Friendship - My Reliable Gift

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel — Episode Summary: "Friendship - My Reliable Gift"

Release Date: August 11, 2025
Podcast Network: Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Friendship - My Reliable Gift," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel delves into the intricate dynamics of a long-term friendship between two men grappling with personal growth, cultural expectations, and the evolving nature of their bond. This session unpacks the challenges they face in maintaining closeness amidst individual pursuits and differing familial backgrounds.

---

Background of the Friendship

The two friends, whom we'll refer to as Friend 1 and Friend 2, share a deep-rooted history that traces back to their preschool days. Their families, both South Asian immigrants, were among the few in their small Alabama town, fostering an early and profound connection.

• Friend 1: "We met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined." [01:37]
• Friend 2: "Neither of us had really been prioritizing the friendship anymore. I think in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger." [02:03]

Their friendship experienced intermittent phases of closeness and distance, often reflecting the oscillation of their personal lives and career paths.

---

Cultural and Familial Influences

A significant portion of their discussion centers around the impact of their immigrant backgrounds on their personal identities and their friendship.

• Friend 1: "My parents are from India. His parents are from Bangladesh. My parents came to America and they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization." [07:55]

• Friend 2: "My dad actually came to the States undocumented to New York... And so he came to Atlanta with really just like $500 in his pocket." [07:20]

These diverse yet similar backgrounds created a unique bond but also introduced complexities in how they navigated their familial responsibilities and cultural expectations.

---

Challenges in Communication and Intimacy

As the years progressed, both friends found it increasingly difficult to maintain the depth of their early connection. Their differing approaches to handling personal struggles and family pressures led to unspoken tensions.

• Friend 2: "I used to... when Osama bin Laden was killed, people were like, oh, yeah, sorry to hear about your uncle. Really intense Islamophobia growing up." [09:43]

• Friend 1: "I didn't grow up. We didn't talk about anything. So I didn't know." [09:53]

These experiences fostered a sense of isolation and misunderstanding between them, as each grappled with their own insecurities and external pressures.

---

Personal Growth vs. Relationship Maintenance

A core conflict arises from Friend 1's relentless pursuit of personal achievements and Friend 2's desire for deeper emotional connections. This dichotomy strains their friendship as their priorities diverge.

• Friend 1: "I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's taken precedence over the people in my life or even my own joy." [31:08]

• Friend 2: "I've tried to push my family and it's just so hard." [18:37]

Esther Perel highlights how Friend 1's focus on self-development inadvertently leads to emotional distancing, while Friend 2 feels neglected and struggles with balancing personal growth and maintaining their bond.

---

Cultural Norms and Masculinity

The men discuss societal expectations of masculinity and how these norms inhibit their ability to express vulnerability within their friendship.

• Friend 2: "We were these two male best friends. It was just so homophobic in that area that, like, even just saying things like talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just like, taboo." [33:22]

• Friend 1: "Being freaking men?" [52:50]

Perel points out that the ingrained belief in self-reliance and the stigma around emotional expression among men contribute to their struggles in articulating their feelings and needs.

---

Resolution and Commitment to Rituals

Towards the end of the session, inspired by Perel's guidance, the friends decide to implement regular rituals to rekindle and sustain their friendship. They agree to meet every eight weeks for activities they both enjoy, aiming to create a dependable foundation despite their busy lives.

• Esther Perel: "Let's have a ritual. We meet every eight weeks." [58:36]

• Friend 1: "A reliable gift. I like that." [59:39]

This agreement symbolizes their commitment to prioritize their relationship, providing a structured approach to maintaining their deep bond.

---

Insights and Conclusions

Esther Perel adeptly navigates the conversation, emphasizing the importance of intentionality in friendships. She underscores that relationships require active effort, especially when individual goals and external pressures threaten to erode the connection. By addressing cultural barriers and societal norms, Perel facilitates a transformative dialogue that allows the friends to acknowledge their vulnerabilities and reaffirm their commitment to each other.

Notable Quotes:

• Esther Perel: "Friendship is the most free choice relationship... So it has something that demands equity." [02:35]

• Friend 2: "I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to provide or create in order to feel like you can justify this friendship." [51:19]

• Esther Perel: "This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins, their immigrant backgrounds. This is a piece in every friendship. Where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond?" [41:13]

---

Conclusion

"Friendship - My Reliable Gift" offers a profound exploration of how personal growth, cultural backgrounds, and societal expectations intersect within close relationships. Through vulnerability and structured commitment, the friends navigate their challenges, highlighting the delicate balance between self-development and maintaining meaningful connections.

---

For more episodes and insights into relationships and personal dynamics, tune into "Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel" available on major podcast platforms.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Support for this show comes from Strawberry Me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job or are you stuck in one you've outgrown or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying, but are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from Strawberry Me help you get unstuck Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Unstuck to claim.

[Friend 1]

A special offer avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app download today.

[Friend 2]

It's one of those things where it's like, ah, yeah, you know, we both say like, we're best friends, but like, are we?

[Esther Perel]

Do you have a best friend? And what does best friend mean to you? And is your best friend your oldest friend? Or is your best friend the one with whom you share the most today, who hasn't had to ask themselves, if someone is my friend, what does that friendship mean? Has that friendship outlived itself?

[Friend 2]

Neither of us had really been prioritizing the friendship anymore. I think in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger.

[Friend 1]

So we met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined at.

[Friend 2]

A pretty subconscious level. So much of our identities and our ego is actually weirdly intertwined and wrapped up with like seeing the other, appraising the other in some way.

