Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two

Summary

Summary of "Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel"
Episode: Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two
Release Date: January 20, 2025

In this emotionally charged episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel delves deeper into the complexities of sexual compatibility within a relationship strained by past trauma. This episode, titled "Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two," features a poignant conversation between Esther, a boyfriend, and his girlfriend, who is grappling with the aftermath of sexual assault and its impact on their intimate life.

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1. Setting the Stage: Understanding the Core Issue

The episode opens with Esther Perel providing context for the session. She explains that the conversation stems from a previous session with a young Black American woman who questioned whether sexual incompatibility was at the root of her relationship challenges. However, as their discussion unfolded, it became evident that the real issue was her traumatic experience of rape and the subsequent emotional barriers she erected to regain control over her sexual intimacy.

Esther Perel (00:01):

"This is not really about incompatibility. This was about her experience of rape and how she had found a way to re-engage sexually with her partner by creating a script in which she was in charge of everything..."

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2. The Boyfriend’s Perspective: Navigating Confusion and Frustration

Esther introduces the boyfriend into the conversation to gain insight into his experiences and feelings regarding the ongoing sexual disconnect. The boyfriend articulates his confusion and frustration over the perceived lack of sexual reciprocity in the relationship.

Boyfriend (03:32):

"When we first met, we were more on the same page, but somewhere along the way, I'm not exactly sure, like, what changed."

He describes moments of intimacy as successful yet often marred by his girlfriend's apparent lack of presence and responsiveness during sex.

Boyfriend (04:26):

"When we do have sex, it's good, but I think a lot of the time, she doesn't want to be as present... it can make things a bit confusing at times."

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3. The Girlfriend’s Struggle: Trauma and Control

The girlfriend shares her internal battle between desiring intimacy and the fear of losing control, a direct consequence of her traumatic past. Her strategy of taking charge in sexual encounters aims to prevent feelings of helplessness but inadvertently creates distance between her and her partner.

Girlfriend (25:24):

"I need the space to be able to share my desire and that maybe like changing the way that we initiate driving the driver really stuck out to me."

She discusses the anxiety of trying new approaches, fearing failure despite her genuine desire for the relationship to succeed.

Girlfriend (26:04):

"I just am scared to try it. I want it to work, and I want it to be something that's successful for us, so I'm scared that it's gonna fail."

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4. Esther Perel’s Guidance: Rebuilding Trust and Communication

Esther provides insightful strategies to bridge the sexual intimacy gap. She emphasizes the importance of redefining foreplay and shifting the focus from genital stimulation to building a deeper emotional connection.

Esther Perel (10:02):

"Foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm and not a few minutes before the real thing."

She encourages both partners to engage in sensual activities without the expectation of sex, fostering a safe space for emotional and physical connection.

Esther Perel (16:03):

"Slow it down, too. It's about challenging the frames of mind..."

Esther also introduces the concept of "driving the driver," where the girlfriend takes the lead in initiating intimacy, allowing her to feel empowered and in control.

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5. Practical Exercises: Sensate Touch and Erotic Communication

The episode highlights practical exercises adopted by the couple, such as sensate touching, which involves non-sexual physical engagement to rebuild comfort and trust. Although initially effective, they face challenges in maintaining this practice consistently.

Girlfriend (32:32):

"We had tried sensate touching, where we would touch each other. And sex was completely off the table during that time."

Esther advises maintaining open lines of communication through methods like maintaining an erotic journal, allowing both partners to express their desires and fantasies without pressure.

Esther Perel (50:33):

"Have a little notebook. Our erotic meanderings. Our erotic life or something. Name it... writing it to each other."

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6. Reaffirming Love and Desire: Building Emotional Intimacy

A critical turning point in the conversation occurs when the girlfriend expresses her genuine desire and attraction toward her boyfriend, countering his fears of incompatibility.

Girlfriend (44:24):

"I definitely desire you. There's desire there. I want you. I want this with us."

Boyfriend (45:06):

"I love you too, babe."

Esther reinforces the significance of verbal affirmations in maintaining emotional and sexual connections, urging the girlfriend to communicate her feelings more openly and reassuring the boyfriend of her attraction.

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7. Conclusion: Moving Forward with Patience and Understanding

As the session wraps up, Esther emphasizes the necessity of patience and continuous effort in rebuilding intimate bonds. She encourages the couple to adopt small, manageable steps to enhance their sexual communication and emotional intimacy.

