Esther Calling - Esther says "Run!"

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel – Episode Summary: "Esther Calling - Esther Says 'Run!'"

Release Date: June 23, 2025

In this compelling episode of Esther Perel’s acclaimed podcast, “Where Should We Begin?”, Jessica shares her intricate and challenging relationship with her Mexican boyfriend, shedding light on cultural clashes, possessiveness, and complex relationship dynamics. Esther Perel skillfully navigates Jessica’s narrative, offering profound insights and tough-love advice that underscores the importance of self-awareness and healthy boundaries in relationships.

Introduction to Jessica’s Relationship

Jessica, a 38-year-old South African living in Mexico, opens up about her four-month relationship with a Mexican man who is already married and has a child. The relationship, which began five months ago after knowing each other for a while at her English school, is characterized by mutual respect, love, and laughter. However, underlying issues of possessiveness and control have surfaced, leading to recurring arguments.

Jessica [00:00]: "My boyfriend and I have been together for about four months. We come from very different backgrounds. He is Mexican and I am South African."

Cultural Differences and Personalities

The cultural disparities between Jessica and her boyfriend are significant. While Jessica describes herself as a free-spirited artist, her boyfriend exhibits traits influenced by his military background, such as control, organization, and a provider mentality. These differences manifest in their approaches to conflict resolution and emotional expression.

Jessica [08:50]: "The biggest difference I'm seeing between the two cultures is that the Mexicans or the Latinas or Latinos, they love drama, they are very expressive and passionate, as opposed to South Africans who are more conservative and keep their opinions to themselves."

This cultural clash extends to their handling of conflicts. Jessica tends to flee during arguments, driven by a "fight or flight" response, whereas her boyfriend remains steadfast, aiming to resolve issues even amidst anger.

Jessica [10:51]: "He just gave me this hug and he just held me tight. And he's like, I'm angry, but it doesn't mean that I don't want to be here with you."

Possessiveness and Control Issues

A central conflict in their relationship revolves around Jessica’s boyfriend’s possessiveness. He demands that she delete all ex-boyfriends from her phone and unfollow them on Instagram, citing jealousy and a fear of future infidelity. Jessica struggles with this request as she values her past friendships and integrity.

Jessica [02:22]: "He has asked of me to delete ex-boyfriends that I have on my phone that I have made friends with over the years since those relationships ended."

Esther probes deeper into the implications of such demands, highlighting the unhealthy dynamics of control disguised as care.

Esther [12:31]: "He may ask you to delete them on Instagram, but that doesn't mean you don't think about them and they don't live inside of you."

Complex Relationship Dynamics

The revelation that Jessica’s boyfriend is married and has a child adds another layer of complexity. Their marriage is described as one of convenience, with both parties allowed to seek partners outside the union. While Jessica is committed and plans to join him globally, the ongoing connection he maintains with his wife and obligations to his family create persistent uncertainties.

Jessica [23:37]: "He is married and he has a one-year-old. They entered the marriage out of convenience or financial reasons, not out of love."

This arrangement raises critical questions about loyalty, future planning, and the feasibility of blending two separate lives with existing responsibilities.

Internal Conflict and Emotional Vulnerability

Jessica grapples with the emotional toll of compromising her boundaries to secure a partnership. She acknowledges the allure of not being alone but is conflicted about the conditions imposed by her boyfriend, which threaten her autonomy and support systems.

Esther [28:22]: "You're making yourself another cage... You're not creating something new or original."

Jessica expresses fear of becoming isolated and dependent, highlighting her vulnerability in a relationship that demands significant personal sacrifices.

Jessica [45:00]: "I will be in a very vulnerable and threatened position."

Esther’s Tough-Love Intervention

Throughout the session, Esther challenges Jessica to critically evaluate her choices and the long-term implications of her relationship. She confronts the notion that control equates to care and warns against entering a relationship that imposes restrictive conditions disguised as love.

Esther [46:03]: "If you're meant to be together, it will work without me saying that."

Her blunt approach emphasizes the necessity of maintaining personal boundaries and the importance of mutual respect and trust in a healthy relationship.