[Esther Perel]

Friendship is the most free choice relationship. It's a relationship that is mutual, reciprocal, and it's very difficult to be the friend of someone for whom we are not the friend. So it has something that demands equity.

[Friend 1]

There's just tensions that exist between us two and we're both kind of strong personalities and there's a little bit of competitive spirit that comes from that. I mean, it really is like a brotherly relationship in that way, there's just been kind of a drifting apartment so long.

[Friend 2]

I've always thought of him as my best friend. I think only maybe in the past year or two, I've really started to question that.

[Esther Perel]

Everybody has questioned their friendships at some point in their lives, and I wanted to explore that unique relationship called my best friend. I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is, do we share a passion? Or how has this passion now become more of a competition? What is that friction that we both experience? So there is no major divergent narrative here. It's not like you think our story is one thing and you think that the story is something else. So part of us being here is the conversations you haven't had, the conversations you have in your head and the ones that may emerge that you have no idea about.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's going to be a while.

[Esther Perel]

And we have time.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I think there's a lot of stuff. We've sort of scratched the surface a little bit to go deeper, but we haven't really gone. We haven't really gone deep enough. We haven't really spent time in the deep end.

[Friend 2]

Nope.

[Friend 1]

And a part of it is because we're now in different cities, I think. And, like, we used to spend so much time together where it was easy to really understand and intuitively know where the other person was at. And we were going through life together.

[Esther Perel]

Can you share a little bit about the history?

[Friend 1]

Yeah, definitely. So we went to preschool together, which is where we met and our families met. And from what they say and from our memories back then, we were best friends in preschool. And then we actually didn't see each other for about a decade. Fate sort of brought us back together. We were working in the same place. I recognized his face. Yeah.

[Friend 2]

I remember being like, oh, that guy looks familiar.

[Esther Perel]

Families knew each other, too.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. It was kind of crazy. So his dad ran a restaurant in the community. It was like, the only Indian restaurant. And my parents made the website for it. And so we would go to the restaurant all the time. It was my favorite restaurant growing up. And our parents would just sort of, like, chat about each other. Just checking in. How's he doing? How am I doing? I actually think in this style of South Asian parenting and talking about kids is like a pretty competitive style of communication where you go to school.

[Friend 2]

He's been doing this.

[Friend 1]

What are you doing in sports? What are you doing? Academics. All these different.

[Esther Perel]

They don't just tell stories, they brag.

[Friend 1]

There's always a little bit of bragging involved.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, for sure.

[Esther Perel]

Their parents would compare notes and tell each other what each child is doing, and they would report that to their kids. So that when 10 years later, they met again, they kind of were updated. Then they met for a few years. They were in different schools, but very tight. And then they parted again during college years, and they have had a kind of an accordion relationship where they go in and out of each other's life physically while always remaining deeply connected emotionally.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I mean, when we met again, I had never come across anybody in my life until that point that I felt more similar to. We grew up in a pretty small town where most people sort of simple minded, simple life with goals and what they're trying to do, what gave them joy.

[Esther Perel]

How did your parents get there to that small town?

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I mean, it's not a tiny town, but it's definitely a smaller neighborhood.

[Esther Perel]

Like, when you say we share, do you include background?

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, South Asian immigrant parents from. My parents are from India. His parents are from Bangladesh. My parents came to America and they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization. That's where I was born. That's where my sister was born. And then when I was about three or four, they moved to Atlanta to work at Home Depot.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the differentiators that I always carried as well, is that my family came through a less traditional route. My dad actually came to the States undocumented to New York, actually, and he had a sibling who, you know, legally lived in Atlanta. And so she was like, oh, come here. There's a lot of trees. It's like Bangladesh. And so he came to Atlanta with really just like $500 in his pocket. He just worked really hard, you know, got married, then decided to open that restaurant. And that's kind of how we began.

[Esther Perel]

Your mom is also Bangladesh?

[Friend 2]

Yes, and my mom also no schooling beyond high school level. So my parents are just a bit more like traditional and also didn't come from, like, an educated path. And so that was, I think, like a differentiator as well. And I felt that also as well, growing up.

[Esther Perel]

Differentiated between the two of you, you mean?

[Friend 2]

Yeah, definitely. Because for so long growing up, there was so much, like, anxiety around their lack of education and like, they've carried that insecurity themselves pretty deeply, but wanted to, like, level up in terms of socioeconomic class and so, like, strivers in that sense. And so I think that even made them actually nervous to ever develop a relationship much deeper with his parents. And I actually remember talking to my parents about that being like, oh, we could all hang out. And, you know, I remember my mom was like, oh, you know, like, they don't want to hang out with us. Like, we didn't. We don't have any schooling or anything.

[Friend 1]

Like that, so that's crazy to hear.

[Esther Perel]

Did you know that?

[Friend 1]

I did not know that. Yeah.

[Friend 2]

So. But I think one of the similar things is we were one of the few South Asian families in our town, so regardless of the different directions that we came, that was the common linkage there, for sure. And growing up, there was no other person that I met who was, you know, love their traditional heritage as much as also being quite comfortable in, like, predominantly, like, white spaces, which is where we grew up. I think one distinction I also always carried is that he's Catholic, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. I'm Muslim, and so I always felt a little bit more of an outsider in that way. I also. Oh, yeah, big time in that town. I used to. You know, I remember when Osama bin Laden was killed, people were like, oh, yeah, sorry to hear about your uncle. Like, really intense Islamophobia growing up. And I think that is also something that I envied, you know, it would.

[Esther Perel]

Just make me wonder, you know, all that.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. This is all. I mean. Yeah. No, not really. I mean, some stuff I was obviously aware of, just knowing that he's Muslim and my family.

