address. The address where all these mutterings and prognostications.

[B]

The address has anything to do with Britain standing in the world. It is a symbol of British power because people know it is the home of the British Prime Minister, just as people know the Elysee is the home of the French President. It's got. I mean, if you went on the street and said to people, can you name five political residences around the world? Everyone would have 10 Downing street as one of their five.

[A]

If you ask them on a British

[B]

street, or I think if you ask them in Washington or if you were in Canberra or wherever, number 10 would be one of the five.

[A]

What's really pissed me office. I can't remember the name of the Spanish residence. And the Italians live in something like the Cheeky Cheeky palace or something.

[B]

I don't know that one either. Do you know the Australian one?

[A]

No.

[B]

Kirribilli House.

[A]

Exactly. Well, you knew that one, See, I did.

[B]

But I do think beyond the Kremlin, beyond the White house, beyond number 10, beyond the Elyse. I think it's quite difficult to think of any others.

[A]

Quatre Chen palace in Bucharest. Except.

[B]

Except that you would know that the

[A]

new President hasn't moved in. He's done a King Charles and refused to move into Cotrechen palace, which is a bit offensive anyway. I do think there is a relationship between the status of the country, the status of the office and the status of the building. And I think there is no doubt, and of course, it's erroneous and bias of me to place it all on. On the Brexit doormat. But we have seen an international decline over the last century. By definition, we're no longer an imperial power. And that has diminished somewhat the power, the potency of the number 10 address. Just finally, who was the first Prime Minister to do a house swap with the Chancellor?

[B]

David Cameron. No.

[A]

I thought this was almost a question too easy to ask you.

[B]

Oh, polears. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And what's interesting and shows how dated writing becomes. I took that off a news website from the 1990s and it said, and that's because a bachelor, Gordon Brown, didn't have a family. And I thought, gosh, I don't think you'd refer to a single male politician today as a bachelor, would you?

[B]

No, because I think. Or spinster, but spinster's different.

[A]

That was out before Bachelor.

[B]

Yes, it was, but not long before. I think Bachelor now has the connotation of. Well, that means that person's gay, which he never, never did. I mean, that was never part of the meaning before.

[A]

Gordon Brown was never gay. Sorry, will we go to a break?

[B]

Possibly we should.

[A]

It's very hot in here.

[B]

It is very hot in here.

[A]

Will I take my top?

[B]

No, don't. Now, I have found the name of the Italian Prime Minister of residence. You're absolutely right. Le palazzo Chi Chigi. Chigi Chi G. I don't know, I don't do Italian.

[A]

Is it like, ciao chichi?

[B]

C H I G I.

[A]

But the point is that I think

[B]

it doesn't confer authority on it, does it?

[A]

But Italians, that's not their usp. Their unique selling point is. Well, I always associate them with television in the 90s. Euro Trash. No, that's to talk down Melanie, whatever she's called.

[B]

I always think if you said the word. Say the word Italian to me. I always think of food.

[A]

I think of Bellusconi. He was the Most outstanding politician of my. From my generation, I think. Yeah, he was a terrible man, but he. He. He had certain unforgettable qualities. We are going to go to questions in a minute, but first of all, Ian. And this is in honor of our new English graduate Prime Minister. I'm going to throw in a few words. Words. And you're going to tell me what I'm trying to say. We must, with celerity. Oh, no, let me go again. We must, with celerity, close down this podcast.

[B]

No idea.

[A]

Speed. Celerity. I rather like that word. I knew it. But it was. It was brought home again when I read it.

[B]

Why not just say speed in Tender was the Night?

[A]

Because, Ian, imagine this is all from

[B]

Tender is the Night. Is it?

[A]

It's my Scott Fitzgerald period. That's all. I'll move on. I'll do Dickens for you next week. Week. I would say that what we've developed is something close to propinquity. In fact, when I listen to our podcast, I lie there thinking, what? Propinquity,

[B]

Fluency.

[A]

Closeness and an approximate.

[B]

Right sort of. Okay, I'm not sure that's a word I will ever use again.

[A]

It's so pleasing, though, propinquity.

[B]

It sounds to me like somebody has used it because they thought they needed to sound clever.

[A]

Almost like sort of. It's almost serendipitous, you know?

[B]

Oh, I do know what that means.

[A]

Good fortune that we're so near. Near each other. That's how I understood it. I'm happy for people to correct me. I am prepared to expiate all of Andy Barnum's sins.

[B]

Forgive atone.

[A]

Yeah. And we need to, as I said once already, and it's partly because of the heat. Exigent matters are so pressing that I. I need to be acting with celerity over this pod.

[B]

Close matters.

[A]

Exigent is urgency. Okay. And then sexually, because I know you like sexual stuff on onanistic prior pick.

[B]

Onionistic is masturbatory.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

I think. Well, I think that sometimes this podcast, and perhaps particularly today because you've had a sore eye and so forth and the room is hot and we're a little distracted. I think this pod could be accused of having onanistic overtones.

[B]

Self indulgent.

[A]

No. Failing to climax.

