Am I Being Gaslit?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Am I Being Gaslit?"

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Date: August 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this intimate one-on-one intervention call, iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel engages with a caller ("C") struggling to discern whether she is being gaslit by her partner or if she’s simply "overly sensitive." Through probing questions, real-life anecdotes, and deep psychological insights, Esther helps the caller navigate the emotional confusion created by chronic manipulation, self-doubt, and blurred boundaries in her romantic relationship. The session explores the subtleties of gaslighting, the difficulty of setting boundaries, cycles of abuse, self-understanding, and the painful ambivalence of loving someone who may not be healthy for you.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Caller’s Question and Emotional State

• Caller’s Core Dilemma (00:34):
  C wonders if her partner is gaslighting her or if she's too sensitive. The partner accuses her of treating him poorly, of being "overly boundaried," and often deflects blame onto her.
• Emotional Impact:
  C admits to not knowing whether she’s a "bad person," whether her feelings and needs are valid, or if she’s truly being mistreated. This confusion is a hallmark of gaslighting.

Concrete Relationship Examples (03:47, 10:09, 22:26)

• Recurring Domestic Incidents:
  C shares several stories, including being shouted at while ill and menstruating, being accused of not being nice minutes before a social gathering, and disagreements about food needs and being contradicted about her physical hunger.
• Gaslighting Tactics Identified (10:47, 23:53):
  • Reality manipulation and blame-shifting: Partner accuses her of things he is doing.
  • Coercion and questioning reality: Argues over definitions (e.g., whether he was "shouting").
  • Scapegoating and emotional escalation: When C is vulnerable or at her limit, her partner increases the stress by threatening the relationship or questioning her mental health.

The Cycle of Gaslighting and Self-Doubt (06:42, 08:29, 09:14)

• Chronic Confusion:
  Esther explains how people subjected to gaslighting often question their own sanity and begin to believe negative things about themselves.
• Key Insight (08:05):
  "You are telling me that I’m doing to you what you’re exactly doing to me." – Esther Perel
• Common Gaslighting Phrases (08:47):
  Esther enumerates seven phrases, including “You’re overthinking it,” “It’s not a big deal,” “You’re too emotional,” which frequently occur in these dynamics.

The Role of Boundaries and History (05:26, 13:31)

• Burnout Pattern:
  C shares her history of struggling with boundaries in work contexts and how that mirrors her relationship dynamic. She describes past professional burnout resulting from being unable to say no.
• Parallel to Relationship:
  Esther draws parallels between C’s work history (inability to say no, being overextended) and her romantic relationship.

The Complication of Love and Ambivalence (11:31, 29:01)

• Loving the Gaslighter:
  C describes her partner as her "best friend," "kind," and "warm" — and feels torn between deep affection and mistreatment.
• Duality of Behavior:
  Esther emphasizes that someone can be a wonderful friend yet a controlling or emotionally abusive partner. These qualities don’t have to align in all relationships.
• Memorable Quote (14:49):
  "He also needs to control you. But he is also intensely insecure, and therefore he needs you to be one down." – Esther Perel

The Influence of Family and Past (12:22, 37:23)

• Esther asks:
  “Who did this to you? Who did you see do this in your family and nobody stopped them?” (12:22)
  She advises that these cycles are often learned behaviors witnessed or endured in one’s family of origin.

Friends and Outside Perspectives (16:01, 20:55)

• Isolation by Silence:
  C has spoken a little to friends and her sister, but feels inhibited from fully disclosing her partner’s behavior out of respect for his reputation among mutual friends.
• Reaction of Friends:
  One friend flagged concerning dynamics early, coinciding with C’s own mental health breakdown from work stress, suggesting a pattern of “piling on” when she is at her lowest.

