It's Very Hard to Live with a Saint

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's Very Hard to Live with a Saint"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: January 19, 2026

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Overview:

This episode centers on a real couple—she is Mexican, he is Colombian and 19 years older—grappling with escalating, rigid conflict cycles in their marriage of one year. Esther Perel guides them through the roots of their dynamic: her explosive anger and his detached "saintly" stonewalling, both formed from childhood and cultural legacies. The session exposes how mutual patterns, family scripts, pride, and emotional shutdowns reinforce their pain and keep intimacy at bay. Perel’s interventions illuminate not just their wounds, but accessible tools for building empathy and accountability.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Couple’s Conflict Pattern

• Initial Dynamic:

  • Heaven-hell relationship transition: intense love, then rapid descent into high conflict.
  • Each conflict follows the same predictable beats: she explodes, he withdraws, communication breaks down completely.

  "We have nasty fights from 1 to 10. How bad?"
  "For me, they're like... they're like 15."
  —Esther Perel & Male Partner (03:57)

  • He describes himself as “noble” and childlike, and believes his good nature is being abused.
  • She admits to verbal aggression and feeling responsible for escalating situations.

• Withdrawal–Pursuit Cycle:
  Perel identifies a classic dance: one pursues emotionally (she), the other stonewalls (he), escalating each other’s reactions.

  "Each person is co-creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative escalations. You close up, you say nothing. And the less you say and the more her requests turn into protests... you kind of wait for her to calm down on her own without engaging."
  —Esther Perel (08:31)

2. Family and Cultural Legacies

• His Family Origin:

  • Raised in a house with overbearing women; his father was noble but passive and diminished in the family hierarchy.
  • He is determined not to be weak or let his “brain get sucked out,” which fuels his defensive pride.

  "I've always felt that the strong women in my family... sucked a man's brain into nothingness. And I kind of feel my dad lost his ability to just to be a man."
  —Male Partner (05:34)

• Her Family Origin:

  • Grown up amid open conflict, yelling, and parental violence.
  • Develops hypersensitivity to threat, turning pain and fear into anger. Sees herself reflected in the eyes of a man, putting value in relationships.

  "It was like a whole Mexican telenovela that would give you, like, material for years... I always wanted to see myself in the eyes of a man and to put my value in a relationship."
  —Female Partner (16:36)

3. Roles and Scripts in Relationship

• "Saint" vs. "Bad One":

  • He maintains the role of the “saint”—calm, good, and put-upon—while she takes on the “problematic” role as the one with the outbursts.
  • Perel reframes: both fight; his battle is with passivity and silent pride, not open combat.

  "See, she then goes around thinking, I'm so bad. And you go around thinking, I'm so good. And there's nothing more annoying than living with a saint."
  —Esther Perel (24:08)

• Request Heard as Criticism:

  • Simple requests ("It would be nice if you brought me flowers") are interpreted by him as attacks, fueling defensiveness and tit-for-tat competition.

  "You don't hear it as a request. You instantly hear it as a protest. You hear it as a criticism."
  —Esther Perel (24:22)

4. Gendered and Cultural Scripts

• Boleros and Cultural Scripts:

  • The male partner references Latin American ballads where men see themselves as victims of love, reinforcing martyr-like pride and self-pity.

  "All the songs... give me the broken glass because I want to cut my veins... that's the man you married."
  —Male Partner & Esther Perel (12:31–13:00)

• Inherited Gender Attitudes:

  • She fixes and does the repairing, exhausting herself; he holds onto a sense of entitlement and pride (the "Principito" or Little Prince).

5. Re-Creating the Past

• Both partners are unconsciously replaying childhood scripts:

  • She becomes her mother in anger, which upsets her deeply.

    "When you yell and fight and feel like you're not yourself, does it feel like it's similar to how you saw your mom?"
    "Yes. I became my mom. And I hate that."
    —Esther Perel & Female Partner (20:38)

  • He fights against being like his father—perceived as weak—by clinging to pride and refusing to yield or validate his wife’s needs.

    "If I drop that thing, I'm going to be a weak person like my dad."
    —Male Partner (33:34)

6. Everyday Arguments Symbolize Deeper Wounds

• Petty quarrels (about cheese for breakfast) quickly become emotionally loaded, triggering childhood traumas and the need for self-defense.