Conclusion: The Path Forward

The episode concludes with Jessica reflecting on Esther’s insights. While she acknowledges the validity of the concerns raised, she remains conflicted, caught between the desire for companionship and the fear of losing her autonomy and support network.

Esther [51:31]: "This is the old system. You are too much of a free woman for me."

Jessica’s journey underscores the delicate balance between love and self-respect, illustrating how cultural differences and control issues can complicate even seemingly loving relationships. Esther’s intervention serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of self-awareness and the courage to make difficult choices for one’s well-being.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Jessica [02:22]: "He has asked of me to delete ex-boyfriends that I have on my phone..."
• Esther [12:31]: "He may ask you to delete them on Instagram, but that doesn't mean you don't think about them..."
• Esther [28:22]: "You're making yourself another cage..."
• Jessica [45:00]: "I will be in a very vulnerable and threatened position."

This episode of “Where Should We Begin?” offers a profound exploration of the complexities of modern relationships, highlighting the importance of balancing love with personal boundaries and self-respect.

Transcript

[Sarah]

My boyfriend and I have been together for about four months. We come from very different backgrounds. He is Mexican and I am South African. I am living and working in Mexico and although I believe jealousy is important in a relationship, it challenges a relationship.

[Jessica]

In a healthy way.

[Sarah]

I have come to know that he is possessive and this is a very big concern for me because we have have our future planned and we have had many arguments around this topic and I think that this is going to be a recurring argument in our future and I want to approach him about my concerns.

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[Esther]

If you have had many arguments already in the first four months, you have already approached him with your concerns.

[Jessica]

Yes, and he has approached me with his with regards to. Well, I've approached him regards to. I think it's a trait of possessiveness. And he. He doesn't seem to believe so he kind of does. Like I had to kind of google it to show him. Like this is how I feel. You know, this is what possessiveness means to me and what I see is happening. So we have spoken since that recording. I don't think it's 100% resolved because what he has asked of me is to delete ex boyfriends that I have on my phone that I have made friends with over the years since those relationships ended, and also to unfollow them on Instagram. And it's been. It's been a difficult one for me because I have established a friendship with Them. Not that we talk every day or stay in contact every day, but the fact that I have cultivated a friendship after the relationships, he doesn't seem to understand or like this idea and wants me to delete these people off my phone and not have contact with him at all. So, yeah, this is the difficult part for me to kind of accept.

[Esther]

Maybe. Before we plunge into the challenges, tell me a little bit about the relationship.

[Jessica]

I'm a teacher, and I'm at an English school here in Mexico teaching Spanish students. I met him here at the school. We are the same age. We have known each other for a little while, but we started talking more often about five months ago now. And we have a lot of respect for one another. We have a lot of love for one another. We get along really well. We laugh a lot, we share a lot. We've had our challenges, including this one. And I'm not too sure what else you would like to know.

[Esther]

What drew you to each other?

[Jessica]

What drew you to each other?

[Esther]

In what ways? Are you from very different cultures? Besides, I mean, I know the names of the cultures, but how are those differences manifesting for you? How do they draw you closer, and how do they create surprise, and how do they create conflict? And how do you deal with those differences? Because it's not in the difference itself. It's the emotional resonance that these differences bring up, including what you call possessiveness, which he calls. What? When you had to Google the term for him, you had different names for them. So what did he call this? Respect?

[Jessica]

Well, no, I don't know if it's respect. He sees it as wanting all of me, and he doesn't really want to accept my past. It hurts him. He says my past hurts him, even though it's my past and there's not much I can do to change it. And he thinks that because I've held onto the past, well, that I have these contacts on my phone, that this is going to be the end of our relationship one day, that one of these guys might swoop in and twist me away. This is his imagination. And I don't see it like that. Like I want to spend my life with him. I have chosen this with him. We have spoken about many things, about our future and with regards to our cultures, coming from a very conservative sort of culture.

[Esther]

May I just ask, in. In what ways does your past hurt him? And how do you understand that?

[Jessica]

Well, to put it maybe bluntly.

[Esther]

Yes, that's how you be with me.