[Esther Perel]

It's not that he is. It's what that experience.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Means to. I really wish we.

[Esther Perel]

And then it says a little.

[Friend 1]

And, you know, it means this a lot.

[Friend 2]

I try to downplay, but don't. Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Or at least not here.

[Friend 2]

Okay. Okay.

[Friend 1]

I think it makes me.

[Esther Perel]

Here is okay. We will take it as it was, not as you've tried to make.

[Friend 2]

Was shitty. It was definitely shitty. And so I think it's easier for me to downplay it so that I can relate on a level to, like, you know, best friend and so.

[Esther Perel]

But you just told your best friend some nuances of your experience.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. I guess you never, like, put those pieces together.

[Esther Perel]

But let's hear how.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I mean, well, I think there was nothing in your story that I didn't know. But in terms of how that story made you feel different from me, and the amount that it made you feel different from me is. Yeah. Makes me sad for a couple reasons, obviously, because I honestly feel like this would have been really great to have talked about earlier on, the difference there. Because honestly, I think the gap that you feel for me is not the same gap that I grew up feeling with you. My context is relative to the people around me. Much more of a gap than my gap with you. To the extent where even knowing all these differences with you, it never felt like there was a difference. Obviously there is. You feel it. That's your experience. But my parents, sure, they definitely the biggest difference is the education, but they had a really rough time in this country. Like, really, really rough time. My dad was here by himself for seven years after getting engaged for a week, you know, and had to, like, work in a factory for most of that time. And like, even though I went to a Catholic school, my parents went in serious debt for that, did not grow up super well off at all, and felt like I got Islamophobia too. Even though I'm not just the only person. I was in an all white space in school my entire life, which was a space where I envied you. You got to grow up with diversity. And I always wished I went to public school because of that and did not enjoy going to a school where I didn't have that kind of experience or even enough experience to feel comfortable being around other South Asian people or just not getting to do that. And my parents never were able to deeply connect with people who weren't from the same exact community as them. And all of those were things that I felt like, yes, our experiences are different, but they're both so much more different than everybody else is here, that we connect really deeply because of that.

[Friend 2]

Right?

[Friend 1]

Yeah. So I guess it just makes me sad that you've, like, gone so much of your life feeling like there was that much of a gap and not sharing that because I would have loved to have, like, stepped in more there or.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, I would say. I mean, I think I carried that gap earlier in our friendship.

[Esther Perel]

From the moment they met, they shared a ton together. But here, as they walked in, stuff was pouring out of them, of the ways that they had each observed the other, the other's family, with things that they had actually never said out loud. And also pieces of their own experience, particularly more painful aspects. And it reminded me when my childhood friends meet my adult friends, the adult friends always want to know how was she when she was little? And what's so amazing is the way that we take each other in at six, what we perceive, how we understood the family. It's amazing the little details that we stay with of how we internalize someone when we were young.

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Aster's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify Starting a business means that there's a never ending to do list. So finding the right tool that can help you simplify everything can be life changing for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind businesses around around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. They have hundreds of ready to use templates to help design your brand's style and they can make marketing easier by creating email and social media campaigns. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into a big success. With Shopify on your site, you can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com estaire go to shopify.com estere shopify.com ester.

[Friend 2]

Support for this show comes from Robinhood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robinhood Trading. Crypto involves significant risk Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto llc. Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or civic protected. Investing involves risk including loss of principal. Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC MemberCIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Thrive Market. We're heading into Back to School season, so you want to make sure that your kitchen is full of everything your family needs. Thrive Market's Back to School sale is your way to stock up. Thrive lets you shop by diet, lifestyle or even food phases because with kids, tastes can change quickly. You can save 25% on all your go to pantry staples and even discover some new favorites. If you have a busy schedule and you want clean, quality snacks, this is the time to check out Thrive New members also get 30% off their first order and a free gift. I've ordered from Thrive Market myself. I got nuts, cookies, dried mango, and the organic mango was the perfect snack to keep me going in between sessions, meetings, and especially when I record podcast episodes. And everyone at the office appreciated it. You can go to thrivemarket.com begin and start saving today. That's thrivemarket.com begin sale ends August 31st.

[Friend 2]

I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties. Cause I actually. I didn't know. I thought y' all were, like, pretty, like, well off. I didn't actually know that, like, there was all this underneath. Cause on the surface, yeah, definitely you see one thing, and then that detail definitely helped that.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I mean, my family definitely tried to present, like, my parents definitely tried to present differently than when I was there. And, like. And we just don't talk about that stuff. Like, I didn't grow up. We didn't talk about anything. So I didn't know. But it was clear. My family, you know, we just didn't talk about money, and we didn't do things. We never really did anything extravagantly. My parents would just save up all their money just to go to India every few years.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

I mean, that's the reason I've been doing my own thing, you know? Like, I didn't want to be a burden financially to my parents. I've been paying for everything in my life since I was, like, 16, specifically so that I don't have to add to that burden, specifically so that I can try to help them and give back for their sacrifice. Which I know you talk about and you feel as well.

[Friend 2]

Absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

You both help your families.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, he definitely does more so.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. Like, regular payments to them. One of the things that I really admire is he. I don't know if this is. Yeah, you can. Okay, cool. Like, launched his own company, and it's something that I really want to do. I don't have a safety net. Like, as soon as I stop making money, that's an income source that's lost to the family, and they can't support me doing this. And so I always really admired. And envious, too, I think, like, envious, too.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's accurate. I don't want to make it seem like we come from the exact same background. Right. I think there's obviously a difference there, and one that I absolutely recognize. And I think part of the reason I didn't share at all is because I didn't feel like it Was my space to share because you had more that you were dealing with. So I didn't want to take away from that.