  "She grew up with tremendous violence and was often threatened... our nervous system is geared up to fight as if everything is red alert."
  —Esther Perel (21:04)

• Threats of divorce, abandonment, and explosive exits are part of the cycle.

7. The Cycle of Dismissal, Gaslighting, and Emotional Invalidation

• He often dismisses her feelings, unintentionally gaslighting her, triggering the sense that she is "crazy" or invalid.

  "You gaslight me when I tell you how I feel, and you tell me, 'Oh, no, you shouldn’t be angry about that.'"
  —Female Partner (35:12)

  "But you often have the ignition key."
  —Esther Perel (36:57)

8. Moments of Empathy and Change

• She recognizes his pride may also be a survival tool from past hardship, mirroring her own.

  "Maybe this Principito has also helped you at something because if you didn’t have that pride, you couldn’t have gone far in this country as an immigrant."
  —Female Partner (28:01)

• Perel coaches them on validating each other without defensiveness:

  • Exercise: She voices a want; he tries to simply acknowledge.
  • Example: Planning Friday night together, and managing nighttime calls to his mother.

  "The best way to [acknowledge needs] is to repeat what they said, period."
  —Esther Perel (38:47)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Co-Creation of Conflict:

  "Each person is co-creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative escalations."
  —Esther Perel (08:31)

• On Cultural Scripts:

  "That telenovela has been done too many times... you've stayed rather faithful to some old stories from where we come."
  —Esther Perel (18:05)

• On the ‘Saint’ Dynamic:

  "There’s nothing more annoying than living with a saint."
  —Esther Perel (24:08)

• On the Cycle of Explosiveness and Invalidation:

  "You think that she’s the fighter because she explodes... but you are both fighters."
  —Esther Perel (33:38)

• On Gaslighting and Dismissal:

  "You gaslight me when I tell you how I feel, and you tell me, 'Oh, no, you shouldn’t be angry about that.'"
  —Female Partner (35:12)

• On Practicing Change:

  "If you keep the degree of honesty with which you came here, also with each other, you’re on a very good track."
  —Esther Perel (43:04)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:53 – Couple introduces linguistic and cultural disconnects.
• 03:02–03:57 – Unpacking their escalation from minor argument to catastrophe.
• 04:09–06:05 – His childhood, family dynamic, and battle with passivity.
• 07:38 – Her use of strong language, cultural context of emotional 'release.'
• 08:31–09:45 – Perel outlines pursuit–withdrawal “dance.”
• 16:36–18:03 – Her family violence, the role of ‘fixer,’ and self-worth.
• 21:04–22:55 – How childhood trauma creates constant alertness and reactivity.
• 24:08 – "Nothing more annoying than living with a saint."
• 27:28 – He admits to pride and fear of humiliation ("Principito").
• 31:08 – Career and personal costs of pride.
• 33:34–34:08 – Both as "fighters"; his fear of becoming his father.
• 35:12 – Gaslighting: Dismissing her emotions.
• 36:57 – His tendency to "ignite" her Lamborghini-like anger.
• 37:40–39:52 – Perel coaches validation exercises.
• 43:04 – Esther’s closing words of encouragement.

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Tone & Language

The session balances raw, emotional confession with humor and cultural specificity. Perel is gentle but incisive, using characteristically metaphorical language ("the ignition key," "the telenovela") and employing direct feedback while holding space for both partners’ vulnerability. The couple themselves move between defensiveness, pain, and occasional laughter.

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Overall Takeaway

Esther Perel demonstrates that in couples, high conflict is rarely about the surface issues. Instead, it arises from interlocking patterns molded by family histories and cultural gender scripts. She empowers both partners to see and shift their roles—from stonewalled saint and explosive villain, to co-authors of a healthier dialogue—in which feelings are acknowledged, not invalidated, and connection is slowly and thoughtfully rebuilt.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence and may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

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[Female Partner]

I thought marrying somebody from Latin America would be easy. Even though we speak in Spanish, feels like two different languages.

[Esther Perel]

He's Colombian, she's Mexican. He's 19 years older than her. He never thought he would get married. He had given up on marriage, but now they are married for a year. Being married to him, it started opening.

[Female Partner]

These Pandora boxes that I didn't know I had.

[Male Partner]

She has more explosive ways of reacting to things and I'm always kind of bringing her back like, come on, give it a moment.

[Female Partner]

And I know that I hurt him.

