I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To

Summary

Podcast Summary: "I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To" Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: April 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel facilitates a deeply personal and emotionally charged counseling session between a divorced couple grappling with unresolved issues in their relationship. The session delves into the recurring theme of unmet emotional needs and the complexities of conditional love within long-term partnerships.

Background

The couple, married for eight years and divorced nearly two years prior, share a nine-year-old son. Their relationship history is marked by frequent conflicts, miscommunications, and a persistent cycle of escalation that leaves both feeling unappreciated and misunderstood. Despite their separation, they remain closely connected through co-parenting, yet find themselves entangled in a "dance" of reconciliation and separation.

The Conflict

At the heart of their struggles is the persistent feeling of inadequacy in meeting each other's emotional needs. Esther introduces the session with the pivotal statement:

Esther Perel [00:00]: "You can't love me the way I want to be loved."

This sets the stage for exploring how each partner's love language—Acts of Service versus Words of Affirmation—leads to misunderstandings and feelings of neglect.

Participant 1 expresses frustration over feeling that their efforts (e.g., organizing family activities, maintaining household tasks) go unnoticed and unappreciated:

Participant 1 [44:22]: "It's noticing you for you and being curious about what brought you there... Without trying to prove you wrong."

Conversely, Participant 2 (the ex-partner) acknowledges their own shortcomings in expressing emotional support, revealing a history shaped by a tumultuous upbringing that instilled defensive and confrontational behaviors:

Participant 2 [54:35]: "I have to start from a place of appreciating what is done... It would change a lot."

Insights and Analysis

Esther Perel expertly navigates the conversation, identifying underlying patterns that perpetuate their conflicts:

1. Conditional Love and Validation:

   • Participant 1's upbringing in a chaotic environment fosters a belief that love must be earned through perfection and constant achievement.
   • Participant 2 struggles with expressing vulnerability, defaulting to defensiveness to protect against perceived criticism.

2. Communication Barriers:

   • Both partners engage in an adversarial framework, often escalating minor disagreements into major conflicts.
   • The lack of effective listening leads to misinterpretations and reinforces negative self-beliefs.

3. Impact on Their Son:

   • The ongoing tensions between the parents have a profound effect on their child, who witnesses prolonged periods of silence and aggression, leading to feelings of fear and insecurity.

Notable Quotes

• Esther Perel [10:53]: "Speaking is what enters into the bowl. It's the thing that you pour into a bowl. But listening is the shape of the bowl that actually defines where the water or where the words will land."

• Participant 2 [21:55]: "Your differences of opinion or of tastes or of background, that is not what is problematic. What's problematic... is that you escalate in no time. You personalize everything."

• Participant 1 [37:32]: "I have a feeling, I feel scared and hurt and lonely. Your feelings aren't valid, so don't feel that way."

Conclusions and Resolutions

Esther encourages the couple to recognize and alter their habitual responses to one another. By shifting from a combative stance to one of mutual appreciation and effective listening, they can break the cycle of conflict. Key takeaways include:

• Embracing Vulnerability: Both partners need to allow themselves to express fears and insecurities without fear of judgment or retaliation.

• Active Listening: Focusing on understanding each other's perspectives rather than preparing rebuttals can transform their interactions.

• Apology and Acknowledgment: Recognizing and appreciating each other's efforts, even if expressed differently, can foster a sense of being valued.

• Impact Awareness: Being mindful of how their interactions affect their son can motivate them to create a more harmonious environment.

By addressing these core issues, the couple can work towards a more fulfilling and resilient relationship, whether they choose to reconcile or redefine their connection moving forward.

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Closing Remarks

"I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To" offers a profound exploration of how deeply ingrained behaviors and unmet emotional needs can hinder the growth of a relationship. Esther Perel's insightful guidance provides both participants and listeners with valuable lessons on communication, empathy, and the importance of understanding each other's love languages to build healthier, more compassionate connections.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

The phrase that is used often is you can't love me the way I want to be loved. That's the recurring thing throughout the years.

[Participant 1]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Participant 2]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Participant 2]

When a couple comes to see me, there's often one person who has reached out and that person is either familiar with the process of a therapy session or is curious, at least open minded about it. And the other person is often someone who is sometimes more skeptical or that's not the world they live in. They've never been in any therapeutic process before and they're showing up as an expression of love. I want you to know that I care about us and that's why I'm here. It's not because I want to be here, it's because I want to be with you. And this couple. They don't know where they stand. Everything is fraught. One moment it feels like they're in and the next moment everything unravels. It's a very, very shaky ground where I meet them.

[Participant 1]

I think what I'm looking for, the reason why I applied in the first place. We had, you know, one of our, one of many fights, the latest, right? And I said, you know, something needs to change. Either we go to therapy and we actually truly work on this or we just stay friends, raise the kid together and like clear boundaries. We're not together or we strictly co parent. We're not friends. We don't talk. Those are kind of my three options. I have to tell you, I am shocked that we are here right now because I never thought it would actually happen. He, as usual, said, why is it always you go too far, you do too much? Why? Why, why? You know, But I thought the analogy I gave you, he's a car guy.

[Participant 2]

Was.

[Participant 1]

If you had the chance to meet with a renowned car builder, wouldn't you? This is a chance and an opportunity to see things a different way, to get a different perspective. And I know I can tell you our problems from now until next Friday.

