Esther (4:16)

I have, yeah.

Esther Perel (4:18)

You have good ones?

Esther (4:20)

Yes.

Esther Perel (4:20)

Good. So you have good family ties, you are in a good relationship with yourself and you know, in general to put in the effort for things that you pursue. So there's a lot of elements to your optimism. The exhausted part. Besides, I have not found the person and there seems to be a diminishing return. I'm not clear on what is your experience and maybe I can ask you to tell me a little bit more about that.

Esther (4:53)

So I have been in two serious relationships and I would say that they were generally good relationships, but they were not the right person for me. Besides that, I have tried dating and mostly just use the dating apps because I think that's probably the easiest way. And I haven't really found the kinds of people on that app that I feel I would be compatible with in the long term. And then I've also gone about it in the way of, you know, asking friends and even family members if they could introduce me to somebody who they think I might get along with. I haven't been successful. I mean, nobody's introduced me to anybody through, you know, that way. And then I've also tried to be really open minded with the people that I already know, friends that I have, even, you know, former co workers, just people in my social circle. And I haven't really been able to find the Right. Person in that way either. So I'm just not really sure where to look. And I guess that's what I'm finding a little bit exhausting at this point.

Esther Perel (6:07)

I just want to add one other category.

Esther (6:09)

Sure.

Esther Perel (6:09)

That that is the. The answer, but just because there is reaching to my social circle, reaching to my professional circle, going on the app, and then there is serendipity.

Esther (6:23)

Absolutely. And that's the optimistic part. I think.

Esther Perel (6:25)

You're sitting on many planes, Right. Because you travel.

Esther (6:29)

I do.

Esther Perel (6:30)

You sit on planes. You sit in airports. You are in queues. You know, the places where many times we used to meet when we didn't have our head in our phones and we actually looked up and saw who was behind and in front of us. So I'm just curious, are you at ease with happenstance, spontaneity, serendipity?

Esther (6:51)

Absolutely. I would love that. I think that's kind of the romantic part of me that wants to meet somebody on an airplane or in a queue, as you said. I just don't know that I can rely on that. And so it feels like I need to be more intentional about it. And that's what I'm finding challenging is like, how much effort do I put into this?

Esther Perel (7:17)

But I think you said it very well in your question. I want to have a robust life, culturally, professionally, socially, and from that place. I also want to meet someone for the next project of my life. I don't want that to be the defining feature of my identity, of my sense of self worth. But I also don't want to personalize the story, as in, I am feeling defeated. And so I'm going to deny the need. I'm going to make this no longer something that I pursue because I haven't been successful at it. I want to remain open to it, but I don't want my entire day and my entire structure of my life to be organized around, I have a date. I need to go look at the app, I need to cancel everything else because somebody has just told me we have a date, Then they cancel, then I have no plans, Then I feel like I've put my whole dating life ahead of everything else because it takes priority, because you never know. And that's the piece of effort that becomes not rewarding.

Esther (8:31)

Absolutely.

Esther Perel (8:32)

But I don't know enough about how you're doing it. So, you know, to me, the effort is a level of openness. The effort is that people date not by putting their life on hold. As in, I leave my life to go date, and I create A distance between the two. And then when the date doesn't work out, then I feel like there's a void. The way that the effort becomes much more manageable is that you do your life, and if you happen to have a date, you invite the date into your life.

Esther (9:08)

Agreed.

Esther Perel (9:09)

But you may already be doing that.

Esther (9:11)

So I actually don't find the dating part, as in like, finding a date challenging. I usually am able to go on a first date, and I usually have a really nice first date and even maybe a nice second date. But then it's like, there's a difference in the effort that I'm willing to put in versus the person that I'm dating. And that's where the disconnect happens.

Esther Perel (9:36)

Tell me more.