[Male Partner]

You know, like verbally. I can be very abusive.

[Esther Perel]

They devolve into rigid, predictable, high conflict. And so they went from heaven to hell very fast.

[Male Partner]

I do not speak with that person when she's extremely upset and explosive. I just become quiet instead of continuing a conversation where very bad words come out and it just becomes really verbally Violent. And for me, I'm like, how can I communicate with her?

[Esther Perel]

Something about rigidity and the immediacy of these types of negative escalations let me know that there is a lot more reciprocity in the patterns than any of the two of them allude to. And so we're gonna go digging.

[Male Partner]

For sure.

[Esther Perel]

But if there are things that are better said in Spanish, because your heart lives in Spanish, then we switch and I'll translate. Don't worry about that. Okay. Okay. You see, we have nasty fights from 1 to 10. How bad?

[Male Partner]

For me, they like. They're like 15.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me a little bit more about you first so that I have a sense, and then we'll go to the scene of the crime.

[Male Partner]

Okay? Okay, good. I am 19 years older than she is. So there's a different way of seeing the world just because of that.

[Esther Perel]

How did you meet?

[Male Partner]

We met in a place where we did meditation. And I've always had that curiosity to kind of find the deeper meaning of life in many ways, like, I'm very noble. Yeah, noble in the sense of childlike, almost innocent. A good heart. I feel that I have a good heart. And because of that, I feel sometimes people might take advantage of that. I see that.

[Esther Perel]

What drew you to her?

[Male Partner]

For the first time in my life, I felt that I had matured in the way I am with the person. I'm seeing this person because of what she is, not what she represents. That laundry list was gone.

[Esther Perel]

What was on the list.

[Male Partner]

On the list was there's a certain look, there's a certain level of education.

[Esther Perel]

So that if she was also extraordinaire, then you would become exactly what I would look good. Tell me a little bit more about your background in Colombia.

[Male Partner]

Overprotected, I think, by my.

[Esther Perel]

By my mom and dad.

[Male Partner]

My dad. Very noble. A good mannered person. The kind of person that never fights, but a bit absent in the process of raising the kids. It was always my mother. I've always felt that the strong women in my family, they're so strong, and they've pretty much sucked a man's brain into nothingness. And I kind of feel my dad lost his ability to just to be a man.

[Esther Perel]

So you're making sure.

[Male Partner]

I'm making sure that with her.

[Esther Perel]

That your brain doesn't get sucked out of you.

[Male Partner]

Yes. That I don't lose my identity. That I do not suck. My brain. This is mine can't touch, you know, I mean, I remember our conversation, but.

[Esther Perel]

Hold on a second. Does that mean that in part when you respond to your wife, there's a part of you that says, I'm not gonna let you do to me what my mother did to my dad.

[Male Partner]

Most likely. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And I'm gonna stand up.

[Male Partner]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

And what do you say when you're in your fighting mode with your flag, defending?

[Male Partner]

I say nothing, which gets her more upset.

[Esther Perel]

What do you say inside of you to her? You say, you ain't gonna move me. You ain't gonna push me, you ain't gonna get an inch of me. But inside you say, what?

[Male Partner]

Oh, she's acting up. She's saying crazy stuff. She'll calm down. She's making stuff up that is not going anywhere.

[Esther Perel]

So it's. The good old women are hysterical.

[Male Partner]

Yeah. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You're smiling.

[Male Partner]

Yes. But yes, yes, I would say that I go in that stereotype.

[Esther Perel]

Continue.

[Male Partner]

You're not reasoning, so I cannot have a conversation with that. And then another thing that really gets me is when her language changes into something that is very violent. I'm not used to that. I don't know how to handle that.

[Female Partner]

When I say cabron, you know, like, because when you fight in your language, you let it go, you know, so, like, there's like a release when I say it. It's more for me than for him. And I totally forget that it's gonna hurt him in some way. I just, like, let my anger go.

[Male Partner]

Yeah. For me, they're strong. Words have, for some reason, a huge impact. Like, I feel that it escalates into a place that is.

[Esther Perel]

Well, part of it is. You also think of yourself as so good. I'm such a good person. I don't deserve this. You're indignant. Something like that, sure. Say it in your own words.

[Male Partner]

I'm good and I'm a nice person. I understand my shortcomings, but I don't deserve to be treated with that language.

