Esther Calling - Stuck Between My Daughter and My Husband

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode: Esther Calling - Stuck Between My Daughter and My Husband

Release Date: April 28, 2025

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Esther Calling - Stuck Between My Daughter and My Husband delves into the intricate dynamics of a family struggling with persistent conflicts between a father and his teenage daughter. Hosted by the renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel, this episode offers a profound exploration of familial relationships, communication barriers, and the emotional toll of unresolved tensions.

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Introduction to the Family's Struggles

The episode begins with the Mother expressing her distress over the strained relationship between her husband and their 16-year-old daughter. She describes frequent arguments that often erupt during family dinners, leaving her feeling helpless and stuck in the middle.

Mother [00:01]: "I have been married to my husband for 20 years and we have two daughters... I feel very stuck in the middle and I'm hoping you can help me."

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Understanding the Conflict Dynamics

Esther Perel seeks to understand the recurring nature of the conflicts. The Father outlines two primary scenarios that perpetuate the tension:

1. Initiated by the Father: After returning home stressed from politics or work, the father criticizes the daughter about chores or grades, leading to defensiveness and mutual anger.

   Father [03:11]: "...my husband has been reading online about politics or stewing about something at work, and he comes in already a little bit angry... he will just start sort of laying into her about that first."

2. Initiated by the Daughter: When the daughter is having a bad day, an offhand comment from the father can trigger intense accusations like racism or misunderstanding, escalating into yelling matches.

   Father [05:13]: "The second scenario... she will get over the top, out of all proportion, angry with him, and say that he's... you always do this to me."

Esther probes further into whether the Father actively participates or remains reactive during these conflicts.

Esther Perel [02:37]: "When they both get angry with you, that's a moment when they ally together."

The Father acknowledges his tendency to freeze and remain neutral, sometimes defending either party, which further complicates the situation.

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Past Attempts and Family Therapy

The Mother shares their previous experiences with family therapy, highlighting the challenges they faced in keeping all family members engaged.

Father [19:16]: "We have being hired somebody to help us outside of the program as well."

Despite initial openness, the family's attempts at therapy often resulted in exacerbated tensions, leading to a reluctance to continue seeking professional help.

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Exploring Family Backgrounds

Esther delves into the family histories of both parents to understand underlying influences on their current dynamics.

Father [10:10]: "I grew up in the Midwest with a family that did not fight in front of each other... my husband, his mother was probably undiagnosed bipolar and an alcoholic."

The contrast between the Father's calm upbringing and the chaotic environment experienced by the Husband sheds light on their differing responses to stress and conflict.

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Role of the Older Daughter as a Mediator

The Father introduces the role of their older daughter, who often steps in as a mediator between her father and younger sister. This dynamic places undue responsibility on her, especially as their younger daughter becomes more entrenched in conflicts.

Father [34:02]: "She was trying to keep the peace when we were all together... making sure that he had someone listening to him."

Esther identifies this as a classic case of triangulation, where a third party is involuntarily drawn into the conflict, exacerbating tensions and preventing direct resolution between the primary parties.

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Strategies for Breaking the Cycle

Esther offers practical strategies aimed at disrupting the entrenched patterns of interaction:

1. Reframing Interactions: Encouraging the Father to write a letter to his husband to address their disconnection, emphasizing the need to reconnect independently of the parent-child conflicts.

   Esther Perel [26:26]: "If you put all of this on paper to him, on paper or in a letter... here's what I imagine is a different reading of what's been going on here."

2. Altering Dinner Dynamics: Suggesting a restructuring of family mealtime to reduce friction, such as having separate meals or introducing neutral activities like listening to music to create a calmer environment.

   Esther Perel [26:51]: "I think the best thing is to reframe in my mind that it's not my job to make the two of them be friends."

3. Encouraging Direct Communication: Advising the Father to avoid defending either party during conflicts, thereby preventing the perpetuation of the triangle and allowing for more honest and direct communication.

   Esther Perel [43:07]: "And you're not keeping any peace at all. Every time somebody talks to you about how they feel, you're trying to defend the other."

4. Promoting Individual Accountability: Highlighting the importance of each family member taking responsibility for their role in the conflicts, thereby fostering a healthier relational environment.

