Is This the Person I'm Meant to Be With?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is This the Person I'm Meant to Be With?"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Original Air Date: April 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply intimate session, Esther Perel sits with a couple (names anonymized for confidentiality) at a crossroads after a decade together. Having recently transitioned from romantic partners to a “de-escalated” or “live-in separation,” they seek clarity about the future of their relationship. The episode explores questions of compatibility, differentiation, autonomy, and the ongoing process of self-discovery within – and possibly beyond – partnership.

Esther guides them through a reflective exploration of their relationship patterns, family histories, the impact of the pandemic, and their current ambiguous-yet-hopeful living arrangement. The core theme: When is it right to move forward together, and how much ambiguity is healthy? Must a relationship always be clearly defined, or can “limbo” be fertile ground for growth?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Arriving at the Crossroads

• Setting the Stage ([01:33])

  • After 10 years, the couple finds themselves “at a crossroads,” unsure if staying together is wise or if separation is the next step.
  • Client (Partner 1): “We were sort of at a crossroads in our relationship of 10 years, trying to figure out where our paths are going and if our own individual path makes sense to keep together or if it makes more sense to go our separate ways.”

• The De-escalation Experiment ([02:13], [40:44])

  • They decide to maintain their shared home but break up romantically, hoping a “de-escalation” would reduce conflict and allow each space to recalibrate.

2. Early Relationship Patterns & Roles

• Phase One: "Light and Easy" ([04:41])

  • Their original dynamic revolved around fun, bars, socializing—committing to stay together “as long as it’s fun.”

• Conflict of Lifestyles ([05:17], [09:07])

  • Partner 1 preferred home, intimate dinners, “enriching, engaging, stimulating” conversations, rooted in his Italian upbringing.
  • Partner 2 craved novelty, going out, and the social scene, viewing home simply as a place to recharge.

• Role Entrapment ([08:01])

  • Each becomes typecast: one as “wholesome” (which is resented), the other as “party boy”—rigidity sets in.

3. Contempt, Mockery, and Escalation

• Mutual Disdain & Criticism ([14:05])
  • Partner 1: “We got into a bad habit of mocking the things that the other person liked… I now realize I was breaking him down, I was stealing his light...”
  • Esther explains how repeated criticism of each other’s core traits can become contempt: “It becomes, one is responsible and one is not. One is serious and one is not. One is forward-looking, one is not.” ([08:36])

4. Impact of the Pandemic

• Lockdown as Pressure Cooker ([17:30], [22:08])

  • The pandemic locked in old battles—Partner 1 became especially rigid and controlling about isolation, compelling Partner 2 to acquiesce, echoing old family dynamics of “being steamrolled.”
  • Partner 2: “Each time I had to give up… my own autonomy... I resent that in myself because I don't think I like that as a quality.” ([24:47])
  • Partner 1: “I almost felt like… I feel like a tyrant… I don't know if I could have done anything differently because we didn't know what this thing was at the time, and I was trying to protect us.” ([26:18])

• Post-Pandemic Fallout ([29:01])

  • Partner 1 surges forward with urgency, craving lost experiences, while Partner 2 feels left behind, having lost social ties and missed communal milestones like the Black Lives Matter conversations ([30:23]).
  • Partner 2: “I felt very much lost coming out of it. I kind of lost my mojo.” ([31:36])

5. Differentiation & Autonomy

• Enmeshment vs. Independence ([43:53])

  • Esther reframes their experiment: “The issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple. The issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship.”
  • Both partners recognize that their healthier dynamic emerges from living independently, even in the same space.

• Music as a Metaphor ([46:18])

  • Their differing musical tastes are discussed as a model for autonomy within togetherness.
  • Esther: “That feeling you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life.” ([47:06])

6. Letting Go of Definitions & Embracing Uncertainty

• Urgency to Define ([49:05])

  • Both express discomfort in ambiguity—wondering if this in-between state can last or should be resolved.
  • Esther: “What if… it is the very lack of definition, that looseness that can feel destabilizing, that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make?” ([50:34])

• Current Arrangement & Intimacy ([53:44])

  • Both see other people sexually but sometimes still share intimacy. The reduction in snide remarks and increased respect points to real progress.
  • Partner 1: “Those comments we used to make stopped in the last year… and I have, like, a whole new perspective of him.” ([52:52])

7. The Relationship as a Vehicle for Individual Growth

• Esther’s Core Insight: ([57:00])
  • Questioning the popular notion that “you have to work on yourself before you can be in relationship,” Esther sees their story as proof that “it is the relationship that brings out individual challenges... that they get to work out... in the context of the relationship.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Esther, on the desire for certainty:

  • “Because we feel better, we should stop this and make a decision. … Sometimes it’s keeping [the support] on for a little longer because it’s creating movement, and you need movement and you need a change that is individual. You’re working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is giving you safety and the freedom both to deal with this. This is an unusual thing." ([51:37])

• On learning to respect differences:

  • Partner 2: “I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I made, what hookup I had, and the frequency of it all, I guess in my mind meant that I mattered.” ([34:45])
  • Partner 1: “I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be more serious. And... when it started to happen... I was now cursing you for not giving me [fun].” ([37:13])

• On autonomy amid intimacy:

  • Esther: “How do I maintain that closeness... without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him?” ([48:16])

• Esther’s closing thought:

