Esther Calling - Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Esther Calling - Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You?"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host/Author: Esther Perel Global Media
Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Esther Calling - Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You?", renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel engages in a profound and intimate conversation with a client, referred to as the Curious Individual. This session delves deep into issues of self-worth, fear of being needed versus being valued for one’s intrinsic self, and the challenges of maintaining authentic connections in relationships. The discussion uncovers the layers of the client's past experiences and how they shape current relational dynamics.

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Background of the Client

The Curious Individual presents as a clergy person with a complex marital history. She has been married twice—first to a woman for over a decade, with whom she co-parents their teenage daughter and resides next door, and second to a man, a marriage that lasted four years before ending in divorce. Following her second divorce, she intellectually distanced herself from the desire for long-term partnerships by viewing marriage and monogamy as social constructs primarily benefiting societal structures like generational wealth accumulation.

However, two years prior to the session, a transformative experience of dancing alone led her to meet someone with whom she has since developed a deep, multifaceted relationship. Despite both individuals advocating for non-monogamy, their relationship has remained effectively monogamous, especially over the past nine months. They maintain privacy due to the high expectations placed upon her as a female clergy person in the Southern United States.

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Exploration of Fears and Self-Worth

The core of the session revolves around the client's fear of not being "enough" and the tension between being perceived as "too much" versus "not enough." This dichotomy stems from her upbringing and professional role, where she has been conditioned to be the giver, the helper, and the one others rely upon.

Notable Quote:

"I'm not enough for others. I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth between being too much and not being enough." [07:21]

Esther Perel guides the client to uncover the underlying fears that perpetuate these feelings. The client reveals a deep-seated fear of being perceived solely based on what she can provide or do for others, rather than for who she inherently is. This fear is intertwined with her professional identity as a clergy person, where she is often the pillar of support for others in their most vulnerable moments.

Notable Quote:

"When I meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference between the way these parts live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about?" [09:28]

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Impact of Childhood Experiences

The client shares poignant insights into her childhood, marked by instability and the absence of a consistent paternal presence. Her father's frequent absences due to his business commitments left her feeling responsible for maintaining emotional stability at home from a very young age. Additionally, early experiences with being overly controlled, such as being placed on a strict diet and publicly weighed, contributed to her complicated relationship with her needs and desires.

Notable Quote:

"So as a child, I lived in a home where from the outside it looked very stable. And on some level it definitely was. And on the deeper level, I have a sibling who has severe mental illness and was acting out a lot and then another sibling that was gone." [17:58]

These experiences fostered an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and the internalization of the belief that her needs were secondary to those of others, further exacerbating her struggles with self-worth in adult relationships.

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Strategies for Healing and Growth

Esther Perel employs therapeutic exercises to help the client reconnect with her authentic needs and desires. One significant exercise involves the client identifying and articulating her needs in a clear and unambiguous manner. This practice aims to break the cycle of convoluted communication that often leaves her needs unmet and reinforces her fears of being perceived as too much.

Notable Quote:

"So now let's do a little exercise. Give me 10 things you need." [31:00]

Through this exercise, the client begins to acknowledge and accept her need to be seen and cared for, moving towards allowing herself to receive support rather than solely providing it.

Notable Quote:

"I need to allow myself to be cared for." [37:45]

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Insights and Revelations

The session reveals that the client’s fear of being alone and her dependency on being needed for her sense of security have hindered her ability to form mutual and reciprocal relationships. She recognizes that her ingrained protective mechanisms have led to emotional isolation, where she doubts the authenticity of others' affections towards her.

Notable Quote:

"Have I abandoned on some level my wants and desires out of fear." [02:23]

By addressing these fears and reconfiguring her approach to relationships, the client begins to explore the possibility of being loved for her true self rather than for her roles or the support she provides to others.

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Conclusion and Takeaways

In "Do You Love Me for Me or For What I Do for You?", Esther Perel effectively facilitates a transformative dialogue that empowers the client to confront and dismantle the fears rooted in her past. The session underscores the importance of self-awareness in cultivating healthy, authentic relationships where love is based on mutual recognition and intrinsic worth rather than transactional or role-based interactions.

