Love in War - Where Are They Now?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Love in War - Where Are They Now?"

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Date: December 8, 2025

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Overview

This poignant episode revisits Ileana and Andrew, a Ukrainian couple who first appeared in the early weeks of the war, separated by distance and danger, struggling to maintain their relationship amid crisis. Now, more than two years later, Esther reconnects with them following their emotional reunion and resettlement in Switzerland. The session explores identity, intimacy, shifting gender roles, and the long shadow of war on family and love. Esther guides them through the pain and hope of rebuilding both their individual selves and their marriage, spotlighting the tension between survival and aliveness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Separation and Reunion in War

• Initial Separation

  • Ileana fled Ukraine with their younger son soon after the war began; Andrew and their older son remained behind due to conscription rules ([01:30]).
  • The couple describes enduring time apart as "an open wound" and “very hard” on the family ([01:30], [01:44]).

• Life as Refugees

  • Ileana builds a new life in France: finds work, builds community, but remains emotionally drained and longing for Andrew ([07:39], [08:13]).
  • Andrew makes the gut-wrenching decision to leave Ukraine, sacrificing his identity as provider to preserve his family ([03:23], [06:32]).

• Return and Adaptation

  • Reunification brings relief and "paradise" at first, but soon reality sets in: new roles, language barriers, and unemployment erode Andrew’s sense of self ([09:34], [11:23]).
  • Ileana expresses the emotional toll of continuing to carry both 'feminine and masculine' burdens, yearning for Andrew’s restored strength ([16:22], [17:20]).

2. Identity, Roles, and Power Dynamics

• Andrew’s Loss of Identity

  • “I was a commercial officer, a leader...but here, I’m no one. I lose confidence.” — Andrew ([12:19], [21:47]).
  • He feels emasculated, unable to provide or support — a big shift for both partners ([12:45]).

• Ileana’s Perspective

  • Iloana expected Andrew’s arrival to bring relief and shared responsibility but is confronted with his vulnerability and passivity ([17:48], [18:04]).
  • “The hardest moment for me was seeing him…just losing his masculinity, his power, his strength” ([18:04]).

• Changing Relationship Dynamics

  • Clear previous roles are now in flux. Their interdependence is destabilized, leading to emotional disconnect ([14:35], [15:47]).

3. The Impact on Intimacy

• Drifting Affection

  • Their physical and romantic connection suffers; previously playful and erotic rituals seem out of reach ([32:07], [32:28]).
  • "I need that man in a suit… I need his power. And I don’t know how I can help him considering the situation we are in right now.” — Ileana ([33:10]).

• Anger and Loss

  • Ileana confesses both anger and grief at Andrew’s changed state: "I'm just discovering a totally new man" ([28:14], [30:16]).
  • Andrew admits he misses the man he was, too ([30:00]).

4. Grief, Depression, and Existential Crisis

• Andrew’s Grief and Depression

  • Struggles with unemployment, grief over missing his father’s funeral, and a crisis of meaning ([13:19], [13:39], [21:47]).
  • Esther notes: “He’s losing his not just joie de vivre, but raison d’être.” ([22:44], [23:12]).

• Mutual Fears and Projections

  • Ileana fears Andrew is becoming stuck in a state she once knew herself—depression after her mother’s death ([46:53], [47:22]).
  • Their anxieties loop: her fear of being unsupported and his fear of being unworthy feed each other ([45:46], [46:13]).

5. Esther’s Interventions: Imagination, Play, and Erotic Aliveness

• Role-Play Exercise

  • Esther asks them to “put on their going out clothes” — Andrew dons his only suit, Ileana does her hair and makeup ([33:39]–[35:29]).
  • This playful, physical ritual reawakens attraction and reminds them of past passions, even on Zoom ([35:29], [36:04]).

• Restoring Imagination and Connection

  • Esther encourages the use of imagination to reclaim moments of joy and intimacy: “Maybe you have to put the suit on more often… create these opportunities just for the sake of it.” ([40:52]).
  • She recommends low-cost ways to revive date nights and spark connection — e.g., swapping apartments with friends, walk by the river in nice clothes ([41:15]).

