Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (2:45)

You are eight months pregnant and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby. And you know all the crazy things people tell you when you're pregnant and what your sex life will be after that.

Esther Perel (3:00)

But it doesn't seem like this is just a developmental and circumstantial reality between them. Basically, the dance is that one of them approaches and the other one tries to do it right. But the word trying is what is complicated here, because the moment she tries. Her partner feels that she's not really into it. She then gets really upset and then they stop everything and then they launch a deep three hour conversation into the night that brings them back together into their closeness and intimacy, but also into a complete erotic dry spell. And this gets repeated and repeated. So they arrive eager to break free of this sexual impasse. So let's listen.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (3:54)

We've been together six years and we have this shared friend and we met and it was very beautiful in that way. Just like, yeah, let's talk more, let's do more stuff with each other. Let's plan a trip, let's do it. Then we got married and it's very freeing and very like pure.

Esther Perel (4:20)

And what drew you?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (4:24)

Well, I think that like initial metaphor, I always say it's like I'm an anthropologist and she's a series of hidden doors. So very curious about her. I like want to know. And she's extremely.

Esther Perel (4:41)

You can't say you because she's sitting next to you just in case you want.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (4:45)

You're very, very interesting to me. And then you convinced me to trust you in a way I've never trusted anybody else. Because you're made of more tough material than other people. I.

Esther Perel (5:03)

What would be your material you're made of?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (5:08)

What's my material? I think I'm extremely certain about who I am, what I want. I have a lot of words immediately about my emotions. If it's very direct, trying to explain myself all the time. And that kind of hides that I'm not really trusting of other people to do it for themselves. And so I've developed these ways to really do a lot of work for them. I'm very sensitive to how they're feeling. I'm very alert, very vigilant to their moods and I'm very descriptive with how I feel and how I want to be treated so that they know how to get it right. I'm providing them all the data and.

Esther Perel (6:05)

They implies your wife.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (6:09)

I think a lot of times that's what I'm trying to do.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (6:14)

Yeah, I think you are afraid of being misunderstood. I feel like you have a lot of words for your feelings and your emotions and you know what they are, right when you're feeling them. And when you're feeling them you have to say them. And I don't like I'll be crying and you'll ask me what's wrong or what I'm feeling. And I can't name a word for it. But you're the person who's like Slowly brought that out.

Esther Perel (6:45)

So you're learning a new language.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (6:49)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (6:51)

That you didn't know existed or that you were taught to suppress or that wasn't valued.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (7:05)

I think my value was that I'm easygoing. I'm not gonna make a fuss, make a fuss, make a problem. You don't have to worry about me. And I get praised for being useful and helpful and kind and not making it about me. And I think part of what I learned with that was like, okay, so it's just, like, accommodate everyone else. Everything's okay. If you're able to, like, maneuver around and go with the flow and not be bothered by anyone or anything.

Esther Perel (7:41)

And what would you say are the circumstances of your life that made that way of being.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (7:47)

So I think, like, my childhood, like, growing up in two different houses. The really chaotic stepfather. And.

Esther Perel (8:01)

Chaotic can mean a lot of things if we're gonna go to new language and more precision.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (8:10)

He was more of a child than a parent in the way he acted, so was not dependable in that role to me. While also chaotically ripping apart our house. And turns out he didn't pay taxes, and then we had to file bankruptcy. And, like, both chaotic physically, but also, like, emotionally. It was always like he was doing something wacky. But in that house, my grandmother lived on the bottom floor, and so I just, like, hung out with her all the time. Whenever things were, like, a little chaotic, I was like, I'll leave, Go be with my grandma. All that goes on upstairs, and I take refuge over here.

Esther Perel (8:56)

You shielded yourself.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (8:57)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (8:59)

And so why her of all people? Of all people, why you?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (9:08)

I think you're unlike anyone I've ever met. You're so fun and funny. Like, I joke about it, but you do have a zest for life that is very, like, infectious. And I think. I know I have that in me as well, but it can be tamped down by my, like, pragmatism, I think. And you bring that out in me when I feel like I am like, a stick in the mud. Or, like, you encourage me to have fun in life, and I need that.

