My Parents Got Divorced, So Why Am I Still in the Middle?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "My Parents Got Divorced, So Why Am I Still in the Middle?"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: May 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally charged session, psychotherapist Esther Perel guides a 40-year-old woman ("the client") as she navigates the enduring fallout from her parents' divorce after nearly four decades of marriage. The central focus is the client's ongoing sense of responsibility for mediating between her parents—even now that they're divorced—and her struggle to distinguish her own emotional needs from those of her mother. The conversation explores complex family loyalties, intergenerational patterns, personal boundaries, and the challenge of forging genuine relationships after a family rupture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family History & Emotional Triangulation

• Mother's Message (00:48): The episode opens with a revealing voicemail from the client's mother, highlighting the perception of a "perfect family," the father's strictness, and the family's avoidance of uncomfortable truths.
  • The mother reflects: "I think my husband was really strict... he knows who he can get away with pushing their buttons and he obviously could with me" (01:19).
  • Divorce was partly an attempt to break generational cycles: "One of the reasons I got divorced was so the cycle would end and my grandchildren wouldn't have to hear him disrespect me" (01:54).
• Client’s Reflection (04:58): The client describes feeling trapped in a triangle between her parents, acting as their "therapist" and family peacemaker for most of her life.
  • "I continued to always see myself as this peacemaker within my family, but I think my two siblings would disagree. They think that I’m like the rabble-rouser, but ... my goal is to just always have like genuine relationships with my parents." (05:25)

2. Current Family Dynamics Post-Divorce

• Lingering Roles & Emotional Stagnation (06:44):
  • The client perceives her parents as emotionally "stuck," still relating to each other (and their children) as adolescents.
  • "They’re stuck in this rut of being 16 year olds... they're almost emotionally stunted in a way." (06:44)
• Ongoing Conflicts & Attempts at Connection (09:07):
  • Despite the legal divorce, old dynamics persist—arguments flare up, particularly with her father, and efforts at reconciliation repeatedly cycle through conflict and avoidance.

3. Strained Relationship with Father

• Estranged Father-Daughter Bond:
  • The client mourns the "loss" of her father after divorce: "It really has been this process of letting go and realizing how much of my relationship with my father was actually my mother protecting me from my father.” (12:32)
• Desire for Accountability:
  • She struggles with her father's refusal to acknowledge past harms: "He now has this kind of new, fancy, shiny life and this new wife and seems to not acknowledge any of the pain that he’s caused." (10:13)
• Perel’s Challenge:
  • Esther questions whether the client's need for her father’s accountability is truly her own, or a vestige of her mother’s pain:

    “The question is not how do I hold my dad accountable. The question is, how do I sort out what are my feelings from my mother's feelings?" (12:22)

4. Communication Patterns & Disappointment

• Failed Attempts at Vulnerability:
  • The client recalls a heartfelt moment: "I just want you to know how much I miss you, how much my daughters miss you. And he just didn’t have a reaction." (15:15)
  • Perel reframes this: "He has no clue what to answer... you don’t say 'I miss you.' At best, you say, 'Come next Sunday.'" (24:12)
• Navigating Different Emotional Languages:
  • Perel advises that “If you want more from your dad, you may have to speak more often in the language of your dad. Because you can. Because you have more flexibility. And because you want.” (24:48)

5. Unfairness and Resentment

• Feelings of Inequity:
  • The client is frustrated that keeping the father connected requires her effort: "It just always feels so unfair that everybody else seems to have to do the work to keep him in our lives." (25:49)
• Perel's Pragmatic Wisdom:
  • “You want to see him, and you kind of have an idea of how to do it. … Not because 'why do I have to do the work?' It’s because I want to see my dad.” (26:04)
  • Esther uses a metaphor: “You can’t serve tomato soup. You need to serve carrot soup... If you serve him carrot soup, he will. What matters to you more?” (27:49)

6. Being Pulled Into Intergenerational Pain

• Mother’s Guilt and the Client’s Emotional Absorption:
  • The client feels burdened by her mother's ongoing pain and guilt, describing how her mother continues to confide in her, reigniting old wounds: "She’s always willing to share another disheartening story that I somehow missed from my childhood." (49:06)
• Seeking Boundary-Setting:
  • Perel coaches her in boundary language: “Mom, there’s a lot that you need to work through… Unfortunately, I can’t carry it with you.” (50:38)
  • The client worries this will hurt her mother, adding: "I struggle with those kinds of boundaries with her." (52:19)

7. Letting Go of the “Middle” Role

• Perel’s Core Challenge:
  • “How do you resign from a job that is no longer needed?” (46:09)
  • The client recognizes her role as outdated: “I was the one who was there for all the pain and suffering and therefore I’m the leading expert on their relationship when in fact... that might be a job that isn’t for hire anymore.” (46:36)
  • Perel: “While we don’t like the position, it also confers a sense of specialness...To let go of the service is to no longer be that much in the center...It can be suddenly disorienting. Like, then where am I?” (47:16)

8. Physical & Emotional Cues for Boundary Crossing

• Noticing Embodied Experiences:
  • Perel invites the client to notice physical sensations when her mother offloads emotional burdens: "It stiffens the neck and the shoulder... At that moment is when you have to act." (59:42)

9. Looking Ahead: New Relationship Terms

• Committing to Change:
  • The client acknowledges the need for a “clear line in the sand” to separate her own needs from her mother’s and move forward authentically in her family relationships. (58:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Parental Language Metaphor (Esther Perel, 27:49)

  "You can't serve tomato soup. You need to serve carrot soup... If you serve him carrot soup, he will. What matters to you more?"

