Episode Summary: "Love in War - Where Are They Now?"

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Date: December 8, 2025

Overview

This poignant episode revisits Ileana and Andrew, a Ukrainian couple who first appeared in the early weeks of the war, separated by distance and danger, struggling to maintain their relationship amid crisis. Now, more than two years later, Esther reconnects with them following their emotional reunion and resettlement in Switzerland. The session explores identity, intimacy, shifting gender roles, and the long shadow of war on family and love. Esther guides them through the pain and hope of rebuilding both their individual selves and their marriage, spotlighting the tension between survival and aliveness.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Separation and Reunion in War

Initial Separation
- Ileana fled Ukraine with their younger son soon after the war began; Andrew and their older son remained behind due to conscription rules ([01:30]).
- The couple describes enduring time apart as "an open wound" and “very hard” on the family ([01:30], [01:44]).
Life as Refugees
- Ileana builds a new life in France: finds work, builds community, but remains emotionally drained and longing for Andrew ([07:39], [08:13]).
- Andrew makes the gut-wrenching decision to leave Ukraine, sacrificing his identity as provider to preserve his family ([03:23], [06:32]).
Return and Adaptation
- Reunification brings relief and "paradise" at first, but soon reality sets in: new roles, language barriers, and unemployment erode Andrew’s sense of self ([09:34], [11:23]).
- Ileana expresses the emotional toll of continuing to carry both 'feminine and masculine' burdens, yearning for Andrew’s restored strength ([16:22], [17:20]).

2. Identity, Roles, and Power Dynamics

Andrew’s Loss of Identity
- “I was a commercial officer, a leader...but here, I’m no one. I lose confidence.” — Andrew ([12:19], [21:47]).
- He feels emasculated, unable to provide or support — a big shift for both partners ([12:45]).
Ileana’s Perspective
- Iloana expected Andrew’s arrival to bring relief and shared responsibility but is confronted with his vulnerability and passivity ([17:48], [18:04]).
- “The hardest moment for me was seeing him…just losing his masculinity, his power, his strength” ([18:04]).
Changing Relationship Dynamics
- Clear previous roles are now in flux. Their interdependence is destabilized, leading to emotional disconnect ([14:35], [15:47]).

3. The Impact on Intimacy

Drifting Affection
- Their physical and romantic connection suffers; previously playful and erotic rituals seem out of reach ([32:07], [32:28]).
- "I need that man in a suit… I need his power. And I don’t know how I can help him considering the situation we are in right now.” — Ileana ([33:10]).
Anger and Loss
- Ileana confesses both anger and grief at Andrew’s changed state: "I'm just discovering a totally new man" ([28:14], [30:16]).
- Andrew admits he misses the man he was, too ([30:00]).

4. Grief, Depression, and Existential Crisis

Andrew’s Grief and Depression
- Struggles with unemployment, grief over missing his father’s funeral, and a crisis of meaning ([13:19], [13:39], [21:47]).
- Esther notes: “He’s losing his not just joie de vivre, but raison d’être.” ([22:44], [23:12]).
Mutual Fears and Projections
- Ileana fears Andrew is becoming stuck in a state she once knew herself—depression after her mother’s death ([46:53], [47:22]).
- Their anxieties loop: her fear of being unsupported and his fear of being unworthy feed each other ([45:46], [46:13]).

5. Esther’s Interventions: Imagination, Play, and Erotic Aliveness

Role-Play Exercise
- Esther asks them to “put on their going out clothes” — Andrew dons his only suit, Ileana does her hair and makeup ([33:39]–[35:29]).
- This playful, physical ritual reawakens attraction and reminds them of past passions, even on Zoom ([35:29], [36:04]).
Restoring Imagination and Connection
- Esther encourages the use of imagination to reclaim moments of joy and intimacy: “Maybe you have to put the suit on more often… create these opportunities just for the sake of it.” ([40:52]).
- She recommends low-cost ways to revive date nights and spark connection — e.g., swapping apartments with friends, walk by the river in nice clothes ([41:15]).
Reframing Masculinity and Purpose
- Esther highlights the "narrow image of masculinity" both unconsciously share and urges them to expand how they see Andrew’s value and their togetherness ([40:34]).
- Reminds them they've survived past crises and can draw on that resilience ([50:19]).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Loss and Fear
- “You became younger. You look so beautiful. Time doesn’t work for you.” — Andrew to Ileana upon seeing her again ([04:39]).
- “It was a choice between bad and worse.” — Ileana ([03:47]).
- “If you not put some in this bank of love you just only spend. Sometimes will be zero. And it just scare me.” — Andrew ([06:32]).
- “I dreamed about this — every night when we lay in one bed, cover, one blanket.” — Andrew ([42:58]–[43:14]).
On Gender Roles and Identity Shift
- “I am a dreamer. I dream big. And we couldn't really match. We couldn't talk...” — Ileana ([18:42]).
- “I think the hardest moment for me was seeing him...losing his masculinity, his power, his strength.” — Ileana ([18:04]).
- “You are dependent on her, you don't like it and she doesn't like it necessarily either.” — Esther ([14:57]).
On Healing and Aliveness
- “It’s your imagination that is the ultimate freedom.” — Esther ([41:15]).
- “This won’t solve the problems, but this may help you manage the problems better.” — Esther ([42:20]).
- “Much of the focus on working with people who are experiencing traumatic events is often looking at presence, joy, pleasure... What I think they fully understood was that pleasure is actually part of the medicine.” — Esther ([53:29], [53:54]).