[Participant 2]

Can I ask you something? In the midst of explaining to him why you did and why he should appreciate it, did you also tell him how much you appreciate that he's just coming along?

[Participant 1]

No.

[Participant 2]

All right. Maybe that's where we start.

[Participant 1]

Yeah. I am shocked. And I do appreciate that you actually went along with this. I'm very curious as to your motivation.

[Participant 2]

No, no.

[Esther Perel]

So it's kind of funny you mentioned.

[Participant 2]

That we're going to do this differently. One moment. Is it okay? Because you just did what you typically both do. In this case, it's. You could be him. You explained yourself. You justified yourself. Then you told him why he should appreciate what you do. And the piece that is missing is actually just simply. I know whatever I did and whatever you may think about it, it really means a lot that you hear.

[Participant 1]

I appreciate you actually doing this.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. You're welcome. And those are the little things that we talk about this often.

[Participant 2]

Stay here. Not what happens often. It just happened.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Participant 2]

Stay with that.

[Participant 1]

I know I throw things at you all the time and I'm spinning and that you thought this was another spin. And I appreciate you just going with it and not saying f you. There's no way. You're out of your mind. You're crazy. You know, I do appreciate you just going along with my crazy for once.

[Esther Perel]

You're welcome.

[Participant 1]

I know.

[Participant 2]

Okay.

[Participant 1]

My first thought, and I know this is wrong, is how am I gonna.

[Participant 2]

Don't go there.

[Participant 1]

Okay.

[Participant 2]

If it's not gonna. If it's more of the same, if it's what you usually do, which you both actually is, the one thing you steadfastly agree on, that it really doesn't work, then don't do it.

[Participant 1]

Oh, okay.

[Participant 2]

You need change.

[Participant 1]

How are you feeling?

[Esther Perel]

It's nice that, you know, the acknowledgement of me being here is a, you know, I'm trying. I'm not trying to blame you all the time for everything. You know, it's just, it's, it's nice that you see that that little thing that I did was actually fighting for a relationship. And that's how I show, you know, that I love and respect you is by doing things like that. But it just never gets.

[Participant 2]

It just. Did it? Did you go to the never?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, you know, and it's nice.

[Participant 1]

And I frequently only see things through my lens. Like he didn't, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't. And it's hard for me to see. Oh, he did. Because he acknowledges that I'm asking for this and that he said more to you.

[Participant 2]

He said I'm fighting for our relationship.

[Participant 1]

Oh, but I, I hear that. But my brain immediately goes to the other 300,000 things that you're not.

[Esther Perel]

And that's, I think my acts of service and my acts of showing love and respect you don't receive because you just think that that is like, I guess like baseline, like that's like entry level, you know, I understand, like you're, I guess you would call it, quote, unquote, love languages like being wined and dined and lots of attention being spent, affection and, you know, that kind of stuff. And I'm more of a service oriented person, you know, fixing your faucets.

[Participant 1]

Still gotta do that.

[Esther Perel]

I get that, I get that. But I was raised, you know, those were the things that were done within a relationship that show, you know, love and respect and care, care for one another. Is when you're doing. It's just the everyday, mundane things that to me show the most, I don't think, to take you, you know, on your 600 hour dinners and, you know, that kind of stuff, to me that's, you know, that doesn't really show anybody can do that.

[Participant 1]

You know, it's something that's not a shared thing that you want to do. But going back to you.

[Participant 2]

No, no, no, but I'm not allowed to say but.

[Participant 1]

Okay.

[Participant 2]

It's not that you're not allowed to say but. You came out to say anything but. I'm doing the but too. When people are trapped in the back and forth between blame and defensiveness and attack, when they actually acknowledge something, what they've been asking for is actually right there. It's so difficult for us to actually stay in that moment. We instantly go to the usually but the other times, but yesterday. But the thousands of other things I want from you that you're not doing. I think this session is a session that everybody can relate to we've all done this and been there some version or another. We start by creating a different quality of listening. You both say a ton of things, but you don't listen well. And listening shapes the talking. The quality of each of you listening is what shapes the quality and the kind of talking that comes back from the other side. My friend Paul Brody describes speaking is what enters into the bowl. It's the thing that you pour into a bowl. But listening is the shape of the bowl that actually defines where the water or where the words will land.

[Participant 1]

So said in another way, he says something how I listen to it, interpret it, understand it, internalize it, is what.

[Participant 2]

Is important there essential, and vice versa. So before we do this loop, something that I want to clarify. You are divorced, correct? You were married. You were married.

[Participant 1]

We were married for eight years. You divorced about a year, almost two years ago. You're now.

[Participant 2]

Okay. And now.

[Participant 1]

Do you want to tell the story real quick?

[Esther Perel]

What do you mean? She's just asking me if we're, like, back together or not.

[Participant 1]

Are we?

[Participant 2]

I don't know. What?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. So we're.

[Participant 1]

Neither do I.

[Participant 2]

Together. So I.

[Participant 1]

We do not. I do not know either.

[Esther Perel]

Really?

[Participant 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, okay. I thought we were, like, dating, trying to figure it out.

[Participant 1]

The trying to figure it out is what confuses me. I don't know what that means. So my answer would be yes. We split up for about a year. I moved with our son about 10, 15 minutes away. We stayed very close.

