I Gave Him an Ultimatum. Now What?

Summary

Episode Summary: "I Gave Him an Ultimatum. Now What?"
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Date: May 11, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply vulnerable episode, Esther Perel guides a couple through the tangled web of their relationship: an ultimatum on ethical non-monogamy and the pain of living secrets. The issue isn't just about polyamory—it's about transparency, boundaries, the costs of compartmentalization, and the fallout from unmet ultimatums. The session dives into histories of emotional survival, attachment, and the difficulty of transforming ingrained patterns. Ultimately, the episode interrogates whether love and compatibility can coexist when core values clash, and what happens when the decision to move forward can no longer be a joint one.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Problem: Ultimatums and Secrecy (01:50–04:49)

• The situation: The female partner (FP) is a transparent, intentional solo polyamorist feeling suffocated by her boyfriend’s (MP) compartmentalized, secretive relationships.
• MP maintains two monogamous relationships where his other partners are unaware of FP’s existence; he consistently hides her presence.
  • FP: "If I come to his place, he basically has to like steam clean it so there's no trace of me." (01:50)
• FP gave an ultimatum: Become transparent or the relationship ends. He failed to follow through; the pattern has repeated.

2. Relationship Orientations: Polyamory vs. Compartmentalization (05:09–08:23)

• Both identify as solo polyamorous; but:
  • FP: Practices relationship anarchy with transparency, avoiding traditional escalators (no marriage, cohabitation). "I am my own primary partner." (05:52)
  • MP: Historically secretive, having open relationships in name, but functionally hiding details and emotional connections.
    • Perel: “There's not much poly in that, by the way.” (07:58)
• The cultural misalignment: FP lives by design and intention; MP by adaptation and survival mechanisms.

3. The Origins of Evasiveness: Childhood Trauma (11:43–13:41)

• MP’s background: Grew up in the Church of Scientology, lost emotional connection to mother and sister due to their immersion in the church and mental health crises. Learned to be a “double agent.”
• Developed hyper-independence, promiscuity, and avoidant attachment as survival strategies.
  • Perel’s insight: Sex became a tool for limited-liability closeness, fulfilling emotional needs while maintaining dissociative safety. (13:41)

4. The Toll of Compartmentalization (18:59–21:17)

• MP admits: "I'm good at [compartmentalizing]…shut off, you know, where they can, like, do something crazy and then be very normal." (19:08)
• Perel probes: Pleasing others at the cost of agency; unable/unwilling to end relationships or make hard decisions, shifting responsibility to FP.

Notable Quote

• FP: “If I would just be happy to carry on like that, he would never choose to end things, even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me.” (21:55)

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Exploring Boundaries, Empathy, and Pain (22:17–25:44)

• FP’s boundary: Refuses to remain a hidden aspect of MP’s life. Asks for a simple form of acknowledgment—her photo not being hidden—feeling this basic visibility is crucial.

  • FP: “Once you feel like your life is in a state where you could have a photograph of me …that you don't have to take down every time somebody comes over, then that's when we can get back together…” (22:17)

• Perel observes: Her desire is small, revealing the deprivation and need to belong, even within nontraditional structures.

• Emotional gymnastics: FP feels pressure to be endlessly flexible under the ethos of relationship anarchy—learning that her boundaries also matter.

  • FP: “I broke my brain trying to figure out how to… accept the fact that my partner had these monogamous relationships that were complete erasure of me…” (24:17)
  • Recognizes that both her health (and his) demand something unsustainable cannot continue.

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The Cost of Honesty and Loss (26:04–29:21)

• MP’s challenge: Expresses yearning to move away from hiding, but dreads hurting others and losing emotional safety.

  • MP: “I'm tired of hiding. I'm good at it, but I also can't wait to be free of that…” (26:04)
  • Perel: This is not a simple honesty issue, but a reworking of an entire psychic survival system.

• FP: Experiences conflicting empathy—understands MP deeply due to knowledge of his history, but recognizes how it has become self-betrayal.

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Self-Betrayal and Repeated Loops (37:09–40:57)

• Perel points out: FP keeps reentering the dynamic, torn between uniqueness of connection and inability to accept being hidden.

  • Perel: “Now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you.” (37:09)

• FP struggles with her capacity for empathy, realizing sometimes it becomes “degrading.”

• MP: Admits to care, love, and seeing FP, but fundamentally cannot behave differently—trapped in his own pattern.

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Empathy for Present Pain (41:00–44:19)

• Both partners realize empathy must be for both present and past. FP apologizes for lacking empathy for MP’s current losses.
• MP: “I wish I could take back time to be super honest... there’s nothing wrong. They treat me well. I treat them well…It’s just that… I shouldn't be secretive.” (43:10–44:19)

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What the Other Relationships Provide (45:26–47:18)

• After FP confesses she disregards the value of MP's other relationships, Perel uncovers that the “collusion” is mutual, with both partners misrepresenting realities to themselves and each other.
  • Perel: “You don't really ask because a part of you wants to think that what you have is so special. …And he doesn't really tell you because… he has pretended that none of this was that important.” (45:22–45:46)
• MP: Other relationships provide “cocoon,” comfort, stability—emotional safety he lacked growing up.

