148. In the (Farage) Navy

Summary

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Where Politics Meets History

Episode 148: In the (Farage) Navy
Date: August 4, 2026
Hosts: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop

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Episode Overview

In this episode, broadcaster Iain Dale and historian Dr. Tessa Dunlop dive into the week’s hottest political headlines—migrant crossings, reform party drama, and climate anxieties—by exploring their historical echoes. They bring their trademark blend of sharp analysis, playful debate, and personal anecdotes, weaving in contemporary controversies with lessons (and laughter) from the past.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Weddings, Resilience, and Female Politicians (00:47–11:50)

• Iain recounts Jackie Smith’s family wedding (former podcast co-host), memorable for the lively presence of baronesses and meaningful speeches.
  • Notable guests included Caroline Flint and three baronesses from the House of Lords, renowned for their uninhibited dancing and riotous company.
  • Iain emphasizes the value of enduring friendships, referencing support he provided during difficult times and a personal poem he read at the wedding.
• Discussion on aging adventurously and generational attitudes to revelry, referencing AA Gill’s travel writing.
• Quote:

  "You saying that these women over 60 swinging their asses in true Baroness style. It reminds me of that term old adventurers…They're up for everything...swizzling their booty over 60 on the dance floor."
  — Tessa Dunlop (03:46)

• Reflection on how friendships endure and transition out of old professional partnerships (07:00–11:16).

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2. Media Representation and Climate Anxiety (16:07–21:54)

• Tessa describes her media experience on The Jeremy Vine Show, struggling to highlight climate change during debates dominated by migration and Reform Party rhetoric.

  • Expresses frustration at mainstream media agendas, calling attention to food security and climate as pressing but underreported crises.
  • Emotional moment as a listener/mental health nurse validates the widespread anxiety about climate.
  • Quote:

    "I want to go on the show and tell you that this is a terrible agenda. This is part of the mass mainstream media's problem, that we're actually not owning what's going on around us, we're not seeing it."
    — Tessa Dunlop (18:01)

• Iain’s advice on not becoming a "one trick pony" in media appearances:

  • Quote:

    "Do not get a reputation for being a one trick pony on that subject [climate change]...You do not want to get that reputation."
    — Iain Dale (19:17)

• Lively debate over whether focusing on a singular issue risks credibility or raises necessary alarm in a rapidly changing climate context.

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3. Migrant Crossings, Reform Party, and the Royal Navy (21:08–26:58)

• Dissection of recent Channel migrant crossing statistics—Tessa claims crossings have halved, Iain disputes the figures.
  • Ultimately, after looking up government sources, both agree figures have dropped by around half, but context and timeframes matter (33:00).
• Debate on Reform Party’s proposal to use the Royal Navy to return migrants to France:
  • Iain dismisses feasibility, citing experienced naval voices:

    "There is only one solution to stopping the boats, and that is for the French to do so on the beaches. And we know that they're not going to do that." — Iain Dale (22:02)

  • Tessa criticizes media focus on this policy while the party faces internal scandal over alleged financial misconduct (24:44).
• Discussion of Reform Party infighting—the fallout between Tice and Farage over loan repayments and alleged electoral law breaches.
  • Quote:

    "It just staggers me…on the mainstream media…it just felt disproportionate to be talking about a party that's really had its day, I think."
    — Tessa Dunlop (25:10)

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4. EU, Spain, and Migration Crisis Parallels (28:46–31:32)

• The Ceuta migration incident—Spain’s use of military force to repel African migrants, and perceived fractured EU response.
  • Comparison of UK channel crossings to the situation in Spain/Morocco, and the inappropriateness of direct analogies.
  • Quote:

    "What a facile comment…I'm quite happy if the EU is successful, because if they're successful, actually there's probably a side effect for us."
    — Iain Dale (30:05)

• Tessa probes the political response, speculating on EU frictions and how historical territorial control (like Calais) is misused in contemporary rhetoric.

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5. Danube River: Climatic & Historical Crisis (33:55–41:24)

• Tessa’s passionate segment on the Danube as both a political and ecological bellwether:
  • Severe drought has crippled hydro and nuclear power along the river, threatening energy security and exposing the vulnerabilities of low-carbon infrastructure to climate change.
  • Historical importance—how the Danube shaped Central/Eastern European civilizations and is now a locus of environmental disaster.
  • Literary nod: AA Gill’s writing on the Danube and the cruise culture of “old adventurers.”
  • Quote:

    "The great solutions to climate change are hydroelectricity and nuclear power. And both of them are horribly compromised because of the drought across Europe."
    — Tessa Dunlop (35:09)

• Geography Quiz: Tessa quizzes Iain on the Danube’s course, leading to a comic display of uncertain European geography (36:23–38:37).

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6. Europe's Historical Losses: Jewish Culture Along the Danube (41:46–42:24)

• Tessa reflects on the absence of Jewish communities once thriving along the Danube, highlighting the region’s historic role in European Jewish life, and the cultural loss attributed to genocide and migration.
  • Quote:

    "So much of the civilization…has been thanks to their presence. And it’s a great tragedy and a great loss in the 20th century. And the loss in the 21st century is actually the goddamn water."
    — Tessa Dunlop (41:46)

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7. Lighter Notes: Travel Mishaps & Parenthood (42:24–44:47)

• Iain shares a rare travel success story (no disasters!), and the hosts swap anecdotes about airport security, childhood sports, and nostalgic reflections.
• Tessa brags (modestly and with confusion) about her daughter’s medal and participation in a NASA event in Florida.

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8. Final Thoughts and Forthcoming Episodes (44:47–end)

• Iain plugs his Edinburgh Fringe appearance with Nicola Sturgeon and other politicians, inviting listeners to attend and interact.
• The hosts reaffirm that their clashes and corrections keep the show vibrant, helping them break out of personal echo chambers.