• On Emotional Merging (Esther Perel, 55:10)

  "A boundary is not about people staying outside. A boundary is how to actually connect to people. But you connect from who you are and not from a merging of the stories as if her life had been yours."

• Letting Go of Old Roles (Esther Perel, 46:09)

  "How do you resign from a job that is no longer needed?"

• On Family Loyalty and Tribes (Esther Perel, 34:43)

  "She was in the family, and now she is no more. And when she's no more, she's ejected from the system and she no longer has a place in the story."

• On Unfairness and Personal Choice (Esther Perel, 26:04)

  "You want to see him, and you kind of have an idea of how to do it... And I may be smarter. I may have more relational intelligence than him... but I get to see him because I want to."

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:48–02:51 – Mother’s voicemail sets context for family secrets and legacy
• 04:58–08:33 – Client explains her “middle-person” childhood and ongoing family triangle
• 10:06–12:32 – Client grapples with holding her father accountable vs. untangling herself from her mother’s pain
• 13:31–15:44 – Client describes attempts to connect with father, recurring disappointment
• 24:12–28:33 – Perel reframes client’s efforts, introduces “speak his language” metaphor
• 46:09–48:21 – Discussion on how to “resign” from the role of family intermediary
• 50:38–55:10 – Scripted language for boundary setting with mother; Perel on boundary theory
• 59:11–61:13 – Recognizing embodied cues for emotional over-involvement; rituals for change

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Key Takeaways

• Parental Divorce Rarely Ends Emotional Entanglements: Legal separation does not necessarily disrupt longstanding emotional patterns or roles within a family.
• Children as Perpetual Mediators: Children, even in adulthood, can find themselves recruited—by necessity or habit—into parental conflicts, with consequences for their own well-being.
• Differentiating Emotional Ownership: It is crucial to discern and separate one's own emotions from the “emotional residue” of parental pain or expectation.
• Boundaries are Connection Tools: Setting boundaries is not rejection, but a route to connecting authentically and preserving selfhood.
• Change is Disorienting but Empowering: Letting go of old roles can feel unsettling, but it opens up space for new, healthier forms of relatedness.

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Episode Mood & Tone

The tone is searching, vulnerable, and sincere, blending Esther Perel’s trademark directness and metaphorical wisdom with the client's openness about her longing and frustration. The episode is punctuated by moments of tough love, humor, sadness, and relief, as client and therapist co-create strategies for healing and moving forward.

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Transcript

[Esther Perel]

Hi.

[Producer/Host]

Hi.

[Esther's Client]

Hi, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

So this is a very interesting starting point for me because I think it's your mother who reached out on your behalf.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And it's a gesture that I think you welcomed.

[Esther's Client]

I did.

[Esther Perel]

Great. So I suggest we listen to her voice message.

[Esther's Client]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

And then we'll take it from there and we will know why she reached out to on your behalf and what she was hoping to gift you by creating this opportunity. How does that sound?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, sounds great.

[Producer/Host]

Okay, great.

[Esther Perel]

Let's listen.

[Esther's Client's Mother]

I think they all thought they had a pretty good childhood. Their friends thought we were like the perfect family. And I hit a lot of stuff and my kids saw a lot, you know, but nobody talks about it in our family, at least in hindsight. I think my husband was really strict and it was because she was the oldest and she had the loudest mouth and he wanted to be respected and she would go at him and I would be in the middle and I would always take her side because I just remember one conversation where he. I don't even remember the meaning of it. We were at dinner and he said, well, I'm going to take your car away for three years. And I was like, well, that's just flipping ridiculous. You know what I mean? I have to go to work. She has to bring the kids to crew. But he never talked like that to the other two. He did once to my youngest daughter, and she told them never again. And he never, like, he knows who he can get away with pushing their buttons and he obviously could with me. So I don't know how much of it is pent up childhood anxiety. Right. We never talked about it. I mean, I think one of the reasons I got divorced was so the cycle would end and my grandchildren wouldn't have to hear him disrespect me. I said one thing about her dad yelling at her and she just looked at me and said, we can't talk about that. And I just never talked about it again. Right. Everybody's perceptions are different. And what I remember would be different from what she remembers as an 18 year old kid. You know, her dad was awesome to her. You know, he did everything for his kids and still does. He'd build you a bookcase, but he couldn't tell you he loved you as much. You know what I mean? It's just who he is and we're all different. I couldn't build the bookcase, but I could tell him I loved him. You know,

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[Producer/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

This I agree with that I'm not sure this I totally disagree with your face is saying ye, maybe nay.