Esther Perel (9:40)

So you're the stick and the arabesque. And what made you want to do a session here? How did that come about?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (9:57)

Well, we've had a hard last two years, and I think we've really been having trouble connecting sexually. It just ends in disaster, basically. Like, anytime we try, we'll intend to have sex. Like, we'll, like, start connecting, and then something will feel off. And however I bring that up will lead to conversation that becomes more and more emotional and heightened and heated and it will end in us both sobbing and no physical connection happens. And then at this point, I think we're just kind of avoiding that entirely because it feels so stuck and so pointless to keep trying in that vein. But that's awful too. Like, I feel like I understand the pattern. Like, I understand why we're both making these mistakes and I don't know how to not make them.

Esther Perel (11:14)

So tell me, because this wasn't always like that. Or, okay, it wasn't always that. So what is a little snapshot of sex between the two of us? The ons and offs? What's been the history? What's been glamorous and fun and glorious and blissful and what's been upsetting? And.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (11:44)

I think, I don't know, maybe I'll speak for myself because I want to hear from you too that, like, at the beginning especially, it was so, so much discovery. I remember I used to say, like, I didn't know I was in a box. I'm stepping out of this box that I didn't even know I was in. Having sex with men was fine. Well, it wasn't that great, but like, it could be fine. But having sex with a woman that I was in love with was extraordinary. I kept being more stretched out and more amazed at how good it felt. I remember crying a lot after orgasming, just being so overwhelmed by how happy I was. And I think then it got a little hard because there was like a disagreement of how much we wanted to have sex. But we went to therapy then and it got better.

Esther Perel (12:46)

What did you do there that was helpful?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (12:51)

I think the things we took from that, that we still use are like, it's always better when we are lighter. We're at our best when we're like having a good time and it's fun and it's playful.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (13:03)

Playful.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (13:03)

I think in sex it gets too easy to dive into the like, heady space and then we're like in a deep conversation and then it just gets so heavy and we don't know how to get out of it.

Esther Perel (13:16)

And when you go deep, where do you go? What exactly is it? The same conversation over and over.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (13:25)

In some aspects. And I feel like it's just like there's so many things that have like globbed onto it where it's like you are eight months pregnant and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby and you've had a lot of self body hatred that I think is, like, attached to it. And it gets really like, do you desire me? And also my body is changing and will continue to change. And then I think you have had a past assault experience that I think we had previously talked about, but I think in the last year, at least, how it is, like, risen to the surface more and that fear is much more present for you than previously. So sometimes, like, that comes up, you get upset because you are picking up on my energy of uncertainty or nervousness in what to do next. Your fear is that I don't want to be there, and you don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to be there. And so I think those, like, fears, everything else starts, like, raining down on them. And so then we're like having these conversations where we're pulling these apart, but they're kind of conversations we've had a lot. And then it's nine times out of ten gets to a place of, okay, we are connected again, but we always end that being like, why did we have to spend two hours going through that again?

Esther Perel (14:53)

Yep, that's a good summary.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (14:56)

And I think a lot of what I see as your fear is getting it wrong. And I've become so upset all the time that you are, like, very, very worried that you're getting it wrong.

Esther Perel (15:11)

And.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (15:11)

And then your touch becomes hesitant. And then I'm picking up on that and getting all wound up about that, which makes you more nervous and not feeling super connected to what you want, which is hard for you in the first place.

Esther Perel (15:27)

Okay. But you had a version of that a few years before you got pregnant and you went and sought help. And somebody said if you keep it light, you bring your playfulness into actually will keep you in the experience. And you were able to do it, which is really important. There's a part of you that feels like there's a timeliness to it now. You feel like, I've got a few more months of woman before mother, and then God knows what's going to happen to me.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (16:06)

Well, it's definitely feeling, like, pressure. It feels like we're running out of time. We wasted all this time not connecting.

