Loading summary
Transcript276 lines
- [00:01]
Grainger Advertiser
Grainger knows. When you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners, lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-Grainger click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:33]
Ian Dale
This is a global production. I would not allow anybody to release be released from prison unless they can read, write and count.
- [00:41]
Tessa Dunlop
Where do these men predominantly have their lessons? How do you allow access? How do you increase even just the prison staffing population so that they can take people to their lessons to read and write the whole thing. The problem is, when you've got individuals incarcerated, the human power required to move them for A, to B, to free them up, to give them access to learning, etc. All of it requires extraordinary infrastructure and scrutiny and it's not available.
- [01:06]
Ian Dale
But just saying it's not available doesn't mean to say that it can't be available. I mean, that's just giving up in the future.
- [01:12]
Tessa Dunlop
But right now there's a crisis, so people have to be released.
- [01:14]
Ian Dale
But you're not listening. Why are they releasing the dangerous people when they could be releasing the not dangerous people?
- [01:24]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, Ian has got his belly hanging out in a dodgy.
- [01:29]
Ian Dale
Beg your pardon? I don't. Well, actually, I do have a bit of a belly, but it's for my age. It's not too big.
- [01:38]
Tessa Dunlop
We've got a lot to get through. Bundles of questions from the Bayo tapestry, slash Elgin Marbles to the history of the fine city in which you're currently presiding. Perfuming it with your wonderful political friends. And I also, of course, need to touch on headline news this morning. England's ever expanding drought. But we'll save that for the more niche interest listeners in inverted commas. But first to Lord Ian as he wields it over the mighty Scots. How's it going down? Who have you been hanging out with?
- [02:09]
Ian Dale
Well, in terms of the shows, you mean, or just generally, doesn't it intersect? Well, not really. Well, I've been hanging out with Jackie a bit because she. When did she come? She came up on before I did, actually. Last night we went to see a riotous show called Margaret Thatcher, Queen of Hollywood, and it was reimagining Margaret Thatcher as a Hollywood film star. It was with Matt Tedford, who I've seen before, used to do Margaret Thatcher, Queen of Soho, and I wondered whether Jackie would quite get it, but she was. She was laughing more than I did, actually. It was absolutely brilliant. And if anybody's going to Edinburgh, do go and see that. You'll have a great time. It's on at the Piccolo Tent. George's Square Gardens. No, George Square Gardens, but that's the only sort of social thing. The trouble is, and I hadn't really counted on this, three shows a day leaves you just washed out and so
- [03:05]
Tessa Dunlop
you sound a bit coldy, actually. Or is that hay fever?
- [03:07]
Ian Dale
No, I've literally just got out of bed.
- [03:10]
Tessa Dunlop
God, you're like a Lena roll out of bed. Demand breakfast. Neither of them are dressed.
- [03:15]
Ian Dale
I haven't had any breakfast. I have had a shower, though, so I. I feel cleansed because the first year I was here, we used to. We were in the Gilded Balloon Building in. I can't remember where it is, but anyway, we were in this room that took 150 people and I thought that would be perfectly big enough. I mean, we're not going to get more than 150 people at most shows. And then within tickets. Within two hours of tickets going on sale, Nicholas Sturgeon had sold out. So we decided then we'd need bigger venues in the future. But it was like a sauna, like every single guest would emerge after the hour, just dripping wet. And it was. It was quite atmospheric. Shall I say, in other words, stinky? But no, we've had. The first day was Create News Day. We had Nicola Sturgeon, who basically committed a lot of news. She's very sweary. She admitted she was hung over.
- [04:07]
Tessa Dunlop
So why did she create News? What were the top lines from your interview with Sturgeon?
- [04:12]
Ian Dale
The top line was when I asked her, will have you visited your husband in prison? And she said, no. And I said, will you visit him in prison? And she said no, and then launched into a bit of a rant about him and how he'd let her down and she couldn't believe that the man that she married was not the man that was the real man, et cetera, et cetera. And it all got a bit emotional at 1. And I left this right to the end of the hour and I think a lot of the audience were probably thinking, is he going to go there? But I thought, there's no point in starting off with that. So we did that towards the end. So that created quite a few headlines. Then I asked her if she can
- [04:49]
Tessa Dunlop
we Just stop there and unpack that a tiny bit. Did it surprise you that she hadn't visited him?
- [04:55]
Ian Dale
No, no, not at all.
- [04:57]
Tessa Dunlop
It doesn't surprise me at all either. I would just say this in the backdrop of the sort of the whole Andrew Ferrari and this idea of you're either bad or you're good, you're black or you're white, you're morally wrong, you're morally right. And I actually think we've now got a cultural landscape. This is absolutely no way is it Nicola Sturgeon's fault, which doesn't allow for the exhibition of mercy. It doesn't allow us to redeem or forgive.
- [05:24]
Ian Dale
Yeah, well, we talked about that in the last episode, didn't we? Yeah, and it was interesting. Matt Ford was with me yesterday on a comedy panel with Susie McCabe and Rosie Holt, and he was really having a go at Kemi Badenok. He said, this week is. Or last week was the week that the wheels came off for Kemi Badenok over her reaction to the Crew Co and Gazette guy. And I didn't challenge him on it because I just thought that this could just develop into a long argument, what's the point? But I did think it was interesting. A lot on the left think that she really is taking the wrong decision on that. Well, I'm not sure that will have any impact on public opinion, but you never know. But the thing with Nicola Sturgeon, I mean, she was very sweary throughout the interview and I've. I've never heard her swear before, but she. She described Joanna Cherry's book as. Despite not having read it, she said, jk. I asked her if she wanted to have a truce with J.K. rowling, and she said, the woman's obsessed with. And then went on a bit of a rant that's made a lot of headlines. And then, to be fair, I think
- [06:29]
Tessa Dunlop
J.K. rowling has her obsessions kind of morph, because I noticed she was having a go at a Conservative M. No, It's a Labor MP. You'll know exactly who she is. Northamptonshire MP, about 45 years old, blonde, can't goddamn well remember her name. Who was decrying this biological status for two genders, two sexes, Etc. And J.K. rowling, absolutely weaponizing on her social media, having a real go at her.
- [07:00]
Ian Dale
Well, everyone's entitled to their point of view, aren't they? I mean, I. I don't. I. I think it's sad that people fall out because I think they used to be quite good friends. I think it's sad when people fall out personally over the, the whole transition or indeed any issue, I don't see why you can't still have good relations with people. But there is a school of thought and someone, somebody was telling last night that Peter Morrow actually by, by pleading guilty, saved Nicholas Sturgeon a lot of hassle because the, the thought goes, and I don't know how true this is, and had, had I known this beforehand, I might have put it to her. But the, the idea is that he did a sort of plea bargain. Well, if he pled guilty, they wouldn't reveal some of the stuff that Nicola Sturgeon. Now, she's always maintained that she knew nothing about any of it, but that's not the consensus up here. It has to be said. I don't, I don't know the truth of that. And that there was also something else that I learned before the show and I really had to wrestle with my conscience about whether to ask her about it. I can't say what it is on. I'll tell you afterwards, but I can't say what it is on here because it would then become a story. But it involved somebody who, if I asked her, the question would then have inevitably become front page news in the Scottish newspapers. And in the end I wimped out. I just decided it was unfair on this person to go there because it would have put them at the center of the story. And this person is not a public figure, so why should they have their lives traduced just because I wanted to ask her a question.
- [08:47]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, I do.
- [08:48]
Ian Dale
I do have some ethics.
- [08:49]
Tessa Dunlop
You do. Your ethics are beyond doubt, Ian. But I, I wonder. You've always, I think, been forgiving, some would say. Some people would say too.
