← Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
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- [00:01]
Esther Perel
Recently on Where Should We Begin? We've been focusing on secrets, the stuff we push under the rug, conversations that we are allowed to have, and certainly not in the public square, the forbidden, the hidden, the obfuscated, the unexplored, the unarticulated. And one such topic is the subject of erotic fantasies, especially erotic fantasies of women. The book that very much opened up this subject in my generation was Nancy Friday, My Secret Garden. The book that is now on many people's shelf is by Gillian Anderson, who's an award winning film and television and theater actor. But she became very much a household name in my house for sure when she played sex therapist Dr. Jean Milburn on the Netflix series Sex Education. And her book is called Want. It's an exploration of hundreds of anonymous women who have sent in the scripts, the descriptions of their own erotic longings, of their sexual imaginings. And one of them is actually by Gillian Anderson herself. So I wanted to have a conversation about the power of fantasy, the intricacy, the irrationality, the secret logic of the erotic mind, because it actually is one of the most fascinating parts of our mind and our bodies is how we conjure up those fantasies, those plots, those sensations, those elixirs that are all meant to heighten pleasure and excitement. Sexual fantasies are sometimes so counter intuitive in some ways, so counter to our conscience, to the way we see ourselves, to our values, that they can baffle us. So we talk together about how we make sense of what we call sexual fantasies, how we come to understand them, how culturally bound they are, how we don't always want to experience them in real life for sure, and what it means when fantasy is as if it's play, it's pretend, but it's a powerful production in our mind. So I'm inviting you into my office to meet me and Gillian Anderson as we talk about sexual fantasies of women. Support for where should we begin? Comes from. Autograph Collection Hotels Autograph Collection hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences. From medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com Botox Cosmetic Adabotulinum Toxin, a FDA approved for over 20 years. So talk to your specialist to see if Botox Cosmetic is right for you. For full prescribing information, including boxed warning, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com.
- [04:10]
Gillian Anderson
Women who are reading the book are starting to ask themselves, am I getting what I want sexually with my partner in our relationship or my multiple partners or whatever their life circumstances are at that particular moment? And if they're observing their feelings around it, around the thought of asking for.
- [04:36]
Esther Perel
It, meaning do I dare to ask.
- [04:39]
Gillian Anderson
For what I do I dare to.
- [04:41]
Esther Perel
Ask for what I want and do I know?
- [04:42]
Gillian Anderson
And if I do, I know, Do I dare to ask if I don't know why, if I don't dare to ask why, if I do dare to ask, but I'd rather not waste time, not bothered. It's too complicated. We've tried. It didn't work, you know, but it just opens up the conversation. And women are also starting as they are engaging with the stories in the book. You know, you get quite a lot from the women who have written in. It's not just the fantasy. It is, I've been married for 40 years, he hasn't touched me for 30, you know, or whatever. Or I am in a lesbian relationship for all intents and purposes, but my fantasies are always about me. Men, you know, just there's a lot of variation. And you get women are really identifying with the human beings riding in and identifying with particular aspects of their real lives, their needs, their desires, the complexities of both the fantasy, the desire and the status quo. And so it's just bringing up a lot of questions. And it's also, I've heard from a lot of women that they're making life changes because of what the book is bringing up. Right.
- [06:17]
Esther Perel
Because I think what I was thinking when I was reading is you get, first of all, a theory of desire. How is female desire constituted? And multiple ways, it's not just one way, but how is it articulated? And when I say desire, I define it as to own the wanting. But that's one piece. But I think the bigger piece that I have always thought about and that I find confirmed here is that fantasies are not just sexual scripts or sexual enhancements and turn ons. Fantasies actually reveal you at your most bare and they tell truths about you that are hard to get at otherwise. And they reveal not just what you want sexually, but actually what you really want emotionally and psychologically.
- [07:13]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [07:14]
Esther Perel
And once you understand that it is a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs, wishes, fears, aspirations, Rather than just play sex, then it reveals you in a way that is irresistible. Once you find yourself with a huge gap between the permissible and the possible, then you cannot stay in your seat.