   Esther Perel [23:24]: "And that space in between, as my friend and colleague Hedy Schleifer says, is currently polluted. And so the relationship is the space."

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Final Insights and Resolution

Throughout the session, Esther emphasizes the necessity for the Father and Husband to rebuild their connection independently, thereby relieving the older daughter from her mediating role. By initiating sincere efforts to reconnect, the primary parties can set a healthier example for their children and pave the way for reduced tensions.

Father [45:31]: "I think writing the letter that you suggested. I'm excited about that idea."

In closing, the Father acknowledges the value of Esther's insights and commits to implementing the proposed strategies to untangle the complex familial ties.

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Conclusion

This episode of Where Should We Begin? offers a compelling look into the challenges of modern family dynamics, especially when longstanding patterns of communication hinder resolution. Esther Perel masterfully guides the family toward recognizing and altering their interaction paradigms, providing listeners with valuable lessons on fostering healthier relationships within their own lives.

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Notable Quotes

• Mother [00:01]: "I feel very stuck in the middle and I'm hoping you can help me find some words or some methods."

• Father [05:13]: "My daughter will take accountability. But... there's always a but."

• Esther Perel [23:24]: "Each person is responsible to tend to that Space so that it doesn't get polluted."

• Father [45:31]: "I think writing the letter that you suggested. I'm excited about that idea."

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing an in-depth understanding of the family's struggles and the therapeutic guidance offered by Esther Perel. By highlighting key discussions and insights, it serves as a comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Mother]

I have been married to my husband for 20 years and we have two daughters, the younger of which is now 16 years old and she and her father don't get along. They don't respect each other. I think they love each other, but they don't understand each other and they don't seem to be working towards understanding each other. I get stuck in in these situations where the two of them are angry with each other, often at the dinner table and fighting and I don't know how to help and I'm hoping that you can help me find some words or some methods or some way to communicate with them. When I try to talk to them about this, they both get angry with me and they don't seem to want to repair the situation and I feel very stuck in the middle and I'm hoping you can help me.

[Sponsor]

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[Esther Perel]

Yes, that's.

[Father]

That's about right.

[Esther Perel]

And when they both get angry with you, that's a moment when they ally together.

[Father]

No, no, unfortunately, that was too optimistic on my part. I wish.

[Esther Perel]

Give me, if you can, a frequent example, because I don't assume that every time it's different, it's probably much of the same. Over and over.

[Father]

It seems like there are so two things that happen over and over again. Two different things depending on which one of them is the instigator of the conversation. And usually it's because one or the other of them is already in a bad mood. And we come together from our day at the dinner table. And one scenario is that my husband has been reading online about politics or stewing about something at work, and he comes in already a little bit angry and he finds something that he's unhappy about with our daughter. Her room isn't clean, she didn't do the dishes when she said she would, her grades aren't good, etc. Etc. And he will just start sort of laying into her about that first. Not in a mean way, but just pointing it out. And then she gets very defensive, and then the two of them get angry with each other. So that's one scenario.

[Esther Perel]

And then. No, no, because you're part of that scenario, too. And then I.

[Father]

So I find that I have sort of a freeze response where I sit and watch it escalate. And if I try to step in, it's usually in the defense of one or the other. And I have a really hard time choosing how to do that because I feel that my husband isn't being fair to my daughter yet. He has a point about, you know, that she hasn't cleaned her room or she hasn't done the dishes. And if I come in defense of my daughter, it immediately turns to comments about my parenting or my not letting him parent. And eventually he will say, I can't win, and he'll just leave the table. So, yeah, I'm just looking for words.

[Esther Perel]

Or that's one. And what's the second one?

[Father]

The second scenario will be that my daughter will have had a bad day and be sensitive about something, and my husband is someone who likes to tell stories and push boundaries, and he will make a comment that offends her, and she will get over the top, out of all proportion, angry with him, and say that he's. She'll say something caustic like, you're racist, or you're, you know, you don't understand anything, or, you know, you always do this to me. And then she'll start yelling and screaming at him, and he will be greatly offended and usually leave or defend himself and then leave.

[Esther Perel]

And. Do you ever talk about yourself? Do you have a day? Do you have a mood? Are you an active protagonist in this triangle? Besides trying to be a peacemaker, there.