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Notable Quotes

• “Do not get a reputation for being a one trick pony on that subject…You do not want to get that reputation.”
  — Iain Dale (19:17)
• “The great solutions to climate change are hydroelectricity and nuclear power. And both of them are horribly compromised because of the drought across Europe.”
  — Tessa Dunlop (35:09)
• “I don't sit here sort of thinking, oh excellent, the EU is in trouble...I’m quite happy if the EU is successful because if they're successful, actually there's probably a side effect for us.”
  — Iain Dale (30:05)
• “So much of the civilization…has been thanks to their presence. And it’s a great tragedy and a great loss in the 20th century. And the loss in the 21st century is actually the goddamn water.”
  — Tessa Dunlop (41:46)

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Key Timestamps

• Wedding stories and women in politics: 00:47–11:50
• Friendship and personal support: 11:16–12:15
• Media anxieties & climate focus: 16:07–21:54
• Reform Party, Navy policy & migrant stats: 21:08–26:58, 32:58–33:55
• EU, Spain, and migration analysis: 28:46–31:32
• The Danube’s climate & historical crisis: 33:55–41:24
• Jewish culture along the Danube: 41:46–42:24
• Travel mishaps & personal notes: 42:24–44:47

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Tone & Style

The conversation is witty, candid, at times irreverent, with both hosts openly correcting each other, laughing at their own mistakes, and showing vulnerability—be it over personal anxieties, statistics, or geography. The interplay between Iain’s political pragmatism and Tessa’s passionate historical storytelling makes for a lively, engaging recap of history’s recurring themes in today’s headlines.

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Transcript

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is a global production. What motivated this extraordinary number of predominantly but not only young men to charge the souter coastline? It was, it was phenomenal. And what's so disappointing is the way the fractured way in which the EU have responded to it. As a Brexiteer, I'm sure you were cheering from your deck chair.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, what a facile comment. I mean, I don't think the EU has responded in a very fractured way. I think they've all been quite united against Spain and called Spain out for what it's done. I mean, I don't sit here sort of thinking, oh excellent, the EU is in trouble. I don't think like that. I'm quite happy if the EU is successful because if they're successful, actually there's probably a side effect for us.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hello, this is Tessa Dunlop reporting in from boiling London, 35 degrees plus. And that's just the temperature of my brain throwing to the outcast. Who is Ian Dale, who's currently in Dublin. How did you manage that one, you jammy so and so?

[Ian Dale]

Well, there's clouds in the sky here. It's not, it is warm but it's not hot. A bit like in Malvern at the weekend. It was a pleasant, it was an ambient temperature, it wasn't unpleasant.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, enjoy it because soon that weather will be next century, or rather I should say last century. You were at a very big wedding this weekend. I've been on a big telly show, well, only Channel 5 actually, but it felt big because I had to plan my way through it. It's almost as long as the Odyssey, the Jeremy Vine. But I think first up we have to discover why you and Corey go to a wedding in Malvern where I thought there'd be no phone reception and there was a tinkle on my telephone at 11:30 at night and I thought that young Corrie's been on the gin again. What was going on?

[Ian Dale]

Well, this was right at the end of the wedding, Lara, who's Jackie's daughter in law, married to her son James. And Lara, shall we say, is a, a character and very occurred to me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And if we said, in case we've got a new listener to the show, who's landed from the Outer Hebrides are out of space. Exactly who was getting married and why you were there?

[Ian Dale]

Well, it was your predecessor on the podcast, Jackie Smith in the, in the predecessor podcast for the Many. And it was a, it was, it was a quite a private do actually. There weren't many politicos there. Caroline Flint was there Also former presenter of the podcast sometimes, and her husband. And then there were these three baronesses from the House of Lords who were an absolute riot. And when the dancing started, I mean, should we say they went for it in a way that women of a certain age you wouldn't necessarily expect to. And I did actually take a video of them which they insisted I should post on Facebook, but I haven't. And there was one I'd really warm to who I'd never heard of. Baroness Blake of Leeds. She's a former leader of Leeds City Council and she's now a minister at the Ministry of Housing under Angela Raynham. So I got talking to her and you know, I'm doing this new book on resilience. I said her so which minister deals with resilience in the department? Then she said, well, I do. I said, you're my new best friend.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh look, that's Ian. The network apart.

[Ian Dale]

So we're now having lunch to talk about resilience.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Doesn't sound like you, Ian. A cozy lunch with a political.

[Ian Dale]

No, indeed. And then there was Julian Marin, who's a health minister who used to be a Labor mp. I think she was elected at the same time as Jackie. Again. Lovely, lovely woman. And Sharon Taylor, Baroness Taylor, and I think she's also a minister at the Ministry of Housing. And they were just brilliant company, I have to say.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You know, you saying that these women over 60 swinging their asses in true Baroness style. It reminds me of that term old adventurers. You know, you get them, they go off with their sticks. I mean they're not quite there yet at the moment they're swinging their booty. In 10 years time they'll be hiking, you know, with two sticks and a backpack. Feast for the.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, no, I can imagine that, I can imagine that. But it was really weird because, you know, at weddings sometimes it's difficult to get people on the dance floor. Well, the, the, the reception that started about five and then there were sort of speeches. Jackie did the first speech which was very funny and she's. Because regular listeners to the podcast will remember her antipathy towards Manchester whenever we'd have an argument about Birmingham because she always said, well, it's definitely the second city. I said, no, I think Manchester is now. And she did this really funny how, because Graham, her husband comes from Salford, but she was saying, of course over the last couple of years I've really had to change my mind about Manchester, which I used to think was this God awful place, downtrodden and really not worth anybody's attention at all. But then I've met Andy Burnham, of course, and he's appointed me as a minister rather than saying, and now growing as my husband. It was funny that I've made it out to be. And then her sister Sarah, who is who I see every night, why I say every night. She's a BBC reporter for BBC Southeast. She did a very funny speech. And then Graham, he didn't really have a best man, but the nearest equivalent was this guy, a professor of politics from the University of Gothenburg who had more or less perfect English. And he marched up to the stage with no script or anything and just spoke completely off the cuff, which you have to admire in anybody when English is your second language. And he was, he was very funny too. So the reception was really good. And then so the dancing started about half past seven and like literally apart from me, everybody was on the dance flooring. Including. Including young Cosa.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, well, that doesn't surprise me. I've got to say, one of the great advantages to getting a bit older, and this is oft said, it's so often said, in fact that it's a cliche, but you are more relaxed, you take yourself less seriously. So of course everyone gets down and dirty as quickly as they can. It's almost like you're running out of time. You've got to just go for it while going's good.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, later in the evening we were all sitting outside in the garden and well, I say all there was Jackie's mother, Jill and Graham and Jackie and me and Corey and a couple of others and then Lara. So her daughter in law comes up and she goes, I don't know whether to tell you this, but I had a dream about Tessa the other night. She think, where's this going? And she said it was really weird because I had a wedgie and Tessa thought it was very uncouth of me and really objected to when I tried to pull out the wedgie.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Jackie's daughter. Tell me more about Jackie's daughter. Have I met her in your life?