• Reframing Masculinity and Purpose

  • Esther highlights the "narrow image of masculinity" both unconsciously share and urges them to expand how they see Andrew’s value and their togetherness ([40:34]).
  • Reminds them they've survived past crises and can draw on that resilience ([50:19]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Loss and Fear

  • “You became younger. You look so beautiful. Time doesn’t work for you.” — Andrew to Ileana upon seeing her again ([04:39]).
  • “It was a choice between bad and worse.” — Ileana ([03:47]).
  • “If you not put some in this bank of love you just only spend. Sometimes will be zero. And it just scare me.” — Andrew ([06:32]).
  • “I dreamed about this — every night when we lay in one bed, cover, one blanket.” — Andrew ([42:58]–[43:14]).

• On Gender Roles and Identity Shift

  • “I am a dreamer. I dream big. And we couldn't really match. We couldn't talk...” — Ileana ([18:42]).
  • “I think the hardest moment for me was seeing him...losing his masculinity, his power, his strength.” — Ileana ([18:04]).
  • “You are dependent on her, you don't like it and she doesn't like it necessarily either.” — Esther ([14:57]).

• On Healing and Aliveness

  • “It’s your imagination that is the ultimate freedom.” — Esther ([41:15]).
  • “This won’t solve the problems, but this may help you manage the problems better.” — Esther ([42:20]).
  • “Much of the focus on working with people who are experiencing traumatic events is often looking at presence, joy, pleasure... What I think they fully understood was that pleasure is actually part of the medicine.” — Esther ([53:29], [53:54]).

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Notable Segments with Timestamps

• [03:23] — Andrew describes leaving Ukraine, the pain of separation, and the existential crossroads of family vs. homeland.
• [06:32] — Insightful metaphor: “bank account of love” explaining emotional depletion.
• [08:13] — Ileana describes adapting to France, her community, and faithfulness to Andrew.
• [09:34]–[12:45] — Andrew describes the emotional “paradise” of reunion, followed by his crushing unemployment and reversal of provider role.
• [14:35] — Esther analyzes the deeply destabilized power dynamic and loss of status.
• [16:22]–[20:02] — Ileana’s exhaustion from carrying both feminine/masculine roles; the dream of restored partnership.
• [21:47]–[22:44] — Andrew and Esther discuss his existential crisis and loss of purpose.
• [28:09]–[33:10] — Esther’s direct discussion with Ileana about anger, grief, and the erotic impact of Andrew’s changed identity.
• [33:39]–[35:29] — Esther leads the ‘date night dress-up’ intervention; both spouses experience a powerful emotional shift.
• [40:34] — Esther confronts shared ‘narrow image of masculinity’.
• [42:20]–[43:14] — Importance of imagination, play, and remembering foundational joys.
• [53:29]–[54:07] — Closing reflections: pleasure and aliveness as necessary medicine in trauma.

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Tone & Language

The session’s tone is deeply empathetic, raw, and honest—often moving between grief, longing, and hope. Esther guides her clients with direct questions and warmth, inviting both vulnerability and levity. The couple’s language often reflects exhaustion and yearning—both for old versions of themselves and for a new, sustainable way to love through trauma.

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For Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in the emotional reality of war refugees, gender roles, and the delicate work of learning to love as changed people. Esther’s interventions provide practical tools for navigating identity loss, relationship strain, and maintaining a sense of intimacy and playfulness in even the most dire circumstances.

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For a visual before/after of Esther’s “date night” exercise, visit Esther Perel’s Substack as mentioned in the episode.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

Support for this show comes from Nordstrom.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, what fun.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Ileana]

I left on the third day of war. It was difficult to leave. It was like an open wound. But anyway, the decision should have been made because there was no option. Also, thinking about our children, it was.

[Andrew]

Very hard to separate separate our family. But I know it's better for a Leona be in the safe country and I know I have responsibility in my country. Every day you go to bed and think about maybe in this night I will die.

[Esther Perel]

When I met them the first time, she was in France with her 16 year old son where she had found refuge for the few months since the war had started. He was in Ukraine with their 18 year old son. Men that could be drafted were prevented from leaving the country.

[Ileana]

At that time I was in France somewhere looking at the couples. I was feeling lonely. I was feeling not loved. My man of my life is not besides me. I knew that he's going through air alerts five times per day. He has to go to bunker to save himself and our son. And I need just to be loved. I want to be loved. I want to hear accomplished. I want to be the same woman for him.

[Andrew]

My first reaction was what are you talking about? About compliment. We have work.