[Father]

Are plenty of times that we have regular conversations at the table when everyone is in a good mood and everyone is willing to. I don't know. I guess my role when things are not going well is to try to change the subject or say something calming or give an anecdote about my day. Usually too late, when nobody wants to hear it because they're already angry.

[Esther Perel]

They're already in there. Yeah. And when you talk with each of them alone, is it just a blame fest? Each one blaming the other for being impossible or is there any accountability whatsoever that each one can take?

[Father]

I find when I talk to my daughter, she will take accountability. But. There's always a but. He's the adult. He's my father. He should understand this. He should. So she will say, yes, I understand that was uncalled for. But. There's always a but. But you have to admit that he was out of line or but you have to, you know, this or that or but you should be defending me because you're my mother and you aren't. And then from my husband, he'll go away and think about it. And there was a time when he'd then come back and have a conversation with my daughter and they would talk it out and things would be okay in the end. And a couple years ago that ended when she turned 14, 13, or he stopped trying and she doesn't go to him. So when I go and try to talk about it, often it will turn to comments on my parenting. You're too easy on her. You always take her side. You know, we should be a team, things like that.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so tell me, just for me to get a bit more context, what kind of family environment did you grow up in? And what experience do you have with bickering and escalations and high reactivity at the dinner table? And then the same question will apply to him. Your daughters, I know, because they're living it. Okay, but yeah, what was it like in each of your own homes growing up? Because some of this we have learned. We have actually watched other people do. We have had other people do to us, we have had people do to each other. And there is the manifest rules of how you argue, how you fight, how low you go, how off topic you can be, how little accountability you take. And then there is also the underlying issues of loyalty, betrayal, lack of support, rejection, the dynamics that lay underneath this. You should be with me. You know, everybody is actually wanting you to be their fauner. Fawn for me, please me. So what's been your experience and what do you know about his? And obviously you didn't have it with your other child. So you also know that this is a triangle. It's contextual. It doesn't say specific things about who you are or who he is or who she is. Because this is a dynamic, this is relationally created by people. But they can do other things because they have had other relationships with their other children. That's always very good to know, right?

[Father]

That's true. So my husband and I come from very different family situations. I grew up in the Midwest with a family that did not fight in front of each other. If we had a disagreement, of course we did occasionally, but often disagreements would happen one on one behind a closed door. So if my parents had an issue with something that was going on, they would go into their room and talk about it and then come out with a decision. I feel like I had a fairly calm, happy upbringing. When I think about it, I feel like I was loved and that they were also very academic. So everything was intellectualized in my household and it wasn't played out in emotion as much. My husband, his mother was probably undiagnosed bipolar and an alcoholic. And they had a lot of sort of turmoil in their family growing up. And I think he had a. I think maybe he. There were a lot higher emotions on a daily basis at his house than there were at mine, for sure.

[Esther Perel]

Of the whole range or conflictual emotions?

[Father]

I think the whole range. I think he had a difficult teenage time. You know, he didn't get along with his parents for a time when he was a teenager. His mother passed away recently and she was capable of huge love and huge. Everything was over the top with her. But also, you know, a lot of the other side of that coin, too.

[Esther Perel]

Was his rebelliousness towards his parents as a teenager somewhat similar to that of your daughter?

[Father]

Well, not in the way that it looks. I think the two of them are very similar personality wise. He reacted to the chaos in his household by staying away from home a lot. He got a job early on so that he had his own money. He was in some ways taking care of his family at that age and kind of doing what he wanted. And my daughter just has chosen very different ways to express herself and hobbies. And she's my first. Maybe this is typical, maybe it's not, but my older daughter sort of has similar interests to my husband and I. And my younger daughter has gone as far away from things that we understand as possible. She. We both work with our hands and love to camp and be outdoors. And she wants to become a nail tech and she does acrylic nails for her friends. And she's very rooted in the city we live in and has a big group of friends. I don't know if she's just chosen things that. It's been a stretch for me to understand why she's chosen the things she has, but she's amazing and brilliant.

[Esther Perel]

Are you curious about it? Yes. You are always. Yeah. More curious than reactive.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

By the way, nails and acrylic is hands, you know.

[Father]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, it is. Work with the hands.

[Father]

Yeah, it is. It's still a trade that way.