- [09:00]
Ian Dale
Forgiving, absolutely.
- [09:02]
Tessa Dunlop
And I think felt warm to the point of almost a potential friendship developing there. I, I wonder if that's changed at all.
- [09:08]
Ian Dale
That. That is not the case. I mean, you can't be friends with somebody if you've never engaged with them on a social basis. And I never have with Nicola Sturgeon. I mean, I did say to her at the end when I was saying goodbye, I said, because she's now spending quite a lot of time in London, which has gone down like a cup of cold sick up here. So the woman who lord Scotland has now sort of departed Scotland. I mean, she says she doesn't spend all her time in London, but she clearly spends quite a lot of time in London.
- [09:36]
Tessa Dunlop
Perhaps she could bring some water with her, which will soon become Scotland.
- [09:39]
Ian Dale
And I, I just said to her, fancy Lunch or dinner, anytime, let me know. Now, I'm pretty sure that that won't
- [09:47]
Tessa Dunlop
happen unless you instigated it. And then I think perhaps it would, but I don't think.
- [09:51]
Ian Dale
I don't know. But I mean, this is where, I mean, I've had quite a lot of, should we say, adverse comment from people who weren't at the interview. And I. Look, I think that I said at the beginning of the Zach Polanski interview on Sunday afternoon, because it was a real culty audience. It was the same audience, effectively that I had when Jeremy Corbyn came up here. I mean, when he walked on the stage, the whooping had to be heard and I mean, all he had to mention was wealth tax or rent controls and off they'd go again. And I did say at the beginning, I said, I'm not here to give him a hard time or a forensic interview. I can do that on the radio. What I'm here to do is to allow you to get to know him as a person a bit better and what his motivations are.
- [10:35]
Tessa Dunlop
Zach Polensky. Why he's only only just woken up to the green credentials of his Green Party.
- [10:40]
Ian Dale
No, because I've done that on the radio. I mean, he did.
- [10:43]
Tessa Dunlop
What did you chat about?
- [10:43]
Ian Dale
He actually. Oh, God. You see, this is why I can never remember exactly all the things we talked about.
- [10:48]
Tessa Dunlop
I was interested by one of the headlines on your Twitter account, which obviously I follow avidly and as do 200,000 people that you.
- [10:55]
Ian Dale
Sorry, 265,000.
- [10:57]
Tessa Dunlop
Of course. Gosh, where did I, did I lose that 65,000? A slight amnesia setting the same number, coincidentally, that has joined your LBC listenership. Extraordinary.
- [11:08]
Ian Dale
No, no, that was, that was only 65,000.
- [11:11]
Tessa Dunlop
No.
- [11:11]
Ian Dale
Or is it 70? I can't remember.
- [11:13]
Tessa Dunlop
Now we're splitting hairs. Anyway, I notice you, you had interviewed in one day. Was it always 24 hours? Three gay politicians. Nicola Sturgeon.
- [11:22]
Ian Dale
Hang on a minute.
- [11:23]
Tessa Dunlop
Yes, this was on your Twitter account. She's not gay, Nicholas. Oh, no, she's not, is she?
- [11:29]
Ian Dale
No, she's not. She said that she wouldn't class herself as non binary. That's not the same as being gay. Get your terms right.
- [11:37]
Tessa Dunlop
Do we need to cut that bit, Corey?
- [11:38]
Ian Dale
No, we don't. We don't.
- [11:39]
Tessa Dunlop
Is it the heat? Okay, just two. Oh, are you counting yourself as the third gay person?
- [11:44]
Ian Dale
No, no, I'm not. Well, I am, obviously, but.
- [11:48]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, I clearly got in a model.
- [11:49]
Ian Dale
But that was the, that was the main headline from the worst treating interview where he said that since he's been Defense Secretary, which is like three weeks, he's had more homophobic abuse online than any other time in his life. And I was quite shocked by that, to be honest. And, and it meant, and this will impress you, Tessa, it meant that the Nicola Sturgeon interview and the West Streeting interview were the lead items on the Radio four eight o' clock news.
- [12:14]
Tessa Dunlop
I am impressed because you know, I'm an avid Radio 4 listener. We'll come to this morning's top headline on Radio 4 after the break. But just quickly, having written extensively about the army and hung out with way too many top brass of the military, it doesn't surprise me at all.
- [12:32]
Ian Dale
Well, he said to be fair to the military, all he's had is, is positive things. He said he's been some of visits, he's been on to army camps. He's had young soldiers come up to him and say how proud they are that they have, they have a gay defense secretary 100%.
- [12:49]
Tessa Dunlop
But the mood music. But they will. The mood music around an organization which has for centuries been the personification of macro heterosexual is incredibly hard to say.
- [13:02]
Ian Dale
Did you say Matron Macho?
- [13:05]
Tessa Dunlop
I wanted to say macho, not, not mattress. But it's the same reason that women and the efforts to integrate women their target of 15 women they fail to meet. In fact, I think they've now dropped the target because it's become so embarrassing. Like how could it be that difficult? How many years after World War II when there was this great example of integrated service how difficult it going to be? But it's proved incredibly difficult because of the, the definition of the military that and its inception. And we can, we could spend hours talking about that.
- [13:35]
Ian Dale
I mean yesterday just to finish off on this because we'll move on, we did Nazanine Zagari Ratcliffe and her husband Richard. At the beginning I was quite nervous about that one because I, I'd interviewed Richard but I don't know him know him and obviously I'd never met Nazanin and we did a zoom call last week just so she could sort of see what I was like. And Gabriella, their daughter was in the audience and she was typical 12 year old, sort of didn't want any attention and sort of afterwards they said, oh, what did you think of? She says, well, it's a bit boring. It, but it, it wasn't, it was what. You know, it's one of those hours where you could hear a pin drop. Everybody was so captivated. And Nazanin, I mean she's quite a robust woman and was not afraid to speak her mind at all on anything. And I, I didn't want to concentrate on what's going on in Iran at the moment because obviously her parents are still there and any excuse the regime have. So I, I nightmare. She did talk about it a bit towards the end, but I, I was, that's the only thing where thought, no, be a little bit careful with this.
- [14:40]
Tessa Dunlop
I always felt those shits keeping a captive for that long. You only a woman who's experienced secondary fertility. But there was something Nazanin said in one interview when she came out of prison that they basically took away that opportunity for her to give her daughter a sibling. Not that everyone wants that, but that's so painful. How many years was she in prison?
- [14:59]
Ian Dale
Six.
- [15:00]
Tessa Dunlop
And from what age? 38. Was she when they imprisoned her?
- [15:04]
Ian Dale
37, I think. Yeah, that's, that's your last fertile window, Gabriella. Her daughter was 2 at the time, so she missed out, she missed out on what you've had with that Elena over the last five years.
- [15:15]
Tessa Dunlop
Wicked.
- [15:16]
Ian Dale
It absolutely is.
- [15:17]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah.
- [15:19]
Ian Dale
So that, that I said to somebody, I thought it for the whole of the six year run that I've been doing these fringes, I thought that was actually the best one. It won't. Yeah, it won't get headlines but I'm, I'm going to put that out on the podcast at the beginning of September. September. Not this podcast, the all podcast. And I think people are going to be blown away by that.
- [15:39]
Tessa Dunlop
Brilliant. Well done you. Ian, Will we have a little break? A snozzle? I think we should put your pants on.