Esther Perel (51:16):

"It does. It does. And that's why this is less about sex and more about sexual trauma and healing, so that sex can re-emerge freely and joyfully. It's not you."

The episode concludes with hopeful strategies for the couple to rekindle their intimacy, underscoring the non-linear nature of healing and the importance of mutual support and understanding.

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Key Takeaways:

• Trauma’s Impact: Past traumatic experiences significantly influence current sexual dynamics and require compassionate, patient approaches to healing.

• Redefining Foreplay: Shifting the focus from immediate sexual acts to prolonged, meaningful interactions fosters a safer and more connected environment for intimacy.

• Open Communication: Honest and frequent dialogues about desires, fears, and boundaries are essential in rebuilding trust and sexual compatibility.

• Practical Exercises: Implementing exercises like sensate touching and maintaining an erotic journal can help couples navigate and strengthen their intimate connections.

• Patience and Persistence: Healing and rebuilding intimacy is a gradual process that necessitates ongoing effort, empathy, and adaptability from both partners.

This episode offers profound insights into the intricate dance of healing from sexual trauma while striving to maintain a loving and intimate relationship. Esther Perel adeptly guides the couple through their struggles, providing actionable advice to navigate their path toward renewed sexual compatibility and emotional intimacy.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

In this following session, we discuss sexual assault. And I want you to know this before you listen. Last week I had a session with a young black American woman who had sent in a question. Do I think there is such a thing as sexual incompatibility? But as we started talking, it became very quickly clear that this was not really about incompatibility. This was about her experience of rape and how she had found a way to re engage sexually with her partner by creating a script in which she was in charge of everything so that she would never again feel the passivity, the helplessness and the powerlessness that had marked that experience of rape that she went through. And what you're going to hear now is my conversation with her current partner, who I invited to meet with me because I really needed to hear his side of the story. How was all of this landing on him? How much was he personalizing this? Because he kept being rejected. So how could he not think this has to do with him or this has to do with her. Her rather than this has to do with what was done to her? And so this is my conversation with him. And it starts on the heels of my discussing with her what has been the effect of this traumatic event on her current sexual intimacy with her boyfriend.

[Girlfriend]

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[Nadia Yada Island]

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[Esther Perel]

You know, I ended the conversation with your girlfriend and I just thought I would love to hear how he sees it. And I don't know if you've had a conversation since she and I spoke. So tell me where I meet you. Do you even know what we're supposed to talk about or how this came to be So I can fill in the gaps.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah. I mean, we spoke about the conversation that you guys had. It was about how we're not always on the same time schedule when it comes to intimacy. I don't know. It's just been something that I think has been more of a challenge navigating than other relationships that were more casual. I suppose it felt like originally, you know, when. When we first met, that we were more on the same page, but I don't know. Somewhere along the way, I'm not exactly sure, like, what changed. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

How would you describe your experience from where you are? When I say, tell me, what stands out for you and your sexual relationship with your girlfriend? What would you say?

[Boyfriend]

When we do have sex, it's good, but I think a lot of the time, she doesn't want to be as present. I don't really know why that is. I think. I think a lot of the time it's, you know, she doesn't always, like, want to engage, which is okay. I guess my point is that sex once a week or something like that, you know, is normal, you know, or what. What I would see, you know, as normal.

[Esther Perel]

And what are some of the questions that you carry inside of you that either you haven't asked her or haven't found the answers satisfying?

[Boyfriend]

Well, I. I'm pretty open about asking questions, so I don't really think there's anything that I've been wanting to ask that I haven't asked.

[Esther Perel]

Mm. And any questions you've asked where the answer didn't really meet you.

[Boyfriend]

Um, I just think that when I asked, like, what could be done differently, you know, she'll say, like, I need to prolong my. I guess, like, advances, you know, just based on how our daily schedules are and the time that we have, you know, realistically in a day, I just don't really know how. What I could do differently. And that's never really been made, you know, very clear to me. We just kind of, like, dance around it.

[Esther Perel]

What is foreplay? Like.