[Ian Dale]

No. I mean, she obviously listens to the podcast. In fact, Graham listens to the podcast as well. I don't think Jackie does, I have to say, only when Graham plays it in the car.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I don't think that we need Jackie to listen to the podcast because I think that it was something that you and her did and now we do something different and we all go through different stages in life, don't we? I mean, I think it would be odd almost if she listened to the podcast. If I'm honest with you, I think there's something about that makes me fonder of Jackie that she doesn't. I think I might feel a bit checked up on, to be honest, if she did.

[Ian Dale]

Great. Graham checks up on you for her.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

So I. I don't. Could. She doesn't really understand what provoked this dream. But anyway, I just thought you'd like to know because. So Corey tried to ring you so you could talk to Lara and she could explain herself to you, but you didn't answer. For once in your life you didn't an.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because I was entertaining my Italians. I. We're later on in the show, we're going to talk about the Danube and A.A. gill and how I think he's the most fantastic writer because he wrote this amazing poem about piece of literature about the Danube. But it absolutely. You triggered me when you talked about the four baroness's wiggling their booty on the dance floor and all of you leaping onto said dance floor at 7 o'. Clock. He writes about going down the Danube, which you can't do at the moment because there's no water. And he gets on this cruise with people that he refers to as immensely old and fit. And then he starts getting into why he loves cruising with old people so much. He says I'm introduced to the joy of traveling with the adventurous old who live against the clock. They're up for everything. Trips to the Abbey and distillery, operas, folk dancing, chili pepper factories, afternoon quizzes, evening sing alongs. We can add to that. Swizzling their booty over 60 on the dance floor. What did you do, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

Well, what does it say about me that I didn't dance at all? I did say I would if they played Abba. And then we were in the garden and I suddenly heard the band strike up. Take it easy, take it nice and slow. Does your mother know?

[Tessa Dunlop]

And what did you do?

[Ian Dale]

Nothing. Because it would have meant getting up and going back into the building and then embarrassing myself. So I stayed put.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But weren't you wearing your sensible shoes as usual?

[Ian Dale]

I was, yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We've got no excuse then.

[Ian Dale]

No.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You can't have Mounjaro do all the work for you, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

No, I know. Well, doing a bit of a dance isn't going to do much, is it? I. I'm just. I don't know. If I've had a few drinks, I will often do it. But I didn't have any drinks.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I thought I saw some of the photos. I thought Jackie's dress Was particularly attractive lace and just fitted enough to show off what is a very lovely.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, no, no, she. She's. Whatever I say here is going to be wrong so I'm not going to say anything. But no, she looked really, really good and Graham scrubbed up. Oh, poor Graham though. We were doing all the pictures and a wasp stung him on the mouth, can you believe? But no, he looked great and it was just a. You know what? I don't like weddings generally. I usually can't wait to get away from them but that was a really lovely do everyone. And I had. I had several people come up to me and sort of say thank you for being such a good friend to Jackie over the years which, which really sort of got me. And I had two sons because what when she had the. Split up from her first husband, I mean I. I think I was one of the first people that she told and we weren't actually that close friends at the time and I see you podding.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Were you podding at that stage?

[Ian Dale]

I think we just started and I remember we had dinner in the Hippodrome and she just burst into tears and I wasn't quite sure what to do or say but I mean, I think I was a bit of a support for at the time and both of her sons, at the end of it just gave me these massive bet because I had big boys, massive bear hugs and said thank you for being such a good friend to our mother, which I thought was lovely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That is nice. You are a good friend and it's one of your great qualities. Well, great.

[Ian Dale]

I do try. And then of course my poem, which I was a bit nervous about, I'll admit, but it did go down a storm.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Hang on, was this the poem that Corey wasn't there for?

[Ian Dale]

Oh, no, no. Corey was the. I did it in the ceremony, which, I mean it was quite an accolade really because she had a reading done by a friend of Graham's from Canada and she did a thing about second time, a poem about second time around which I think it's quite well known but I. I thought, well, I'll write mine. But I mean it was quite. Given that they could have picked a lot of other people to do it. I. I really was quite honored to

[Tessa Dunlop]

be surprised because you are singularly focused, I think, on your friends in a way that some people use friendship as a sort of bridge to get them through experiences whereas I think you make a decision that once you're going to have a friend, you'll hold on to that person. For better or for worse. And you take them normally, you walk them out of this world as well. I've seen that with James Whale. I've seen it with Anne Widdicombe, you know, and that's just in the short time of knowing you. You're not someone who sort of, you know, has a. Has a brief stint and then moves on, but because it's got inconvenient or it's no longer as accessible.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I would never, like, dump a friend because it was inconvenient. In fact, it's quite the opposite. There have been several friends in my life who I could have easily dumped it and it would be very convenient to do so. But, I mean, either a friend is a friend is a friend. It's like when I went on television defending the Hamiltons after they were accused of rape. I mean, I just thought, what. What friend would I be if I didn't do that? And yet I had people telling me it would not be good for my political career.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I want to come to the Hamiltons a bit later on in the show. We should say what we're going to talk about in this pack a bit, because I noticed Bin Face was promoting Martin Bell as the reason why he has a chance of winning against Farage, because Bell won against Neil Hamilton. And I wanted you to remind me of that because I couldn't remember the nuances of that particular.

[Ian Dale]

Well, let's do that election. Let's do that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's come to that. Unpick Farage and his endless capacity, him and his party's capacity to still hog the headlines even though he's sunk in the polls. Because it is a conundrum that I can't really begin to get my head around, and I do. We've had a lot of traction about climate anxiety and whether mine is misplaced and your reaction is symptomatic of a greater malaise or not. And tied into that, I wanted to do a little bit of a history of the Danube because it's so spectacular and it's full of adventurous elderly. In fact, I think it's where Jackie should be honeymooning. Where is she off to?