The Gaslighting Cycle and the Role of Denial (24:56, 34:14)

• Esther’s Observations:
  Both C and her partner are in forms of denial: he denies his responsibility, she denies the severity by maintaining she could leave anytime—and thus stays.
• Hostage Situation Analogy:
  “I will be able to once again liberate myself with my friends… and I'm going to say, how come you never told me, and they'll tell me. We kept trying to tell you, but you couldn't hear it because you were completely enveloped in this saga.” (24:56)

Ownership, Change, and Responsibility (25:55, 29:25)

• Attempted Responsibility:
  C believes her partner is trying to change, sharing examples of him sending her videos on relationship tools, but Esther notes this is superficial unless he shows real ownership in practice.
• Structural Change:
  Suggestion: Try being just friends if he genuinely brings out good qualities as a friend (29:01). This may allow access to the positive traits she values.

The Path Forward: Breaking the Cycle (34:48, 37:24)

• Practice Saying No:
  Esther suggests C may be with this man specifically to practice the difficult skill of saying “no,” even though he doesn’t respect her boundaries.
• Essential Question:
  “Is this how I want to live?” (37:24)
• Ending the Cycle:
  Esther posits the deeper question is not whether C is being gaslit, but where the challenge of self-protection comes from—and how to break entrenched cycles of choosing unavailable or controlling partners.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Doubting Oneself (06:57):
  “People who are gaslit often end up feeling... they’re doubting themselves, that they’re confused, that they no longer trust their own sanity.” – Esther Perel

• On Common Gaslighting Behaviors (10:47):
  “It’s either reality manipulation, scapegoating, coercion, or straight up lying… When you shift, the blame is another common tactic.” – Esther Perel

• On Love and Control (14:49):
  “Regardless of how much he loves you, he still would need to learn to differentiate and be able to let you have an experience and respond caringly and compassionately to it without having to decide if your experience is valid or not, because he’s the master and the judge.” – Esther Perel

• On Denial and Agency (34:14):
  "He has his denial… but you have your denial, which is, ‘This isn’t really happening. I could walk away at any time. I am a strong woman.’… So it’s one denial meeting another denial, so to speak.” – Esther Perel

• On Breaking the Cycle (38:26):
  “Why me? Smart, accomplished, professional, insightful, autonomous woman. Find myself in relationships with men where I end up in this kind of battered position. That is a very powerful question.” – Esther Perel

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Important Timestamps

• 00:34: Caller presents her core question regarding gaslighting vs. sensitivity.
• 03:47: Story of New Year’s incident — being berated while feeling ill.
• 05:26: Caller details her history with poor boundaries and work burnout.
• 06:42–09:14: Discussion of gaslighting definitions, pervasive self-doubt, and classic manipulative tactics.
• 10:09: Example of partner dismissing her hunger and then contradicting himself.
• 10:47: Esther outlines primary gaslighting tactics.
• 11:31: Caller expresses deep love and confusion.
• 12:22–13:31: Exploring the roots of behaviors in family history.
• 14:49: Esther synthesizes the dynamics: controlling, qualifying, invalidating.
• 16:01: Caller reflects on advice she’d give a friend in her situation.
• 20:55: Has caller spoken to friends or family? Friends flagged issues early.
• 22:26: Example of partner escalating stress during her vulnerabilities.
• 23:53: Esther summarizes all the gaslighting tactics present.
• 24:56: The “hostage” sense and friends seeing the truth.
• 25:55: Esther challenges the caller’s belief that the partner is truly changing.
• 29:01: Suggests the relationship may work better as a friendship (for now).
• 34:14: The role of mutual denial in prolonging the dynamic.
• 37:24: The essential question: “Is this how I want to live?”
• 38:26: The “why me?” question for future exploration.

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Conclusion

Esther expertly guides the caller toward recognizing and naming the emotional abuse present in her relationship. The episode ends with a call to deep self-examination: Where did this difficulty in setting boundaries originate, and what would it take to break the cycle? Esther reassures the caller ("You have the answer before you came to me") and leaves her — and listeners — with probing questions rather than simple answers, encouraging reflection and empowered decision-making. The session ends warmly, with gratitude expressed by the caller for the clarity and empathy Esther provides.

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This episode is a potent resource for anyone questioning their reality, struggling with self-doubt in a relationship, or seeking to understand the dynamics of gaslighting and the path to reclaiming agency and self-esteem.