[Esther Perel]

And I never forgot about them. And I suggested at one point that we reach out and find out what has happened. Where are they now? And I found out that a year ago they had reunited and were now living in Switzerland. And he had made the difficult choice of leaving his country to preserve his family.

[Andrew]

When I come, everything good. We can touch each other every day. Yeah, it was really like dream. But now I don't have job. I don't know local language. And our roles in family change. And I need to start from zero. And for me it was big, big shift.

[Ileana]

It was a difficult decision. It wasn't a choice between good and bad. It was a choice between, let's say, bad and worse. Now that we are together, it is still very hard. We are in completely different stages of life because I already went through the process of adapting to this country and integrating while he's only starting. And it feels like one life has ended and another life has just begun. And we are trying to meet each other somewhere in between.

[Esther Perel]

They were physically together, but they were emotionally more apart than anyone could have anticipated. So I decided to offer another session. Love in War Part 2.

Hello.

[Andrew]

Hello.

You became younger. You look so beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, time doesn't work for you.

[Esther Perel]

The power of one's imagination.

Good to see you. Good to see you both. Wow. So catch me up a little bit. I mean, we met two and a half years ago and we talked about what it was like to have a long distance relationship and to preserve love in war and to find a way to bring aliveness to the digital relationship that you were now having. And you were living very different realities at that time.

And I think you had no idea how long this was going to last. None of us did. But the war is still going.

And is that a good memory, what I'm bringing back?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Ileana]

Yes. Yes. Thank you so much, Esther. It's a very special moment again to see you and have this conversation.

The conversation that we had last time obviously brought a lot of pain and joy at the same time. And these weren't easy years, like two and a half years. We never imagined how long it would take us, how many months or years we have to wait.

And every decision is just hard.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it was long two and a half years.

Before we united. And all this time we tried to figure out what's good for us both.

And for me it was hard decision to leave country. It was like I have two bad decision stay in Ukraine and my relationship with my wife will be struggle. And a lot of couples divorce. A lot of couples break their relationship. And I know we had good fundament, we just had good relationship. But foundation. Yeah, foundation. But it's like bank account. If you not put some in this bank of love you just only spent sometimes will be zero. And it Just scare me. And I understand that good way. For me, it's like, leave Ukraine.

Yeah, it's.

[Esther Perel]

What happened, Eliana.

What was happening on your side?

[Ileana]

On my side, yes. We received the residency and the work permit. So I found a job as an English teacher teaching children, which at first seemed to me like that's definitely not something that I want to do. But it turned out that that was a very healing thing, because I could interact with kids with their.

Souls, and that was healing. And I found apartment and we just stayed here with just me and my son.

He's doing okay. I mean, the younger one, he studies in business school, he speaks French fluently, so things are going well for him. So, I mean, it seemed like our life is going more or less okay. I felt a part of the community, I was well integrated. But at the same time I felt the fatigue and I was exhausted to wait to live in this uncertainty. The only thing I knew is that I want to be faithful to this man.

[Esther Perel]

And now, how many months has it been since you came to Switzerland?

[Andrew]

When I come.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

One years ago. One year ago September, One year ago.

[Esther Perel]

So you make this difficult decision.

Between bad and worse.

And I can only assume that the couple that met in Switzerland finally, not just for a short visit, but with a new plan of life, is not the couple that said goodbye to each other two and a half years before. So tell me about what's happening today between the two of you and who met and changed?

[Andrew]

It's a good question. And.

First months, it was like paradise. Because paradise, paradise. It's like after two and a half years, you reunited. It's like Holy moon with your wife. You can touch her, you can buy flower, you can take cup of coffee. It's like you have endless vacation because it's new place, new country. It's no bombing. And really, it's like I have nightmare. Two and a half year and I wake up.

A new life. And I'm.

Really sorry. Maybe it's like my reaction, but I forget about all these things, what was bad. And I just forget about all this struggle, what people have. I'm really blame little blame myself. Because you live in these circumstances and then change 100% in all things good. You have wife, you have peaceful place. You don't need to go to shelter all the night. Many times I wake up in the middle of the night, oh no, it's not bombing. It's someone close very loud door. No, it's not bombing. It's just some motorcycle because my body reacted.

And we Were happy.

But after a couple months when I encountered with some reality, it's new country, new language.

Very competitive markets. And I couldn't. I still can't find the job here. Unemployment and my wife find apartment, find job, no French language, very quick for communication. But I realized that I'm so slow for change.