Notable Segments with Timestamps

[03:23] — Andrew describes leaving Ukraine, the pain of separation, and the existential crossroads of family vs. homeland.
[06:32] — Insightful metaphor: “bank account of love” explaining emotional depletion.
[08:13] — Ileana describes adapting to France, her community, and faithfulness to Andrew.
[09:34]–[12:45] — Andrew describes the emotional “paradise” of reunion, followed by his crushing unemployment and reversal of provider role.
[14:35] — Esther analyzes the deeply destabilized power dynamic and loss of status.
[16:22]–[20:02] — Ileana’s exhaustion from carrying both feminine/masculine roles; the dream of restored partnership.
[21:47]–[22:44] — Andrew and Esther discuss his existential crisis and loss of purpose.
[28:09]–[33:10] — Esther’s direct discussion with Ileana about anger, grief, and the erotic impact of Andrew’s changed identity.
[33:39]–[35:29] — Esther leads the ‘date night dress-up’ intervention; both spouses experience a powerful emotional shift.
[40:34] — Esther confronts shared ‘narrow image of masculinity’.
[42:20]–[43:14] — Importance of imagination, play, and remembering foundational joys.
[53:29]–[54:07] — Closing reflections: pleasure and aliveness as necessary medicine in trauma.

Tone & Language

The session’s tone is deeply empathetic, raw, and honest—often moving between grief, longing, and hope. Esther guides her clients with direct questions and warmth, inviting both vulnerability and levity. The couple’s language often reflects exhaustion and yearning—both for old versions of themselves and for a new, sustainable way to love through trauma.

For Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in the emotional reality of war refugees, gender roles, and the delicate work of learning to love as changed people. Esther’s interventions provide practical tools for navigating identity loss, relationship strain, and maintaining a sense of intimacy and playfulness in even the most dire circumstances.

For a visual before/after of Esther’s “date night” exercise, visit Esther Perel’s Substack as mentioned in the episode.

Episode Summary: "Love in War - Where Are They Now?"

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Date: December 8, 2025

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Separation and Reunion in War

Initial Separation
- Ileana fled Ukraine with their younger son soon after the war began; Andrew and their older son remained behind due to conscription rules ([01:30]).
- The couple describes enduring time apart as "an open wound" and “very hard” on the family ([01:30], [01:44]).
Life as Refugees
- Ileana builds a new life in France: finds work, builds community, but remains emotionally drained and longing for Andrew ([07:39], [08:13]).
- Andrew makes the gut-wrenching decision to leave Ukraine, sacrificing his identity as provider to preserve his family ([03:23], [06:32]).
Return and Adaptation
- Reunification brings relief and "paradise" at first, but soon reality sets in: new roles, language barriers, and unemployment erode Andrew’s sense of self ([09:34], [11:23]).
- Ileana expresses the emotional toll of continuing to carry both 'feminine and masculine' burdens, yearning for Andrew’s restored strength ([16:22], [17:20]).

2. Identity, Roles, and Power Dynamics

Andrew’s Loss of Identity
- “I was a commercial officer, a leader...but here, I’m no one. I lose confidence.” — Andrew ([12:19], [21:47]).
- He feels emasculated, unable to provide or support — a big shift for both partners ([12:45]).
Ileana’s Perspective
- Iloana expected Andrew’s arrival to bring relief and shared responsibility but is confronted with his vulnerability and passivity ([17:48], [18:04]).
- “The hardest moment for me was seeing him…just losing his masculinity, his power, his strength” ([18:04]).
Changing Relationship Dynamics
- Clear previous roles are now in flux. Their interdependence is destabilized, leading to emotional disconnect ([14:35], [15:47]).

3. The Impact on Intimacy

Drifting Affection
- Their physical and romantic connection suffers; previously playful and erotic rituals seem out of reach ([32:07], [32:28]).
- "I need that man in a suit… I need his power. And I don’t know how I can help him considering the situation we are in right now.” — Ileana ([33:10]).
Anger and Loss
- Ileana confesses both anger and grief at Andrew’s changed state: "I'm just discovering a totally new man" ([28:14], [30:16]).
- Andrew admits he misses the man he was, too ([30:00]).