Transcript

[A]

What you are about to hear is a classic. Esther calling A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

[B]

Hello. Hello.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

So you wrote the question or you recorded the question but if you could ask it to me again.

[C]

As we speak today I'm wondering if I'm being gaslit by my partner or if it's a case that I'm just being overly sensitive. I feel like there's that I get certain treatment when or alone that feels very hidden. But you know in speaking to him he says I'm overly sensitive, that like I'm overly boundaried and that I actually it's more that I'm treating him badly and he gets like angry at me for me being kind of bad and he admits his that sometimes his behavior isn't great and he's working on it and he's worked a lot on it. I just have no idea if I'm basically a bad person and if I'm treating him like crap and not being sensitive to him because that's what it sounds like.

[B]

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[D]

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[B]

so tell me something. Let's just go a little bit back. How did you come to formulate the question the way you do? What is the history of your relationship that led you to this question? Am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive?

[C]

So he is a tendency. So, for example, over New Year's, we went away together. We were in the car and I wasn't feeling well, and he just kept on, like, shouting at me and kind of giving out to me and telling me that I wasn't being nice to him, and he was shouting at me. And originally I thought he was kind of joking and I was like, yeah, no, I am. But I was quite premenstrual at the time and I. I was menstruating and I felt awful. So I was just kind of a bit of a curmudgeon. And I was like, yeah, I know, I feel bad. Just let me feel bad. I know where I am. Like, this is grand. And he just kept on shouting like, you're not being nice to me. You're not being nice to me. And, like, we were literally going to our friend's doorstep and, like, he just left me there and was just. Just acted like everything was perfectly normal. And it seems to often be as well with social settings that will be going out and he'll do something to pull the rug out from underneath me and be like, what's your problem? Another example is I was at therapy and I came back and I wasn't feeling particularly great. We had been talking about boundaries because I do have concerns that my boundaries aren't very good and it's something that I work on.

[B]

What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? That's a big statement, you know, and one in which only you know what you mean by it.

[C]

Yeah. So I know that I don't necessarily know how to put up boundaries. I was in a. I was in a. A job before. Basically, I worked myself to a state of very poor health. And a lot of that had to do with working with someone who wouldn't let me say no. So no matter how much I was like, I'm not available, they just kept on pushing me. And also that particular industry, in that particular job, there was a real need for me. There was nobody else to do the job. I had to travel and move and I was exhausted. But because there was such a need for me, I. I let myself, I suppose, but I felt like I didn't have a choice. I let myself just get torn into that and away from my life and away from the people that I care about. And. And eventually I got to a point where I completely burnt out.

[B]

And you're telling me this also because in some way something parallel is happening between you and your boyfriend.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Right. You are on the verge of burnout. If I ask you, you know, because you say, am I being gaslit or am I overly sensitive? Which of course is what people who are gaslit often end up feeling.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that they are being overly sensitive, that they are not clear, that they're doubting themselves, that they're confused, that they no longer trust their own sanity.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, you went to look for the definition of what being gaslit means.

[C]

I definitely looked it up at some point, but I don't quite remember it at this moment.

[B]

So let me. You know, without even defining the term, if you're telling me I'm in a relationship where I don't trust that what I think has validity, I find myself often saying I feel something and then I'm being blamed for the very thing that I just uttered. The blame is constantly shifting. I am accused of being the gaslighter. And then I end up completely confused. And it makes me question the situation. And it's like, you know what? There's what we call in my field, projective identification. You know, you are telling me that I'm doing to you what you're exactly doing to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I distrust myself. I begin to question my mental health because you keep telling me that my mental health is not steady or something happens and you tell me that's not what happened, or that it is your fault if it happened, or that I'm doing these things and I'm saying these mean things because I actually am trying to help you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or that it's not such a big deal. So what if you're menstruating? That shouldn't explain why you're treating me the way you are. Or that you're overthinking it, or that when, I mean, I was just joking. Or that you're too emotional. These are kind of seven common gaslighting phrases.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if any of these are continuously occurring to you or if you simply, even without that say, you know, I am constantly questioning myself, I'm constantly doubting myself, I'm constantly in a state of confusion, etc, etc. The answer to your question doesn't really matter. What you know is that this is not a good situation.

