Love the Child, Not the Father

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Love the Child, Not the Father" – Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode Information

• Title: Love the Child, Not the Father
• Host/Author: Esther Perel Global Media
• Release Date: October 14, 2024

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Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, viewers are invited into a counseling session between a couple grappling with the complexities of their relationship strained by unexpected pregnancies and the isolating effects of the COVID-19 lockdown. The episode delves deep into themes of communication breakdown, emotional isolation, and the struggle to maintain connection amidst personal and shared crises.

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Background and Context

The couple's relationship began under unconventional circumstances right before the pandemic. Shortly after they started dating, an unexpected pregnancy occurred on the first day of lockdown, forcing them into a whirlwind of decisions without the usual support systems.

• Partner 1: "We made the decision not to continue with that and then fast forward maybe a year and a half and we had another pregnancy and we did want that." ([01:53])

• Partner 2: "I found out I was pregnant the first day of lockdown." ([01:53])

These compressed timelines and heightened stressors set the stage for their evolving relationship dynamics.

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Impact of COVID-19 Lockdown

The lockdown functioned like an intense speed-dating experience, thrusting the couple into close quarters without the opportunity to fully understand each other's lives outside the relationship. This lack of depth contributed to misunderstandings and emotional distance.

• Partner 2: "We hadn't met all other's friends or, like, known each other and how we are in sort of a normal life before the pandemic." ([03:58])

The isolation compounded personal struggles, particularly when Partner 2 faced the emotional turmoil of an unplanned pregnancy and subsequent termination.

• Partner 2: "I had to have a procedure done in person. And, you know, of course, that was, like, entirely alone." ([04:15])

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Communication Breakdown and Emotional Isolation

As time progressed, the couple found themselves increasingly at odds, struggling to communicate effectively. Partner 2 felt overwhelmed by Partner 1's anxiety and the subsequent emotional "chaos."

• Partner 2: "I think I feel very attuned to what others are feeling and it's hard for it to not supersede what I'm feeling." ([06:55])

This emotional attunement often left Partner 2 neglecting their own feelings, leading to internal resentment and a sense of being unnoticed within the relationship.

• Partner 2: "I think I feel very unknown in this relationship and at home." ([08:46])

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Therapeutic Intervention and Insights

Esther Perel, acting as the therapist, skillfully navigates the session by identifying underlying patterns and emotional blocks. She introduces metaphors to help the couple reframe their interactions, encouraging them to view their conflicts as performances that can be edited rather than insurmountable personal attacks.

• Therapist: "This is not about conflict resolution. This is also about keeping perspective." ([30:10])

She emphasizes the importance of establishing boundaries and maintaining individual emotional space to prevent the relationship from spiraling into perpetual conflict.

• Therapist: "Fusion is when I need him to change in order for me to not have to feel what I feel." ([53:16])

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Strategies for Reconnection and Boundary Setting

Throughout the session, Perel introduces practical tools to help both partners disengage emotionally from each other's negative patterns without severing their connection entirely. This involves creating a mental space where each individual can respond rather than react impulsively.

• Therapist: "Introduce lightness is introducing using the ability to have a space between action and reaction to decide how do I want to interpret this?" ([55:55])

Partner 2 resonates with the idea of becoming a "theater spectator," observing the other's emotional outbursts without internalizing them.

• Partner 2: "It is like a monologue. It is." ([34:11])

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Challenges in Implementing Change

Despite the strategies discussed, both partners acknowledge the difficulty in moving away from entrenched patterns. The metaphor of rewriting a play underscores the effort required to change deeply ingrained behaviors and perceptions.

• Partner 1: "The pattern was really beginning to etch itself into the floor, our dynamic. And I was playing a role." ([45:23])

• Partner 2: "It's about me." ([52:04])

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Conclusion and Takeaways

"Love the Child, Not the Father" offers a poignant exploration of how external pressures like a pandemic and internal conflicts can strain a relationship to its breaking point. Esther Perel adeptly highlights the necessity of self-awareness, boundary setting, and the willingness to reframe interactions to foster a healthier dynamic. The episode serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of maintaining individuality and emotional space within intimate relationships.