[Friend 2]

That's tough.

[Esther Perel]

Some of the things that you don't address, your intention is to protect the other.

[Friend 1]

Mm.

[Friend 2]

I think that's where the last finished a sentence.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I mean, you know, as much as I felt like we were in this together, this is someone I can relate to. Someone who shares all these things that I feel. Yeah, you've just always been so authentic, so open in ways that I've always been very self protective. You know, I never talk about anything that's like a point of stress. Like growing up, I didn't. And you were the first person I felt like, okay, I still don't really need to talk about it, but I at least feel very comfortable here.

[Esther Perel]

But also talks like an open book.

[Friend 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What's it like for you?

[Friend 1]

Total just admiration. How can someone be like this? How can someone go through this world that I feel like I'm also going through and be so comfortable sharing about themselves? It's been, I think the part that has been both I want to emulate and that I've been. If we're talking about jealousy, envy, or like, that's something that I absolutely don't feel like I have. And it's part of the reason why you cultivate such a deep relationship so quickly. And I just don't let myself really get there. And I don't know if I'm capable to do it super well. So. So, yeah, so I felt like we were in this together, but also I did feel like there was more tension in your life, like pulling at you, holding you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions. Whereas I did still feel like I could sort of choose my own path here.

[Esther Perel]

When they talk about being one among a few South Asian families in the south, they emphasize the similarities. But when they start to peel the layers of the differences between them and the nuances of their backgrounds and their respective family cultures, the differences become much more manifest. What they admire, what they envy, what they compete about, what they hid, what they long for and what they share. Say more.

[Friend 1]

Well, I mean, your family was asking of you things directly, whereas my parents never talked about things. They were under duress all the time, but they never shared anything. And as a result, they never asked me directly to do anything in a way that his family was always asking him to help here do this.

[Esther Perel]

What do you think makes for that difference?

[Friend 1]

I do think there's a level of financial security I'M sure to some degree, but also culture.

[Esther Perel]

In what sense?

[Friend 1]

In our family's culture, there's just not really a like an asking for help ever.

[Esther Perel]

Asking for help from the children or period. Meaning period. The parents take care of the kids and the kids are meant to be kids versus the parents, and the kids are part of one system and everybody has responsibilities and everybody takes care of everyone.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's.

[Esther Perel]

Is that what we're talking about?

[Friend 1]

Yeah.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. That's very, very heavy. As even you were talking about the asks. I was just feeling the burdens on my body of just like, oh, God. All of the things that I have that I've been asked in a certain.

[Esther Perel]

Kind of a Western sense of the word. You were defined as a child.

[Friend 1]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And you were defined as a little adult.

[Friend 2]

Yep.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I think that's a big. Because my parents were always wanting to protect my sister and I from having to deal with this world.

[Esther Perel]

That's right.

[Friend 1]

And they would do everything behind closed doors. They would do everything without us knowing, no matter what that took.

[Esther Perel]

And you associate that to your parents, to their particular culture, to their being Catholic Indians, to which part of it? Or to whatever.

[Friend 1]

I think to our family culture. They're both older siblings. We have huge family. They're both the oldest of like 40 plus first cousins. And in growing up in India, they.

[Esther Perel]

Were in his role.

[Friend 1]

They were in his role.

[Esther Perel]

And they wanted to make sure that their kids have to.

[Friend 1]

Didn't have to. Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God. Interesting.

[Friend 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you, in a way, grew up with the notion that I'm going to be so independent that I don't have to ask them for anything. And you grew up with the notion that I'm going to make it so that I can give them everything they need.

[Friend 2]

That is the dream. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

My heart goes out to both of you because both are very, very caring, thoughtful stances of which some of it was articulated early on and some of it you intuitively understood and are now putting words to.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we both really related on the care for our families. Like, deep, deep feeling that there was things that we needed to alleviate. But I think that breakdown makes it a clearer distinction of, like, the different ways that we internalized and approached it. Like, I think growing up, like, your parents found a lot of meaning and joy in seeing you, like, have fun, whereas my parents wanted me to have happiness and joy and. But it was so rooted in this family web.

[Friend 1]

I will say it hasn't been a light, easy path with my parents. At all going through that. I split from my parents. I had a ton of. For a full year and a half. Just didn't talk to my mom in order to. In order to start from scratch, do my own thing, carve my own path and not feel bound to a world that I didn't choose.

[Esther Perel]

So it's a kind of a tension between my loyalty to my family and my pursuit of my individual achievements.

[Friend 1]

Absolutely. It was an east meets west conflict.

[Esther Perel]

It's very powerful what you're saying, Right. You kind of dividing this a little bit in a dualistic way. Right. The interdependence versus the self reliance. If I wanted to be able to finally pursue, not only did I have to not talk about anything, which was your first degree, but the next degree was I had to cut off for a bit in order to not hear them inside of me. Which of course doesn't really work this way. And so you pay a price. You pay a price of the disconnect inside. You get to achieve, but you also get to numb yourself and to cut off parts of you. You don't just cut off your parents. And you end up feeling. At some point I have to accept my rhythm. It won't go in the same speed because I can never think what do I want separately from. How does it affect them? It's a different way of placing the self. And you're 20, what, five? Both of you. So it's, you know, this is also developmental.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Well, and that was when I was 16.

[Esther Perel]

That you didn't speak.

[Friend 1]

You know, looking back, it's the experience that I have the most guilt around, without a doubt. Because, I mean, there was a fracture in my relationship with them and there's been healing, but I still feel that tension. Unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me or that I would have been able to, is to be able to just pay off all their debts and let them travel, let them relax.