- [07:40]
Gillian Anderson
No. And you can't unsee that. You can't.
- [07:42]
Esther Perel
Let's.
- [07:43]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah, yeah. I think that's what people are finding.
- [07:47]
Esther Perel
And I always said to my students, I say, don't ask people what they do. Ask them what they think about while they're doing it. That's interesting, because what they do, okay, they'll describe. We go this, we start, we do that. But what they think about with their partners, not when they're in the fantasy itself, but what is it that they're actually thinking about? And who are they thinking about? And what is the creative resource of a fantasy? I mean, fantasies are. Are enormously creative and imaginative plots coded, and they can heal you and they can repair and they can compensate and they can transform. I mean, they are that powerful. Because a good fantasy states the problem and offers the solution. Right. If in my fantasy, I'm irresistible, you know, I may often find that in my real life I'm slightly more insecure and not so booked. If in my real life I have a hard time asking for what I want, I can set up a fantasy where I'm with someone who knows exactly what I want. I don't even have to ask. I don't even have to know because they know better than me. It states the problem and it offers the solution.
- [09:08]
Gillian Anderson
Can someone learn to fantasize? Can it be learned? Is it a learned.
- [09:13]
Esther Perel
Yes. Like, I think that if people read stories here, they will have some stories. They say, I'm curious about that. What would that be? Or suddenly they find themselves, you know, moist, titillated, aroused, and they say. And they suddenly have to notice that that actually speaks to them. In others, they feel, ew, gross. Crush. You know, don't want to touch that. So it's a little bit like standing in front of a buffet and deciding which foods, which tastes, which textures, which smells appeal to you. And then from there it opens up inside of you. Fantasies are kind of the combination of your personal history and the broad collective sweep of the cultural imagination. So a lot of fantasies, you watch them in movies and you say, ah. You don't even. It's not consciously, but you register. This is a beautiful moment where this person experiences something at the hands of this other person. Sometimes you read and then you realize, you know, the next time around when you are pleasing yourself you're actually going back to that thing that you read back then. Most fantasies are discovered, stumbled upon or learned.
- [10:35]
Gillian Anderson
What percentage of fantasies have roots in childhood experience in some way? Are most of our fantasies linked back to something that's happened? Either a first love or a trauma or a. You know, there's.
- [10:52]
Esther Perel
Because many, but I don't think it's. It's very broad. Yes. You can have experiences in childhood of delight, of play. And you remember of biking, of sitting on a horse, of paddling, of sitting on your granddad's lap, or your father's, your mother's lap. Would. Lots of. It's not just trauma, but for instance.
- [11:17]
Gillian Anderson
There are a few fantasies, or at least in the initial submissions there were a few fantas, women imagining having sex while wearing a diaper, a nappy.
- [11:28]
Esther Perel
Yes. Because it's been 20 years, I've been kind of tracking this subject. The erotic mind, the erotic imagination and its amazing ability to do a lot of things. It's unique because most other fantasies, if I say I want to go to Paris, my fantasies to travel to Paris, I would like to make Paris happen. But sexual fantasies often exist as a realm of experience that transcends the restrictions, the boundaries, your sense of self, your self image, your moral and ideological convictions. It's the transgressive nature of it that is so powerful and not your desire to want to experience it in reality. Many of our fantasies we would never want to experience in reality. And that's the opposite of most other fantasies that we have, most of the things that we imagine. So how is it that in our mind, alone or with someone, we can create absolute delight and flight of fancy about things that would make us cringe in real life.
- [12:49]
Gillian Anderson
So I guess what I'm understanding is that the growth or the healing around fantasy is not necessarily about finding a way to enact what is in one's mind. It's more about finding a way to learn from, as you were saying before, what your real needs, desires, and what the solution is to those feelings. Whether it's about insecurity or whether it's about needing at the end of the day to be held, or whether it's about, you know, that one investigates the fantasy for deeper truths about oneself as a healing path to that, as opposed to the healing path being a reenactment of it in some way.