  • “If this thing continues as it is going and it feels good, you will have your answer. But don’t choke it, because we should know. We should know. We should know. … The quality of the relationship is going to be with what you decide.” ([55:33])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:33: Couple introduces their relationship crisis and de-escalation
• 02:13: Decision to remain together but not as romantic partners
• 04:41: Early phase of “light and easy” relationship
• 14:05: Realization of mutual mockery as contempt
• 22:08: Pandemic isolation and its consequences
• 29:01: Reacting to post-pandemic life in different ways
• 31:36: Discussing lost connection and relevance
• 40:44: Details of their de-escalated relationship structure
• 43:53: Focusing on differentiation rather than reverting to old patterns
• 46:18: Music metaphor for autonomy
• 49:05: Struggle with remaining undefined or in “limbo”
• 53:44: Sex and intimacy under the new arrangement
• 57:00: Esther’s reflection on growth within relationship versus in isolation

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Episode Takeaways

• Moving to a less-defined, lower-stakes model of togetherness allowed both partners to rediscover themselves and treat each other with new respect.
• Structural change (de-escalation) may be necessary to break reactive cycles and foster individual growth.
• Relationship “limbo” can paradoxically create the space needed for meaningful movement—uncertainty isn’t always a symptom of trouble.
• Working through challenges in the context of a relationship is not a failure to “fix yourself first”—sometimes, it’s the most powerful way to grow.

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“Is this the person I’m meant to be with?” is neither a question with a quick answer nor a riddle to be solved in haste. Esther guides the couple—and listeners—to sit with the uncertainty, honor the growth that’s happening, and allow the relationship to organically reveal its next chapter.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

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[Client (Partner 1)]

My partner or ex partner right now. We were sort of at a crossroads in our relationship of 10 years, trying to figure out where our paths are going and if our own individual path makes sense to keep together or if it makes more sense to go our separate ways.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Is this the person that I'm meant to be with? Is a question that many people ask themselves and also me. They're in their mid-30s. They came to a place where things could not continue as usual. They had to make a change.

[Client (Partner 1)]

There was a period of time where we were really struggling and we eventually made the decision to what we called a de escalation of our relationship to see what it would look like to live independently but together in the same space and try to see if we can get out of the dynamic that we were in. It had to happen because neither of us could continue in the way that it was going.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So they created a new structure so that they could continue to live together under the same roof but not be in a romantic relationship to find a way to lessen the reactivity and the chronic escalations and the high conflict that became pervasive in the relationship. And things have really improved. This is actually closer to the relationship they've always wanted.

[Client (Partner 1)]

As time went on, we were like, wait, we're actually liking how we're feeling in this new arrangement. But what does that mean? Like, is it because there's still something there or is it because of the breakup or the de escalation that we're feeling better? What's the big fear? You know, you loved each other before what, Stop it at this time. You know what I mean?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But they are afraid if we re engage, if we become a romantic couple again, will we be able to sustain this or is all of this going to fall apart again?

[Client (Partner 1)]

There's part of me that wants to try again, but there's part of me is afraid that we don't know how to make it work. You know, will we just fall right back into the old patterns? Will we end up resenting each other and ruining what we've established?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

We don't want to ruin what we have. We would like it to lead to more, but we don't trust that the more is something that we actually can sustain. So let's listen.

[John Finer]

We met through a mutual friend, actually

[Jake Sullivan]

his ex, whom who I was dating for a while.

[John Finer]

Their relationship didn't work out and, you know, our friendship blossomed into, you know, a relationship. We're texting every day, we're hanging out with the same friends. We're going out soon enough. We are in a full blown relationship. That's fun. We're both young, having a good time. I had a lot of friends. We were hanging out, going to bars and stuff like that. And we were like, we're gonna be together as long as we're having fun, as long as it's not fun. That's when we start to have to talk about it and reconsider for a while. It worked out.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So that was the original contract. Light and easy.

[John Finer]

Light and easy.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Okay, so that's phase one.

[John Finer]

Yeah, that's phase one. And as you pass the quote unquote, honeymoon phase, as we started to get older, that is when the fun maybe started to shift.

[Jake Sullivan]

He was looking for more. More fun, more openness, more exploration.

[John Finer]

People, let's meet new people, friends, whatever that may be.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah. And we used to joke that I had like more wholesome ideas of what I wanted and wanted to do and how to spend my time. Like I used to complain that we would just be on the go all the time, like Thursday through Sunday, party, bar, club, another bar, another club. No moment to sit down and have a meal. And I was just like, I don't know if this is the lifestyle that I want, you know, I mean, it wasn't bad. I don't want to Give it like this tawdry interpretation. It was more just like. It was just too fast. And I didn't feel like we were taking time to do certain things that I wanted to do.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes.

[Jake Sullivan]

So I think that's where he always felt like he had to pull me. And I was kind of just like, slow down. And he was like, come on, I want to bring you along for all of this.

[John Finer]

Yeah, I want you with me. Like, I want to do this together. And you finally digged yields in the sand about like, yeah, this is not what I'm doing, or I'm going to scale back on how much I'm involved in this.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Do you need him to help you scale back?

[John Finer]

Yes, at the time I did.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because you kind of otherwise could get lost in the vortex.

[John Finer]

Yes, yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

If I'm going to be honest, in the hedonistic vortex.