[Esther Perel]

Because that would justify why you had to do what you had to do.

[Friend 1]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

But they may be wiser than you and maybe they actually. If you even could explain that to them. Yeah, that in itself.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I think I'm just afraid and what would happen.

[Esther Perel]

I know that that's not part of the friendship, but I also think he could be extraordinarily helpful to you on that.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's like you are the person he looks at when he wants to think about pursuing himself. You look to him when you are looking at how to maintain connection and these two go hand in hand. Actually. They don't exist without each other.

[Friend 2]

I bet that this way that you think of attachment to your parents and like the way that it relates to your own self growth, I'm sure it manifests in our relationship as well as like very close friends because bang. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

How I was waiting for that.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. I mean like, I feel like sometimes in our friendship and I like hear you make the effort sometimes, but I think sometimes I worry that like the growth is more important than the like relationship growth.

[Esther Perel]

You mean the achievement?

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Accomplishments.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Success.

[Friend 2]

Like your journey that like you're on and because I also look up to you and I admire you. Like I've tried to live that way too. And it's just caused me insane distress. Like I've tried to push my family and it's just. It's just so hard. Like it's really hard for me. And that's why I've had to accept like that it's just not also me. I actually don't really know about this period of a year long fracture from your mother. But I also cannot even imagine it. Like I cannot. It's beyond conception for me.

[Esther Perel]

How does that resonate for you? You are more interested in your pursuits and your self development and your achievements than in the importance of your relationships. Which includes him.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. I've heard it from every partner I've ever had as well. So I think there's probably something to it. I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's taken precedence over the people in my life or even my own joy. I don't really do things for joy often and I've just been very reactive in my relationships in general. We just worked. There's so much overlap. There's so much connection. We have such a similar sense of adventure and curiosity that when we were in the same space, especially early on when there weren't other people in our lives like that, there was an explosion and there was no proactive. Let's do this, let's work on this, let's build this. And now I don't think I've actively prioritized it. And I really do wanna be more intentional about it, but I haven't been.

[Esther Perel]

Does he make sure that you stay in touch? He's the one who reaches out.

[Friend 1]

I think we both do every once in a while. I think it's changed recently.

[Friend 2]

I pulled back in the last couple years.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Even though.

[Esther Perel]

Cause what? Finish it up.

[Friend 2]

Cause I mean, I was just like, is it really about, like, our best friendship or like, are you trying to meet other. Like, I was sometimes feeling like, was it just like the adventures and the like, growth that you experienced in our relationship or was it actually like, you know, us being best friends? Because I felt like there were periods of time where I was like, if just meets another person who will offer him more growth opportunities in terms of self and career, you will be more in tuned and interested in that as opposed to our friendship.

[Friend 1]

Dang. Yeah. I mean, you'll always be my best friend.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

There's never going to be a connection there.

[Esther Perel]

But is there truth to this?

[Friend 1]

I mean, I can understand where that's coming from, and I absolutely think my behavior and where my mind was leading me in places that's super fair and I'm sorry.

[Friend 2]

I appreciate the apology, but I pulled back intentionally. You know, there's a relationship is like a rubber band, you know, like, there's. I didn't want it to get to like a point where it ever snapped. So it was like I needed to create some of that breathing room for us to, like, recognize that there was tension emerging. So I always have faith.

[Friend 1]

Can I also say, I mean, you know, I can see where you're coming from. I also did feel something similar towards you, you know, because you're. You're a super dynamic person. You make friends super easily and you're always doing different things. And when we went off to college, I knew you were making really deep friendships with people, and I wasn't. I mean, I was very much like, I wasn't trying to, but was making a lot of different connections and acquaintances and people who I'd know but wasn't making deep friendships. And that probably scared me. I mean, it did scare me, but I don't think we really spent enough time validating what we meant to each other and what we wanted to mean to each other at the time.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, I think that was the nature of growing up in Georgia. We were these two male best friends. It was just so homophobic in that area that, like, even just saying things like talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just like, taboo, you know, Too intimate. Yeah, too intimate. We never. And I think. So what that happened for me going to college was I was like, yo, like, I mean, I was. I was like, you know, he's probably like, basically like, I. I think I may have been throwing myself and trying to connect with so many people.

[Esther Perel]

Say it.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, because I thought you were making, like. I didn't think I was important as a best friend to you. And so I was throwing myself into that because I didn't feel secure enough in our friendship to just trust that that was always there. But I will say that for many years in college, I avoided calling anyone like a best friend because that was. I was always my best friend is you.

[Esther Perel]

It would have been like a betrayal.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, it would have felt like a betrayal. And then honestly, I think growing up, it was a lot of me trying to keep the relationship going and the friendship going that I was like, oh, like, what if I'm stifling your growth? And that made me like insecure and maybe I was like, I think there.

[Esther Perel]

Was one thing that hold on. Yeah, Take a breath.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, yeah. A lot, lot coming out.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Just take a moment.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Friend 1]

I remember honed on oh.