[Participant 2]

How many are you?

[Participant 1]

Right. I have two older, and then we have a son together. And the two older are now out college and whatnot.

[Participant 2]

How old is the son that you have together?

[Participant 1]

Nine.

[Participant 2]

Okay. And lives with you. Okay.

[Participant 1]

Yeah. So we were, you know, ups and downs. There was, of course, some animosity through the divorce proceedings.

[Esther Perel]

Of course. Yeah.

[Participant 1]

Yeah, there was. But at the end of the day, we were working pretty well together. Now I have to bring it up. I started dating, I guess, last summer, and he found out about it immediately. Didn't. Came to me and said you were sorry for a lot of the stuff that went on in our marriage. First time he ever. And immediately I was like, come here, we're done. Let's try. Immediately. Like, there was. In hindsight, I'm not even gonna go there, but there was no question right on your. Yeah, but you said, I'm sorry. And I was like, okay.

[Esther Perel]

Right. And then, like, we went right back into it. And that wasn't my intention. Like, I was. That was my. That was honestly my moment of letting Go and letting her move on and finding what she needs. Because in my mind, we are very different people.

[Participant 2]

What do you think it said that when you came and you took some responsibility over some of the things that you thought were yours.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Participant 2]

That. That opened her heart unequivocally.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

What did that say?

[Esther Perel]

I know we love each other. Right. I know that 100%. I'm not fighting against, you know, is she a bad person or is she, you know, worthy or anything like that. Like, it's nothing to do with that. It's just literally how we interact on a daily basis, which I'm not going to do that to myself again. And I did realize, like, when I was apologizing to her throughout the divorce, I was never at peace with myself because of all the internal conflict within our relationship. And when I found that peace again, I realized, like, oh, I did a lot of things that were spiteful, stubborn, that did not contribute to a smooth relationship. And I realized that, and that's what I was apologizing for. Things kind of just went from there, so. And then once we got back into it, I mean, I don't even think it was 30 days, and I started noticing, like, up, we're right back in this cycle.

[Participant 2]

May I ask you.

[Esther Perel]

Sure.

[Participant 2]

Stubborn, spiteful. What do you know about it in you?

[Esther Perel]

In me?

[Participant 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

For a very long time, instead of trying to eradicate that from my consciousness, I relied on it to get me through a lot of hard times in life. In life.

[Participant 2]

Regardless of her.

[Esther Perel]

Yep.

[Participant 2]

Good. Can you tell me more about that?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I mean, that's just how I was raised. I got a very sketchy background.

[Participant 2]

Give me the brief story.

[Esther Perel]

Mother had me when she was 17. Probably I'm a product of rape. I'm pretty sure my biological father was Vietnam. Obviously we would call it PTSD nowadays. Druggie, alcoholic, committed suicide when my sister was born. So I was 18 months old. My mom met my stepfather, who great man, but again, blue collar, Irish, for lack of a better term, white trash. Like, very dock workers, that kind of stuff. So we were raised in that environment. Biker gang. Father moved us out to a small suburban town, and we just paycheck to paycheck, he was always working. My mother kind of had her problems with addiction and just coping with her past life. And we just grew up kind of yelling and fighting and very loud. It just was how I was raised. Some of it was a gift. Some of it left me with bad coping mechanisms and traits and that kind of stuff. I never went to college. I fought My way into the corporate world. Did very well for myself. Opened up my own business. I never would be able to do those things if I wasn't raised how I was raised, with that stubbornness, that fighting every day for what you want. It's my past. You can't do nothing about it. It is what it is.

[Participant 2]

Accept that it's not your past.

[Esther Perel]

It's my present and future, too. I get it.

[Participant 2]

When you look back at the kid who was in a rather chaotic environment and who needed to have a clear sense of what the hell is going on here, Right. How old is he?

[Esther Perel]

Who? 5 through 20.

[Participant 2]

If you pick one moment.

[Esther Perel]

8 or 9.

[Participant 2]

8 or 9.

[Esther Perel]

8 or nine. There was a pretty big incident.

[Participant 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That happened in my house.

[Participant 2]

Where is he? Tell me what you see.

[Esther Perel]

Oh. So he was. My dad came home pretty tuned up one night, and my mom always had a problem with his drinking because of her past alcoholism ran. Ran rampant through the family. So she was trying to deal with that clean up, get away from that herself stage. So, like, my dad wouldn't even be able to have one or two beers. And when it did, it was a problem. She would dig at him, you know, push him, push him, push him, push him. And she pushed him way too far one night. And.

[Participant 2]

It'S okay. You just saw it.

[Esther Perel]

I watched. You know, he didn't hit her, but he definitely, you know, threw her on the bed. And he had, like, a nervous breakdown. And it was just like, you know, his voice went up like 10 octaves. Sounded like a woman, you know, just, why are you doing this to me? And da, da, da. You know, and at the time, like, I. I didn't know what to do, so I ran out of the house. And my neighbor, who kind of raised me like, as a second son, he was outside. So I yelled and come running over. And he, like, he broke things up and he took my dad out of the house. And, you know, that was just kind of like, what. What the fuck moment? You know, what is. What is going on here? So, yeah, that was kind of like, I guess would be the start of fixing. Fixing. Yeah. Yep, it was rough. And my mom is a tough woman, man. Like, she's. She's a tough cookie and. And I argue with her, and I make it a point to argue with her. To this day, we still go back.