Notable Quotes

• Partner 1: "It's absurd that you're complaining about the Supreme Court and I'm feeling burdened by it." ([25:09])

• Partner 2: "I have relationships in which people share deep, intense emotions, and I don't have that issue." ([50:21])

• Therapist: "This is bad theater." ([37:46])

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Key Themes

1. Impact of External Stressors: The COVID-19 lockdown amplified existing relationship tensions, highlighting the importance of support systems.
2. Emotional Isolation: The struggle to balance attunement to a partner's feelings with self-awareness to prevent neglect of personal emotions.
3. Communication Patterns: The shift from mutual support to blame and resentment, emphasizing the need for healthy dialogue.
4. Boundary Setting: Establishing emotional boundaries to maintain individual well-being without completely disconnecting.
5. Reframing Relationships: Using metaphors and practical strategies to view conflicts as editable rather than fixed.

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This episode of Where Should We Begin? serves as a compelling case study on navigating relationship turbulence in the face of unexpected life events and societal disruptions. Esther Perel's insightful guidance provides listeners with valuable tools to address similar challenges in their own lives.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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[Therapist]

COVID.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

Lockdown functioned like an unusual speed dating and created ad hoc relationships where people that barely knew each other were often thrown together overnight, moving in with each.

[Partner 1]

Other, started dating and at least not far before COVID hit.

[Partner 2]

We had an unexpected pregnancy, the very beginning of our relationship and like I found out I was pregnant the first day of lockdown.

[Partner 1]

We made the decision not to continue with that and then fast forward maybe a year and a half and we had another pregnancy and we did want that.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

This is how these two people met. They got pregnant on the first day of lockdown, but they moved in together just a few weeks before and they began dating just shortly before that. So all of this was compressed with the big things at the beginning and then the small steps of dating of getting to know someone. Following and this instant face to face going deep worked quite well until the door opened and people began to ask the question, do I even like this person? And in this case she likes the baby, but she doesn't like the man.

[Partner 2]

I found within myself that I was not happy in this relationship and ended the relationship. But we're still cohabitating. We had this beautiful baby together. I have no idea like how we moved forward.

[Partner 1]

Somewhere in there things began to go off the rails. It feels like over Time we increasingly don't like each other. How do we shift to something that can be free of acrimony and friction? How do we do it without our white knuckles clenched?

[Partner 2]

So we were just seeing each other a lot, even in, like, the month before the lockdown. And then when I think about our time together in the lockdown, there was something that was intimate, but without knowing this whole other side of each other that existed.

[Therapist]

Meaning that you never saw each other in your respective lives?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, we hadn't met all other's friends or, like, known each other and how we are in sort of a normal life before the pandemic. And, you know, and I think the, you know, unexpected pregnancy was really challenging. It was in lockdown, and so I didn't feel like I had the access to the cares that I would normally have found for myself. And I had to, you know, I had the pill, you know, so it was very painful, and it didn't work. And then I needed to go have a procedure done in person. And, you know, of course, that was, like, entirely alone. Yeah. I think emotionally it was hard to work through very.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

Were you alone?

[Therapist]

Because ecologically, societally isolated and had no supports, or were you also alone vis a vis him?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I think that there was definitely, like, I want to be there for you, and I want to help. And also just, like, whatever you want to do, I think that that is maybe, like, what you, as a male, like, are told that's what you're supposed to do. And I think it felt, you know, there was a sweetness to just wanting to just be there and help.

[Therapist]

But I felt.

[Partner 1]

But I was always putting it in your court, and therefore you were. It was like, whatever.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, it was like. I think I did feel like, alone in making the decision and figuring out, you know, the logistics of it. And, you know, it's like you take the pills and then you wait because it takes a while. And I think you were very anxious. And I remember being like, well, go take a walk. And then I got mad because you took a really long walk and you weren't back, and I was experiencing it. And I think I felt like, I'm orchestrating this. I'm figuring this out.

[Therapist]

May I ask you something? Yeah, because you're describing it around this very challenging experience of making a decision to terminate, experiencing that on the one hand, it's your decision, but then also that you are alone with the decision, wanting him to be present, but when he has any feelings about it, you basically tell him as if he can't handle It. So go take a walk. Rather than just. It's anxiety producing, isn't it? You wait probably too. Why does he take a walk? You know? So there is this notion, and I'm sensing it. I may be completely off. You hate being alone, but you create situations that make you more alone. Is that something that I'm sensing accurately, or am I?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I think that's true. I think I feel very attuned to what others are feeling and it's hard for it to not supersede what I'm feeling. And he has a lot of anxiety, and I find it overwhelming. It feels like chaos, you know, And I see it as like, oh, I have to manage this, so let me just eliminate this chaos.