Esther (9:37)

Sure. So I met somebody who really seemed to be aligned with me in so many different ways. And we had a great first date. We talked about some serious things because I wanted to be really intentional with where I was putting my time and my effort. And I wanted to make sure this person was. I mean, I didn't want to make it, like, not fun, but I wanted to make sure that we were working towards a similar goal. And it seemed that we were. And then we went on a second date, and that was lovely, and we had a great time. And again, building up more of a serious type of a framework and an understanding with each other. And then because of my lifestyle and also this person's lifestyle, you know, I was traveling, he was traveling, and we tried to stay in touch, and I was willing to put in that extra effort. And we had spoken about how much time and effort are we willing to put in when we're not physically together? Like. And I just realized that I was putting in a lot more effort than he was. And after a while, unfortunately, he just kind of ghosted me. And that's happened a few times. And I'm just like, why is this happening?

Esther Perel (10:50)

What do you do when that happens?

Esther (10:53)

So in this case, what happened was basically he just stopped texting me, and there was a regular cadence of communication. We had a time difference. And so I would wake up in the morning and I would have a text from him, and I would message him back and expect that he would get back to me at a time that was more appropriate for him. And that was going on for, like, a few weeks. And again, we had planned to see each other when we were in the same country again. And when we were planning the details of that next meetup, he just stopped replying to me. And I wasn't really sure what had happened, Because I couldn't see anything in the conversation that would lead to him feeling a different way about me.

Esther Perel (11:43)

Did you ask him?

Esther (11:45)

I did. I did ask him. Is everything okay? Did something change? Never got a response.

Esther Perel (11:55)

In very simple terms, it's beyond upsetting because you begin to question yourself. You begin to question your sense of reality. Did I miss something? Was the whole thing an illusion? You know, Is that what happens between people these days? We just toss each other away for whatever it's worth and it's not going to change what you feel. But I can't tell you how often I hear it. It's between date four and five. Things seem to be going actually quite well. It's not. Things are just dragging. And the interesting thing is I hear it from everybody. From he, she, they. I wish I had advice for this, but I don't. I mean, not that thing specifically. I think it's much more of a cultural thing and a large societal phenomenon than it is anything specific to do with you questioning what's missing in me or what have I done or what did I not say, or what should I have said differently? This kind of micro analysis of every move is also off because it makes us personalize social behaviors that have become acceptable that I would like to encourage you not to do. It's like it feels bad enough. You don't have to feel bad about yourself.

Esther (13:17)

Yeah, and I'm trying not to feel bad about myself. But then it's hard to know what to do differently the next time because you know what.

Esther Perel (13:28)

Because if you feel bad about yourself, it gives you a weird sense of agency that there's actually something that you can do differently. And I'm not sure that there is much that you necessarily want to do differently in the dating online. But what you may want to do differently is create new situations that increase the possibility of meeting people. I'll tell you one I like a lot, but. And I've said this in other places, but those who have followed it, I've liked what they've told me. So that's why I like it. It's about bringing people together. You with two or three other friends, each of you bring three, four people that you don't know. And you do it every two weeks. And you begin to increase the number of people that become a part of. Some of them may become part of your social circle. Some of them may just stay for the night. But the next time you ask those people to bring two or three people with them, you do it. Potluck you don't have to cook for 30 people, but the idea is to kind of proliferate new connections from within, but to the outer circle. It's curated so there is a choice element to it and there is chance in that there is enough unknown that you can be surprised.

Esther (14:52)

I like that. That's a good idea. I'll try it.

Esther Perel (14:59)

We have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this go.

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Esther (16:22)

Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime.

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Esther (16:26)

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Esther (16:55)

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Esther Perel (17:41)

This week I'm releasing a new digital course. It's the Esterparel Desire Bundle. It has two parts, Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. But it addresses the many sexual dilemmas, erotic stalemates, gridlocks that patients and people that I meet on the podcast come to me with and I wanted to give you a way of taking me home rather than just coming into my office. There's a special promotion code that you will find in the show notes and if you want to go directly to the course, it's@esthereparell.com what are things you enjoy doing in your leisure time?