[Jessica]

Okay, I'll be bluntly then. He wanted to Know my, my sexual past. Yes, yes, of course.

[Esther]

That's the one we talk about.

[Jessica]

I'm quite open and honest with him about things that he asks me. I mean, I don't think I have anything to hide. And I had told him, you know, who was in my past. Who were. Yeah, the men that were in my past and the sexual relationships that I've had. And he didn't like that. It was a number higher than his.

[Esther]

What did that mean? What did that mean? That you had more sexual experiences or sexual partners than his meant? What?

[Jessica]

I don't know if it means that I had more experience than him. I think it's the fact that he feels like that I have given a lot of myself to other men as opposed to him, which makes me feel really bad. It kind of makes me feel ashamed in some way which I shouldn't be. I don't know if that answers your question.

[Esther]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. It doesn't answer it, but it's a beginning for us to think together about your situation. But you were beginning to say I grew up in a conservative.

[Jessica]

Yes, A conservative country in South Africa. The biggest difference I'm seeing between the two cultures is that the Mexicans or the Latinas or Latinos, they love drama, they very expressive and they're also very passionate people, as opposed to South Africans are a little bit more conservative. They kind of keep a pair opinions to themselves. The challenges within our relationship is that because he's a Mexican man, he likes to be in control of certain things. He likes to be the provider, he likes to be the, the breadwinner. This is very strong in his culture. Very masculine energy coming through. And I have, I'm a bit of a free spirit. I'm an artist. So I think being controlled in some way is quite opposite of what I would like sometimes. Like, you know, I'm a bit more impulsive where he's a little bit more, more objective and thinks things through. I don't know if that's a man thing or a female thing or a Mexican thing. But we have recognized these two different things in our relationship as well. He does come from a military background, so he has that in him as well where it's very know, straight forward, like being in control and taking control of the situation in a difficult situation and thinking objectively and clear headedly and not getting emotions involved where I'm the complete opposite of that. So yeah, I think it's cultural and also our backgrounds are different. I'm more of the artist and he's more of the military guy and what.

[Esther]

Draws you to him about that? What's the parts of his rationality? Control, organization, order?

[Jessica]

I like that he is provider. I actually like that he's a provider because I've always provided for myself. I've always kind of stood on my own two feet and kind of gone through life on my own accord. So having someone sort of provide for me and wanting to take care of me is something I'm allowing and letting in and accepting. And it feels quite good, to be honest, to kind of allow someone else to do that for me and not just not only rely on myself, but what draws me to him. I think it's probably my father was also in the military, and they do have a certain poise, they have certain loyalty that they have. They are very direct, where maybe I'm a little bit up in the clouds, they can be a little bit more streamlined and a little bit more direct with certain things. And I kind of like that about him as well. And he has taught me some valuable lessons as well when it comes to certain aspects of life that I've never seen it in that light. And he would kind of bring those things to light. And I'm like, okay, that's an interesting perspective.

[Esther]

So, like what?

[Jessica]

So when. When we have an argument, for me, what I generally do, I kind of. I have, you know, the fight or flight aspect. I have the flee. I want to flee. I want to get away. But he's one that would stand and, you know, just continue talking and try and work through it, even if we get angry or even if we get upset with one another. The other day when we had an argument, I was still very upset about something, and he just gave me this hug and he just held me tight. And he's like, I'm angry, but it doesn't mean that I don't want to be here with you. I am holding you and I want to be here. So this is interesting for me because I normally just want to run away. And he's like, even if you are angry, like, you can still stay and still communicate and you don't have to run away. You don't have to feel like you need to get away from that. So that's an example, a good example of what I mean.

[Esther]

And if I asked him what draws him to you, since he likes clear structures and he likes to know he's the man, and it comes with certain ideas about what masculinity is, and a woman that has had many other men makes him less of a man. And he may ask you to delete them on Instagram, but that doesn't mean you don't think about them and they don't live inside of you. And he may ask you if he's as good a lover as them. Does he do that?

[Jessica]

No, he hasn't asked in a specific way like that. Maybe he's thought about it, but. But no, he hasn't asked in that way.

