149. Arday in the Life

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Where Politics Meets History

Episode 149: “Arday in the Life”

Hosts: Iain Dale & Dr. Tessa Dunlop
Release Date: August 7, 2026
Theme: Examining the parallels between current news and historical context, with a focus on the Jason Arday controversy, political scandals, and the complexities of rehabilitation, redemption, and representation in public life.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the unfolding scandal surrounding Jason Arday—formerly the youngest black professor at Cambridge—and the broader implications for diversity, positive discrimination, academic standards, and minority representation. Iain and Tessa also discuss the recent controversy over a former neo-Nazi attempting to stand as a Tory council candidate, touching on themes of rehabilitation, forgiveness, and consistency in public policy. Sprinkled throughout is the duo’s signature wit, lively disagreement, and banter, spiced up by personal anecdotes and wider reflections on British society.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Jason Arday Scandal & Its Fallout

Background & Reactions

• Arday’s appointment as Cambridge’s youngest black professor is under scrutiny due to alleged discrepancies in his academic qualifications and personal claims ([12:28]–[19:20]).
• Resigned under pressure after media investigations and lack of exoneration from supportive outlets, like The Guardian.
• Raises questions about the “racism of low expectations” and whether standard academic vetting was bypassed in the name of diversity.

Notable Quotes

• Iain Dale [19:21]:
  “The issue was a sort of series, a tissue of lies. And, and the tragedy is, and I think it's two pronged … the largest guilty party… [is] Cambridge, the facilitators who gave him the platform because it is the racism of low expectations. And I would be rightly outraged if I was a member of the minoritized academic community.”
• Tessa Dunlop [21:53]:
  “Some would argue this is a natural consequence of positive discrimination… if you lower standards to allow a certain grouping… you get something like this happening in the end.”
• Tessa Dunlop [28:22]:
  “You have to understand it in a sense from Cambridge's point of view … they must have thought all their Christmases had come at once when … they met him because he is incredibly articulate and very convincing.”

Positive Discrimination Debate

• Iain and Tessa discuss whether positive discrimination inherently lowers standards or if it’s only when applied improperly.
• Iain Dale [22:26]:
  “Positive discrimination, as far as I’ve been led to understand, is when there’s a black and a white candidate of equal ability, and the black candidate, for example… is chosen.”
• Nuanced exploration on how well-meaning diversity initiatives can potentially undermine confidence and “fuel racism” if not executed properly.

Wider Minority Implications

• Discussion on how such scandals may impact already-fragile minority representation in academia.
• Iain Dale [30:11]:
  “He’s let down people with autism by immediately pulling in his autism, suggesting that tendency … towards mimicry might explain some of the academic discrepancies in his work. So, yeah, he's let down vulnerable groups.”

Scrutiny, Accountability & Media Treatment

• Iain notes that scrutiny was justified due to public claims, whereas Tessa stresses personal responsibility:
  Tessa Dunlop [27:50]:
  “No, no, people have to take responsibility for their actions. If I'd done that, I would have. I mean, he has taken responsibility because he's resigned in the end.”

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2. Holidays & Public Figures: Andy Burnham, Political Tradition, and Press Double-Standards

• Lighthearted discussion on politicians and public scrutiny when taking holidays ([01:10]–[06:00]).
• Mentions of historical prime ministers’ holiday habits and public/media expectations versus personal well-being.
• Kicks off with jokes about Iain broadcasting from an Irish hotel and banter about being “on holiday”.

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3. Money, Power, and Political Influence

• Quick detour into the lifestyles and perceived money obsession of Labour/right-leaning politicians (e.g., Blairs, Mandelson).
• Iain Dale [05:32]:
  “There is a real sort of overlap between the Blairs and royalty… the Blair’s great weakness was money.”
• Recap of party funding, Farage's financial backers, and speculation on Green Party finances ([06:44]–[09:31]).

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4. The Power of Eloquence in Politics

• Examination of the outsized value placed on debaters and orators in the “clickbait era”, including problematic figures like Charlie Downs and, by association, Jason Arday ([34:16]–[36:41]).
• Iain Dale [34:16]:
  “…the ability to convince with a verbal dexterity has, I think, in our new clickbait era, where it's all about the short form and making an impact in 90 seconds become far too valued, I would say, overvalued… people will believe you, even if what you're saying doesn't stack up or is particularly unpalatable. And I think that's really worrying.”

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5. Language, Inclusion, and Exclusion

• Short segment on Welsh and Irish language policy as a metaphor for inclusion/exclusion and cultural identity ([12:49]–[15:04], [13:06]–[14:31]).
• Iain notes there are “twice as many Romanian speakers in Britain than there are Welsh speakers” ([14:07]), stirring banter.

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6. Scandal & Redemption: The “Crew Kern Man” (Joshua Bonehill-Payne) and Forgiveness

Background

• Bonehill-Payne, once convicted for neo-Nazi offenses and anti-Semitic harassment, applied to be a Conservative council candidate after publicly renouncing his past ([37:23]–[42:31]).
• Supported—cautiously—by Kemi Badenoch, who argues for his involvement in commission work on radicalization.
• Jewish groups, including victims like Luciana Berger, refuse to meet him or accept rehabilitation.

Key Debates

• Iain and Tessa compare this case to redemption narratives on the left (e.g., Matthew Collins, ex-Nazi turned Hope Not Hate campaigner).
• The hosts discuss the demand for consistency: is true rehabilitation possible, and does political advantage color our willingness to forgive?
• Tessa Dunlop [43:53]:
  “They refuse to meet him, which I think is really wrong of them… I think that's just wrong-headed. If you don't talk to people, you can't understand them, can you?”
• Iain Dale [45:56]:
  “I think it's perhaps predictable and you knew it. But I wonder if we'd be having this conversation if… the hate he'd meted out was against Muslim people.”

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7. Rehabilitation, Prison Policy, and Consistency

• Broader discussion about the philosophy and effectiveness of the UK’s incarceration system, victim empathy versus societal benefit, and who “should” be released early ([46:56]–[50:41]).
• Iain Dale [47:27]:
  “We are always talking about punishment and not rehabilitation. And I do query one high. We, I think lock up 83 people in a hundred thousand and on the continent… 139th person. So we have a far higher incarceration rate and I don't believe we're morally worse people.”
• Tessa advocates alternatives to imprisonment, especially for non-violent or white-collar crimes:
  Tessa [51:12]:
  “What good did it do society to put him [Jeffrey Archer] in prison for three years? Wouldn't it have been better if we'd been able to fine him £10 million?”