[C]

But the thing Is like, that's the thing. Is like,

[B]

now you're going to give me the other side, but we also have nice times. But when I'm about to pull away, he apologizes profusely and he promises that he will change, that he's working on it, and that this will never be happening again until two hours later.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And now you're going to see Saul back and forth in the ambivalence. You know, here are all these things. But maybe. What if what he says has validity and is true? And maybe I am indeed so insecure, and maybe I do indeed have a problem with boundaries, which, of course, I'm having with him, too. And so in the end, maybe he knows me better than I know myself.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And when I say I'm hungry, he says, no, you're not really hungry. You shouldn't be hungry right now. And I'm beginning to wonder, well, maybe then I'm not hungry.

[C]

Yeah. That's literally like, what happens. I'll be like, oh, let's get some food. And he'll be like, no, no. Well, I'm. I need something. And I'll end up getting like a protein bar or something to tide me over until we're eating. And then. And then he'll be like, oh, yeah, by the way, while you went into the shop to get a protein bar, I got a chicken sandwich. And I'm just like, what? But it's. Yeah, it comes from everywhere. It feels very controlling.

[B]

It's either reality manipulation, scapegoating, coercion, or straight up lying. Those are probably four of the main gaslighting tactics. Shifting blames would be another. When you shift, the blame is another common tactic. And the interesting thing, as I listen to you, is you have the answer to your question every time you give me another example to reinforce that you actually know what's happening.

[C]

But the thing is that he has shown me in so many ways that he does love me. And he, like, we have the. Honestly, the best time. He's my best friend in the world. Like, I. I don't know how to lose him. And, like, that's the thing is, like, I see him as a really good person. I see him as like a really kind and warm and friendly. And if you see him with his friends, he is incredible. Like, incredible. Like, it's so. So confusing. Exactly. Again, but then he turns around and does that. That to me. But he. Honestly, that's the thing. I'm just like, I wish that I could wash it off.

[B]

No. A question I would ask him yeah. Is who did this to you? And nobody stopped them. Who did you see do this in your family? And nobody stopped them.

[C]

I feel like that would really be really hard for him. And I would be worried about challenge. Not challenging. I think it would for him. Something like that would be.

[B]

But do you know.

[C]

I'd imagine. I have an idea.

[B]

That's my question. My question is, you know, he may be a wonderful friend, but that does not dictate how he's going to be with his girlfriend. Those two things don't necessarily always go in sync. I would ask him, where did he learn this? And who did he see do this? And who never stopped it? And I would then ask you this parallel question. This, of course, is not a question you're going to ask him, but I'm asking that to you because you probably know him. How long are you together?

[C]

Two years.

[B]

Okay. And then I'm going to ask you, who did you see in such a dynamic? Where did you learn not to be able to say no? Because this is not about, am I being gaslit or am I being overly sensitive? Without defining, you know, without focusing just on these two terms. You've described the reality. And then you say, but he loves me. And that may very much be the case as well. But he also needs to control you. But he is also intensely insecure, and therefore he needs you to be one down. But he also has a hard time hearing you say, I'm hungry, without instantly denying it or defying you or qualifying it, or deciding if you have a right to be hungry at this moment or not, because he knows better than you what your stomach needs. So regardless of how much he loves you, he still would need to learn to differentiate and to be able to let you have an experience and respond caringly and compassionately to it without having to decide if your experience is valid or not before he decides how he wants to respond. Because he's the master and the judge.