[B]

No. That's complete rubbish. Onanism is masturbation.

[A]

No. Onanistic sex is when you withdraw early. I can't believe we're arguing about this.

[B]

Yeah, and then you. Then you have a wanker.

[A]

Yeah, but it's so you don't arrive at the climax on a mystic.

[B]

I'm glad Corey's on the phone not listening.

[A]

This podcast is on a mystic, Corey. Okay. And finally it are we. Sadly, I think that I would like our listenership to be growing in a centrifugal fashion. But sometimes I think we tend to be centripetal. Or is it centripetal? Centripetal.

[B]

Inward looking.

[A]

Yeah. I think our listenership and us are centripetal in our tendencies.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Towards honor Nastasis hell.

[B]

Right, let's move on to some questions because that was a bit of an anti climax. Get it?

[A]

Yeah, I do. Do you see how much more impressive the onanistic reference is? It's lucky that we have propriety in our relationship, Ian.

[B]

Its main meaning, I still maintain, is about masturbation. I know this because I read now this is a book, a clever book that I've read Spring Awakening Free Links Evachen by Frank Vaderkind which we did for our German A level. And it is all about masturbation which obviously 16 year old I was quite into.

[A]

It's a sexual route, the onanistic route. It. But you can apply it to other things. It's like centripetal comes from science because I showed the list to Mara and the only one she knew was oh God, you're annoying. Okay, question. You go first.

[B]

No, you go first because I haven't got mine up yet and I probably can't see them when I do.

[A]

Okay, well I shall read then the first question which says it pains me greatly to write this as I'm definitely more team Tessa, but I have to in the interests of fairness brackets. Ugh. When Tessa talked about the Ukrainian defense minister that has just been sacked, the first adjective she used to was good looking. If Ian had said this about a female minister, Tessa would have pounced that autocorrected to punched. But I prefer the image of Tessa pouncing like a hunting cat into Ian's shiny head. Lots of love, Ina, as in ballerina, not inner or Dinah as you are,

[B]

Nina, Pretty ballerina who sang that doesn't matter.

[A]

I think she makes an interesting point. Ferradova, or whatever he was called, the 35 year old was. I think one of his outstanding qualities was his ability to reach to a populist audience and his looks therefore mattered because he was attractive.

[B]

Would you have jumped down my throat if I'd said that about a female? Because there's some very good looking female Ukrainian MPs that I've interviewed. Is it really beyond the pale now to point out the fact that someone is actually very.

[A]

I think Ina's point was. It was what I led with. I thought you were about to say then, Ian, there's some very good looking Labour ministers and I.

[B]

Well, there are. I mean Liz Kendall is a fine looking woman.

[A]

But you didn't mention that Rachel Reeves

[B]

is a fine looking woman.

[A]

You didn't mention that when she.

[B]

No, I didn't.

[A]

So interestingly, Ina has a point.

[B]

I mean, Angela Rayner has her virtues.

[A]

Let's move on. Okay, thanks for that, Ina. It's food for thought and I'll try and be better behaved. Ian, do you now have a question?

[B]

It's from your favorite questioner, Brian Sieg. No, it's actually. It's Brian. He's put in brackets. Sage.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

All right, we'll spell it sage then. Honestly. Right. Should Burnham have come before Parliament prior to the recess to give an outline of his programme and principles as Prime Minister? In theory, yes, but that was Starmer's decision and I think it was possibly done out of a little bit of pique. They could have easily added a day onto the recess, but they chose not to. I think if Burnham doesn't get off to a good start and if he's flailing after the first few months, I think people will really think of this moment as a democratic outrage. It isn't, but people will still see it like that in the way that they see the fact that we haven't had an election as a democratic outrage. I don't view it like that at all. But I think when somebody is picked not from the parliamentary Labour Party, but from outside the parliamentary Labour Party and then parachuted in in a by election, I think people do find that a little icky.

[A]

Do you know what it'll be like? It'll be like a governmental penis extension and then an onanistic end. God, without climax. Right, I'm now going to.

[B]

What do you think of Mrs. Burnham?

[A]

Message from Dino. Well, I wrote down her name really carefully so I didn't disappoint you. Marie France Van de Heel and she was at Cambridge with Andy and that's how they met.

[B]

I don't think there's a dirt in it and I think think it. She. She's of Dutch extraction, she speaks English. So I mean I'm not sure she is Dutch, but obviously her family background is Dutch. But I think it's Van Hale.

[A]

Doesn't matter. Anyway, I don't think her dress.

[B]

Well, I think it does Matter. You wouldn't like it if people called you Tessa Dunlop.

[A]

Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, that does matter. But I think we're over worrying in these early days. We'll hone it and iron it out over the weekend. In the meantime, I can confirm, I think, that her dress wasn't designer and therefore not free or gifted. So that's very good. That will go down well.

[B]

So what you're saying is she looked a bit shabby.

[A]

I didn't say that.

[B]

No, but you implied it.

[A]

I didn't imply it.

[B]

You did imply. I just said what you said before the podcast.