- [15:45]
Ian Dale
Yeah, they are on. Wouldn't subject you to that. I can assure you
- [15:54]
Grainger Advertiser
when you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no, no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [16:25]
Ian Dale
Just before we move on, let's have a little word, if we may, about the West Cork History Festival, which I was at on Friday. What an amazing event. It's in a. On an estate called Innisbeg and it's a two hour drive west of Cork and it was the most marvelous setting on the edge of a lake. There's A boathouse. They create a sort of marquee, but it, well, maybe is a marquee. And so I was there to chair a panel on my T shirt book. And There are about 150 people in the audience, a lot of them staying there, because it's a very remote location and it's a sort of three day week weekend, not conference, but a gathering. And we were the first on and they did say to me, now, sometime during this session the Taoiseach will appear. I was thinking, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to invite him onto the stage or what did you. Well, I will come to that in a second. So we were all chatting away and in he walks and he just comes and plonks himself in the front row as almost. Almost like a member of the public turning up late. No sort of song and dance about it at all. And so we get to the Q A bit and somebody, Damien Collins was there, the former Conservative MP because he runs the Fleet Street Festival of Words in London. And he asked a question, I can't remember what it was now. And he was directed at me more than the three panelists. I said, oh, shoot. And I said. And I thought, I just need a moment to think of the answer to that one. So I went to the other three first and I came back to me and I started talking about Sean Lamass, who was T shirt between, I think 59 and 66 and I think one of the most impressive ones that they've had. And whatever I said the T shirt then piped up and sort of slightly heckled, he said, no, no, no, you. You've got that wrong. Why did I do a Scottish accent there?
- [18:21]
Tessa Dunlop
I don't know. Is he. Who's the T shirts? Michael Martin.
- [18:23]
Ian Dale
Mihal Martin, yeah, Miho.
- [18:25]
Tessa Dunlop
Miho.
- [18:26]
Ian Dale
And it was all very good natured. Good. And then when we finished, because I had to leave, well, at the on the dot of half past four because my plane to Edinburgh was leaving Cork airport at twenty past eight. Anyway, of course people were coming up, wanted to talk to me and sort of sign books and all the rest of it, but he was the first one. He made a beeline for me at the end of it and we had a love. Honestly, we had such a nice chat for probably seven or eight minutes.
- [18:52]
Tessa Dunlop
Did you invite him to Edinburgh next year, Ian?
- [18:55]
Ian Dale
I didn't, but I think I've gotten in now that I probably could. And he was just such a nice man. And it's a bit like John Major. He can't. He can't sort of get it over in front of a microphone.
- [19:08]
Tessa Dunlop
And a bit, I would say a bit like Keir Starmer perhaps as well, Possibly a little.
- [19:11]
Ian Dale
And I said to him, so has Andy Burnham been on? He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I've had. I've had a phone call. I said, did you know him before? And he said, yeah, he came over when he was mayor of Manchester and he said. He said, and of course we talked about football because I'm a Manchester United fan. I said, of course you are, because most people in the Republic of Ireland seem to be. And he said, yeah, he's invited me to see Everton play Manchester United. I'm thinking, is that. Is that Andy Burns, where foreign policy now invite foreign leaders to go to football matches with him?
- [19:43]
Tessa Dunlop
It's so interesting. The. Can we deviate slightly onto Andy Barnum, who's still on holiday? I think.
- [19:48]
Ian Dale
No, I think he's back today.
- [19:49]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh, is he back? I sent you his TikTok account because my teenager group, you know, my connection with the teenage world, the underworld, they're like, remember, it's exclusively female, almost exclusively female. Any contact I have with the teenage world, also London based, they're like, God, Andy Burnham's such a geezer. He's like such a gee. It's so annoying. It's so misogynist.
- [20:10]
Grainger Advertiser
I love it.
- [20:10]
Tessa Dunlop
But they also said in the same breath, he is worryingly good at social media. Like, oh my God, he's got really good advice on TikTok. Like his TikTok is flying like this and his TikTok is good. But it's interesting, that whole football lingo, that that is the kind of patois of the working man, but very much the. I know women like football and we love the lionesses, but it's still pretty much the working man's club lingo, isn't it, to invite the Taoiseach to a football match. I just don't see a Labor female labor leader doing that. I mean, they could, but I think it's less likely, isn't it, that they will have been a lifelong Everton fan with the old, you know, the. All the old kit and the credibility. And I do think that's in some ways a barrier to. To women in the Labour Party.
- [20:54]
Ian Dale
I think it's interesting that that generation, if I mean what you say is representative, are quite impressed by Andy Burnham's social media. I am to a degree, but I think he's overdoing it. I think there's too much of it and it's too Frivolous now, okay, on Tick Tock. You can't just be serious all the time. I completely get that, but I, I think he's got to be a little bit careful to get the balance right.
- [21:19]
Tessa Dunlop
Now, I know that you think I'm obsessed, but this morning the lead item on the Today programme was the drought which has extended across most of England now and is of course Wales. And the food shortages because this is a different drought from normal droughts because it includes the whole of Europe. So where do we import food from when there's food shortages? The head of the National Farmers Union was on along with the environmental committee and the need rapidly for all the recommendations to be taken up. But having scoured Andy Burnham's TikTok. No mention. Absolutely no. It's really interesting to me that we are now kind of crisis levels in terms of food supplies coming down the track. Ian. No, no, no. Tick tock on that from our Andy. And there's a lot. I mean, I know it's my algorithms feeding it, but there's a huge amount of people now saying, why is Andy not addressed this? Why has he not talked about it once that he has come out? This most recent pronouncement has been on get consumers being able to wriggle out of conscriptions to reduce the cost of living. But none of this is going to mean anything if food prices Wriggle out of what? You know, when you get trapped into subscriptions or contracts with your. I think it's with, for example, your mobile phone providers to be able to get out of consumers to have more rights so that we can, you know, get out of subscription services, etc. I think that's the latest pronouncement from the Burnham camp. But these things are going to be tinkering while Rome burns unless we address our food supplies. Etc. Sorry to be boring.
- [22:41]
Ian Dale
Well, don't apologize. Let's just move on.
- [22:43]
Tessa Dunlop
See, because he's in Scotland and it's cooler there. You're like my mother. Mum goes, darling, because she wants me to come to Edinburgh. I said, I can't come to Edinburgh, Mum, because Ian didn't invite me.
- [22:51]
Ian Dale
Oh, here we go.
- [22:52]
Tessa Dunlop
I'm going to Edinburgh in September. No, no, Notice she's angry that I'm not. I'm not in Edinburgh. I was visiting her, basically.
- [22:58]
Ian Dale
Notice that I didn't tell you about the Jackie Smith one yesterday.
- [23:03]
Tessa Dunlop
I was going to ask you about it, but then I got distracted by my current obsession. It's 34 degrees outside and 9 in the morning.
- [23:09]
Ian Dale
It's actually quite bloody hot. It's quite warm here. But it is a lot cooler. You're absolutely, absolutely right.
- [23:14]
Tessa Dunlop
But mom says, oh, I don't know how you can cope in London. Those awful places. Full of climate change. The last time I checked is happening everywhere.
- [23:24]
Ian Dale
Full of climate change. Brilliant. Brilliant. Only a mother could say something like that.
- [23:29]
Tessa Dunlop
Of course. Dunbar. This microcosm climate has totally avoided climate change and the dial hasn't shifted for millennia. It's very funny. God bless her soul. So, questions, we've got lots of responses to our days.
- [23:47]
Ian Dale
I thought you were going to talk about the history of Edinburgh a bit before.
- [23:49]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, we had a question on that actually. Okay, yeah, we have had a question on that. I got on such a muddle with all my WhatsApp questions that I just noted the subjects. There was one on the bio tapestry as well.
- [24:01]
Ian Dale
You keep saying bayou. You said bayou tapestry to begin with. Words. I was. I would always say it was bayou tapestry but I wonder which one is actually right.