[Therapist]

In this pattern that you describe, I'm attuned to other people's feelings. They supersede mine. But then I feel like I have to manage theirs so that I can finally maybe at some point attend to mine. And that in itself feels overwhelming to me. And then I start to accrue resentment because I feel like I'm always last and I never even get my chance. Is he number one in your life that you do this with or this is an old school.

[Partner 2]

I think I did it in my family, too. I think I have three siblings. And your number number two. I. Yeah, I think I just remember being a little bit even removed from myself and just like, observing around me what was happening and just kind of understanding that, like, oh, I just need to, like, not add to this chaos.

[Therapist]

But nobody notices me, Right.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. And it's.

[Therapist]

That's the old voice, right?

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

No, here I am attuned to everybody and nobody notices me. That's the pain underneath the resentment.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

That hurts.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel very unknown in this relationship and at home.

[Therapist]

And I just created family. And it's not uncommon that when we create family, our family history reappears full force, too.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

It's like a memory bank that opens up.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Well, I guess it just slowly started to not be okay. But I think initially, you know, on our first date, he just asked a lot of very.

[Therapist]

Like, he wanted to get to know you.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And he asked very curious questions.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. And I, you know, I remember at the end of the date, I felt like, oh, wow, I just talk so much. And that felt kind of unusual and nice. Yeah. And then slowly it just started to feel like he was just this more dominant presence in terms of emoting what felt like all over. And it felt like a lot of negative emotions. And when you're pregnant. It's like everything is changing, and there wasn't a change on his side. I started to think, I'm gonna have to carry, like, so much of this. And I think I was like, I can do it. I can do it. And then just the resentment just started to really build. You're sort of in this position where everyone's so excited. And I was excited, but I wasn't feeling supported and I wasn't feeling taken care of.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

The first thought I have is what happened on their first date and how. How taken she was by his curiosity, his attention to her, and how it was opening up for her. A deep yearning of someone really wanting to get to know her. And when he then starts to have his own reactions and she starts to feel that he's not nearly present enough, he becomes the representation of a lot of the deprivations that she has experienced throughout her life. And then add to that COVID lockdown. I mean, I wrote a book called Mating in Captivity. This was Mating in Captivity, the quarantine edition. If there ever was a time when we turned to one person to give us what once an entire village is meant to provide, this was it. It's not that she could temper his absence with the presence of others and the supports of others, that she could turn to other people. It's that everything was turned toward him that compounded things and made the crisis come up much sooner and much more steep. And so as she was talking about how he started out as a beautiful listener and he was so curious about her, in a way, we were doing the exact same thing in this beginning of the session. I was taking my time to get to know her, to allow her to come forward. And I was watching him re enter his role as a curious person that he is, or once was that I don't know yet.

[Therapist]

You started out as a beautiful listener who asked questions, who made her feel like, wow, this is kind of what I've always dreamed about. You started out in a very privileged position. Privileged as in unusual for her. Special. And then how did you get demoted?

[Partner 1]

I think some of it goes to what she just was talking about in terms of change throughout the pregnancy. Change as we emerge from the pandemic. But one thing that she said that was true and has been true is that I haven't changed. There hasn't been much of a finger lifted to address the anxiety, to address the dumping on. And so there's an element of this whole thing that, like, you know, where I feel at fault, I feel responsible. I feel that this could have been repaired or healed or the ship could have righted. And so that's part of it. There's a recognition there. And then with our son.

[Therapist]

Take a moment, just stay with this for a bit. Is this something you've said before out loud?

[Partner 1]

I think that she knows because she's watched me not.

[Therapist]

That's not the same she knows. But you're acknowledging what she sees is a different step. Right. It starts with acknowledgment and then accountability and then reckoning. Otherwise, you don't have a shared base from which to start.

[Partner 1]