[Esther's Client]

I didn't realize that it would be a roller coaster of emotions or yeah, perplex, you know, perplexity and then total agreement.

[Esther Perel]

But I don't know from listening to mom why you are here. So maybe we start with that. I understand a little bit about a background, your relationship with your father, her ex husband. That is fraught at this moment. But you can give me a little bit more precision. Why would she want you to be here? What did you come for and what is your question?

[Esther's Client]

So I recently turned 40 years old. A few days ago my parents were pretty much married for almost 40 years. Three years ago they got divorced. I have felt like for as long as I can remember it really was this triangle of a relationship with me, my mom and my dad. I was always there. Esther Perel I really was their therapist throughout their whole relationship. I was always the one who would say the things that my mom was scared to say to my dad. I was always the one who my mom told way too many details about their relationship to. I continued to always see myself as this peacemaker within my family, but I think my two siblings would disagree. They think that I'm like the rebel rouser, but I think my goal is to just always have like genuine relationships with my parents. And right now I feel like I can't have A genuine relationship with my father. I have my own little family. I have an adoring, loving husband. I have two little daughters. And our relationship is really built on this complete love and respect that I never witnessed from my father to my mother growing up. And I never thought that I would have. So still to this day, you know, I feel like my mom looks at me as like the wise sage who continues to give her advice. And yeah, she. My parents had all of their kids when they were very young. They've known each other since they were 16. They were the only people that each other ever dated and ever really knew.

[Esther Perel]

And.

[Esther's Client]

And to this day, when I interact with both of them, I kind of get the sense that they're stuck in this rut of being 16 year olds. That's how they continue to fight. And they're almost like emotionally stunted in a way.

[Esther Perel]

Both of them.

[Esther's Client]

Both of them, in a way. Definitely my father. Much more so. My mom seems to be the one who's always at least willing to do the hard work, the dirty work of having a therapist trying to make herself, trying to ultimately be happy and be at peace with herself in a way that my father does in a very roundabout way, a very external way. As long as everything looks good, everything feels good inside.

[Esther Perel]

And your question in being here today is what?

[Esther's Client]

Good question. I kept thinking about this one question and I think even over the course of the past few weeks, it's really changed. I think if I were to make it really specific at this point, it would be how do I continue to have a genuine relationship with my father specifically, and how do I manage my relationship with both of my newly divorced parents?

[Esther Perel]

But your newly divorced parents have been living an invisible divorce for decades before they have in their own home. So they're not that newly divorced.

[Esther's Client]

No, they're not.

[Esther Perel]

And they are as attached as they were before. They may be legally divorced, but they fight no less. They're still in each other's brains, lives, nervous systems and the like.

[Esther's Client]

Yes, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

So in fact, your situation is not that new.

[Esther's Client]

It's true. The thing that they were always so good at was pretending like everything was okay. You had to be deep in, you know, like deeply a part of the family to know the ins and outs of how my parents operated and when things were not good. And most of the time they were. That's not true. Half of the time they were really not good.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so, yeah, so give me a tiny bit of info about what actually happens and what happens between you and your father.

[Esther's Client]

It's changed a lot, even over the course of the past two weeks to a month. I do feel like over the past three years I've been grieving the loss of my father, the loss of the relationship that I once had with him. Most recently a few weeks ago, he came to visit me and we were texting each other beforehand and kind of decided to just pretend like everything was normal for my daughters, for everybody involved. And it was a lovely time. My dad and his new wife came over and we had a great day actually. But the weekend before that, we got into an explosive blowout fight at my nephew's birthday party. And it seems to ebb and flow, but kind of always come back to this place where I'm holding in so much anger.

[Esther Perel]

What did you explode about?

[Esther's Client]

So all of the things that I keep trying to get him to answer and keep feeling not satisfied about, mostly. I saw a therapist a few years ago to figure out how to let go of this idea of holding my dad accountable for what a bad husband he was to my mother. He now has this kind of new fancy, shiny life and this new wife and seems to not acknowledge any of the pain that he's caused in the past. And that's been this journey that I've gone through of realizing that maybe I can't hold him accountable at all. He kind of takes no accountability because

[Esther Perel]

he says what he says I was. I loved your mom deeply, dearly and sweetly.

[Esther's Client]

No, no, he's not. He's never used the word love to me or to my mom. Yeah, he. Growing up it was always kind of this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde situation. He had very inconsistent moods.

[Esther Perel]

But why, if I may, why is it important for you that he acknowledged to you that he was a shitty husband who's put you to this task? Why does he need to be accountable to you about if at all? He should maybe be to his ex. But what is it that you're wanting or needing from him by asking him to admit to you that he didn't treat his wife well, Would that justify the 20 something years of free therapy you provided? And what is in it for you?

[Esther's Client]

I do feel like I do my mother's dirty work a lot and she is in my head. And I've realized only really recently that when I've had some so much pent up anger that comes out in chaotic kind of crazy ways and thoughts.