[Esther]

But there's a part of him that thinks that a woman has had as many men as you have. Whatever the number is, it's irrelevant. More than him. That's what matters here. Basically, she did something wrong. That's why the shame is creeping up on you. What you thought was just a part of your lifestyle has now become something that cheapens you. Okay, so then what's to draw for him? Because you're going to need to remember that both of you, that the same things that are drawing you together at this moment are also going to be from day one. Because these things have appeared pretty much on day one. You're a very young couple, so this has been with you from the beginning. Some people say your arguments, you will know them on day two, and from then on, they will accompany you through life. So there's the parts of this that you will find. He's principled, he's loyal, he stays put, he doesn't run away when it gets challenging. And that same set of attributes will then be seen as he's controlling, he's principled, and therefore he will continue to talk about it until he has made his point and I've basically said you right? He will remind me of my checkered past, so to speak. And he will make me constantly wonder if I am trespassing and crossing boundaries and acting inappropriately every time he feels insecure. And there probably will be a little bit of both sometimes and sometimes not. But all of this I know from the start. So what's his draw? Because I would say the same thing to him if he was here. And I would say, remember this, because everything you're putting down is part of what has also drawn you to her.

[Jessica]

I think what has drawn him to me is probably my outer beauty. First, from the stories that he told me, like, you know, coming to the school and hoping to see me and to have some sort of interaction with me. I don't know. He says that he is just. It feels like. It feels like infatuation as well that he has had for me, but now it's become a little bit more than that. Getting to know me more. He's drawn to my outer beauty. He's now drawn to my inner beauty. He wrote me a love letter and said things like he loves the way I flavor food. He says he loves how I paint and how I'm an artist. Oh, there's so many things he said. He loves to watch my eyes. He loves to look at them. He loves my hair and my ears. He loves the way I see the world and how I view the world in my own lens. And that he always that he's always looking forward to seeing me. It was really special love letter, to be honest. So yeah, there's a lot that he sees in me.

[Esther]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Nina]

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[Esther]

Your question is what to do with what I see? Your question is can I live with this? Your question is what? Because you're not going to change him?

[Jessica]

No, exactly. Astir and I don't want to change him either. You know, that's something that I am looking for is to change him. But I want him to be able to trust me and know that I am in this 100% planning our future together. Me having now decided to continue living in Mexico and also when he's pursuing his dream and working around the world, that I will be joining him. You know, I have made this very big decision not to live back in South Africa, but to be with him. But at the same time, he is unsure about our future. He's unsure because of my past.

[Esther]

He's unsure of your future because of your past. Please tell me more.

[Jessica]

Because of my relationships with men in the past. Because I've had more sexual relationships than him and because what to him?

[Esther]

What are we saying exactly? Going to go back to the word you used before? Be blunt.

[Jessica]

Okay. He thinks that I will be disloyal to him, that I would cheat on him. Basically, he thinks this. He thinks that if I stay in contact with these ex boyfriends that there will be some communication and then one day I will leave him and go to someone else or I will cheat on him. And this is Just so far from the truth.

[Esther]

Has that happened no to you in other relationships?

[Jessica]

No, it hasn't. I've lived many lives. I've had many different occupations. But I want to change that. I want a different future. I want to have a partner, a life partner.

[Esther]

But does he have ground to think? I mean, is there a history of cheating or betrayal or disloyalty? Or is there a history of a woman who has been free spirited and who has lived many lives, but each of them with integrity?

[Jessica]

No, there hasn't been any of. Well, there has been integrity in my past. I haven't cheated on anyone.

[Esther]

Okay.

[Jessica]

I've also made it clear that if there are problems within our relationship, I would rather talk about it as opposed to trying to find it with another man or I just don't think that's true to who I am. I'd rather try and sort it out. And if it can't be sorted out, if we do have to split up, it would be with regards to between him and I. It wouldn't be because of external people.

[Esther]

And does he think that the problem is your past? Or does he also ask himself whether what is now being defined as the problem of your past may lie with him as well? Or is it just you?

[Jessica]

I think with him as well. There. There is another aspect to our relationship that I haven't mentioned that might be important. It probably is important.