[Boyfriend]

Usually I'll be the one to initiate. I'll rub, you know, the outer part of her thigh or, you know, her stomach or something, like, intimate places like that. And there's been a lot of times where she's had to tell me, like, oh, this or that spot triggers me in that way. It's been a learning process, but. But it's always, you know, me initiating and feeling my way through. If we do engage intimately, you know, it'll be a while of me kind of, like, rubbing here and There and we might kiss some. There's a lot of the times where I'll. I'll start the foreplay and then, you know, I'll get like, stopped. And we've talked about it and she says, like, you know, it's just something that she's not fully, like, you know, conscious of when it's happening, like a knee jerk reaction. So that part of it kind of makes it difficult because I'm like, I'm having to interpret signals that are coming across negatively and remember not to read into it or something of that nature. And so it can make things a bit confusing at times.

[Esther Perel]

When you say triggering, you mean what?

[Boyfriend]

You know, just make something that makes her feel uncomfortable.

[Esther Perel]

But from uncomfortable that makes her either want to stop or that makes her continue but not really be present.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, like she might like, knock my hand away or something. And if I do continue, then she might let me continue but not really be present. So it can make things kind of confusing and. And it can make me get easily frustrated, you know.

[Esther Perel]

And then what do you do?

[Boyfriend]

I mean, I try to be okay, but I mean, everything has its limits, you know? And eventually I do hit a wall where I'm like, okay, like I'm starting to get annoyed. And we talk about it and you say you've been working on it, but nothing's happening, you know, So I start to want to shut down because I'm like, I don't really know what's happening here.

[Esther Perel]

Right. That's part of why I wanted to invite you to be in the conversation. Because I had a sense that if it keeps repeating itself like this, then it starts to feel that we are incompatible because we're stuck. We keep circling back and gnawing at the same bone. And one piece is what actually is happening and how do we understand what goes on? And the second one is, how do we circle around it so that we don't come back to it, but we expand and we open up a different sexual expression between us that doesn't trigger her. And when you say trigger, do you know what it goes back to you, Doctor, is it different when she initiates?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, but it's so rare that I can't, like, I can't even tell you the last time that she initiated, you know?

[Esther Perel]

You know, sometimes I like to say that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm and not a few minutes before the real thing, the supposed real thing. That's number one. So the first thing is, how do you start? Long before you start, you know, it's like if you're going to cook a beautiful meal, you start by deciding what you want to cook. Then it's about where you're going to get the ingredients, what you're going to get. Then it's about preparing all the ingredients, then it's about all the cooking, and then it's about setting the table, and then it's about eating. Do you know how many steps before people swallow their first bite? Sex has something similar to it, Especially when you are with someone who is struggling to find her own desire and who at this moment needs to experience that sense of freedom in order to be comfortable in sex. So that it doesn't feel, I'm doing what you want, I'm responding to what you want from me. I'm so much dealing with what you want from me that I cannot ask myself, what do I want for myself? So it almost would say, you start with sweet messages. Whatever the things that you do during the day that make the other person know that they're on your mind, that you're thinking of them, it's a way of cultivating the desire and the connection outside of when it's meant to happen. And you may do all of that already, but I want to repeat it because it's more important than we often think. And then when you want to turn someone on, you actually don't need to go to their genitals, actually, but you go where there is absolutely no demand for a response. Because the response will come when there is no demand, but the response will freeze when there is a sense that there is an expectation and nothing has anything to do with you and you have done nothing wrong. And this is not about you. This is about sexual healing that needs to take place for her. You understand? It's like with someone else, you may have none of this and you're not doing anything wrong. Just want to make that really, really clear.

[Boyfriend]

Well, yeah, yeah. That's what I meant when I said, like, past relationships that were more casual, you know, there wasn't all this, so I'm not used to that.

[Esther Perel]

That's right. So this one isn't casual. And that's part of why this is all, you know, this one is deep and meaningful and important for both of you. And that's why you want to make sure that we take the correct exit from the beginning and not that that you get lost, the two of you, in bad weeds.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, I agree.

[Esther Perel]

Part of the go slower. You know, I once did a session with 200 men and they one of guy asked Me, what does woman want? What should we know here? And my first answer from having spoken so much with women was, slow down. Don't just approach when it's sex, when it's meant to go for penetration and intercourse, just play. Play without demand. Kiss, stroke, lick, shower, whatever you do, you know that you enjoy, but without a demand.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah. And I think, you know, that kind of goes back to where, like, a lot of the time when I do those things and there isn't a demand, she still feels like there is.