- [24:12]
Tessa Dunlop
I can't believe you're asking me that. But it's nice that you consulted the oracle of pronunciation. She's tried so hard over the last 18 months.
- [24:19]
Ian Dale
Self knowledge is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
- [24:22]
Tessa Dunlop
It is indeed. So is the echo chamber of pronunciation. Let's just repeat our mistakes at each other.
- [24:27]
Ian Dale
Your pronunciation you mean?
- [24:28]
Tessa Dunlop
Indeed that too. So are you currently in the neoclassical new town, the Georgian neoclassical new town of Edinburgh, or are you in the skanky old town full of clapped out houses and prostitutes? Boots?
- [24:41]
Ian Dale
I don't. I'm. I'm near Haymarket station. I don't know whether what that classifies us.
- [24:45]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, you're the other side of. You're the. You're the. You're not the Old Town side, you're the Newtown side, I think, but the
- [24:52]
Ian Dale
old town beyond the new town, the Old Town side. I mean you could imagine that you were in the Charles Dick in it. Dickens era, couldn't you? You walk around it and you. You can imagine it's 1785. There aren't many cities in Britain where you can think like that.
- [25:05]
Tessa Dunlop
That there is such a. I think the best way of coming to terms with the schizophrenic nature of Edinburgh. I'm sure I've mentioned this in the pod before. It was a really. We lived 80 miles away from Edinburgh. We live very remotely in Heinzer, Scotland. And when we drove over the fourth road bridge it felt like we were re entering or entering rather civilization. And you get to Edinburgh and it totally baffled Me, because my grandmother lived on Saxe Coburg Place in the new town of Edinburgh. And I could never get my tiny mind around the fact this looked, well, old and it was called the New Town. And what's really interesting is I think Edinburgh is a. Is the. Certainly that new bit of Edinburgh speaks to the story of a British Scotland where actually the thought and investment that went into building the new town, Ian, was a direct result of unification with England. And the powers that be in Edinburgh feeling really worried about a mass exodus of money, wealth, class, brain power heading south if they didn't ship up their city and make it look more presentable. There was actually a competition to, for the best architect to kind of build on to the old town, which was tiny, built on a slope and you just. No need to go up the Royal Mile. And it's wonderful, isn't it, that you couldn't invent the old town. It's just so impressive with its alleys and it's. I mean it's a slightly. You have to see beyond the tat now you need to avoid that plastic Highland cows and the Tamasheva Santas. But there is something of it, you're right, that's like time travel. But what they do at the end of the 1700s is they run a competition. It's won by a guy called James Craig in 1766. But Robert Adams is actually the main dude who plans out much of the Georgian sweep. You know, Charlotte Square is probably the finest example of that. And they drain, which was a sort of stinking marsh, a Donald Trump style swamp, it was called Lochnoor. And that's where Princess Street Gardens are. You know, that kind of lovely undulating green dip between the old town and Princess street that was deliberately drained. And then you get this building of the new town, which is a really. It's kind of like the Milton Keynes, dare I say it, of the early 1800s. How much better we did it then, Ian, than now.
- [27:20]
Ian Dale
Well, we did, we did so many things better. Because if you, if you look at, I think particularly 19th century architecture, I love Gothic architecture, you look at that and you compare it to the architecture of nowadays. And I mean, virtually every office block that goes up now almost looks the same. Yes, there are exceptions to that, but there doesn't seem to be the imagination in architecture that there used to be in those days.
- [27:44]
Tessa Dunlop
It's a huge amount of penny pinching as well, isn't it? My Italian neighbors are architects and they say, you know, you do it, you put in a really nice plan. For six flats. And the developer comes back and he says, make it 12. And then all the kind of cost cutting that's involved in turning six flats into 12 flats means that the aesthetic and actually the sort of standard of life that a building like that can afford is. Is compromised. But the other thing about kind of Scotland becoming part of this British whole was, of course, the arrival of the first monarch for 200 years, George IV. One of the best things he did was his jaunt, as it was known, up to Scotland in 1822. And it was all sort of, I suppose, organized, pioneered by the famous Scottish writer. So Walter Scott, Queen Victoria's favorite, the best monument on Princess Street. I actually don't like it, but if you like Gothic stuff, you probably love the Walter Scott monument.
- [28:35]
Ian Dale
Do you answer, I've noticed it.
- [28:38]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh, bloody Helene. You can't miss it. You come out of. You come out of Waverly and you look to your left and there's this great big kind of craggy thing that looks like a witch's wedding cake.
- [28:47]
Ian Dale
I flew here this time, so.
- [28:48]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh, Jesus.
- [28:49]
Ian Dale
Therefore creating climate change sometimes, as your mother would say.
- [28:53]
Tessa Dunlop
We know when I post, when I make a reel, when I homemade edit one of our reels, which I did recently, it did very well, actually. Of course, because it was on. Is either on climate or Jason, our day. Those two always go well because we have such polarized opinions and about half the camp are with you, and the other half of the camp go, I don't know how you talk to Ian, Tessa. I don't know how you cope with that man, that twat, whatever they call you.
- [29:12]
Ian Dale
Hang on. We agreed on Jason, Are they.
- [29:15]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, that. That. I think the bit I clipped, you know, just for traction, was when perhaps you were more triggering to a certain audience than I was. Ian, it's all about the edit.
- [29:25]
Ian Dale
So basically, you are giving me an undeserved reputation, that's what you're saying?
- [29:30]
Tessa Dunlop
No, I think I actually gave you the last word in that clip so that you could post it on your Twitt Twatter.
- [29:36]
Ian Dale
Had to happen one day.
- [29:37]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, it did happen. It was really difficult for me actually to hit the edit the clip go button anyway, so I do envy being Edinburgh. It's one of the finest cities in the world. But if people want to get a sense of it and what it inspired, the art it inspired, I recommend Jekyll and Hyde, Robert Louis Stevenson. It's set in London, but Robert Louis Stevenson is an Edinburgh man and the schizophrenic Descriptions not just of the individual that's the protagonist, but the city, the London he inhab, that's the schizophrenic Edinburgh, where Robert Louis Stevenson, to have got his end away or done any illicit dealings, would have had to have crossed back into the dark world that was the old town. And I think it's so brilliant. I wrote down a couple of quotes. He writes of, quote, a world of freshly painted shutters. This is the new town. Well, polished brasses and they're pitched against doors, quote, equipped with neither bell nor knocker, bearing the marks of prolonged and sordid negligence. I don't know why you're not staying in the old townian negligence.
- [30:39]
Ian Dale
Well, because a word for you because this is about a seven minute walk from the conference center where I'm doing the shows. So why would I stay like miles away? Edinburgh is not an easy place to get around, is it? I mean, either even walking you, because if you go by Google Maps and you walk around it, Edinburgh, it's very difficult because it's on different levels and that that isn't reflected on the maps. But even if you get a taxi for a relatively short ride, it can take quite a long time.
- [31:07]
Tessa Dunlop
It's great. I mean, you could probably give up Manjaro for a week if you walked everywhere.
- [31:11]
Ian Dale
I think I have lost weight.
- [31:12]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah. I think people really underestimate just how many more calories we burn and how much more effortful it is to go up rather than to go along. I always remember when my dad was dying of bone marrow cancer and I heard him go 11. He was bracing himself to get up the stairs and he went to himself, 11, 4, 11, 4. And I thought, God, he's gone mad when he's talking to himself. Oh, no, he's near death. And of course he was just psyching himself up. And it was so challenging for him to mount the stairs. He had long ago mastered that. There were 11 steps to the landing and four more to the bathroom. So you know when you're absolutely fucked, Ian, because you'll know how many stairs there are in your house.