Right. I recognize something's off, and then it could be amended and potentially improved upon by doing something. And that something is not done. I mean, I know that this is a piece of this. And you said it, too. It's like, if I don't do anything, I don't initiate anything or make any kind of change, then it's all left on you. And that's especially the case with him. Now. Once we moved into this phase where it was like the white flag was flown and we're not together, then it shifted into something else, like an entrenched war of attrition or something. It feels like resentment bubbling and blowing up and then resentment bubbling and blowing up and then, I mean, part of it because it was recent, part of it is because it was last night, but there's a crystallization. There was an unfortunate nail on the head that you identified yesterday when I came home and I was overwhelmed and stressed, and it was thing after thing, and then. And I got home in time to join you guys for the bedtime routine, which was all I wanted, but I came in there with this energy that was not resolved energy. It was built up. And you said some things that were hurtful at the time, something to the effect of, like, you're complaining, you're grousing, your bitching is like the soundtrack to so much of my life that I just want to be away from or something like that. And that hurt. And immediately where I went was like, I want to shoot some arrows that are just as sharp back at you. And I recognize that there was little to argue with there. Like, who would want that? Whatever it is that has me stuck, I feel like instead of really actually responding to it in an effort to get unstuck, it's like I will just divert that energy or those feelings into, like, something that I can identify that's negative, like how shitty the Q train is at rush hour or how corrupt these Supreme Court justices are. And none of that Shit, none of that stuff has anything to do with what I'm feeling. It's a lot of complaining.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, it's like this externalization of what you're feeling. And so, like, it doesn't even feel like I need to be there. Like, it feels like you're monologuing about the world. And like, in my head, I somehow like, thought it was on me to like, divert you into, like, what if we just focus on something else? Or what if you did breathing exercises or yoga or therapy? Like, I just think I spend so much time just trying to help you, and then I think, you know, since we've broken up, it's like, I just, I don't have to. That's not on me anymore. And I have like a baby to take care of, and that is an appropriate person for me to take care of in that way. And you are not. I mean, what I said was honest. Like, you're just going off. You're going off and like, I'm there trying to like, wrangle our son into his pajamas and get them to drink some milk and read a book. And it's like, there's nothing about what you're saying that is connective to me. And it's also just like you blame me for things. Like, you start talking about the environmental things in your life that are so hard, which is like the city that we live in, which is the city that you hate. And I'm making you stay here and it's my fault. And you can't believe anyone would want to live here. And it's so. It's angry. There's anger directed at me. It's passive. But it's another thing that you avoid your own feelings by blaming it on everything else.

[Therapist]

You know, I'm listening to both of you and there is blame. You switch from responsibility to blame very quick. And the blame can be externalized, but you also blame yourself. And then you blame yourself in such a way that it completely immobilizes you because where to begin? Who would want to be with me? This is fucked up. And so one minute you are fucked up. You, the world, whoever is outside there, and one minute I'm fucked up, and you go from contempt to self pity.

[Partner 1]

It's a lot of both of those.

[Therapist]

At this moment, you have both decided that you're going to transition into co parenting or you're pulling that ship.

[Partner 2]

I mean, I've heard different things from.

[Partner 1]

You, but, well, you started that ship. You started pulling that ship in that direction. And for a while, I Wasn't on board, I wasn't on that page. I wasn't on that team. I've gotten there. I don't know if we're in the exact same spot, but I think part of why I've gotten there is because it's become so frequently contentious that it doesn't seem tenable. And so it's almost like I got pulled along with that ship or something. I didn't passively say.

[Therapist]

But neither did you say, I know what I need to do. It's not like she hasn't been clear. It's not even like I disagree with what she's saying. I'm going to fight for this and I'm going to do what it takes. And the more you go passive and the more she resents the fact that she has to make all the decisions, but she continues making them, and the more you'll blame yourself saying, that's really not what I wanted. So the more passive you go and the more contentious she will be. And the more contentious she will be and the more passive you will become. And by the way, that doesn't change once you just become co parents. I mean, at this moment, you want a relationship by design. You want to create a particular kind of arrangement. That's a designer model. And so there is sex, there is money, there is food, there is people, there is professions, there is time, there is your child. Those are dimensions of a relationship. They all will continue, some of them. Even if it's not sex with each other, it will be other partners. So all of this is part of the conversation. Some of it is very concrete. It's not just psychological. Some of it. We are talking psychologically, we're looking at some patterns. But what happens is that the conversation about the practicality gets mired with the conversation about the psychology. And then there is no conversation.

[Partner 1]

Right, right.

[Partner 2]

Like, I think I understand, like we had a fight about laundry where.

[Therapist]

Oh, I forgot the laundry. I forgot the. And the gardening maybe as well. The garbage. Yeah. And the dishwasher. There's a few more.

[Partner 2]

And you know, for a long time I was doing all the laundry and he was doing his laundry. And then I said, you have to do the baby's laundry. And then we just recently did like an overhaul of clothes to give away and season change and. And there was just a pile of clothes that were going to laundry. And then it's growing and he's getting stressed and he's like, that's way too much laundry. I can't. And so it's like this choice that I then have to, like, either just keep the pressure on and say, well, this is what needs to be done. To say, like, I'll just do it.

[Therapist]

How about I trust you will figure this out.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Therapist]

I mean, you are both, as far as I can see, adults.