[Esther Perel]

You have to tell her, today we play and there is no demand. At best, you jerk off yourself or she'll play with you. But really state it. I just want to touch you. I want to kiss you. I want to hold you. I want to lick you. But no vulva, just your neck, your ears, your hand. Stay away from the genitals and make it clear we're having a different kind of sex today. We're going to have an erotic experience. It doesn't have to be the act of sex. And even if she wants to, you say no, you can't.

[Boyfriend]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Afterwards, if she really wants to, then do whatever you want, but just. It's about trust. It's about making it last that long till she trusts you that you really won't make her do anything she doesn't want to do, which she knows isn't what you mean. She trusts you. She loves you. She knows you're a good guy. But this is what trigger means.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And it's an honor to be the person who's gonna be there to heal with her.

[Boyfriend]

A challenge, that's for sure.

[Esther Perel]

Challenging honor.

[Boyfriend]

Challenging honor. Yeah. You took the words out of my mouth. You said what I thought.

[Esther Perel]

And the reason I asked you. Is it different when she initiates? Is because sometimes the experience for some women is that in the initiating, I know I'm doing what I want.

[Boyfriend]

Well, yeah. When she initiates, then it's basically straight to sex.

[Esther Perel]

Slow it down, too, if you can. Slow it down, too. Because it's about challenging the frames of mind. I know you get hard, you get turned down, you get aroused, you get excited, you want to. You know that's there. But I think it needs new input. It's not what a guy expects from me. It's not what every guy wants. It's not what every woman needs to do. It's not the way I can keep him. It's not the way I will prevent him from leaving. It's all of those thoughts roaming and capturing a person's freedom. And Imagination.

[Boyfriend]

We've been trying to redefine the lines of communication around intimacy. Well, last night, I mean, I told her, you know, like, I'm not gonna ask if you want to have sex anymore. If you want to have sex, you just, you know, it's up to you. So we're trying that for a while and we'll see.

[Esther Perel]

But when you say we're not gonna have sex, where does sex start for you?

[Boyfriend]

Well, not that we're not gonna have sex, that I'm not gonna bring it up.

[Esther Perel]

Right. And sex starts where? Meaning I'm not gonna pressure you, I'm not gonna push you. I'm not gonna be the one to constantly think about it, ask for it. And what is the it? Where does it start?

[Boyfriend]

Well, I guess with foreplay.

[Esther Perel]

Keep going. Do you just ask to be held? Do you ask to be kissed? Do you ask to have her hand in your hair? I mean, are there things that are not sex demand, but they are physical, they are even sensual, they are even erotic, energetic. But they don't necessarily say we're going to do sex. Where does that feature?

[Boyfriend]

I think that I definitely do those things. You know, like, I'll massage her or something like that. Maybe I'll, like, rub her feet or something. But. But usually, like, if I do those things, I don't transition into sex from there. Sometimes. Sometimes I will, but. But I find that I get a similar reaction either way.

[Esther Perel]

And if you ask for something, can you ask that is not what you call sex, can you ask for physical expressions?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, I mean, usually there isn't an issue with that. I think it just depends on, like, where I'm touching, you know, can you.

[Esther Perel]

Imagine that she has a whole body and you don't have to go for the genitals or the boobs unless she takes your hand and brings it there. But the body is the biggest sexual organ. The skin followed by the mind.

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, Well, I will try not going. Not touching the very erotic areas at all. Unless she, you know, takes it there and we'll see.

[Esther Perel]

Or take her hand and just tell her, you take my hand where you want it to go and say it. What I called it with her is I said, you be the driver of the driver because you're working hard at trying to guess what does she like, what does she want, what is okay, what is not okay. And it's tough, right?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, it's exhausting.

[Esther Perel]

And it makes you doubt yourself. And you feel like you're losing your confidence and the natural feeling of it all. And so Just say, here's my hand. You take it anywhere you want it to be. Could be on her face, could be on her neck, on her shoulder. It will feel nice because you will feel like she's in it with you. It won't be about what it is that you're doing. It's the fact that it's being done together rather than you're hoping that you're not having a mishap, that you're not walking a thin line of where is it wrong and where's the mistake? And where is she gonna shut down? So the pleasure will come from staying connected at first, not from the big production. Shall we check that with her, see if that's something?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Boyfriend]

And I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get it.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. My dad works in B2B marketing.