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Accepting Limits & Moving Beyond the Loop (47:33–57:33)

• Central insight: The problem is not just honesty or polyamory, but the deep psychology of avoidance and dependence on comfort.
  • Perel: “His relationships are more meaningful to him than he has allowed himself ever to feel. And your limits are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel.” (54:43)
• Breaking the cycle requires both to accept their limits:
  • FP: Might love him, but allowing the situation to persist would violate her boundaries and values.
  • MP: Coming to terms with emotional losses and what true transparency demands.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On grief and limits:
  Perel: “The more you grieve, the more you know you loved.” (58:28)
• On difference between loving someone and being able to build a life:
  Perel: “The people that we can deeply love, and then the question is, can we make a life with them? … Maybe reached its limit in terms of life story.” (49:36)
• On inability to even be friends under current circumstances:
  FP: “The compartmentalization doesn't allow for a deep friendship any more than it allows for a partnership.” (61:10)
• On who decides:
  Perel: “In the beginning of the session, he said, I never write my own story. At the end of the session, it becomes clear that she will have to make the decision for where the story goes.” (61:30)

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Conclusion: Where Do They Stand? (52:48–end)

• Decision rests with FP: MP has begun making changes, but is nowhere near transparent or disentangled enough to meet her needs.
• Perel’s summary: This is not a joint decision; it's about each person honoring their values and limits. They may love each other deeply, but may not be able to share a life, even under the broadest, most flexible relationship structures.
• FP’s realization: Disappointment and frustration are honest descriptors; there may be no unknown stone left unturned.

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Notable Timestamps

• Ultimatum and secrecy issue introduced: 01:50–04:49
• Defining ‘solo poly’ and differences in practice: 05:09–08:23
• MP’s childhood and learned evasiveness: 11:43–13:41
• Admission of compartmentalization: 18:59
• Discussion of boundaries and the ‘pretzel’ of empathy: 22:17–24:45
• MP on his loss of other relationships: 41:08–43:10
• The mutual misrepresentation/collusion: 45:26–46:41
• Esther’s key summary insight (on limits and loss): 54:10–55:10
• Final realization and who must decide: 61:10–end

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In sum:
The episode unflinchingly explores the core of repeated, unsolvable relational pain: when one partner cannot, for deep historic reasons, meet the minimally necessary needs of the other, even when love and understanding are abundant. Perel’s empathetic, incisive guidance makes space for grief and shows that sometimes, honoring one's limits is an act of love—to oneself, and paradoxically, to the other.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Colette Travel Services. Solo travel is all about exploring, touring with freedom. And with Colette, that freedom comes with confidence. Their guided tours are designed by travelers for travelers so you can experience destinations you've always dreamt of exploring through the lens of a local. Solo travelers can now save up to a thousand dollars on select small group explorations, tours and departures. Start your [e-mail] estere that's go C O L L E T T.

[Partner (Male)]

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[Partner (Female)]

He integrates into my friend group incredibly. Like my partners, we literally travel the world. But he still is in these two other monogamous relationships that they don't know I exist. If I come to his place, he basically has to like steam clean it so there's no trace of me. Like it's very, very, very unhealthy.

[Partner (Male)]

She has been dating with intention where she wants partners that are open communicators. How I've been always is seeing multiple people typically hiding a lot of things. Where our problems come in is a big part of my life is these other relationships that are closed off to others.

[Partner (Female)]

I always ask him, I'm like, what if something happens to you?

[Partner (Male)]

What's the move?

[Partner (Female)]

Then we all just meet at your hospital bed.

[Esther Perel]

When they come in, they present as a couple that is grappling with a misalignment around ethical non monogamy and her wishing for more transparency and his living a life of intense compartmentalization. But very quickly it becomes clear that that's not the only thing here happening. This is as much a session about polyamory as it is a session where one person lets their partner know something needs to change. I need a response from You. I need us to make a decision. And repeatedly, the partner does not do so.

[Partner (Female)]

He has fully agreed with me that he needs to make this change. He had told me he was going to end things with them or have these conversations by the new year, which did not happen. So I just said, you know, we need space.

[Esther Perel]

There's so many crossroad moments where often one person finds themselves making ultimatums. Be it about commitment, be it about having children, be it about revealing a secret, be it about being presented to the family, hoping that it would put the right amount of pressure on their partner. But in fact, they don't necessarily respond this way. And so they have to carry out their ultimatum. And the decision is, well, if you don't follow this request or the expectations, then I must go. But they don't want to go. Recently, she put an ultimatum with the request that she wanted to become known to his other partners. He did not meet the ultimatum. They broke up. This is not the first time that they go through this very same loop. And when they are apart, they remember how good they have it together. And so this is when they come wondering, what kind of a future do we have?

[Partner (Male)]

Can we find a way to be partners still? Are we able to find a way to be on the same page and have that perfect type of relationship? Where do we start?

[Esther Perel]

Let's meet and give me a sense as to how we landed here today.

[Partner (Female)]

Okay. So I think the important thing to know is that we both identify as solo polyamorous. And that's actually how we met was on a dating app where we both disclosed that, and that was an immediate alignment. And I also practice relationship anarchy. So I am very open minded to all sorts of different relationships, and I want different relationships in my life that work for me and the situation I'm in now. And that's important for me and my partner.

[Esther Perel]

And the solo is you first. Your primary partner is yourself. Because it can mean different things for different people.