[Esther Perel]

The way he describes the cycle, the escalation leaves him out of the equation. It's as if he's not an active participant here. And she's doing all of this on her own. In a dance where you have one person who attacks and one person who stonewalls, or one person who withholds or withdraws, and one person who pursues. It's very important to understand that the person who withholds contributes in intensifying the pursuit of the other, and the person who pursues intensifies the need of the other to stonewall and to retreat. Each person is co creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative Escalations. You close up, you say nothing. And the less you say and the more her requests turn into protests. And you kind of wait for her to calm down on her own without engaging.

[Male Partner]

Right. And she normally does. She does that for me.

[Esther Perel]

She does what for you?

[Male Partner]

Comes back after that tsunami of extravaganza of things. She normally comes back down and I could easily go to sleep and sleep it off and then we'll talk tomorrow. She would not allow that ever to happen. We might fight until 3am she would not let it subside until some sort of communication gets to a place where we can go to sleep giving each other a hug, which is beautiful. So I kind of wait until. Oh, Lord.

[Esther Perel]

So she does the dumping and she does the repairing.

[Male Partner]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And you just are passive participant.

[Female Partner]

Very much so.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it's very interesting. It's like she runs the whole show and you're kind of almost an audience.

[Male Partner]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You watch her lose it and then you watch her regain it and then you thank her for doing it so nicely. But she does everything well.

[Male Partner]

I try to express my point of view and I've tried to say, okay, let's talk about this. This is how I feel. But it just doesn't go.

[Esther Perel]

Because that's not what it's about. You still think that it's about expressing points of views. It's like opening a small umbrella in the middle of a storm.

[Male Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And you're trying to open a small umbrella and have a rational discussion in the middle of something that has completely disregulated.

[Male Partner]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

It doesn't work.

[Male Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So that is going to have to change. Because I know when you come in here, you probably think what has to change is her.

[Male Partner]

No, I understand that. I'm a big part of the process.

[Esther Perel]

Good.

[Male Partner]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

That, yeah. Makes us move a lot faster.

[Male Partner]

No, for sure. I wouldn't be here otherwise. I know that.

[Esther Perel]

Let me hear from you a little bit. So you're in the meditation room and you see this man. And what draws you to him?

[Female Partner]

We started as friends and like the deep conversations and he had no clue. Like I had to do like all the job of seduction, you know, like he kept saying that he was already. Love was not for him. Who was not gonna.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, he was doing that part.

[Female Partner]

Yes.

[Male Partner]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Esther Perel]

There must be some ballad about that in Spanish too, no?

[Male Partner]

Oh, for sure.

[Esther Perel]

There's plenty of those where you just.

[Male Partner]

Drink a lot and listen to us boleros and.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah, some nice bolero that just kind of. With a syrup of self.

[Male Partner]

Pity oh, yeah, no, there's one called La Copa Rota. You should listen to that one.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my goodness.

[Male Partner]

It's violent.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Male Partner]

Give me the broken glass because I want to cut my veins. Yeah. All the songs. Oh, but that. This one. The lyrics. Oh, my God. Yeah. I grew up listening to that. Yeah, that one. There it is. That's it.

[Female Partner]

I've never heard this.

[Male Partner]

Oh, my goodness. That song.

[Esther Perel]

That's the man you married. He knows exactly what I'm talking about. He knows exactly which song to bring up in the Latin blues repertory. Of the man who's been treated unkindly by life, of the man who did everything and the woman abandoned him in the songs. Right. This is a script that he has learned in his childhood, but also that is part of the cultural tradition that he comes from. By putting it in the larger context of a character, it's taken out of pathology and put back into cultural legacy. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Mint Mobile. This January, you can get 50% of 3, 6 or 12 months of unlimited. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and texts delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. This January, quit overspending on wireless with 50% off unlimited premium wireless. That means plans start at $15 a month at mintmobile.com begin that's mintmobile.com begin limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12. 12 months. Plan required for $15 a month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only. More than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com what turns unrest into a.

[Narrator/Host]

Revolution and where could it lead?

[Esther Perel]

The big open question is whether this set of protests that are currently underway is the end or the beginning of the end of this third phase of sort of modern governance when it comes to Iran, the end of clerical rule. I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Finer and we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week we cover the massive nationwide protests in Iran and the US response. The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Esther Perel]

And for you.