[Boyfriend]

He came by my school for career Day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

[Esther Perel]

My friends still laugh at me to this day.

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[Esther Perel]

Elon Musk and only to Elon Musk, what does that say about the leverage.

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[Esther Perel]

We just started a new year and that often comes along with starting new things, including listening to new podcasts. So if you're new here or you haven't been with me for a while, welcome back to my office. I'm excited to be featured in Apple Podcasts New Beginnings campaign and for the whole month of January, I'm offering you 20% off the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad free version of each session and you will have access to my new Apple channel. So let me tell you about that because here we are eight years later with a huge robust archive of episodes. So one channel is the classics, one channel are the clinical conversations, one is for the special guests that I have hosted, and one is for all of us who were curious about the long term update about the couples that we have seen. What happened to them two, three years later, what happened to these people? So I've organized it thematically. I've organized it so it's less unwieldy, so that when you have a concern, you can go straight to what interests you. So things are going to look better and a little different. So join me on my office hours on Apple podcast subscription for 20% off by clicking the subscribe button on the where should we begin? Show page. See you there and thank you. Hi.

[Girlfriend]

Hi.

[Esther Perel]

How have you been since we spoke?

[Girlfriend]

Good.

[Esther Perel]

I was asking him what you had brought from our conversation so that I could bridge and what stood out for you kind of what stayed?

[Girlfriend]

I think the biggest thing that really stuck with me was like that it's not so much that we're like incompatible more than I need the space to be able to, I don't know, like share my desire and that maybe like changing the way that we initiate Driving the driver really stuck out to me. Like that's the one thing that really has stuck in my head. Like driving the driver.

[Esther Perel]

Did you try it no. Ah. How come?

[Girlfriend]

I think I just am scared to. To try it. I want it to work, and I want it to be something that's, like, successful for us, so I'm scared that it's gonna fail.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me something. Do you drive a bicycle?

[Girlfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think that when you learned to bicycle, you never fell off?

[Girlfriend]

No, I definitely did.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Girlfriend]

I definitely fell.

[Esther Perel]

And did you become a good bicycle driver?

[Girlfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

All right. So success is not something that happens in the first try. You fell, you got your bearings, you learned to do slower, faster, to stay upright. And you don't think about any of this over the many, many years that you've been riding a bike. But it's going to be the same. To find a groove sexually is not something that you do once and it works or it doesn't work. That's not the way it works sexually. It's a different story. But it demands a lot of good communication between the two of you more than anything else. And that's part of why I thought, I'd love to meet him and have him in the conversation, because I could see how it becomes a story of we are incompatible when that's not what this is about. And it's not about, I like droplets and he pours a bucket. It's about really communicating with him what feels good and taking the initiative of telling him you're not going to offend each other. You're actually going to feel that you're bold and brazen and you're investing into this dialogue that's called the sexual communication. And you may not know instantly what's the way to drive the driver. And you may think it's this, but then afterwards you realize it's that. But one thing you know is that driving the driver is a way of feeling that you are not pushed, coerced, and controlled, but that you experience your own taking charge, your own freedom, your own desire, your own autonomy, and that that's something that he can join you in. That's not something that you're doing against him. Because there's nothing more exciting than to see someone who's into it.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Is that a fair statement?

[Boyfriend]

Yes.

[Girlfriend]

I don't really know, like, where to go from here.

[Esther Perel]

From here. All right, so one thing I said, whereas foreplay is not the thing you do just five minutes before the real deal, to me, foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm. It's the way that you cultivate an erotic energy that lingers so that you don't have to get someone into it. You don't have to get them in the mood. You don't have to turn them on. There's an energy that is present. And the most important thing to start for both of you is to not have pressure. For you not to feel like there's an expectation that you're either going to meet and dissociate or not meet. And then he's going to be frustrated and rejected. So that's the dance you're trying to step out of. So no stimulation through genital touching or thigh or boobs or breasts. Because that's all very explicit. It says, I want sex. We're going to have sex. And there's nothing wrong with this. It's just that when you are in the presence of even the most loving man and he tells you, I want sex, that doesn't invite you in a good space.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it's. I love being next to you. I'm with you. This feels nice. I want to touch you. I want to kiss you. I want to hold you many, many times. It will stop right there. And that's when you will learn to trust that you don't have to subject yourself. And that's when you have a much better chance of coming to him because he's not after you, you know. Otherwise, it becomes the. I'm counting days while you're counting days and I'm looking at you looking at me to tell you that I know what you're thinking even though you're not saying it. And it becomes this whole thing.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know what I'm saying? I'm asking him, too.