[Ian Dale]

It's sort of. I think they're going on a cruise. Not, not, not unadjacent to that area of the world.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I hope there's water in the river, because the rhyme's nearly dry and the Danube's dry and can hear Corey's little voice and he's saying, do a trail. You haven't told anyone what's coming Up. He's quite right. Very poor discipline. Corey. Sorry, but I too have taken. I don't know, I haven't, I haven't taken any wedding vibes. What did you drink, by the way? Corey said he stayed off the gin, but he clearly had a drink.

[Ian Dale]

Corey, I'll tell you what. And I, I did text him afterwards when I got back to the hotel. Believe he walked me back to the hotel. This is the age I've got to. He was staying somewhere else and I texted him afterwards and said, you looked absolutely stunning today. Because he did. He got this new three piece suit which I think had been bought for him for a wedding where he was a groomsman a few weeks ago and I've never seen him look so lovely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's a good looking man.

[Ian Dale]

Lovely. Lovely is the wrong word but you know what I mean.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Neutral times. It's okay. We. Anyone can be lovely.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but you, I mean I did preface what I said in this text. I said this is meant not in a creepy way, but you did look stunning today. But you always have to think of these things now where you compliment someone and people automatically think there's some sort of weird agenda.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think there is something of the way Corey looks and is his manner. There's something slightly Evelyn war about him. Early mid, early or between the wars, he's got that kind of vibe going on. Not quite the Roaring twenties, the. There's a slightly more existential devil's decade thirties about him I think. But it's the corduroy which even you actually see in, in the sort of Kingsley Amos types in the 50s.

[Ian Dale]

Nobody wears corduroy nowadays. Apart from Corey.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Exactly. And he's the sort of person who doesn't buy a coat for a season, he buys a coat for life. And sensible shoes that you'll March through the 50s, the 60s and the 70s in. In fact he's really very, very, I think, environmental in that respect. If only he didn't get water delivered to his doorstep, all would be forgiven.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, that was quite a revelation, that was. Yeah.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Dan said, when I told Dan, he said what does he want microplastics in his bloody testicles? Were you wearing a morning jacket? Morning suit?

[Ian Dale]

No, of course I wasn't.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What did you wear then? I wore a lounge suit.

[Ian Dale]

I wore my light blue suit with a. With a crimson tie which I, when I started, got up on the stage, I said, I hope you've noticed I've dressed in Aston Villa colors which. Because that's Jackie's team. And then I did A sort of side whisper, actually. It's West Ham, but don't tell her. Which also got a laugh.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But, you see, the politicos might have thought the light blue suit was reformy and the tie perhaps New Labor.

[Ian Dale]

I don't think so.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, you could unpick it anyway.

[Ian Dale]

No, but you're overthinking it anyway. We need to go to a break.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So while Ian was unpacking, I think you almost virtually went through a marriage yourself there, by the way, Ian. An extraordinary experience in Malvern and then flying on to Ireland. I was coming to terms with having.

[Ian Dale]

I could actually. Do you want all my transport stories? Because podcast listers love those.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, we'll save them to the end, I think, you know, we'll hold out for those. Ian, how did he make it to Ireland in the 21st century?

[Ian Dale]

Almost without incident.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Extraordinary stuff. Was he in a rowboat? Who knows? We'll find out later. I was having to square the circle. That was feeling really anxious. I know you think I'm ridiculous about the climate and going on to a television show where the two lead debates were reform. Just a general what's happening? Unpack reform. Partly because we had David Bull, who was the former party chairman, on the show alongside me. And then the second section was whether it was going to be okay to use the Royal Navy to return small boat migrants to French shores. The context for that is Andy Burnham's gone down south of London for the first time I've seen him actually stood on the white cliffs of Dover and intoned about how he's going to make it different, when actually, if you dig in, it's more of the same. Which, incidentally, the medicine Keir Starmer dealt, the situation is superficially working, actually. They think it's much more likely that there's not been conducive currents to the crossings. And also Europe has seen a far lower number of migrants arrive on the continent, which is why we're getting fewer across the Channel. But the idea of the main bulk of the show being about something that I think is secondary to food security, which is national security. And then the only bit that tackled.

[Ian Dale]

Sorry, sorry. Food security, where's that? Come on, where's that in the headlines?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. National Farmers Union finally got his say this morning, leading all the headlines on the BBC, that actually we've got failed harvests and food prices will be rising. Basic crops like oats and wheat and the apples are boiling on the trees and farmers are currently having to spray clay on them to stop the fruit Boiling on the trees and we're going to come to what's going down on the Danube. And the question I was allowed to speak in the context of climate change was should we have shorter working days if the office gets too hot? And I've got to say, Ian, it's really difficult as a freelancer because you don't want to take a great big gun out and shoot off your foot. You know, I'm really good at doing that. But I was. I don't want to talk about any of these topics. I feel like I, I want to go on the show and tell you that this is a terrible agenda. This is part of the mass mainstream media's problem, that we're actually not owning what's going on around us, we're not seeing it. And, and I, and I went round and round in my head and I almost called you, but I knew you were on a wedding high to know how to manage it on air so that I didn't, you know, take down the show with me when on air.

[Ian Dale]

And did you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think Jeremy vine referred to it as Tessa is ranging. That's how he referred to it.

[Ian Dale]

In other words, going off the topic.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, Any chance I got. Any chance. Somehow I did. That thing of this show is a handmaiden to the reform agenda, when actually I don't understand David Bull trying to. If Ian gets emotional about friendship with Jackie, I get emotional about climate change trying to stop.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but you did. I mean, with all due respect, and this is, this is well meant advice, do not get a reputation for being a one trick pony on that subject.

[Tessa Dunlop]

On what subject? Climate change. Yeah, Well, I did rein it in so that I managed to talk about the other subjects.