Esther Perel (16:17)

Tell me a little bit about becoming pregnant. How was that and how much has that had an effect?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (16:26)

Yeah, that was part of the hardness of the last two years. It just took a while. We had to immediately go to the doctor to do it. We tried a bunch of times with increasing intervention and then finally did ivf and it was very expensive. And, you know, it was a lot of hormones. That made me crazy. Well, that IUI hormones that were terrible. Your whole life becomes revolving around this cycle. And you can't plan anything. You can't travel, and you can't. Yeah, so it sucked.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (17:10)

I think we were both feeling really alone in different ways during a lot of it and had a really hard time. Tried our best to empathize with each other, but it was really hard to fully see each other because I think we were going through such different things.

Esther Perel (17:30)

But can you have experiences where you feel more differentiated without that instantly meaning that you have to feel more lonely or alone?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (17:43)

Well, I'm not sure if this addresses what you're saying, but we were being so careful with each other. I am so empathic towards you. I know you're trying so hard. Like, you'd be, like, out of your mind, doing chores, working so hard, making sure that everything was operating well. And I'd be trying so hard to, like, regulate my emotions. So I wasn't taking things out on you. And we were just being, like, extremely polite to each other. We weren't connected, and it was kind of like roommates, almost, like, in a kind way, but very separate.

Esther Perel (18:25)

Welcome to marital formality.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (18:28)

Marital formality.

Esther Perel (18:32)

That's how I'm visualizing it as you describe it. But you experienced it because you were going through something different, I. E. You're pregnant. I'm not. You're doing the shots. I'm not. And this is like our first exercise where it's challenging for us to actually. That's what I mean by differentiated. Recognize this difference without it becoming distant and formal and isolating. So the question is, how do you both have things that, you know, the other person may not fully see without having this have bad consequences? Because what you describe sexually is kind of similar. I began to not know exactly what you want. And so I started to become so cautious. I don't want to do it wrong, whatever that means. And in effect, I become more disconnected from my own pleasure because I'm busy making sure you're okay. And it starts to become more caretaking than lovemaking. And when that caretaking takes place, we become emotionally entangled with each other, but we're not having fun. It kind of curtails the pleasure. We can be caring, we can be loving, but we're not able to actually let go, which is the foundation for being able to enjoy it.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (20:13)

Yeah, I think that sounds right. I feel like we've before realized, like, the fun, having fun together.

Esther Perel (20:23)