- [13:43]
Esther Perel
And it's not always healing. Sometimes it's just fun, right? It's excitement. I mean, the primary purpose of a fantasy is to intensify excitement and arousal and pleasure.
- [13:53]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [13:54]
Esther Perel
Yeah, let's be very, very clear. That is the. Its main function.
- [13:58]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [13:58]
Esther Perel
It's. What more can I add, you know? And sometimes it's enacted, sometimes it doesn't need to be enacted because it's enacted in my mind. But the interesting piece about erotic fantasies is that they often include many feelings and experiences that do not get processed so easily in other parts of our lives. You talk about the diaper. Infantile needs and wishes are very big in our fantasy world. Jealousy, possessiveness, revenge, power exchange, total surrender, passivity. I mean, there are many feelings that we would not want to experience those in. I don't want to feel jealous in real life, but in my fantasy, if that jealousy becomes an elixir.
- [14:56]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah, it's fun. Yeah.
- [14:58]
Esther Perel
It's playful. It's pretend. It's a great theater. I mean, as an actress, it's really, you know, the world of fantasy is a theater.
- [15:08]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [15:09]
Esther Perel
You perform the play or you read the play or you imagine the play, but it is a theater. And it's extremely important for people to understand the pretend nature of it because that's what helps with the discomfort, the shame, the guilt, the embarrassment. And people have to understand that fantasy is play, but because it reveals them to themselves, they often think, oh, what does that say about me that I am imagining something like that? Why are the infantile wishes so prevalent? Because for many people, it's a time when they felt very secure. When it is about the wrapped, warm, peeing in the diaper. Felt it was very warm. It was, you know, being held, being cleaned. There's a lot of, for many people, positive associations with being rocked, being held, being sued. And so what we have a capacity to do is to eroticize those needs, wishes, aspirations, experiences, and turn them into erotic material, basically sexual, sexually enhancing material. And I don't think anybody has ever fully understood how this works and why we do this. And do other mammals have them? Everybody has a sexuality, but not everybody has an erotic life. And the central agent of eroticism is our imagination.
- [16:41]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah. Yes.
- [16:42]
Esther Perel
It's this and not that. Yeah. But for many women, I just say sometimes it's the time of day, it's the weather, it's the temperature. It's things that have nothing to do with plot and accoutrements and toys. It's just anything that enhances the experience. You don't have to think about it as an elaborate script.
- [17:06]
Gillian Anderson
Sure. One of the questions that came up early with journalists and promoting the book was about the fact that we included, you know, a chapter called Captive and That we discussed. Yeah. I mean, I know for myself a number of women who have very violent fantasies. And it was important to me that the book included those because they're true and women have them. And I wanted to ask you about that just in terms of. I mean, as you said a minute ago, that, you know, a woman would never necessarily want that to actually happen.
- [17:50]
Esther Perel
No, I've never seen a woman who.
- [17:51]
Gillian Anderson
Wants a splash to happen. Yeah, but the fantasy of a level of violence, not sure. Some may be rooted in trauma. But if it's not, then what?
- [18:07]
Esther Perel
Yeah, it may be.
- [18:10]
Gillian Anderson
It may be.
- [18:12]
Esther Perel
And when it is, I think it's always important to ask the question, is it repetition or repair? Because sometimes it's repair. I reclaim it. I have turned this story into my own story because of fantasy. You are the author, you are the character. You are the playwright. You know, you're the performer. You have every role in it. You're the director. And nobody makes you do anything you don't want to do, even if the plot is that somebody is making you do something. But that's the plot you're writing.
- [18:44]
Gillian Anderson
Exactly.
