Esther Calling - In Loving You, I Learned to Love Myself

Summary

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Episode Overview

Title: Esther Calling – In Loving You, I Learned to Love Myself
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Esther Perel
Podcast: Where Should We Begin?

In this deeply moving episode, Esther Perel takes a call from a listener exploring the theme of unrequited love. The caller, a Jamaican academic now living in New Zealand, shares their lifelong journey shaped by an early, intense love for a classmate—a girl who did not return their romantic feelings. With openness and vulnerability, the caller and Esther discuss the impact of this early love on the caller’s self-concept, relationships, achievements, sense of belonging—and ultimately, their journey toward self-acceptance and gratitude. The episode transcends the topic of unrequited love, evolving into a profound reflection on the transformative power of gratitude and the intricate ways relationships shape our growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of Unrequited Love

• Initial Infatuation: The caller shares their childhood infatuation with Sheriann, a brilliant classmate in Jamaica ([00:01]).
• Confession & Rejection: Confessing romantic feelings led to gentle rejection; Sheriann did not feel the same way, which the caller attributes partly to social divisions ([01:35]).
• Impact: Decades later, this early love continues to influence the caller’s emotional expectations, leading to recurring feelings of longing and a persistent sense of romantic unfulfillment ([02:36]).

2. From Rejection to Deep Friendship

• Meaningful Friendship: Despite the rejection, an enduring, influential friendship grew between the caller and Sheriann. She inspired the caller academically, lending them Harry Potter books, encouraging a love for reading, and nurturing capabilities not fostered at home ([05:13]–[05:57]).
• Impact on Growth: The caller attributes much of their academic success—including earning a PhD—to the mentorship and inspiration drawn from Sheriann ([06:05]).

3. Circumstances vs. Capabilities

• Esther helps the caller recognize the distinction between their life circumstances (growing up in state care) and their innate capabilities, helping shift the narrative from “I wasn’t capable” to “my circumstances were limiting” ([06:56]–[07:46]).

4. Unrequited Love as a Paradigm for Relationship Expectations

• Shaping Romantic Expectations: The early experience established a “touch point” for the caller—anticipating romantic rejection in adult relationships ([08:18]).
• Later Relationships: Caller describes adult experiences, primarily with men, and the journey toward self-knowledge in sexuality and agency. Not all experiences were positive, but each contributed to self-discovery ([09:10]–[11:06]).

5. Transformative Love Stories

• Key Relationships: The caller recounts meaningful relationships—a short but intense romance in Jamaica and a spiritually grounding partnership with a Maori man in New Zealand—offering experiences of deep love and belonging ([12:03]–[14:47]).
• Learning to Love: These relationships challenged and expanded the caller’s view of love and self-worth.

6. Resurfacing Memory and the Longing for Gratitude

• Re-emergence of the Past: The memory of Sheriann has resurfaced strongly in recent months, prompting a longing to express gratitude ([18:31]–[19:41]).
• The Unsent Letter: Caller reveals they’ve written many versions of a thank you letter, unable to send it but revisiting it as a source of strength during challenging times ([22:58]–[23:30]).
• "How do you hold the candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you?” ([23:33]–[24:17])

7. Transformation Through Love

• Falling in Love with Oneself: The caller recognizes that in striving to embody the traits admired in Sheriann, they transformed themselves—eventually realizing they genuinely love who they’ve become ([25:27]–[27:03]).
• Esther reframes "unrequited love":

  “In loving you, I came to love myself... Not unrequited at all...”
  (Esther Perel, [27:18])

8. Passing the Torch

• Transmitting Light: Esther suggests that if the caller cannot thank Sheriann directly, they can "transmit the torch" by becoming a light for others, as in teaching or guiding family ([28:09]–[29:11]).
• Caller as Mentor: The caller mentors students and a younger brother, feeling the reciprocal warmth of being someone else’s light ([29:11]–[30:06]).

9. Loneliness, Achievement, and Belonging

• Racial and Existential Loneliness: The caller discusses racial solitude and feeling out of place as a Black scholar in predominantly white academic circles, particularly during a prestigious conference in Cambridge ([39:28]–[41:37]).
• Pride and Solitude: Standing in historic academic halls as a descendant of slaves, the caller feels both immense pride and searing loneliness ([41:50]–[42:32]).
• Desire for Acknowledgment: Yearning for Sheriann to witness these achievements, as she symbolizes the family and community the caller wishes to honor ([43:33]–[43:54]).