[Esther Perel]

Feelings you're actually monitoring.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, yeah. I can't separate it. I've.

[Esther Perel]

So that's a very different issue. That means the question Is not how do I hold my dad accountable. The question is, how do I sort out what are my feelings for my mother's feelings?

[Esther's Client]

Yes, that is definitely a big piece of it. I think the other piece is the fact that I used to be so close with my dad. He used to come visit all the time. He used to text me all the time and be very much involved in my life with my young daughters and my husband, who he has a lot in common with. And it really has been this process of letting go and realizing how much of my relationship with my father was actually my mother protecting me from my father. When my dad has really hurt me in the past three years and I've let him known that he's really hurt me, he just kind of cuts ties. There's no. There's no follow up. I am always the one who reaches back out to him with an apology or always wanting a little more from him. So, yeah, so he used to be so involved and it was like this fading away, the slipping away of this father figure that I used to know.

[Esther Perel]

Have you asked him?

[Esther's Client]

I have, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Have you asked him or have you complained?

[Esther's Client]

Good question. Have confronted him? Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That's not the same.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah,

[Esther Perel]

you've confronted him. As in you were a shitty husband, now you're a shitty father, so to speak. Yeah. Or you're able to say, I would love for you to see you more often. I really enjoy when you hear and it means a lot to me.

[Esther's Client]

I feel like I've tried the whole range of possible ways of getting at him that I could ever think of. It started a few years ago, me kind of calling him and trying to talk to him one on one or driving to his house and trying to have conversations with him. And then it turned into me trying to FaceTime him or text him later when kind of all of that seemed to slip away. I would try and talk to him one on one at family events. And that's kind of.

[Esther Perel]

But when you say conversations facetime, talk to him, it's what kind of conversations you usually approach him to tell him your disappointments?

[Esther's Client]

Yes, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

So are you surprised that he would have less contact with you if he anticipates scolding every time he sees you?

[Esther's Client]

Definitely. There was one time about a year ago where as I drove to see him, I was like, I just have. I always try to condense it down to its most simplest form. I'm like, I just have one message to him today and that is that I deeply miss him. So at this one party, I Tried to just say that, and with tears in my eyes and couldn't really get it out, I said, I just want you to know that how much I miss you, how much my daughters miss you. And he just didn't have a reaction. And it's been this long heartbreak of realizing that he had nothing to say in the moment. Even when I tried my most compassionate version of trying to get him back.

[Esther Perel]

He sees his sisters more.

[Esther's Client]

Good question. He would see me and my brother the most. So I'm the oldest then my brother, and my littlest sister. It's been really interesting to see how they have really different perceptions than I do of my parents and their divorce and the relationships that we have now with both of them. All three of us are now in agreement that he has taken a big step back and he doesn't really have much of an. An interest in his grandchildren. And.

[Esther Perel]

And what do people think? He has a new partner, he's into a new life. He sees her grandchildren. What. What's the understanding of why he has stepped back?

[Esther's Client]

I think, yeah, I am always jumping into. You know, there was a while where I went down this whole Google search black hole of diagnosing him with all these different things. I was like, maybe he's bipolar or a narcissist or a covert narcissist. So I am always looking for a reason like that because I feel like my whole life I saw the mood changes and the mood swings, and I was the one who knew. Knew about their relationship more than my other siblings. So I've always been the one who's, like, the most invested. But their understanding of my dad slipping away, I think we're all in the same boat, that, yeah, he started this new life. He kind of is holding on to this one person for dear life at this point. And after his divorce with my mom slipped into this really dark place, and I think we'll do whatever it takes to never get back to that place. So I think he had to kind of push us away.

[Esther Perel]

How do you connect with her?

[Esther's Client]

She's incredible. She's amazing. She's so open and compassionate, and she has two daughters of her own who are younger, and she doesn't have any grandchildren on that side. I think I've learned only recently the story that my father has told her about our lives and my mother. And it's a very twisted version, in my opinion, of, you know, what we actually all experienced. So that's been hard. I think that's something that I'm finding to be very difficult, really. Recently is coming to the realization about how my father continues to talk about my mother to the people that he's closest with and managing the blowback that comes with that and trying to protect my mother in the process and trying to kind of fake it till I make it in this new path of a relationship with my father.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Producer/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

What if I succeed?

[Producer/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

But you asked me how do I have a more sincere and truthful relationship with my dad and then you tell me two weeks ago I had a big blow up with him, but it was perfectly truthful. There was actually loads of authentic feelings in there. And then the second time he came to me and we had a beautiful day together and that was equally truthful. So your relationship with your dad is not sitting on false premises. It may not be as warm and loving and expressive and consistent as you would like it to be, but it seems everyone is kind of letting the other one know where they are at. And when your dad doesn't answer you, you know, your interpretation immediately was here I am, bearing my soul, coming to you without accusation, just from my heart, telling you I miss you. And you were stunted. And why would you think he wouldn't be? He was as truthful as he could be. Actually, he's not a person that you reach out to with the sheer language of emotion. Never was. That's what you said when you say he doesn't. Or your mom said he doesn't say I love you, he builds a bookcase. And so to tell him I miss you leaves him rather stumped. He has no clue what to answer.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Or to say that this is perfectly truthful. It's unpleasant to you, it leaves you dissatisfied, it leaves you hungry, it leaves you a little lonely that he wouldn't say, oh I'm so sorry to hear that, or oh, I miss you too, or oh, let's do something about that. No, then you know him too well to actually, you don't say I miss you. At best you say, come next Sunday.