- [18:45]
Esther Perel
So I think that forced seduction has. Look, people have been delving into it and trying to understand it, and I prefer to call it that, and rape fantasies and all of that. But to me, there's something very ingenious about the forced seduction fantasy, and it's this. For most of history, women could never claim their sexual wants. And so what did they do in their imagination? Sometimes they created someone who made them do everything they wanted, but that they couldn't ask for, because de facto, if I write the story, it's everything I want. Yes, yes, but you're making me do it, so I never have to say that's what I wanted. I just did it because they wanted me to. They made me. And it was such an ingenious way to be able to experience pleasure and excitement without having to claim it and own it and bear the responsibility of it.
- [19:48]
Gillian Anderson
Surely today that's not the same. You would hope.
- [19:51]
Esther Perel
But I think that the power of the fantasy is actually. You know, often there is a sense today that people, the more power they have in life, the more sometimes they fantasize about being able to surrender that power. To not have to be responsible, to not have to take care of everything, make decisions. Look, when the force, seduction, you don't make a decision. There is another person who makes you do things, and he makes you do exactly everything that you've decided you wanted them to make you do. Yes. And you never hurt. Let's be very, very clear. Nobody hurts in a fantasy, even if the fantasy is violent. You experience pleasure?
- [20:35]
Gillian Anderson
Yes.
- [20:36]
Esther Perel
Some people, when it is repetition, when it is a sense that they can only come, or they can only climax, or they can only get aroused, if it re evokes the sense of fear or the sense of dread or the sense of danger, then we sometimes think, is this really just plain fun? Or is there something here of a trauma reenactment that is being played out that should be examined? Can this person experience the same kind of pleasure in a different script? Or is there a rigidity attached to it? And now it has become fixed and it's fetishized and this is the way I come and this is the way I like it.
- [21:17]
Gillian Anderson
Interesting.
- [21:22]
Esther Perel
We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Masterclass. There's often a lot of pressure to find the right gift for our loved ones. But this holiday season, why not give them a gift with the potential to last a lifetime with Masterclass? Masterclass is the streaming platform that brings invaluable insights from the world's greatest minds straight to you. Plus, there's no risk. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Personally, I'm interested in trying an all New Feminism masterclass featuring Gloria Steinem, Adrienne Marie Brown, Tina Chen and Amanda Nguyen. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com begin for the current offer. That's up to 50% off@masterclass.com begin masterclass.com begin support for where Should We Begin Comes from Babbel. Many of us, particularly those of us who come from immigrant backgrounds, know what it's like to have a language barrier between loved ones. Perhaps you have a grandparent you'd love to have a connection with, but you only know how to say hello and I love you. There's never been a better time to learn a new language, especially if you choose Babbel. Babbel is a science backed language learning app designed by real people for real conversations. Now I have been trying to convince my husband of that because I, after so many decades together, would love for his French to improve so that I don't have to continuously guess does he understand it or not? I would like for him to actually speak it. So Babbel, I'm turning to you for French with my husband. Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for you at babbel.com Esther get up to 60% off at babbel.com Esther Spelled b a b b e l.com Esther Rules and restrictions may apply. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Shopify. Some say we are living in an attention economy, or maybe we should say an attention deficit economy. That means if you're a business owner, half the battle is getting your product in front of potential customers. And the other half of the battle is making it as easy as possible for the customers to actually buy your product. And for that, you might want to try Shopify. Shopify is the online commerce platform that makes it easy to buy and sell. According to Shopify, businesses that use their shop pay feature see conversions up to 50%, meaning way less cards going abandoned and way more sales going forward. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. You can sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com estaire all lowercase. You can go to shopify.com estair to upgrade your selling today. That's shopify.com Esther.
- [24:59]
Gillian Anderson
A couple years ago, someone brought a study to my attention that was referring to a predominance of postmenopausal women turning to bdsm.
- [25:13]
Esther Perel
In what capacity?