[Participant 2]

And forth and, you know, any resonance with the way you argue with your wife?

[Esther Perel]

I'm loud. I'm loud. I don't scream. Like, I'm not. She considers it screaming. She comes From a very soft household, you know, soft spoken. My volume, it's not an indicator of my emotion.

[Participant 2]

But it's just your nine year old today, if he hears you yell like that or raise your voice like that, he gets.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, he gets upset.

[Participant 2]

He gets upset.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, he definitely, definitely recoils a little.

[Participant 2]

Bit, you know, so when you see him, you can see you.

[Esther Perel]

Me, we.

[Participant 2]

Can see the nine year old.

[Participant 1]

That was the nine year old version of you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Participant 2]

And when you want to, you want to understand the effect you have on him.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Participant 2]

That scene will help you.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Participant 2]

Because you felt it in your nervous system just now.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

And you saw it and you were right back there. You were not just remembering, you were reliving.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, that is true.

[Participant 2]

So then tell me how the growth of these three responses, Stubborn, defensive, spiteful. Tell me about them. How did they become so important, so necessary? And what do you think you fight for? Not what you fight about.

[Esther Perel]

I just fight the fight. If I see something wrong or if I think somebody's being slighted, I'm going to fight.

[Participant 2]

Yes, that's an easy one. But since you fight just for a separate opinion, you fight, I fight, you fight. And every conversation is life or death, me or you.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

So it's not just when you see wrong or injustice, every difference is turned into conflict.

[Esther Perel]

No.

[Participant 2]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

No. So I honestly do value other people's opinions and I am always in for a healthy debate. Like I'm, I am very open minded to different thoughts and views. You know, when things are thoughts and views and not actual problems, I guess, like if you have to, if there's a problem that needs to be solved, and I know that this is going to solve this problem, I will fight to get that problem solved.

[Participant 2]

But in your mind, it's totally obvious that that difference of opinion is something to fight over. This was a super important moment because I actually was amplifying on what he had just said. I fight the fight. But something in the way I worded it, he didn't recognize himself when I said any difference can be a source of conflict, even though it's exactly where they go right after. And he says, I disagree. And that was very important because it meant he feels safe enough, he trusts me enough, that he can fight with me but not really fight, but that he can disagree with and hold his own. And that is so important. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for where should we Begin? Comes from Shopify. If you've ever dreamt of starting a business, it usually starts with a good product, an often overlooked element is actually the business behind the business that makes selling easy. For lots of companies, that business is Shopify. According to their data, Shopify can help you boost conversions up to 50% with their shop Pay feature. That means fewer people abandoning their online shopping carts and more people going through with the sale. If you want to grow your business, your commerce platform should be built to sell wherever your customers are online, in store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that grow grow with Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com estaire all lowercase go to shopify.com Esther to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Esther support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Masterclass There are lots of ways to satiate your curiosity and grow your knowled, but one of the best ways is to learn from someone with seasoned knowledge of their own. You can start with Masterclass. They offer a wide variety of classes and subjects from more than 200 instructors that you can learn from, for example, Jon Kabat Zinn, one of the pioneers in mindfulness meditation. You can actually take both of our classes on Masterclass, mine on Relational Intelligence and his on Mindfulness and meditation for just $10 a month billed annually. A membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor, and you can access Masterclass on your phone, your computer, your smart tv, or even in audio mode. Right now you get an additional 15% off the annual [e-mail] begin that's 15% [e-mail] begin masterclass.com begin support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Open Phone. On this show, we talk a lot about communication, of course, on Where Should We Begin? Our focus is on interpersonal relationships, but do you know what else needs smooth communication? A great phone system. OpenPhone is the number one business phone system for streamlining and scaling your customer calls. With OpenPhone, your team can share one number and collaborate on customer calls and text. That way any teammate can pick up right where the last person left off, keeping response times fast. Plus, with AI powered call transcripts and summaries, you can automate follow ups. You'll never miss a customer interaction again. OpenPhone is offering you 20% off your first six months at openphone.com begin that's O P E N P-H-O-N-E.com begin and if you have existing numbers with another service, OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone no missed calls, no missed customers.

[Esther Perel]

The Philadelphia fight was a good one. That would be a great example.

[Participant 1]

It's the reason why I applied this fight.

[Esther Perel]

This fight is what triggered it off.

[Participant 2]

That's nice. How did you. Come here? The Philadelphia.

[Esther Perel]

The Philadelphia fight. Yeah. Yeah. Chapter One.

[Participant 2]

All right. Chapter one. I'm all ears.

[Esther Perel]

So we were vacationing again.

[Participant 2]

Don't give me the long version.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Yeah. So basically, we're coming back from Quebec, and we were stuck in the car together for 10 hours, and we got onto. I despise sports. I hate them. So somebody said, Philadelphia fans have the reputation of destroying the city whether they win or not over a football game. I was like, that's trash. Those people. That's trash to me.

[Participant 2]

Chapter two.

[Esther Perel]

Chapter two is hurt you.

[Participant 1]

This is so. It was Super Bowl Sunday. I'm a huge Eagles fan. Family. We're all Eagles fans. And yes, I think it's funny, and I think it's okay.