[Ian Dale]

There are several guests that I no longer have on my show because whatever question they're asked, they bring it back to their pet subject. And I'm just thinking, you're not respecting the show, you're not respecting me, fuck off and don't come back. And you do not want to get that reputation.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but I think in the middle of a fourth heat wave, it became a sort of running when a lot of people are experiencing it. If I agree, if it was November, perhaps, or in the end, I think Jeremy, the way I wangled it in, he found it quite funny. He went, oh, it's the first time I've ever been scolded for saying, I enjoy a sunny day in England like this. I think it was okay, even like there was a debate on whether we should ban chewing gum. And I went, well, of course, the hot weather means chewing gum is like sticking to our shoes in a way that it wouldn't normally. Oh, God, now you've made me paranoid, Ian. Are you.

[Ian Dale]

I would. I would just roll my eyes if you came out with something like that.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think maybe, but I think there's also a broader. You do roll your eyes. And we've had a lot of questions and commentary about this. And when I left the show last Thursday, feeling that we may have taken it too far from our retrospective corners, I bumped into a mental health nurse in Brixton who was a listener and he went, I'm a listener. So I sort of held on to him longingly. I sort of almost thought, is it inappropriate? Should I let go of his hand now? Anyway, he sent a little comment in about his mental health musings and his clients around this era, incident of climate change. But to get back to the subject, see how I arranged. There it was, the reform debate, and I find it extraordinary that we're still talking about this. The numbers have halved crossing the Channel, Ian. They've halved in the last year.

[Ian Dale]

No, I don't think that's right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

142.

[Ian Dale]

There was, I think, the first 10 days of Andy Burnham's premiership. I don't think there were any crossings, but. Or was it the last two weeks of Keir Starmers? One or the other. But last week there were like a thousand, weren't there?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but if you look across a year, because you can't just take anecdotally one week across a year, the numbers have fallen by 42%. And in the last year, 14,000 have crossed the Channel, which is about half the number that crossed it the year preceding. Now, as I said, the reasons for that, it's very unlikely. It's Starmer medicine.

[Ian Dale]

There are far more than 14,000 over the last year. I don't know where that figure comes from, but it's more like 40,000.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The statistic in the last year. Okay, what, you give me your take on the Royal Navy and reforms ideas while I just double verify that statistic.

[Ian Dale]

Well, to be fair, I'm in Dublin and I haven't really seriously studied reforms ideas, but the concept of the Royal Navy trying to back back boats into French waters, from a practical point of view, if it was that simple, do they not think it would have been done already? And. And this is the problem that it's very difficult to get any innovative new ideas on this because there is only one solution to stopping the boats, and that is for the French to do so on the beaches. And we know that they're not going to do that. That partly because why would they? They're quite happy to get rid of these people to England because they're not. They wouldn't be their responsibility anymore. So most people that I've heard speak about this, from Royal Navy background, sort of retired admirals, sort of people who know. Know what they're talking about in this area, they say, well, it's for the birds. I mean, what we. What we supposed to do? Sink the boats? Because that's the only thing that you could do to stop them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So two things. And it's interesting that you thought there were far more people crossing the channel than 14,000 in the last year. That speaks to the nature of the headlines and messaging. There were 14,058 who reached English shores in the last year. That's according to the Home Office.

[Ian Dale]

You mean in this calendar year or in the last 12 months?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Because in the last 12 months. In the last 12 months.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, I'm gonna look it up myself because I just.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And remember, that's fallen by 42%. You're right to suggest that this has been mooted before. Boris Johnson called it Operation Isotope. I think the current operation is being dubbed by reform Operation Fortress. What's fascinating is Zia Yousif went on the Today programme to promote this plan. Even though actually it's working, why try and break it? Whatever's happening is seeing fewer numbers cross the Channel. But you mentioned there about French authorities. They think that one of the tangibles that has altered and may have resulted in fewer crossings is actually more law enforcement and active policing from the French side. And I would suggest that if you have the Royal Navy trying to place migrants onto the French shore, that is going to undo all the goodwill that has been built up in the last two years between Britain and France. But more broadly, I find it staggering given the lack of credibility reform has across the board with all these questions regarding finances. And now we've had more information released that actually, it looks like there was a stitch up between Tice and Farage where they had this agreement prior to the time that Farage says he rethought the idea of trying to enter Parliament, where Tice would get the £1 million repaid that he loaned the party prior to Farage taking over the leadership,

[Ian Dale]

which was actually apparently repaid to him personally rather than the company that it was borrowed from, which, I mean, it may be seen by some people as splitting hairs, but there is a big difference

[Tessa Dunlop]

There breaks electoral law. £200,000 of the money repaid went directly to Tice. They're saying that was a mistake, but anyway, it wasn't declared as a mistake at the time, but it just staggers me. And I suppose what upset me was, you know, on the mainstream media, you're a massive part of that. And maybe it's all going wrong, Ian, because you're on holiday or working at a book fair in Ireland, but it just felt disproportionate to be talking about a party that's really had its day, I think. I mean, it's been deflated so comprehensive.

[Ian Dale]

You ever go what you fall into the trap of calling the mainstream media, which is what all these conspiracy theorists call it. And yet who is leading the charge on exposing all of this Richard Tice, George Cottrell stuff? It is the Sunday Times part of the mainstream media. You can't have it both ways.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But we, we know. I mean, I'm very, very cynical about the timing of this. I think that the Times used Farage. He was their Brexit boy. He delivered what the Times wasn't in favour of.

[Ian Dale]

Brexit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Sorry. The Sunday Times was heavily in favour of Brexit and so was the Sun. Only that the Weekly Times, which is much less read than the Sunday Times, did a bit of lip service towards Remain because it understood about where its readership sat, so it hedged its bets with that lesser paper so that they could say exactly what you've just said. I'm deeply cynical about the Murdoch press, but it just, Just be used me as to why I switched on the Today program and I was having to hear from a party who want to weaponize the Royal Navy, who don't even have a spokesperson for defense.

[Ian Dale]

Hang on. I mean, again, you're one. One day you'll criticize reform for having no policies, and then you. Then you criticize them for having a policy, which. I mean, whatever you and I might think of it, it's. It's fairly major to say that the Royal Navy should effectively be. Well, I'm not sure they actually said sinking the boats, but I mean, that's the natural end of what would happen here. I mean, of course it's right for it to be on a program like the Today program. I mean, policies like that have to be scrutinized not just by other political parties, but by the political media as well.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I understand that. It's just, I. I don't think if

[Ian Dale]

you didn't want to listen to it, go and listen to 5 Live or LBC.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, but the point is, I prefer

[Ian Dale]

the other way around.