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Notable Moments & Banter

• Cultural asides:
  • Margaret Thatcher’s famous dislike of holidays ([04:35]).
  • Anecdotes about Irish hot-bedding and property crises ([15:04]).
• Banter:
  • “Time for a break, wanker.” — Tessa at [31:01], after a cheeky disagreement about Romanian language uptake and climate debate priorities.
  • Running gags about live events, audience book signings, and Iain possibly bunking off for a lover ([01:34], [10:57]).
• Meta-commentary:
  • Iain ironically notes the episode’s time-bias:
    “We've just spent 20 minutes talking about it because you wanted to. Not me.” ([30:11])

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Important Timestamps

• [12:28] – Listener letter sparks Arday discussion
• [19:21] – Iain’s summary of Arday’s failings and Cambridge’s responsibility
• [21:53] – Positive discrimination explored
• [27:36] – On due diligence and accountability with respected institutions
• [34:16] – Short-form media’s problematic impact on politics
• [37:23] – Crew Kern man/Neo-Nazi redemption debate opens
• [46:56] – Rehabilitation, prison policy, and gender in incarceration

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Summary & Takeaways

• Jason Arday: The scandal exposes tensions between equity initiatives and public trust, revealing risks for both minority representation and academic reputation. There’s strong critique—across political lines—of both individual and institutional failures.
• Redemption & Rehabilitation: Both the Bonehill-Payne controversy and prison debates probe the boundaries of forgiveness, rehabilitation, and what actual “justice” looks like in public life.
• Eloquence ≠ Truth: The power to persuade doesn’t always equate with honesty or qualification, especially in an age of soundbites and social media.
• Society’s Contradictions: The episode highlights recurring historical patterns: the clash between public opinion and fair process, the lure and suspicion of money in politics, and the constant battle over national identity and language.
• Banter & Insight: True to form, Tessa and Iain blend sharp, sometimes acerbic commentary with wry jokes and relatable tangents.

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Transcript

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[Ian Dale]

This is a global production. This case of Jason Arday. I would beg the question, what individual has errors or discrepancies in his PhD and then goes on to become not just a professor but a professor at Cambridge? Were the standards lowered so this man could become this flagship? Very impressive young professor who performs incredibly well on the media. Well, Cambridge, aren't I looking into it? But I do see the primary guilty party as Cambridge if they didn't uphold.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The primary guilty party is Jason Arde.

[Ian Dale]

No, I would say it's his facilitators actually for allowing this to happen. There's always going to be people who are going to play the system.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, no, no. People have to take responsibility for their actions. Hello and welcome to this special Andy Burnham's on holiday edition of Where Polit its history with Tessa Dunlop and me, Ian Dale. Now he's going on holiday or has gone on holiday. I'm sort of on holiday. You though, are not going on holiday, are you?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, you've bunked off. According to Lee Anderson or Kemi Badenock, Andy Burnham's run away. Meanwhile, Ian hiding in Ireland. In the backdrop of this zoom image is a crumpled bed sheet. Have you just fallen out of bed with a lover?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have just got up, but sans louver, I'm afraid, because at my age, at my age, I mean, frankly, that sort of thing doesn't really happen.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, bollocks. I've worked with enough hundred year old veterans to know that that is the last thing to die in a man.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, is it?

[Ian Dale]

Incredibly.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, that's good. I'll bear that in mind. Well, you're seeing my crumpled bed sheets because if I turn around the other way, you'll be looking at a car park. Because I'm at the Imperial Hotel in Cork, which let me tell you, is quite something. It's a real old empire hotel, done up beautifully and I think it was the, the center of rebellion in. I haven't actually delved into this yet, but it was. Cork obviously has been a very rebellious place in the past.

[Ian Dale]

So hang on, that is absolutely typical. That is why we don't want Andy Burnham to be on holdy. There's Ian not bringing the history to the podcast, despite being in a histor because he's on motherfucking holiday. Why have you bothered turning up at all, mate?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, out of the goodness of my heart, I couldn't let down the dear listeners.

[Ian Dale]

Do you think that's what Andy Burnham is going to be saying? I haven't really given social policy any thought, but I have the goodness of my heart. I'm attending this.

[Medical Disclaimer Speaker]

He's.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's getting a bit of flack, isn't he, for going on holiday, which I always think is really unfair on politicians, because do we want a tired person leading the country? No, we don't. So therefore, I think it's good that politicians recharge their batteries. However, let me put the other side of the case here, because he has only been Prime Minister for, what, three weeks, and you think, well, couldn't he waited a little bit longer, maybe done it at the end of August?

[Ian Dale]

Well, he's. First of all, it's the silly season, isn't it? That's what he'll be thinking. He's banking on us all looking the other way. I would suggest, actually, there's a lot kicking off this August, so it isn't a normal silly season. But I suppose the argument for is that he's had an exhausting campaign, the make a field campaign, then he arrives in Westminster, then he's rejiggling and moving house. Arguably, a bit of a breather will help the bandwidth, but he won't really be on holiday. And that slightly worries me. As someone who wrote a book proposal in a campsite, it perhaps wasn't my finest piece of work. Ian, I'm going to be honest.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I have been also book proposaling this week a little bit, but I'm nowhere near finished mine.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, but it's a dilemma. In the olden days, you went on holiday and no one could contact you if you were Burnham in Bay Ritz. By the way, the press have him down as Burnham in Benidorm. Where do we think he's gone?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'd be appalled if he hadn't gone to Blackpool or Morecambe.

[Ian Dale]

He's not stayed in Britain. Come on, let's just be honest there. Let's just, like, own this.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Margaret Thatcher used to. She used to go to Cornwall. Do you remember that picture of her walking a little King Charles spaniel along a beach and she was, like, being pulled along by it, but she hated holidays. She always wanted to go home. They did go. They used to go to stay with someone in Switzerland, I think. But it would literally be for less than a week and she was just itching to get back and just hated having nothing to do.

[Ian Dale]

Didn't Edward Heath sort of sail around the coast?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, he was a, a sailor. Don't impute anything from that. I don't know. I can't remember where John Major used to go. I don't imagine it was anywhere very exciting. Of course the Blairs used to go to rich people's houses. Remember they went to Silvio Bellas Cluny's place in Italy once and then they, they, they got Cliff Richards villa in Barbados. And I, I can't remember the exact story about that but I think he was sort of almost forced into letting them have it.

[Ian Dale]

I know it's a bit like Prince Harry. There is a real sort of overlap between the Blairs and royalty. Harry hung out always with Elton John in his villa because that's where he met his very expensive lawyer. So we all know that the Blair's great weakness was money. And I think that's why he gave a preponderance of power to Mandelson because Mandelson, his great weakness was money. It's always interesting that sort of right of center part of the Labour Party has a sort of undeclared, well, obsession with money.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You can't say the whole of the right of the Labor Party.