10. The Power of Gratitude and Connection

• Thanking Sheriann: At Esther’s prompting, the caller thanks Sheriann movingly on-air ([44:19]):

  “Sheriann, if you are listening... thank you for everything you’ve meant to me, for just seeing me and giving me the opportunity to become who I am today.”

• Essence of the Conversation: Ultimately, the caller and Esther agree the heart of their talk is about the healing power of gratitude and acknowledgment—“saying thank you” to those who have shaped us ([49:42]–[50:30]).
• Connecting Through Gratitude: Esther observes:

  “When I thank the people who have impacted me, I know I am not alone. If they've impacted me, then even when I felt lonely, I wasn’t alone.”
  (Esther Perel, [49:59])

11. Gratitude as Healing

• The caller reflects:

  “Gratitude really opens up that portal of connection and it's healing. Ultimately, it's love.”
  ([50:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On self-transformation through love:

  “In loving her, I think I fell in love with myself... In turning myself into that person, I realized, oh, I actually like that person as well.”
  (Caller, [25:27])

• On reframing unrequited love (Esther's poetic summary):

  “In loving you, I came to love myself. And you gave me so much. Not unrequited at all.”
  (Esther Perel, [27:18])

• On loneliness and resilience:

  “You have a smile that smiles to life... You worked so hard for it and you didn’t always get the proper supports for it... sometimes there’s just no one home.”
  (Esther Perel, [31:12])

• On gratitude as antidote to loneliness:

  “In the act itself of gratitude lies the connection to another person.”
  (Esther Perel, [50:30])

• Direct thank you to Sheriann:

  “Sheriann, if you are listening... thank you for everything you’ve meant to me and... giving me the opportunity to become who I am today.”
  (Caller, [44:19])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early infatuation, confession, and rejection: [00:01]–[01:38]
• Impact of friendship; academic awakening: [05:13]–[06:05]
• Circumstances vs. capabilities: [06:56]–[07:46]
• Discussion of adult relationships & agency: [09:10]–[11:14]
• Key romantic experiences: [12:03]–[14:47]
• Resurgence of memory and longing: [18:31]–[19:41]
• The unsent letter of gratitude: [22:58]–[23:30]
• Self-love and transformation: [25:27]–[27:03]
• Reframing unrequited love: [27:18]
• Mentoring others, passing the torch: [29:11]
• Racial and existential loneliness in academia: [39:28]–[42:32]
• Caller’s on-air thank you to Sheriann: [44:19]
• Essence—gratitude and connection: [49:42]–[50:30]

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Episode Essence

This episode illustrates the resilience and power of the human spirit to turn longing and rejection into self-acceptance and generosity. What begins as a question about unrequited love becomes a meditation on gratitude, self-worth, loneliness, and the ways we carry and transmit the gifts of those who have changed our lives—whether they know it or not.

In Esther’s words:

“When I thank the people who have impacted me, I know I am not alone. If they've impacted me, then even when I felt lonely, I wasn’t alone.” ([49:59])

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For listeners:
If you have ever loved someone who couldn’t love you back; if you’ve ever wondered how your path was shaped by hidden mentors; or if you seek comfort in expressing gratitude, this episode offers hope and reframes longing into connection, transforming unrequited love into a legacy of light.

Transcript

[Caller]

Hi, Esther.

Where do I begin? Well, I think the first thing to say is that for most of my adult life, my romantic and sexual experiences have been with men. But the story I want to talk to you about is about a girl. And my question really is around unrequited love and how do you live with unrequited love? So the background to the story is that when I was young, maybe around 11, 12, I became extremely infatuated with one of my classmates and had very grown up sort of ideas about the kind of attraction I had towards her and what a possible romantic life would look like, as it turns out. However, when I took the opportunity to sort of confess all of these feelings to her, she plainly said that she didn't feel the same way about me. That rejection was not entirely unexpected given that, you know, she's from an entirely different class than I was and the social structure of the place I'm from sort of dictates, you know, romantic relationships.

And I was very aware of that.