[Tessa Dunlop]

With you away, darling, I wouldn't touch lbc, but I was having to go into bat and talk about it, so of course I was engaged. I, I, I just think it's disproportionate. And I also think, Andy Burnham, where I want to be led by our new leader, he's got this bounce. He's actually got positive polling. Not only has he overtaken reform, but he's got positive polling. Can we just say that again?

[Ian Dale]

And yet he's two, he's two weeks in today. Is, Is it two weeks or three weeks? Two weeks, yeah. No, but he's entering third week.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Third week?

[Ian Dale]

I think so. I mean, of course, any, any politician, apart from Keir Starmer gets an initial bounce when they become Prime Minister. The test will be, is this still there at Christmas?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right. So what disappointed me was that I'm going to say it again, because we're in the middle of a fourth heat wave and we've been told by the NFU that there's food insecurity coming down the track. Right now we see Barnum posturing on the cliffs of Dover about a problem that actually isn't right now, one of huge national concern. I know what he's doing is he's pushing off what happened in Ceuta, the Spanish territory in North Africa. What's really fascinating about that is that reform, and they admitted it openly this morning, have introduced or got fired up about their policy regarding the Royal Navy, because they saw the way in which the Spanish used their military to send all the migrants back to Morocco. But you're not comparing like with like, because Spain was returning migrants to Morocco across the direct border and we would be returning migrants to France. France isn't British territory. We don't control Calais. We haven't controlled calais since the 1500s.

[Ian Dale]

Well, sure, but there's all sorts of theories going around about what's caused this whole thing in. Is it suitor or Kuta or whatever it's called. I was, I was, I was looking at Twitter earlier on. Always a mistake. And there was a woman who purported to be quite a. A reasonable journalist, seriously suggesting that the US was behind it as a way to get back at Spain over lack of support, over this, that and the other. I mean, where do these people get these theories from?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think that there has been quite a lot of thought around that.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, don't you buy into it, please.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I'm just saying that she, she wasn't alone. She wasn't one. Crazy. There is a cumulative strain of thought that thinks that the Libyan leader, Rahat is he called. What's his name?

[Ian Dale]

No idea.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Has been trying to curry favor with the American administration and I don't give it credence, but I've seen it in more than one place and it was even recorded in a whole profile done by the Financial Times as to what motivated this extraordinary number of predominantly but not only young men to charge the Ceuta coastline. It was phenomenal. And what's so disappointing is the way the fractured way in which the EU have responded to it. It. As a Brexiteer, I'm sure you were chairing. Cheering from your deck chair, you see.

[Ian Dale]

I mean, what a facile comment. I mean, I don't think the EU has responded in a very fractured way. I think they've all been quite united against Spain and, and called Spain out for what it's done. And Spain has then called out the EU for what it's done. I mean, I don't sit here sort of thinking, oh, excellent, the EU is in trouble. I, I don't think like that. I'm quite happy if the EU is successful, because if, if they're successful, actually there's probably a side effect from us, for us.

[Tessa Dunlop]

So the logic. Give me the logic of what, for example, Maloney did in Italy where she said, we're going to suspend the Schengen Agreement with Spain. Why would you do that?

[Ian Dale]

Well, presumably because she was wanting to protect her own borders and making sure these people didn't come into Italy.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But they're not on the Spanish mainland. They have to get passport controls from Morocco.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, I know, but also, Morocco in terms of miles, isn't that far from Italy. So, I mean, some of these people may well end up in it. I mean, we heard several of them were quoted as saying, oh, I quite like the sound of England. So some, some of them will end up here, no doubt.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Except from what I gather, what they've realized is it's extraordinarily difficult unless you have an EU passport to get off Suta. To get out of. Do you see what I mean? So they're sort of trapped in this enclave, unwanted, being harassed. I mean, the locals are really indignant. They're sorely hacked off. They almost outnumbered the locals at some point. There's not very many, although now they

[Ian Dale]

know how the people of Dover feel.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's almost time for a break. Do you know something, Ian? I. I listened back to our pod last week's pod. A little bit of it because I worried that we had too much of a go of each at each other over, you know, the climate change and, and me.

[Ian Dale]

No, what you mean is you had too much of a go at me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, I thought maybe actually you came across as an example of toxic masculinity. I was more worrying about your image, not mine. Anyway, you sit there and, and you're talking about how you're going to write this resilience book and I, and I'm smirking and you go, why are you smirking? And I think, oh no, I sound like a bitch, right? So it did end up me sounding more bitchy than you, funnily enough. And I thought, oh God, this is terrible. Oh no, I didn't. Corey cut it. And then luckily I say no, it's just, I'm laughing because of the idea of French firemen in your basement. And it was, was just saved, Ian. Just saved from me being. Can I.

[Ian Dale]

Can I just explain a basic fact of podcast life to you, Tessa? Yes, it is not Corey's job to save your skin, even though you think it is.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I depend on him. You know, the fact is Jackie's daughter in law thinks of me and wedgies in the same dream. What does she think I'm an asshole floss?

[Ian Dale]

That would worry me more than anything. I mean, how on earth did she come to. I mean, I have some weird dreams sometimes, but I've never thought of you and wedgies in the same dream. Right now can I just. I have looked up all the migration figures.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, how good of you. How big of you.

[Ian Dale]

And you. You are wrong. But you're also right in that you said it was for the last 12 months. It isn't for 2026 so far. Far the total to the 3rd of August is 14 and a half thousand. So that figure was right, but in the wrong time span over the last 12 months it's 3500. But again, you're right that there is a big reduction over the last nearly half. But then again there was a big increase in the previous year. So it's horses for courses. So should we just agree a school

[Tessa Dunlop]

draw, but should we also agree that given all the hot.

[Ian Dale]

The answer to that question was yes.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. But can we also. Well, I. By saying can we also agree that means implicitly I agreed with you, but I just didn't want to actually have to admit it. I'm gutted about the 14,000 thing actually. Yeah, it does. I just didn't read far enough. Oh well, Never mind, eh? Well, it's a learning process.