[Ian Dale]

No, but there's a tendency.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Roy Hattersley didn't.

[Ian Dale]

No, but there's a tendency therein.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think, look, there are some politicians who get beguiled by rich people and money and it's. Look, if you get like for example, do you remember when George Osborne and Peter Mandelson had a falling out because he was on Derepasker's yacht and I think George Osborne happened to be in the area and that they met up and then Mandelson went and blubbed, blabbed about it, probably blubbed as well. And Osborne was furious with him for that. And I don't blame him because I mean what, what, what happens on tour stays on tour, doesn't it, Tessa?

[Ian Dale]

It does indeed. I would never be indiscreet about any untoward activities when off campus.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Have you ever been invited by someone to go on holiday which basically they've paid for?

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, and it makes me feel quite compromised. And then I sort of have that feeling of social and financial debt. I don't enjoy it at all. On the subject of money, of course. The biggest one is Nigel Farage at the moment. What's interesting is, I think we.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He's not on holiday, is he? He's at the by election.

[Ian Dale]

Well, yeah, I know, exactly. He's arguing with a bit.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah. You see, we've now mentioned two of the candidates. I don't think on podcasts we're regulated in that way, are we? Because otherwise I'd have to read out 34 candidates.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, we don't have to, because another big shall remain nameless podcast interviewed the Bin, who, by the way, is fluent in Ancient Greek and could sort of contest with. Yeah, Homeric levels of Greek that's being spouted.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Nobody really. Language.

[Ian Dale]

No, he's a very establishment candidate, it turns out. I think he's classically educated and a friend of a certain Rury Stewart. But anyway, lucky he wears a large bin on his head if he's trying to go down well in Essex. But how dare you?

[Tessa Dunlop]

How dare you issue that great calumny on God's own county of Essex.

[Ian Dale]

No, I was just.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That's where I come from.

[Ian Dale]

I wasn't suggesting they like rubbish. I was suggesting that they might not go for a classically educated establishment player. That's all. Because remember that Nigel Farage appeals to them because he claims he's unestablishment just quickly on money. To be fair to Labour, it's interesting how I hold members of the Labour Party who have an affection for the filthy loot to higher standards than I do. Nigel Farage, who I just assume, of course will be lured by big bucks.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I mean, let's put it this way, his whole career has been. His whole political career has been funded by big bucks. But then again, all political parties are funded by big bucks, whether. Whether it comes from individuals or trade unions. And if you go into Ukip days, Aaron Banks bankrolled Ukip to a big extent. There were plenty of other donors too.

[Ian Dale]

Who's funding the Green Party at the moment?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No idea.

[Ian Dale]

No, they're doing quite well, aren't they? I just wonder, are they just relying on donations from their rapidly multiplying membership?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not sure. It is rapidly multiplying at the moment. I think it was in Zach Polanski's first few months, but I think they've hit a bit of a brick wall. I'm actually really. I know you're going to grimace now because I'm going to plug my Edinburgh show with him, which is on Saturday afternoon, but I am going to quiz him about that, because although he's emerged into the media in the last couple of days. A bit more. He was actually on my show last night with Simon Marx. I get the feeling that he's lost a bit of his self confidence.

[Ian Dale]

I get the feeling that maybe the Green Party now is actually having to address a climate crisis or the tangible effects of a climate crisis, suddenly finds itself it' of tautological. But the Green Party's been too green. Maybe.

[Tessa Dunlop]

But why has it taken them over? What's. When. When did all of this hot weather start? It's been going on for like two months, hasn't it? Why has it taken him until this week to address the climate crisis, as you would call it? Yeah, I just said that to wind you up.

[Ian Dale]

Good. We've got a lot of questions on that which we're going to have to spread out over several podcasts so that I don't. Oh, Disproportionately address the biggest issue facing humankind.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, let's take a short break and we will be back. And we want to. Well, let tell people what we're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about Jason Arday, this Cambridge academic who, well, has faced all sorts of different accusations. We're going to talk about Crew Kern man, this former neo Nazi who was going to stand as a Tory council candidate and now isn't. And can be badenok's reaction to that.

[Ian Dale]

He's a friend of yours, isn't he? Or at least you've interviewed him.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I interviewed him once, yes. It's not a friend. I don't. I don't become friends with people just because I interview them once, Tessa. I'm a bit more hard to get than that.

[Ian Dale]

You mean you're not interviewing him at the end of Fringe this year? No, no. Former Neo Nazis.

[Tessa Dunlop]

One of the few people that I'm not.

[Ian Dale]

What a surprise.

[Tessa Dunlop]

We've now sold more tickets than any other year I've done this.

[Ian Dale]

Wow. Must be all the plugging you've been doing on this podcast.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I don't know, but a lot of people who listen to the podcast say they're coming and I hope people who do listen to the podcast do come and then say hello, because after each show I always go down into the EICC foyer and talk to people. I'm not grand and obviously I should be. Hopefully sign my books as will Nicola Sturgeon and Gianna Cherry.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, gosh. Save your pennies, girls and boys. It's all kicking off in Edinburgh.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Right, break.

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[Tessa Dunlop]

We should explain we are going to be recording the live podcast next week. It's the following week where the I think that week there will be two pre records and then the last week of the month Tessa will be recording with a star guest contributor.

[Ian Dale]

It depends. Might have to scrape the local barrel at LBC. Apply for a bin. There might be one available post 13th of August. Anyway, we are just going to quickly kick off if you don't mind this section with Jason Arday, courtesy of a comment from a listener who has got in contact, Thom Watson. Tessa, just to say th I know,

[Tessa Dunlop]

but it's still Tom.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, is it? Okay, I didn't know that. Is that a Welsh spelling?

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have no idea, but I'm sure it's Tom.

[Ian Dale]

Okay.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Just he was a regular contributor to for the Many.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, was he? Great. Well, he still listens. And just to let you know that on Welsh, because it's forefront in my mind given I'm campaigning for Romanian GCSE, they only have 500,000 Welsh speakers in Wales, despite the most staggering amount of money that's been spent on trying to reboot Welsh.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, that's quite interesting in Ireland that sort of Gaelic the all of the road signs have Gaelic on, but very few people really speak it sort of I think only on the west coast they speak it sort of mostly. And there's quite a bit of antipathy to the Irish language here in a way which I was quite surprised by.