Final Insight:

"The fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences. But the self-protective part that keeps the connection from deepening by allowing people to care for me is one that I learned to do." [41:20]

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of self-worth, vulnerability, and the quest for genuine connection, offering listeners valuable insights into overcoming internal barriers to love and intimacy.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "I'm not enough for others. I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth between being too much and not being enough." [07:21]

• "When I meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference between the way these parts live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about?" [09:28]

• "So as a child, I lived in a home where from the outside it looked very stable. And on some level it definitely was." [17:58]

• "So now let's do a little exercise. Give me 10 things you need." [31:00]

• "I need to allow myself to be cared for." [37:45]

• "Have I abandoned on some level my wants and desires out of fear." [02:23]

• "The fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences." [41:20]

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This in-depth summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and transformative moments between Esther Perel and her client. It provides a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the episode, encapsulating the emotional and psychological journey undertaken during the session.

Transcript

[Clergy Person]

I've been married twice, once to a woman for over a decade and we co parent our now teenage daughter and we live next door to each other. My second marriage was to a man, but that marriage also ended in divorce just after four years. After my second marriage ended I made sense out of what first felt like a failure, I think by intellectualizing marriage and monogamy as some kind of simply unnatural state and marriage as a social construct that benefits society by increasing generational wealth. Yeah, I know. I began to rationalize my way out of any desire for a long term partnership. But then one night I went out dancing all alone and quite happily so and I met another person there also alone, quite happily so and we danced and talked all evening. That was two years ago and we have been friends, friends, lovers, companions in so many amazing ways since. For the first year of our friendship we dated other people. Now for the last nine months or so I have not dated anyone else but him.

[Curious Individual]

So here we are, two people committed.

[Clergy Person]

To non monogamy and yet, at least for now, monogamous. We both intellectualize a lot and are rather public people in our communities. I'm a clergy person in a Christian church, so you can imagine that the expectations of me and my relationship status, especially as a female clergy person in the Southern US are quite big. And so we keep our relationship really private. It feels safe there. And yet part of me is wondering what I'm so fearful of. Am I missing out on some benefit of monogamy or at least a relationship that's not so separate from the rest of my life? And I'm deeply curious if I've abandoned on some level my wants and desires out of fear.

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[Esther Perel]

Hello Hi. Are these all questions or are some of these statements with a question mark?

[Curious Individual]

Yes, I would say that my curiosity, when it's free and open, is like, I wonder what will happen next. And then when I am afraid or I'm feeling like there's some sort of scarcity or urgency, I become judgmental. And my question is more like, I wonder what will happen next. And so sometimes those statements are statements, and sometimes they're questions.

[Esther Perel]

Right. So I was wondering, why now? Why did you reach out to me now? Because the questions are not new or the statements. And what led you to us here today?

[Curious Individual]

I think it's an intersection of what you're exploring in your podcast and what I'm exploring in my life. And I was like, oh, I wonder if there is a part of what I'm curious about that you could help with. To be honest, that's part of it.

[Esther Perel]

And that part is, if you had to describe it.

[Curious Individual]

The part of me that gets fearful is wondering if I'm missing something. Am I ignoring a part of myself? What I want, what I need. That's a big part of it. It's just the doubt.

[Esther Perel]

If you were avoiding something, what would you be avoiding? If this is all one big protection strategy, what are you protecting? Because then the questions are not about monogamy, plurality, transparency. And the question is really, what's the fear that lives inside of me that is not new. That has probably accompanied me in marriage one, marriage two, and every other relationship in between. And so our conversation today is about that. That specific fear that has the ability to take your openness, your curiosity and your thirst for life and your confidence and turn it on its head.

[Curious Individual]

I think it is a deep fear.

[Esther Perel]

That you smiled in recognition, by the way. Yeah, that smile that says, between you and you, that says, I know me.

[Curious Individual]

And it's such a simple, knowing. But it's so painful. And I think it's that I'm not enough for others. I'm not enough in the world. I go back and forth between being too much and not being enough. I have this part that's telling me constantly, I'm too big, I'm too much.

[Esther Perel]

Too much what?

[Curious Individual]

Arrogant, confident, outspoken. All of the things that tend to produce some rejection in society. For me as a female in the south, there is, I think, a lot of cultural judgment of the way I approach life. And then there's this other part that never has felt like enough to keep the connection with another person in a consistent, confident way.

[Esther Perel]

And that leads to.