[John Finer]

If you put it that way. For lack of a better word, sure.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Should we find another one or does it state it clearly?

[John Finer]

Yes. You know, with friends, it's easy to. And especially when you're young, living in a city, or you're doing what your friends are doing.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But when he tries to slow you down, this is now beyond just this one situation. When he tries to slow you down or to say, let's sit or let's have a meal or let's not just go, go, go, go. You fight him or you actually know he's providing you with an inner control that you sometimes lack.

[John Finer]

That's a good question. I did fight it. I did resist, especially if it conflicted on what my plans were. The hedonistic stuff. Yes. I was very much fighting it. And then it would only through argument and sort of like, him like, wearing me down, but, like, making me feel bad in the conversation. Then I would acquiesce to the slowing down. As I got older, over time, I realized the calming factor of being in and doing, like, the wholesome stuff.

[Jake Sullivan]

I used to resent the characterization of what I wanted to do as wholesome. For some reason.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I understand. I mean, because the way that you've labeled things gives it a whole meaning. Why is yours wholesome and yours young, free, pleasure seeking, adventurous, and you're like, what, the party pooper? But it's interesting to see how very early on you took on those roles. And my guess is that once they were outlined, they just became more and more defined.

[John Finer]

That's 100%.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And then it starts to filter into everything. It just becomes, one is responsible and one is not. One is serious and one is not. One is Forward looking one is not. Is that what happened?

[Jake Sullivan]

Yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So if you had the word that really described and it wasn't wholesome as in, you know, grandmotherly, what would it have been for you?

[Jake Sullivan]

I can't give you necessarily a word, but the image that comes up in my mind is sitting around the table for food. Because I grew up Italian, all of our gatherings were around the table. So whenever I think about what gives me joy and fulfillment, it's like sitting down, having a conversation. So to me it's like enriching, it's engaging, it's stimulating, like. Whereas on the flip side, sometimes the party scene was hard for me because there wasn't a lot of opportunity to talk. The music's loud, it's fast, and social interactions can be sometimes fleeting and superficial. So I felt that on a really deep soul level where I was feeling empty. So I didn't think of it as wholesome like it was.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

No, no, I get it, I get it. But I was wondering, that image that you had of sitting around the table, dropping in, being present, connecting with each other, having rich conversations, did you have that at home?

[John Finer]

Yes. Yeah, I mean we, you know, I grew up home, we had dinner every night, you know what I mean?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And your family background?

[John Finer]

My mom is American and my dad is Caribbean from the West Indies. So yeah, I grew up in a, you know, international slash American home. But I guess in terms of like the meal aspect, I don't know if that was.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

It wasn't the meal as much as did it seem to you, fun is outside. Yes, that's what I was saying.

[John Finer]

Yes, fun is outside.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You know, go to a party describing funnies inside and the word fun wouldn't even need what he would choose. But inside is rich, inside is where you choose to. Whereas you're describing a kind of an elan to always want to go out.

[John Finer]

That's true. Because the home is where you chill, where you relax, you're not doing too much, you're just like there to I guess recharge to then go back out.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Right. So out is where you bring the best of you and the leftovers come home.

[John Finer]

There you go. Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Then home becomes a place where you don't give much of yourself. Yes. And then that will become very frustrating to him.

[John Finer]

Yes, that's so true.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Something like that.

[John Finer]

Yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because then he sees how much attention, focus, engagement, presence you take with you when you go out and you come home, you take off your shoes, you put your feet up, so to speak, and you hope that nothing is asked from you and you don't have to do squat.

[John Finer]

Yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What did you just see? As I was describing this, you just had a scene in front of you.

[John Finer]

Like my typical days or not. Yeah, typical days if I don't have much to do or like an argument about to start, you know what I mean? Of like, you're just there. There's so much you could be doing and you're just there, you know what I mean? Where I'm, I'm like, I'm in my house, I'm supposed to be relaxing, you know, when you go out, that's when you're exerting energy and doing all that. So when you were saying all that, I just saw all the arguments or like all the times where he would be like, I can't explain it, but this is why I'm mad. I'm like, well, what I'm inside. But the way when you laid it out, I was like, doesn't sound too great.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