[Ian Dale]

I think the problem with the language, if you don't speak it, you feel excluded and therefore you do feel a bit of antipathy and it feels rude when people speak a language you don't understand in front of you when you know they can speak your language, which is one of the reasons why English English as such a pollutant. But I was interested to know with Plaid Cymru in power of course in Wales, now that they've got this target, are we allowed to call it of needing 1 million Welsh speakers and there's a bit of me that thinks I understand that it is their native language but also it's very counter to the. It's swimming against the tide, if you like. There are, dare I say it, twice as many Romanian speakers in Britain than there are Welsh speakers.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Here she goes.

[Ian Dale]

I know that won't go down well,

[Tessa Dunlop]

you see in, in Ireland you have to study Gaelic. Well, I don't know if they call it Gaelic because they also now call it Irish. So let's call it Irish, it's easier. They have to study it at school and if they don't pass the exam, 16, was it? 18. They. You can't go to university unless you've got an Irish language qualification.

[Ian Dale]

Well, that's why there's antipathy, presumably, because not everyone wants to be forced into studying something. It's a bit like the reverse of what happened when the Welsh were forced not to speak Welsh. You know, they had the, I can't remember what it's called the mantle put on their shoulders in the schoolyard as a sort of punishment for speaking Welsh in classroom.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Really?

[Ian Dale]

Yes, because there was this anglification of Wales which is why it's a. It's a counter corrective, if you like. It is hugely political and historic. That's why the Welsh are so obsessed with getting their language back up and running because it was beaten out of them.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Now here's something that, to get you going. I was talking to someone in Dublin and they were saying that they were a student and they went to look for a new flat to live in because I mean the housing situation in Dublin is just the same as it is in London. It's really expensive. Anyway, he went to this flat, really lovely kitchen, lovely bathrooms, two bedrooms, knew it was going to be a flat share and then was shown the bedroom and the person showing him around the flat said, oh, and you'll be sleeping on that side of the bed, can you imagine? And apparently this is quite normal in, in Dublin that I've. I've never heard of that before.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I know just from the migrant community that hot bedding is really, really common and bed sharing because of the cost of accommodation and Ireland is under this sort of financial pressure cooker, isn't it? Lots of new money, lots of investment, but also huge crowding and accommodation issues in Dublin as a result. You're lucky you, maybe you do have a companion in your bedding and you just haven't admitted it, hence those.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Would you like me to put the camera around so you can show that I am here in this room on my own, whether I was last Night is another matter, but at the moment the bed is empty. That was a joke, by the way, everybody. John's husband John does not listen to this podcast for a very good reason.

[Ian Dale]

I'm going back to Tom Watson now because we've deviated in classic Ian and Tessa style. He says Tessa, just to say the clip of you on Jeremy vine because this story's been bubbling since the weekend about Jason. Our day the youngest ever black professor at Cambridge University appointed when he was 37 years old. He just resigned in the last 24 hours. But pre to his oh, he has resigned. Yeah, he's resigned pre to his resignation. There was this increasing pressure even the Guardian had to write or felt compelled to write this excruciatingly long three page feature which effectively failed to exonerate him. And if the Guardian's given up on you as the youngest ever black professor appointed at Cambridge University, then the writing's probably on the wall. Anyway, Tom writes just the clip of you on Jeremy vine because we were discussing it because Jeremy vine was obsessed by it. It's got to be said all weekend he'd been following this story. He said the clip of you and Jeremy vine doing the rounds on Jason Arday is the best summation of the whole thing. I wasn't aware there was a clip so I sent it to you. Ian, he writes slap bang in the center, acknowledging the impact of what this does I. E. This appointment of a black professor without sufficient scrutiny, which is effectively what the accusation has been. He says what this does to minority groups and the fuel it gives to racism, as well as criticizing those gleeful pat on the back trying hard not to use the word woke is well placed here. Elites are guilty of the racism of low expectations. He then finishes as a gay man, I know what it's like to feel a pattern, to feel like a pet to people at times. So well done, well put, love. Listening to the pod says Tom.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I wasn't aware of the minutiae of this story and maybe you're better in a moment just explain what the background is. But I remembered seeing this guy on Question Time quite a few years ago and being really impressed by him. Very articulate, very plausible and and I rem thinking well good on you mate. Because I knew that he was the first black professor and I think you're that Tom was absolutely right there and you got it bang on on Jeremy vine because I was wondering what what you what your stance would be to be honest, because I think naturally you you would probably your natural instinct would be to defend him in some way. But it is indefensible. There are so many things now that we can see that he's lied about and you can't get away with that. It doesn't matter whether you're black, white or whatever. You can away with the certainly in the world of academia or you shouldn't be allowed to get away with all of this. And of course, the initial reaction from some other, shall we say, people who should have known better was to say, oh, this is just racism on the part of the media and it just is not. I mean, you just explain all of the things that he's been accused of which he's been found to have lied over.

[Ian Dale]

The first thing is, and Kehindi Andrews was on the Today program this morning, he has been made redundant by Birmingham City University because there hasn't been sufficient uptake of the Black Studies MA from what I'm led to understand and because we know funding for tertiary education has been slashed. Now, he would point out that less than 1% of professorships, something like 36 or 26,000 of them in Britain, are occupied by black people, even fewer now because both these two respective men have ceased to be professors in the last 48 hours. I think it is important to bear that in mind. There was clearly significant pressure on Cambridge University to recruit more professors of color. They had very few and he stood out because of his youth as well as his color. The issue was a sort of series, a tissue of lies. And, and the tragedy is, and I think it's two pronged and I see as the, the largest guilty party, if this proves to be the case, as being Cambridge, the facilitators who gave him the platform because it is the racism of low expectations. And I would be rightly outraged if I was a member of the minoritized academic community. And as, as one academic professor said that a very fragile group at the moment, where funding and the kind of political pressures placed on them, not just here but in America, mean that they feel understandably imperiled. So this case of Jason Arday actually exacerbates their fragility, that vulnerability. And so I feel angry that, that he's kind of blotted their copy book, if you like, but more so that Cambridge appointed an individual without sufficient scrutiny, his John Hopkins PhD. Now, if it wasn't plagiarized, there's questions over that the University of John Hopkins standby his PhD. There were clearly academic errors in it. And I would beg the question, what individual has errors or discrepancies in his PhD, and then goes on to become not just a professor but a professor at Cambridge. So were the standards lowered so that this man could become this flagship, very impressive young professor who performs incredibly well on the media. And that does beg questions about a two tier system. And there's a deep irony about an underprivileged sector of society being more privileged in these rarefied academic institutions. And whether that is the case or

[Tessa Dunlop]

was the case case, some would argue this is a natural consequence of positive discrimination where if you lower standards to allow a certain grouping, it doesn't matter whether it's an ethnic grouping or whatever, if you say, well, we want to have more of this, these sorts of people in our institution, therefore we're going to let them in with lower grades, inevitably you get something like this happening in the end.