[Ian Dale]

Life's a learning process, isn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

It is, yeah.

[Ian Dale]

We'll come on to the Danube and then come to some questions as well. So you have been keen, all podcast, to talk about the Danube, which has. Has very little to do with politics and very little to do with history, as far as I can see. But carry on.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, my God. I'm going to clip this and put it on my social medias. I cannot believe you've just said that, Ian. It's the defining river. It literally cuts through cities.

[Ian Dale]

I do know what the Danube is and I know where it goes, almost. I think I know mostly where it goes. I haven't even been on it.

[Tessa Dunlop]

How can you say it's got nothing to do with politics? It's the hottest political potato in Mittel Europa and East Europe right now. Can I explain to you why this is, for example, your brand new, shiny, once popular leader in Hungary, Magyar, is having an absolute nightmare because of the levels, the unprecedentedly low water levels in the Danube. They have had to shut down their only nuclear reactor because how do you cool down your nuclear reactor if the water's not flowing? That's half of Hungary's electricity. Do you know what that means, Ian? People like you in Hungary with an electric car cannot charge their electric car. Do you know what that means, Ian? It means countries like Hungary are having to import fossil fuels. Let's take that further. Let's go to Romania, which has two nuclear reactors. One's been shut down, the other one's imperiled in terms of it being shut down. Hydroelectricity in Serbia, in Romania, again, massively down in terms of what it's able to deliver to their national grids, respectively. So they're also having to import fossil fuels and they're also rationing power. The irony, the dark irony in this story is, Ian, is that we hear constantly from fossil fuel companies saying, oh, net zero is going to lead to blackouts. No, what's going to lead to blackouts is climate change. The great solutions to climate change are hydroelectricity and nuclear power. And both of them are horribly compromised because of the drought across Europe. And I find it deeply, deeply distressing, partly because I think the Danube is one of the most spectacular waterways in the world. And for anybody who's interested in great literature and misses him very much, AA Gill wrote the most superb piece of journalism on the Danube. Can you tell me where the Danube starts, Ian?

[Ian Dale]

I'm going to guess somewhere in Romania.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Absolutely. I'm Gonna have to clip this bit as well. Absolute fail. I clearly.

[Ian Dale]

Well, it's somewhere down that end. Because it comes out up the rind, doesn't it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, it doesn't flow that way. It flows the other way.

[Ian Dale]

It flows the other way. So where does it start?

[Tessa Dunlop]

What? It starts in the Black Forest in Germany.

[Ian Dale]

I used to live in the Black Forest.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Jesus. What were you doing?

[Ian Dale]

Really? So the Rhine falls. No, they're the Rhine Falls, not the Danube falls.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Are you sure you've got this right? Two different rivers, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

I know, but they can't be like the Ryan and the Danube going through, can there?

[Tessa Dunlop]

This is the Black Forest and this stream is the start of the danube. I'm quoting A.A. gill. This is the furthest you can get get from its final deboucher. Debouch. 202,860 kilometers away to the east. That's 1,775 miles of river. How many countries does it water on its winding way from Germany? Actually 10, because it borders and goes through a total of 10 countries. Can you name five? Now you've worked out it starts in Germany and ends in somewhere like Romania.

[Ian Dale]

Germany. Romania. Switzerland.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No.

[Ian Dale]

Austria?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes.

[Ian Dale]

Czech Republic.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Actually. Slovakia.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, near enough. Hungary?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. Through Budapest.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. Where I went to Budapest in 1990 just to see wall was coming down. They're building the first McDonald's while I was there.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, given your ability with geography, I've already mentioned one very.

[Ian Dale]

Bulgaria.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes, yes. And I wanted to particularly stop on Belgrade because AA Gill travels down the Danube. That's where he meets his old or great adventurers swinging their booty and has the most fantastic time. You can't at the moment take cruises down the Danube because they're all getting stuck in the silt. And of course, tourism. Who's going to take a risk with a cruise down the Danube in the next 10, 20 years? No one is, are they? The whole thing's been upended. It's also a great waterway for crops, not just for tourists. These are desperate times. Of course, we're not reporting about it in our press at the moment. Really.

[Ian Dale]

I, I don't understand why I didn't know about the Danube in the Black Forest. Because I've just looked it up and it begins. The, the source of it, the Kvela, as they say in German, is at Donor Eschingen, a town I've actually been to.

[Tessa Dunlop]

What were you doing?

[Ian Dale]

I don't know. I, I. It's bizarre, isn't it, though? I didn't realize that. So the Donau.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Anyway, people, historians, beyond the sort of crisis that is the climate, have got very excited because on the Serbian dried out riverbed they found this SS Nazi.

[Ian Dale]

And. And the hydrological source is the spring of Breg near Futwangen, which I. A friend of mine was a teacher there and I used to go and stay there for many weekends.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You see lights on. This is what I wanted to bring to the Jeremy vine show this morning and somehow I managed to.

[Ian Dale]

It's too highbrow for the Jeremy Vine Show.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I got it in. You can be assured that I wanged it in somewhere around the chewing gum debate. I just smashed it. By the. Daniel. I probably blotted my coffee book for at least a month. But he goes to Belgrade, so he goes down through the countries. He reminds us of the marvel that is Vienna. This is where, you know, the Ottomans bashed on the. The Viennese gates and they repelled them and, and that's why, by the way, the croissant in Vienna is the. The half moon, the crescent shape inspired by the Ottomans. Little beautiful details that you wouldn't have known or thought about. The Turks also left coffee and in Vienna. He then goes to Belgrade, which is far more thumping and masculine and he's pretty unimpressed. Anyway, it's the capital of Serbia, Post. Most people, I hope, will know, except for Ian Dale, obviously, and he's all right.

[Ian Dale]

Look, listen, can we just agree that you have scored a victory on that one. I'm quite happy to accept that, but I scored a victory earlier on, so, yes, it's a one one score draw in this podcast.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Will we just celebrate our communal ignorance?