And our role changed because whole my life I earned money for my family. I have zero expectation for money from my wife. I say, baby, if you want work, if you don't, don't work. Do what you like. Because I'm warrior. Money is in my shoulder. But now I just put in the position that I have no income.

I still study French, I still find job. And I understand many people in Switzerland can find job and leave this country because it's very competitive market. It's like I come from Ukraine. Like, okay, where is Ukraine? In Switzerland. I was commercial officer leader. Okay, it was in Ukraine. What's your international experience?

For me, it's like I'm really down. And I was disappointed. But for one side, I have a lot of support from my wife. For another side, I understand maybe she had little expectation. When I come, I help her with job, I help her with money. I share your burden. But I couldn't. And now I continue in the process.

[Esther Perel]

And what has that done to the relationship?

[Andrew]

It was pressure. It was pressure. We asked counselor for this problem because this year my dad passed away and I couldn't come back in Ukraine and be in his funeral.

And.

[Esther Perel]

It'S okay, just stay there for a second.

[Andrew]

Yeah, just.

I just.

[Esther Perel]

You can't go back at this moment.

[Andrew]

I couldn't because.

It was a big chance that I couldn't come back again.

And.

I now in position, like, I just feel this pressure. For me, it doesn't mean that my wife gave me this pressure, but sometimes I hear how she tired after work. And we really struggle with communicating. When I come in Ukraine before war, we have regular conversation every week. We have date. We have a lot of time to have conversation. But now.

[Esther Perel]

But in Ukraine, you also had clear roles. You had very clear roles. And you were a warrior who knew what you were fighting for.

And you had status and you had a clear identity. And now your roles are upside down.

[Andrew]

Upside down.

[Esther Perel]

Your roles are in flux. They're changing. Part of you feels like you lost your purpose, you lost your identity, you lost your power to communicate outside in the world. And you are dependent on her. You are dependent on her. You don't like it and she doesn't like it necessarily either. You had A kind of an interdependence before that had unfolded over 20 something years and that functioned very nicely. And now the new dependent structure is very destabilizing, I assume, to you. But I'm looking at Ileana and I'm thinking, it seems to be destabilizing to both of you.

So now you are together, but you are no longer the people that you once knew.

Your relationship is what happens when people reunite after they've been apart for two and a half years, torn by war, living completely different realities. You don't wake up at night, he wakes up a year later wondering, you know, what's the banging. And your nervous systems are completely different. It's not just your heart, your mind, your body, but it's visceral. And that brings up a different sense of loss, particularly for you, Alena, I would imagine.

[Ileana]

Yeah, totally.

It's not that I imagined something a certain way when he would come, because the only thing I dreamt of was just being together, back again, just going to the same bed, kissing good night and, yeah, falling asleep in his arms. That was just the dream, of course. And I felt like the moment he comes, it's not only the romance that will be revived in a way, but also the masculinity that he will bring back. Because I'm tired of carrying feminine, masculine, part of being within me, which mixed feelings of gratitude, on the one hand, for where you are right now, because you are in a beautiful city, one of the most expensive cities in the world. You have a job contract, you earn some money. I mean, enough for.

Providing for life, but not too much to really afford yourself something more. But I was working on that. I still had a plan how and what I can develop here as a business and so on, so forth. And I felt like when Andrew will come, this will finally be the moment when we will be reunited, that will be empowered even more because he's by my side. He will help me with this one, this one, this. And it didn't happen.

I think the hardest moment for me was seeing him, first time in my life since the moment we started dating, just losing his masculinity, his power, his strength.

And on the one hand, I wanted to help, but I wanted to be helped. And the moment when we had our conversation with the counselors, everyone was saying, poor Andrew, we understand you. But I wanted someone to say, poor Alena, because she has a lot to handle too. And this time was not easy for me. And I felt like that I need his. His encouragement, I need his shoulder. But this is not something he can give now. Like, I am a dreamer. I dream big.