[Boyfriend]

No, I do. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. Does she know that I'm thinking that? I know that. She's not thinking that. You know he wants it. That's on his mind. It's not on her mind. When will it ever be on her mind? It's never on her mind. I'm tired of this. I've never been like this. This is not the way I've known my relationships to be. Oh, I better do something, because he's getting upset. And it becomes this whole surveillance system. That's not intimacy in which each of you is looking at what is the threshold of the other. So you start by asking him things that feel good. That's it. If he touches you and it doesn't feel right, take his hand and put it where you like it. Even if it doesn't move. If you just put it here and that's where you want it to be, it'll stay there for a while. If you want to move it from your chest and bring it to your neck. It'll stay there for a while because he will appreciate you're there with him. It'll slow it down. You may have less intercourse for a while, but you'll shift this. You want to be able to keep your eyes open and just be in front of him and synchronize your breathing together a little bit and know that there is no demand, no coercion, no control.

[Girlfriend]

We. So a couple weeks ago, we had tried, like, sensate touching, where we would touch each other. And sex was, like, completely off the table for the time that we were doing the exercises. During that time, like, it was working for me. Like, I felt myself opening up more and, like, being able to let go. But it didn't last very long. Meaning we just kept getting kind of like stuck in this, the same cycle. Like, it's not. It's taking a little bit too long for you to initiate sex. So I'm gonna initiate and I'm not really responding to that. And just like the same.

[Esther Perel]

Right. This is a question to you, sir, because it's going to be a bit frustrating, but you're going to get your girlfriend to be present with you, and then it will be an offer that you can't refuse.

[Boyfriend]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

That's what. That's the challenge, right?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah. I mean, I'm trying to be more patient now.

[Esther Perel]

And when she's present, if you can tell her what it feels like for you to have her there with you, even if it's just sitting next to each other or naked, face to face and do nothing. You know, sex isn't just intercourse. It's a broad landscape. And people can do sex and feel nothing. And people can do very little and feel highly erotic. And you'll encourage him to jerk off if he wants that. If he needs the release, if he enjoys the release. You'll do it sometimes, if you feel like it. Because it's nice, fun thing to receive without feeling. I'm obliged. But you want to be more demanding rather than just avoiding. Demanding in the good sense of the word.

[Girlfriend]

I guess that's something I have to practice because I am not used to it.

[Esther Perel]

You can write him a note. You can put it on the fridge tonight for tomorrow. Little request. You can play with this. Don't make this very serious. Anything on the menu? Anything I can serve you? Would you like any special room service? I mean, play with this. Open yourself to the discoveries that will come along. There's a whole world to talk about and it has less to do with what you do and more with what you're dreaming of, what you're imagining, what you're thinking about.

[Girlfriend]

When we were doing the exercises, I found myself, like, fantasizing about it and about him.

[Boyfriend]

Do you know that that's a conversation we had just last night? I asked the question, do you ever get turned on when we're together? You know, and she says, yes. And I said, well, when's the last time? And she says, a couple weeks ago. And I said, well, I didn't know anything about this. Why didn't you act on it? You know, communicate it? And she said, I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

So start asking her. Tell me what you think. Tell me what it feels like. Track it in a nice, gentle way. Ask each other. You know, some people find doing sex much easier than talking about it. And most people have a much easier time talking about sex with everybody but the person that they're having sex with. When you say, you didn't tell me, ask her, what was it? Do you know?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And what was it like for you to hear it?

[Boyfriend]

I mean, I don't know. I guess my immediate thought was just, you know, like, I wish I wouldn't have. I wish I knew.

[Esther Perel]

So that's not the end of the story. From there, I think the sense of focus is great because it gives you a zone where you know it's not gonna go. So you get to explore in everything else. And turned on. What she described was, my mind was turned on, My imaginative space got lit up. It doesn't mean just I got lubricated, I got wet, I got all excited physically. For her, it will start up in the head and then it will travel down. If these lips open, so will the ones between her legs. So the kissing will be a lot more of a turn on than any of the targeted touching. Does that feel to you part of the honor or part of the challenge?