So I'm now in my 30s, but of late and quite often she comes up in my memory and I can't seem to forget her. And she shapes a lot of what I expect emotionally in relationships. And she's a sort of silent character in my romantic life, and it leaves me with a lot of longing and unfulfilled desires. So my question really, I think, I know it's not one that can be resolved, but it's a life question for me. I think of how to live with unrequited love.

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[Esther Perel]

Entrenue is my new home on Substack. For anyone who wants love and work with more connection, confidence, imagination and playfulness, I bring to you the combination of clinical insight with cultural commentary and community dialogue. What I want to do is kick off a collective exploration of the intricacies of our relationships. At this moment, please join me on Substack where I'll be writing to you weekly, hosting live streams with other creators and for my paid subscribers, offering community discussion forums to strengthen our relationships and connections to one another. Paying members will also get ad free episodes of my podcast. Where should we begin and all of our exclusive office hours bonus episodes. I invite you to sign up and become a member, either free or paid, to my entrenue [e-mail] you first.

[Caller]

Yeah, when I listen back, it sounds a bit sad, but it's actually not a sad story from my perspective because I would say this is someone who saved my life in a way, because even though we never got to be in a relationship or got to be romantic, we were actually very good friends during high school. And she was the smartest girl in the class. I wasn't so smart.

[Esther Perel]

Where was this, by the way?

[Caller]

Oh, this is Jamaica. And we sat beside each other in class and I would copy everything she did. So how she wrote, the books she read. I mean, she was reading the Harry Potter books at the time, and my level of reading was not at that level. And she lent me the Harry Potter books, and I got into it so much, and that was the first book I ever read cover to cover. Right. So in a way, being infatuated and in love with her has kind of led me to where I am now, you know, because it gave me a lot of the sort of academic skills I needed to excel in school when those were not my natural capabilities.

[Esther Perel]

Those were not your natural capabilities or those were not your circumstances?

[Caller]

Yeah, maybe. Maybe those were not my circumstances because I actually, I grew up in. In state care, so based on that, you. You know, the expectations for my life were not ones that would have been predicted to where I am today in terms of, you know, the academic achievements I've had. Because, I mean, I've just recently completed a PhD, so. And, you know, have gone into living life as an academic, which you would not have predicted from where I started. But I think being well exposed, if.

[Esther Perel]

One looked at your capabilities, one may have predicted it. If I looked at your circumstances, one did not predict it.

[Caller]

When I got to high school, I didn't feel like I could survive there because everyone was really ahead of me academically, quite frankly. And I was a little bit behind in the class, but I don't know. I think.

[Esther Perel]

But that's because of what you were.

Capable of or because of what your life had been.

[Caller]

Maybe both. I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yeah, I don't know. But I think I want you to.

[Esther Perel]

Remember this for when we get later.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

This is a very important distinction. And you just made a distinction for her, too. No, she didn't love me in the way that I was in love with her, but she became A very good friend.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And she cared. And she didn't really reject me. She said, I love you differently now. There's a rejection in that. But it wasn't like, I don't care about you. Get out of my life.

[Caller]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

It was, I don't care about you in this way, but I care about you greatly in other ways. Yeah, but something in that experience became paradigmatic for you and expecting rejection.

[Caller]

In. In a way, yes. And I'm.

[Esther Perel]

Romantic rejection?

[Caller]

Yes. I'm not sure I'm very conscious of how it shows up, but I do know that that is a point of. It's like a touch point for me romantically.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me a little bit about your. You say I date, and my sex life, my romantic life, my love life is mostly with men. What's it been like?

[Caller]

It started a little rocky, I would say, like, I didn't know who I was. I was a little bit just afraid of accepting this truth about myself. But as I've grown older and a little bit mature.

[Esther Perel]

How old were you then?

[Caller]

I was around 20, I think, so a bit of a late bloomer. My first experience was not one I would have chosen for myself, to be honest. But it is what it is. So I've come to acceptance in a way.

[Esther Perel]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. We're gonna slow it down a second, okay?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

My first experience wasn't what I would have chosen for myself. Means it was different from what I had imagined or means it wasn't a good one.