What you call light, I call fun. I'm talking. It's not just like fluffy fun. Yeah, because you've kind of highlighted the importance of the light, of the lightness. Right. This is the opposite of any conversation. Psychological, digging, plumbing, probing, responsible, loving, caring, but not able to. You can't do the two at the same time. When you bring to your sexuality a level of emotional responsibility and caretaking, you will block the erotic energy that is the playfulness that then becomes translated into sex. That means no talking anymore of that sort. After, before, unrelated, but not in that moment. Even if you have to stop, stop, put some music, stop, do some breathing, stop, do gentle touch. Don't start telling what's happening in your heads. Because you will go there because you're kind, loving, caring people. And you will think that you can't go back to the play until you've taken care of the bassinet. I want to clarify this a little bit, because of course there is responsibility and worry and care in love. It's when the burden of responsibility becomes excessive or overwhelming to the person. It's when the caretaking takes over that I begin to sense that the very ingredients that nurture love are sometimes the same ones that stifle desire. Because if you feel intensely responsible for the other person, you cannot let go. Letting go surrender is an experience of freedom and unselfconsciousness. If you're busy making sure the other person is okay, you cannot actually enter inside yourself to surrender. That doesn't mean that one has to become careless. It's a real gradation. And some people understand that there is a way in which they love that makes it harder for them to make love to the person they love. And this is what I think about when I listen to them. It's like the kind of connection that they are cultivating brings the emotional security that they need. But sometimes what makes us feel emotionally secure is not the same as what makes us feel sexually excited. And that's when they say the lightness is so important to them. Because the lightness means that we are being playful, mischievous, curious. And that lightness creates a certain differentiation, a certain space between them that then allows them to come close. It's difficult to go inside another. I'm not talking about orifices. I'm talking about the universe of another when you are already inside. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from osea. Skin care is self care, and OSEA wants to improve your nighttime ritual. And deliver softer, smoother, more radiant skin by morning. Osea's Dream Night Serum and Dream Night Cream are clinically tested formulas powered by Bioretinol and designed to reduce the visible effects of stress on skin while you sleep. I've been using the Face Dream Night Serum with Bioretinol and the Dream Night Cream for a few weeks now and I've really noticed how they both make my skin feel nourished and hydrated. And with the cold, dry air this winter, my skin needs all the moisture it can get. Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skincare from osea and right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your First Order sitewide with code ESTHER@OSEAMALIBOU.COM. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Babbel. Babbel is the language learning app that's back backed by science. No matter how you prefer to learn, whether that's by listening, speaking, reading or writing, Babbel can adapt to your style to keep you motivated. With Babbel you'll find personalized learning plans, real time feedback and progress tracking that will have you speaking a new language confidently in weeks. As I mentioned at the end of last year, I'd like to learn Polish and when I'm learning a new language, I go to a few basic words. Please Proce thank you and faithful to my interests. I love you, which is Cohamce. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com Esther get up to 55% off at babbel.com Esther Spelled b b a b b e l.com Esther Rules and restrictions may apply. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Masterclass. For just $10 a month billed annually, Masterclass gives you access to more than 200 of the world's greatest thinkers, artists and leaders. No matter how busy your schedule is, Masterclass is accessible. Listen to audio mode on your commute or during a workout, or watch from your phone, laptop or tv. I've been checking out the class of Jon Kabat Zinn on mindfulness and meditation. I was so glad to know that this course existed. Somehow I wasn't aware of it. And he's one of the first people to bring Mindfulness Meditation Stress Management based in Mindfulness Mindfulness to the west. And for decades I have been learning from him. So I'm very glad to see him on the roster of Masterclass and to be able to recommend this course to you right now. Our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com begin. That's 15% off@masterclass.com begin masterclass.com beginning.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (27:37)

But how. It seems like sometimes I have such a bad feeling. I'm so overwhelmed.

Esther Perel (27:47)

If you took her hand now, when you feel that overwhelmed, where would you put her hand? Because you were having a moment of it right now too, right? She's giving me something to do. It's more thing I need to do. I don't know how to get to it. I. I can't even consider the thought of it because I'm instantly overwhelmed by the idea that I can't do it. So. And where do you put her hand when you're overwhelmed? Okay. And then you want to lean your head in it. All right, Let it go. Let your head lean in her hands. And then stop checking to see how she's doing. Don't check. Is she okay? Is it okay? Am I asking too much? Am I too much? Stop thinking about her for a second if you can. Now you just went back to check on her. Stop checking on her. And what I just said, you can tell her too. Are you okay? Are you worried about yourself? No. All right. Let her know that you don't need that kind of caretaking in the moment.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (29:12)

It's okay. You don't have to worry about me right now.

Esther Perel (29:21)

Why did you take the hand off?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (29:24)

Because I wanted to be able to check in on her.

Esther Perel (29:32)

We're gonna have a little box for coins. And every time you go to check on her, you're gonna put coins in the box.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (29:41)

We'll be retired soon, huh? We'll have her retirement soon.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (29:51)

I don't know. It's like I feel like I already take up so much of the space being taken care of.

Esther Perel (30:01)

Could it be possible that when you actually stop, you take more space. If you take the hand, do it again. So you put your hand, put it on your face, right? And then you leaned your face on it. And then you can close your eyes if you want. That way, it may help you a little bit more to not be so focused on her. And then you realize imaginated. And I'm just going to stay with the sensation. I just need to bring me back in my body so I'm going to breathe. I'm going to use the hand because I'm resting on it and it just feels solid. And I can let the weight of my head lean on her. And that leaning brings a lot of trust. And safety. Because I'm not all alone. I'm just enjoying the feel of this hand. And by the way, you can move the hand because the whole effort for you is to not begin to try to think about any of this.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (31:09)

Just.