[Participant 2]

Chapter Three.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 1]

He said people in Philadelphia are trash. I'm higher caliber. They are gross. Even if you're not doing that, you're still condoning it by saying it's funny, blah, blah, blah. And I said, it doesn't bother me. I think Philadelphia is fantastic culture. The food, it's a great scene. It's gritty, it's dirty. I love it.

[Participant 2]

Chapter five.

[Esther Perel]

And she definitely said that. And I did not take it like that.

[Participant 2]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

What I heard was, is she started, instead of looking the generalization that I was making, she started giving me examples of why my generalization was wrong and which.

[Participant 1]

Any generalization I take is technically wrong.

[Esther Perel]

Right. And she started giving me specific examples.

[Participant 1]

Of why I didn't agree, didn't agree. And then his voice got raised, and then I shut down.

[Participant 2]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Thank you. Now, what happens in this argument if I lift the hood? I know squat about cars, but I'm gonna try a metaphor with you. I lift the hood, and I'm saying, what is going on here? What would you say? Why is this guy personalizing this?

[Esther Perel]

So in my mind, I was voicing an opinion of myself and others. It could have been. Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. And, you know, I don't agree with that. But, you know, it wasn't that. It was she. She had to try to prove my generalization wrong, which it's an opinion. It's not wrong. And then she starts trying to change my opinion, and that's where I'm like, no. Like, I'm not. You know, that's how I took it.

[Participant 1]

But why did you take it Personally, you did, too. I did. And I fully. I was telling the story to my mom, and she was like, are you out of your mind? And I said, what do you mean? She goes, just be like, cool, cool. Give him the double finger and you're done.

[Esther Perel]

Which was. And it's funny he says that, because after the debacle happened, I was like, all right, let me change the subject. We'll move on. And I tried breaking bread, extending the olive branch, and I got. I just wanna go home. At which point we sat in the car, silent for 10 hours, which, with the kid in the back, is now making him think, like, whoa, this isn't good. And then I started thinking, of course we're riding home in silence, like, damn, here we are again. Same shit from five years ago. Do I really want to repeat this cycle? Do I really want to get on this carousel and continue this? And then I voice my opinion about that, and then it turns into, well, then just break up with me. Just break. I'm like, that's not. When I'm.

[Participant 1]

This is the pattern that I see. And tell me where I'm wrong here. Just.

[Participant 2]

No, no, no, no. Don't set it up, okay? You're setting it up for a battle before you've even said a word.

[Participant 1]

Oh, I didn't think about that.

[Participant 2]

You invite each other into a boxing ring.

[Participant 1]

We do.

[Esther Perel]

We do.

[Participant 2]

You are not nearly that different as he thinks you are. You do the same back and forth, and each one of you is making the other one do more of the exact thing that you don't want them to do. Yes, you are not different. And your differences are not your problem.

[Participant 1]

No.

[Participant 2]

Your differences of opinion or of tastes or of background, that is not what is problematic. What's problematic, that I see now just on a very short chapter one, is that you escalate in no time. You personalize everything. You don't distinguish between fact or subjective opinion, experience, feelings. It's all one and the same. You live in an antagonistic, adversarial framework. And underneath that is deep feelings, deep love, deep care, deep appreciation. But, boy, they don't get to see the sun very often.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

And the two of you live like two threatened people. And your boy sits in the back of the car and watches this for 10 hours. And he is looking at you. And no matter what you decide, together or not together, lovers, not lovers. All of that, you will have to think, what do we show him? Because what you show him is what you watched in your version of it. Different story. But the nine Year old is the nine year old and that nine year old is terrified. That nine year old doesn't know what to do with what's in front of him.

[Participant 1]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Whether they are on shutdown mode and don't say a word to each other or whether they are in explosion pounding mode.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Here was a moment where I made a choice which was I could have continued in the exploration of the child that lives inside each of them. That is that threatened child that feels that they have to fight for themselves all the time. But I was also thinking about the actual child that they have that is sitting for 10 hours in the car with his parents not uttering a single word. And I thought I'm gonna talk to the parents instead I'm gonna talk to the adults and hopefully the adult part of them can hear me in this moment. I'm going to rally for them and with them about engaging the more mature, responsible adult part inside of them. Even though I know that I would need to help them have a different relationship with the part of them that is that child that they once were. But I'm going to park myself temporarily in this spot. You punch at each other.

[Participant 1]

Yes. I escalate. You want to come at me, I'm going to come right back at you and I'm going to beat you. And we're very competitive in that way.

[Participant 2]

What's your line? Nobody's going to make me. What?

[Participant 1]

Do anything. Every personality test I've ever taken for work, I have to be in control. I do not like people telling me or I'm going to do it my way. Everything's fine. I'm going to figure out a way, I'm going to do it my way. My way's better. I can figure this out.

[Participant 2]

And what's the story behind that?

[Participant 1]

I think I've always just been an overachiever. My parents never worried about me. I'm fine. I'm going to get straight A's. I'm going to be in this program and that program. I'm going to do it this, that and the other. Until teenager. They split up and I rebelled, definitely rebelled. And just boys, drugs, teenage stuff, skipping school. And then I waitressed and I hustled. I had two kids young and got into the industry I'm in now and just used, which is I'm an insurance sales corporate, very corporate environment. I have to hustle and I can do it. And it's not easy. When I come to him with the complaints that I think most people have about their jobs. I don't want him to tell me. And instead of being open to his feedback, I get resentful because I don't need you to tell me how to fix. Of course I have it under control. This is me. It's under control.