[C]

Oh, my God. Yeah. That is qualifying my experience. That's it. It's like every single experience I have, all of my friendships, all of my work, it's like it's being qualified. That's exactly it. And, like, being like, you're doing this right and you're doing that wrong, it's like being stuck in a box. And the thing is that I know that I am brilliant and I have beautiful friendships, and I have. I. I was excellent at that job, and I am excellent at most things that you put in front of me. And I feel that really deeply. I know what I'm doing and I care about myself and I've had to do a lot of work on myself and I'm continuing to learn and all of you know, unconscious of where I go up and where I go down. But.

[B]

And if you had a friend, since you have very good friends, if one of your friends was in a situation that is similar to yours, what would you say?

[C]

Just step away. It's not, it just doesn't. It's not that easy. It just doesn't. Completely entwined in each other's lives as well.

[B]

And then what would you say to your friend? So your friend says, it's not that easy. We've got our lives completely intertwined with each other. I've invested two years of my life here. I know he loves me, but I'm being obliterated. I'm losing my mind. I'm continuously put in a situation where I have to doubt myself.

[C]

Yeah, I'd be like, I'll take care of you. I don't know.

[B]

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[B]

Have you spoken with your girlfriends or your friends, period?

[C]

Yeah, a little bit. I don't like to speak badly about him because they all know him. So I want, you know, to honor the relationship in a way. I've spoken to my sister a bit

[B]

and has anybody said keep going?

[C]

Yeah, and then I've I had one friend who was like, had flagged it early and when she flagged it, that was also the time literally the same day when I had the breakdown for work or the day that I got literally a cert from my doctor being like, you can't go to work any. You can't do that job anymore. And I was not sleeping through the night and I was literally talking to him about it and he was like, well, I'm thinking about maybe we should break up. So he nearly always, when I'm at a level of peak stress, he'll Put something else on top. And then I never went back to work after that.

[B]

So if you are struggling with something, he will trump you. If you bring up a feeling, he'll bring up another one that he thinks in that moment is more important than the one you just brought up.

[C]

Yeah, every single time. So that boundary, when I was talking about that boundaries thing, he flipped when I. When I was back from the therapist. And I was just like, literally standing in the kitchen being like, I just need to eat some dinner. So I was like, right, I'm just going to make myself some food. I'm going to take care of myself. I'm going to nourish my body. And I was like, okay, I just need. You know, I'm a bit weird right now. I just need a little bit of space because I. Blah, blah, blah. And then he started at me and I was like, no, I can't handle this right now. I've explained the fact that I'm feeling very vulnerable. I'm just, like, letting you know that. And he was in a great mood when I came in. And then suddenly he turned and then he started shouting at me and shouting at me. And I was like, stop shouting at me. And then he freaked out about me having. Me not understanding what a boundary was, me turning my boundaries against him. And then he made me. We had this long discussion about what qualifies, shouting or not. And then we literally got into the depths of, like, right, what shouting. What the semiotics of the word shouting is to both of us. And then he made me force. He made me say that he hadn't been shouting at me in regard. In terms of the way that he understands the word shouting.

[B]

So you cover all four, right? You cover the coercive strategies, you cover the shifting of the blame. You cover the questioning of your reality. You cover the manipulation, the disqualifying. So you've answered your question. What has made it so difficult for you to know that you have to go or to act on it? Where does your challenge come from? In terms of saying no, in terms of saying, this is. I know I need to do, and I'll deal with the consequences. In fact, I'll be liberated. I'll suddenly realize how much I've been hijacked and what kind of a hostage situation this has been, and I will be able to once again liberate myself with my friends. And then my friends are going to start telling me how they had noticed it. That and the other. And I'm going to say, how come you never told Me and they'll tell me. We kept trying to tell you, but you couldn't hear it because you were complet enveloped in this saga.

[C]

Yeah. It's bizarre. I know that you're right. I know that you're brilliant.

[B]

You know, you've answered your questions, you have your answer. This is not a question of discernment. This is a question of. You've tried it before, you may try it again. He's going to beg you, he's going to plead you. He's going to be his best self for half an hour and he's a. He may be a perfectly good, kind person.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But he's got some things to deal with if he's going to be in a relationship. And so do you.