Esther Perel (31:10)

It's okay. We get taken out of our body and we go back in. And we go back in through touch, through breath, through movement, and that is how you keep this contained. How much of this have you been able to hear now?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (31:33)

I think a lot.

Esther Perel (31:35)

Tell me what you hear.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (31:39)

Well, that it really needs to be protected from the emotional digging. That that's very threatening to the space that it needs to be.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (31:58)

I think that feels really helpful when you're having a big emotional reaction. My instinct is to, like, guard myself. And that makes you want to check on me more.

Esther Perel (32:17)

What do you mean by guard?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (32:19)

Like, I get overwhelmed when I'm mad. When you're mad. Sometimes I get overwhelmed when you're so upset because you're so sad. It just, like, feels so bad to watch that. That I feel helpless and that I'm responsible and that I've caused this pain for you and don't want to sit in that bad feeling.

Esther Perel (32:44)

And this credit that you're giving yourself is true or manufactured by your very creative mind?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (32:55)

I think a little of both.

Esther Perel (32:58)

Give it to me.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (33:00)

You said it was 95% your fault the other day.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (33:04)

I did say it was 95% with great accuracy.

Esther Perel (33:07)

You are measuring the credit. Okay, well, you asked.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (33:12)

You asked for the percentage. I think some of it is, like, if I know I'm causing pain or, like, doing something you don't want. All I can do is try to fix these problems that I've caused.

Esther Perel (33:31)

Yeah, that it's like, where have you caused? Okay, you're starting to connect with each other. You're playing around. It's supposed to feel good.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (33:42)

What happens when she gets angry?

Esther Perel (33:45)

Yeah. Like, why suddenly anger and that you caused on top of it.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (33:51)

It's because, like, I touch her too lightly or in a way that she's picking up an energy that I am too nervous or don't want to be there. Or it's like this vibe shift that she picks up on that I am not always aware of. And so I think it takes me off guard where she's like, what's wrong?

Esther Perel (34:10)

That's the way you start communicating. What's wrong?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (34:13)

Well, previously, very useful. Well, I'm better. Yeah. I have expressed that's not a good way to reach me. But you are.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (34:22)

That's the basic.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (34:23)

But I think in this point?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (34:24)

Yeah, you.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (34:25)

It depends on the situation. Sometimes you're able to ask in a way that feels a lot better, but I think you usually are saying, like, something feels off. And I think I try to respond like, I'm here with you. I'm trying.

Esther Perel (34:43)

Oh, I'm trying. No, no, the trying is also off.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (34:49)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (34:49)

Okay. We gotta make a little list of the words that really are not helpful in this conversation.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (34:57)

And then if I try something else and it still doesn't feel right, then I think you get really upset. It escalates.

Esther Perel (35:06)

And if you were to ask her in that moment for something, do you say, pinch me? Do you say squeeze? Do you say harder? Do you ask for something? Or do you start to ask her what's wrong?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (35:21)

I mean, I think I sometimes ask for what I want. And when that doesn't feel good.

Esther Perel (35:30)

To whom?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (35:31)

Me. I get really upset. It's like describing what I want does not work to get what I want. And part of what seems like is missing is being with somebody who also wants that thing. I'm getting, like, somebody following instructions. And it's not fun or pleasurable for both of us. So then what's the point?

Esther Perel (36:02)

And do you have a kind of an instant despair, I'm never gonna be met?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (36:08)

I think that does happen a lot. Yeah.

Esther Perel (36:10)

Yeah.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (36:11)

Especially after, like, not being able to communicate what I want for so long at this point with her. Yeah.

Esther Perel (36:25)

There's a lot that's being said here, but one thought is sexual frustration. It has a meanness to it. It has an edge. A person I once worked with described that when they have that kind of sexual frustration, it's like the baby that can't find the nipple. Either they instantly get it or they get a little frustrated just trying to gauge and find that nipple. But if they can't find it and if they can't latch onto it, and if they can't instantly feel good, they're thrown off into a total state of despair and cry. It's not just the actual hunger. It's also the emotional being met. And she says it. She says it in an adult language, but she points at something that is very young and very primary.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (37:25)

It's all me and my desires that's driving everything. And then I have made it almost impossible for you to share and be connected to your desires. But now there's no fun.