[Caller]

It was not a good one in that I was pursued by someone who I was not attracted to. And I would say the person took advantage of me. But if I were to go back and choose, I would not have chosen to be with that person. It was just that at the time, I suppose that person maybe had an insight about me that I didn't have, and they were able to pick up on this, I guess, attraction and take advantage of it. Not in a bad way, but just that they were able to connect with me sexually. But it wasn't, you know, I would not have chosen to be sexual with this person. It's just that the circumstances at the time contrived to deliver that outcome.

[Esther Perel]

Does that carry a mark for you? Does that leave with. Has that left you with a scar?

[Caller]

No, I don't think so. Because at the end of the day, I still had agency and choice, and I chose. In that moment, I just wish I had a little bit more insight about myself so I could say, actually, that's not what I like or that's not who I like. But I only came to that realization long after the event. But nowadays I'm a little more conscious of what I like, what I don't like, who I like, who I don't like. So I have a little bit more agency over my romantic choices. I don't think I would have learned that had I not gone through the original experience of having nothing, Being able to choose.

[Esther Perel]

Any love stories.

[Caller]

Yeah, so the most salient one is someone who I met in Jamaica, but he was migrating in like six months. But for that, six months before he left, we were in a little bit of a whirlwind of a romance. And yeah, that was very life changing for me because it was a relationship in which I got to show how much I could love someone and give myself to someone. And yeah, to this day, we still talk. We have a really strong connection, even though we are at two different ends of the globe. Sometimes we go for months without talking, but when we pick up the phone and call each other, it's like no time has passed. So, you know, that's been a beautiful love story. Yeah. And then when I came to New Zealand, I met someone who is Mori. And that relationship was deeply spiritual. And I think by nature I'm a deeply spiritual person. And so we connected on this sort of spiritual level and, you know, we were able to be each other's grounding, I guess, you know, because I was studying at the time and things had gotten kind of crazy with how I was just slavishly focused on school. And he was able to bring me back to reality and say, hey, there. There are other things other than the piece of paper you're trying to earn. I know it's important you needed to build the new life you want to live, but there are other things that we can enjoy in life. So he took me a lot to his ancestral lands and we went hiking a lot. And I got to really see the beauty of New Zealand, which I would not have seen otherwise because I was so laser focused on finishing my studies because I felt that, you know, that was my ticket to a better life. So, yeah, so I was really grateful for that period of my life, for that romance that opened me up to what being in love can do for you in terms of just, yeah, making your life a little bit more better than when you're on your own.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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And when did the memory of this girl kind of re emerge for you with the kind of intensity that it has now?

[Caller]

I guess, yeah, in the last six months, maybe.

[Esther Perel]

And what happened? What brought this up for you? I mean, not that you had forgotten it. Yes, no, but it really, there was a resurgence of the memory, of the intensity of it, of the feeling that accompanied it, of the sense that what you call unrequited love is. It's one sided, it's I will love someone, they will not love me back. And that has become a kind of expectations. You anticipate this. It's not who she is, it's what you experienced with her and how that has now become a frame for you. I anticipate not being loved in return. I anticipate not having that sense of belonging.

[Caller]

I don't know exactly what brought it up, but I just remember thinking, I wonder what it would be like to just tell her thank you for what she's meant to my life. And yeah, I just googled her and saw that, you know, she's married now and probably has kids and I, and I like, you know, this is a conversation I'll probably never be able to have. And I guess just the idea that that will never happen, you know, the fact that something is out of reach, I guess makes you want it more.

[Esther Perel]

I don't know what will never happen.

[Caller]

Yeah, that kind of, that opportunity to say thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Why not? Why not?

[Caller]

I don't know. She's difficult to reach, I guess. And I guess we're just different people now. I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

I did this podcast with this woman and it occurred to me that a number of times in my life, when things started out painful, they actually turned into important lessons or transitions or opportunities. And it occurred to me that you were the first with whom I had actually experienced this. And you know, we don't often write to people we met decades before, but I had this thought that I wanted to say thank you to you. I hope things are good. And I just wanted you to know. My first book I read with you. And it's not just that I read them, it's that you gave them to me. It's that you gave me a grounding, a recognition, an opportunity, an ability to distinguish between circumstances and capabilities. I don't know why you were a Warden of the state. But I don't even know if she knew it. But I have a sense that there was. This was a school, a special school that you had been invited to attend.

[Caller]

No, it was just the ordinary high school.