He points at an interesting distinction here because at first it looks like they're having tension around the fact that one of them wants to go out, party, meet friends, have fun, and the other one wants to be more at home, around the table, in conversation, etc. And so he says, but I'm home and you're having a fit with me even when I'm home. That's because his conception is that at home you chill. At home you put your legs up and you don't have to be performative, you don't have to please, you don't have to charm, you don't have to make any effort. As a result, the best of him goes out into the world and the leftovers come home, it doesn't sound great for him. Primarily because if he struggles with the emptiness of the fast paced party scene, struggles is not even the word, he just doesn't like it. And he also doesn't get your presence when you're home. Then he's going to start to feel a lonely, bored, frustrated, agitated, something.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yes. And that ended up having follow on effect. I have a lot of guilt for the way that I reacted. I think we got into a bad habit of mocking the things that the other person liked. Each of you, both of us, in different ways. In retrospect, I would make little digs about the vapid, superficial nature of partying. How no one was really interested in getting to know anyone. You know, it was slight offhand comments that I now in retrospect realize I was breaking him down, I was stealing his light. But then when it Would come to me, making new friends. There would be the little jabs about, like, oh, yeah, y' all gonna go talk about philosophy or boring stuff. Yeah. Little jokes about being pseudo intellectual or, you know, something like that that I think war on each other. We didn't have a lot of respect for what the other person brought to the table or was interested in. I regret that I do because I can be difficult, I can be hard. When I've been made to feel rigid and typecast, it makes me really angry. And so the way that I have responded sometimes hasn't been the right way. And so I recognize that after the fact that, like, what was the effect on him? What was I doing to him by saying these things?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What's described here is a rather common pattern in many relationships. One person doesn't like what the other one does. When they can't get anywhere just repeating that, the comment turns into criticism. When the criticism doesn't go anywhere, then the criticism over the behavior turns into a criticism over the personality. Not what you do, but who you are. Then, as he says, we began mocking each other. We digged. We made the person feel bad about the very thing that mattered to them, and it became contemptuous. And contempt switched from I don't like what you do to there's something wrong with you. That is the sentence of contempt. And he very honestly owns it beautifully, just takes responsibility for it and just says, I added my peace to this and it made it worse. That was very beautiful. That recognition is really important because when you start to repeat that on a daily basis to each other, it becomes rigid. It's like each of you basically began to put down the very part that the other person is already struggling with.

[John Finer]

Yeah, I think after a while, like, because you at that point dug your heels in and was like, I'm not doing this as much or I'm just gonna take a pivot. And you started to sort of look down on the things that I guess I was valuing. It chipped away in me and, like, my self esteem of, like, what I like, you know, is what I like frivolous and dumb and stupid. So I think over time, it just eroded my confidence in the things that I liked. And then the pandemic happened, and now

[Jake Sullivan]

you are, you know, in survival mode.

[John Finer]

In survival mode at this point.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So they're tracking with me the sequence of. Of escalation in their relationship. They had become a digging couple that attacks and reacts and blames and defends. And then they bring up the pandemic. They start to describe the pressure cooker of having this whole dynamic when there is not even an opportunity to open a door to meet other people, to get some other input, to have a break from it. They were with this day in, day out. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Quo Spring cleaning can mean many things, from cleaning your home to managing your relationships to getting your work life in order. So if you're a business owner and your communications feel cluttered, Quo says they can help tidy up. QWO spelled Q u o is the smarter circumstances, simpler way to run your business communications Quo isn't just a phone system, it's a smart system. Its AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries, and highlights next steps so nothing gets lost. It can even respond after hours so your business stays responsive even when you're not. Make this the season where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com begin that's qU-U-O.com begin no missed calls, no missed customers. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Wayfair. You can build a home you look forward to relaxing in with help from Wayfair, and we Day is the perfect time to do it. From April 25 through 27, Wayfair is offering lots of great deals like up to 80% off items with free shipping on everything. Find furniture and decor that fit your budget, style and needs. And with Wayfair Verified, you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget because their team of product specialists vets everything by hand. I know this might sound silly, but my producer Jesse and I are still debating which chair to get. There's so many great options to choose from on Wayfair, and we're still unsure whether to choose form and function over style when it comes to the chair. So stay tuned. Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home. That's up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. Go to Wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Colette Travel Services. What would it feel like to give yourself the gift of discovery? Solo travel can be transformative, and Colette makes it effortless for over A century. They've crafted guided tours that balance independence with connection, ideal for solo adventurers. And here's the best. Now solo travelers can save up to $1,000 on select small group exploration tours and departures. Enjoy your own room for less and travel knowing your journey was designed by indestination experts who love travel as much as you do. Imagine the thrill of an African safari. The magic of Australia and New Zealand. The northern lights in Alaska or Finland, or savoring Europe's timeless charm. Every detail is handled so you can focus on what matters your experience. Explore solo travel@go collette.com Esther that's go c o l l ette.com Esther.

[Jake Sullivan]

We just really struggled with how we both navigated that because on the one hand, our friend group took more liberties with the pandemic, even in the earlier months during the lockdown. And I took a very hard, admittedly rigid line and said, we are not going to be around anybody. We can't be around anybody because they're all going into Big Ten, 15 person groups. And we were talking, well, can't we have a bubble? I said, there's no bubble. If everyone's mixing, it's not a bubble then, you know. So we got to a point where we're pretty isolated and a lot of our friends kind of moved on. Not moved on. We felt at the time that people moved on without us was hurtful.

[John Finer]

And I think because of his hard stance at the time, there was no talking or in between about, like, how we were going to do it. He kind of just dug his heels in the sand and I had to kind of be along with the program because that's just how it was, you know, you really wasn't budging. And I think that's when the conflicts really started to kick off.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because for every time I relinquish, I resent you more.

[John Finer]

Yes. Each time I had to give up a part of my view or like what I would do or my own autonomy in the situation because there's this person that's just making the rules.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And where is all of this stored right now?

[John Finer]

Yeah, it's still.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

It's there.

[John Finer]

Yeah. Still a little bit of the control and autonomous piece. And I think that's really where I guess I struggle where to go forward of like exercising that autonomy but also doing it in an apprenticeship as well and not the same way.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Are you surprised that you relinquished your ideas or your coping mechanisms and that you kind of allowed him to?

[John Finer]

No. No, I'm not surprised.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Tell me.