[Female Partner]

For me, my upbringing is that it was the opposite of his household. My parents would fight in front of me. They would yell, they would scream, they would shake each other. There was a lot of banging and a lot of, you know, hitting. Like, my mom would hit me a lot. My dad would defend me. So it was like a whole Mexican telenovela that would give you, like, material for years. It was like a lot of pain and I had to put myself together many times, But I always wanted to see myself in the eyes of a man and to put my value in a relationship.

[Esther Perel]

But both of you say I was looking for a person through whom I could see myself. Yeah, it's just that you wanted somebody to fix because then you would know how important you are. And you wanted someone who was so perfect there was nothing to fix. These are very old, rather gender based scripts. In this case, he finds the perfect woman and she becomes the perfect. The perfect woman by fixing the broken man who cries without solace.

[Female Partner]

Yes, totally.

[Esther Perel]

That telenovela has been done too many times. No matter how much you've traveled, the two of you, you've stayed rather faithful to some old stories from where we come true.

[Male Partner]

From the place where we come.

[Esther Perel]

They travel with us, you know, for all of us. They travel with us, but sometimes we don't realize it. Tell me something. When you fight, you threaten each other with divorce all the time.

[Female Partner]

All the time.

[Male Partner]

She does. I know.

[Female Partner]

I even go online and I find tickets. And he's like, but your immigration. I don't care about my visa. I don't care about my green card. I'm out. You know, Like, I always just want.

[Male Partner]

To escape, you know, she goes to 100% or 120. I kind of stay back at, you know, wait, let's see.

[Female Partner]

But I think that for me is, like, when I'm fighting, I go to this void, and it's like this, like, anger takes over me, and it's so difficult for me to explain him because in his eyes, everything he does is perfect. So, for example, if we're having a conversation and I say, it would be so nice if you brought me flowers, he's like, why are you not buying me flowers? I'm a human, too. I have feelings, too. Like, oh, it'd be so nice that you tell me how nice I look. Why are you not telling me that I look so nice? So it's, like, always about him, and it's never about me. And I don't know if that's a very childlike part of me or what, but, like, I am. I think I'm exhausted because now that you describe it, I was like, wow, I do everything. That's right. It never occurred to me. Like, I do the repair and I do the break, and then I do the cleanup.

[Esther Perel]

He does the being nice. Yeah.

[Female Partner]

Now he's getting better, at least at talking. But before, he would just go into the room and, like, literally put the.

[Esther Perel]

He sulks.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Female Partner]

Because he doesn't like me to tell him, cabron or pendejo. But for me, he's saying, fuck you. And I'm like, this is a person, your wife, talking to you. Like, help me. Like, don't let me go through hell alone. Like, let's talk about this. And then also, what happens maybe is that I get angry so fast that it's never about the conversation, the trigger. It's never about what happened that it got me angry. The conversation then becomes who you are, a bad person. Because you got so angry.

[Esther Perel]

When you yell and fight and feel like you're not yourself, does it feel like it's similar to how you saw your mom?

[Female Partner]

Yes. I became my mom. And I hate that. I mean, she has beautiful parts.

[Esther Perel]

So do you, but. Thank you.

[Female Partner]

But her toxic parts are very, very intense. And the worst thing I see is, like, seeing myself as fighting as she would be fighting.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Because she's a very, very important part of you. She's a mixed blessing. She's the one that has taken you out of many tough situations. But she sometimes fights as if every situation is a tough situation where, in fact, you're just talking about breakfast. She grew up with tremendous violence and was often threatened. And as a result, she developed a vigilant skills to detect threat and to take her anger and to turn her fear into belligerence so that she could defend herself. But what happens to us when this is our childhood is that later on, we sometimes don't know really to differentiate. Is this a threatening situation or is this just an unpleasant situation? And so our nervous system is geared up to fight as if everything is red alert. The part that struggles more is the one that doesn't necessarily know to assess danger, since danger is imminent and could happen anywhere at any moment. God forbid you got too comfortable. Your whole marriage becomes a threat. It becomes a danger from which you need to leave right away, when in fact, you're having an argument about breakfast.

[Male Partner]

About cheese.

[Esther Perel]

About cheese.

[Male Partner]

The last one was about cheese.

[Esther Perel]

Glad I am. So I was close.

[Female Partner]

He didn't want cheese. And I'm like, how dare you? I know he's a good man, and I didn't want my anger to transform him or to push him away. And I think that is something that I would not forgive myself if I would have pushed him away because of my violence.