[Esther]

Okay.

[Jessica]

But it is a decision that I've made. We have spoken many times about it. So it's not. It's not. Okay, let me just say it what it is. He. He is married and he has a child. But their agreements before they got married was that they can both find partners with outside the marriage. It was more a marriage of convenience or financial.

[Esther]

So now the plot thickens.

[Jessica]

Yes, it definitely does.

[Esther]

We've spent too much time without knowing this. So tell me, how does this enter your relationship?

[Jessica]

Sorry, I wasn't sure if I wanted to bring that up or not. But maybe it is important. Yes, he is married and he has a one year old. They entered the marriage out of convenience, out of financial convenience and not out of being together out of like love or. Yes, there's love and respect between the two of them, but they're not. They won't be spending their future together. Basically he's there to financially support them. Him and his mother in law and brother in law. And when I say support, I mean financially. So this is what he's brought into the relationship. I have known about this from the start. So it's not something that he has hid from me. We have spoken about this many times. His wife knows about me. Yeah.

[Esther]

And the other people, do they all know about you?

[Jessica]

His wife does, yes. His mother in law has an inkling about it. She doesn't know 100% but she has some idea that there is someone else. And the brother in law? I don't think so.

[Esther]

And his wife understands that you are. What? Who?

[Jessica]

That we are in a serious relationship. She does know my name, where I work, and we haven't met, but she does know of me.

[Esther]

And how does this shape your relationship?

[Jessica]

In many ways. In many ways we do want a future together, him and I. We are planning our future together. He would like to have more children and have those children with me as well. But divorce with his wife is out of the question. And I think why it's so difficult for me to. Coming back to the initial problem, the, you know, deleting my ex boyfriends off my phone is that he will.

[Esther]

Yes, yes, yes. Say it first.

[Jessica]

Yes, he, he will have a connection with his wife forever. But I, I can't have a number on my phone with boyfriend.

[Esther]

What do you think about all of that?

[Jessica]

This, this is where I have had difficulty with this. And this is why we have had many arguments about it because I keep bringing this app. I'm like, you still have a wife, but I can't have any ex boyfriends on my phone. But you have, you can keep in contact with her every day. He can get to see his daughter whenever he wants. And rightfully so. I mean they. It's his daughter. I wouldn't want him to, you know, to not have a relationship with her. But it has been difficult because he is still connected to his wife in a big way. And this is why I've had a problem deleting these numbers, to be honest.

[Esther]

Well, you're being very moderate. I mean there is a whole lot of family.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther]

There is people who don't know about you or they kind of know you exist, but you know, there is basically a ceiling above you because I don't know if marriage matters to you or not, but there will never be such a thing. There is a profound asymmetry. A profound asymmetry.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther]

I need. I have. You should. And you've been arguing since the beginning. No sooner has he met you that he's already putting his conditions.

[Jessica]

The big word, conditions. Yes.

[Esther]

Okay. I'm sorry. I understand the caretaking and I'm sure if he can take care of his mother in law, his Brother in law who will be dependent on him forever and his wife that you know, that there's a lure for you. Or finally, someone who takes care of me. I've had to do it all by myself. I'm so tired of being on my own. Here's a real guy who's gonna show up. But the conditions.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Yes. Yes, sir, the conditions.

[Esther]

I'm sorry, I'm really. I can see the beautiful love letter, the hair, the eyes, the lure and the whole thing. But this is not just a love story you're aiming for. You're choosing a life story.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I mean, we are. We're looking for an apartment to live in.

[Esther]

Doesn't matter. The conditions won't change.

[Jessica]

Can we clarify the conditions, please? The conditions as in he won't get divorced. And.

[Esther]

Well, the conditions start with. You need to tailor yourself to what I think is palatable. You need to make sure that I don't have to feel any insecurity on the risk that you could have an affair on me while I just had one on my own wife, however we call it not. You know, baby's a year old, so it's not like they're. The convenience came when exactly you met him? When the baby was 6, 7 months old. So it's like something doesn't click, you know? You should make sure that I cannot ever think you can betray me in any way whatsoever. You are too much of a free woman for me. But I am having an affair on my wife to whom I've told what exactly? I will forever be there for you. I will take care of you. I'm just going to go and have my romantic love somewhere else. And I'm going to install the oldest system of wife and mistress. I'll have kids with both and I'll take care of both families as long as you know what you're doing.