[Esther's Client]

Yes, that's been the one and only trick that worked.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, that's the equivalent of the bookcase. So if you want more from your dad, you may have to speak more often in the language of your dad. Now, I am well aware that there are people who would hear this who would instantly say, why me? Why shall I be the one? Why doesn't he adapt to me? So, because you can. Because you have more latitude, because you have more flexibility, and because you want. And because you should get what you want and be smart about how you get it. And if when you say, come next week, he shows up and it is going well, then you will know that you don't tell your dad, I miss you, hoping he will say, I miss you. You just tell your dad, here is when I want to see you come over.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, that is the part that I've wrestled with that just always feels so unfair that everybody else seems to have to do the work to keep him in our lives.

[Esther Perel]

You could say, why me? It's another version, why me? Why do I have to be the one to adapt? Why do I have to contort myself? Why do I have to speak his language? Why do I have to turn myself over? You know, to maintain, to keep him? But the other piece is simply, you want to see him, and you kind of have an idea of how to do it. And when you do, you actually get to enjoy it. Well, then just do it. And not because why do I have to do the work? It's because I want to see my dad. And when I want to see my dad, I need to do A, B, C, D. That's kind of what gets him over. That's what makes him connect. That's what makes him be present. That's what. And I may be smarter. I may have more relational intelligence than him. And yeah, he's lucky, the poor guy, that because I make all these initiatives, he gets to see me and his grandchildren, but I get to see him because I want to. I don't have to justify why I want to. And those are my needs, not my mother's needs. I gotta differentiate a bit from what is mine and what is Mom's. And yeah, there's something unfair about it. Like, I have to be smarter than him on some level in this area. But ultimately it gets justified because it answers my wish. And remember, I'm not doing this to be nice to him. I'm doing this because I want him in my life. Now, why do I want him in my life? You know, I mean, we could spend an hour and analyze why. Why he matters to you, but the main thing is he does. And to get more of him. You can't serve tomato soup. You need to serve carrot soup, you know, and you can say, oh, my God, I love tomato soup. Why can't I for once serve him tomato soup? If you serve him tomato soup, he won't eat at your house. If you serve him carrot soup, he will. What matters to you more?

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

It's like own your wish, is what I'm saying to you. If you own it and claim it and don't justify it. This is a strange thing for me to say. Me, who usually goes looking for complexity. I'm totally simplifying this. But on some level, it's like she actually knows what to do. She resents it a little bit because she doesn't think it's fair, because she thinks she's spending all her time thinking about how to get him over. And he doesn't think, spend nearly as much time. That's the guy. And you can diagnose him 10 times. It's not going to change. So I think you may want to change your Google page.

[Esther's Client]

I think so, too. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that it's just such a simple answer or a simple idea. I think that is the. The route that my brother specifically has taken. A little more hands off, a little less, you know, lying awake at 3 o'clock in the morning, overthinking his new relationship, how our relationship will go forward, and just taking it a little bit more for what it is.

[Esther Perel]

But your brother has less of your mother's voice inside of him. So maybe the challenge for you is in love. You love both your parents, however they treated each other, that you care about each of them, and you've spent more energy how to bring him closer to you rather than on some level, how to delineate yourself a little bit more from her.

[Esther's Client]

Effy, that's something that I have only started thinking about very recently. There was this. This moment at this family party where I was screaming at my father, my mother was talking to his mother, all just kind of desperately trying to get our point across and share our version of the story and have them accept that. And it was just this chaotic event. And that was. That was the thing that led my mother to reach out to you. Esther, A line that my mother kept saying over the past three years was, I just want my family back. If I could just get my family back. And I feel this big responsibility to prove to her that, like, we're all still intact, we're all still okay.

[Esther Perel]

What does that mean? I want my family back. Good Question in what way? She,

[Esther's Client]

you know, Christmas is a few weeks away, and she was about to invite my father and his new wife to her house just to literally get us all in the same room again. She desperately wants us to sleep over her house and have family holidays like we used to, and to have my dad's whole side of his family to talk to her again.