[Esther Perel]

Different from dirt and camping and nuts, but it is no less handy.

[Father]

That's true.

[Esther Perel]

And how much are they able to be reflective about what happens? I notice that this is something that happens between us. Whenever he does this, I do that. Or whenever she does this, I do that. What really gets to me is I understand that this is my challenge. Is there any reflective ability or is it all pure reaction in the moment?

[Father]

It's pure reaction and I think there is a little bit of reflection. I think my husband thinks about it, but I don't get to hear what he's thinking about it usually.

[Esther Perel]

And you want help for you or you think that you could be even more effective with them and you want actually to magically make these two people put a stop to their spat.

[Father]

I want your magic, Astaire. I guess I'm unhappy with my own reaction in the moment because I feel like they both walk away feeling like I've betrayed them and it would be amazing if they were to get along better or if there was something I could do when I saw the argument coming or say, you know, that could diffuse that.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Sponsor]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

The years to come.

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[Esther Perel]

I have a bunch of thoughts that come, but I do want to ask, has any of you ever said let's go see a family therapist?

[Father]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And so just so I know how much my field has helped you or not.

[Father]

Yeah, well, I'm worried because we're opening a whole new conversation, but so my daughter was really sick. She's better now, but for the last few years she was anorexic and went through treatment programs and we basically I refed her at home and she's doing much better now. But as part of that process she saw a therapist. I saw a therapist and there were meetings that we were supposed to all do together and my husband does not like therapy and my daughter does not like therapy and it was difficult to get us all into a room together and then it often sort of would blow up in the room and they would leave feeling unsafe. So it means my husband is not open to family Therapy was part of the treatment programs. At first it was part of the treatment programs and then we had hired somebody to help Us outside of the program as well.

[Esther Perel]

And was it ever helpful? Was there anything you would say this thing, we didn't pursue it or we didn't stick to it, but it actually was a very good idea.

[Father]

I don't think we ever got far enough that we had a plan to an action. I felt like it was helpful to talk about the things openly, even when it was not in the healthiest way. And so I felt like it was helpful, but I don't think either of the other two of them felt that way.

[Esther Perel]

And may I ask why you continue to have dinner, the three of you together?

[Father]

It is sort of a core value of mine, and I live in hope, you know, that just in the way that my daughter has gotten better from her illness, I was hoping that their relationship would heal. I know that those things don't necessarily happen just on their own, but I was hoping just by being together every day, in whatever way, we can be there. There's more of a chance that everybody's going to get along.

[Esther Perel]

And is that proving right?

[Father]

I think very slowly it may be. But when they. So it's the. The anger comes less frequently, but when it happens, it feels just as intense. Like that whatever's underneath the surface, it still just definitely hasn't healed. I just feel like they're learning. Maybe it's that my daughter's getting older, or I feel like they're learning to be in a room together without fighting.

[Esther Perel]

Who do you think has the most latitude and flexibility for change?

[Father]

They're so similar.

[Esther Perel]

I know, because this kind of dynamic that you described, escalations like that, are always symmetric. When you have two people who do fight, fight, they are typically similar. If you have one fight and one flight, you get the difference. If you had two flights, it's similar. So when you have two escalating people who go at each other, but it is not uncommon to just say, they're so similar. But I still will ask which one has, in your mind, more flexibility, even if it's 3%?

[Father]

I think my daughter has more flexibility. But there's part of me that feels like she's the kid, like she shouldn't have to be the one to heal the problem. Does that make sense?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. But that's because you think the problem is him, whereas the relationship is not him or her. The relationship is the space in between. And that space in between, as my friend and colleague Hedy Schleifer says, is currently polluted. And so the relationship is that space. And each person is responsible to tend to that Space so that it doesn't get polluted.

[Father]

That makes sense.

[Esther Perel]

And so when you are more flexible, it's not because you should be dealing with the problem, and the problem is the father. It's that you have what we call enlightened self interest. It's in her interest to have this space not be so polluted, to have these arguments, these spats, not be so in her belly to the point where she can't put anything else in because it takes up all the space. That's just one metaphor. This is not what anorexia is, but this is one dynamic that is happening. So if I said to her, are you curious about certain things you could potentially do that could change the dynamic between you and your dad, what would she say?