- [31:48]
Ian Dale
I don't know that I have to say.
- [31:49]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, that's a good sign. That's a good sign.
- [31:51]
Ian Dale
Just before we carry on, Gina Davidson, our Scotland political editor, she's just said, can you ask Joanna Cherry about this? Because I'm interviewing her later, her and just Phillips. And you know, there's a trans Green msp, an Indian person called Q. Manivanon. She has said the demonization of sexual violence has Created an overly simplistic view of who commits offenses and that rape exists on a spectrum.
- [32:22]
Tessa Dunlop
Them.
- [32:22]
Ian Dale
Well, you can imagine how that's going down.
- [32:26]
Tessa Dunlop
Rape exists on a spectrum.
- [32:28]
Ian Dale
Yeah. She said. Hang on, let me just scroll down the article a minute. Yeah. Rape exists in a spectrum and is dependent on different contexts. Anyone can commit the offense, including women. Oh, now this is describing him as a he, whereas I said a she.
- [32:47]
Tessa Dunlop
Say they. Them.
- [32:48]
Ian Dale
I'm not quite sure which is right. Anyway, the comments have provoked a significant backlash from MPS and MSPs who describe the remarks as insensitive and appalling. I mean, what. How can you say that rape is on a spectrum? I mean, rape is. Rape is rape.
- [33:05]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah. I presume the illusion is. Is it? Is it? I don't know. I'm not going to go there, actually. Yeah, I think. I think the. It's unfortunate phraseology. Put it like that.
- [33:20]
Ian Dale
Yes. I think we can agree.
- [33:21]
Tessa Dunlop
It's the idea that if you're raped by someone, you know, it's less bad than rape from a stranger in a bush. Because that's not. That's actually. I think it's worse violation if you're raped by someone. You know, rape at knife point is. Is worse than rape when you're drunk and you're already having a fumble. Shades of gray. But it's not. Is it? Because it's all just black. It's pretty dark stuff.
- [33:39]
Ian Dale
Right. So let's continue on for some questions. Here's Barry in air. He says he's got a ps. Let's do that because it'll trigger you.
- [33:48]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh, no.
- [33:49]
Ian Dale
Tessa's brother Duncan is my regional msp and doing a very good job. Is he?
- [33:54]
Tessa Dunlop
But triggered me. Why has that triggered me? That's good.
- [33:56]
Ian Dale
Airs over the other side of the country.
- [33:59]
Tessa Dunlop
No, but Duncan. So Duncan is Dunbar. If it was a cons. If he was a constituency mp. Because that's where he lives. But he's the south of Scotland, you know, ticket. He. He got in on the ballot. You know, the. He didn't. As a constituent mp. He got in as. For the whole region of the south of Scotland. But.
- [34:20]
Ian Dale
But air is West Scotland.
- [34:22]
Tessa Dunlop
I know, but he's. He's. He covers the whole of the south of Scotland because he got in on the list. That's what it's called. Okay.
- [34:29]
Ian Dale
Okay. Anyway, the question. Well, I'm not sure it is a question really.
- [34:33]
Tessa Dunlop
Is the question going to trigger me?
- [34:34]
Ian Dale
No, that. I thought that might because you.
- [34:36]
Tessa Dunlop
No, I'm pleased with that.
- [34:37]
Ian Dale
Good. I just wanted to say how Much I've enjoyed Ian's book and the Edinburgh Fringe shows have been absolutely brilliant too. I've really enjoyed hearing the conversations with such a wide range of people and getting a different insight into their lived experiences. I was wonder, out of all the interviews Ian's done, which one did he feel personally he learned the most from and which interview did he find the most challenging? Well, I would say both of those would be the. The Nazanin, Zakari Radcliffe and Richard Radcliffe one, because I was quite nervous about it. I. You, you know me, I don't do an awful lot of preparation for these interviews because I want them to be conversations. But I did wonder how much I would remember of what Nazanin had been through and all. All the details. So I thought that had the potential to go wrong if I didn't get. Get it right. But I. I think I'd probably learn more from that than any of the others, to be honest.
- [35:28]
Tessa Dunlop
Also, I mean, not to suggest that politicians aren't real, real people, but that was a human story. That's lived experience. Whereas politicians, even if they're in the silly season on holiday that, you know, they're still burnishing the political image, aren't they? There's. There's lack of sincerity. I think even if they're deeply sincere, there's a sense that there's a second agenda there, as in Ratcliffe.
- [35:51]
Ian Dale
I don't agree with that. When politicians come to Edinburgh, they are kind of in holiday mode, so that there's. There's not so much attention to saying the wrong thing. And they, they do come across as more human. Why have I invited just Phillips every year so far, and this is the sixth time she would have appeared because she is human. She says outrageous things and she's an interesting person and she always gets a good audience, I think, worth treating. Although I did detect when we talking about defense, he was watching his words more carefully than he normally would.
- [36:25]
Tessa Dunlop
He's a government minister.
- [36:26]
Ian Dale
Yeah. And he has to. You have. People have to accept that if you're a government minister, you can't go off track or, or you can't go too much off track because you know what the consequences will be.
- [36:35]
Tessa Dunlop
I think what I'm saying is with a politician, there's always a bit of pick me, Ian. They have to because they're democratically elected, so they know that they rely on being popular with the public, whereas the Nazin Ratcliffe story, that they don't need to make themselves ingratiate themselves with the public. They're not Looking for a vote. By definition, they can afford to occupy a very different space from a politician on the stage, on holiday or not.
- [36:58]
Ian Dale
True. Right. Do you have one?
- [37:02]
Tessa Dunlop
Yes, I do. This is from Jenny. Wait a minute. 2. Sex. I have got tickets to go and see. I can't say it now because I've got a complex. The Bayou Tapestry, the British Museum. Well done, Jenny. Because when she sent me this question, I then thought, I want tickets. I got a real, real FOMO thing going on and there's none available now until January next year and they're going to be released in October. So they're staging the release of these tickets. This is the big borrow from France to Britain, she says. Is this exchange going to be a sign of things to come? Burnham has long promised the return of the Elgin Marble.
- [37:40]
Ian Dale
Oh, has he?
- [37:41]
Tessa Dunlop
Yes. Well, then I did a little bit of a looky look this morning and he actually quoted in 2023, he said that to promote Britain's soft power. And now I quote, send them back, no strings and let's use culture to change how Britain is seen around the world. So, Andy, where's the tick tock on that, my friend?
- [38:09]
Ian Dale
Well, that's going to be very interesting because, I mean, I've, I've come to the conclusion that should happen. I'm not sure about no strings, but, but I, I think it, it should happen. I didn't know that he had said that and that that will be an interesting test for him, won't it? If I was betting with you, I would bet that he won't do anything about it.
- [38:29]
Tessa Dunlop
He'll really hope that no one digs up that quote. But guess what? The Financial Times did. So it's up to us to amplify that messaging. Apparently George Osborne is some big wig trustee of the British Museum. His talks with, I believe, the Foreign Minister in Greece. Greece, Greece have stalled because of this act of Parliament. That means that the marbles belong to Britain and therefore the loan of any marbles would run counter to Greek sensibilities, understandably so, because they don't want to be lent what they believe belongs to them. It was kind of undercut. Do you see what I mean? But with the, with the act of Parliament, we can't do more than loan them. So the suggestion is George Osborne needs to broker a deal where we, we lend the marbles to Greece. And then there is, I don't know, a poll or, or, or an attempt to change the act or do something while they're on loan so that Greece
- [39:25]
Ian Dale
can keep them Well, I, I don't think this is a party political issue. I mean, you. Most conservatives would say keep them, but I suspect most labor mps would say no. So therefore they've got a majority of whatever it is, 170. So if they, if Andy Burnham wants to push it through Parliament, he can easily do so.