[Esther Perel]

And because they don't, because she initiated the divorce. So it's not just her children. It's the whole constellation that is the

[Esther's Client]

big misunderstanding that she initiated the divorce. And that's something that my father's new wife even mentioned the other day at this birthday party. I kind of got into it a little bit with her as well, and that is not the truth. My father was the one to repeatedly kick my mother out of the house my whole life, and then he finally kicked her out one last time, and she. She made the choice to stay away. She was the one who wanted to just take a break and cool things down a little bit. And he was the one who said, I don't do breaks. We're getting a divorce. So even. Even that is continues to cause, like, ripple effects in. In the family. My mother continues to see his side of the family out in public. They kind of live in this small town, and she's called me crying several times, saying that they refused to look at her or they've, you know, said mean things. This family, we used to all be so intact, and we used to all be so close with my dad's whole side of the family.

[Esther Perel]

And you don't speak to them anymore either.

[Esther's Client]

No, I do. I do. I'm still very close with all of them.

[Esther Perel]

And they all ban her because they think she dissolved the family.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. I don't know exactly what they think. They're just a word that my aunt used to describe it recently was they're all just so tribal. They're kind of just like how he is kind of clinging to this new woman for dear life. They're doing whatever it takes to kind of protect him, believe his whole side of the story entirely. Even though they were there for so much of the chaos and the confusion growing up, they're really in this protective mode of totally embracing this new woman who's lovely and really protecting my dad at all costs. So it was tricky going to see his side of the family for Thanksgiving, and all of a sudden, I'm in this room with all these people and didn't even have this thought before I really entered the room, but I was like, oh, my mom called me crying a few days ago about how abused people looked at her like she was the devil and refused to make eye contact with her, even though they've known her since she was 16 years old. And now I'm in a room full of all of them. Nobody's asking about my mom. No one seems to care. Everybody is just on the defense, and I love them so much. They're such a huge part of my life. But there's just this big disconnect. This big wall goes up in front of everybody's face whenever I mention my mother.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, she was in the family, and now she is no more.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And when she's no more, she's ejected from the system and she no longer has a place in the story. And your brother and sister also came.

[Esther's Client]

My brother was there. My sister was abroad. But yes, my brother was there.

[Esther Perel]

And his experience, he again, just kind

[Esther's Client]

of showed up, rolled with the punches. Doesn't do what I do, which is kind of like talk to my aunts and uncles and like little. Little groups and try and bring my mom up just naturally. Not intentionally or intentionally.

[Esther Perel]

No, no, you bring her up intentionally because you want to check and you want to test and you want to verify your assumptions. You want to see, you know, what will it take. And you're going to sometimes get pushed back. So my question is to you, it's like, you go to visit them, you have a good idea that in their tribal tradition, when you're in, you're in. When you're out, you're out. You don't do breaks, you don't do transitions, you don't do middle grounds, you don't do past, or you edit the past from the pieces that no longer belong to it.

[Esther's Client]

Definitely.

[Esther Perel]

If you don't like it, you're allowed not to go for Thanksgiving, but you want to be there. And when you say my mother wants her family back, in a way, you want it, too, in a different version, but you want to have them talk about her in a way that maintains a continuity or that acknowledges the past or that keeps a space for her, maybe even an empty seat at a table, so to speak. And there's something that you are holding on to as well.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, I think it is my mom, in my ear, is a big part of it.

[Esther Perel]

What does she say? What do you hear her say? Actually, Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

I mean, she said out loud leading up to this event, I wish that I could be there. I wish that I could see all your cousins and all their children. Yeah, I wish I could have my family back. Her famous line.

[Esther Perel]

And then you take that, you put it in the mill and it comes out as, now I'm talking to my cousins and I'm bringing up my mother and I'm testing to see if they're going to acknowledge her and if somebody is going to say something about her.

[Esther's Client]

It's tricky because this one specific house that I went to, my closest aunt and cousins, they are the only ones in the family who we used to be very close with them growing up. And they're the ones who continue to maintain a relationship with my mother. And my dad actually wasn't at this Thanksgiving. But there are lots of moments, not even created by me or started by me, where my aunt would pull me aside and check in and ask about my mom. And it was my aunt and my two girl cousins who we kind of sat down and just talked about it all about how. All about how sad we are that she's not here and how they miss her and how she was their favorite aunt and how they wish things could be different. They said, we wish that we could have her over for all the holidays instead of my own father. So. Yeah, so. So it's not entirely driven by me, but I'm obviously a big, big factor.

[Esther Perel]

I hear what you're.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And they. So not everybody has shunned her.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

How many siblings?

[Esther's Client]

Oh, on my dad's side, there are eight. There are six living siblings.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. So there's six aunts.

[Esther's Client]

Most of them are.