[Partner 2]

I mean, that does that. It plays into it. There is a lot of ways in.

[Therapist]

Which it's like you're not talking to an adult.

[Partner 2]

I feel like the adult. Like, I feel like I'm the adult.

[Therapist]

May I ask you what you do?

[Partner 1]

Yeah, I work at a hospital. I'm a social worker there.

[Therapist]

You're an adult.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

When he is stressed or anxious or rigid or whatever, you instantly play into it. I'm sure you'll figure it out. Is what one says to an adult.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I do that sometimes and more.

[Therapist]

So now, but without resentment.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I think I just got tired of being angry all the time. And so, you know.

[Therapist]

But the anger is partly because a part of you thinks, do I persist or do I relinquish and take more on me? So you're also in an either or.

[Partner 2]

But also just the fact of being someone to complain. You know, it's like you didn't say it was going to be this much laundry. It's like, I am not the CEO.

[Therapist]

I love to throw surprises.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

You understand you're trapped in the. You didn't say. No, I didn't know. Just, you know, I wanted to make sure that you get some unpredictability in your life. It's good for the rigidity.

[Partner 2]

Right, Right. It's like there's an absurdity to complaining about it, so why not respond with that?

[Therapist]

Exactly. Yeah, we got it. Because then you don't step in.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I need to protect my energy in that way, too. Like, it's exhausting.

[Therapist]

Or you may just enjoy absurd theater. It's like, you take it literal. He says, you didn't tell me, and now it becomes a conversation about, you didn't tell me and should you tell me and how would you do. No, and you didn't measure it and you didn't have a weight and play with it almost in a way that says, yeah, I know, I get it. But you know what? I wanted to make sure that you remember that life is filled with unknown. Give him some existential, you know.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. And it doesn't become like, everything just is everything, you know? And so it's like, oh, you're cheap because you're not willing to spend more money at the laundromat and you're putting it on me because you're just become this sort of passive person in our relationship. And also, oh, you're seeing this as outside of your purview because it's not your clothes, even though it's your son's clothes. Even these mundane tasks become this whole narrative of what feels like what went wrong, things that I just absorbed for so long and then got so mad.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

This is not about the laundry or any of the items. This is about can I rely on you? Can I trust you? Who's taking care of me if you do this laundry? It's not that you wash the baby's clothes. It's that I feel that I have a partner and I'm not alone. This is not an uncommon story in relationships in which one person is in the role of the adult, wants the other person person to be more of an adult, but actually treats them in a more infantilized way, which makes the other person then respond exactly in kind and it becomes a confirmation bias. In straight couples, it plays itself out around gender. But in all couples, it's often also an issue of roles. The one who watches what needs to be done and then assigns and does, and the one who's waiting to be told what to do and then has their complaints about the assignment. And I think the most important piece is not to get sidetracked by the item at hand, but really by the dynamic, the power issues, the gender issues, the trust issues. It's all those things that are being discussed disguised in the laundry pile. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

[Esther Perel]

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[Therapist]

When he complains about the size of the load, just tell him that you carefully chose a few more pounds.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

If the two of you find yourself with that little bit of a smile, you will change your life.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

This is not about conflict resolution. This is also about keeping perspective. You have a little one. You need both of you to reconnect with the lightness of being because you could be arguing about a lot of stupid stuff that you take as something extremely important. And so from 1 to 10, how important is this one? This is very basic things, but they are actually extremely powerful. You need to first of all, remove the crust that's sticking.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, the crust, that's an image that feels like it lands. I mean, I think that's what this is like. The crust builds. It just builds.

[Therapist]

It sticks.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

The main thing is it sticks. And that's the rigidity. The patterns become narrower, faster and more rigid. What used to take 10 minutes to build can take 10 seconds. You do your thing, she does her thing. You do, you think done. So if you had a pool of. Benevolence. That's the word. I keep thinking there needs to be some benevolence. And this I say more to you.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, yeah, I hear it.

[Therapist]

You go into that state of what's wrong? And then. And I should do. And I don't know why I don't.

[Partner 1]

And, well, and that it's pretty easy to say, okay, yeah, it's partially me, but it's also partially you.

[Therapist]

It's 100% each of you. It doesn't matter.

[Partner 1]

Right, right, right.

[Therapist]

Your blame system is going to undermine you. It's the most miserable way to think about relationships.

[Partner 1]

Well, the rigidity is the biggest part of the whole Thing. I think that if you talk to people that knew me in previous little sections of my life, Rigidity is not a word that.