[John Finer]

I think in my relationships with family, I do get steamrolled quite a bit, especially with my mom and my sisters. And I think that translated in people pleasing with friends, you know, just taking the easy way route or just a path of less resistance and conflict avoidance. So it's not surprising that I let this happen or this happen. And I think part of that is I resent that in myself because I don't think I like that as a quality.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Is there dad? Yes. And what is dad's role in this?

[John Finer]

More like me. The laid back path of least resistance, less outspoken in a room of people who have a stronger personality. However, still has things to say when asked. So I think in this whole dynamic with mom sisters, he was kind of like me. Kind of, we'll let them talk.

[Jake Sullivan]

That's that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Let them talk and we'll go do our thing. Or we let them talk and we'll do what they want. Because happy wife, happy life.

[John Finer]

Yes, we will let them talk and do what they want until, you know, it really matters. Until it really matters.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Or most things don't matter enough to put up a stink.

[John Finer]

Correct? Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And you wink at each other.

[John Finer]

Yeah. We were like, why do they. You know, we were kind of commiserating as to why whatever they were talking about was as important. I think my dad was very much on the. What are you guys talking about? You know what I mean? So I think I kind of took the stance of my dad and that's something that I'm trying to work on. Not having more and standing up for myself, but also not doing it in a way that is distrustful. Not distrustful, but like I'm very much on the defense of wanting to keep my autonomy or make sure that I'm not getting steamrolled.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I want to respond to that, just

[Jake Sullivan]

that, you know, I recognize that I also felt that the way that I conducted myself is something that I ended up resenting in myself. I still hold a lot from the pandemic as well. Less about how he showed up for me, but more about how I showed up for myself and how I conducted myself because I felt that I was very. I almost felt like it felt tyrannical. That's the word I always have in my head is I feel like a tyrant.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because you were scared?

[Jake Sullivan]

I was terrified. I mean, I realized I had a lot of anxiety issues around contamination. And I mean, I woke up every morning and I looked at the numbers and I would read the graphs and it was a moment that I wasn't really proud of in retrospect. I don't know if I could have done anything differently because we didn't know what this thing was at the time, and I was trying to protect us. I mean, that's how I remember. Was very. Felt very life or death at the time.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[Jake Sullivan]

But I think that. I think I belittled you for wanting to be around your friends. There was a lot of times that I would say, you know, the world is burning and all you can worry about is going to a house party. Which, in retrospect, it was not a house party. We were lonely. We were deeply lonely. But I'd be like, I'm lonely, too. So. What do you mean? Like, you need to go to that. We just have to. You know, people fought world wars and we. We have to sit in and watch Netflix. It's not that bad. And so I would just kind of, like, trivialize what we were going through and just say disrespectful.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You brought up your entire cultural arsenal.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But I understand that underneath this was fear. In the same way that when you say I'm holding on tight to my autonomy in a kind of a defensive way, it's not because I trust it so well that it's going to manifest. It's because I actually experience its fragility.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

The same way that you become rigid when you are scared and it looks like you're a controlling dude and you act in a controlling fashion, but in fact, it's because you're feeling out of control. It's presented as certainty, but in fact, it's fear masquerading as certainty.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah. The fear of uncertainty.

[John Finer]

I guess what you're saying is, like, he's not the absolute truth just because.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because he sounds like it.

[John Finer]

Right. He can be challenged. Okay. Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And it's your opportunity.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Jake Sullivan]

I'd say, I think when the pandemic finally, you know, we were vaccinated.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

We don't understand each other anymore. So you.

[Jake Sullivan]

It's like we had. I don't know how you might describe it a bit differently, but when I came out, I had a new lease on life. I was just like, I lost these many years. I went in 28, and I came out 30, 31. And it's something about hitting 30 while inside and not having that ability to live those last few years of your twenties the way you wanted to had a really big impact on, I think, both of us, but me in particular. And I just was like, I'm gonna live my life the way I want to live it. I'm gonna travel I want to get back to the things that I used to like. I was on a mission.

[John Finer]

You said, yeah, when you got out, it was. You were on a mission. But I think for me, the aftermath was feeling like I lost friendships because I just was isolated when my friends were out, non isolating, you know, they were out and about making connections or memories that I wasn't a part of. So I felt like I lost out on that. And then I guess there was a whole cultural conversation around race at the time. And again, because I was isolated, I didn't really get to experience that as well because loved my partner at the time, but, you know, he's a white guy. So I didn't really get that conversation as well or interaction in isolation. So I don't know, I felt very much lost coming out of it. I kind of lost my mojo.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

They described the lockdown, the suffocation, how it exacerbated all their dynamics, but also what was happening in the world outside here was Black Lives Matter, as he calls it. A whole racial conversation was taking place that I could not participate in. And that was one in which I may have found some of that very assertiveness, autonomy, confidence, self worth that I was struggling with without having to do it alone. And in addition, there's something so powerful in his referencing this because they're so locked in, into this notion that one just wants to party and one wants to have a more serious engagement with life. He didn't just want to party. He wanted to be part of the larger conversation that was happening at that time around black men and Black Lives Matter and he couldn't. And so it adds a whole layer to him that isn't just party boy.

[John Finer]

So, yeah, you. I think you were thriving. I was not.

[Jake Sullivan]

I don't know if I'd call it thriving. The way I describe it, and I think it matches our styles too, is that I came out feeling this urgency, this anxiety to make up for less time, which always forces me into action. And I think you experienced it more of a kind of like a sadness or a depression. And it made you just kind of like, kind of feel like defeated, like the wind had been sucked out of your sails, like you had lost everything. You would always say, I just lost this and I lost that.