[Partner (Female)]

Right. For me, the solo is that I would never get on a relationship escalator with anybody. I have no desire for marriage or cohabitation or financial entanglement. So I guess in that case, I am my own primary partner.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And for you?

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, I mean, it's very similar. I think I actually didn't have an identity maybe until somebody brought that to me of, like, you operate this way. I've always had multiple partners, but kept it fairly secret until I was in a relationship that was monogamous. Ish. But then on the other side, I was cheating and I didn't want to ever do that again. So once I ended that relationship, I was like, okay, now I'm going to speak more openly. And that's sort of what I've done. Eight, nine years, I think, but then not really doing the follow ups needed. Where it's like somebody asks where I'm at, I'd rather not say anything or potentially lie. Where it's created these monogamous relationships. Even though they know I see other people, I can't really speak openly about my partners with them, which I want to do.

[Esther Perel]

How many Dems?

[Partner (Male)]

It's two others and they know of each other. I mean, they know that I see other people. Yes, but not full names or they don't want to meet other people. So it becomes a challenge. Even though they know I'm with other people, they just want to be with me, but keep it out of their mind. Which I agree is not healthy for them either. But it's choices they make. But I also protect that too. I think a little too much rather than speaking more openly. And that's where I'm trying to build for myself, for my life, more open, more honest.

[Esther Perel]

How highly would you rate yourself on the evasiveness scale?

[Partner (Male)]

Oh, very high. I'm good at it.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. You just gave us a wonderful demo too. Yeah, it slips. It's like a fish, you know, they ask, but they don't really ask. But I don't ever really tell. But I told them in the beginning, but they don't know eight years later. Yeah, yeah. There's not much poly in that, by the way.

[Partner (Male)]

No, I know, and I know that too.

[Esther Perel]

Like I take the same in respect of polyamory. This is probably not a good example for sure.

[Partner (Female)]

And I think that's how we got here was, you know, we were seeing each other very casually in the very beginning. And then we had some profound experiences together where we realized when we traveled together, when we were out in our community together, we had the most amazing time and the most amazing connection. And so then I wanted to shift towards more partnership because we were so very aligned and the connection was so deep. And that's when I began to realize that his other partners were unaware of me outside of a concept potentially, and that he has full access to my whole life. And I never got a single glimpse into any of his life, which over the years I began to realize is because he spends his whole time managing these parallel realities that can never intersect. So essentially there is now room for me and no ability to share anything with me. You know, like, you become so close to somebody, and you can't reach out to them and ask for help because they have to pretend in that moment you don't exist. And that's been our breaking point.

[Esther Perel]

They meet on this app field, and they both present themselves as solo poly. And so there was a sense that their reality is based on the same set of assumptions, but in fact, they realized that they have been part of two very different relationship cultures. His is the culture of secrecy. Hers is the culture of transparency. Hers is the culture that she has voluntarily anchored herself into and made a conscious choice about with lots of intentionality and awareness. His, as he says in his first sentence, my identity was kind of assigned to me. I don't really have a sense of identity, but people looked at how I dealt with things, and then they told me, oh, this is what you may be, without much investigation of what that represented. And so it is at the same time confusing, but also it comes with quite a lot of pain. This need for compartmentalization, this need for your left arm not to know there's a right one and to keep things apart and hidden from each other. Where from? Because the discussion is less here about, is this correct polyamory or. It's definitely correct compartmentalization. It's correct hiding. It's correct obfuscating. It's correct evasiveness. It's correct half answers. And of course, you will talk in circles. It's meant to do that. And how many years are you at this?

[Partner (Female)]

Two.

[Esther Perel]

Two.

[Partner (Female)]

Two years of us having these discussions. And then we had a break last year, and the agreement was that he would be in a situation where we would be open with everything by the end of 2025. And when I realized that wasn't going to happen is when we went on the break.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, okay.

[Partner (Male)]

And honestly, for me, part of that comes from childhood, for sure. To try to make a really long story as short as I can, I grew up in a church that is quite different. So I hid that from everybody just because it gets judged.

[Esther Perel]

And tell me, what church?

[Partner (Male)]

Church. Scientology. Growing up, my mother and my sister, big parts of that. My sister is gone. When I was young teenager, like, she left to go full time in there, and my mother had something happen within it that she wasn't around either. Mentally. Full psychotic episode. And my father ended up not able to stay with me and my mother. But I have to now not only try to live my life as a teenager, but also be with my mom, protect my mom in a way, but also act as A double agent to the church, to my father. All these things one made me grow up really fast, become hyper independent for sure.

[Esther Perel]

And did you have to hide your mom's situation for sure. And was there anyone to protect you?

[Partner (Male)]

No, I think not. Having both of my. My mom and my sister in my life at that time. I don't know if that has. Because I became promiscuous and was never really wanting full relationship. Super avoidant of that, maybe avoiding a connection. I do feel there's areas around that for sure.