[Esther Perel]

Ordinary high school area.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. But not everyone didn't have a home, right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And so in some way, when you think of her, she gave you a version of. A small version of home.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And I just wanted to drop you a few lines because we don't always thank the people on our trajectory who were very significant and don't even know they were. What would it be like if you had a variation of this letter? When you hear it out loud, what's it like?

[Caller]

Yeah, no, I think I've written this letter several times.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller]

But just have not been able to find her contact to send it. Yeah. But this is a letter I. I think about a lot, and I carry it with me. It's like a place I go to in difficult times because, as you say, it was a sort of base for me in my life.

[Esther Perel]

Say more.

[Caller]

Just that experience, as you say, of being acknowledged, of being seen, gave me so much, and I'm so grateful to her and just often want to say that. I often say that actually, you know, to myself. You know, sometimes when I'm in a really good season, I'll just, you know, whisper to myself, thank you, Even though she can't hear it. And I think my thoughts around this question of unrequited love is how do you hold that candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you?

[Esther Perel]

Hmm. What you think?

[Caller]

I don't know. This is. It's a puzzle, I think, because people. People move through different phases in life, and she might be at a phase of her life. We're even hearing that she might not even be able to receive it. I don't know. But this is just one of my thoughts about this whole idea of unrequited love. There are so many different permutations of people who we love, but who don't know that we love them. And there are many lives that you could have lived with many different people who come across your path. And my thoughts have just been about wondering what that path would have been like, you know, because it's one of many paths that could have happened, but it didn't happen. Right.

[Esther Perel]

You feel deserving of it.

[Caller]

Of late, I have become more convinced that I absolutely am. I never felt that way, but as I've gotten more connected with myself, I know that without a shadow of a doubt, it's absolutely what I deserve. And I think, in a way, there's a sort of conceit about this whole process of loving someone who will never love me back. Because in that process of loving her, I think I sort of fell in love with myself. I don't know how to explain that, but I made myself into a person she would have wanted to be with because I saw the qualities that she admired and so forth. And in turning myself into that person, I realized, oh, I actually like that person as well. That I. That I have become and am becoming each day. And that's where the whole idea of me feeling that I deserve it has come from. In that when I look at how I have transformed, you know, I sometimes stop and say, you know, wow, you're actually quite wonderful. And to be able to say that to myself is a bit of a gift, I think.

[Esther Perel]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Caller]

Of having not been in love with the person I desire. But through that whole process, I became that person in a way.

[Esther Perel]

So do we still want to call it unrequited love or does it change title?

[Caller]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

In loving you, I came to love myself. And you gave me so much. Not unrequited at all. You gave me so much. And I knew how to take it and I knew how to transform it into something beautiful.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Because the version I ended up with was one that was transformative for me.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. She became a muse for you. She became a catalyst for you. And for all you know, she may not remember at all, or she may.

Never have thought it was such a.

Big deal, or she actually may have thought that she was doing something really good. And that the giver changes the life of the receiver, but the receiver also changes the life of the giver. And one way sometimes that people get to say thank you, even if they don't get to meet the person, is by what they pass on is their own transmission. It's by them becoming a light for someone else and kind of privately knowing where it comes from. That the torch they carry didn't start with them, that someone else one day shed light on them. Do you have a receiver at this moment in your life?

[Caller]

Yes, I do. I think my students, because I teach and my younger brother, I try to be a light for him.

[Esther Perel]

And is he a receiver?

[Caller]

Oh, very much so.

[Esther Perel]

And do you feel that there is a kind of a mirror experience going on?

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely. I think so. And I think, well, the beauty of it is that, you know, he tells me often that I am his light. So it's beautiful to have that acknowledgement. So it's not so requited from that perspective. I'm able to see in real time the impact of my giving and it's quite gratifying.

[Esther Perel]

And she may have done the same.

[Caller]

And you know, actually I forgot about something. Tell me when you finish high school, those two years where you sort of do like. It's like that period before university, those two years, like college years. So for my two years we call it sixth form in Jamaica, I went to a different sixth form. It was a little bit more prestigious. It was like an all boys boarding school with a long tradition of educating prime ministers and business leaders. I mean this is where all of the sort of upper crust of Jamaican boys would go to. Somehow I ended up there.