[Esther Perel]

I get mad.

[Participant 1]

You do.

[Esther Perel]

You get very upset when you talk about your job. And I do because she is in the top 1% earners of the country. She makes an extremely amount of money with no college degree. She got there because of who she is. But then when she's bitching about her job and these little menial things that piss her off, I'm just like, you are so ungrateful. You're crazy. People would kill to have your job and to be where you're at right now. Appreciate it, and God starts to fight.

[Participant 1]

That's a. That's a recurrent one. Yeah, that's a recurrent one.

[Esther Perel]

That's like a huge thing. And it's just like, you know, it's.

[Participant 1]

Any time I have a feeling, I have a feeling. I feel scared and hurt and lonely. Your feelings aren't valid, so don't feel that way.

[Esther Perel]

Well, that goes back to the. That goes in the beginning of the conversation where she's not recognizing my acts of service as caring, loving acts. And like I said, I'm not the most affectionate person. I'm not. I'm not a PDA guy.

[Participant 2]

When she had her hand on your shoulder before.

[Esther Perel]

Mm.

[Participant 2]

Did you feel it?

[Esther Perel]

I did. But, like, because of the position we're in right now and the amount of uncertainty, it doesn't feel genuine. It doesn't feel like she's, like, reaching out to comfort me or anything. I don't know how to take it. You know, I just. I don't know how to.

[Participant 2]

That's different. Yeah, that's very different from. It doesn't feel genuine is not the same as. I'm afraid to believe in it. I'm afraid what it means. I'm afraid to surrender to it. I'm afraid to actually accept it because it's what I so long for.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And her still, you know, like, she's so. She's very emotional, right? She is very emotional. So in moments of emotion like this, you know, it's hard to discover because you get in the den, she can flip, and she could be very cold. Right. So it's. What am I getting into? What is going on here? So I definitely kind of recoil, and that probably actually makes me more callous because I don't know how to react or what she's Looking for.

[Participant 2]

So you both hold each other.

[Esther Perel]

On.

[Participant 2]

High alert all the time.

[Participant 1]

Oh, I'm so scared.

[Participant 2]

She can go from hot to cold, but you can go from supportive to callous. And you wonder why this doesn't feel very safe and why it becomes so impossible to trust. Because if I accept and trust and lean into what's happening just now, God forbid, what may happen in the second after that I didn't anticipate. So I'm just going to keep myself the boxing ring I'm gonna avoid.

[Participant 1]

He runs.

[Esther Perel]

I just don't wanna fight you.

[Participant 1]

Drops a bomb and runs.

[Participant 2]

Mm.

[Participant 1]

And you're right into the. I'm hot and cold. I will scream, I love you. This hurt my feelings. And then when I realized it's not happening, I'm not getting the reaction. He's not hearing me. I go internal. I shut it down. And I'm like, well, then f you. I'm not calling you back. I'm not talking to you. And it's in my head. And then I spin for days.

[Participant 2]

Days.

[Participant 1]

And then I'm scared.

[Participant 2]

Each of them is able to describe their behavior, what they do, what happens to them. They may not necessarily connect the dots to what is actually being activated for them, but they are very insightful and honest and able to be accountable for it. So the choice here again, I decide. I'm going to emphasize the similarities. I'm going to emphasize what they do well because they're so mired in the mud and in what's broken and they are divorced. And they have come with one question. Are we salvageable? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Participant 1]

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[Participant 2]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Participant 1]

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[Participant 2]

So here's the thing I want to highlight just for a moment. You have managed to talk about your relationship, highs and lows, mine and yours, in a very collaborative way. You've managed to talk about your dance without slipping into it. And you're able to say, I know I do this and I know I do that. So this, to me is goal number one. Because it doesn't matter what you're going to do. If you don't change the filter, the gutter will get more full.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

And you miss each other. And you're persistent. You've done this for 10 years. God, it's not like you met yesterday. Let me ask you this. If each of you could pick one thing that you know, if you did it differently, the relationship would shift. How would it be? Let her go first on this one.

[Participant 1]

What I think would change our relationship.

[Participant 2]

That you would like to focus on.

[Participant 1]

It's. It's noticing you for you and being curious about what brought you there. What brought you to. When you say a statement, oh, where'd that come from? Oh, tell me about that. Without preparing a dissertation on why you should consider other things and why that's not technically correct, it would be literally just being curious about where you're going and appreciating what you're saying without trying to prove you wrong. Even when we have very different opinions. When you start off on a political rant, and I shouldn't even call them.

[Esther Perel]

Rants, I guess, yeah, it comes out as a rant. But I'm talking myself through it. I might not have the conclusion in my head right then and there. You know, when I explain those things to you, like when I say something that you take as an offense or unloving, unloving or something like that, I wish you could just take a step back and say, am I perceiving this wrong?

[Participant 1]

I'm struggling big time right now because I think that if you were to go into the court of evidence, if you were to say, here, let me present the evidence. Does this man care about this woman? And put the evidence in front unanimously, the answer is no.

[Esther Perel]

Is it? Is it?