Esther (18:35)

I actually enjoy quite a few things. So I am really into dancing. So I go to dance class a few times a week. What can belly dancing actually? So I really enjoy that. I love going to the beach and doing anything kind of water sports related. So snorkeling, swimming, surfing, paddle boarding, anything that gets me out in the water. I love going to art galleries and museums, anything kind of creative.

Esther Perel (19:14)

So the reason I ask is because I'm looking. I'm looking for opportunities, right? So I have two. There's two sets of questions in my mind. One is the setting and the other one is the conversation. So set and setting, where does one meet people? And I always think when I think about dating these days, how I integrate it into your life so that you don't go to look for the dates, but you have situations that may be propitious for dating. Belly dancing is probably not the dance where you may meet, probably not partners unless they come to watch you. But that may follow. But there may be other kinds of dancing that are more partner dancing that you may enjoy to do too.

Esther (20:02)

True.

Esther Perel (20:03)

You like art, you like going to galleries. Sometimes it's about going to a talk in the gallery, but that's not, you know, the problem is people are not talking to the neighbor standing next to them. However, there is a way to bring 20, 30 people, 15 people, whatever, to a gallery, even with somebody or to someone's home. And to create a salon, you just create situations where people come together. Because we want curation. And what the app does for us is it's meant to curate. But that doesn't mean we have to relinquish all our opportunities for curation. But I have another question. Tell me more about the conversation. When you said we were going more serious. We were trying to align our values. What exactly was serious? What is the values? What's the deeper layer?

Esther (20:58)

We spoke about our longer term goals for ourselves and for the lifestyles that we imagine for ourselves and how a partner would fit into that, and our hopes for family and the way that we would live and prioritize different things in our lives. So for me, you know, being able to travel a lot is important. That's something that I let people know upfront that, like, this is a really big part of my identity and a goal that I have for the future. Is that something that's in alignment with you? I don't personally really know if I want to have biological children. It's not like a main goal for me. So having a discussion with the other person to see, like, is that really important for you? What kind of a parent would you like to be? Like, lots of different, deeper questions that are not just like, I find you attractive. Do you want to, you know, go on a date with me?

Esther Perel (22:07)

What model of relationship did you grow up with? How did your parents meet?

Esther (22:11)

My parents actually met through my aunt. So my mom's sister was friends with my dad and she made the introduction. And interestingly enough, they were both considered to be old for the time, as in, they were both in their 30s and they had sort of resigned the fact that, like, they didn't think that they were gonna find a partner. And then they met each other and they both had very strong opinions about things. And apparently their first conversation was an argument. And they both really enjoyed, you know, being able to have a very spirited conversation with the other person. And they were like, I think, I think this person could be the one. So that's how they met.

Esther Perel (22:57)

Did they leave a traditional relationship? Did they become Westernized? What models of relationship did they embrace?

Esther (23:08)

So I would say not traditional by any means, but not necessarily Western either, just in general. Both my parents have had pretty international upbringings as well. My grandfather was a diplomat, My other grandfather was in politics. So they both kind of have lived in a lot of different places and have a very sort of multifaceted identity of their own. And then together they raised me and my sister in a pretty non traditional way as well. They both are feminists. They instilled a lot of, you know, messages of like, empowerment and independence to both me and my sister. And that's, that's like the foundation that I'm coming from. So also, I think, you know, meeting somebody who has very traditional gender ideas is, is off putting for me.

Esther Perel (24:02)

How often, how long do you stay in communication before you meet in person? Well, I mean, how quickly do you figure all of this out and how.

Esther (24:12)

So I typically like to speak to somebody on the phone before I meet them in person because I feel like you can have a great conversation over text, but you may not actually be able to carry a conversation. So I like to speak to them on the phone usually within like a few days. Again, I don't like to waste my time or their time. So a phone conversation and then if that goes well, then I'd like to meet them sooner rather than later.

Esther Perel (24:42)

Was that always your premise or did that augment with years?

Esther (24:51)

So I was in two very serious relationships for like one was for five years and the other one was for two years. So pretty much my entire 20s I was in relationships. So I didn't really have a lot of dating experience side of that until like my early 30s. And by that time I just feel like people are a lot more pragmatic and, you know, don't want to waste each other's time.