I mean, I want to do so much in this life. And I felt that energy flowing. And I felt like we are totally, like, on a different sides of this spectrum. Like from the man who was always saving because he is very wise with money. So I knew him as a man who has this responsibility for me, our family, our children. And it's not about earning a lot. It's just managing well what is given to him. Dreaming, planning for our family. And now he's like, I don't want anything. I'm not dreaming of anything at the moment when I'm dreaming of everything. And we couldn't really match. We couldn't talk. We went one day next to a riverbank, and we went and had a conversation on the. Just sitting on the bench watching the ducks. And it feels like we forgot what it is to talk to each other on a deep level, on the level of feelings. Because I'm afraid to hurt him with all my dreams because it brings a lot of pressure.

And he couldn't share because he said, I'm okay with the minimum now. I don't need anything other than just a piece of bread and bottle of water.

So I. I have to accept what is.

Right now. But it's just hard for me, I believe, just to see him.

Struggling, to.

[Esther Perel]

See him disempowered, to see him without confidence that you've always known. To see him in a refugee status.

To see him in a major transition, and to see him somewhat depressed, dealing with the loss of his country, to see him with the loss of the sense of predictable future.

He has no sense of what the future is.

I mean, I'm watching your head shake when I say things, Andrew, just to know if I'm speaking truth or if I'm off.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's like I go through difficult time for me, because I lost confidence. I only. Why I leave it because my wife believe in me. And every day I say for myself, and because she said, me, you matter. You can do it. Because for me, when I come, when I don't know language, when I had response for my cv, every day, no, thank you. You're not much for our position. I lose confidence. I put in depression and I say, okay, why I'm here. Yeah, I. With my wife. That's why I'm here. But I lost everything.

It's like, okay, now I'm like, baby in new world. And I think, okay, I need support. But I know she needs support, too. It's hard for me. I really have to.

[Esther Perel]

But you are more likely to be able to start with a job that comes from inside the church through the Ukrainian community that doesn't really demand for a cv, but that knows who you are and can translate your experience in Ukraine and knows the qualities and the talents and the skills that you have. The my sense, I don't know if it's a truth, but it's certainly an observation for me that most of the time refugees find their first jobs within their own community.

[Andrew]

Yeah, big hope.

[Esther Perel]

The obvious thing would be to say that he's depressed, but that doesn't begin to capture.

Is an existential condition, not just a psychological condition that he's grappling with. He's a man who lost his identity and became a refugee and it's landing on him very hard and he is losing his not just joie de vivre, but raison d'.

[Ileana]

Etre.

[Esther Perel]

His reason to wake up and I'm thinking about the work of Victor Franken in this moment, who wrote Man's Search for Meaning, where he constantly was saying if people have a reason to live, they can cope with all the circumstances of their life. And I have a sense that he's losing that sense of purpose. So I am beginning to think about how do I bring in an erotic perspective. I don't know yet what I'm going to do, but I know I need to find some way to change the energy.

We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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[Esther Perel]

Oh, it's possible, Harvey.

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[Esther Perel]

No, no. Maybe I should switch to T Mobile.

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[Esther Perel]

This conversation. You agree? It's not like you have a different sense of reality. You both see the same things. You both see the disempowerment, you both see the loss of purpose that you're experiencing. And I think what I hear very loudly from you, Alena, is, and I want you to see that I was waiting for my confident, strong man to arrive so that I could finally put my head on someone's shoulder after carrying everything for these two and a half years. And in fact, that's not what happens.

And a year later, I'm the one trying to lift you every day, which I want to do, but I'm also.

Missing the shoulder that lifted me.

Exactly.

At one moment. He dropped off the zoom call because he had some technical issues and he needed to reboot. So I had a few moments to talk with her alone. And I knew that the intimate physical connection had been a central part of their life, that they had very much valued it and invested in it for decades. So I wanted to find out where was she at with him on that and to get a sense of what was really happening for her that she may not necessarily want to say. So Directly in front of him.

Are you mad at him, Ileana?

[Ileana]

Yeah, I. Yeah, I had a lot of anger that I had.

[Esther Perel]

At it or at him?

[Ileana]

At both.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me more.

[Ileana]

Just seeing what's happening. He was always. I was sharing a little bit about the masculine side because he was wearing suits all the time. He's very attractive and I need a man to be attractive. For me, what he wears is very important, like the smell, the perfume, the look, everything. And he is amazing in that he always looked neat. And he would come just afterward, pick me up, bringing flowers in his beautiful navy blue suit. You know, I just used to letting like that for 25 years. And now he's at home in one.

[Narrator/Host]

Shirt.