[Esther Perel]

No, not somehow. Not somehow. You know, that's why I ask you if you feel deserving. You didn't just somehow. Nobody gets somehow into those places.

[Caller]

That's true.

[Esther Perel]

Own it. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. You have a smile that smiles to life.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

You worked so hard for it and you didn't always get the proper supports for it. And I don't know anything about your story, but I can sense that you did a lot of this alone. But you knew when to take the book and the fruit and the gifts from people who were giving to you who may or may not even have known your story either. You know, there's often someone in the classroom who doesn't go home when the school day ends. And nobody knows that they're not going home and that they don't go to a ready made dinner and that et cetera, et cetera. And they hide in the midst and they want to feel that they belong and they, they, they copy, they copy what they see so that people think that they're one of them.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But in fact, sometimes they live in a car, sometimes they live in the warden of the state. Sometimes there's just no one home. Tell me.

[Caller]

Yeah, no, I, I was just. Yeah. Thinking of that journey. Yeah, it was pretty lonely. There was a lot of help along the way and a lot of people who poured into me. And it still feels a little lonely now because I, I'm in a, in a bit of a career transition, let's say. So now I, I need to draw more from that journey that you know and remind myself that hey, you've, you've been through this before. This is just another version of it at a higher level. So you're not alone and you're gonna be fine. You just need to remember that that you're loved and that you have everything you need for the rest of your journey.

[Producer/Host]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

Who is shedding a light on you right now?

[Caller]

I don't think I have anyone right now, which is why I'm drawing so much on my inner resources and which is maybe why the memory is coming up so much.

[Esther Perel]

You know, the last time I remember that acute sense of loneliness brought me back to seeing myself as this young boy in class.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller]

The last time I think now is, I would say it's every day now. So I have a meditation practice and a journaling practice. So I begin my day with that because I know the road is lonely. Right. So that's my, my self care in a way. And yeah, this memory I think is part of what's. It's part of the care as well because as you say, it allows me to remember, you know, the journey. It allows me to remember that I've survived this before and it allows me to know I have some tools in my toolkit. I'm not so alone and I'm not so yeah, I'm not as undeserving as I, as I sometimes think I am.

[Esther Perel]

Same one.

[Caller]

Yeah. So now in this new sort of academic career that I'm trying to establish, it can be really, really difficult, you know, and because you are trying to basically create new knowledge and contribute to academic conversations, if you're a young academic, you know, you're competing with people who are already well established so it can feel a little intimidating. So yes, I have to sort of really have that inner check with myself to remind myself that hey, I've come this far and I have what it takes.

[Esther Perel]

I assume, I hope not, maybe mistakenly, but I assume there are not many Jamaicans in New Zealand.

[Caller]

No.

[Esther Perel]

So how is that?

[Caller]

It's really difficult and especially because it's so far away. So it's not like you can jump on a plane and go for a.

[Esther Perel]

Visit and culturally different.

[Caller]

I mean I'm okay with the culture because it's suits a lot of My personality, you know, it's one of the reasons I left Jamaica. I feel more at home here, so that's not an issue for me. But I do know the value of community, and I don't have that so much here. But I do have friends, African friends. They're in different parts of the country. But we do try to get together every now and again, and that helps. So I'm grateful for that.

[Esther Perel]

Because otherwise there's racial loneliness as well.

[Caller]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And most times, I'm the only black person in a room, you know? And you. You feel it. You.

[Esther Perel]

Of course you feel it. Yeah, of course you feel it.

[Caller]

Yeah. And even just last two months ago, I went to Cambridge University for a conference, and. Yeah, I just felt so alone, like, when I was presenting some of my research. And in the morning before I went to present, I had to go in the bathroom and, like, really catch myself because I started to cry because of just how lonely I felt. Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Esther Perel]

It's okay. It's okay. I'm right here.

[Caller]

Yeah, it's. It's been a long journey. I mean, yeah, that. That conference was at the Royal Society. This is where Isaac Newton wrote his first discoveries. And, you know, standing in that place, as a black man, as a descendant of slaves, I was. Yeah, just. Yeah. Just so proud.

[Esther Perel]

Proud.

[Caller]

Yes, I was proud.