[Boyfriend]

The foreplay, you mean?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, everything I just described now?

[Boyfriend]

No, I mean, I enjoy foreplay. I just, you know, am used to this feeling of anytime I try to initiate foreplay, it's just she automatically feels pressure. So it's, you know, I do it anyway. But I always feel like, you know, she's not going to be into it because she automatically is going to just go to that place.

[Esther Perel]

You're going to tell her up front, right? You will tell her up front. This is for us to play. No pressure, no demand after that. Trust me. And even if you want to, I won't Let you. Because if you don't let her, she will want more. When I describe it, do you feel the playfulness in it or does it. Or do you get more in touch with your frustration?

[Boyfriend]

No, I mean, I definitely understand where you're coming from and I'm definitely open to more foreplay. And it's to be determined, you know, what the results will be and how long it'll take for these things to work. Because so far it's been a challenge. But yeah, I mean, I want for that to work, you know, for it to be easy.

[Esther Perel]

When you say it work, you mean what, what is work in sex for you?

[Boyfriend]

Well, what I mean is, you know, I want for us to just be able to just coexist intimately and. And we touch and kiss and maybe one thing leads to another sometimes. You know what I mean? And to me that's normal, but I just feel like as of late that hasn't been happening. There hasn't really been any leeway for that. So, I mean, we'll see. You know, I'm gonna do what you said with communicating. This isn't about sex. And we'll see. I mean, it's. It's every day is. It's one day at a time, you know.

[Esther Perel]

See, the thing is, it actually is sex. But sex isn't just something you do. In my mind, sex is a place where you go inside yourself and with another. Our deepest emotional needs are expressed in the physicality of sex. And that's the conversation. It's like, where do you go? What does it mean for you? Where does it take you? What part of you gets expressed there? And that's a different way of talking about sex and about turn ons and about arousal. And it will open a whole new door for both of you. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. People can do the act sex and nothing happens to them. And what you want is something to happen to both of you. And between the two of you, don't wait because you're looking for the right moment when I'm comfortable. When he's okay with. The more he will know that you are engaged in this with him, the better it will be for him. Otherwise, it feels lonely. I'm the only one who cares. You could have a little notebook in which you write your thoughts, your thoughts, your experiences. And the notebook stays on the kitchen table and you get to read it. It's about a different way of sharing with each other. And I was thinking about that and I have this fantasy in mind and etc. Etc.

[Girlfriend]

I mean, for me, like, that's sort. That's like, what I want our sex to be like, is like, not the physical act of. Or like, the final goal is, like, to have penetrative sex. Like, I want it to be an experience, like, for me to be able to fantasize about it and then feel, like, carry that energy through.

[Esther Perel]

But you have never told any of that to him. He knows very little about your erotic self and probably vice versa. You know, it's one thing to talk about what we do in sex. It's another thing to talk about what we're thinking about while we're doing it. What was it like when you told him what you were thinking and fantasizing about? Just the actual sharing of that for you? What was that?

[Girlfriend]

Like, really vulnerable. But it was like, in the context of a heavier conversation. So it wasn't like, this is what I'm thinking about and like, stoking it for myself is more like I'm explaining or, like, defending myself more than.

[Esther Perel]

And now.

[Boyfriend]

And I. When I asked the question, I didn't mean for it to be something where you had to go on the defensive. I. I honestly wanted to know. I mean, you know, are you ever turned on when we're together? You know what I mean? It's not. It wasn't like an argumentative stance that I was trying to take.

[Esther Perel]

Were you surprised with the answer?

[Boyfriend]

I mean, I don't know. To be honest. The mental aspect of me knows there's some level of attraction because we've had sex many times and we've been in a relationship for almost four years. But when it feels like you're constantly being held at arm's length, it can make you feel like, well, maybe, you know, we need to just face. Face the fact that you. You're not attracted to me. And maybe that's just something that we, neither of us wants to face.

[Esther Perel]

I think he needs to hear something from you so that he doesn't go off in that kind of thinking.

[Girlfriend]

That's definitely something that I've been thinking about. And I'm so, like, I think about.