[Father]

I think she'd be open to that.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And then if I said, I understand you're very creative. You're doing nails and you're a painter, basically, you're a painter on people's hands and you adorn people's bodies. And that is very meticulous and very fine. It's fine motor. So you have precision. And that precision is not just in your hands. That precision is part of the personality that you have. And from that place, I would like to suggest to you certain things that are rather counterintuitive, but they have the power to turn the whole dynamic around. Because a dance between two people is a bunch of successive moves. If you change one move, all the others must adapt. That's really how intricately interwoven pieces of an escalation are. If there's one thing you don't do that you typically do, or say it creates a space for a whole different thing.

[Father]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

But the same thing will apply to you. You're asking actually for me to help you do what you've already been doing, which, you know, doesn't really work, and you want to do a better job at what doesn't work.

[Father]

So I'm asking the wrong question, you know.

[Esther Perel]

No, it's not the wrong question. It's that it's very difficult for us to give up when something doesn't work. We don't instantly say, I need to try something else. We first say, I need to try harder. We all have. For some reason, we all often are inclined to that, and we're going to try harder at the very thing that we already know isn't working. So I have to resist the temptation of doing that with you. You know, there's a lot of different situations. First of all is to say after a day that is Very bad. The next day you just say, I think we're better off today not eating together. Why would we do that? I'll eat half an hour with you, and then I'll eat half an hour with the other. And I think we'll all have a nice time and then see what happens.

[Father]

Okay?

[Esther Perel]

See if they say, great idea, or if they say, no, no, no, no, we must be at the table together. And then you say, well, then you should have dinner together because I'm going to go and have dinner with a friend.

[Father]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

This is a bad show. It's a bad TV program, and I'm not interested. Yeah, you know, it's like I am not interested. I don't see why I should be subjected to this on a regular basis. Not angry. Just simply do your thing, but don't involve me.

[Father]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Rather than putting yourself at the heart of the matter and thinking that you are the only one who can stop this madness, step out of it. See what happens. I listen. You're going to just collect information?

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not saying this is the answer to anything, but it will. You have to, in some way find 10 new moves. Okay, so you're the only one who's here. So I'm going to talk about your moves. Maybe at some point you put good music. You just say, I think we should all listen to music. Soothing the nervous system. It's food for the soul. Let's listen to music. What would you like to listen to? What would you like to listen to? Each of us. Pick a piece of music. We should be better off at listening than at speaking, because speaking, we don't do a great job. But I think what this house could really learn is a different quality of listening. We could listen to poetry. We could listen. I wouldn't suggest listening to politics, since that puts him in a bad mood. Or I wouldn't suggest listening necessarily to spoken word unless it's artistic. Spoken word, that's another one. But break the configuration. Shuffle. This is rigid. This is predictable. This is narrow. And everybody seems to be falling into the trap every time. I mean, one could write the script. He says this, she says that. That makes him do this, that makes her do that. Then he walks away. Then she's all, look at this. You can' Even talk to him. Look at what he does. He can't handle anything. I mean, it's. It's. And by the way, it's not original. That script goes in many, many homes.

[Father]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

And instead of saying, you know, what can I do to make you People love each other. You just say, you won't be the first dad and daughter who don't get along in your adolescence. In fact, you know that very well. You had the same relationship with your parents. And then you can joke with her and you can say, you know, by the time his mother died, she was capable of deep love. I mean, you may have to wait 50 years, which means you bring some humor into this, because you get scared. You get really, really scared. And you think, I have to rescue these people from their shadow.

[Father]

Maybe that's not true.

[Esther Perel]

I don't know enough to make a declaration about this I just met, but sometimes I think it's worth checking out.

[Father]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

But I know that when we have that fear, or that maybe she will plunge again into the anorexia, or that she will have recidivism or. You know that. So you're holding this very fragile equilibrium, making sure that nothing bad happens, and it actually doesn't really rest on you.

[Father]

Sounds good. I don't want it to rest on me. But it does feel like that.