[Ileana]

Just because it's comfy. It's a very, very long, not planned vacation, let's say it's on vacation. Obviously he's very busy with things, but it's just being most of the time with his computer. And that's very different from what I wanted, the way I expected. If he's 70 or if we are 80, I'm fine with that. But not now at his 50s, beautiful age. We still have, let's say, hopefully 20 years for a very active lifestyle. But there are just a lot of layers that I have to battle with and there are a lot of losses. I miss him, that Andrew. And so all of this, he misses too. And he does too.

[Esther Perel]

He does too. He misses him too.

And you're afraid that it's not just a transition, but that it really is kind of indicative of some of his limitations.

[Ileana]

Yeah, maybe so. I think I'm just discovering a new, totally new man.

I think that sometimes if a person is in a certain, I don't know, setting, maybe at his job, because people love him, he was managing like thousand people. He was top, top, top, top manager. And when he's uprooted from that setting, what he told me is that maybe it was just by luck that I happened to be in this place and that's the way things unfolded for me, but it's not like who I am.

[Esther Perel]

In his crisis of confidence, he begins to reinterpret his life story. Whatever worked happened to be the result of circumstances and chance. And whatever is not working now is a result of who I really am. This kind of fundamental attribution error. The positive is attributed to chance, the negative is attributed to myself. That is such an expression of the loss of identity and the loss of confidence. And it's a very distorted perception of reality. And it's very, very important for him that he not slide into this.

[Ileana]

Here I am again, like, so what's next? Because I am already a bit tired. I need someone's help. I still believe in him and I see how many things he can do. And it's just helping him in this journey is not easy because I neglect mine as a woman and my desires.

[Esther Perel]

What has happened to the intimacy between the two of you as a result of this?

[Ileana]

I think it's.

[Esther Perel]

Like when he hugs you. Or we can start with touch. Doesn't have to go straight to sex, but when he holds you, does it still have the effect that you.

[Ileana]

I don't think so, to be honest. I want to revive it back. I just don't know. Like back in Ukraine before the war, we invested in our relationship one way or other. We would rent hotels like every two months, even if it's just next street, just to change places. We would leave the kids with our mother. We would just change something constantly just to bring the freshness in our relationships. And we felt like we are building very romantic relationships. But now, just because you cannot afford.

This and that, maybe there are new ways. We have to be creative with what we can do. I don't know. I just have to see him differently. I don't know. I have to re. See him just. I need that man in suit. I need him, his power. And I don't know how I can help him considering the situation that we are in right now.

[Esther Perel]

Andrew, are you around?

[Andrew]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, close the door. It's fine. I would like you, Ileana, just go, take two minutes. This may sound like a totally crazy idea, but go put your hair up and make it nice the way you like. And I would like you, Andrew, to just take a few minutes and go and get changed and come back and in the self that you often have known.

[Ileana]

Ah, Esther, go.

[Esther Perel]

I'll stay and I'll wait. Go.

[Ileana]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

There's something very powerful in what she describes about. I used to see him a certain way. She had a perception of him that was very eroticizing and she has lost it. And I can sense that she's afraid that she won't recover it. So I thought, okay, new eyes. New eyes to the self and new eyes to the other. And here we are doing a zoom session which is often discussed, you know, what are the limitations? What do you lose from not seeing people in person to. But this is one of those moments when I thought, wow, they're in their home, their closet is only a few meters away. Let them go and find something in the closet and I just sat at the laptop and waited for them to reappear. I had no idea what they were going to do.

So I waited probably four minutes. And then she appears. Hair made up, jewelry, makeup, dress, ready to go out for the night. And he shows up in that suit.

[Andrew]

It's only one suit. What I have.

[Esther Perel]

White shirt, dapper. Wow. And it wasn't just I said wow. They looked at each other and I had that sense that it had been a long time time since they had seen each other. So they arrived all decked up and it was like a whole new session was starting.

We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

Guys. Thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Narrator/Host]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton. Drewski, lift with your legs, man. Santa.

[Ileana]

Santa.

[Esther Perel]

Santo. Did you get my letter?

[Narrator/Host]

He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not. Of course he did. Right, Santa. You know my elf Drew here. He handles the nice list. And elf. I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies.

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Right, Mrs. Claus?

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[Andrew]

Nice.

[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

All right, here we go.

Hello.

[Andrew]

Hello.