[Jessica]

I have. I have known what I've been doing.

[Esther]

You understand? I mean, this comes. This is an old system. You're not creating something new or original. This is the old system. And you will feel taken care of with conditions beholden and responsible for him to not have to necessarily take responsibility for his part in these stories so that he's the upstanding citizen and you're the slut. So you tell me what is drawing you to this? Because who came before? What are the hurts you carry that you are allowing this to become the box you want to live in? I'm being really blunt as well, because we have one hour together and you're not going to make this guy less jealous or less possessive or less controlling or less suffocating. There's a lot of big words after four months. Yeah, what are you doing? What are you bringing with you that you are willing to forego your better sense, your home, your roots, your past, your story to enter into which quagmire.

[Jessica]

I have asked myself this question too.

[Esther]

Okay, I hope you're not hearing me disrespectfully. I'm saying this with utter respect, but you seem to have had some life experience and. And you're walking into an absolute mess.

[Jessica]

I don't know. Sometimes he makes it sound so easy, you know, just making everything sort of black and white. Like we are planning our future together. We will live in a different state, in a different country, as opposed to his wife and daughter. I have had many questions that I would ask him and he would always have an answer. So the assurity always seems to be there. So I find myself, you know, just accepting or like, you know, kind of agreeing or like, okay, you know, there have been other things that have come up and that I would ask him about, and he is more than willing to talk it out and to speak about it. And I have my concerns, like what.

[Esther]

If I may ask.

[Jessica]

Well, you know, if we do live in a different state, because he is aiming to be a pilot, commercial pilot, so we would live in different states. But if he doesn't see his daughter, how would we plan around that? How would you get to see your daughter as well as, you know, your own kids with me, if we had to do that, and you're flying for many days at a time or many hours. How do you juggle everything? How do you juggle two families that you have?

[Esther]

And how does he respond?

[Jessica]

You know, it's interesting. He brings up loyalty quite often. He's like, he says he's loyal to his family and he is showing loyalty to me by doing this, by, you know, like, if he comes back home, then he would buy a flight ticket for his wife and his daughter. Daughter to come visit. Or he would go to the state that they live in. And. And I'm like, we haven't even met. I haven't even met his wife. And there's a lot of unanswered questions. A lot of questions have come up, A lot of questions have been asked, but it's still very unsure because we really haven't found ourselves in. In those situations. So there's a lot of hearsay.

[Esther]

And he answers you in ways that put you to sleep. They lull you.

[Jessica]

Can you say more please?

[Esther]

It's false reassurances on stuff he has no idea about with principles. I'm loyal, I'm this. We'll figure it out. Every problem has a solution.

[Jessica]

Yeah, there's no 100% assurity but I'm.

[Esther]

Actually, I'm really asking you because I don't know anything about you or your past or what you bring or who have been the relationships before or who's the family that is left in South Africa. But there's something, as you said, when we have an argument, my tendency is to run away and you are as far from South Africa as can be. So you are a runaway and you are running away and you are entering somebody else's life story, jumping in with two feet, abdicating your own story, your own life. And I would love to know a little bit more about that because there is a feeling when you tell this story of I am running away from my own, entering someone else's a little bit scared about what lies there. But he just says it'll be okay, I'll take care of you. I love the spices you put in the food and I am allowing myself to be totally transported and I become a little girl so eager to be taken care of that I am not seeing anything.

[Jessica]

I think I have said quite a bit that it always comes back to the same. The same thing. Like you say, I may be lulled. Even though I am saying things, I am raising concerns. Yeah.

[Producer]

We'Ll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Nina]

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[Tom]

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[Jessica]

Well, my background. My mother and I have had a difficult relationship since since I was a child. My father and I are quite close, but I know he wasn't around much when I was a kid.

[Esther]

He's a pilot too?