[Esther Perel]

In the course of the session, every time they would start speaking truth, they'd start talking faster and faster and getting more and more revved up. And the anxiety that accompanied the revelations was such that I had to continuously temper, create rhythm, slow down, breathe, listen and integrate. And every time they'd start to speed up again, as if they wanted to protect each other so much that they wouldn't say things that would hurt the other or annoy the other, and it just was pouring out. And then again, slow down, breathe and integrate. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Sixpenny Home is many things. Sometimes it's chaotic, sometimes joyful, at other times serene. And choosing beautiful pieces to live with is a thoughtful way to turn your house into a home and your home into a place you love. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with comfortable slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. Their furniture is completely customizable and made by hand at their own factory using all natural linens and cottons, lofty cushions overstuffed with ethically sourced feathers or recycled fibers, all without the use of harmful chemical coatings. Bottom line, Sixpenny furniture is both high quality and high value. You can visit sixpenny.com begin for a leisurely browse through their impeccably designed pieces and perhaps even order yourself some free swatches. That's s I x P-E-N-N-Y.com begin.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Let'S be honest, are you happy with your job? Like really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of People can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out and we give reasons, like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place, and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Unstuck to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Unstuck. Support for the show comes from Mercury. What if banking did more? Because to you, it's more than an invoice. It's your hard work becoming revenue. It's more than a wire. It's payroll for your team. It's more than a deposit. It's landing your fundraise. The truth is, banking can do more. Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use. Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs who use Mercury to do more for their business. Mercury Banking, that does more.

[Esther Perel]

Sometimes it's about what needs to be said, and then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said. Part of what you're saying is we felt very, very close, but we've never told each other how close we feel. But I knew that I couldn't call somebody else my best friend because it would be disloyal to you. That's super power.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

Wow.

[Friend 2]

Some real shit.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Sounds like we let a bunch of our own insecurities about our relationship get in the way. I remember, I mean, so many occasions where you would tell me something really important in your life and then you would follow it up with talking about how other people that you've shared this with have responded in different ways. And maybe that was you trying to protect yourself for sure. But to me, that was, oh, he doesn't really need this relationship that much. Like, I feel like it's little things like that. And I was quiet, you know, I was sharing that, obviously.

[Esther Perel]

So I tell you about my other friends so that you don't think that I am putting all my wait on you and that I'm too needy. And then I hear you tell me about the other friends, and so then I think I'm not that important after all.

[Friend 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And so each of you who are so important to each other leave these conversations thinking you're not that important after all. How ironic.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. Yeah, that is.

[Esther Perel]

That is true. He just expressed the core of the conflict, and I didn't want them to just ride over it. In fact, he applied because he was feeling more and more that he was the best friend of the past, that the pursuit of self development and growth and achievement and success was such that he was in search of another best friend, the one that would accompany him into the next phase. And since he had chosen relationships over self, he was moving at a different pace. And that would become the fracture in their relationship. And they needed to just sit with that for a moment. This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins, their immigrant backgrounds. This is a piece in every friendship. Where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond? And if I start to feel that our bond is secondary to you, then I'm going to retreat. Do you share your love lives with each other? Do you talk about that?

[Friend 1]

I think so, yeah. That was another area where I think early on was a big difference between us, because I didn't really have a love life for a while because of a lot of insecurities I had.

[Esther Perel]

What stood in the way for you when you say insecurities?

[Friend 1]

Well, so this is one of the factors that led to my breaking point with my parents. When I was in middle school, I was asked out on a date and I really wanted to go and finally worked up the courage to tell my mom, and she completely shut me down. And it was like a traumatic experience for me at the time, because especially I'd been thinking about this for days and days and days before finally figuring out the words, testing it out, finally sharing it. First time, really, I felt like I was sharing something that was off path from what they wanted of me. And that was a tension I carried with me for so long. And I always wondered, you know, how can I do something that my parents would be so not supportive of, you know? So it took me until I got to college and like, that I really was in a serious relationship for the first time.

[Esther Perel]

And me and you, where you date those girls then?

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I dated a woman during college. We ended up dating for about a year, and it was actually crazy when we finally Started sharing.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

We were going through a lot of similar things and really crazy similarities in our relationships.

[Friend 2]

We both started dating like our first serious partners in around the same time. Actually. There came a period when we both realized we wanted to end our romantic partnerships with our partners around the same time as well. And he was like, it's really hard. She's having a hard time. But, like, I know it's not right for me. This is where my growth is headed. I'm gonna move in this direction. Whereas when I did it and I saw just the grief, just, like, the challenge, and also how I felt, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I really love you. You're a really important person in my life. What am I doing here? So there was a lot of thinking, and I was really looking at your example the whole time.

[Esther Perel]

Why do you put them as opposed to each other? Your personal growth and your relationships, don't they go hand in hand?

[Friend 2]

We used to have a lot of conversations about this. Are romantic relationships actually a tether towards ultimate growth and achievement? And I believe that.

[Esther Perel]

That they are.

[Friend 2]

I think at that I was under a lot of tension. I didn't know I was, like, looking up to you, and I wanted to be like you. And I knew that, like.

[Esther Perel]

But it actually has been a bane for him.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

And the way I ended that relationship was awful.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Friend 1]

And I wish I didn't do it that way. I've learned a lot since then. I didn't really know.

[Esther Perel]

Hold on a sec.

[Friend 1]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

This is New York City.

[Friend 1]

Yes.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

It's a metaphor for the emergency crisis I was in at the time.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Meaning, you know, I just didn't know how to communicate and really have a conversation about it. It was really kind of came out of nowhere.

[Esther Perel]

And why did you want to end things for that same split that he's talking about?

[Friend 1]

I felt like there was more of my energy, consistently, that was going towards the relationship than I wanted.

[Esther Perel]

Do you never think that the relationship can give you energy that you can then use for your career pursuits? That it actually is an emboldening thing rather than a suck?

[Friend 1]

It's a really good point. I mean, it's something that I need to. I need to open myself up more to that idea.

[Esther Perel]

There's a part of you that sees relationships, and that's what you describe with your parents, as restrictive. You don't see them as generative. It's like me versus and the relationship takes from me rather than the relationship offers me, opens me, energizes me. You name it. It's not a jail.