[Esther Perel]

Your body tells me I carry this. You know, it's like they hurl all kinds of things at each other, and I'm the only one who realizes what they just said. Now that you can say, too. Yeah, you're saying horrible stuff at each other. And you punch each other as if you whip cardboard. And while you are not feeling anything because you're busy being angry, I feel every word hitting my belly, and I feel everything a punch in my gut because I'm actually the one experiencing what you're doing. You know, if it was physical, somebody would say, aye, that hurts. But because it's words, one doesn't even notice it. One just says, let me punch you back the next thing. One day, if you really need to go and ump this a little bit is, you videotape them. You don't say a word. You get up, you take your phone, and you just tape them.

[Father]

They would hate that.

[Esther Perel]

They would hate that. But something that would be somebody saying, I'm your witness. I just want you to see what this looks like. And then you send it to them alone, separately, and you just say, I thought you may want to know what this is like.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

They may not like it, but it may be effective. You don't have to say anything. You just film it. And then you go to the side and you just film it. And then you send it to them, and then you just say, you know, sometimes we don't really see ourselves from the outside in this is what this looks like. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[Sponsor]

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[Esther Perel]

What happens when your other daughter enters the picture?

[Father]

So she is a mediator. She has always. She's taken to the next level.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, God.

[Father]

I mean, I don't mean professionally. I just mean that, like she takes on that role very nicely. And when she left for college, there was part of me that was like, I am worried that this family is gonna fall apart when she's not here. And I realize that that's a horrible thing to think because all of that weight of those feelings are on my older child. She shouldn't have to play that role, you know, and take on that responsibility.

[Esther Perel]

And is she the mediator between her sister and her dad or is she actually the mediator between her mom and her dad?

[Father]

Between her sister and her dad?

[Esther Perel]

I would say that is the official picture. I know that. But how much is there actually? How much does your younger daughter actually express things that you don't say but do think A lot?

[Father]

For sure. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So the mediation is actually, I mean, what you're saying is that your daughters are in between your relationship between you and him.

[Father]

Yeah, that's true.

[Esther Perel]

Which if you wanted that to shift, you go to him and you say, our daughters have spent A lot of time being between you and I, that's the bold move.

[Father]

Yeah. I think that's what I have to do. That feels real.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me more.

[Father]

I think my husband and I, we've sort of allowed our relationship to become two separate relationships that happen to touch. We get along really well. And he is very independent and likes to do his own thing, and I'm independent and like to do my own thing. And so there are. There are large periods of time where he comes home from work, he goes out to the shop, you know, his man cave in the back. And I sort of take care of things in the house. And then we touch at dinner time, and then we don't really talk. He goes to bed before I do, or vice versa. And we just don't get deep about things anymore. It's almost like we have a friendship and we live together. You know, we also have a good sexual relationship, but that's not the same as emotionally connecting.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Father]

The way we don't. So all of those emotions. You're making me feel like maybe the truth of it is that all of those emotions are then played out through our kids instead of in front of each other.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, that is what I am implying. Yes.

[Father]

I don't like that.

[Esther Perel]

And that you actually connect through them, even if it's negative. And that you come close when you argue about them, and that they have a job, which is to make sure to bring attention onto them so that you don't have to have the. So it deflects it from the two of you, but at the same time, it brings you to at least discuss something that you jointly share. And it is one of the few things at this moment that you jointly share. So what would happen, you think, if you put all of this on paper to him, on paper or in a letter, and you just said, I've been thinking, and you seem to be a thinking group of people, and he's thoughtful as well. And what would happen if you say, here's what I imagine is a different reading of what's been going on here, and if we really want to help our kids, it's you and I who need to come back together.

[Father]

I like that. I can do that.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think he would be receptive, too?

[Father]

I do. I think that would be a good way to approach it. It's actually been a way that we have done things in the past when we, you know, feel very emotional about something, or there's a complicated problem between us, one of us will write it down and send it beautiful and then.

[Esther Perel]

Potentially even go and camp together and spend a few days alone and make it a deal that you don't talk about her, that you will find other ways to connect with each other that don't involve talking about her. And she's the glue.

[Father]

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

[Esther Perel]

And she may resist not being the glue. Just so you know, kids get used to being the glue, and so they sometimes, potentially on purpose, put themselves in the center because they don't really trust that their parents will find a way to each other if they don't bring them there. So you may need to reassure her that you can find your way to each other and she can go and be an adolescent.

[Father]

That's very insightful. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Like it.