[Esther Perel]

He just said something so important, but he muttered through it and didn't even finish the sentence. And yet I heard in this one line so many keys for what could become the session. He talks about how there was nobody to protect him, that he lost his mother and he lost his sister. And then instantly he also says but I became very promiscuous at that time and I never really wanted a full relationship because I became super avoidant but with sex. So he finds a way to connect with the women, but with limited liability. He gets his needs met. He gets to feel close, he gets to experience tenderness. But at the same time he gets to experience a dissociation of the need that he has for the intimacy and for the connection. He can be on both sides of this polarity, connected and disconnected at the same time. And it becomes a major part of his life, his promiscuity. It looks like it is about sex, but it is actually using the language, the behavior of sex in order to satisfy deep emotional needs while at the same time masking them. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin Comes from quo. If your team's communication is messy, customers feel it. Missed messages, dropped threads, slow replies. It's one of the easiest ways to lose momentum. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O Q. The business communication system built so you never miss a call. KUO isn't just a phone system, it's a smart one. AI automatically logs, calls, generates summaries and flags next steps so nothing falls through the cracks. And it can even qualify leads or respond after hours so your business stays on even when you're off. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number, so no more missed messages or dropped conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, replies are faster, and customers actually feel taken care of. Money is on the line. Always say hello with Quo. Try Kuo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com begin that's Q-U-O.com begin Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Osea. Our skin changes as we age and while there's no product on earth that will give you back your 20 year old face, skincare is about more than chasing youth. It's about nourishing the skin you have with gentle high quality ingredients. That's what OSEA can provide. Osea's Andaria Algae Body Oil is a fast absorbing non greasy body oil made with andaria seaweed. The result is deep hydration, a healthy looking glow and skin that looks enfeebled feels better. I've created my own little OSEA routine. I use it in the morning to make my skin look and feel fresh and hydrated and at night it's a lovely way to wind down at the end of a long day and to make sure my skin has everything it needs to feel nourished overnight. Get a spring worthy glow with clean clinically tested skincare from osea and right now they have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your First Order site wide with code [e-mail] that's O S E-A Malibu.com. Support for where should we begin Comes from Quince Setting up what you wear day to day can really improve your mood. Leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable and still put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. That's why Queen's is a go to. Queen's has all the wardrobe staples for spring. 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34, lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still look put together and clean. 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt and everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Lately I've been eyeing the Barcelona Polarized Acetate sunglasses. Now that it's finally sunny out, I've been reaching for sunglasses a lot more and I feel like I could use a refresh. The Barcelona glasses look like one of these pairs that you can just throw on with anything and feel more put together. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Queen's for free shipping on Your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com begin for free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.com begin.

[Partner (Male)]

But I also know I can compartmentalize a crazy amount yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you surprise yourself sometimes?

[Partner (Male)]

Somewhat. You know, like, it's almost like, I hate to say it, but like, serial killer, like, shut off, you know, where they can, like, do something crazy and then be very normal. And it's not quite at that same level. I'm not wanting any harm for anybody. I want everybody to be happy. And that's another aspect of my life that I think I need to also realize I can't always be the nice guy or make other people happy. And I am a people pleaser, I guess. Like, I'm not the writer of my own life.

[Esther Perel]

And I kind of follow in this logic of pleasing and wanting others to be happy. Do you think you should pursue her or you should set her free

[Partner (Male)]

in our relationship here?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Partner (Male)]

I think there's still questions of our alignment. Right. For me, I want to live a different life that is aligned with the way she is and operates. But then there's other things that I'm like, Well, I think we look at life a little differently. And like she said, I've been introduced to all her friends and it seems like, wow, I haven't introduced her my friends really, but it's very different. Like, I don't really see my friends often and I don't have the type of community that she creates. I don't share a lot of my life.

[Esther Perel]

Do you ever voluntarily just tell something not. Or do you wait for questions?

[Partner (Male)]

I usually.

[Esther Perel]

She already answered. I just saw her head shake.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, yeah, it's usually questions. Right. Something where I'm not sharing much. I keep everything super close. I don't know. I, I.

[Esther Perel]

What's it like to listen to him right now?

[Partner (Female)]

I mean, I, I know all of this. Yeah, I can tell he has a lot to say and also is having trouble answering the question that you ask.

[Esther Perel]

Well, I asked if you are in your pleaser mode, would you define her happiness as I pursue you, or would you define her happiness as setting her free? And he answered pretty much the way you would expect he would answer, I have a little of this and a little of that.

[Partner (Female)]

Yeah. Right down the middle.

[Esther Perel]

And basically, I don't know. And basically, maybe those are not decisions I make in my life. They're made for me.

[Partner (Female)]

Yes. Like even taking the breaks, I am always the one to make the decision. And if I would just be happy to carry on like that, he would never choose to end things, even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me.

[Esther Perel]

So this puts you in a place where you have to take autonomy all the way.

[Partner (Female)]

Yeah, Like, I have Clear boundaries. And my boundary around being a transparent part of the life of the people that I love is a boundary for me at this point. And like on our last break, I said something very simple. Once you feel like your life is in a state where you could have a photograph of me in your condo that you don't have to take down every time somebody comes over, then that's when we can get back together and talk about how we move forward. Because to me, that would mean that I'm a transparent part of his life. That can be seen.

[Esther Perel]

Of course, I continuously sense that she doesn't give herself the permission to experience the sadness and the vulnerability that is inherent in what she really would like with him. When I hear her talk about wanting just her picture on the wall, I'd actually become sad because it's like, is that all you want? It's very small, this little picture. And at the same time, I feel the deprivation. I feel the sense that regardless of the anarchy, there is a desire to be integrated, to be seen to be known by others, not to be hidden, not to be somebody's secret. And that all of this is very painful and also angry making. So it comes out in the discourse of polyamory rather than in the plight of her heart. Given that you practice relational anarchy, is it hard to end? You feel like you should be able to bend to anything. You should be pliable, flexible, understanding, empathic, his therapist, his lover.