[Ian Dale]

But hang on a minute, you just said that positive discrimination lowers standards.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I think it can do. I'm not saying it always does, but it can do it. Sure, of course it should, shouldn't, but it does.

[Ian Dale]

Because the point is, it's positive discrimination, as far as I've been led to understand, is when there's a black and a white candidate of equal pegging and equal ability, and the black candidate, for

[Tessa Dunlop]

example, or the female, it can be that way. Yeah, I mean, that's what, that's one way of doing it. But there are plenty of examples, not that I can think of any at the moment, but there are plenty of examples, I think, where people have been either given jobs or, or given places on a course where they haven't met the academic qualifications that their peers have. Now inevitably, I mean, you can argue that's good because it then makes the course more diverse, but inevitably it makes it more difficult for those candidates when they're actually doing the course. And then if they fail to meet the standards of the course and then they get lower class degrees at the end of it, the whole institution suffers because the average mark has been lowered. So therefore the next year's intake, they might be doing easier exams because the, the university or college or whatever needs to keep their place in the league table. This is the pernicious way these things work.

[Ian Dale]

Well, yeah, but you've made loads of assumptions then. You make it sound like it happens all the time.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I'm saying it, it happens. I'm not saying it happens all the time or everywhere, but you have to be aware of the dangers.

[Ian Dale]

What's interesting, the truth, I think, lies somewhere in the middle. I heard Kehindi Andrews and he Wasn't going to back down.

[Tessa Dunlop]

He wasn't going to suggest for a minute that man, I'll be careful what I say here. But how he ever became an academic I do not know. He is so blinded by his hatred of this country and his obsession with reparations that I'm not surprised he's lost his position.

[Ian Dale]

I don't think he's blinded by hatred of his country. I think he is slightly myopic about the way in which he bats for his black team effectively. And I understand that that's maybe how you feel. If you've grown up in pretty tough,

[Tessa Dunlop]

you would be the first to jump down my throat, wouldn't you?

[Ian Dale]

But without even realizing it, every day, every day when you go on the radio as a big white man, you bat for the white team without even realizing. No, but that is, it is the subconscious bias and all of us, I'm

[Tessa Dunlop]

sorry, that is such utter bollocks. Anyone that's ever listened to my radio show, in fact, I get accused of batting too far, not for the white team sometimes and giving the benefit of the doubt to people who possibly shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt to you. So don't give me that one on

[Ian Dale]

but I think there are interesting things going on. Kehindi would not concede that standards might have been lowered by Cambridge to allow this Jason Arday individual his position. Okay, that's the first thing. And I thought maybe if we could have had a little bit of nuance from Kendi, you know, the jury's out or let's see what the investigation says. His point is really effectively it was a pylon and he's going to stick by that. By the way, incidentally, Zach Polanski was the other one who signed an open letter of support. Kehinde Andrews, prominent black studies academic and Zach both signed it. I don't know where Zach stands on that. You might want to ask him on Saturday whether he would retract or withdraw his support of Jason Arde. I think the bigger question is if his PhD, his, his original university are still standing by his PhD. The other questions around his general honesty in the public domain are what's, I think pulled him under all sorts of extraordinary claims that he had this very underprivileged start in life. He couldn't speak. He was effectively non verbal for many years that subsequently in adult life he's written a book that he didn't in fact ever write that he was part of this very famous program seven up

[Tessa Dunlop]

where every seven years I used to watch that. And he wasn't on it.

[Ian Dale]

You see, he was effectively a Walter Mitty about much of his backstory, which is a tragedy because he was Enough, enough, clearly, as you said, loquacious, eloquent, a bright guy who had a PhD that his university is standing by. That's enough. You know, he didn't need to make up this kind of Walter Mitty lifestyle. Most extraordinary was his fundraising. He did lots of marathons. He claimed 600 miles in six days, which he subsequently.

[Tessa Dunlop]

With a broken leg.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, this. With a fractured tiber or fever or something. Doctor's fiber, femur, something like that. But doctors have said when they looked at the case, it's not outside the bounds of possibility that you might manage to run a marathon. But, you know, this guy isn't even an athlete, so. But Kehindi would say. But hang on a minute. Why are we asking questions of his private life? He's not a politician. He's not a public individual. Have you scrutinized the backgrounds of all the other academics of Cambridge? And so his retort is we're not giving him fair treatment.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, which again, is arterbollocks, because you only look into someone's background when you have an excuse to do so or they provide you with an excuse to do so. I don't think. Think that. I mean, if. If it was right at the beginning when he applied, I mean, I would regard that as part of the due diligence process. Well, that clearly didn't happen. So something has happened since then. I don't know what triggered this off, but if someone makes an accusation against someone that they've plagiarized their PhD, I mean, are they seriously suggesting that Cambridge shouldn't have looked into that? I mean, that. That's ridiculous.

[Ian Dale]

Well, Cambridge, aren't I looking into it? But I do see the primary guilty party as Cambridge, if they didn't uphold.

[Tessa Dunlop]

The primary guilty party. Is Jason Arden Day.

[Ian Dale]

No, I would say it's his facilitators, actually, for allowing this to happen. There's always going to be people who are going to play the system.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, no, people have to take responsibility for their actions. If I'd done that, I would have. I would. I would expect to. I mean, he has taken responsibility because he's resigned in the end.

[Ian Dale]

No, but he's not taking responsibility because he can't cope because of the pressures and everything that's been.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that what he said? So he hasn't admitted any of it?

[Ian Dale]

No, no, no, no. I don't think he has the minutiae of his statements that very much is a entrenched. You know, I just, you know, this, is this, this level of abuse I'd need, I don't want to quote him. You know, the thing is you have

[Tessa Dunlop]

to understand it in a sense from Cambridge's point of view because I mean I've done over the last 10, 12 years, I've done various phone ins on the fact that there are so few academics and indeed students or have been traditionally at Cambridge and Oxford. Now they have taken steps to rectify that and one of them will have been to recruit him and they must have thought all their Christmases had come at once when, when they met him because he is incredibly articulate and very convincing. So I, I'll have a little bit of understanding there that they were taken in just quickly.

[Ian Dale]

Even the police have had to sort of issue something of an apology because there was a journalist at the, I think Times Higher Education Supplement, Jack Gross Groves, who was doing an investigation into this academic and he sent a lengthy series of emails but none of them were harassing. They were just interrogatory in a way that a journalist is. And from what I gather our Day reported this journalistic inquisition or interrogation to the police and the police asked Jack Groves to cease and desist I. E. To stop being a journalist when it came to this particular academic. And they've had to say, well perhaps that was a little bit heavy handed. You know, if we're not allowed to ask questions of academics, the case is ripe pickings, rich pickings, of course, for the ever easily triggered. Right.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And what I feel, you see you've let yourself down there again. Why did you. It's nothing to do with easily triggered. Right.