[Jessica]

No, my father is engineered figuratively. Well, he lives in Vietnam so yeah, he.

[Esther]

Yes. Meaning he was also gone.

[Jessica]

Yeah, he was.

[Esther]

So he was the pilot?

[Jessica]

Yes. I've had an interesting background, Afrikaans family, but went to an English school. So I have different sets of cultures within me internally and externally with friends and family. I have worked as a graphic designer and I have traveled the world on a cruise ship, working on a cruise ship. And now I'm in Mexico teaching English.

[Esther]

How old are you, if I may ask?

[Jessica]

I'm 38.

[Esther]

And you're a little bit tired of being unmoored.

[Jessica]

I know what I want from my future, but I'm also tired of being alone and not having a partner, doing it on my own. I want to build memories with someone and I can see that with him. But yes, unfortunately this very heavy, heavy topic is always there. I think I'm very patient.

[Esther]

And his mother in law and his brother in law and his wife, who will forever be his wife and his daughter. You think you're going to be less.

[Jessica]

Alone and him flying?

[Esther]

Yes, yes, of course. I forgot the big piece. Maybe you should all gather together, all of you.

[Jessica]

This is what I would love, Esther. Like I would love to meet them and kind of, you know, make myself seen.

[Esther]

And why is he taking care of all these people? Do we know that his wife lost.

[Jessica]

Her father a couple of years ago and he has always looked out for.

[Esther]

Her and she depends on him.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Yes, she does.

[Esther]

So he doesn't have to worry of the possibilities of her predatoriness?

[Jessica]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, they both can have a relationship outside their marriage, but from what it sounds like, she is not interested because I think her daughter is a priority. But I often wonder, like, what would happen if she does find someone. How would he feel about that? She seems to be okay with me. She seems to be.

[Esther]

Says he. Says he, Says he. Everything you know is says he.

[Jessica]

I just have to trust what he says. Yeah. This comes back to the initial thing. Like, I don't know how I can delete people from my life when someone in his life is. Will always be there.

[Esther]

If I may, if these people have really become your friends and they are your circle and some of them at least, are part of your support system wherever they are strewn across the globe, regardless of his being married or not meeting someone, you're going to hear my bias now. And we didn't X amount of weeks asking them to basically cut off. It's not delete, it's cut off. Contact with the people of your life is a bold ask and one that I'm not sure I would suggest you trust on what basis.

[Jessica]

He feels threatened.

[Esther]

Well, I suppose that may be a feeling he has to address. But to ask that from someone you just met, and he probably asked it to you after a few weeks. I like you, but I need you to rearrange the pieces a little bit, do some editing for me, take away some of the parts that make me uncomfortable. And I mean, I'm curious about his request, but I'm particularly curious about your willingness to even consider it.

[Jessica]

Well, up until, like, recently, I have refused. I have kind of pushed back and said, no, that's not something I would do. But then of course, it would be a recurring thing and a recurring problem that would come up.

[Esther]

But you know what? If you do it, that will leave you very much in a vulnerable and threatened position.

[Jessica]

Yeah, that's how I feel too, Esther.

[Esther]

Okay, so I think I've answered your question. I mean, I didn't answer your question the way you asked it to me, but I think I'm being quite transparent about how I'm registering the choice you're about to make.

[Jessica]

Yeah, no, I hear you, Esther.

[Esther]

And I know that you may come home tonight and he will give you the lulling reassurances again which your heart is aching to hear. Your heart doesn't want to hear what I'm saying.

[Jessica]

Yeah, thank you.

[Esther]

Understand, but you'll have to, if you want to follow that, that's. That's your choice, too. But you will have to remember what you were willing to accept and to do. And how could you?

[Jessica]

Yeah, I still. Yeah, I still haven't deleted these numbers because I feel once I do, I will be in a very vulnerable situation.

[Esther]

Of course, he will isolate you from the rest of the world. He will make you dependent on him, too. And I would say to you, you didn't run away from South Africa and travel the globe to create yourself another cage.

[Jessica]

Yeah, that's a very good point.