[Curious Individual]

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I Think a lot. I think it leads to lack of confidence, self doubt, shifting myself and my wants to meet the needs of others, to denying my own needs because my needs are going to go into the too much category. So if I can just be easy and giving, then other people will want to be connected to me because I'm in the posture of helper or giver, thus social work and clergy life. That keeps my connection because I have value there. But somehow, if I'm honest about my needs and wants, I'm going to overwhelm people and not be able to remain connected. I keep finding myself in the same place where either I choose to be connected to people who don't really want to meet my needs, they might want to be needed, but they don't want to actually meet my needs or be in a supportive position, or I stop speaking my needs before I even find out if they're capable or want to be in that relationship with me.

[Esther Perel]

And when you I'm asking you questions just because we just met. Yes, but you have met yourself and you say, I have met this part of me that says you're too much and the part of me that says you're not enough. I know them both very well and I know know them for a long time. So let me meet them a little bit more. And let me also ask, when you say when I meet someone, when you meet someone in your congregation, when you meet someone as a friend, when you meet someone as a lover or potential partner, is there a difference between the way these parts live in the world and the type of relationship that we're talking about?

[Curious Individual]

I think in a professional role I have such a protective Persona of professional and it's a one way street. It's not mutual. And I mean it is on a very deep level. But I can still present as the giver and I think sometimes the expert.

[Esther Perel]

And do you sometimes find yourself in that situation where you say why do all of them know who to turn to and I'm there for them and I have no one that I can turn to like they do with me, who would do for me what I do for them?

[Curious Individual]

Yeah. That is a story that is repeated often. Another reason I reached out, I think now is I'm 50. I think there is a scarcity mindset on some level about am I going to have what I need in these next years? And there is just this story, this part that tells me the story. You're going to end up alone, you're going to die alone, you're going to spend your whole life taking care of other people. And then in the end, while I have such good friends and I have so many connections, there is a fear that nobody has to be there for me. Everybody that I'm in relationship with has another partner and so I'm not the most important thing to anyone.

[Esther Perel]

Hmm.

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We have to take a brief break.

[Esther Perel]

So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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[Esther Perel]

And here's.

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[Esther Perel]

Take me back. Take me back a little bit. Because the beauty of what you're saying is I'm afraid. It's a fear you're not telling me. Nobody's there for me. They are there. And nevertheless, I'm still afraid that there may be no one there. I'm still afraid that I will have resent the fact that I gave to everyone, that I was not just that I gave to everyone, but that in the moments of need that people come to me, I am the most important one. That there is something about meeting people at their most vulnerable that makes me very, very important.

[Curious Individual]

That's right.

[Esther Perel]

And that is true for therapists, for clergy, for medical professionals. I mean, and it's often a kind of importance that is hard to replicate in other relationships, in other parts of one's life. Who wants you as much as someone who comes in a dire situation to speak with their clergy? I mean, you are it. And if the I am it, I am that most important person you turn to is the level at which you feel safe of not being alone. Finish the sentence.

[Curious Individual]

How can that ever exist in a mutual relationship where I'm not the expert and I'm not the crisis counselor and I'm not the clergy? I'm just one real human with another real human.

[Esther Perel]

And how do I find a way to make this actually a state of respite and relief rather than a state of deprivation and fear?

[Curious Individual]

Preach.

[Esther Perel]

You're the preacher. So tell me, when did you first meet? Too much and not enough. How did they become such big parts of you?

[Curious Individual]

I mean, I think I've always known them. I think over the last 14 years, I've befriended them, but I'VE always known them. So as a child I lived in a home where from the outside it looked very stable. And on some level it definitely was. And on the deeper level, I have a sibling who has severe mental illness and was acting out a lot and then another sibling that was gone. And I'm six years younger than both of them. And so I was little, I was in my house where there was a lot of chaos. And the one person I really felt connected to was my father. But he was a businessman and he traveled constantly and would be gone for three, four weeks at a time. And I would never know when he was leaving or when he was coming back because I was little and they just didn't talk about that. So I have memories of waking up and seeing his bags at the doorway and just being like, oh God. Knowing that when he left I was alone because my mom didn't really have the capacity to deal with my sibling. And it was just chaos, lots of fighting. But then when my dad was home, he would ground things and I would feel safe again. But it was inconsistent and unpredictable and I think that I just kind of hid out. But yet I was really responsible from a young age to be kind of the emotional lightning rod. So I think it was really difficult to be have that part of me, that helper part, to be overdeveloped at such a young age. And so then when I went out into the world with this kind of over developed sense of, I don't know, helper maturity, there was a pushback and I was often rejected for being overly confident or arrogant or all of these words that got, I think, thrown at me from a young age by peers, but also teachers and then people in charge of institutions that I worked in or people in authority. So I had this childhood where I didn't have a consistent connection. And I think part of me feels like it's because I wasn't enough to keep the consistent connection. I wasn't enough to stay home for. And then I was also too much in the world often or seen as that and critiqued as that.