[Ian Dale]

Well, they are lovely.

[Tessa Dunlop]

You as somebody on the left, I mean you were brilliant on Jeremy vine on it and you were really calm and you explained it all really, really well to somebody like me who hadn't. Because I'm not in the country, I'm not actually following it particularly, but you can't just sort of come out with blithe statements like that. Everyone across the political spectrum should be horrified by this.

[Ian Dale]

Yes, I think it's attracted an unprecedented amount of attention and I would suggest that's because of his color. I do feel he's let down vulnerable groups. We know that academics of color, the area of race studies, sociology, et cetera is already imperiled. This is the last thing they needed. He let down people with autism by immediately pulling him his autism, suggesting that tendency within that Condition towards mimicry might explain some of the academic discrepancies in his work. So, yeah, he's let down vulnerable groups, but at the same time, I do think disproportionate attention has been paid to it. We've just spent 20 minutes talking about it because you wanted to. Not me.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not me. The easily triggered. Right, you. The woke lefty. You were the one that wanted to talk about this, so don't give me any of your Tessa Dunlop.

[Ian Dale]

Meanwhile, the planet.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh, here we go. And so few people are learning Romanian anyway. Time for a break, wanker.

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[Ian Dale]

Now we put a clip out from one of our previous podcasts. You saying I was scaremongering and scaring people. To which Miranda Purkis of the Troll fame said, oh, wait, Ian doesn't want you. You could catastrophize about a catastrophe. But actually, I thought the broader point was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

It's interesting, by the way, it's. It's Marina.

[Ian Dale]

She won't mind. We're friends. It's interesting, Ian, that you accuse me, but not only me, that the climate lobby of scaremongering, when actually that's what the right does all the time. Farage. I heard Rupert Lowe of RESTORE on. On the radio this morning, apparently. And you say I decry British Britain. According to them, Britain's in the doldrums, you know, and it's all because of the Islama takeover of Britain.

[Tessa Dunlop]

They're totally fearful and I always criticize. And when they say that Britain is broken, yes, there are aspects of Britain that is broken, but Britain is not broken as a country in the way that you would normally use that expression. I think they. I mean generic. And a lot of reform people use this kind of language too, and I think it's disgraceful. You should not talk down your own country when there's no reason to. A lot of. A lot of the things in our country are absolutely brilliant and function very well. We just like to complain about everything and if something doesn't function well, fine. Point it out and say how you would rectify it. But that's the problem with them. And I mean, I was watching a clip that, an interview that Julia Harley Brewer did with Charlie Downs. Have you heard of Charlie Downs?

[Ian Dale]

Yes, I have. I think I've met him. Might I have met him?

[Tessa Dunlop]

You might have done. He is quite young, probably 24, 25, very articulate, and he describes himself as an ethno nationalist. And whatever subject you're talking to him about, he brings it back to the subject of the decline of the white population in, in Britain. And when you use words like white all the time in your argument, there is only one way to interpret that. I had him on cross question once and it was a profoundly uncomfortable experience. And I had to tell him to rein himself in at one point because every single question he would bring around to immigration or Muslim. And anyway, Julia was doing this interview with him and I don't think she'd ever come across him before, and she, she was genuinely shocked at some of the things he was saying. But he's, he's, he's very plausible and you can imagine that he, in 10 years time, he will be the new Rupert Lowe. And he's actually works for Rupert, his comms guy, and. Just let me finish. I, I have a real dilemma as to whether we should be giving people like that a platform.

[Ian Dale]

It's interesting, in this podcast alone, you have commended Jason Arday's loquacious ability to speak in perfect sentences and likewise Charlie Downs. Very different opposing social spectrums. But that ability to convince with a verbal dexterity has, I think, in our new clickbait era, where it's all about the short form and making an impact in 90 seconds become far too valued, I would say, overvalued. It is arguably the reason we don't have Keir Starmer and we do have Andy Burnham, that actually, if you're unable to be convincing within a matter of moments, simply through the way in which you spring a sentence together, you're not going to cut it, you're not going to make it, and, and actually, worse than that, people will believe you, even if what you're saying doesn't stack up or is particularly unpalatable. And I think that's really worrying. I'm going to be honest, I think it's really worrying.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I mean, the ability to express yourself, the ability to debate, the ability to argue has always been at the forefront of political success, and there have been plenty of politicians who haven't had that ability of being successful. But I would say you're more likely to get on in whatever line of work you're in if you can express yourself articulately.

[Ian Dale]

For sure. But the way.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Is that even a word articulately?

[Ian Dale]

Probably not, but we'll gloss over it. But if you think that the sort of the growth of the mass media which really happened at the. From the early 20th century, so the last hundred plus years has seen the premium given to the spoken word exponentially increase. So you get the advent of radio between the wars. You then get Churchill as this orator as he was perceived to be. I would argue that was only possible because of technological advancement. You then get the invention of television. But actually what's happened in the last 20 years with these short form videos. So the democratizing of the way in which we spread the word. So you don't actually need a qualification, you know, you don't actually need to be a professor. Jason Arde, we wonder now if he was one through erroneous means. But, but the point is your Charlie Downs individuals are able to build followings your Rupert Lowe's because he's a millionaire and he's friends with Elon Musk. Musk. They can grow on these platforms outside conventional media simply because they are eloquent and that's dangerous.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I wouldn't say that Reaper Lowe is particularly eloquent.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, quite eloquent actually. And he's belligerent. Very. Isn't he? He was absolutely not standing for it on the Today program this morning.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I, I've been trying to. I've actually been in touch with Charlie Dance to try and get Rupert Low to do a phone in with me, but to no avail so far.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Far?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I mean two dinosaurs locking horns, who knows where it might take us.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Not even going to. What's the point?

[Ian Dale]

Well, I read Madeline, we've had quite a lot of questions on climate. This was one supporting news. I'm just going to read it out. While I read it out.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I thought we were going to talk about crew con man in this.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, you're quite right, yes, cut that bit, Corey. Yes, we're going to do questions.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Let's do climate change in another bit. Anyway, the crew con man, I can't even remember what the guy's name is but I have interviewed. He's the one that does these AI videos which many of them are absolutely brilliant and quite funny. And then there are others that you look at them, you think what was the point of that? And that you just can't sort of work out what the what he's trying to do with them. So he's a very clever guy. Now, as I understand it, he was convicted when he was 21 of being a neo Nazi, effectively sort of anti Semitic stuff, really vile anti Semitic stuff. And he's now, what, in his 40s, and he's basically renounced all of his previous views and wanted to stand as a Tory council candidate in Somerset.