[Partner (Female)]

I broke my brain trying to figure out how to. To accept the fact that my partner had these monogamous relationships that were complete erasure of me and that that should be okay from a relationship anarchy perspective, right? Like consenting adults choosing to interact in a way that makes sense for them and that's right for them. I tried, but then I.

[Esther Perel]

How much of a pretzel did you become?

[Partner (Female)]

A very, very tight pretzel. And I realized that it's not a healthy relationship format that I can be in. And I don't believe it's healthy for anybody. I think he recognizes the work he has to do on being more open and honest and living proper poly. And when your other relationships require you to hide everything, you can't even learn or exercise that or even try to be different. But then I felt horrible being like, you have to end these other relationships to be with me, because that also felt outside of relationship anarchy or like an ultimatum. But then I. I just realized at this point, it's holding my boundary like both can't exist in a healthy way.

[Esther Perel]

You wanted him to end them or you asked him to let them know that he's not just sleeping with other women, that he actually is two years with you, how many years with the others?

[Partner (Female)]

Four years with us together, but I would say two years that we've been.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you have four years and the other two.

[Partner (Male)]

The primary other is one is eight years and one is three.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you're loyal. You don't commit, but you stick around. You get attached in your way. In your way.

[Partner (Male)]

I mean, the thing is, like, there's nothing bad in these relationships. Like, really there's not. The only challenge really is this is living that super honest life, which I also want for myself. I'm tired of hiding. I'm good at it, but I also can't wait to be free of that and actually live with intention.

[Esther Perel]

So when you made the agreement with

[Partner (Male)]

her

[Esther Perel]

that you would come out and be transparent, what happened when you thought about not ending but just letting them know? I live in a triad, primarily.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah. It's a very tough thing for me to be super vulnerable in that way. I think. I always think of this very negative reaction that they will be affected by what I say.

[Esther Perel]

And if I tell my long girlfriend of eight years that I actually have other women that I'm in a relationship with, she will feel that. What? I lied to her. Yeah. Everything looked fine, but it wasn't.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

She told me I could be sexual with other people, but she told me, keep your feelings for me. And all that time I didn't.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, is it that. So I would be hurting her.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah. But even now, like, I've finally gotten some good therapy to look at my own boundaries. And I am having those breakup conversations now because I know that it's unfair to them and I know that it's not a workable thing for me. And I'm going through those stages right now.

[Esther Perel]

You're going through these conversations with the person or in your head?

[Partner (Male)]

No, with the person for sure.

[Esther Perel]

And what's it been like to taste a very different way of being in the world?

[Partner (Male)]

Feels good to be more honest, for sure. But it also still has that visceral reaction that I'm destroying somebody, you know, which is not. Not what I want to do. End sync for her.

[Esther Perel]

It's okay. That's the vulnerability. Sometimes it hurts. It hurts to lie and it hurts to say the truth.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah. But. I don't know. In my attempts to make everything okay or to follow maybe others leads or not be super straight and honest, I'm actually, I know, doing a disservice to them as well. I'm not sitting here thinking I'm innocent in any way.

[Esther Perel]

I have a lot of empathy for how painful it is for her that he makes these promises that he can't keep. But I also understand why he can't keep them. He was left alone with his psychotic mother. He was the go between the mother and the church, the mother and the father. Every adult around him was dangerous, and to be under such surveillance made him understand that the mechanism for survival was for nobody to know anything that would endanger him. I don't know the details of what he means when he describes himself as the double agent, for example, but I do understand that this is not just a basic skills training about how to become more honest and more forthcoming. This is a complete transformation of his entire psyche, being and survival system. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Aloha so many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a Aloha Protein Bars. This isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture. Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha Protein Bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com a l o h a.com Aloha Taste that Grows Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. Whenever you're starting a big new endeavor, it's normal to think what if I fail? Especially with something potentially life changing like starting a business. But maybe a better question what if I don't fail? What if I succeed? Even more than I expected, Shopify can help you get closer to unlocking that answer. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just making a name for themselves, their design studio is equipped to help you create exactly the online presence you envision with hundreds of ready to use website templates. Plus you can also create entire email and social media campaigns with ease with the help of Shopify's marketing tools so you can meet your customers where they are. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify Today. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Esther you can go to shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from talkaboutpd.com let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of and it turns out it's more common than you think. Peyronie's disease, or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self esteem, and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about pd. The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peyronie's disease, visit talkaboutpd.com you learn to survive and you still practice those same coping skills in an environment today that is completely different and actually requires something else from you and offers you something else. You have a super understanding person here who is not insensitive to anything you just told, but who knows the difference between you living with secrets and her being a secret. And when you are a secret it eats you from within when you are a secret and you don't want it and there's no reason for you to because you made a whole set of life choices and in order for exactly that to avoid having to be in that situation.