[Esther Perel]

And then if your daughter stepped out of the middle, what takes its place? What would happen? For example, if you went to the shop, when he's in the shop and just sat there and whatever. What if you had dinner with her first and then you went and brought dinner in his shop and you just ate a picnic together in the shop? I mean, it's about changing the social, the emotional and the physical configurations. It's not in that order, but it involves all levels, because you've made a beautiful distinction. We can be very sexual and we are intimate there, but there is a level of connection between the two of you, level of emotional threading that kind of has leaked out of the relationship. And we are brought together in our worry or our arguments with our daughter. If I asked your older daughter, why did she become a mediator, what would she say? Because her sister wasn't always a teenager, so this goes back longer.

[Father]

Yeah. I don't know if I can answer that honestly. I mean, I can give you my opinion about what I see.

[Esther Perel]

That's all we have.

[Father]

But I think that my husband has been struggling for a while and unhappy. And I think I'm trying to reframe it now with the information that you've given me. But I think I tended to get annoyed with him because it looked to me like a lot of him centering himself. And I was struggling to take care of my younger daughter or struggling with other things. And so I think she felt like she needed to step in and take care of him and keep him as part of the family, make sure he felt like somebody understood him, and so.

[Esther Perel]

They have a strong alliance together.

[Father]

They do. They do. Yeah. I would say that.

[Esther Perel]

So she would lift him up so that he wouldn't get too Down. Too depressed, Too passive?

[Father]

I think so in small ways, but I think that that's sort of what she would do. She was also trying to keep the peace when we were all together, so she would make sure that he had someone listening to him when. When maybe the other two of us were rolling our eyes or just not engaged.

[Esther Perel]

So you and your young one have an alliance. Except that she says the things that you think but don't say.

[Father]

And worse. I wouldn't say that the things that she says necessarily represent me, but she definitely is not. Not afraid to call him out in ways that I don't think are necessary. But maybe they are necessary, and she's doing it for me. I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

So if I hear what you say is instead of trying to be the conciliatory, it may be that I need to take on me that which is mine so that it doesn't filter onto her. Because part of why her intensity is so high is because she's expressing both her feelings and mine. She's doing the job of two.

[Father]

Yeah. I think I've been trying to keep the peace at all costs, and it's been causing the opposite.

[Esther Perel]

And you're not keeping any peace at all. Every time somebody talks to you about how they feel, you're trying to defend the other.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So that doesn't. That's a triangulation.

[Father]

Doesn't work.

[Esther Perel]

No. I say I'm so angry at them, and you say, but you need to understand them. I need you to understand why I'm angry at them. And you can understand them where they're angry at me. But if every time you take the position of the absent third, you're fostering the split.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And especially with her, she will then end up expressing the spoken and unspoken intensity of both people's feelings, yours and hers.

[Father]

So I need to be more present with my piece of the conversation.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, if you roll your eyes, you have more than just that. It's true your older daughter is able to be compassionate with him. And you are annoyed sometimes. Yes, of course, not always. And there is. There's more to the story than just this. We're doing a little, you know, microsurgery here, but it's all triangular, is what I'm saying is. And there is what people are picking up on their feelings, but also on the unspoken and disavowed feelings of the other, which they then bring into their own psyche. And in the end, each of the three of you feels very alone. Your husband feels alone because he feels that all of them, except for his older daughter. But the other two are in collusion. That you don't support him, that you always defend her. She knows that you always defend him. But on some level she knows that she is also speaking for you. The older one wonders, can I have a life away from the family? Because she, like you, worries that they're going to fall apart without my skillful mediation. And you think you're trying to make these people be nicer with each other and have more grace when in fact they are each thinking that it's the other person who is doing it all to them.

[Father]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So how do you start extricating?

[Father]

I think writing the letter that you suggested. I'm excited about that idea. We already do some creative movement around dinner time. But I think just reframing in my mind that it's not my job to make the two of them be friends and to refind that connection with my husband so that we can model for my daughter but also for ourselves have that emotional connection and maybe we'll be more on the same page. Anyway, about a lot of these things that become an issue.

[Esther Perel]

Is that a good place to start? I think so.

[Father]

I think so. Thank you for helping me untangle all of that.

[Sponsor]

This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerparel. Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian At Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Pro Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.