[A]

That's not. I didn't. That was totally unfair. And cut that, please. Corey. Hi, Dr. Tessa. As a British citizen, but raised by an Italian mother I hate. And Dale. And having. He didn't write that. I just inserted it. And having an Italian name, I believe I'm perfectly situated to explain why not supporting England is okay. As a nine year old in primary school, I remember a day back in 1977. Gosh, we're going quite far back with this question. England were playing Italy in a World cup qualifier. England won 2 nil. Keegan. God bless Keegan, who died today.

[B]

Oh, yeah, that is so sad.

[A]

It is Sad. Died at 75. Keegan and Brooklyn were the scorers on the day. I had never watched or played football in my life and yet was ridiculed and abused for being Italian. Then a few months later, after some other games I knew nothing about, Italy qualified for the World cup at England's expense. More abuse use from that day. I've. I've never supported England, only Italy. From Dino, otherwise known as Dino, who came to visit you at the Bradford Literary Festival.

[B]

He did, yeah. Thank you.

[A]

Don't answer that, just get.

[B]

Well, I actually remember that match. Bizarrely, I was 15. I do remember that match. That's. I mean, Kevin Keegan was a massive star in the 1970s and early 80s.

[A]

Had such a great hand, even if you weren't into football. He was a lover.

[B]

Lovely perm. I wanted that permission.

[A]

Did you fancy him a bit then?

[B]

Everyone fancied Keegan a bit too young to be in the fancy game when he sort of first on the scene. But no, I didn't. I. Yeah. So I interviewed Kevin Keegan once. He. His autobiography came out and he was exactly how I wanted him to be. I mean, it was just a natural person. He took an interest. I mean, I mentioned that I supported West Ham at the beginning of the interview and he kept dotting it throughout the rest of the interview and he was very funny.

[A]

That's a nice touch.

[B]

And we're going to. I hope we can find the audio for this so we can put it out as an all talk on. On Wednesday. But he was a brilliant footballer. He was. He was really one of our first major exports of football. He joined Hamburg, I think, in 1980 and was an absolute star of the Bundesliga for several years.

[A]

Well, I'm glad he got to see if he did, if he was in an okay state and was able to see England smash France at the weekend.

[B]

Oh, did you watch that?

[A]

Did watch a bit of it by the end. It was quite interesting.

[B]

Did you watch? It's interesting. Did you see Bellingham's last goal?

[A]

Yeah, it was amazing. It was fantastic.

[B]

But didn't you think, do you remember back the hand of God goal. And then after that, Maradona scored one way, like literally ran from the halfway line, went past Terry Fennec, a couple of other defenders and slotted it past Peter Shilton. One of the best goals you will ever see. And Bellingham score, I think was the equal of that. And yet nobody's talking about.

[A]

Actually, that's not true. It appeared on my Instagram and it's the first time I've ever posted to my stories on Instagram a football reel. Because it was so impressive and if it reached me, it's reached others.

[B]

You are going to have to teach me how to do proper reels.

[A]

I will. If you sit and have concentration for longer than two minutes on something that isn't anally and sometimes irrelevantly political. Jonathan, question for the pod. How can Nigel Farage stick up and give a platform to Lucy Connolly? She's the one that said, you know, burn the migrant hotels and yet complain over social media media posts which target reform. Very good point. Thanks for that, Jonathan.

[B]

Well, I mean, he gave a platform. Well, Reform gave her a platform at their conference. I'm not aware of any other massive support though. All.

[A]

All along about she's wrongly jailed.

[B]

No, I mean, she's become a sort of icon for that part of politics.

[A]

But we know that they don't like freedom of speech if it attacks them and they don't like trolling if it attacks them. But otherwise fair game. Hands up. Look the other way. These are the two very different responses I had to suggesting there may have been a misogynistic aspect to Anne Widdcombe's murder. Barry says, absolutely disgusting of Tessa to associate Anne Widdcom's death with her pet subject of misogyny, especially when notice hasn't been announced. And don't get me started on the woeful attempt to justify it with a two to one ratio of political deaths. Puerile then I got this from Alby who is our regular right wing commentator and political listener. He says you are right on the misogyny point and Anne Widdicombe so I prefer Albie's thoughts.

[B]

Well, Alby will never be appearing on the podcast again, obviously.

[A]

That's obviously for me to side when you're on holiday and I think we're closing this down now because Corey seems exercised over who you're going to have as a guest. There is an exigent number of things which you have to address.

[B]

Here we go. Yep, we are going to have to address it because I'm away for the first two weeks of August and I will expicate. Oh please end end my torture now, Corey.

[A]

Oh gosh.

[B]

Are you having at Where Politics Meets History on Instagram where politics meets historylobal.com if you want to email a question in because we'd love some by Thursday because we've run out a pre epic a pre epic response and do book tickets for the Edinburgh Fringe via my website. This is Ian closing down the charity Zach Polanski Key. Well no, I just want to stop you from going on about your fucking pre epic onionistic activities. Goodbye. This has been a global production.