- [39:44]
Tessa Dunlop
It's about having the bandwidth, isn't it? It's about making space for something like that.
- [39:47]
Ian Dale
Yeah. Let's take a short break and we'll come back with more questions.
- [39:53]
Grainger Advertiser
When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-granger click ranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [40:25]
Ian Dale
So here's one from Liam in Jersey. You counting your money, Liam? Why is it we, we think everyone in Jersey must be filthy rich? That's. That's very far from the truth. But anyway, he says a close of mine lost both of her parents when a driver doing 87 miles an hour in a country lane lost control after hitting ice and killed them. He was sentenced to 16 years in November 2025, but under the Sentencing act will serve only half of that before automatic release. How can that be justified in cases of causing death by dangerous driving? How can labor truthfully say that they're taking crime seriously when these people are released purely to free up space for likely people serving less, less serious sentences? Well, let's remember this scheme started under the Conservatives, so in a sense this is not a party political thing. But I think this is where Andy Burnham has made his first mistake, because by putting the whole scheme on pause, I think it's one of his first pronouncements. He led us all to believe that effectively it would be stopped. And that's.
- [41:30]
Tessa Dunlop
Now, hang on a minute. It was an inquiry, so he relaunched an inquiry, didn't he?
- [41:35]
Ian Dale
Paused the scheme, pending a review of it. Yeah, and they've decided basically not. I mean, they've made one or two little tweaks. But when you have people being released early who've committed incredibly serious offenses like manslaughter or terrorism, you do have to wonder what, what the priorities are. And is, is that keeping the public safe? Safe? No, it is not. And I think the public are going to react very Badly when these people are released in September. Now I was talking to Jackie about this last night and she, she said, well, maybe I shouldn't put words into her mouth, but I mean, she basically said, look, the, the releases were so far down the line in terms of organizing it that it would be difficult to row it back completely without causing a prison crisis in November. Now I get that, but what I don't get is why on earth they are releasing people who have committed very serious offenses. Why aren't they releasing people, even if they've only served a fraction of their sentences, who've committed non dangerous offenses? Surely that would be more acceptable to the general public.
- [42:43]
Tessa Dunlop
I wonder if there's not a case here of looking into the prisons are so full. First of all, I think there's befuddled thinking because there's a level of panic going on in the justice system at the moment. If you're looking at someone who's convicted and been convicted because he's killed on the roads, he's a dangerous driver. Presumably you remove his license for life, so thus you take away his ability to be a danger.
- [43:10]
Ian Dale
I'm not sure that's the case, but
- [43:13]
Tessa Dunlop
I would, that's essential, isn't it, that he can never drive again?
- [43:16]
Ian Dale
You and I might think so, but.
- [43:18]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, if you're going to release him early, that is surely for the duration of what would have been a sentence, he doesn't get to drive.
- [43:24]
Ian Dale
Well, of course, but you, you just said for life.
- [43:26]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, I would, I would. I think if he's taken a life on the road, there's a big question as to whether he should ever be allowed on the road again. I mean.
- [43:33]
Ian Dale
Yes, well, using that logic, if you take a life, then you should forfeit your own.
- [43:38]
Tessa Dunlop
No, no, it's just about the, the, about being a danger. And if the danger he presents is on the road, certainly for the entire duration of his sentence, he needs to, we need to make sure he doesn't have access to his license.
- [43:53]
Ian Dale
I think, I mean, Liam is not about the early release scheme. It is about the, the general assumption that anyone who's sentenced to say, 16 years is automatically going to be released after half of it. And I've, I've always thought why say it's a 16 year sentence when we all know that they'll be out after eight. I think that's a flaw in the system. Fine. You. I think there should be discretion to release people early, but only if they've behaved themselves while they've been in prison and shown exemplary behavior and actually done what they need to do to reintegrate society. I mean, I would not allow anybody to release, be released from prison unless they can read, write and count. And yet 40% I think it is, of prisoners are functionally illiterate and enumerate.
- [44:40]
Tessa Dunlop
But, but the point is in, there's no scope for rehabilitation that you can't teach them to read. Not when your prison population is packed into the gunnels.
- [44:51]
Ian Dale
If you are, if you are committed to rehabilitation and to prison education, you will implement it. It's a choice. All government is about ch, it is about choice.
- [45:00]
Tessa Dunlop
But when you've got a 97% prison, full prison population, that is not the capacity, staffing or in terms of allow people.
- [45:10]
Ian Dale
No, you're missing my point completely. Of course there is capacity. If you want to make capacity and you're willing to, you're willing to invest the funds to improve the prison education.
- [45:20]
Tessa Dunlop
But there is a lag time in building apparent, according to the Labour Party. They say this as if sounding proud. They're building faster and more prisons than built in the Victorian times, which. The same could be said about reservoirs. But anyway, the point is they're building as fast as they can on that.
- [45:33]
Ian Dale
They're building 10 reservoirs.
- [45:35]
Tessa Dunlop
So they are, but I don't know
- [45:36]
Ian Dale
how many more you want.
- [45:38]
Tessa Dunlop
It's gonna until 2050. So let's hope that the prisons are erected before 2050. But given that we are at a crisis point at the moment and people have to be released. I agree about learning to read and write so that they're equipped for the outside world and don't reoffend. But actually in the meantime, while the prison spaces are being being built, where do these men predominantly have their lessons? How do you allow access? How do you increase the. Even just the prison staffing population so that they can take people to their lessons to read and write the whole thing. The problem is when you've got individuals incarcerated, the human power required to move them for A to B, to free them up, to give them access to learning, etc. All of it requires extraordinary infrastructure and scrutiny and it's not available. There's no, there's no capacity for it at all at the moment.
- [46:24]
Ian Dale
But just saying it's not available doesn't mean to say that it can't be available. I mean, that's just giving up.
- [46:29]
Tessa Dunlop
I agree, in the future, but right now there's a crisis, so people have to be released. And the political question is which people?
- [46:36]
Ian Dale
But you're not listening. Well, exactly, that's What I said at the beginning. Why are they releasing the dangerous people when they could be releasing the not dangerous people?
- [46:43]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, okay, so then you don't. So then you're. You're. You're. I don't know, persistent shoplifter who shoplifted four times. Times. Perhaps he's. I don't know. You know, how do you deter him from shoplifting again if ultimately you don't give him a custodial sentence?
- [47:00]
Ian Dale
You find another form of punishment. There are plenty of ways to punish people without putting them in prison. Simple as that.
- [47:05]
Tessa Dunlop
Okay, well, then we need to. We need to. I agree that I wouldn't put a shoplifter in prison, but then I. The question does stand. How do you stop this persistent shoplifting, which is only going to get worse because of the cost of lifting.
- [47:17]
Ian Dale
Right. Do you have another one?
- [47:19]
Tessa Dunlop
I do have another one. It's on. Sort of studying for a PhD. So maybe after the break for that one or. I've got one on our day as well.
- [47:26]
Ian Dale
Okay, Jason, our day. Let's have a quick break.
- [47:31]
Grainger Advertiser
Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [48:02]
Tessa Dunlop
So courtesy of our Jason Arday story. I was speaking to Albion Makona, who's a big fan of the show show, very loyal listener and sense his love. Political commentator on the right man of color himself, and he said he loved our conversation.
- [48:16]
Ian Dale
And a massive gayer, obviously.
- [48:18]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, and gay. Yeah. I thought just to throw in also his heterosexual, his sexualities and overkill.