[Esther Perel]

We're going to try to change energy for a bit, right? Because you are together physically together, but for the first time, you are more apart emotionally than you've been in your whole long relationship. And everybody agrees that this is a rough transition for you, Andrew, that you have a real crisis of confidence.

And you're beginning to doubt yourself to the point where you even rewrite the story from back in Ukraine and you start to have thoughts of imposter syndrome. What I had was luck, and what I don't have is me.

Yeah, that's a real reinterpretation of one's identity. And it's very corrosive. It's completely understandable. And at the same time, it's inaccurate. It's a distortion. And the more you are in this stuck place that is making you more and more depressed. And the more the distortion grows and the more the distortion grows and the more the gap between the two of you will grow, too.

And this is not your first crisis.

I mean, I don't know much about.

[Andrew]

But it's a bigger but I can't.

[Esther Perel]

Imagine that this is the first time you're dealing with.

I mean, no, you haven't dealt with being uprooted. You haven't dealt with suddenly having to support the whole family. But interestingly, both of you share a narrow, if I may say so, image of masculinity.

If I don't work, I have no purpose. If I don't make decisions, if I don't manage a thousand people, I have no idea what my value is. And there I would like for us to expand a tiny bit just so that you can get through this phase.

And maybe you have to put the suit on more often and not wait till you have the right opportunity, but actually create these opportunities just for the sake of it.

It's a tough thing to do because the daily life can so easily.

Rid you of your imagination.

And at the same time, it's your imagination that is the ultimate freedom. And maybe on occasion you can put your suit on and go do a walk at a river. It doesn't cost a penny. And maybe you find another couple that's very cool. And you exchange apartments for a night. That's a hotel too.

[Ileana]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it's. How do we recapture that which hopefully migration, being a refugee, having the war in your nervous system and all of that, that it becomes a kind of an antidote to it. It's the same theme as what we discussed last time. It's how you cultivate the aliveness in the face of what you feel is so much loss. This won't solve the problems, but this may help you manage the problems better.

[Ileana]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because what you can't really sink into is a daily conversation about I'm not the man I used to be. To which you say, no, you're not the man you used to be.

We agree that the man that we all expected hasn't shown up.

You won't survive this.

At some point you'll start fighting.

And this is your true test.

[Andrew]

Exactly, sir.

[Esther Perel]

Exactly what exactly?

[Andrew]

Just every night when we lay in one bed cover, one blanket, my wife said me, I dreamed about this.

And this little peace come in our hearts and we just understand how long way we went through.

Yeah. But when. When we start our stuff doing. Yes. Sometimes we just lost this connection and what we have, our relationship is biggest body have.

[Esther Perel]

So when you fall in the trap, I will just ask you to go put on your suit.

You know, it's. I don't want to be that version of myself. There are different versions of you, different parts in you.

[Ileana]

Yeah.

I just love how you've.

Frame it, Esther, because like it's a new dance. It's dancing a new life. Let's say it's not the way we used to, not the same.

[Esther Perel]

Do you get scared when you see him fragile?

Do you feel like if he gets weak that fragility or vulnerability means weakness and weak means that you can't lean on him?

[Ileana]

I think when it's just an expression of being fragile, it's fine. But I'm afraid that it can take too long and he can get stuck somewhere and I don't think it's a good. Because I had times in my life when I was stuck and it brought me to a bad place.

[Andrew]

I think like Alena has some fears and maybe what I show now is reflect some fears in your heart.

Maybe that, that man, what was before, never refresh again. But for me.

When I think that I'm not accepting in this condition, and I have some conclusion, you need to change. You need to be powerful. You need to come back and do something, take responsibility for family. It's not help me move on. It gives me, like, pressure.

[Esther Perel]

Of course it gives you pressure, but it will give you pressure. As long as you think that what she says is about you.

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

If you begin to think what she says is actually because it scares her, then you can tell her, I'm going through a very rough time. I'll get there.

She's afraid you may not get out of it.

But that's because she sees herself and the times when she thought, I won't get out of it.

So I'm going to go back to her and get a bit of info about that, because I think this is a major piece here. How do we react when we see the fragility, the vulnerability of the other.

And what does it evoke in us.

About our own fragility and our own fears?

[Ileana]

Yeah, I think I'm just afraid. I have feared to.

Just be by myself in my own dreamy world. I want to use each day and do something. I love to act. And the time when I had depression in my life, it was when I lost my mom, and then I had a burnout, a severe burnout. And I was in a very, very bad and very difficult place myself, mentally, emotionally.