[Therapist]

What about pettiness?

[Partner 1]

Pettiness wasn't. I think it all.

[Therapist]

It all came together. So how shall we name that part of you that goes rigid and petty?

[Partner 1]

Well, there's a narrowness. There's an assumption that the world should be one way. And if it in any way deviates from that, then fuck somebody. Me or somebody.

[Therapist]

I'm looking for a name, as in a metaphor. I know we've described it, but, you know, the important piece here is this is a part of you. This isn't all of you. It wasn't always you. So at this moment, instead of having a conversation with her, you need to have a conversation with it. And just on occasion, say, today, I don't really want to have you there. I mean, I'm going to invite somebody else for dinner because you're about to ruin my life, my relationship, my fatherhood.

[Partner 1]

The recognition of the absurdity of all of this. Just a couple of days ago, I was riding my bike and I was headed to a friend's house, and I got caught in a downpour and I was pissed. I was muttering and I was upset. And then there was just, like, a light switch. It was like, this is. I'm not changing any of this. And for some reason, that light switch is so much harder to access, so much less frequently accessed these days. But it was this moment. It was this glimpse of, like, that felt metaphorical, like, who am I pissed at? The sky? There was nothing I could do to change it. And I feel like that is what so often at play with this stuff. The rigidity and seeing the laundry load get higher and higher and want to undo that somehow and bring it back to a place that is understandable and recognizable and familiar and manageable.

[Therapist]

When he goes into that performance, I would love you to become a theater spectator.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And tell him this is a six.

[Partner 2]

It is like a monologue. It is.

[Therapist]

I got it.

[Partner 2]

It is like, I think you should.

[Therapist]

Edit a few pieces because it's just a six.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. He does have a theater background. He is a trained actor.

[Therapist]

Wonderful. Ask him if he could help you. Serve you something that you enjoy. Could be tea, water, or whatever drink you want. I'd like to watch. Could you start from the beginning and basically become a spectator of this performance? Because it's a performance.

[Partner 2]

It is. Yeah.

[Therapist]

Okay. And grade it or review it. That's probably a better word. But you see where I'm trying to take you for a moment. And this you can do too. Oh, you know, bad script. Bad script.

[Partner 2]

Needs a rewrite.

[Therapist]

Needs a rewrite. So instead of being ex partners, I would like you to become joint playwrights.

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I chose the word performance, not as a dismissal. I could have used the word enactment. I didn't know yet that he was an actor at the theater. But if it's a performance, it's less an intrinsic part of you and it's more a scene that you get into a part of you that takes over. So what I'm looking at with them is how much flexibility is there. A real diagnostic is when I come up with something that is light, but that brings perspective, humor. And if the people join me, if they instantly laugh at it, it means that they too have some distance to not take all of this so seriously. So can I help them not fall in the traps, avoid these pitfalls, even if they choose to only be co parents? And so I decided to locate myself there.

[Partner 2]

I think it's helpful because I think it prevents me from taking it on.

[Partner 1]

Well, you get sucked into it too. The seriousness, the weighty, leady.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, it's a real downer.

[Partner 1]

It's the release of the thoughts.

[Partner 2]

It's the release of the thoughts, but it's not even really connected to what you're feeling. I don't think you feel better after doing it.

[Therapist]

After the performance, he actually used a very interesting word. HE MUTTERS on the bike, he was muttering, soak, speak up. Put him in front of the mirror and just say, take a look. I think you may want to put a little bit more accent there and then go do your thing. But I am trying to unstick you because that's part of the crust. This is a play.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

A relationship is a story. You're right. It needs edits. You've gone down a path where the story is just an absolute downer.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And it's becoming real. It starts to feel like it's not a story. But that's the truth.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like this, like, heteronormative nightmare.

[Therapist]

That's an old story.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It feels so tired.

[Therapist]

And so what are the main lines of that heteronormative nightmare in your script?

[Partner 2]

Just a childlike man and like a.

[Therapist]

I already have a kid. I don't need another one.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. And you know this sort of humorless woman who's like, not even given a full character.

[Therapist]

She's just a resentful bitch.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Is that the words?

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

I've been there. It's okay. It's not like.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

That's my part in that play. You.

[Partner 2]

Right. And I, like, I really resent feeling like that.

[Therapist]

Yes.

[Partner 2]

Because I don't think that I.

[Therapist]

What happened to me.

[Partner 2]

Right.

[Therapist]

Not who I am.