[Esther Perel]

What do you mean when you say to stay home for?

[Curious Individual]

I think there's a part of me that thinks if my dad had known how much I needed him there, if I'd been enough for him to take care of, he wouldn't have kept leaving.

[Esther Perel]

So you personalized his leaving?

[Curious Individual]

I think so. I think, yeah. I think as a.

[Esther Perel]

How old is that young person?

[Curious Individual]

I did, oh, little. Six, maybe even younger, but definitely around six.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I had in mind five Six? Yeah.

[Curious Individual]

And I also had my. When I was six years old, my doctor told my parents that I was overweight and they put me on a diet at six where all of my food was weighed and I could only eat what was weighed, but everybody else in my family could have whatever they wanted. But at 6, wow.

[Esther Perel]

For how long?

[Curious Individual]

Oh, until I was probably, I mean, I'm not sure how long the weighing of the food took place, but then I had to like go to Weight Watchers and weigh in public and until I was probably 15, 16, so. Talk about being too much.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I just thought of that too. Did you stop on your own?

[Curious Individual]

Oh, no, I think I stopped eating so much and lost a bunch of weight and then they were like, oh, it's great, she's fine now. When I'm stressed, my appetite goes away. Right. So when I am stressed, I stop needing much of anything because that was, you know, everything was very controlled. My needs didn't dictate what I was given, it was literally weighed and that's what I got. So I think the combination of all of that, these young parts of me that believe my needs have to be controlled and weighed in order to be fed.

[Esther Perel]

And how do you communicate with that young part of you? You know, like many five year olds personalize. If my parents divorce, it's because of me. If my father travels or if he really cared, if I was more, he would not travel rather than whatever the circumstances of his Life. So at 5, 6, we do put ourselves at the center of the universe. It's actually developmentally common. What's more troubling is when that five year old still runs the show and when it still looks that you live with this feeling that people are weighing your food, your emotional food, maybe not your physical food, your material food, but your emotional food. And that it's decided by the outside and that you always have a tenuous relationship to your own needs and that you actually, on some level, since you didn't really get to learn what they were on some level because somebody else was applying metrics to it. So you're left with a certain uncertainty about what's too little, what's too much, what's fair, what's not fair, what do I deserve, what do I not deserve? What can I ask for? What should I not have to ask for that other people should just give me. Yep. This whole yes dance right around.

[Curious Individual]

So how do I interact with that part?

[Esther Perel]

I let her know that you are not five anymore. Right. It's like. And that yes, there is Something about being intensely needed that makes me feel less afraid that I will be alone. Because if people need me, they come. Yes, there is something artificial in some way in the level of importance that one has, certainly as a clergy, as a person who accompanies people at the most extreme situations and moments of their life. So I am so central, so much bearer of meaning and ritual and grief and all of that. So outside of that realm, it often feels some challenging like, so then, who am I when I'm not this? What's my value? Who am I? What would people come to me for? And so a part of me absolutely wants people to come to me in those moments. And then a part of me feels that, you know, but they don't come for small things. Come to come for something simple for a change. I mean, I'm fantasizing about you. I'm riffing out loud, you tell me if it's hot or cold.

[Curious Individual]

No, it's absolutely true. I think there's security in being needed and a lot of insecurity in needing for me for that part. But that part gets the keys to the bus, so to speak. When I am in mutual relationships that don't have.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, when I'm not in this role, I am secure. When I'm needed, I am insecure. When I need. Yep, this is the organizing line of our conversation.

[Curious Individual]

Yes, I am insecure when I have any needs.

[Esther Perel]

And I am also insecure when you don't need me in such an acute way. Like, can I be liked just for who I am rather than for what I provide? That one touched you.