[Ian Dale]

His name is Joshua Bonehill Payne and he came out of prison in 2018 and he had his sort of epiphany around the death.

[Medical Disclaimer Speaker]

Death.

[Ian Dale]

The murder in 2016 of Joe Cox. Cox, yeah,

[Tessa Dunlop]

I've interviewed him once. He came. I think he came into the studio, actually, and he was again, he was. Use that word again, very articulate and. And I thought, well, good on you, mate. And I didn't know his background then at all. I. I did. I do remember that someone said to me on Twitter, you should look into him. And I didn't really take much notice of it. So I was quite shocked that he was actually imprisoned and had. Had got this Neo Nazi passed. So the question is a little bit like Jason Arday in the sense that, I mean, in 10 years time, if Jason Arday takes responsibility for everything that he's done that was wrong, should he then be redeemed in. In some way? Now we do have the rehabilitation of offenders and I wonder what. I'm interested in your view as to whether you think that. I mean, he issued a long statement yesterday, which I sent you to look at, and it's very, very plausible. And at the end of it, I thought, well, good on you. And I have got an equivalent on the left here, which in 2010, 2011, one of the first books I published at Biteback was by a guy called Matthew Collins, who also had been a neo Nazi Nazi. And he then renounced all of his racist views and then went to work for Hope for Hate. Hope not Hate. And he wrote a book about his neo Nazi background, which I published. Now, if we can effectively forgive him for what he did, why couldn't we forgive this guy?

[Ian Dale]

Well, what's interesting is he served his time. I found the timing of this story, which has blown up this week, is kind of the big one of the kind of cultural or moral questions of our time. And it's playing for airtime alongside the Jason Arday black academic story. It was very interesting to me. At the same time as we're hearing all about this former neo Nazi who Kemi Badenoch not only forgives but embraces and was welcoming back into the Conservative fold in a public office. Now, that's not going to happen to happen, because this chap Joshua's decided to step down, but she's still going to include him in some commission to look into how people become radicalized. So he's very much still part of

[Tessa Dunlop]

the sort of movie, effectively, she's doing. She's doing what Hope Not Hate did and yet she's being absolutely traduced for it.

[Ian Dale]

I think one of the problems was, and where it felt a bit like the party machine, the Tory party and Kemi were talking out of two sides of their mouth, was this was in the same week when all these prisoners were being released early because of the pressure in our prison system, currently 97% full. And she was coming down very hard on the victims Minister and on Andy Burnham, who commissioned an inquiry in the wake of Keir Starmer's decision to release prisoners early as to why this was the case, particularly with a view to PC Andrew Harper's killers. These were men who drove the policeman to his death, dragging him behind the vehicle. And in the wake of this inquiry, two of the individuals who were convicted of manslaughter, they weren't the driver of the car, are being released early. And Kemi came down on that heavily. And so it felt like. Hang on a minute. The Conservative Party can't see fit to forgive when it doesn't suit them?

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, no, no, no.

[Ian Dale]

Or to at least acknowledge that even

[Tessa Dunlop]

you can see that that is a total trust travesty of an argument, because these people hadn't haven't served their sentence. So they, they haven't been redeemed in the same way that the crew cone man got. I mean, he served his sentence, he was released. These people, as I understand it, haven't even served half their sentence.

[Ian Dale]

No. Now, horrific. You can't read that story without, like feeling sick, let alone being part of, of the policeman's family and friend group and also his colleagues, police, understandably feeling like they're up against it and not being sufficiently seen or heard when it comes to them as victims of crime. But that said, it is not the perpetrators of that crime's fault that they, because of pressure on the system, are up for early release. That is the system failing.

[Tessa Dunlop]

That may be the case. That may be the case case, but they haven't actually been released yet. So to, to say that we should be treating them in the same way as the crew can guy, I, I think is facile.

[Ian Dale]

I, I didn't, I didn't say That I just said it was.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well why did you raise it then?

[Ian Dale]

Because it was all bundled into the same news news program. And so it felt like if you listen to the whole news program, on the one hand we were saying, you know, that there can't be any room for kind of rehabilitation outside of prison. So forgiveness was the wrong word. I'll open in that. But a kind of a rehabilitation space that takes place outside prison walls, that, that isn't possible. At the same time as Kemi goes to these extraordinary lengths to rehabilitate, include and employ an individual for whom Jewish societies who are really the people, the victims in this case don't feel able

[Tessa Dunlop]

to forgive, they refuse to meet him, which I think is really wrong of them. I think they, he's offered to meet them, them so they can sort of hear from him personally exactly where he's standing. I, I think that's, that's just wrong headed off them frankly.

[Ian Dale]

But why should they be forced? But, but why? Because we should we ever have to put pressure on victims to meet the perpetrators of crimes against them, their ethnicity.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Why if you don't talk to people, you can't understand them, can you?

[Ian Dale]

But why would you want to understand someone who's been harassing you and so hateful that they've been impressed, imprisoned for it?

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, well fine, I understand that you might not want to meet them at that point, but sort of eight years later after they've come out of prison where they've completely renounced their views, I think I would want to test if I really believe that he'd renounced his views. I mean the media treated Matthew Collins almost like a demigod for his conversion to normality. So why should he be treated just because he's gone to an organization called Hope Not Hate, which is a ultra, a left wing organization. Why should he be treated with utter respect? And Kruko man isn't just because he happens to be a conservative.

[Ian Dale]

There is of course a political line to this, as there was with the case of short term prisoners being released, people on, on short term sentences being released because the woman, one of the women, the Jewish woman who he was harassing, Luciana Berger, I think she's a baroness in the high school.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Yeah, a friend of mine.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah, she's a labourer, labor payer. And of course he is working for the right of the political spectrum under Kemi Badenoc or looking to. So it's very hard to unpick redemption and mercy, which I'm a real believer in incidentally, whether it you're doing a

[Tessa Dunlop]

very good job of hiding it.

[Ian Dale]

No, I. I would hope that I would. I'm just playing devil's advocate here because. Because again, it. It doesn't quite stack up and I. I've got to say this. I think it's perhaps predictable and you knew it. But I wonder if we'd be having this conversation if we. The hate he'd meted out was against Muslim people. It just.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I think we would actually. Yeah.

[Ian Dale]

You think we would.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Absolutely.

[Ian Dale]

You think Kemi would be equally keen to embrace.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Absolutely.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Right.