[Esther Perel]

Or uncles.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, yeah. But a big family. And this one family who my dad has also kind of severed ties with in a lot of ways, but because they still talk to my mom,

[Esther Perel]

it

[Esther's Client]

was interesting to hear you say in just a very matter of fact way that that is what families do. I always go back to the fact

[Esther Perel]

that some, some families you're either in or you're either out. When you're out, there's no need to mention you anymore. That's one model. There are many different pieces, but some. Yes. Like your dad says, if you talk to my ex, you know, you make you. You choose. Basically you choose. You choose.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You know, you choose your brother or you choose his ex wife. That's another. Either or. You know, some try to stay in touch secretly.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Some do it publicly, some edit the story. Everybody will have a story about your parents marriage and what went wrong. And the stories won't necessarily fit and everybody is kind of a free author. But some stories will have more currency than others. And because people have been very much in touch through an extended family for a long time. It demands a ton of rearranging. And when your mom wants to invite your dad to come over for Christmas, it may be a premature, but it may also be that he will not, he won't give her that pleasure. He wants to have the last word. Yeah. So he won't necessarily come, at least not immediately. He may come if his wife says, you know, there's a new whisperer. And if she's as wonderful as you described, she may say it's important for you to maintain contact. It's important for your family to be able to be maybe I'll bring my daughters as well. The puzzle can take many shapes in this transition after a great divorce, right? Everybody already has their own family units. People were together for 40 years. There's a lot of stories they can use to rewrite stories to rewrite history.

[Producer/Host]

We are in the midst of our session.

[Esther Perel]

There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

[Producer/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Producer/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

The question for you is how do you step out of this triangular situation? And it seems to not be an easy thing for you to do. Yeah, it's like you don't like it, but you can't resign. And that's my question is how do you resign from a job that is no longer needed? Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

So true.

[Esther Perel]

They will not agree.

[Esther's Client]

Serves no purpose.

[Esther Perel]

They will each have a different story about what happened. You are not there to try to make one unified story. She will say this, he will say that, and you will say something else.

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Everybody will have their version of what happened, why it ended this way, who ended it.

[Esther's Client]

So interesting that makes me really think that you know the same thing that I keep faulting my father for having this very black and white version of reality. And what happened in their divorce is kind of exactly what I'm doing. I keep thinking I'm in this triangular relationship. I was the one who was there for all the pain and suffering and therefore I'm the leading expert on their relationship when in fact, like you said, that might be a job that isn't for hire anymore.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, you do know a lot, but you may not want to keep your position. But, you know, it's disorienting when we resign, because while we don't like the position, it also confers a sense of specialness, a sense of expertise, sometimes a sense of a certain power. There's some kind of secondary benefits at times, even while we think, why am I doing this? This shouldn't be me. I shouldn't have to be in the middle. But there is something about having been recruited for the middle that then turned into voluntary service. And to let go of the service is to no longer be that much in the center, to not be in the know. And while it clears a tremendous amount of psychic space, it also can be suddenly disorienting. Like the. Then where am I?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What's my place when I had such a clearly defined place.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

I'm so close with my mom, and when she comes over, you know, I really. I've tried to be better at, like, setting boundaries and saying, this whole weekend, we're not going to talk about dad.

[Esther Perel]

And you succeed.

[Esther's Client]

No. Eventually, it always creeps in.

[Esther Perel]

All right, so how do we have a little button that buzzes every time you know you're being pulled back in? Do you ever talk about you?

[Esther's Client]

Yes. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So it's not that there is a shortage of other topics, but this one is always on the menu.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. She's always willing to share another disheartening story that I somehow missed from my childhood.

[Esther Perel]

And then what would you do if you actually did it differently?

[Esther's Client]

How would I do it differently? If she started to engage in a conversation about my father?

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Did I ever tell you that time when we came home and this is what happened? Mm. Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

Usually I'd say, wow, you never told me that before. No, please tell.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And your dad, that day was utterly unbearable.

[Esther's Client]

I might say I need a break. I need to not even know this information because it creeps into my brain at 3 o' clock in the morning and I can't get it out. And it really kind of lives right inside of me and comes out in a really strong, awful, passionate way when I see my father the next time. So I just need to stop you right there and have you keep that one for yourself.

[Esther Perel]

How does that one feel?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, that feels good,

[Esther Perel]

Mom. There's a lot that you need to work through, and you have a lot of unpleasant memories. I know this is a lot for you to carry. Unfortunately, I can't carry it with you.

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Whenever you tell me Something I go to bat for you. It translates into. Into a rift between me and dad, as if it had happened to me, and I know it hasn't. And I have to find a better way for your stories not to enter under my skin. I wish I could hear your stories without personalizing them. If you told me you had coffee yesterday, I wouldn't personalize it. If you told me you like pain au chocolat, I wouldn't personalize it. I know that this is you and not me, but when you start talking about that, somehow the line has been crossed for me. I have not always known to separate the two. So I know how hard it is for you to carry this, but I'm sorry, I can't listen.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. I think for my mom, that would be. I anticipate that that would be heartbreaking for her to hear. I struggle with those kind of boundaries with her to hear the part.

[Esther Perel]

The part that you won't listen to her stories or the part that her stories create conflict between you and your dad?

[Esther's Client]

I think the first. And I think she takes it all in. She takes all the guilt on herself. I think that in a way, me creating a boundary just like adds to the guilt and shame somehow, instead of freeing her up to problem solve on her own.

[Esther Perel]

So let's address that.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And she feels guilty. About what, leaving him or staying?

[Esther's Client]

Both. At very different times. Her line, my whole life would be, it's so much. So much easier to stay. It's so much harder to go.