[Partner (Female)]

Yeah, I've been clear that the hardest thing for me is feeling like a secret. It makes you feel like almost a mistress even though you're not and I'm not doing anything wrong. And I didn't ever say please break up with these people, but I did say please be open and honest. And I said here's a lot of resources like here's all the intro to poly resources like maybe share these. But I also understand if people aren't coming from that mentality that you know, you kind of have to want to do that. So but that would have been my approach. And it just got to the point where I don't see a path forward other than us almost starting over from a place of no secrecy. And I know it's probably hard to imagine what our connection is like based on what we're saying here, but honestly, when we're out in the world and when we're traveling and when we're with our community, I've almost never experienced anything like it. Like we're so similar and it's so incredible and we have the most fun and there's so much love. So I think it makes it more like the pain of that not existing in between those moments is just something I can't make work anymore for me. Your whole life is spent managing these secret relationships and not necessarily even making time for one on one time for us.

[Esther Perel]

What makes you amenable to live in this situation which is rationally, completely outside of the values and the principles that you have chosen?

[Partner (Female)]

Again.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, you're gonna tell me the specialness of our connection and then that's your circling around. I think it's beautiful. I'm not for a moment minimizing, but it doesn't give you an out either. It's like. But it's so special, but it's so unique. But what we have is so incredible. And then I can't take it anymore. And then I take a break and then I loosen my muscles and then I get back into the ring and then it's so beautiful. And then how could I ever give up on something like this? And then is how could I ever continue to tolerate something like this? So now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you.

[Partner (Female)]

So, yeah, I learned a lot about where he came from and what he's been through. And I have incredibly deep empathy for that. And it helps me contextualize what he does and it helps me understand it. And sometimes knowledge comes to a detriment to yourself, I guess, because I know how much good there is in him and I understand why it's so difficult. And so I make a lot of space for that. And I think that's just what love is.

[Esther Perel]

And then you reach the point where your love for him becomes degrading of you. Yeah. Change the world. The word didn't sit well with you. Change

[Partner (Female)]

just never sees me. No matter how much empathy and space I give, I just realize maybe I'll never be seen in that way.

[Partner (Male)]

I mean, I do see you. I just am not necessarily super forthcoming. I'm not very vocal on emotion. When we're apart, it's not that I don't see you anymore and it shuts off for me. I will think of you often. I don't operate the way a lot of people do where they like think of somebody or see something and then immediately messaging that person. I know that's a normal thing, but it's not that I don't love you or see you. It's I don't know how to change. I've become more aware of what I'm

[Esther Perel]

doing because you're bringing it back on you. And then every time you rope her into this empathic attunement of your situation, if you can stay with her for a moment.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, I mean, I'm mainly trying to say I understand where.

[Esther Perel]

So that's a short sentence. You can say it in a. In one sentence, too.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah. You know, I know it's coming back to me, but I'm also trying to give us a chance to move forward in the right way. And I've never had more tough conversations. I know you're not there, so you don't see it, but it's tough because on the other side, there's other people that don't want things to end or change.

[Partner (Female)]

I know, but you have a choice of your life, Right?

[Partner (Male)]

I know.

[Partner (Female)]

If you need to change a situation with a partner, you have full autonomy to make that choice. It's for yourself.

[Partner (Male)]

And as I said, like eight years, a long time of somebody being in my life. And I've had two full on breakup conversations that are so hard, that are so out of my norm. I know there's no easy way and I have to do it the hard way.

[Esther Perel]

Do you wish that she would understand that more for sure how hard it is to have these conversations, how much you are hurting people you care about deeply. You get a lot of understanding for your past, but you also live in the present. And you can ask for some understanding about the challenges of your presentation, even if it's late, even if it's after years, whatever. Because you've so presented it as they're monogamous. And I am just the one floating through that to acknowledge that these breakups, which have been the most steady relationships in your life, are tearing you apart.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, but I also take responsibility in my action to it, you know.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Partner (Male)]

And I feel terrible. Like.

[Esther Perel]

Correct. Correct. And you can judge yourself a little bit. And you can also acknowledge your feelings about it. Not one wipes out the other.

[Partner (Female)]

I realize this is an area I have not been able to be Kind or empathetic around how hard this would be. And I think in an unfair way, I just say that I would never be in this situation. So I can't understand it. But I hear that if I'm so understanding about the past, I also need to be understanding about the present. And I haven't been, probably more, because the present does seem to directly affect me. So it's a really hard balance to strike, I think. And I am sorry for that.

[Partner (Male)]

I wish I could take back time to be super honest. I mean, even in the breakup of eight years, I mean, from when we first were talking, I hadn't met other people, really, that were living that way and living truth. Like, I had no examples of that. So a lot has changed in understanding how to do it. At least open honesty, not hurting anybody. And I know I'm hurting people. I know that that's happening. And I'm at a breaking point, too, that I don't want to do that anymore for my life. But the other side is also. It's a big loss as well. And it's a loss for me. Like, these are friends that won't be friends. So I lose real people. That's not just so simple as, yeah, you're not happy. Like, Well, I am actually kind of happy. There's nothing wrong. They treat me well. I treat them well. It's just that it's not aligned with how I should live and I shouldn't be secretive.

[Esther Perel]

And what you're saying now, have you said to her before? Yeah, the part about your loss.

[Partner (Female)]

Yeah, yeah, we have talked about that. And I think it's really just hard for me to understand what those relationships could be like and what those relationships add to his life. To be honest, all I see is him move through the world in a very open, authentic, beautiful way with me and my friends. And all I can picture is a completely different person when he's with these other people that everything else is hidden from. And, you know, they don't go on adventures and they don't travel and they don't like. It's just hard for me to understand and conceptualize.