[Participant 1]

Or could somebody look at it? That's my perception.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Or could somebody look at it from the other lens and say, you know, he does this, he does this, he does this, he does this. And they can point to things that I do to show that I do appreciate you and love you.

[Participant 1]

I know that I should see what you do as love in my brain. I'd rather you sit on the couch with me. I'd rather be affected. There's so many other things. I miss you, and we haven't connected in so long. I know, because you're angry that.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not angry. I'm not angry. Again, I just.

[Participant 2]

May I?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Participant 2]

Thank you. When you talk together and look how long you do, and it goes fine, but then there is that moment where one of you says one thing the other one doesn't agree with. And of the nine things you agree with, you don't say a thing. But on the one thing that you can't see yourself reflected in, that's the one you pick up on. Okay, so that is going to create more distance. I don't think you did this consciously, by the way. I don't think you intended this at all. That's why I'm highlighting it for you.

[Esther Perel]

So in my mind, what happened there was.

[Participant 2]

You wanted to reassure her that you're not mad and that she just.

[Esther Perel]

And then spill into the reasons why.

[Participant 2]

Yeah, that's more of the explanation. You are so mired in explaining yourself and justifying yourself and being sure it's accurate when, in fact, if you actually said me, too, I don't know if it's true. But if it's true that you say I, too, miss us and miss connecting, you would have a whole different moment.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

[Participant 2]

Okay. Shall we try it again?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Participant 2]

All right.

[Esther Perel]

I want those things, too. Like, I really do. That's why I'm here, you know, I want us to have that. I want that spark. I want that intimacy. It's hard sometimes, you know, it. It really is. Like, I'm. I'm. You know, I told you this before we came here. Like, I'm. I'm very on the defense, and I don't know what's going to happen. And breaking up again would just be like going through a whole divorce again. And I don't you know, in my brain, I guess, that thinks that if I keep a certain distance, it's not going to suck as much if we don't work out. And I also know. And I also know that you know that is not helping the situation.

[Participant 1]

So, you know, everything that I did to you before, with everything that I did when we were married.

[Esther Perel]

It wasn't all bad.

[Participant 1]

I don't want to do it.

[Esther Perel]

I don't want to do that.

[Participant 1]

The reason I'm here is I want to be able. I want you to see me differently. Not like I'm this needy, difficult person.

[Esther Perel]

I don't necessarily think you're a needy, difficult person. I don't like the person I was perceived as in the relationship. I was always the bad guy. I don't want to go back there.

[Participant 1]

You were the bad. No, you're right. I'm agreeing with you. I'm not saying I'm agreeing with you. I did always demonize you. I did always say, aren't I perfect?

[Participant 2]

The question I would like to ask you is, it's one thing to say, nobody's going to make me, but it's another thing to ask yourself, why do I need to be perfect? Because fundamentally, you think you're always right or misjudged. You operate from a place of, I can't make mistakes. This is why this curiosity bit is so important for you. Because it puts you in a zone of not knowing for a moment, of being uncertain, of being open to the unknown, to exploring, to discovering that there's something else rather than needing to know immediately.

[Participant 1]

It's annoying. I know I annoy myself with it.

[Participant 2]

But that started early on.

[Participant 1]

Yeah, I mean, I'm oldest daughter, so there's that. And I was just the good one, the responsible one, the one that handles it. And even now, I'm the one who plans family vacations for our extended family and pays for it and organizes everything and makes dinner reservations and da, da.

[Participant 2]

Da, da, da, da, da, da.

[Participant 1]

And then I get. I didn't even really get a thank you for that. I get resentful. I do it at work, too. That I have to be perfect. The expectation of the best is there. I feel it internally, all day, every day, like I am thinking about what I have to do next, what is the best. How can I manipulate the situation to get what I want to get, what I think is the best next? The war in my head says, if he would just let me do it.

[Participant 2]

Everything would be great and adore you for it.

[Participant 1]

Yes, please, please, please. You Know, let me do it. And then say, thank you very much for doing that. And then be really, really loving and affectionate.

[Participant 2]

Right. And anything short of that crushes you.

[Participant 1]

Oh, I feel it. I feel it. I feel very judged and unloved and feel like I'm a failure. Yeah.

[Participant 2]

By you or by him?

[Participant 1]

By him.

[Esther Perel]

So the phrase that was. Is used often is, you can't love me the way I want to be loved. That's. That's the recurring thing throughout the years.

[Participant 2]

When I listen to her, I'm reminded of the drama of the gifted child. It's a book I read a long time ago by Alice Miller. It's the book that really introduced me to the concept of conditional love. It's not that she needs to be perfect. It's as much as how perfect do I need to be before I can finally receive the love of my parent? That is the conditional love. I can only be loved if I'm pleasing, if I satisfy you, if I take care of you, if I do everything, and if I do it so perfect that you don't have to worry about me. One split second she said this now a few times. I do everything. Nobody has to worry about me. I raised myself and I am left with the whole wondering, what does it take to be loved? And that's why she says, you can't love me the way I want to be loved. And I chose that as the title for the session because if we were to meet again, this is where we would go. How were you unloved? What is it that you're wanting him to make up for? What is the rage that kicks in for you every time he misses the clue? And he, in a way, reinforces your worst belief about yourself, that no matter how perfect and accomplished and worthy and responsible you are, you still can't be loved the way you want to. And then you find yourself a partner who keeps telling you, I love you plenty, but I do it this way. I do it with service. I do it this way. And unbeknownst to him, every time he says, but this is my love language, he's reinforcing your belief that he really cannot love you the way that you want to. And that's one of the pain points of this relationship. So you each do things that actually make the other person respond in the way that you actually want the least.