[Curious Individual]

I think within every relationship I've had, there comes a point where I've asked that question, does this person love me for who I am or for what I do for them? And I've never trusted, no matter what they say, I've never really trusted that they love me and want me and want to be connected to me because of just who I am. In fact, when I even say the words who I am, it almost feels like a reverb. Like I don't even know what that means. Part of me is like, what does that mean? Meet who you are if I'm not.

[Esther Perel]

Helping you, saving you, advising you, ministering to you? Do you enjoy my company? Do you value my presence? Do you seek me out to have fun, to explore, to talk, to create deep connection? But that is not based on my being the deliverer of help. What other transactions exist between me and my partners that is not rooted in that structure? I think the question is really, really good. And it's less a question about them. Would they like me if they didn't need me or if I wasn't helping them is not a question they have. That's why you say even when, regardless of what they tell me, I don't believe them because a part of me is deeply attached to being needed. I'm comfortable there. And part of why you're here today is to say what else is out there for me.

[Curious Individual]

What am I missing? What am I missing? This is the key.

[Esther Perel]

So now I'm with this new person and how would he respond if I actually didn't position myself as the expert advice, helper, rescuer, but just in a more mutual, as you say, more reciprocal. Because it's not about flipping it. It's not about me becoming. It's really mutual. Reciprocal, open ended.

[Curious Individual]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I don't know. What have you tried so far? You've two years with him.

[Curious Individual]

Yeah, a little more than that now I'm trying. This is something we've talked about is I'm trying to state what I need clearly because sometimes I think I've said a need but it's not clear to whom and when. I. Well, I think probably wouldn't be clear to most people because the way I'll state it is so like convoluted.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Curious Individual]

And avoidant. You know, I'm so avoidant with my. Well, I'm not always, but I have a comfort with being ambiguous about my needs because then they won't be too much.

[Esther Perel]

And so if I don't catch it and if I didn't hear it, you didn't really make it so obvious. So then you don't have to be disappointed that you asked for something and it was refused. So you ask it in such a convoluted way that if I miss it, we can pretend it never happened.

[Curious Individual]

That's right.

[Esther Perel]

So now let's do a little exercise. Give me 10 things you need.

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Five.

[Esther Perel]

Let's do it. I'll be gentle.

[Curious Individual]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Give me five.

[Curious Individual]

Five things I need.

[Podcast Ad]

Yeah, but the point is not about what you need.

[Esther Perel]

This is not in the what. This is in the healthy sense of entitlement to just ask and not put myself and turn myself into such a pretzel who is on the one hand uncomfortable, on the other hand angry that you even have to. And then confused about it and then tense about it and then fearful about it. And it's wrapped in so many things that it's usually not surprising that the question didn't come out simple and clear. So we don't have a relationship, so you can just practice with me. We have an ad hoc momentary intimacy here. And I'm just saying give me five things you would like, you enjoy, you need, you long for, you aspire to, and breathe each time you say them. Just this is about embodying them and about being at ease. Because there's nothing I can do. I'm just a stranger. We met, you met. And I don't come with history. I'm all ears. I.

[Curious Individual]

Need to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Now take a deep breath and say it again and you'll stop when you've said it with ease and calm.

[Curious Individual]

I need to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

You need to be seen.

[Curious Individual]

I need to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me again.

[Curious Individual]

I need to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Loosen your jaw. Just loosen your jaw. Because you're holding it all right at the jaw. You can literally take your hands and just loosen it. And then tell me again.

[Curious Individual]

I need to be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, much better. I need to be seen.

[Podcast Host]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

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Last year, Hooters closed dozens of restaurants because of rising food and labor costs.

[Lowes Ad]

Hooters is shifting away from its iconic skimpy waitress outfits and bikini days, instead opting for a family friendly vibe. They're vowing to improve the food and ingredients and staff is now being urged to grow. Greet women first.

[News Segment Host]

When groups arrive, maybe in April of 2025, you're thinking, good riddance. Does the world still really need this chain of breastaurants? But then we were surprised to learn of who exactly was mourning the potential loss of Hooters. Straight guys who like chicken, sure, but also a bunch of gay guys who like chicken. Check out today. Explain to find out why exactly, exactly that is, won't you?

[Esther Perel]

And what else do you need want?