[C]

Yeah, well, yeah, I think that's the thing is like, I'm like, if I've tried so hard, you know, and I'm 35, have been in enough relationships and like he genuinely has worked a lot on himself and I can see how he's come along in a big way.

[B]

Do you know what? I don't know what you mean. Because every example you've given shows me somebody who has very little ability to see what he does. And of course, for any gaslighter, there must be a person that is, that is letting themselves be gaslit. These two go together. But there hasn't been a situation where you describe him saying, I realize, I notice, I take responsibility. I'm sorry, I was projecting, I was dumping. He has none of it.

[C]

Well, he has done that.

[B]

When. When you leave.

[C]

No, I mean that's. I think that's the thing about. We do talk after these things happen. Like, I've been listening to you forever. I never knew that he knew about you. And he sent me something like one of your YouTube videos about like when couples get to an impasse. And he was like, let's look at this and let's talk about this based on the tools that are there. And like, I really appreciate that. I can see him trying. But the thing is we're actually at a point right now where we're not really speaking and I asked for the keys back for my flat after the. Everything that happened that I've been kind of talking about recently, it was too much.

[B]

I mean, that piece of your excusing him and analyzing and justifying and excusing his behavior is part of the gas lit cycle. He's doing this, but he doesn't really mean to do this. He feels bad about it afterwards. And so now I need to make him feel better about him making me feel bad.

[C]

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[B]

This is twisted.

[C]

Completely twisted. Because I was on the phone to him yesterday. I wanted to let him know that I was going to be speaking to you because I thought that was respectful. I also was like, look, in the long run, like, I feel like we've been kind of running on kind of my. What I want. I just want to know what you want. And then, of course, it came back around to how much all of his friends told him that, like, he's great. And. And then I, of course, was like, well, you're a great person, and I want you to know that you're a good person. And I do think that. But it still comes around to, like, having this treatment, and I still seem to be the person going to him, being. Telling him that he's good, and then I'm the bad guy again.

[B]

And does that come from him as well? You're a wonderful person.

[C]

No, I guess you're a lovely person.

[B]

You're a lovely person. Okay. If you are indeed such close friends, and if he's indeed such a wonderful person, then you may want to find this relational structure that will actually highlight that being his friend may give you much more of the wonderful qualities that he has than being his girlfriend.

[C]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[B]

At least for right now. So he can stay in your life. It's not clear that he will. Generally, when that dynamic occurs, it's more common that the person will be more vindictive and not want anything to do with you. They'll try. They'll try. They'll come back. They'll come back until they finally realize that maybe they're not going to get what they want. And then they'll say, fuck you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But if he does stay, have him in your life, but have him in the structure of relationship that gives you access to the best qualities that he has. If he's such a wonderful friend, be a friend.

[C]

But I love him.

[B]

And, like, that is. That is a wonderful thing. But that doesn't mean you need to make a life in that dynamic. It doesn't change if people don't actively take ownership over what they do to create this kind of dynamic. And that means you and him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea, Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. Everything you need to start selling is included and ready for your first customer, you'll get tools like Shopify Checkout, which helps more customers finish their purchase. And when they come back, their details are already saved. One tap and they're done. Because when the time comes to make your first sale, you want to make things as easy for your customers as possible. With Shopify handling the setup and checkout, you have more time to focus on your next steps, whether that's planning your next campaign, developing your newest offering, or taking a well deserved nap. And Shopify says they power millions of businesses worldwide, from household names, names like Mattel and Gymshark, to small businesses just getting started with Shopify. Nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. Start your free trial at shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther shopify.com Esther

[D]

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Youm might need MIDI if you ever hairsprayed your bangs into a waterfall, layered slouch socks, tied a scrunchie to the bottom corner of your T shirt, or tried to go for a run with a CD player. If this took you down memory lane, you might need MIDI. Perimenopause can start 10 years before you actually go through menopause, so for some women, that can be as early as 35. Nobody ever told you that? Well, nobody told us either. That's why we built midi. If you're experiencing symptoms like night sweats, weight gain, or just generally don't feel like yourself anymore, you may be in perimenopause. But here's some good with the right care, these symptoms are treatable. Book a virtual visit with a menopause specialist at MIDI. Visit joinmidi.com to schedule with an expert who gets a specialist LED care. Virtual visits Insurance Eligible midlife needs MIDI results may vary. Medications prescribed only if clinically appropriate, based on a consultation with a clinician. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