[Ian Dale]

I think we probably should. Why do people even listen to this? Because we both give out false information, don't we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, but I think hopefully most of the time we correct each other. That's the advantage from having someone outside your echo chamber.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, take note, Roy Stewart.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, yeah, indeed. So, anyway, he talks to a local in Belgrade, looking out from their castle, and he is told proudly by a guide that Serbia, Belgrade in particular had. Has been bombarded five times in the 20th century. He said, the extraordinary thing is the guide's clearly really proud of this. Bombarded twice in the First World War, which a gill is at pains to point out, the Serbians started by the Austrians, first they're bombarded, and then they're bombarded a second time by the Germans. Then Belgrade is bombarded twice in the Second World War, first by the Germans, then by the Allies, and finally who bombarded Serbia, more specifically Belgrade. In the 1990s.

[Ian Dale]

NATO indeed.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yay. You did it. You made it. Victory.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, God. We could. While we're at. While we're ahead, I think we should stop here and then do loads of questions on Thursday, because we're going to be recording two podcasts on Thursday, aren't we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. Am I allowed to do a tiny bit more on the Danube on Thursday? There's just so much I want to talk about, you know, the absence, the great absence of Jewish culture all along the Danube. This is where the European Jews predominantly lived, their wonderful music, the great thinkers of Vienna, etc, they were all Jewish and there's hardly any Jews now. All through that main archery, European artery. And so much of the civilization, the culture, culture that's been inherited and that's moved forward has been. Has been thanks to their presence. And it's a great tragedy and a great loss in the 20th century. And the loss in the 21st century is actually the goddamn water.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I. I think we'll also spare the listeners my travel experiences from going from Malvern to Birmingham International Airport and

[Tessa Dunlop]

then almost as far as going down.

[Ian Dale]

I didn't actually have any disasters because normally I have. I can tell a tale of disaster. The only. I had a near one one. Well, you know when you go through all the airport security and you have to take your belt off and put it all through, Normally my bag always gets shoved to the side so they have to search. It didn't this time. So I put all my stuff, got all my stuff out of the tray thing, then put it in the. On the pile because I thought I was being helpful. And then the woman who was about to put another load of things on the pile, she picked out my AirPods, which I'd left in the tray and I gave a very, very warm thank you to her. So let's finish on that warm note, shall we?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yes. And just to say, I'm so fascinated by the idea that you always think your suitcase is singled out. Do you think everyone thinks their suitcase is singled out? That sort of feeling of doom, it's

[Ian Dale]

like, no, but it genuinely is, though. I would say eight times out of 10, usually because I've left, I've got a tube of something or a bottle of Fanta or whatever. It's my own fault, obviously, but it happens far too regularly to be a coincidence.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's the same feeling I used to have in primary school when I was worried I wouldn't be picked for the Rounders team.

[Ian Dale]

Now, round us, there's. There is it Rounders is a bit. Actually, I quite like round us, but it is a bit pointless, isn't it? But not as pointless as netball. Have you ever played a more pointless sport than netball?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I wasn't English enough to play netball. We didn't really do it in Scotland, but I just remember loving rounders and I don't really understand where it's gone. Like, neither of my daughters know what round does it is.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, talking of your daughters, you haven't bragged yet. Come on, Mara. It's unbelievable what she's done.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's because I'm not exactly sure what she's won, but she went.

[Ian Dale]

You're such a good mother, aren't you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

She went to Florida. And the only way I know what's going on is because There's a parents WhatsApp group to which I'm not part of, but Dan is part of. And occasionally he'll take a photograph and stick it across to me on my WhatsApp. And she won a medal. She's speaking at NASA about the moon. She was part of a team, so it wasn't a medal exclusively for her, but they won a medal. She comes back tomorrow and hopefully she'll be making a moon landing feasible for the billions of inhabitants of the planet. Because just to end on this note,

[Ian Dale]

we go to the moon.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, yeah. We may need a second home. I said that to my climate denying a movie mogul friend, Florin Hembunkle, whatever. Don was Mark, who directed the Light of Others and has a house in la, and he lives next door to Stallone, Sylvester Stallone, and he's a somebody who doesn't worry about the climate. And I said, Jesus, mate, we're all gonna have to come and drink out of your pool in a minute. You know, people like that just. They just look the other way and then they make films about it.

[Ian Dale]

And she's turned it around to climate change yet again. Climate change is the new Romania. On the Where Politics Meets History podcast. We have lots of questions for Thursday, but we can never have enough enough. So if you'd like to send us some more. Where politics meetshistoryglobal.com is the email address and you can leave questions on the Instagram account and Tessa will take careful note of them, ones that agree with her.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, I will. And there's a lovely guy called Chris who I was at university with, who listens regularly, who writes these postcards to his work colleagues and he wants me to read one of them out. Actually, Chris, you need to edit it slightly because for Ian and I to ramble on as long as we do to read another essay out, I think would. Would test me.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, restrict yourselves to two four line paragraphs because anything longer than that we're not going to read out. So. Just saying.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But that sounds mean, doesn't it? It's only.

[Ian Dale]

No, because.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Only because they don't. They don't fit on the screen.

[Ian Dale]

Well, also you just. You. You can't have essays on a podcast. It just doesn't. I mean, I know we talk in essays. Oh, missed call. Nicola Sturgeon.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh.

[Ian Dale]

Anyway, so. Because she's my. She. Well, just apro pro of Nicola Sturgeon, obviously. My first guest on Saturday at the Edinburgh Fringe. Tickets still available if you'd like to come. And she will be. She and I will be signing our respective books after the event. Go to the Edinburgh Fringe website or you can get the details on my website too. And I would love to see you there and do say hello afterwards. And we've got West Streeting. And now I can actually, I can do all this on Thursday, can't I?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, just quickly. Somebody did say, can you release more Kemi Badenoch tickets? That's how loyal I am to you, Ian.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that. Well, there's plenty because we've upgraded it into a bigger room.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, well, he seems to think you'd sold out, but it's good that there's plenty.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, that. Oh, can you ask him to get in touch with me? Because I wonder why he thinks that

[Tessa Dunlop]

I'll have to rake through my inbox. But for you, Ian, anything. When I'm not thinking about climate change, I'll just find time to.

[Ian Dale]

Time to go and be well. Indeed, indeed. Goodbye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Love you.

[Ian Dale]

This has been a global production.