[Friend 1]

Biggest tension I feel with allowing myself to go there is this fear that this person's goals, this person's energies, this person's desires, and what hours will be together will shift me away from some goals that I have that I care really deeply about. Because I made that split so early, I feel like I can do things on my own, and I just feel like things will deviate me from the path. And I think a lot of my emotional structures are probably deeply rooted with feeling very profound connections with people like you and my sister.

[Esther Perel]

But he also ends up feeling like he becomes a deviation from your path.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Well, it's weird because the reason I feel like I think my. I feel comfortable doing things on my own is because I know I have such profound connections with people like him.

[Esther Perel]

As long as he makes sure that the connection is preserved. But if he steps back like he did in the last two years, do you notice it?

[Friend 1]

I definitely have, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

After how long?

[Friend 1]

No, throughout. It's definitely have recognized it. But I do sense. I think it's more than just an investment that isn't mutual. I think there's actually been some active growing apart.

[Esther Perel]

Say more about the growing apart.

[Friend 1]

There's, like, tension when, like, the last couple years when we've just, like, hung out, it's felt like we're not only, like, sitting with that tension of not talking about it, but we are doing things consistently. Saying little things here and there that add to that tension, you know, mentioning different things that we're each doing in a way that, like, yeah, I just went on this trip here, and I just met these friends, and here's an experience I just went on that is maybe something we would have done together back in the day. And it almost feels like a jab. Like, here's something that I am capable of doing this without you.

[Esther Perel]

Like, each one jabs the other with statements that say, look how great my life is without you.

[Friend 1]

Something like that. Yeah. But I think in terms of relationships, I still am. I do see this as, like, an additive relationship.

[Esther Perel]

To me, best friends is not, what can you do for me? It's not organized around interest, roi. It's a different level. And if you start to feel like we're each showing the other, hey, cool. Without you, and you start to do it as a way also of saying, I don't really miss you. Go ahead.

[Friend 2]

Yeah, I think that's just spot. Like, I was definitely. I think it's coming back to not knowing where the other stood. Cause you were like, you were doing some amazing things over the years. And like I said, I've looked up to you for so long. For a while, I didn't know where I would ne. I didn't know, like. Yeah. Whether I needed. I had any value in that. In that chain. And I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs where it was like, oh, I actually don't need you either. You know what? I'm cool. And was hoping that me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. What about us?

[Esther Perel]

And I think, do you travel together? Have you.

[Friend 1]

Have we?

[Friend 2]

I don't think so.

[Esther Perel]

It's always, oh, my God.

[Friend 1]

Their minds, maybe.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. They're mined. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Internal journeys. You've done many.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. We had never really been so intentional about, like, you know, carving out that time for each other because we had been so accustomed to, like, being like, oh, you know, our friendship is so strong. We don't need to, like, intentionally maintain it. Like, it's. It's just a natural thing, you know, there's no work or effort that needs to be put into it, you know, it's really not the case.

[Friend 1]

Not at all. It's crazy. Cause, I mean, he's just someone who. You're just someone who. We were talking about this earlier, but you are really open and sharing with everybody that. It's always been hard for me to know, like, is there anything that's just preserved for me? That's where a lot for me is, like, oh, you're gonna be good. You're gonna create support systems everywhere you go. Whereas in my world, it wasn't that at all. You know, I internalized more things. So. Yeah. It's just interesting how that kind of adds to this too.

[Friend 2]

Well, you're my favorite person to take on the world with. I realize and recognize it now when I said I want us to be lifelong friends, just, like, because I want you to be in my life, like, in my life. Not, like, checking in here and there, but, like, you know, be best friends. And I know for myself that I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to provide or create in order to feel like you can justify this friendship. And I know that that's also a personal journey that you're trying to understand more around. But that was how I was feeling for some time.

[Friend 1]

I mean, I love you, man.

[Friend 2]

You do, man.

[Friend 1]

It's just, like, I want you to know how much you really do mean to me, too, because you're not just, like, my favorite Friend. You're the single best human being I've ever met. You really are. I really think you're just an incredible person. So there's no. I don't like the notion of. I've never thought about this as, like, a value exchange. If anything, I've thought about the same exact thing of, like. As someone who is so. Like, I think of friendship and relationship being so grounded in sharing and as someone who is so willing to share and comfortable sharing. Like, do I offer anything uniquely here?

[Esther Perel]

Can I ask you something?

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I could ask so many different things. I'm just curious in the moment. What do you think has made it so that you've never said any of these things to each other?

[Friend 1]

Being freaking men?

[Friend 2]

Yeah. I think I feel the resistance of just our upbringings and just being like upbringings or men.

[Esther Perel]

Or men in your upbringing.

[Friend 2]

Men in our specific upbringing.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, I don't think that other men necessarily would have an easier time. Two straight guys who can admit to the love that they feel for each other. Is that what we're talking about?

[Friend 2]

Yeah, probably.

[Esther Perel]

So what is the taboo? When you say women cisgendered straight guys, I mean women. So what. What do we. And what don't we.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, I think we don't necessarily share our feelings about each other openly. I can do what I need to do. You know, I'm powerful. I don't need anybody else. I don't have vulnerabilities that aspect.

[Friend 2]

This belief in true independence as well. I don't think we've ever talked about actually, like, needing one another. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we even mentioned it in this conversation as well either.

[Esther Perel]

No, you were talking about how you were trying to make clear to the other that you don't need that.

[Friend 2]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Exactly. What are the other taboos?

[Friend 2]

I mean, there is like a. There is a power element to it as well. I don't want to feel ever, like, less in power in relation to you, I think, because it would create some sort of, like, submissive or needy. I think I've. We've used that word a couple times here.