[Esther Perel]

Do you ask.

[Partner (Female)]

Yeah, I've asked what he gets from these relationships?

[Esther Perel]

No, that's not a question. Because you already have decided that it's inferior to what he has with you. It's not a real question.

[Partner (Female)]

That's fair. I don't ask in a curious way.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. So here's the collusion. You don't really ask because a part of you wants to think that what you have is so special. How could he say no to that? And he doesn't really tell you because until now he has pretended that none of this was that important.

[Partner (Female)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So here's a moment of change. You know, it's not just. It's hard for them, it's hard for you too, to say goodbye or to explain why this has to change or to explain that these beautiful relationships have existed also shrouded in secrecy. And while you offer travel, maybe they offer a cocoon. You are for adventure. They offer something else. I don't know. But I have a sense that there is a lot more that you could tell about it. But you've had an investment in making them look like they were nothing so that she wouldn't have to worry about it. So there's a collusion of misrepresentation of what means what and what matters and doesn't. Yeah.

[Partner (Male)]

And there's comfortability, habits. It does bring cocoon, I guess, or a comfort to life. It's like a stable thing for me, which I didn't have, obviously, growing up. I know that's a part of a need and want that I. I have like, taken care of. And, you know, even if it's making food, things like that, like their comforts of life.

[Esther Perel]

I assume that in your therapy you are connecting those dots.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, but in all honesty, I'm like, working through, trying to change my situations more so than I am there. Like, that's all I went in with and that's all I talk about.

[Esther Perel]

But you have put a lot of emphasis on honesty and transparency and secrecy. And what I'm sensing throughout our conversation today is that there is a whole other emphasis on loss, on the burden of caretaking, on feeling incredible responsibility, on wondering who is there for you, on aloneness, and on creating relationships that become safe harbors where somebody cooks for you, so that it becomes more layered. Why they feel like a root canal to have to end and why on some level, they have nothing to do with your relationship right now. It does and it doesn't.

[Partner (Female)]

I think what's hard for me is that I want to be a safe harbor for you. And I think I offer you that comfort and doing things for you and not just the community, but, like, one on one. Like, I do truly believe that we want the same thing. And I recognize the barrier and how hard this is for you. But that, like, puts me back in. Like, I don't know what to do with that because it's a. It's a pretty tough boundary for me again. So Even if I can understand how hard it is for you to change your dynamics with these other individuals, like, can I change my boundary? And, like, I've tried, and now I'm back in a pretzel in my head of like, why can't I just let this all work for me? Like, I feel like I'm right back there.

[Esther Perel]

I saw the loop, I see the circle. I see the making of the pretzel, if you want. And yes, there is also a place at which you say, love him. Love some of what we have. Special, unique love story, but maybe reached its limit in terms of life story. To me, that is a boundary. The people that we can deeply love, and then the question is, can we make a life with them? Whatever the style of life you choose, more pressure you can't put. That's one thing, you know for fact, because he's not doing this for you, but he has been watching you, and he wants something else for himself. And that demands disentangling from very deep, meaningful relationships that are way more meaningful than he has actually allowed himself to even know. So it's in the moment of saying goodbye that he realizes what they have meant for him. Not just the hurting of the other person, but also the loss for himself. You can say, I will be there with you and I will accompany you through this process, or I will let you go through this process by yourself, and I will continue with my life. And the door is open.

[Partner (Female)]

I do want to be there for him and I do want to be there for you. But if I'm also the one that's being affected, can I do both? You know, where do we begin again? Do we begin again? I do feel like we're back in our circle. We're stuck. You know, I know all these things. I know where it comes from. I want the relationship. But while he's going through this and figuring out if he can actually live in a polyamorous lifestyle, where do I put myself in his life? Can I be there? Can we plan things together? Can we do things together? Or does this require a full separation? And then when do you come back together?

[Partner (Male)]

It's very much what happens when we talk. We kind of circle. It's a difficult situation because we both love each other and want to spend time together and be the partners we can be when we're together. But there's other things that are not aligned right now. So it's the draw of us being us.

[Esther Perel]

I don't think that it's going to be a joint decision. I think that this is a situation where you make a decision for yourself. And you may be in agreement about it, but it's not. We have come to the conclusion together that. It is in your best interest to have this transparency be immediate, and it is not his. You operate from a place of a chosen set of values and a certain design for your life and a certain conception of relationship. If I listen to you, I know you mentioned those words to those women early on, but I don't think that your lifestyle has much to do with poly. Nothing. You're using poly because it's an acceptable word for multiple partners, multiple love stories, but in fact, your whole thing is way more internal than lifestyle. It may change, but that is not from what vitamin D describe what I see you having done.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah. Oh, I recognize for sure I said that.

[Esther Perel]

So that's where the misalignment. You're using a vocabulary that is not a joint vocabulary.

[Partner (Male)]

Yeah, well, I said I'm not. I haven't practiced poly. I said it, but I haven't.