Esther Perel (37:37)

So.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (37:37)

So there's none of your desires there.

Esther Perel (37:42)

So if you want to say something, you cannot wait till she's done.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (37:48)

Oh, that's tough.

Esther Perel (37:51)

This is true. In words. This is true in sex.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (37:55)

Yeah. I think I give you a lot of space to be mad at me or to like. Yeah, express everything. I think especially if, like, you've been saying that you're trying to communicate something and I'm not understanding it. It feels like, okay, well, I gotta give her, like, a lot of space to try to, like, explain herself and feel understood and feel that I'm getting it.

Esther Perel (38:17)

Okay. And that hasn't worked too great.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (38:20)

Yeah. Okay, no more talking.

Esther Perel (38:24)

So I watched this.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (38:27)

That's what I've been saying all along.

Esther Perel (38:28)

She continues. And the more you try to make yourself available and good listener at the end, you'll disconnect from yourself. So the very thing that she's hoping won't happen is what she's colluding with you to create. Unfortunately, you have got to stop her sooner. Nicely, kindly. The bigger you become, the better. It will be.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (38:58)

My nightmare.

Esther Perel (39:02)

I thought I'm offering you an offer you can't refuse. You think it's your nightmare. Sometimes people mean to do something really well, kind. I'm going to give you the space to explain yourself to me. But in the process, I'm going to be so focused on you that I'm going to end up losing me. And by losing me, you actually are not going to appreciate how much focus I put on you. You're going to be angry that I come to you and that I have lost my own identity, my own sovereignty, my own autonomy, my own desire, my own needs. Because I'm all totally focused on you. All of that in the name of love. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for where should we Begin? Comes from Monarch. The way things are going, there are probably plenty of things to keep you up at night. But don't let your finances be one of them. Instead, try Monarch. Set yourself up for financial success this year. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life. Budgeting, accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this year and get 50% off your monarch subscription With Code Begin. Set yourself up for financial success in 2026 with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes proactive money management simple all year long. Use code beginonarch.com for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first year@monarch.com with code begin. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Shopify. The early days of starting a business are equal parts exciting and terrifying. It's a big risk, but it's one worth taking as long as you have the right tools. And if e commerce is part of your new business, here's a Shopify Shopify is the commerce platform that powers millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US they can help you tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Esther go to shopify.comester that's shopify.com Esther.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (42:02)

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Esther Perel (42:04)

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Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (42:09)

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Esther Perel (42:13)

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Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (42:16)

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Esther Perel (42:33)

This is probably true in many aspects of your relationships. You have to grow. You have to take more space in the good sense of the word. You met someone who is the best teacher you can get in that department because she can take, she expands. The more room you give her, the more she will feel it. There's nothing bad about that. But part of the attraction is for you to then learn some of that where she will learn from you. That you don't have to say it six times. Or that if you ask for a certain touch and you don't get it immediately, that doesn't mean that you are forever condemned in the kingdom of never being met. That you will forever, you know, be too much and not be met. So this is a kind of a misses too much and misses too little. What would you want in those moments if you could rewrite that script?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (43:38)

Like what I wish would happen or.

Esther Perel (43:41)

What you're going to make happen.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (43:46)

I think stopping you from going down that path.

Esther Perel (43:49)

How are you gonna do it?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (43:53)

Just saying you don't have to go down that road right now.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (43:57)

Stay here.

Esther Perel (43:58)

You say this with a little bit more conviction.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (44:06)

Yes, but it's hard. You don't have to go down that road right now. Is that better?

Esther Perel (44:15)

I felt slightly better though.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (44:18)

It didn't negates it. Okay, cut that out.