[John Finer]

Nothing. Felt the same coming back. So yeah, I kind of felt like just lost in it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And then what did you do?

[John Finer]

I think I'm still in that process of finding my way, but I think finding my way was going inward, figuring out what I liked, connecting with myself. And I think in a way, I became a recluse because I didn't want to like, socialize. I think I developed an anxiety of socialization.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Oh, wow.

[John Finer]

I didn't really want to talk to people as much. I kind of became the opposite of what I became going into the pandemic. I felt as though people moved on and had wanted nothing to do with me. I just had this really negative self view about how things were, where my place was in the world.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Was it real that they had left you or.

[John Finer]

No, it was all inside of you. In my head, it's like we switch roles, Swiss roles. I didn't feel relevant.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

[John Finer]

I didn't feel relevant. I guess I didn't feel important anymore.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah, but you see, the interesting thing is that it may look like when you were in your I'm out and about socially hyperactive on the scene phase, that that was an expression of confidence. What I'm hearing from you is that that was a way of dealing with the lack of confidence. That was a way of dealing with some of your questions around self worth, which is not unusual. That being socially accepted in the center of things. Every phone call means I matter. I'm important. People think of me, I'm worthy. But if every phone call means that, it means that inside of me, I don't think that. I don't really think it. And so then somehow you think this is the problem now because you're no longer going out and reaching in the same way. But maybe this is actually not the problem. But the first version was not necessarily the problem. But the first version was not necessarily the most useful way to deal with this issue. It took care of the job as long as it was fast and constant. So you don't have to think in a way this is more painful. This is what you've defended against all along. But this actually gives you the opportunity to really develop the confidence.

[John Finer]

Yeah, yeah. Like I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I made, what hookup I had, and the frequency of it all, I guess in my mind meant that I mattered.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[John Finer]

To your point, realizing that was fake, that wasn't real confidence.

[Jake Sullivan]

I don't want to speak for you, but my interpretation of how things were is that you started to look to me. You felt like without me, you were lost. Like without you, no one wants to hang out with me. They all want to do with you. And I'm like, what is this? You were the one that brought me into the fold. You were the one that showed me so much. You were the one that really opened up my life. When I came into the picture with your friend group and now you're saying you were looking to me and it was like all of these floods of emotions started coming in that I had never seen that were. Honestly, it was both. I felt good that you finally could share them with me, and I felt closer, but I was also a little overwhelmed because it was just a feeling flood. I felt almost like, oh, my gosh, like, if this is how he's feeling, like, how do. How do I take care of you? I have this memory where it was your birthday and I had planned this, like, fancy dinner out somewhere and I just felt like you just weren't.

[John Finer]

I don't know.

[Jake Sullivan]

I hated that. I almost resented it. It was like, you feel this way and I'm still trying to help out to like, make things fun. And it just wasn't connecting anymore. And I was just like, this isn't fun anymore.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah, that's amazing. You actually did rely on him to be your fun machine. The same way that he somewhere relied on you to be the container that reminded him that it's time to come home on occasion. But he didn't like it. But he knew he needed it somewhere. And you, in a way, also needed him to be the light, fun seeking guy. When he actually turns to you with the gravitas, you welcome it because it means so much to you. And at the same time, you're afraid it's going to overwhelm you and you're not going to know what to do with it.

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, yeah, I never thought of it that way.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Say it in your own words.

[Jake Sullivan]

I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be more serious. And when the moment it started to happen, it was almost like the very thing that I was asking you for before, I was now cursing you for not giving me.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[Jake Sullivan]

So you kind of probably felt like you were in a catch 22.

[John Finer]

Well, yeah, I just definitely felt inadequate because it was like, well, the one thing that I'm good at, I'm not even doing, which is like the fun and like, you know, making things happen, cheering you up. I had become the cloud now and I guess obsolete to you, you know, in that period. So then I guess we're both kind of like something needs to kind of happen. We need to shake things up.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

This whole session, we are tracking the progression of the relationship from the beginning to where they are now. Now they're at an impasse they're constantly picking at each other. They can't take it anymore and they decide we need to do something. We need to do something. It seems to them that only a structural shift can stop the repeated patterns that they are caught in. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for where should we Begin Comes from Aloha. So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a Aloha Protein Bars. This isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture. Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha Protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com a l o h a.com Aloha taste that grows

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[Jake Sullivan]

I said we needed to change something. I don't know what it was that we needed to do, but I knew it couldn't go status quo. We both agreed that it just could not go on like this. Yeah, and we eventually landed on what we called a de escalation of our relationship, where we would effectively break up. But the board breakup didn't feel like it fit for me. It just felt like we're not gonna do the divorce, split up the furniture, move into other places. We were like, we know we love each other. We know that we care about each other. I want you in my Life. You want me in your life, but we're just, we're running a three legged race and we're just tripping and we're pulling each other in different. We don't know how to get out of it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[Jake Sullivan]

And we just were like, we just need some time to breathe. That was the decision. And I won't lie and say there wasn't a practical elements to the decision too because like living in an expensive city also means like, okay, are you gonna live by yourself? So maybe the more traditional way would have been to give each other some physical space. But we decided like, at least for now we need to be able to do like a live in separation or de escalation. We decided to do that probably around this time last year. And we had no idea what we were doing. I mean, we just knew that we were going to start trying to like live separate lives together.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And you draw the line at sex.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes. Is that.