[Esther Perel]

Proud and lonely.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it's one of the things I. I wish, you know, was that I. I wish she could see me because that journey was because of her. You know, I just really want to say thank you. I really just want to say thank you because I would not have gotten there if she had not been a friend to me.

[Esther Perel]

You will find a way to thank her. You're a researcher. You can write to her and find her address. Do you have family?

[Caller]

Yes, Yes, I do.

[Esther Perel]

But she has come to represent the family to whom you want to show who you've become.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

She's the stand in.

[Caller]

In a way, yes.

[Esther Perel]

She's the representative.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think so.

[Esther Perel]

How do you call her?

[Caller]

Her name is Sheriann.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe she's listening. You're welcome to thank her right here, right now.

[Caller]

Yeah. Well, yeah. Sherrianne, if you are listening. Yeah. I just want to say thank you for everything you've meant to me and. Yeah. For just seeing me and giving me the opportunity to become who I am today. So thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think she will understand immediately?

[Caller]

I'm not sure, because I don't know where her life is at now. And I suppose after marriage and kids, you're a different person, you know, But I hope she understands.

[Esther Perel]

Did she know where you were going at the end of school?

[Caller]

So. Right. So the story I was going to tell was the. That when I left the high school, we were together and went to this more prestigious college. We entered a public speaking competition, and our two schools were competing and we were actually on opposite sides. And I. I mean, normally she wins all of these competitions, but I. It turns out that at that time, I won. And she came up to me after and just said how much I deserve to win. She said, after I heard your speech, I just so blown away, and I just want you to know how proud I am of you. So I think she knew. Yeah, she knew because that competition opened up a lot of doors. You know, I ended up going to compete in the regional competition. That was my first time traveling abroad and just opened my eyes to, you know, more of the world. So I think, yeah, at that competition, she really sort of acknowledged, you know, that, yeah, I really see great things for you. And she really did say how proud she was that I. That I won that competition, even though she would have liked to have won it.

[Esther Perel]

Two separate things. Two separate things. And when you think of her, when you bring her with you to Cambridge, did you feel slightly less alone? Did you feel wrapped in her love for you? Not in the unrequited, in the love, in the pride, in the support, in the gifting, in the giving?

[Caller]

No. I don't know what. Cambridge did something to me in that I. I've never been afraid of loneliness. In fact, I always embrace it. But being in Cambridge just, I don't know, made it so unbearable, in a way.

[Esther Perel]

May I ask you something?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Was there ever a sense from you that as you reach for more status, achievement, dignity, deserving respect, accomplishment, academic recognition, all of it, that in fact, you would one day feel less lonely compared to how you had sometimes felt as a child and as a young boy, and that, in fact, the more you were reaching and achieving, the opposite was actually happening.

[Caller]

Well, you know, I always knew that the life of wisdom and knowledge is a lonely life, because when you pursue knowledge, you are seeing the world in ways that others don't, and you have information and depth of insight that others don't have. So I always sort of knew it was a lonely road. I just didn't know how lonely it is. Actually.

[Esther Perel]

If we go back to your original question, I don't know if the story was a story of unrequited love or if the story was give me the new title.

[Caller]

I don't know what the new title is.

[Esther Perel]

What do you think we talked about? What is really the essence of what we talked about?

[Caller]

The only thing I can think of is saying thank you. It sounds simple, but having the opportunity to acknowledge another, to acknowledge what people mean to you and how they've impacted your life.

[Esther Perel]

And I will add another piece to it if you allow me. When I thank the people who have impacted me, I know I am not alone. If they've impacted me, then I know that even when I felt lonely, I wasn't alone. Does that land on you?

[Caller]

Yes, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

And one of the reasons why thanking her became so important at the moment when I felt so lonely is because in the end, act itself of gratitude lies the connection to another person. You're saying yes with your head.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You're saying yes to what?

[Caller]

Yeah, that, you know, gratitude really opens up that portal of connection and it's healing. Ultimately, it's love. I mean, you know.

[Producer/Host]

Yep.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Thank you for joining me in this conversation.

[Caller]

It was my pleasure. Thank you for allowing me the space to process this with you.

[Esther Perel]

Let me know if the thank you reaches her.

[Caller]

I will.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

All right.

[Caller]

All right. Bye. Bye.

[Esther Perel]

Goodbye.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Producer/Host]

This was an estair calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise were part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.