Esther Perel (44:21)

You will do it until you feel. I got it, I got it. It's not so much in the words as it will be in the power of your voice, in the conviction and in the. I know that I'm doing something good for us, even if she's not there yet.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (44:38)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (44:39)

You have something available at that moment that she doesn't have.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (44:45)

Why does it feel so hard?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (44:50)

I don't know. It's almost like counterintuitive to like tell you to stop, to not give you the space to go down a dark hole. That's actually what you need.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (45:05)

Yeah. A container, not space. Not let me grow indefinitely.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (45:12)

You have to be the genie living in a bottle.

Esther Perel (45:18)

If you do this with her, you will have changed something fundamental about your childhood too.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (45:27)

Probably gotta do that too.

Esther Perel (45:28)

Do you understand? You see this?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (45:31)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (45:32)

You had these chaotic people. They expanded. They took up all the space. You shrunk, you went downstairs. The idea was my role is to make sure that I think about everybody else and I let them expand and take the least amount of space possible. And that was very self protective and very useful. But when you do that with her, the reality is different. And she's very clearly telling you, I need. In this case, the more you rise, the more balanced the relationship will become. The more balanced the relationship will become, the more you can connect to your own desires. The more you connect to your own desires, the more she will have someone that she can bounce against. Because you can't let go in front of someone who collapses. You can only let go when this person has confidence. If you're too scared or too fragile, then the other person holds back the whole time too. And that is exactly what happens sexually too.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (46:48)

I believe it.

Esther Perel (46:51)

Does that make sense?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (46:54)

Yeah, it does. How does it happen now?

Esther Perel (47:03)

I just want to try something with you. Come. Which one wants to start?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (47:14)

Me.

Esther Perel (47:15)

Okay, take your hand. Just start walking.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (47:20)

This way.

Esther Perel (47:22)

And this walking, you can call it like collaborate. So you know, you're collaborating, you're walking, you're. You're collaborating. And now I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say resist. Resist. You're gonna have to pull a little more. Yes. And passive. Totally passive. And resist.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (47:53)

No fair.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (47:54)

Using two hands.

Esther Perel (47:57)

And passive. And collaborate. So this enactment, it's an exploration around different power positions. One person is leading, the other person is following. They hold hands and one person walks across the room. This was in our offices here in the studios. And in the first iteration, I guide you and you are collaborating. Collaborate. So it's a fairly equal position. We both have decision making. We Share the direction, so to speak. In the second one, you resist, resist, resist. And instantly you hear the intensity shift. There is an energy in the body. There is a playfulness that sits in, because resistance in playful mode is intensely fun. If I pull your hand and you keep pulling me and we pull in opposite directions, we have this tension, we have this force that is created. But you can only resist something that is trying to pull you. We with equal or stronger power. That is exactly what we are describing and exploring, sexually speaking as well. The third stance is the passivity. And the passivity, you know, for some people, it's a treat to have somebody who just follows them around a passive sweet puppy with no intentionality of their own. And for other people, it's really a terrible experience to pull dead meat. So the exploration of these stances sheds a lot of light on the dynamics between people in relationships. So what was it like to lead and to be led?

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (49:45)

My favorite one was leading when the other person resists.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (49:50)

That's no fair, though.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (49:52)

It felt very fun. It felt more fun to drag you around resisting because we were playing and you had a lot of intention, like we were playing a game. Passive was the worst. The collaboration was just like, this is nice to hold my wife's hand and walk around. Passive was boring. And resisting was fun.

Esther Perel (50:28)

Yes. Here's what I saw. I saw you bend and get close to the ground to master your strength and then to see what she got. So you probably felt that you had to build her strength.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (50:48)

Yeah, that's probably right. I think sometimes it feels like I am responsible for both of us.

Esther Perel (50:59)

For drawing her out.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (51:01)

Yeah.

Esther Perel (51:01)

Mm.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (51:04)

And for explaining to her what she needs to do for me. And so I feel she's not rising to the occasion because I still have to explain it.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (51:15)

Like, I'm not being that firm.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (51:19)

Yeah. Or it's like, if I still have to generate it, I'm like, be strong for me. Like, I can't ask that. It takes away what it means for you to be strong.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (51:33)

So then it doesn't count to you.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (51:36)

Or just still lies in my responsibility.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (51:40)

You can't let go then, Right?