[John Finer]

Yes.

[Jake Sullivan]

But not physical intimacy generally.

[John Finer]

Right.

[Jake Sullivan]

There's been times where we cuddle, sleep

[John Finer]

in the same bed, hugs, all that, you know, affection.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[John Finer]

So you know, externally people see or our friends and you're like, girl, what's going on? Like, you know, or most people go like, well, what's really different?

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[John Finer]

What is really different?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What's different is that you try to create a demarcation that would enable you to have a much more differentiated relationship.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Where not everything one of you does the other one has a reaction to.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yes, yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So you can call it de escalating with the de Escalation is connected to the differentiation.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Now of course the interesting thing is how does it work and why is it that the no sex becomes the thing that helps you do this? Because if you ask, you know, where do we go from here? Which I'm assuming is a part of why we are here, is that. Yeah. You know, there is a way in which you experience a certain kind of closeness as becoming too enmeshed and it becomes reactive and each of you starts to reinforce the mechanisms of the other. The very mechanisms that the other doesn't necessarily even want.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So how do you. The issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple. The issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship.

[John Finer]

Yeah. I think, yeah. It's that piece of like, how do we maintain our individual autonomy of ourselves.

[Jake Sullivan]

Having had the independence to live my life a bit more separately has allowed me to re. Engage with that part of myself that I, I thought was lost When I was feeling so rigid and a little dynamic. And I've seen changes in him too. So now we're like. Are these changes that we're seeing where we're having more fun together, we're hanging out in a way that feels better, like something we haven't felt in a long time. Are they a byproduct of us being separated? Or are they a byproduct of us changing something about ourselves that we can now re. Engage and.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But they are going together. It's the kind of separation that is enabling each of you to strengthen certain parts inside of you without needing the other person to do it for you.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Finer]

That's what we're trying to do.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

These are connected. If he's not my boy toy, then I have to become more connected to the part of me that wants fun and deal with the anxiety that comes with it. If I don't have him being the Mr. Structure and containment, then I have to find some of this myself without thinking that that makes me boring and unwanted and undesirable as a friend. And all of these associations that come with what you have called wholesome. It's not the separation. Just as such. The separation also means that there's certain comments you no longer can make. You don't have the same privilege to intrude on my internal landscape to tell me what you think about it. When you have that kind of separation for the benefit of the relationship, it forces you to maintain a certain distance. Therefore, I enter more into a conversation with myself. I'm not in stereo system all the time. What's your music? Me?

[John Finer]

Oh, I like a lot of things.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You're a music guy, right?

[John Finer]

Yeah, I'm a music guy.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

That's what I thought.

[John Finer]

I like hip hop, R and B, pop. You know what I mean? Throw in a little Britney Spears.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So that's the thing you need to remember is he may like other music. And it doesn't change how you like the music you like because that's inside of you. That's something you feel very clear and confident about. So if he says, I hate that kind of music, or how can you listen to this? Or come and listen to whatever, what are you into?

[Jake Sullivan]

I'm more like rock music.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Okay. All right. You know, it doesn't ruffle you that feeling that you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life?

[John Finer]

Yes, that's what it is. It's just making more decisions that are totally based off of no influence from anyone else or anyone you get to actually know exactly what you want and you get what you want instead of either compromising with someone else or changing your decision based off of whatever someone thinks. It's like, no, this is what you want. You're standing in it. You're steadfast. No one's changing what you want, and no one has an opinion about it. Or if they do, it's whatever.

[Jake Sullivan]

It's funny you bring up music because it's been a place that we've connected, even though it's so different for us. Like, it's like a sphere that we kind of meet at. We go to karaoke, and we have so much fun. We sing in the house. We like. We both like to sing. You know, I put on my country rock song, and you're just. You know, you listen to it, and then you put on your R and B pop song, and I listen to it, and then we kind of like,

[John Finer]

give each other notes.

[Jake Sullivan]

Notes on it. Okay.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So you have a template. It gives you a sense of what does it feel like when it's more differentiated.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So how do I maintain that closeness to him, that intimacy with him, without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him?

[John Finer]

Yes, that's the question. Now, if we do go back to this, can I build this autonomy or work on this individual piece of me without being distracted by you? And maybe the things that trigger me about you and what you're doing, that's

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

the next level of differentiation.

[John Finer]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You get to have your opinion, but mind doesn't dissolve because of it. And neither does it have to become belligerent, defensive.

[John Finer]

Oh, defensive, right. Offensive.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes. Like a fight.

[John Finer]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You know, so why the urgency to solve the riddle now?

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah, I think it's like, can we go on like this forever?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And, like, why forever go on? First of all, does it have to be forever versus now? I guess yesterday versus never.

[John Finer]

For me, I guess it's a limbo of, like, are we together? Are we not together? Are we just kind of roommates? Just with the connection? You know? I guess it's me wanting a definition and then, like, in order to. Then a further commitment, I guess, of, like, are we gonna continue living together for the next 10 years? Are we gonna get married? Cause, you know, it's a long time. You know what I mean? Or are we gonna eventually move out and kind of really, really make that transition? So I guess it's just getting out of the limbo that we've been in for, like, a year. A year now.