[Esther Perel]

The thing that I keep being moved by when I listen to you is that nowhere do you justify it. And I think that makes a big difference for him. At the same time, as you learn to speak with him in a way where you speak forcefully but without lashing out, he's going to need to learn to stay and not continuously think. You know, nobody has a right to criticize me on anything or even to ask me for anything or to make me feel anything less than perfect. That's the flip side of this. See, she then goes around thinking, I'm so bad. And you go around thinking, I'm so good. And there's nothing more annoying than living with a saint.

[Male Partner]

For me, it's almost. I don't know how to deal with it. Maybe because of that.

[Esther Perel]

Well, when she says, I would love for you to bring me flowers. What's the problem with that statement?

[Male Partner]

Exactly?

[Esther Perel]

Tell me.

[Male Partner]

Nothing.

[Esther Perel]

Obviously there is, because you don't hear it as a request. You instantly hear it as a protest. You hear it as a criticism.

[Male Partner]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And then you say, well, do you do it? And you do this eye for eye business.

[Male Partner]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Then you go into a competition who does more, who sacrifices more. Do you do that one, too?

[Female Partner]

Oh, sure, yeah, all the time.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me about that one.

[Female Partner]

He comes home and I have the meal ready one day. I didn't. And he's like, why is the meal not ready? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kind of, you know, giving me the macho Latino. And I'm like, no, honey, I work, too. I'm tired, too. You want dinner, you cook it yourself. And then he could go like, whoa, you know? Or he gets angry. He gets, like, a little bit fuzzy, but that was it. And then on that note, on another day, I was trying to. He was falling asleep, and I was trying to kiss him or, you know, starting to try to do something, and then he's like, I'm falling asleep. I'm tired. And then I got so angry. I'm like, I'm tired, too. But, like, you know, like, we have to make time for these things.

[Male Partner]

No, I was just falling asleep. I was very tired, and I wasn't thinking of that.

[Female Partner]

And in a way, it's like that, you know, like, he's always perfect. He's always fine. Whatever he does is great. So there's no more room for. For, like, improvement or to give, like, the little bit extra mile, you know, Like, I can give all the extra mile there is, but he won't.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, you do put her to work, and you have this interesting, if you allow me, please, way of thinking that you're entitled. Yes, There is an expectation that there should be a meal ready on the table when you come home.

[Male Partner]

I was alone most of my life, so I would come home and make my own meal. I got used to that. But now it's probably like, oh, thank you for. This is great. This feels great.

[Esther Perel]

But do you tell her this feels great, or do you mostly tell her on the one day when she doesn't?

[Male Partner]

I tell her on the day when she does. Well, I also tell her when she cooks for me. Thank you. That was very nice. This is beautiful. I do tell her that as well. But also, when he's not there, I'm.

[Female Partner]

Like, you tell me more on the day that there's nothing there.

[Male Partner]

Okay.

[Female Partner]

Also, like, if I'm watching Netflix and I'm just like, my five minutes of Netflix and chill, and you open the door, you expect me to come run and kiss you and, welcome, honey, how are you? And then he gets annoyed, and he says that my iPad is my affair.

[Esther Perel]

But it wouldn't occur to you to walk over to her?

[Male Partner]

What? I mean, to walk over to her.

[Esther Perel]

Instead of waiting for her to leap towards you.

[Male Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

You could also go towards her. Go to her.

[Male Partner]

Yes. Yes, of course.

[Esther Perel]

But you're too good for that. See, that you would consider is humiliating.

[Male Partner]

Yes. I am aware of a tremendous pride that I carry everywhere I go.

[Esther Perel]

What do you call him? The one that is so proud that anything that is not catered at the top can instantly make him feel deflated and humiliated.

[Male Partner]

He's like the Little Prince Principito. Yeah, I mean, I catch myself being that person that I despise.

[Female Partner]

Maybe this Principito. It has also helped you at something because if you didn't have that pride, you couldn't have gone far in this country as an immigrant.

[Esther Perel]

It's a very nice moment here. She caught on to the idea that the part that she struggles with today is also the part that saved her as a child. And she realizes that something similar may be happening with him, that the part of him that he calls his pride and that he struggles with may also have been a part of his survival strategy earlier on. It's just a beautiful empathic reach from her and I just wish that I had highlighted it then. We need to take a break, but please stay with us. This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. Powered by Peloton iq, with real time.