Esther Perel (25:16)

So do you think that that approach is conducive or it kind of makes you be so focused on the price that you end up not seeing what's in front of you.

Esther (25:30)

So I think like my intention when I'm meeting somebody is not necessarily to see whether they're the one, but to see if we have some kind of connection or spark and maybe they could be a friend. So I think I go into the first meeting quite open minded. But then when we meet and if we do seem to be connecting, then I want to see more about the long term expectations and are we compatible in that way and then proceed from there.

Esther Perel (26:00)

You know, I ask you because sometimes when we are so focused and clear and instrumental in a way, right. I don't want to waste my time. I don't want to waste your time. It changes what we are looking at, it changes our perception and it changes what we value and what we pick up. Interestingly, when you meet someone casually, spontaneously, unplanned, not premeditated via meaning, because I know why I go to an app. But if I happen to just meet someone, you know, at the bakery, I'm not at all thinking about not wasting someone's time.

Esther (26:44)

True.

Esther Perel (26:44)

I'm enjoying the surprise. And I'm wondering to what extent does this change our experience? There's something that kind of closes off the story sometimes. I think it's unavoidable. I'm not saying this is something you do, nor that it's something you must change. But I do have a sense that if I meet you and we start talking and I enjoy it, and then we extend it from three minutes to 10 and to 20 and then we say let's continue this or where are you off to? I was just going about here. You want to join me or none of us are thinking about I don't want to waste your time. Are you my type? Do you at least answer the basic questions? Do I answer your basic questions? There's something. It's more fun, it's more open ended and I don't know how one creates that in the virtual world, that sense of, you know, anticipation. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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Esther Perel (28:39)

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Esther (30:04)

In my experiences so far, I actually really enjoy just the pure curiosity of like, who is this person that I'm going to meet? What are they like? And I've met many characters in my day and I'm happy to Keep them around as friends. But I think what's also annoying and what has been the challenge for me so far is that I'm not usually the one putting in a ton of effort at the beginning. It's usually somebody else who seems to be taking more of the initiative with me up until day four, like you said. And then I start.

Esther Perel (30:39)

Do you bring it up with them?

Esther (30:41)

I have actually. I've kind of said that there's a pattern and they're like, that's so weird. I don't know why that happened. Like, you know what I mean? Like, completely just like making it seem like it could never be them. Like they could never do that. And then lo and behold.

Esther Perel (30:56)

But that's the very person who you just talked about. He did that too.

Esther (30:59)

Absolutely. We talked about all of these you're talking about.

Esther Perel (31:02)

And then he did it.

Esther (31:03)

Absolutely. We talked about all these things that, you know, we've disliked in our dating experiences before. And that was one of the things that we had in common of when there seems to be mutual interest and then somebody just ghosts and, you know, he did the same thing. It's not an isolated incident. Like, this has happened to me like three times. It was the last one that made me, you know, write into your show and be like, let me get a professional's opinion on this. But it wasn't the only time.

Esther Perel (31:36)

I haven't said anything that you don't know yet, though. I wish I had an original thought about it that you may not have heard yet. But I have a feeling that we're hearing the same thing over and over. The only thing I may have said is that when you wrote to him and you knew he had suddenly gone blackout instead of is everything okay? I mean, that may be the first one, is everything okay? And the second one is we said we wouldn't do this. Let's just be. Let's just give each other the courtesy. It's totally fine. Let's just not dump each other like that. I don't know if you would get an answer, but at least you have kind of closed the loop.

Esther (32:20)

Yeah, I think that is the struggle because the reason that I haven't sent the follow up message, I think the way you phrased it is really good. Like we said we wouldn't do this. But the reason why I haven't sent a follow up after I haven't gotten the response, you know, from are you okay? Is because it does feel a little bit embarrassing. Like, it feels like, I don't know what the right word Would be.

Esther Perel (32:44)

But, yeah, like, you're crawling.

Esther (32:46)

Yeah. And so that's why I haven't. But then it also means that there's no accountability for that behavior.