[Esther Perel]

But you've practiced something else, and that something else is way more intricate. There's a whole psychological infrastructure about what you have done to just think it wasn't poly because it wasn't transparent because of all. It's true, it's all there, too. But what you have put in place and what you're trying to dismantle is an infrastructure that has very little to do with polyamory. It doesn't necessarily even have to do with secrecy. That's the mechanism, the compartmentalizing, the evasiveness, and the way the entire thing is set up. You know, if you ask, I answer. But since you didn't ask, I didn't really need to tell. And then evasive is a very powerful dynamic, and at the same time, the relationships are deeply meaningful. But you're looking at an. An infrastructure of values and lifestyle and accountability and responsibility and transparency and all these things. And that is on its way, but it has not been there. There will be loss for both of you. There will be attempts to come back, because who wants to leave something good? And it won't be perfect and it won't feel certain and it will ache. And you will wonder, why the hell did it have to be this way? And should you have been more patient and more flexible and more anarchic? And then you have to accept that you had limits, which goes against your grain, because you think you should be able to be beyond all limits and accommodating in every arrangement. And this is kind of the place where you meet is that his relationships are more meaningful to him than he has allowed himself ever to feel. And that your limits are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel. It's a place where both of you say whatever flows isn't necessarily always the right thing for me. But you will find a way out of the loop when you accept that you too have nos, that you have limits, that you have things that you don't want to live with. You know, monogamous people, exclusive people sometimes are challenged to admit that they have thoughts, fantasies, explorations beyond the limits that they live in. But poly people sometimes have the challenge of admitting that full on openness, exploration, everything goes, everything needs to be understood, every feeling needs to be managed, is sometimes also not what suits every person. Does any of this reach you? It does.

[Partner (Female)]

I mean, you just described what kind of we go through when we break up. It just hasn't stuck.

[Esther Perel]

When you make the decision, you won't feel sure. You will question yourself. It's important that you not think these decisions are made with certainty.

[Partner (Female)]

I know that. I mean, that's what I've already been in.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Partner (Male)]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And he will try to help you stay. No, no, you won't say it. You won't say stay. But you will say what you said today, which melts her heart. So grief lives in that space. The more you grieve, the more you know you loved.

[Partner (Female)]

I've already grieved this a lot.

[Esther Perel]

I know, but you also put him an ultimatum. He didn't meet the ultimatum. Then you've had to follow through on your decision. Then you thought, is there another stone unturned? And sometimes I have nothing to say that you don't know already. I think today is one of those. Is that disappointing to you?

[Partner (Female)]

A little bit, yeah. I obviously wish there was something I hadn't thought of.

[Esther Perel]

I wish too, where do I leave you besides frustrated or disappointed?

[Partner (Female)]

I think it is just what it is. It is frustrating and it is disappointing. And those are two good words to describe our relationship arc.

[Esther Perel]

Where do I leave you?

[Partner (Male)]

Talking to me? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have to make my own decisions too. And it's quite different. I'm the one making the decisions on those other sides. And in this position, I'm not making the decision here. I can respect that, recognize that. And it could be a complete restart for me too, to go forward in a much better way. But is there an avenue that we can be in each other's lives that looks differently where our care and Love for each other just doesn't go by the wayside. And we still care for each other. We still love each other. What can something else look like?

[Esther Perel]

You know what something else looks like is that you are now friends. And therefore, when she calls you in an emergency, you do not have to worry about answering the phone. And then you will pick up and then you will show up. You are more likely to be able to show your depth of affection and love and care for her potentially in the framework of friends than in the framework of partners.

[Partner (Female)]

See, but that's the crazy thing is we've had that conversation, and the level of compartmentalization doesn't allow that, even as a friend.

[Esther Perel]

Really?

[Partner (Female)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, okay, then I take it back.

[Partner (Female)]

The compartmentalization doesn't allow for a deep friendship any more than it allows for a partnership.

[Esther Perel]

Then you have your answer,

[Partner (Female)]

and that's the problem.

[Esther Perel]

Then you have your answer. In the beginning of the session, he said, I never write my own story. At the end of the session, it becomes clear that she will have to make the decision for where the story goes. This will not be a joint decision. This will be hers. Because he can go on like this. He has begun a process of dismantling and rebuilding, but they're not at all in the same place. And paradoxically, while he carries the secrecy, we know a lot more about him. While she carries the transparency, we actually don't know as much. We know the predicament that she's in at this moment and the aching that she feels, but we don't necessarily know what predisposes her to find herself in the most paradoxical situation, meaning she's experiencing the one thing she built an entire system to prevent. And my frustration at the end of this session is that there was only one session. Where should we begin with esther perel is produced by magnificent noise. We're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with new york magazine and the cut. Our production staff includes eric newsome, destry sibley, sabrina farhi, kristen muller, and julian att. Original music and additional production by paul schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin? Are esther perel and jesse baker. We'd also like to thank courtney hamilton, mary alice miller, and jack saul. Let's talk about Peyronie's disease, or pd.

[Partner (Female)]

It's not widely talked about, and some

[Esther Perel]

men may feel reluctant to bring it

[Partner (Female)]

up, but it's more common than you think.

[Esther Perel]

PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis,

[Partner (Female)]

causing a curve with a bump during

[Esther Perel]

an erection that, for some men may

[Partner (Female)]

lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health. A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment.

[Esther Perel]

Visit talkaboutpd.com you can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried.

[Partner (Male)]

This summer, it's time to put that

[Esther Perel]

angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear.

[Partner (Male)]

Level up your [e-mail] to spend more

[Esther Perel]

time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.