[Participant 1]

Yes. Yes.

[Participant 2]

Right.

[Participant 1]

So I have to start from a place of appreciating what is done.

[Participant 2]

It would change a lot.

[Participant 1]

Do you think it would change a lot with how you interact with me?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. I mean, any difference is going to enact a change, I'm sure.

[Participant 2]

But that means that each of you needs to decide. I'm going to do this. This is back to the question I asked you before. What's one thing you would do differently? Because in effect, where you land in the gutter is that each of you feels rejected. Unappreciated and rejected. Yes. If that's the case, you have your answer about whether you should stay together or not on the other end. That doesn't mean that you're going to do better with somebody else, because these are skills you need to learn. You can explain them from the past, and we can do a lot of insight, which that is what you would also do with a therapist. But ultimately, there needs to be a change in the way you respond, and that means in the way you listen. Do you ever speak with your hands? Do you reach out with your hands to.

[Esther Perel]

I don't touch people. Like, I don't. I'm not like that.

[Participant 2]

You don't touch at all.

[Esther Perel]

I don't really do calming, soothing. That doesn't really work for me.

[Participant 2]

Meaning.

[Esther Perel]

I don't need that. I don't need to be touched. I don't need to. To feel needed or wanted or, you know, comfortable, accepted. So I guess because I don't need it, I don't give it, which I know is probably a problem. Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Does your boy need it?

[Esther Perel]

What's that?

[Participant 2]

Does your little boy need it?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, he comes up to me a lot.

[Participant 2]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

He comes up and he'll snuggle me. I'll snuggle him right back, you know. But if it's not initiated, I don't.

[Participant 2]

Right. So you see him. That was once you.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

You need it. You may have learned not to probably. You may have had hands put on you. That didn't feel very clear.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I was hit a lot.

[Participant 2]

By parents both.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. But I fully deserved it. And that's kind of where I think she thinks I'm gonna go there. But I don't. I don't really have the need to go where. Like hitting kids and stuff.

[Participant 1]

I'd kill you. And I. No, it makes me super uncomfortable the times you have hitting.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. It was just a spanking, like, don't do that again kind of thing. It wasn't like, fit of rage or anything like that.

[Participant 1]

It's scary, though. You know it is. I know where you're coming from, and I know what you're. But when you get upset, it's scary for him, for Me? You're a very intimidating and scary person.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And I'm like the timid one in the family. I don't do half the stuff my parents.

[Participant 2]

That just means that they did more extreme things.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

And that your body shut down.

[Participant 1]

I've noticed. The only time he will touch me voluntarily is if we're having sex or about to have sex or you want to have sex. It's the only time, really.

[Esther Perel]

Doesn't dawn on me like it doesn't again, because it's not. I don't need that to feel a certain way. Listen, I feel close.

[Participant 2]

There may be times when you're not thirsty, but you may offer someone a glass of water.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Participant 2]

So this notion of I don't need it, therefore I don't do it, and therefore this is it.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that at all. Realize that I probably should do that because she needs that, like. Absolutely. But it's just not. It wasn't programmed into me to do that.

[Participant 2]

No, it was programmed out of you.

[Esther Perel]

Out of. Yeah, maybe it was programmed out of me.

[Participant 2]

It was programmed out of you.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Whatever you see when you look at your little 9 year old is quite similar to what you once needed and loved.

[Esther Perel]

Right? Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.

[Participant 2]

And there's no doubt that on the moments when she's spinning and getting agitated or anxious, to hold her and not say anything would go a long way.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

Because it would communicate in the most basic way, you're not alone. I'm right here.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Participant 2]

You don't have to hold it all on your shoulders.

[Participant 1]

I would hear that or feel that as so much more comforting than you telling me how to fix it.

[Participant 2]

It would help you tremendously and it would change the whole cycle. But you also need to know that when you emote for him, that signals shut down.

[Participant 1]

I know.

[Participant 2]

I don't know why though, because that's what it was like there.

[Participant 1]

So it really has nothing to do with me being.

[Participant 2]

It's the implicit memory. It does have to do with you because you are agitated. But his response to you doesn't come from you. His response comes from how he learned to protect himself, basically. So he shuts down at a time when you would want him to put his arms around you is when his shoulders go up, his neck goes down, his tension comes in, his breath becomes more shallow. Shut every feeling down and use intellect, which of course doesn't work on you at all. It just makes you more agitated, which is making him repeat himself for the end time and reason again because everything else is really holding it together. And he has a nine year old, but so do you and these nine year olds end up having a relationship with each other?

[Participant 1]

Yeah.

[Participant 2]

So the adults need to calm them down. While you're asking something that is totally legit and understandable, there's also a part of you that may want to even go to him and say, I'm all over the place. Hold me. You can even ask. Or you can learn to hold you for a moment so that you can come down one notch, which then gives his body a different message, which may allow him to then come more closer. You know this is a circle. Yeah. So whichever place you do a small shift, all the other pieces will need to adjust.

[Participant 1]

Where Should We Begin With? Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian At Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.