[Jake Sullivan]

So or the question is, is the current state that we're in holding us back from other. Like, there's nothing on paper.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Relationships is the main piece.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah, there's nothing on paper. No one's holding each other back. But, like, are we psychologically holding ourselves back? I don't necessarily dislike it. I just don't know if you can do it in perpetuity now.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Forget the perpetuity for a second. You keep going back and forth between on the spot versus never. But what if? Have you ever wondered that? In fact, it is the very lack of definition, that looseness that can feel destabilizing, that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make. When we were defined and committed, we got stuck. You're not stuck. You're undefined. Which is contrary to traditional script, wholesome scripts.

[Jake Sullivan]

I like that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You know, what are you. Are you really together? Are you not together? Are you sleeping together? You're not sleeping together. Do you see other people? Do you not see other people? It's kind of summarized in four or five questions.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah. You'd be surprised how many people ask you straight up. Of course, you feel like you're on the defense, like you have to litigate your.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You can also just say it's probably one of the better times we've had in a long time.

[John Finer]

It is.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

That's all we can say something about. This terra non firma, this moving ground underneath us is actually doing us good. And if we decide at some point not to stay together, we will have developed a type of maturity in relationships that we can take with us in life. But it's like, because we feel better, we should stop this and make a decision. I feel better. I do, kind of. That's kind of, you know, because I feel better. I can take off the brace, but it is the brace that is helping me walk better. Sometimes it's keeping on for a little longer because it's creating movement and you need movement and you need a change that is individual. You're working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is giving you the safety and the freedom both to deal with this. This is an unusual thing. Even if it doesn't have a name and doesn't get defined and makes people curious and all of that.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah, those comments we used to make stopped in the last year. The digs and the snide remarks and the trivialization of what we like. And I have, like, a whole new perspective of him.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So we're Learning how to be in relationship differently. We're learning not to have our partner be part of a cover up operation of some of our inner challenges.

[Jake Sullivan]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And we have a unique opportunity. We love each other enough to do this with each other in this artificial. It's not even artificial, but in this creative actually construct that we've just come up with. Do you sleep with other people? What do you do, sex wise?

[John Finer]

Yeah, we hook up with other people.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You hook up with other people? Both of you. Okay, so you're not like starving for the.

[John Finer]

No, no.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And do you connect with each other? Do you hook up with each other? On occasion.

[Jake Sullivan]

It's happened over the year. It's always been something that's given me maybe a little bit more because you

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

instantly think, what does it mean? Does it mean we're back together? Does it mean we're gonna connect, we're gonna commit, we're gonna marry, we're gonna have children? We're gonna.

[John Finer]

Yeah, you know, exactly. What is it gonna be?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You didn't become queer to do the straight Line. It's like, leave that.

[Jake Sullivan]

Right, right. That's so true.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I mean, I understand. It's like, what does it mean if we cross that Rubicon again? You know? It means primarily that we were into each other and we have a deep connection and we wanted to express it also physically and leave it at that for that night or morning or whatever.

[John Finer]

Yeah, we in limbo for about a year now. And I know for me, I'm kind of like. I don't. I don't know.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You're not in limbo. That's what I'm. Damn. It's an interesting thing that you're not in limbo. You're actually for the first time moving true. And shifting the dynamic. So autonomy for you is the ability to even know what you want or think next to someone who is opinionated, which is the only way you can train your muscles. So you find yourself a good, rigid, opinionated guy and then you can hone your chops. You understand?

[John Finer]

Yeah, I do understand. Yeah, I do. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Sense. So you asked where we go from here, and my. My only thought that accompanied me the whole time is if this thing continues as it is going and it feels good, you will have your answer. But don't choke it, because we should know. We should know. We should know. We know. What we know is what we are experiencing. That is not in the title, but that is in the actual interaction, in the things that are changing inside of us and between us that we know. And if that continues, then we will either say, it's beautiful and this is who I want to make my life with, or you will say, this was a beautiful love story, but it won't be a life story. It's like there's nothing somebody from the outside can, can answer here. It's really the quality of the relationship is going to be with what you decide.

[John Finer]

Yeah, I like that concept of, like, if we did, you know, somehow make the ground stop moving under us, it wouldn't allow for the movement forward. We would either get stuck again or, I don't know, just. It wouldn't allow us to keep moving forward. So in a way, the uncertainty is the medicine, I guess.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes. So often people ask me if they should work on themselves, end quote, before they can be in a relationship. And this is a very accepted notion in our very individualistic society. Go away, retreat. Have a relationship with yourself, with. Work out the kinks, and then when you feel good about yourself, then go and find someone who is going to feel equally good about you as you do. And I've always had a challenge with that premise. I think that for some people, that is obviously what needs to happen. But this is the perfect example of a couple where the other version of this exists. It is the relationship that brings out individual challenges, vulnerabilities, obstacles, fears that reside in each of them and that they get to work out each of them by themselves, but in the context of the relationship. And I happen to think that this is equally, if not more relevant because I've worked with many people who have a lot of inquiries about themselves when they are alone. But it's only when you are with another person who pushes the buttons, who makes you react, that you actually, in real life, in the moment, get to practice something else.

[Esther Perel]

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Moeller and Julian at Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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