[Partner 2]

Right. How did I end up this person?

[Therapist]

And yes. To not focus only on the big decision. How do we move out?

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Because if you stay in what you have called your heteronormative nightmare, then it doesn't matter under what roof he sleeps.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Or you sleep. Yeah.

[Partner 2]

We still have the same problems.

[Therapist]

So I am going a little bit less upstream.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Closer to where you are.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And trying to give you movement.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So that you can react differently, which will change the perspective, which will change the tone, which will change the reorganization of the relationship.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

If there is more lightness or laughter, as in, you don't get hooked into everything, and every moment is another cortisol shot of stress.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah. It's like this intolerance I have for other people being unhappy or other people being agitated.

[Therapist]

I'm giving you some very, very concrete tools.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

You will learn to disengage.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Without having to cut off.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

You will learn to differentiate, to separate yourself from it and then decide how you want to react to it rather than be instantly sucked in and then resentful to him that, you know he complains, but you are doing the resentment piece. So this is bad theater.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. It's bad theater.

[Therapist]

And you have to respond to it like you have the editing power.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

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[Therapist]

We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Partner 2]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Partner 2]

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[Partner 2]

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[Partner 2]

I have the power or the positioning to respond to you differently when I feel like there's a dumping happening that I can see it. I can not fall into this narrative that we have of resentment and trappedness and instead I can help rewrite, I can help step back and I guess have grace for you in those moments and not feel sucked sucked into it. And I don't know, I just keep going back to responsible. It's absurd that you're complaining about the Supreme Court and I'm feeling burdened by it. That is an absurd thing and that's a way to be benevolent to you and to bring benevolence into our dynamic.

[Partner 1]

Yeah. The pattern was really beginning to etch itself into the floor, our dynamic. And I was playing a role, and I've got one note, and then we just. We were both playing our roles.

[Partner 2]

I don't know. The whole play metaphor, I think it's a little uncomfortable for me.

[Partner 1]

It's a little uncomfortable for me, too. But I also. I feel like I can access it through practice, through some rehearsals. But this idea that we aren't etched in, that actually there is some buoyancy and some malleability and that it can change, and you just change the costume. I'm not saying it's that simple. Right. I know it's not. There's even some peril to going through life thinking that every. You're a character who can just change habits.

[Therapist]

You're not going through life. It's just that the parts you've been playing are deadly. And if you continue and boring and feel like, how did I get there?

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They elicit grief.

[Therapist]

I once was, what happened to that person? Where did she go? So this is one attempt, and it feels awkward at first. But you know what's bizarre is that what you're doing doesn't feel awkward.

[Partner 2]

I mean, it does. It feels awkward to have, like, a monologue go on and have to pretend to respond to it. It's not authentically like, oh, tell me more. It's like, all right, do I try to, like, puncture the anger, or do I snap back or do I walk away? I'm still deciding what is my next move as this actor.

[Therapist]

Could you do a little venting?

[Partner 1]

Yeah. You want to give me something to vent about?

[Therapist]

No, no, just. What? I don't think you need help. Would you do a little bit of vent? That comes so natural to you. So.

[Partner 1]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Therapist]

Are you okay if we trade?

[Partner 2]

Yeah. I mean, you could just talk about what you're doing last night. You got too much.

[Partner 1]

Did you just recount yesterday?

[Partner 2]

Too many. Yeah.

[Partner 1]

All right.

[Therapist]

Yeah.

[Partner 1]

Today was. Today was finer. It was fine until around lunchtime when I looked down, and I only have one pair of pants that don't have holes in them, and I wore them today, and then a pen exploded in them, and it looks like I'm walking around like a cartoon. So then I had to. I for went lunch, and I had to go to the store, and I had to buy another pair of pants. And then what's his name came, and he was late, and so then I ended up, just staying late. And I was racing home, and. Well, then I didn't race home because I was late. I figured this is the time to go to the grocery store and that particular grocery store, like, every single grocery store in this town.

[Therapist]

You don't have to freeze. You can literally stop him at any moment with the most discontinuous line. I don't. Like, this will end.

[Partner 1]

No. I was shoulder to shoulder with everybody. And then I'm packing all this stuff up, and nobody's going in the same direction. There's no flow. I'm trying to listen to music, trying to calm myself. And then I know that these bags are getting heavier, and my back so about to break. And then I get on the train. Nowhere to set anything down. There's a dog.

[Therapist]

She's really good.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Partner 1]

And so I look at people, and I'm like, if I look at you and you have four bags on your back, maybe you're in the same boat as a pregnant person or an alcoholic person.