[Esther Perel]

Everything, but I'm saying right now, don't go off in your thinking.

[Girlfriend]

I mean, like, I. I definitely desire you. There's desire there. And it mostly, like, when you're doing your own thing and you're very serious or like, playing video games and like, you're in your own world, like, that really gets to me. And, like, I love you and I. I want. I want you. And I want this with us. Like, I want that.

[Boyfriend]

Well, I love you too, babe.

[Girlfriend]

Like, I find you very attractive. I think you're a very handsome man. And I like looking at you. I like looking at your face. I like looking at your body. Like.

[Esther Perel]

Do you tell him that often or not enough.

[Girlfriend]

Not enough. I don't think it's very rare.

[Esther Perel]

You've got. You have homework. Did it land on you?

[Boyfriend]

It did, yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, I know these things, but I love you, but sometimes, yeah, it can. You can forget.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And this, it's part of sexual communication. If you need to hear it, you say, tell it to me again. I love hearing it. Shower me with that. If he needs reassurance or if he needs affirmation, you tell him again. People at 80 still want to hear that. This is not something you said on the first week and then you're done. This is juice, nectar. And especially if there is the challenge that you have currently, you need it even more. Part of why people begin to have sexual challenges, one of the many reasons, is that all of this stuff disappears and they just think that they can roll over and start fucking. So all of those exchanges, all of those poetic liberties make a huge difference. It feels good to say it. It feels good to hear it.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah, I can definitely do that more.

[Esther Perel]

Does he do it to you?

[Girlfriend]

Yeah, all the time.

[Esther Perel]

And are you able to receive it without pressure, as pleasure Sometimes?

[Girlfriend]

I don't always receive it. Like, just a statement and more of, like, pressure.

[Boyfriend]

I. I just feel like, to a degree, everything I do is like, we were talking about it and I don't know, part of me has thought that, like, the best thing for me to do is nothing, but then that doesn't accomplish anything. Nothing never accomplishes anything.

[Esther Perel]

So listen, I don't. It's not you.

[Boyfriend]

That puts me in a box.

[Esther Perel]

It does. It does. And that's why this is less about sex and more about sexual trauma and healing, so that sex can re emerge freely and joyfully. It's not you. And you need to tell him that.

[Girlfriend]

Perhaps.

[Esther Perel]

No. But not once. Not once. You know, he loves you, he wants you. It's everything you would hope for. This is not about doing wrong things or everything I do goes off track. And when he says something beautiful and it pressures you, just tell him, tell me again. And then try to breathe through it and to make the space so it can actually enter and you can hold it or take his hands, put them on your heart and Just tell him to say it again and it's all he needs to do. I want to hear it again. It didn't really register well. And give yourself the gift.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah, I guess I've just been so, like. I don't know how to receive pleasure. My comfort zone is like me initiating it. And that's where I. I can let go and allow myself to feel good. Because I feel good and I feel powerful. And receiving is hard.

[Esther Perel]

Mm. Which is why I want you to think small. Even if it's just his hand in your hair. What would be if he was sitting next to you now and you took his hand, where would you put it?

[Girlfriend]

Either in my hand too, or on my thigh.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Start with that. And then if you want to move it, move it. And then tell him how it feels like so he knows. This doesn't mean you're going to do this for seven years, you know?

[Girlfriend]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Just also trying to reassure you. But take his hand and place it somewhere where you want him to give and you can receive. Is this a good place to stop? It's just an arbitrary spot, but. Me too.

[Boyfriend]

Gotta wrap up somewhere, huh?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. But does it give you a place to start?

[Boyfriend]

I would say yes. I think so.

[Esther Perel]

So have a little notebook. Our erotic meanderings. Our erotic life or something. Name it. Give it the name you want. Doesn't have to be a serious name. And writing it to each other. Sometimes it's easier to write than to speak. Then you can discuss it later if you want. But just to have a place where you. I thought of. I saw this. I imagined that. I would love that. On and on like this.

[Girlfriend]

Yeah, I would love that.

[Esther Perel]

And you?

[Boyfriend]

Yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm open to it.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. I'll be in touch.

[Nadia Yada Island]

This was an estair calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message. And Esther might just call you. Send your question to producertersteraparel.com where should we begin with Esther Perhaps is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian at original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.