It took, I think, about five years for me to get out of that very challenging place.

Because the moment when I felt powerless, not able to do anything, I was just laying in bed and felt like I can't do anything in this world.

I was in such a bad place, just inside myself. It was a prison, mental prison, that brought me to a downward spiral. And Andrew was there for me.

[Esther Perel]

You're afraid he would go to bed and not come out, or you're afraid that you don't have someone to fall on if you collapse. Can go in both directions.

[Ileana]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

His strength, as you describe, became extremely important to you. Yeah, In a way that made me think there is a fear behind it. It's not just. It's important because you like it. There's a need behind it. You need him to be a certain way.

And you get scared when he isn't.

More than angry. You get scared or you get angry because you get scared.

[Ileana]

Yeah, maybe so. I do understand that we are not always strong and we are not always.

[Esther Perel]

In our power, but it's been a year, so you think how long?

[Narrator/Host]

It's just.

[Ileana]

Yeah, yeah. It's just this, maybe. And I think the most discouraging for me was just the fear of losing his even desire to want something from this life. Just that scares me. Not the outcome, but just losing dreams. I mean, that might be a bit of a depressive mode as well, but I'm proud the way Andrew deals with all of that. I mean, I. I love the sparkling in him because he's very passionate to life. He loves life, he breathes life. It's just the way he was. But now he's like a bit.

[Andrew]

Reload, reloading, reloading.

[Ileana]

And you said that, like, how long? Like, how much time? I need time. But we can be like that for five years. You're learning French for five years.

[Esther Perel]

No, that's because you are stuck on how long it took you.

Yes, that's partly because you think, wow, it took me five years. And is that what is going to happen to him? We have no idea what will happen to him. But I understand your fear. You know, I listen to both of you and I'm very humble by the circumstances of your life.

But I also. I think that at first it seemed a little bit like all things were great before and this is the first challenging moment. But then when you talk about five years and in bed and unable to get up, when I said, you've had other crises, you've had other adversity.

And then you said, yeah, but not as big as this, I'm not so sure.

But your hindsight, you're looking back and you say, we did it. And it is a real challenge when you are in circumstances that demand strength, but you experience them with deep vulnerability and fear, which you know intellectually is normal and which at the same time frightens you.

It's like the very feeling that are part of this become also scary if they don't get expressed. However.

Your bodies will do it for them.

[Ileana]

No, please.

[Esther Perel]

So you have to have room for that.

They'll come, they'll pass. They'll make room for a different feeling to follow.

[Ileana]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So I can't change the circumstances at.

[Andrew]

All.

[Esther Perel]

But I can help you maintain little islands of freedom, of playfulness, of imagination, of intimacy.

Of deep connection, of sensuality, of aliveness in the midst of it.

People live in the most dire of circumstances and love in the most dire of circumstances.

[Ileana]

This is beautiful. You just really brought us to the place where, I mean, we know how to do it different ways. I mean, you reminded us that we know how to date when we have nothing, how to date when we don't have enough, or how to build love in different circumstances. Because it's not about the circumstance, it's about the.

Attitude, the feeling, the respect, love and respect in relationships. And I feel like I'm regaining this.

Not the power, but the.

Sparkle of.

Never stop to find ways to play with life. Because that I know is healing itself too.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you so much.

[Ileana]

Thank you so much. Thank you, sir.

[Esther Perel]

We'll be in touch.

Much of the focus on working with people who are experiencing traumatic events is often looking at presence, joy, pleasure, curiosity, exploration, those erotic ingredients as the reward that comes out after getting through those hardships.

What I think they fully understood was that pleasure is actually part of the medicine.

[Narrator/Host]

In the session that you just heard, there is a very obvious visual moment. Esther sends the couple away, tells them they have four minutes to to come back in their going out clothes like they're going on a date. And she does this to shift the feeling or to see if she can kind of shift the mood. And it's so stunning to see the before and the after. So with permission from the couple, which is something we've never done before and may never do again, but with their permission, we edited a small section of the podcast where you can actually see that moment. You can see them go away and come back. So if that is of interest to you, go to Esther's substack, which you can just search for Esther Perel on substack or go to estherperrell.substack.com and there will be a bonus later on this week that includes the video of Esther in action.

Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julianat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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