- [48:24]
Ian Dale
He ticks every box he does.
- [48:27]
Tessa Dunlop
That's why I invited him around to my home to eat strawberries. Good for my metrics. So he loved our conversation. But not everyone agreed, Ian. A lot of people took offense that we were two white people talking about like this.
- [48:38]
Ian Dale
Oh, for sake off.
- [48:40]
Tessa Dunlop
I knew that would.
- [48:41]
Ian Dale
I mean, honestly, do people not have I reward.
- [48:46]
Tessa Dunlop
Among your roster of guests in Edinburgh, is there anyone of color?
- [48:50]
Ian Dale
Do you know? I don't look at my guests in terms of color. Yes. Nazanin Zagari. Radcliffe, since you're asking, that's the One that falls immediately to mind. There may be others that. But I'm not going to go through every single guest who meets some sort of ridiculous quota. It's like people say, well, you haven't got many people on the right, have you? You know, because I don't, I don't curate my guest list by people's political opinions. I create my guest list on are they going to be interesting and will they attract an audience?
- [49:18]
Tessa Dunlop
It was a mere coincidence that on the first weekend LGBTQ plus were well represented. Anyway, this guy Trent Mango is his handle. He says of Jason Arday, he's clearly a bright, intelligent chance. So ard argue it's less a case of DEI higher diversity, equity and inclusion higher and more, along with his credentials and personality, he plain old bullshitted his way into the role. This, by the way, for those who've come off planet, ZOG is the youngest black male professor at Cambridge who's been exposed to something of a Walter Mitty. The message continues. It's happened before. Are you bullshitting your way into a role? And it will happen again. But we never hear this much much if it is a white person doing it.
- [50:06]
Ian Dale
Well, wouldn't we, I mean, wouldn't we hear about it if a white person had told the amount of lies that he clearly has? I think that's a very weak argument.
- [50:17]
Tessa Dunlop
I think it works both ways. I think he's got a point. I don't think we would have heard about it. I mean, what if it was the youngest ever white male professor? I just don't think it would have got the traction. However, I also would argue that Simon and schuster, the purported £1.4 million book advance, I wonder if that would have been given to a white male professor.
- [50:40]
Ian Dale
So was it given by all?
- [50:43]
Tessa Dunlop
Do we know that that that's the figure that's been rumoured.
- [50:47]
Ian Dale
Albee, have Simon and Schuster actually confirmed it? Because I suspect that's another lie.
- [50:53]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, Alby said that he had quite good authority that he'd been given a life changing amount of money for his book.
- [51:00]
Grainger Advertiser
Book.
- [51:00]
Tessa Dunlop
I don't know if it's 1.4 million.
- [51:03]
Ian Dale
Well, the only people that would get 1.4 million. I mean, I speak to somebody who knows a bit about this, having been in publishing. The only people that would get 1.4 million would be like Cristiano Ronaldo, somebody like that.
- [51:16]
Tessa Dunlop
I do think it sounds like an inflated price. Absolutely, I agree with you. But there's sort of the buzz around this story. People are saying, oh, it's got everything I. For the August silly season to grow legs and to run. And I think by saying it's got everything that also includes that he is a man of colour. Therefore there is more scrutiny and interest. I think we have to own this. Probably wouldn't get the traction.
- [51:41]
Ian Dale
Yeah but that's, that's because a white person wouldn't have been positively discriminated for, would they? So you can't really make that analogy.
- [51:48]
Tessa Dunlop
Well it. And that's the problem. It's comparing apples with pears. Although you know, would if a white person had presented with these outlandish stories and claims of athleticism and academic prowess. Yeah. Would. Yeah you. Would he have been. Would he have been given the air time and the position? I don't know. But anyway he his way into the role on some level, a theatrical level at least we have to applaud him.
- [52:15]
Ian Dale
Okay, if you say so. Nikki Larkin says I was completely bemused by the taxation conversation in the Sunday Times. Rich List. Most of these billionaires have global or international businesses. Changes by HMRC in the UK make very little difference as they will be paying tax across the world. The world. There has been various attempts to have an agreed global corporation tax rate. However, it's gone nowhere and it's incredibly unlikely to be agreed at a global level anytime soon. Many of these billionaires are paying more tax in the UK per year than Tessa and yourself will do in your lifetimes. This discussion was completely pointless as there was zero understanding of global and business taxes from the doctor. I also agree with you that the Rich Live list, the Rich List value divided by GDP calculation is meaningless. Tessa is incredibly knowledgeable, but on this area she gets a D minus.
- [53:08]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh dear. D minus. Lisa didn't get an E, which is what you got for economics A level.
- [53:13]
Ian Dale
I did, but I still. That's still a pass.
- [53:16]
Tessa Dunlop
So Nicky's given me a pass with your own low bench.
- [53:20]
Ian Dale
Interesting that that stuck in your mind though, isn't it?
- [53:22]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah. It's important to always know where you can best your co host partner. I think the GDP question is significant because it demonstrates the disproportionate amount of wealth that these tiny number of individuals wield over us. So if in 1981 when the rich List was first introduced, they could consume 5% of British GDP wealth in any given year, now that's risen for the same number of people, same cohort, it's risen to 20% percent. And that means that they have expanded their reach and their wealth and yet they are still relatively out of reach. Or more than ever out of reach when it comes to taxation. So I do think it's an issue.
- [54:06]
Ian Dale
Nikki is clearly disagreeing with you. So anyway, do you have another one?
- [54:11]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, I've got several on, on just generally on the weather and whether it's okay to be obsessed with the weather. A lot of people have said two. One guy, guy called Travis says, oh, so it's, it's not okay to talk about the weather with Ian when there's a drought on, but it will be okay in October when it starts raining again.
- [54:32]
Ian Dale
Well, that's a complete travesty of my position. I've never said it isn't okay to talk about the weather and climate change.
- [54:38]
Tessa Dunlop
I think there is a sense.
- [54:40]
Ian Dale
All I've said is that continually catastrophizing about it doesn't persuade anybody.
- [54:46]
Tessa Dunlop
And as we've discussed many, many times before, I think that actually because, because they were encouraged that it was too catastrophic the way in which they were presenting their metrics. There's quite a significant report given to government that apparently Keir Starmer's administration buried because they decided it was too negative. Which looks at what happens when, for example, Himalayan rivers dry up and then you have Pakistan at the throat of India already, by the way, at the throat of each other. And what happens between those two countries, if you look. And that seemed like pie in the sky, perhaps when it landed on Keir Starmer's desk a couple of years years ago. But now that we've got the Rhine and the Danube running dry, and what's fascinating is the fallout, the political fallout from that in the east of Europe, where each of these countries, it waters 10 countries. But of course, the further downstream you go, the more they pass the buck as to who's mishandling and overusing the water back upstream. So in Romania, countries like Romania and Bulgaria, where anyway, the sort of far right disinformation, hold on those nations is, I would say, verging on extreme. It makes reform in our country look like, like pussycats. They are not saying this is climate change or even owning it's about climate change. They're saying, oh, well, look at the way Austria uses its water and the bloody Hungarians. You know, it's all sitting in a basin in Budapest. When any sane minded individual can look at the photographs of the Danube in Budapest and see that it's been dried to a trickle. But I think it is a hugely. It's a dynamite political question and it's the reason why, why we need to hold on to Scotland like Helion because they've got the water in in future decades. Please be nice north of the boardroom. Behave yourself. I'm.
- [56:23]
Ian Dale
I'm desperately trying to.
- [56:25]
Tessa Dunlop
Good.