[Ian Dale]

Okay. But. But there are interesting questions there and I think the idea of mercy, which often I don't believe the right embrace enough.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I have the opportunity to quiz Kemi on this on the 22nd of August in. In Edinburgh.

[Ian Dale]

Well, I hope you will pick up.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I know might be a non story by then, but I'm going to try. I honestly am going to try. Try. Because when I first read her reaction to this, I did think. Not wholly sure you've got this one right because I. I mean I got introduced the other day because on a podcast with Ollie Dougmore for the New Statesman, I said that I didn't think she'd put a foot wrong over the last nine months and I genuinely can't think of any major thing that she has got wrong. But I did, when I read this, first of all, I did think. Not sure you've called this one right, but reading more about it it and then reading his statement, I can see why she has done what she's done and she's done it knowing that it's going to cause her political difficulties.

[Ian Dale]

Yeah. And it made me impressed that she took a stand. I just felt that around all the other discussions about rehabilitation, probation and prisoners, it was uncomfortable. By the way, I'm someone who doesn't. I believes we lock up people far too readily. We are always talking about punishment and not rehabilitation. And I do. Query one high. We, I think lock up 83 people in a. In 100,000 and on the continent it's a hundred every 139th person. So we have a far higher incarceration rate and I don't believe we're morally worse people.

[Tessa Dunlop]

I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you on that. And what I don't understand in this early release scheme is, I mean there are plenty of people in prison or you could release virtually the entire female population prison population and not cause public alarm because about. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's a very, very High percentage of women prisoners are there for things other than violent conduct. So fine, keep the violent ones in, keep them off the streets. But do we really need to imprison people who've been convicted of what most people would regard as fairly minor offenses? So why are they releasing people who are in for manslaughter? Why aren't they releasing people who are in for non violent offenses? I don't understand it by the way.

[Ian Dale]

P.S. everybody, you've just ripped that you may not even be aware you've ripped that. One of a reform possible policy heavily promoted by its spokesperson was actually let's waive female prisoners. Let's give them a buy or many of them. The problem is they make up such a tiny percentage.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Oh no, there's 5,000 out of 89,000. So. But I mean it's a. Well, I expect that's a policy you would agree with though, isn't it? I mean I, I know entirely not, I never used to agree with that. But there is no. In 1993 when Michael Howard became Home Secretary, remember the famous Home Secretary said prison works, the prison population was 44 000. Now even if you take into account the rise in population since then, I mean you could say maybe add 10,000 onto that. But we're now at 88000 something like that now we haven't become a what, 60 more violent or law breaking country in the intervening years. We just haven't. So the easy way to get rid of it's to open up prison places is not just to build more prisons but to take people out of the prison system completely.

[Ian Dale]

But the. But if you're also going to honor the feelings of victims limbs and front and center them, yes, they are never going to want to see crimes against them released.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Of course most crimes have a victim. I mean even so white collar crimes will have victims but there is a degree of victimhood, isn't there? If, if you've been, if you've been sort of beaten up or burgled, that is something very different from a sort of shoplifting offense. Now obviously so single offense shoplifters aren't in prison but multiple shoplifted offences are so that there is huge scope to reduce the prison population. If we really wanted to do it.

[Ian Dale]

I agree because we're doing a questions podcast in this same record. I'm wondering whether thinking of Corey's editing ability in time we should wrap this one. I think we should but I want to end, end on a class note, not a feminist note. And that is if you exonerate all those who are engaged in white collar crime or fraud.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting they should be exonerated at all. But there are different ways of punishing people other than putting them in prison.

[Ian Dale]

Because to come full circle, it's a bit like recorded. It's a bit like applauding the loquacious, well educated individual who's able to dupe through a silver tongue like. Likewise, if I'm educated, the ability to defraud people in a white collar criminal capacity without ever having to soil my hands with swinging a punch or climbing in through a window and being burglar bill immediately means that those people who are middle class criminals are able to get away with their crimes and not pay such big time. And they already don't pay as much time.

[Tessa Dunlop]

And I am, I am not suggesting that people should get away with their crime, don't get me wrong. But that if, I mean, let's, let's. I mean for example, and I always quote this one back, Jeffrey Archer, who was convicted of perjury and sent to prison for three years basically to deter others and set an example which I, I'm always slightly uncomfortable about because I think people should be equal under the law. What good did it do society to put him in prison for three years? Wouldn't it have been better if we'd been able to fine him £10 million? I don't know how much Jeffrey Archer's worth, but I mean, let's say he's worth 50 million pounds. Fine him 10, 20, 30 million pounds. That would have been a far more painful punishment for him than spending a couple of years in prison, don't you think?

[Ian Dale]

The most annoying thing, it was an open category prison. I bet it was the one in which.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No slavery. No, no, not initially. He, he was in. I can't remember which prison it was, but I've read his prison diaries, which I can highly recommend. I learned more, more about the prison system from reading his diaries than any other thing I've ever read. But he was in different classes of prison. You're right, he ended up. Was it Wayland in Norfolk, a category D, but initially absolutely not.

[Ian Dale]

And guess what? He got another book out of it. Now listen, we're wrapping it up here.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Three books actually.

[Ian Dale]

Oh, Jesus. Do not buy any of them, I forbid you.

[Tessa Dunlop]

No, no, no, no. I think he donated the royalties to rehabilitation charities. But seriously, big of him. Well, can't win with you, can you?

[Ian Dale]

Goodbye.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Goodbye. Well, no, let, let me just finish by saying, I hope to see many of our listeners in Edinburgh. I'm. I'm honestly, you know, tomorrow. I'm currently in Cork and tomorrow we're going over to West Cork to the West Cork History Festival, where I'm chairing a session on the T shirt book. And that starts at three, should finish at half four. I've got to get a flight from Cork Airport at 20 past 8 to get to Edinburgh and I'm just paranoid that Ryanair are going to cancel the flight, in which case Nicola Sturgeon will be interviewing herself.

[Ian Dale]

Okay, that sounds quite intense and a little bit worrisome. Good luck with that. But I'm sure Nicola Sturgeon could talk to a room for an hour.

[Tessa Dunlop]

Well, I've just read the new Ford paperback edition of her book, so that's given me quite a few things to ask her about. She's writing a novel, don't you know.

[Ian Dale]

Well, isn't. Isn't that what they all do all

[Tessa Dunlop]

about a female First Minister who has dark past.

[Ian Dale]

In other words, it's a. It's an autobiography. As to how she would have liked her life to have worked out, she.

[Tessa Dunlop]

She says it says it isn't, but I shall investigate that. Right, we will see you again on Tuesday. Hope you have a lovely weekend and goodbye. This has been a global production.

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