4. Grief, Depression, and Existential Crisis

Andrew’s Grief and Depression
- Struggles with unemployment, grief over missing his father’s funeral, and a crisis of meaning ([13:19], [13:39], [21:47]).
- Esther notes: “He’s losing his not just joie de vivre, but raison d’être.” ([22:44], [23:12]).
Mutual Fears and Projections
- Ileana fears Andrew is becoming stuck in a state she once knew herself—depression after her mother’s death ([46:53], [47:22]).
- Their anxieties loop: her fear of being unsupported and his fear of being unworthy feed each other ([45:46], [46:13]).

5. Esther’s Interventions: Imagination, Play, and Erotic Aliveness

Role-Play Exercise
- Esther asks them to “put on their going out clothes” — Andrew dons his only suit, Ileana does her hair and makeup ([33:39]–[35:29]).
- This playful, physical ritual reawakens attraction and reminds them of past passions, even on Zoom ([35:29], [36:04]).
Restoring Imagination and Connection
- Esther encourages the use of imagination to reclaim moments of joy and intimacy: “Maybe you have to put the suit on more often… create these opportunities just for the sake of it.” ([40:52]).
- She recommends low-cost ways to revive date nights and spark connection — e.g., swapping apartments with friends, walk by the river in nice clothes ([41:15]).
Reframing Masculinity and Purpose
- Esther highlights the "narrow image of masculinity" both unconsciously share and urges them to expand how they see Andrew’s value and their togetherness ([40:34]).
- Reminds them they've survived past crises and can draw on that resilience ([50:19]).

Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Loss and Fear
- “You became younger. You look so beautiful. Time doesn’t work for you.” — Andrew to Ileana upon seeing her again ([04:39]).
- “It was a choice between bad and worse.” — Ileana ([03:47]).
- “If you not put some in this bank of love you just only spend. Sometimes will be zero. And it just scare me.” — Andrew ([06:32]).
- “I dreamed about this — every night when we lay in one bed, cover, one blanket.” — Andrew ([42:58]–[43:14]).
On Gender Roles and Identity Shift
- “I am a dreamer. I dream big. And we couldn't really match. We couldn't talk...” — Ileana ([18:42]).
- “I think the hardest moment for me was seeing him...losing his masculinity, his power, his strength.” — Ileana ([18:04]).
- “You are dependent on her, you don't like it and she doesn't like it necessarily either.” — Esther ([14:57]).
On Healing and Aliveness
- “It’s your imagination that is the ultimate freedom.” — Esther ([41:15]).
- “This won’t solve the problems, but this may help you manage the problems better.” — Esther ([42:20]).
- “Much of the focus on working with people who are experiencing traumatic events is often looking at presence, joy, pleasure... What I think they fully understood was that pleasure is actually part of the medicine.” — Esther ([53:29], [53:54]).

Notable Segments with Timestamps

[03:23] — Andrew describes leaving Ukraine, the pain of separation, and the existential crossroads of family vs. homeland.
[06:32] — Insightful metaphor: “bank account of love” explaining emotional depletion.
[08:13] — Ileana describes adapting to France, her community, and faithfulness to Andrew.
[09:34]–[12:45] — Andrew describes the emotional “paradise” of reunion, followed by his crushing unemployment and reversal of provider role.
[14:35] — Esther analyzes the deeply destabilized power dynamic and loss of status.
[16:22]–[20:02] — Ileana’s exhaustion from carrying both feminine/masculine roles; the dream of restored partnership.
[21:47]–[22:44] — Andrew and Esther discuss his existential crisis and loss of purpose.
[28:09]–[33:10] — Esther’s direct discussion with Ileana about anger, grief, and the erotic impact of Andrew’s changed identity.
[33:39]–[35:29] — Esther leads the ‘date night dress-up’ intervention; both spouses experience a powerful emotional shift.
[40:34] — Esther confronts shared ‘narrow image of masculinity’.
[42:20]–[43:14] — Importance of imagination, play, and remembering foundational joys.
[53:29]–[54:07] — Closing reflections: pleasure and aliveness as necessary medicine in trauma.

Tone & Language

For Listeners

For a visual before/after of Esther’s “date night” exercise, visit Esther Perel’s Substack as mentioned in the episode.

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Love in War - Where Are They Now?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Love in War - Where Are They Now?"

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Separation and Reunion in War

2. Identity, Roles, and Power Dynamics

3. The Impact on Intimacy

4. Grief, Depression, and Existential Crisis

5. Esther’s Interventions: Imagination, Play, and Erotic Aliveness

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Notable Segments with Timestamps

Tone & Language

For Listeners

Transcript

Summary

Episode Summary: "Love in War - Where Are They Now?"

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Separation and Reunion in War

2. Identity, Roles, and Power Dynamics

3. The Impact on Intimacy

4. Grief, Depression, and Existential Crisis

5. Esther’s Interventions: Imagination, Play, and Erotic Aliveness

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Notable Segments with Timestamps

Tone & Language

For Listeners