[Esther Perel]

Every time you talk about not wanting to be needy, you cross your arms.

[Friend 2]

Oh, yeah.

[Friend 1]

I've never felt I have more power, like I'm more powerful or anything like that. I don't want to.

[Friend 2]

I think there's actually. When you say that, I think there's actually a part of me that values achievement and growth and impact more so than the relational component. And I wonder if he's actually right. Like, this is how you must be. This is how you must be in order to achieve.

[Esther Perel]

You know, My friend and colleague Terry Real, he says, under patriarchy, men can either feel powerful or connected, but they can't necessarily have both at the same time.

[Friend 2]

That is exactly how I feel.

[Friend 1]

And I feel like I'm on the flip side, you know, wanting the exact yin and yang a little bit.

[Esther Perel]

Cultural systems change. You more than anybody know this. You represent cultures in transition inside of you. So can you do it vis a vis these norms, these supposed contradictions of either or. Either powerful or connected? And so now it becomes the powerful and the connected. He's the powerful, you're the connected.

[Friend 2]

Right. Which is a wild thing.

[Esther Perel]

You grapple with the part of you that wants what you call achievement, power. But it comes at the price of disconnect, which is what you've emphasized. It's efficient. I've succeeded. I don't need anybody. Let me give you the list of everything I can do for which I don't need people. But he then becomes the part of you that is disavowed. And part of the distance that I think has been created between the two of you is because each one has become a representation of the part of you that you struggle with.

[Friend 1]

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[Friend 2]

That's very real.

[Esther Perel]

Do your fathers have best friends?

[Friend 2]

My father's best friend broke his heart. That is the story. They were business partners. And then my father, who is much more of a relate. He is a prominent community organizer and has helped hundreds of Bangladeshi migrants come to the States. And basically they were. My dad tells me the story. We were best friends in the village growing up. From preschool, he married his sister, like my father's best friend married his sister, his favorite sister. And they were in business together. And basically his friend was more driven and just cut him off in the business. And my father told me then friends are only this. It's family that's the most important. Your friends are great, but you never know when they might stab you. And I think that's what creates this protective response in me because my father is incredibly protective and carries a lot of sorrow from relationships that he feels like he over invested in and then people didn't reciprocate in return because he's so community organizing and he feels like he did not achieve his dreams because he spent so much time trying to help and connect with others. Yep.

[Esther Perel]

Wow. But of course, I can't not think that the same dance is happening right here. Right. How often do you see each other?

[Friend 2]

It's Been a long time nowadays.

[Friend 1]

Like a couple times a year maybe.

[Esther Perel]

So what some people do is to have rituals. Every two months we take a weekend of what are the kind of things you enjoy doing when you.

[Friend 2]

So many things. Everything.

[Esther Perel]

Give me a few.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. We could go to some basketball games together.

[Friend 1]

Yeah.

[Friend 2]

We could go hiking together. I'm sure film something together one day would be really cool. Like trying to like make a small movie when we're both.

[Esther Perel]

So why don't you say we have a ritual. We meet every eight weeks.

[Friend 2]

Let's do it, man.

[Friend 1]

Yeah. Be on for that.

[Friend 2]

Yeah. I mean, we're so close to the.

[Esther Perel]

Weekend together or a long weekend together. One time here, one time at my place, one time to something else. And have it be the ritual you never broke. So that even when you have families one day, if you do, or partners, you just say this. And it may not be two months at that time, but there is a pillar, there's a thing. And then one day you'll say, for the past 30 years.

[Friend 2]

Wow.

[Esther Perel]

Every X that thing is an immovable.

[Friend 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's an ode to us.

[Friend 2]

Wow. Dang.

[Friend 1]

I think it would be nice for each of us to make a commitment like that to each other. For sure. Yeah. This doesn't scare me at all. This is exciting.

[Friend 2]

Let's do it. Let's do it.

[Friend 1]

That on the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing this.

[Esther Perel]

So this is not a long term commitment. This is a reliable gift.

[Friend 2]

Oh, a reliable gift.

[Friend 1]

A reliable gift. I like that.

[Esther Perel]

Friendship. My reliable gift. Something happened in their friendship that expressed an internal conflict that became a relational conflict. So that each of them became the representation of the part that the other one was struggling with and felt ambivalent about. One struggled with the side of him that wanted to maintain connections at a point. Price of experiencing a compromise of the self. And the other experienced the price of maintaining his pursuits and his focus and on his own individual compass. At the price of losing his connection to the people that mattered to him. And they were each hurt by that. Am I not important enough for you when you keep climbing and doing your own individual stuff? Said one and the other. Am I not important to you when you have so many other important people in your life? And they were hurt and they felt neglected by the other and they needed to reconnect. And now let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals.

This episode of Where Should We Begin? Was done in collaboration with our friends at NPR and Invisibilia to hear more from their season on friendship. And to hear Astaire talk about the nature of friendships, just go to npr.org or look for Invisibilia. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Friend 1]

Foreign.

[Esther Perel]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Ester's monthly newsletter, go to Esther Perel. Estera Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esteraparell.com.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Do you know what sets Etsy apart from the rest of its competitors? It's the personal touch you feel with every item that you buy. Now Etsy has partnered with basketball stars Cameron Brink, Skylar Diggins, Neca Ogumike and Briana Stewart to bring that personal touch to you. With the help of Etsy sellers, these athletes co designed pieces that reflect their personal, iconic style and celebrate the shared spirit of grit, originality and heart that drives both athletes and makers. Shop the full collection and curated edits [e-mail] the IconCollection.