[Curious Individual]

Like, I need to be fed and feed myself. I need to be cared for. And I'm don't. I don't even really know what that means when I say it like, but it just feels like a deep like I need to and want to be cared for.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, you do know what it means, because you care for a ton of people. It means you think of them, you hold them in your thoughts. You hold them. Really, you touch them, you reach out to them.

[Curious Individual]

So this just came to me. I need to allow myself to be cared for.

[Podcast Ad]

Nice.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, nice. Say that one again.

[Curious Individual]

I need to allow myself to be cared for.

[Esther Perel]

So close your eyes for a moment and just feel it. Where does this allowance to be cared for start? In your body. Where does it begin?

[Curious Individual]

Feels like an expansiveness in my lower gut, like an opening.

[Esther Perel]

Put your hands there and just breathe right into it so that you feel that expansion. Physically feel it, sense it. Nothing like the membrane of your gut expanding, tightening, blowing open and pressing against your hands. It's exactly where you probably held the bottom of your child when you were holding them. And when you open the bottom of the gut, it opens the chest. And when you open the chest, it opens your shoulders. And when you open your shoulders, it lifts your neck and it loosens your jaw. And you are allowing yourself to be cared for. You're making space for needs, for wants, for pleasures, for what other people can give to you. You're surrounded by people who actually want to give to you, that is not your issue.

[Podcast Ad]

Okay?

[Esther Perel]

We've established that you're not alone. You're not alone. It's. Can I allow myself to let them give? Because when they do, then that makes me more vulnerable because it puts me in touch with those needs and it puts me in touch with the fear that today they're here, but tomorrow they could not be here. Welcome to life. Who doesn't have that feeling? When you love, you live with the fear of loss. That's fact. They can die, they can get sick, they can leave. The moment you get close, you live with the fear of what it would be to lose them. Everyone does. That's existential. That's not just psychological. The degree with which you live with that fear to the point where it doesn't allow you to let people in at a level that you would like. That's psychological, that's historical. The existence of the fear itself is normal. It's real. But if you close yourself and you don't allow that expansion inside that says come in, say it in your own words.

[Curious Individual]

The fear of losing the people we love is a fear everyone knows and experiences. But the my self protective part that keeps the connection from deepening by allowing people to care for me is one that I learned to do.

[Esther Perel]

How does that land on you?

[Curious Individual]

It feels both heavy, like, oh my gosh, I've spent a lot of time protecting myself and that makes sense. And there are consequences to that. And I also am aware that if I learned it, I can continue to unlearn that behavior.

[Esther Perel]

Shall we do one more? I need.

[Curious Individual]

Yeah, sure. Let's see. I need to be vulnerable. And the word weak is coming to my mind that have such negative connotation, connotations. But I really mean it in a sense like a body way. Like I need to be able to show up in moments more fragile or weak. Not. Yeah, just that I need to be able to experience fragility, to be present in a fragile way.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, fragile, weaker, vulnerable. As opposed to knowing. All in charge. Too much. Arrogant. That whole other. Yes, beautiful. I need to be allowed to not know, to be afraid, to be unsure, to be fragile without any negativity associated to all of this.

[Curious Individual]

Hungry.

[Esther Perel]

Nice.

[Curious Individual]

And I need to be able to be needy of the things that sustain me. All of the other things we listed really fall under this. Just. I need to be able to be needy.

[Esther Perel]

So I have a little suggestion for you. Can you think of two or three people that you could go to and say, this woman I talked to made me do this whole thing. And then she said, I'd like you to ask a few people who know you well, how am I doing in this department.

[Curious Individual]

Of showing up? Needy? Vulnerable.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, vulnerable. Need to be fed, need to be held, need to be seen. You know, do you even know that I have those needs? Have I ever even articulated some of these things in ways that I'm not aware of? It comes out anyway. Or does it look like I'm always, you know, well put together, all in charge and God would never know that I have any of this living inside of me? And she wanted me to do a little survey, fact checking about what's the relationship between what lives inside of me and what lives between me and you.

[Curious Individual]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Could be your ex wife with whom you co parent and are on good terms. Could be your current partner. Could be a good friend. You don't have to make it a whole session, but just, you know, I want to do a little pulse check. Could that be?

[Curious Individual]

Yeah, definitely. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Is this a good place to stop?

[Curious Individual]

Yes. Thank you, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

Very good.

[Curious Individual]

Yes.

[Podcast Host]

This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we Begin with Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Natt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.