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[Male Partner]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I think I could have done much better without him.

[Esther Perel]

Describe your relationship with the Principito because I agree with you. I'm not sure it has been so helpful. I think it has often actually made him say I'm too good for this.

[Male Partner]

It has hurt me quite a Bit in my career, I feel that.

[Esther Perel]

I feel that. Say more.

[Male Partner]

I would say my career because I had an opportunity to be with amazing people, and I could have taken better advantage of that by being more humble and learning from them. But the Little Prince was equal.

[Esther Perel]

The Little Prince was too busy trying to show how much he knew.

[Male Partner]

Yeah. How good he was. He was just as good as everyone else. And I think in life, every day, walk around with these things, you just lose so much opportunity to meet, talk to people, connect.

[Esther Perel]

You come in here and you present like you're a new couple. You're lots of great things, except for the fact that she explodes and her explosiveness is so disturbing to you and it completely paralyzes you, etc. But then we find out this is predicated on this idea that, you know, you are the saint. You're the grounded guy, and. And you are the emotional.

[Male Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Hysterical. Let's put the right word. You know, this way that you live with the. How dare you? How dare you ask me. How dare you tell me how dare you. Usually is, because I very quickly feel ashamed. Mm.

[Male Partner]

And that creates all this anger.

[Esther Perel]

And I would invite you to have a conversation with him about that. You'll probably glean more.

[Female Partner]

Yeah, I can see that.

[Esther Perel]

Ask him. Let him do the talking to you, since you always do the talking and he waits.

[Female Partner]

Would you like to talk more about why you might feel that you get offended quickly?

[Male Partner]

I'm so good, right? I'm great. I'm so wise. I've done all this meditation, and I've done all this schooling, so I deserve to be treated in a certain way. And it goes back to, I guess, the goodness of my dad. My dad was always a good man.

[Esther Perel]

But what did you consider him? You considered him good? Weak, or you considered him weak?

[Male Partner]

Weak.

[Esther Perel]

That's what this is.

[Male Partner]

So he's like a beautiful man, always with a great personality. But I always felt like he never got what he wanted. He always was a nice guy.

[Esther Perel]

And you spend your time making sure that nobody takes advantage of you.

[Male Partner]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

So you fight even when you don't need to fight.

[Male Partner]

If I drop that thing, I'm gonna be a weak person like my dad.

[Esther Perel]

You think that she's the fighter because she explodes personality.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But you are both fighters. And like you say or like you allude to, it probably has not done you good, certainly not in work. And it's not going to do you good here either, because you are with somebody who's very generous.

[Female Partner]

See? And generous, too.

[Esther Perel]

And don't let him convince you that you're not. You're very generous, and he is continuously paying attention to every time you miss a beat and not to every other time when you sing beautifully because you're so making sure that you are not being screwed. This dynamic is actually an opportunity because you are with someone who is not there to take advantage of you. And you're going to learn what it's like to trust in that way.

[Female Partner]

You know, when you have that armor with you, it feels like everything that I'm upset about, it's an illusion. And it's like if you're gaslighting me and that's not a good feeling. So thank you for being willing to remove that armor because it's.

[Esther Perel]

How does he gaslight you?

[Female Partner]

Tell him you gaslight me when I tell you you know how I feel, and you tell me, oh, no, you shouldn't be angry about that.

[Male Partner]

Like, I dismiss it.

[Female Partner]

And then you make me feel that I am creating this idea in my head and that what I am feeling is not valid for me.

[Male Partner]

It's difficult when the situation goes from 0 to 100 in 0.2 seconds, you're like a Lamborghini.

[Esther Perel]

I think that what's difficult for you, you're so busy with the 0 to 100. But there's a piece before. And the piece before is that if she says, I feel something, my guess is that part of why you tell her, no, you don't is because it's very hard for you to let her feel something without thinking that you're responsible about it.

[Male Partner]

The 0 to 100 happens. The trigger is right behind it, and it's.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, but the first thing is she can't really easily tell you whatever she feels without your being defensive about it, because it instantly triggers in you. I'm responsible for it and I need to do something about it. And since I don't think I should do something about it or I don't agree with it, then I say, no, you have no validity, and I disqualify. You shouldn't feel this way. You shouldn't want this. And then the Lamborghini gets going. Yeah, because then she feels that, you know, she's disqualified and made invisible and she's going to show you Lamborghini is inside of her. But you often have the ignition key.