- [56:26]
Ian Dale
Ella says. I've been meaning to write to Ian for a long time. I've been a fan for almost 10 years now and I wanted to write in as I thought you would both find it amusing that you featured in my wedding newspaper on 17 July in the meet the wedding party section. I described one of my greatest friends as Ella's spad, fail safe and trusted sounding board. The Alistair Campbell to her Rory Stewart. The Ian Dale to her Tessa Dunlop. Which went down very well, at least with the fellow politics geeks. I first started listening to Ian's radio show on my year abroad in 2017. At that time I had a placement role in Barcelona that paid one euro an hour, which meant I would always walk home. Obviously no minimum wage in Spain, which meant I would always walk home rather than take the bus bus. And the timing coincided with Ian's show. It became a home comfort of sorts. I like being thought of as a home comfort, custard comfort as a link back to the UK and I still enjoy it to this day especially cross question. Then I became a fan of the for the many podcast all talk interviews and now where politics meets history. It's kept me company through many commutes, stints working overseas and kitchen cleans. I love the history elements that Tessa has brought to the show and to plug the pod to many friends friends and the most fun political history podcast out there. I'm now one of your listeners based in New York. Thank you for all the great content and I hope you feel better soon. Ian, this is, I mean I've read that out not just as sort of to for both our egos but it is amazing when you meet people and they tell you where they're from, how they come across the podcast, what they like about it and it's really quite heartwarming. I've had quite a few people up here tell me how much they, they love it and to the extent that sort of some people, they actually come to shows because they've heard the podcast And I had one guy come up to me yesterday and he said I've booked tickets for every single one of your shows. I'm thinking Bloody hell, 14 shows.
- [58:29]
Tessa Dunlop
How much did that set him back? Says the Scott and Tessa.
- [58:31]
Ian Dale
Well, the tickets are 1850 each so I can't work that out but quite a lot of money and, and I've asked In a couple of the shows, how many people are coming to more than one? And, like, loads of hands go up. Because when I first started this, my original intention was to do 10 minutes of stand up at the beginning, but then I thought, well, what if people come to more than one show? I can't do the same stand up routine in every show, so. So I abandoned that, which is probably just as well, because I'm not as funny as I think I am. Have you gone.
- [58:59]
Tessa Dunlop
No, I'm listening to you.
- [59:00]
Ian Dale
Oh, I thought you'd gone silent.
- [59:01]
Tessa Dunlop
I just thought you were gonna. I just was. You know what?
- [59:03]
Grainger Advertiser
What?
- [59:04]
Tessa Dunlop
I. It was just waiting, really. I thought might have been a.
- [59:08]
Ian Dale
Well, that shows why I shouldn't do comedy.
- [59:10]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, I thought there might have been a punchline, if I'm honest.
- [59:14]
Ian Dale
Right, we need to finish soon because I've got to get to.
- [59:16]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah. Final question is just actually about history. I wanted to get in touch. This is from Dermot, someone who's keen to study both history and politics. He's done an undergraduate and a master's in history. We have a highly educated audience here and I hope you realize this.
- [59:28]
Ian Dale
I do. Some would say elite in.
- [59:31]
Tessa Dunlop
Very elite. And I'm keen to listen, I'm keen to progress onto a PhD. I'm struggling to come up with a starting point and narrowing down a top topic. I was wondering how you might have any brief advice or general tips on your own experience, how to kickstart the process. I finished my master's two years ago and now he wants to go back into it. I've got to say, it is, for me, one of the real dilemmas of the PhD. And it never ceases to amaze me how PhDs remain popular pursuits, partly because they're your passport into teaching and being seen in tertiary education. But they are so narrow in a world where we're all expected to be experts on everything. But I would argue that actually, as disinformation and misinformation and the AI distortions push their way down the pipeline, the deeper and narrower you can go, in some ways, more power to your elbow, because easy access to information is available to anyone now. The Internet has democratized that. But if you can actually plow a new furrow and prove that you can do that and you can deliver something, something into the public domain, that will get traction, then I would fund you.
- [60:40]
Ian Dale
Well, I think we'd better call it quits there, because it is now, what is it? 10 past 10 on Monday morning?
- [60:48]
Tessa Dunlop
To confirm we're next meeting on Friday morning to talk about the fallout with the Bin in Clacton.
- [60:54]
Ian Dale
Oh, that's right, yes, yes, I forgot about that. Let me.
- [60:57]
Tessa Dunlop
I don't want you to. To double me up with a one
- [61:00]
Ian Dale
of your interviews on Friday day. I have an appointment at 1 o' clock at Spec Savers in Crowborough where I have to do a field of vision test to get my license back.
- [61:12]
Tessa Dunlop
Where is Crowborough, Ian?
- [61:14]
Ian Dale
It's about eight miles from Tunbridge Wells.
- [61:16]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh, so you'll be back home by Friday? You're not still going to be in Scotland?
- [61:19]
Ian Dale
I'm. Well, I'm coming. I'll be home on Wednesday night after our Whitaker's funeral. Because tomorrow after the final show I booked a cab to take me to Dollar, which is an hour west of Edinburgh. And at 9:30 when they. When the. I'm doing a talk there, when it finishes, hashtag Mordan is driving up from Kent to pick me up to drive me through the night down to South Devon.
- [61:46]
Tessa Dunlop
Bloody hell.
- [61:48]
Ian Dale
That's the kind of friend you need, Tessa.
- [61:50]
Tessa Dunlop
Yeah, well, count me out if that's the bar, the true inner circle.
- [61:54]
Ian Dale
No, believe me, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want you to drive me.
- [61:57]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh. Oh, well, okay. That ends on perhaps a sexist but definitely slightly offensive note. Why do people always question my driving? Funnily enough, because.
- [62:06]
Ian Dale
Because strangely enough, we. We probably think that you wouldn't be able to concentrate on it.
- [62:10]
Tessa Dunlop
Well, strangely enough, I will be driving tomorrow in Romania, which has, I think the most lethal roads per day on the road in, In Europe, in the eu. Yes, I am going to remember Romania. I'm going to Mania tomorrow. I'm doing the pod remotely.
- [62:25]
Ian Dale
Remind me to tell you about something when we've finished recording. It's a to do with Romania. Oh, yes, but I don't. I don't want to say it on the pod.
- [62:33]
Tessa Dunlop
No. For those of you who think that my GCSE campaign is mothballed temporarily just to reboot, I can assure you all that I've got some serious backing.
- [62:41]
Ian Dale
Yeah, yes.
- [62:42]
Tessa Dunlop
Enough said.
- [62:43]
Ian Dale
Enough said. Shut up. Because you know you're going to drop a hint and we need to not do that.
- [62:48]
Tessa Dunlop
Okay, Love you all.
- [62:49]
Ian Dale
Shut up, woman.
- [62:51]
Tessa Dunlop
Oh God. You bloody man.
- [62:54]
Ian Dale
Where Politics meets history@global.com. if you'd like to ask a question in a future episode or at Where
- [63:00]
Tessa Dunlop
Politics Meets History on the Instagram, please do join us there.
- [63:03]
Ian Dale
Goodbye. This has been a global production. We all have routines. I'm gibran and with diabetes, 80s. Mine was finger sticks Sometimes I skipped them because they hurt. The Freestyle Libre 3 CGM changed that. It gives me glucose insights without finger sticks. Learn more @freestylelibre US finger sticks are required if your glucose alarms and readings do not match symptoms or when you see Check blood glucose symbol for the first 12 hours. The views expressed should not be used for medical diagnosis or treatment as a substitute for professional medical advice. Individual circumstances may vary. For prescription only Safety info found@freestyleibre US
- [63:41]
Grainger Advertiser
Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.