[C]

One of the reasons that I contacted you is. I just want. I know that I'm autonomous in this relationship, but it's really hard to admit that I've let somebody walk all over me and that I haven't been strong enough to tell them to piss off. It makes me question myself so much more,

[B]

which is one of the reasons why these dynamics sometimes go on for a long time. Because he has his denial. His denial is to shift the blame on you, but you have your denial, which is, this isn't really happening. I could walk away at any time. I am a strong woman. I am autonomous. Nobody tells me what to do like that. But in fact, that's not what's happening. So it's one denial meeting another denial, so to speak.

[C]

Yeah, I hear you.

[B]

And when you just say, but I love him, so what? I mean, I hear you. It's a deep feeling. But the question remains, and what do you want to do? That your feelings of love are mired into a relationship that is ultimately going to make you lose your entire sense of yourself. Yeah. So you will continue to say, I love him, but the I will have dissolved in the process.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not easy. You're going to surround yourself with friends, and you're going to have to be honest with your friends and let them know what's going on. Not by blaming him, but by telling them that you found yourself in a relationship where instead of increasingly becoming bolder and stronger and. And more and more recognized, it's all the reverse that is happening. And that's not because of what he does. Only if on the other end, you say, I want to do some couples work, and I want us to both go and deal with this dynamic. Go ahead. It won't change alone. Somebody has to see this in action to be able to intervene.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Each of you will make perfect sense when you talk alone to your own respective therapists.

[C]

Yeah. Couples counseling is on the cards right now. We've seen a couples counselor before, and it didn't. She wasn't great. And my concern is that he's gonna charm them, and he's not going to show the truth of the dynamic when there's another person present.

[B]

Then you'll put that on the table, too.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

A good clinician sees the invisible and sometimes hears the inaudible.

[C]

I mean, thank goodness for you and thank goodness for this phone call. Like, I. It's just like clearing the clouds from my brain.

[B]

Look, I'm going to ask the question again, and we're going to say goodbye. But it is the question that you didn't answer. Which is, where does your challenge come from? Because you could say, you know, saying no is difficult for me. So I found a person with whom I can practice that muscle.

[C]

Right.

[B]

These things are a mind fuck.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But you may want to say, I want to practice my no. And I found the best place to do so because here is a person who doesn't hear any of them. So I practice boundaries with somebody who doesn't respect any of them or sees them all as an attack on him, or sees them as a weakness of mine, but they're all qualified. Or you may say, that doesn't have to be the way I'm looking for a relationship. I know you're 35 and I know that you love him and I know that you think you've had your share, but maybe that should bring you also a level of awareness that says, is this how I want to live?

[C]

I think that's the thing. It's like, I don't know how I'll have a healthy and wholesome relationship. I just keep on seem to getting. Get like battered or something.

[B]

Why me? Smart, accomplished, professional, insightful, autonomous woman. Find myself in relationships with men where I end up in this kind of battered position. That is a very powerful question.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And how do I learn to see it sooner rather than later? And how do I say I'm breaking the cycle and then act on it? Is this a good place to stop?

[C]

In my head, I'm only just beginning.

[B]

Because I'm leaving you with some big questions rather than slap answers. Because you have the answer to the question that you came with. You know the answer before you came to. What is the cycle that you are repeating? We didn't get to, but we suspect there is one because this is not your first time. Different. Different melodies for the same dance. If we were seeing each other regularly, this would be the moment where I say, to be continued. But it will be continued, but without me. But I'm inviting you to take this and do something with it.

[C]

I will. Thank you.

[B]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[A]

This was a classic Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Estherre might just call you. Send your questions to producerstairperrell.com where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jackson all.

[D]

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[C]

Com.