[Partner 2]

Maybe you should pretend to be pregnant.

[Partner 1]

Maybe I should pretend to be pregnant.

[Therapist]

All right. If you were in the theater, you'd be watching this, and you'd think, this case good at home. You think, this is unbearable.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. The actor thing is really hard for me. It's like, there's this, like, stepping into performance that happens fluidly, and I'm always grounded in, like, how do I respond to this? Like, this is happening without me here. So, you know, you wouldn't respond to someone on stage like, you. There's a dominating factor to it where it's like, I walk away and I've just absorbed this performance. I don't feel it as, like, oh, my partner's having a bad day. Like, I want to help. I feel it as, like, oh, there's a performance of discontent, and it's directed at me. And I don't know how to be an actor. I'm not trained that way. I don't. So the idea of, like, stepping on stage with him, I get it. I think there's a lot of opportunity to, like, pull him closer to me off stage.

[Therapist]

The goal is not to bring him closer to you. The goal is for you to create a boundary.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Where his monologue doesn't become your internal life.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

It's really about experiencing a separateness.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Because you dream separateness, but you are invaded with everything he has just said. It's like he colors your entire interiority.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. But I feel like I have relationships in which people share deep, intense emotions, and I.

[Therapist]

And you don't have that issue.

[Partner 2]

I don't have that issue. And I've attributed to, like, well, they're sharing their experience and they're being vulnerable, and I can hold space for that, but this is not that.

[Therapist]

So how do I maintain that space with him? The fact that I don't need to do this with other people is great. And then there is also the fact that sometimes with our partners, we end up experiencing what we felt at home more than with anybody else. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you grew up in and the one you then have a romantic tie to, even if it's an undone.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

Tie at this point.

[Therapist]

So it's about, you know what? I prefer the one of yesterday. Yesterday's was better. It's that level of comment. It's not entering the stage with him.

[Partner 2]

So it's not like breaking him off of it. It's just about.

[Therapist]

It's all about you.

[Partner 2]

It's about me.

[Therapist]

It's all about you. That's the whole point. It's about, you know, it's amazing the level of detail with which you observe people on the subway. It's so great, because most people these days don't look at anything. You should write that down.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Therapist]

He may not even smile now. He smiled. He may not smile, but you won't get sucked in.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

This is the first level of operation. I'm doing real micro surgery here. Those little lines, they preserve you. They create a boundary.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

It would be great if he didn't do what he does and he did what the other friends do. But it's not happening that way, so you need that agency that you describe. I have a way of actually not having your whole day become my day. That is fusion.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And I'm giving you one little tool.

[Partner 2]

For differentiation, because now I'd say I'm going to my. I'm shutting down.

[Therapist]

But that means that the only way I can have a boundary is if I disconnect and I cut off and I completely leave.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

That's okay. But that's one piece in the repertoire.

[Partner 2]

Right? Right.

[Therapist]

And most of the time, by the time I've closed my door, that whole shtick is inside of me anyway.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Walking down the hallway, it takes me God knows how long before I can cleanse that out.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Whereas if he goes into his thing and you just give him what's a line? You know, a response that actually preserves me.

[Partner 2]

Right. Because he can blame me for whatever, but I don't have to accept that you're in it.

[Therapist]

Yeah, you're in it saying, I don't want to be in it. Yeah, but you're in it and so.

[Partner 2]

You'Re in it and I can't leave it unless you change, unless you go to therapy.

[Therapist]

That's all Fusion. Yeah, I need you to change versus if I don't want to do this, I don't do this.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Fusion is when I need him to change in order for me to not have to feel what I feel. That's how intertwined we are. If I want to be able to hold on to myself in his presence, I need to create that line, that delineation. This is very profound, what we're saying here. It's one of the most challenging things in a relationship. I'm doing it in this pseudo playful way. But the underlying of this is a real restructuring of the whole relationship, which you're going to need no matter what model you opt for afterwards.

[Saks.com Advertiser]

It's so tempting to want the other person to stop doing what they do so that we won't feel what we feel. And yet there is so much more power and agency if we find a way to disengage emotionally in a way that preserves us without having to leave the other person completely. What I'm talking about with her is actually a way to stay connected to herself, to not let his day become her day, to not be hijacked, but also to not have to sever the entire connection. I'm not only interested in this between him and her, but I also know there is a child in the picture. And because this is intergenerational, the chain goes on.

[Esther Perel]

Where should we begin with? Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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