[Esther]

I understand that you say, I don't want to do it alone anymore. I want someone by myself. I have complete, complete empathy for that. But this is not the same.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I don't think so either. Why do we like people that. Because I do like him. There is a lot about him that I like.

[Esther]

You can like people. You can love people. That doesn't mean you need to make a life with people. There are plenty of people we love, but we should not be partnered with them. Because at first, when someone says, I want you to delete the people that you slept with so that I can feel like I'm less number 10, and I can feel more manly and I don't have to feel like you're used goods. And we interpret that as love. He must love me so much that he wants me just for himself. I'm so moved by his vulnerability, by how hurt he would be to know that I have loved and made love to other men before him, who may, for that matter, be better lovers than him, too, on occasion. And we interpret that as an expression of love.

[Jessica]

I think that's true. I don't know if that's true. For me. I found it quite shocking when he first asked me. He expected it of me first, and then he had to ask me and I still refused. And so, yeah, I don't think it is a sign of love.

[Esther]

The fact that he doesn't think there's anything problematic with the request is a Big red light. It's preposterous. Yeah, but it's traditional. It belongs to a system. It's a system in which control provides care.

[Jessica]

Does control always provide care?

[Esther]

Necessarily? No. The idea is I will control, and in return I will provide. And in return you will stay put.

[Jessica]

Do you believe that love has a price?

[Esther]

In what sense? That's a big question. In what way? No. Meaning that that's the price to pay for being with him. No, no, I don't.

[Jessica]

Yeah, but also the family, you know, like to continue with this relationship. There's a lot of condition, but it's.

[Esther]

A big price that I think you're entering a quagmire with someone who is telling you, you know, I have the wife that I told that we can be with other partners, but I am the only one who will be with another partner because I know for a fact that she wants the baby. And so, I mean, you're being told stories, one story after another.

[Nina]

Of which.

[Esther]

You have no way of knowing what's behind and who's behind. You have a cast of characters of four people that you're about to live with for decades to come, and you have no idea who they are. Would you do that with anything else? No, it's like, what are you doing?

[Jessica]

What am I doing?

[Esther]

I'm sure there's plenty to like about him and plenty to love about him. But you're not a 22 year old woman either.

[Jessica]

Yeah, I should know better, right?

[Esther]

I mean, if the price of love, as you call it, is to be controlled, is to live under conditions.

[Nina]

Is.

[Esther]

To be lulled, and is to be presented with an entire, you know, fait accompli. That's a decision you make.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther]

Yeah. I don't often make statements like the ones I just made and I'm maybe off, but I'm also following my intuition and my decades of experience. I mean, I'm often asked, do you ever tell someone not to or to, or to not? And this is one of those times when I'm listening to this and I'm just the free bird who traveled the globe to do what she wants because she's tired of being told and who had to run as far from mom as can be to then find herself willingly entering a cage.

[Jessica]

Yeah. Now I feel like a bird in a cage.

[Esther]

That's when I'm saying, what is happening. I mean, I know what is happening. I'm tired of being alone. And he's there and he's. He shows up in beautiful ways and all of that But I would not move on to the next phase without having some clarity over who are the other birds in the cage. As you say, I have to delete and cut off from people who are essential pillars of my life to live with someone who has an entire family that I have no idea who, what, when. Excuse me.

[Jessica]

It is a bold ask.

[Esther]

Okay. How does this land on you?

[Jessica]

It's landed. It has landed as the. It's interesting because I haven't been able to speak about this to anyone because of the situation that I'm in. So it's nice to have a voice of reason and someone I can sort of project on and.

[Esther]

And you haven't been able to talk about it because what.

[Jessica]

I don't think anyone would really understand, they would judge you. Yeah, probably.

[Esther]

So there's. Now we have shame. Not just about your past, but you have shame about your present.

[Jessica]

Yeah.

[Esther]

Oh, no, do not.

[Jessica]

No.

[Esther]

Please.

[Jessica]

Yes, I said I hear you. So it's landed. What you've said. Thank you.

[Esther]

Thank you for trusting me. Good luck to you.

[Jessica]

Thank you very much. Bye.

[Producer]

This was an Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Moeller and Julian at. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Carlos]

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