[Esther Perel]

Right. And she feels guilty in what sense?

[Esther's Client]

She. Every time that I hang up the phone with her, she says, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Sorry that I ruined my family. I'm so sorry that you still have to overthink this and talk to somebody about this.

[Esther Perel]

Well, one way I may talk about it less is if you talk about it to me less. By your continuously bringing it up. It actually keeps it awake and alive.

[Esther's Client]

Definitely.

[Esther Perel]

And if you really want to help me, this is what you can do. Yeah, but then it really needs to be if you really want to help me. Not if you say you want to help me, but in fact, you want me to help you. Yeah. You made your choices. It's okay. It's for you to deal with. I'm taking care of my part of the story. But if you think about the effect it had on me, then the best thing you can do is to stop.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And the best thing I will do is to stop you.

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Mm.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. There have been. We've tried it I think we've like dipped our toe in and now is the time to really commit to making that happen. Yeah. Because I am so open and honest with her and she's been there through the good and the bad. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

This is all done with love.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I understand you are continuously re examining your relationship and it's important that you re examine your relationship by yourself more.

[Esther's Client]

So, yeah, that's powerful to hear from

[Esther Perel]

you, you know, but it's very important that this be done not in confrontation with clarity. You're going to do this trial and error. You're going to miss many times because you're so routinized into. Tell me more and tell me the story and let me dig into your. Well,

[Esther's Client]

absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And then exactly at 3 o' clock in the morning, you wake up in the middle of the night and the next time you see your dad, you spit out to him as if you were the wife. And there is a confusion of roles and a confusion of who's who and what belongs to whom. A boundary is not about people staying outside. A boundary is how to actually connect to people. But you connect from who you are and not from a merging of the stories as if her life had been yours. You have your own marriage.

[Esther's Client]

There was an exact example of that role reversal. My mom went to go talk with my dad one on one recently. They went to go have brunch together and they had a lovely time. They hugged each other, they each apologized to each other. And then my mom came back and told me. I hate that I was so friendly. I wish that I said this, this and this. And then it was the next time that I saw him, I was.

[Esther Perel]

You told him that they say this?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. So I have to find a way not to be thief. Right. Everything goes through me porously and pours out on the other side and I feel like it's off. I realize that I am saying things, but they're not really mine. I pour out, you know, it's as if I've been. Something has been dumped inside of me. It needs to be let out, but it doesn't feel. In this case, I'm going to use your word, it doesn't feel truthful. Meaning it's yours, but it's not yours.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Interesting.

[Esther's Client]

It always does feel like it lives right here. Like it's not even far down in me. It's just something that I take in and have to spit back out again.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Does that resonate the description I just made?

[Esther's Client]

Yes, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

Two or ten.

[Esther's Client]

It's Definitely a ten.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So if you go home and you tell your mom about this session, since this is a session that she offered you, how do you thank her at the same time as you also say to her, I'm about to do something that's going to be new for both of us and maybe challenging for both of us?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, I think it will be really good. I think, in a way, both of us anticipated that this would be a big theme brought up. My mom is truly selfless, and I think she's. She's ready to receive it. It's going to be a little tricky, and we're going to definitely stumble on the way, but I think. I think a clear line in the sand needs to be drawn.

[Esther Perel]

Let me ask you something. When your mom told you, I should have said, da, da, da, da, da, and then the next time you met him, you told him, da, da, da, da, da. At what point did you feel that the package had been dropped on your chest?

[Esther's Client's Mother]

Hmm.

[Esther's Client]

Good question. Probably as soon as my mom told me.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, you're going to use that cue. You know, there is a kind of an incoherent but immediate feeling you have physically in your body when she transfers her emotional experience onto you.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Generally, people know it. They don't. They. It. It's like it stiffens the neck and the shoulder. There's something. They know that something is entering them. That's a foreign object. It's not theirs. At that moment is when you have to act, not because of what she says, because she can say other things at other times, and you don't have that feeling. And that's fine. That's how this is not becoming something so rigid. But when you have that feeling like, ooh, you know, foreign and antennas are entering here, then you know that you have to create that demarcation.

[Esther's Client's Mother]

It's.

[Esther's Client]

It's funny how. How long it takes to realize that, to look back in retrospect and be like, huh, that's exactly how that played out. But, yeah, usually I take lots of breaths and I huff and I puff, and I might stand up and say, no, you've never told me that story before, but I'm, like, collecting it all right here.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Yes. And it doesn't matter if you have or if you haven't. That story belongs to you, and I trust that you will find a place for it.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, she will. She has so many friends and co workers, and she has a great therapist, so she will.

[Esther Perel]

Beautiful.

[Esther's Client]

It's just.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

It's leaving this. This relationship behind. With my father and also. Yeah. Starting our own new path forward.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Esther's Client]

Thank you so much.

[Esther Perel]

Austin.

[Sponsor Voice]

This was an Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. Were part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Esther's Client]

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[Esther's Client]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Esther's Client]

Thank you.