Esther Perel (51:42)

Correct. Or you. That's the piece of control in sexuality that involves letting go. You cannot fully let go if you don't experience the sturdiness of the other person.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (52:02)

So we both have to be sturdy and also let go. Yeah.

Partner 2 (possibly the more expressive partner) (52:08)

I think it's hard for me to believe that when I'm leaning fully on you that you're enjoying it. When I ask if you're enjoying it. And you say, yes, I don't believe you.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (52:25)

I mean, it feels painful to hear you say that. I think I don't always know how to respond because it feels like if you already don't believe me, how else can I explain it to make you believe me?

Esther Perel (52:42)

You take it upon you, if she doesn't believe you, it's your problem. That's not necessarily the case. If she doesn't believe you, that may be her challenge. That says more about how she thinks about herself or feels about herself maybe, than even how she feels about you. I wouldn't be so quick to personalize it. On occasion, you enjoy. When there's no chaos. That is enough for you to feel like you're enjoying. For her, enjoying is claiming. And that is going to be the opportunity that this relationship offers you to.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (53:25)

Learn how to do that and to.

Esther Perel (53:27)

Value it, to appreciate it. Not just to learn, but to have it be something that enlightens and enlivens the relationship.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (53:37)

Yeah, I think it's like we both are sometimes trying to take care of the other too intensely and then have a hard time connecting in that. And it's like something so simple as going back to like touching each other with the trust that like we know we're trying to care for each other, that exists, but like fully letting go into that. It seems simple, but we don't do it.

Esther Perel (54:10)

This is taking and receiving. You have primary verbs. There's seven verbs around sex, but in relationships too. But asking. Can you ask? Do you ask each other? Do you ask what you like? Do you know how to ask? Do you know what to ask for? Do you feel comfortable asking? Giving. You like to give. Do you give when you try to do it right? Do you give with ease? Do you give because you love to be generous and you love to know that you're the one who can give this. Do you give because you're afraid that you owe and that you're trying to acquit from your debt? There's lots of positive and more challenging things around giving. Same with receiving. For many people, receiving is the hardest, sexually speaking, for sure. And if you have negative self talk around your body, it will be harder. It's not harder to receive when she does it right. But when she doesn't do it right, you will instantly personalize it. So you each have your ways of personalizing. So you have asking, giving, receiving, taking, then you have sharing, then you have playing or imagining, and then you have refusing. And you can ask yourself, which is the verb that I need to practice? More, which is the one that comes easy for me, which would I like to bolster a little bit. And they are all translated somatically in the body. One of the most important balances equilibrium in a relationship is how do I stay connected with you without disconnecting from me? How do I stay connected with myself without disconnecting from you? And I am looking at the relational patterns at the dance here. One woman who is unbounded and one woman who is slightly walled off, one who takes up a lot of space and one who constantly effaces herself. And this very dynamic of I make sure to tell people what I need so they will know how to behave toward me. What she doesn't say in the beginning of the is that when she does that over time, she also doesn't believe that when they do it, they actually mean it. And the wife basically tries so hard to respond to the needs of her partner that in effect she has no idea what she wants and she's back at the stage that she was when they first met. I was someone who had been so overwhelmed in this chaotic household and I learned to not have much needs of anything. And here I find myself meeting someone who is an excellent teacher for expressing one's needs. She does it all the time. But in effect, we have now recreated the very dynamic that we were both trying to get out of. And it's playing itself out in all aspects of our relationship, especially sexually. Where should we begin with esther perel is produced by magnificent noise. We're part of the vox media podcast network in partnership with new york magazine and the cut.

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (57:44)

Our production staff includes eric newsom, destry.

Esther Perel (57:47)

Sibley, sabrina farhi, kristen muller and julian attorney. Original music and additional production by paul schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin?

Partner 1 (possibly the more reserved partner) (57:58)

Are esther perel and jessie baker. We'd also like to thank courtney hamilton.

Esther Perel (58:03)

Mary alice miller and jack saul.