- [25:15]
Gillian Anderson
To the degree that suddenly, as a postmenopausal woman, for the first time in their lives, they were enjoying or going after bondage scenarios in a way that maybe I was curious whether you'd ever come across that. My question was if that were true, that a lot of women or a greater proportion of women who are through or going through menopause are interested in BDSM than younger women. What is that related to? I had some thoughts just in terms of going through a stage in life where you're feeling so completely out of control of what's happening in your body and to your body, that something about the power scenario within BDSM was satisfying or feeling like there was a taking ownership of not just one's output, but also what's happening to that you are in control or that you declare control in that relationship. I was wondering whether you had come across that at all.
- [26:22]
Esther Perel
No, I have not. Not as in postmenopause. But also I would probably have a different reading. I mean, BDSM is not just. And these are heterosexual women, bisexual women, pansexual women.
- [26:39]
Gillian Anderson
I don't know what the study was. I was assuming that it was across the board.
- [26:43]
Esther Perel
Right. I think that I had a number of thoughts when you were asking the Question. I mean, one is for many women, sexuality in a long term relationship, I would say now more in heterosexual context, but I'm not sure it's exclusive to that. It's not usually the most interesting. For a lot of women it's often penis in a vagina, it's often a five minute drive by. It's not necessarily the kind of attention that they would like to have. Bondage makes somebody pay an enormous amount of attention to you and you have to do nothing and you don't have to take care of anybody and you don't have to be responsible and you don't have to make decisions. And this is a dream for many women, working women, caring women for others, young ones, old ones, partners, you name it. And I think a lot of the fantasies of women are often about either being able to want everything exactly as they want or not to have to make any decision about what they want because the fantasy comes to replace the social role. I have a thing that I often describe that I see primarily in straight couples. I see many male partners who tell me nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on. And you say loving, caring, nice, cares about the pleasure of their partner, etc. I have yet to hear a straight woman tell me that in my office about her male partner.
- [28:23]
Gillian Anderson
Interesting.
- [28:24]
Esther Perel
Nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on. It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant what he's experiencing. If she's not feeling anything, if she's not feeling anything, he can be standing there with a major erection right next to her. It won't turn her on, it will not do anything to her.
- [28:43]
Gillian Anderson
Interesting.
- [28:43]
Esther Perel
What turns her on, it's what's happening to her.
- [28:46]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [28:48]
Esther Perel
And in order for that to happen, she needs to be able to completely focus on herself. And many of the fantasies are set up so that she can focus entirely on herself and not worrying about the well being of others, on caring for them, on feeling responsible for them, all of that, that kind of narcissistic investment in the very positive sense of the word is essential to connect her with her erotic self. I am free, which is what a fantasy is a script for. I am sovereign means I am not responsible, worried, caring for anyone else's well being. At this moment, I'm thinking about me for a change. Bondage offers that submission offers that fantasy in general. Fantasy in general. But you were asking me about bdsm. I think if you're not able to experience so fluidly spontaneous arousal, desire, and you are more in an entrance to your sexuality that has to do with willingness. I'm willing. I'm open. It's not like I'm turned on. I'm not excited, I'm not aroused. I don't yet have any desire. But I'm open to see what will happen. Fantasy becomes ever more important in postmenopause because if it's not coming from the body, it will come from the mind, from our imagination. So that's where I think that a good story, a good plot can do wonders.
- [30:28]
Gillian Anderson
Interesting. I have a couple more questions.
- [30:31]
Esther Perel
Yeah, me too. I have one for you now because I think one of the things that you do and that I do in where should we begin? So I do sessions that are anonymous. Your stories were collected anonymously. You inserted one of you anonymously in the book. Wand and the assumption is there is a freedom that we feel when we can reveal ourselves through our fantasies in an anonymous way.
- [31:02]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [31:03]
Esther Perel
What did you learn about this? Anonymity.