[Male Partner]

I got the gas.

[Esther Perel]

That doesn't mean that you can't learn not to explode. But there is a dance here that sets her up as well. Can she say, I feel something? And you just say, that's interesting.

[Male Partner]

How so, yes, that's very different.

[Esther Perel]

Can you give him a bunch of those statements, things you feel, want, experience, and just. You practice being, you know, being available, basically, without being responsible, just being curious.

[Male Partner]

Go ahead.

[Female Partner]

I would like for you to come out with me on Friday night after you come back from work, because it's like our only night off.

[Male Partner]

I would love to. You know that Fridays I'm extremely exhausted. But we'll do something that will meet our needs. Sometimes I might not be in the mood to go dancing because I'm physically tired from a long week, but we can have a.

[Esther Perel]

Let me help you. I know you would love for us to go out on Friday night. I really like that, actually. I'm not sure I can do it each time, but I like the thought. And just repeat what she says. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to commit to anything. You don't have to engage with it. You just have to say, I like that. Just have to acknowledge it. Or I hear that that's something that you would enjoy a lot. That's that most of the time people just want to feel that they're acknowledged being heard.

[Male Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And the best way to do that is to repeat what they said, period.

[Female Partner]

Keep going, honey. It would be great that you would be able to consider not to talk to your mom every night before we go to bed. And that. That is the last thing you do before we get to bed together. I know you're worried about her. I know you're worried about your dad. But I feel that when you do that, you just go into a different mindset and you get very agitated or very sad. And I don't think it. Yeah, I don't think it's good for us.

[Male Partner]

I hear what you're saying. What I can do is find ways to get information from her at a time that is not disruptive to the time that we can spend. But I still feel that I want to know. I want to have updates and see how they're doing.

[Female Partner]

Okay. How did we do on that one?

[Esther Perel]

You tell me. How did that feel?

[Female Partner]

It felt good. It felt better. It felt more honest. It felt good.

[Esther Perel]

What would be the usual.

[Female Partner]

You are not understanding my mom. You don't understand how she feels. She's going through a hard time. How can you not be more empathetic? Blah, blah, blah, Kind of.

[Esther Perel]

Which you know, is not the case. This is a perfect example of the ignition of the Lamborghini because you're throwing stuff at her. That is utterly not the case. You bad.

[Male Partner]

Mm. You don't care about my mom or you don't care about.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, you bad. You bad. You don't care about my mom. You don't understand my dad. You don't see what imminent death is like. As if she doesn't, first of all. And then you're telling me I'm bad. That brings back the entire relationship and the violence that. I know what you think she was told when she was being hit.

[Male Partner]

That she's, you know, she's bad.

[Female Partner]

And with the family especially, it's been hard because when you say hurtful things like, oh, you don't have a relationship.

[Esther Perel]

With your mom, so you don't understand. You don't understand. Oh, yeah, you go to that place, you're good.

[Female Partner]

Oh, you don't speak to them. You are the weird ones. You're the ones that are not speaking with each other so often.

[Esther Perel]

What makes me smile, of course, is that this man who is so worried about being manipulated is a master manipulator. Because it's not just that he tells her, you don't understand why I care about my father's health and I need the updates. But then he adds another layer of. And of course, you couldn't understand because you don't nearly have that kind of relationship with your parents. It's hostile. But he thinks of himself as good, and she has bought into the idea that she's the belligerent one and he's the kind one. All of that is Kindle for the fire. But then you only see the fire and you do not see how much you contribute. Yeah, and ignite it. Contribute to ignite it doesn't mean she can't resist it. But it doesn't come from nowhere, so this was much better. Find a way to connect with your parents before. Not before you go to sleep, so that you can be the husband and not the son of. Yeah, but I think that you have a lot of things on your menu, and now it's about putting this in.

[Male Partner]

Place.

[Esther Perel]

And realizing that you won't leave here and suddenly transform, but you're going to practice this and you have a good idea, actually, of what works, what is helpful and what is undermining. And if you keep the degree of honesty with which you came here, also with each other, you're on a very good track.

[Narrator/Host]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut to apply with your partner for a session on the podcast. For the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estheraparell.com Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esteraparell.com.