Esther Perel (32:53)

That's right. So this is the thing. You don't want to crawl, you don't want to beg, and you don't want to blame, because then they shut up. And so it's this very fine thing. But because of how you described. We talked about it. We discussed how it's happened to us. We discussed the things that we don't like in the system. We discussed the things we appreciate in the system. You have a reference, and the reference is, it's too bad, because we really talked about it and we both seem to dislike similar behavior. Why fall into this right now? I get the message, but I would appreciate you conveying it to me in a way that is civil, that is caring, that is kind. Kind is probably the word. More than caring. That's it. I think we can do better. We may never see each other again, but we can do better. This is a call to humanity. This is not a call to bring it to me and you. This is a call of the society we want to live in, you know, afterwards. Why create a situation that's going to make us go to therapy to discuss this?

Esther (34:05)

Exactly.

Esther Perel (34:08)

You know, and then it becomes a problem to bring to my therapist rather than, this is a societal issue in which something is off and we should not let this happen. You know, we are screaming for a lot of different ideals. Let's scream for the ideal of civility and kindness and maturity. It's not a good feeling to walk around knowing that you treat people poorly so you feel better. You will learn to say, no, not interested. Moving on.

Esther (34:41)

I feel like right now I am like, I'm burnt out with the apps. I don't want to do them anymore. Is there also a part of me that needs to, like, be okay with the possibility of just, like, never finding somebody?

Esther Perel (34:59)

It goes from finding to never finding. No. Life can have twists and turns in every direction. And one of the special things about life today is that people meet partners at various stages of their lives in all kinds of unforeseen circumstances. The story is much less linear than it used to be. You met somebody, you married them, then you had sex with them, then you had babies with them, et cetera, et cetera. This is a bit of an older story, but it still is the story in the majority of the world. This is a. We're in a different reality. You can start at 25. And you can start at 55 and marry for the first time and have a family in ways that you never had, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't think of it as yay, nay, hopeful, hopeless. I don't. But I think it's harsh. It's because you go back and forth between, you know, where am I at, how much do I put this as the focus? That's why I keep saying it's an important piece and you remain open to it, but you don't leave your life in order to go date totally. You integrate the dating into your life. That is clear because that's the most important piece of the sustainability. Otherwise, what you're describing, I get burned out. I get off for a few months. I don't. Then I feel like I should start again. Then I go back, put the profile back in, review the profile. I mean that whole. I'm not surprised to start with the sentence I'm optimistic but also exhausted because it's exhausting. And not just to you. It's exhausting and at the same time it's the most extraordinary curation that has ever happened. It's a lot of different things. All I can say is don't just stay focused on that. Create as many other touch points because you actually don't know where that person will and that meeting will take place. You know, with this person. I can imagine a story of life. A life story, not just a love story.

Esther (37:20)

Okay, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Sponsor (37:29)

This was an Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerstaireparel.com where should we Begin with Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise. Were part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller and Julian Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jacksol Tis the season for jolly holidays and also the season for long travel days, chilly weather and a revolving door of cold and flu bugs. Nature Sunshine can help you and your immune system stay present for the holidays for more than 50 years. Nature Sunshine has intentionally crafted supplements and natural products to support your gut health, immune system, metabolism and so much more. Like their innovative Chlorophyll stick packs, their probiotic 11, or their colostrum supplement, all rich in broad based immune enhancers. This holiday season, don't miss out on the best deals of the year@naturesunshine.com.

Esther (39:07)

Support.

Sponsor (39:08)

For the show comes from Ocean Spray. Friendsgiving is all about good people, good vibes and good food. Enjoy some easy going company and some easy appetizers and refreshments with that delectable cranberry flavor that just hits different this time of year. You can try a Cranberry Cream Cheese Dip, turkey and cranberry sliders, or even Cranberry Glazed Wings. And you can round out your meal with an Ocean Spray Juice Spiced mocktail. Head to your local store to buy your Ocean Spray cranberry products for the best friendsgiving.