- [31:07]
Gillian Anderson
Anonymity. I have to imagine that, you know, I did a book reading last night and a woman came up while I was signing and said that she wrote a particular one in the book. And I was so. It's the first person that I had met, a real human being who had written. And I was so, you know, obviously grateful to her and amazed that she felt free and courageous enough for me to, you know, take a picture of her with the book and the fantasy. And I have imagined that many, many women did it purely because it was anonymous. And had it not been, and had we asked for more detail, that they would have been much shyer or maybe would not have sent them in at all. And that's even Western. I'm not even thinking about women. In countries where fantasy is illegal, you know, various forms of imagination even would be considered punishable. And certainly for the one that I put in myself, I was grateful for the anonymity of the book.
- [32:12]
Esther Perel
Has anyone identified you?
- [32:14]
Gillian Anderson
I mean, if they did, I would not. I mean, I think it's important that mine remains anonymous.
- [32:20]
Esther Perel
I think it's beautiful idea that you did it, that you threw yourself in the lot, so to speak. He said, I'm one of yours.
- [32:27]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [32:27]
Esther Perel
I'm not just a collector of your stories. I'm part of the stories. And you swim with the fish.
- [32:34]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah, it was hard. I was really surprised at how challenging I found it. Not even the fact that I was going to be handing it to somebody else or that it, you know, but the writing down particular words all of a sudden felt. I keep thinking dirty, which on the one hand. I feel like I'm. I'm not particularly square. I feel like I can hear anything and say anything. But there was something about the act of writing it down that felt much more pornographic than the visuals or the, you know, than my imagination, which was interesting. I found that interesting.
- [33:13]
Esther Perel
Did the fact that you wrote your own change how you read the ones from the others?
- [33:19]
Gillian Anderson
It made me be much more impressed by the courage that it took for women to write in. Yeah.
- [33:30]
Esther Perel
And did you write it in the beginning?
- [33:33]
Gillian Anderson
No, I wrote it at the end. I kept putting it off. And then a couple times I tried to write it while I was on airplanes and I found that I was too paranoid about people, that I couldn't do that. And then eventually I just sat myself down and did it.
- [33:55]
Esther Perel
We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we Begin comes from Bombas. It's not uncommon for me to hear couples describe how one of them typically likes to put their cold feet on the other one's warm body. And that's where Bombas comes in. They have made the coziest and most giftable socks of the season, so you don't have to put your freezing feet on each other. Bumba socks are made with premium fabrics to guarantee that they'll be the warmest, comfiest pair in your drawer, like long staple cotton and merino wool. I've tried Bombaz myself. From compression socks to small socks to exercise socks to the slippers, I have actually quite a bunch of them. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombaz donates one to someone experiencing housing insecurity. So, ready to feel good and do good? Head over to bombaz.com esther and use code ESTHER for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O m b a s.com estair code esther at checkout. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Mint Mobile. We've all been there. You're expecting one price and when the time comes to pay, oops, there's an extra fee. Well, with Mint Mobile, when they say you'll pay $15 a month, they mean it all Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even keep your own phone and your same phone number. Our producer, Jessie Baker, ended up trying Mint Mobile with her teenage daughter. And Jessie loves the affordable price point, which makes it a great option for her family to get this new customer offer and your new 3 month premium wireless plan for just 15amonth. Go to mintmobile.com begin that's mintmobile.com begin cut your wireless bill to 15amonth at mintmobile.com begin 45 upfront payment is required equivalent to 15amonth. No customers on first 3 month planned. Only speeds slower above 40gb on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. Siemint Mobile for details Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Autograf Collection Hotels Autograph Collection hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Every hotel in this collection is in inspired by a clear vision and a story that makes it individual and special. Guests are offered unforgettable experiences that leave a lasting imprint. From practicing medieval falconry on an Irish country estate to exploring ancient Costa Rican mangroves to tasting volcanic wines on the Greek island of Santorini. Hands selected for their inherent craft and distinct perspective, each hotel tells its own unique story through immersive design. Whether inspired by the horse and mule barns of Texas or the 13th century monasteries of Prague, there's something for everyone. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable@autographcollection.com we fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you and the conversations that I have with couples. Start off as three hour sessions and then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to then add the notes and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life. Where Should We Begin Involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw, intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time consuming effort to create where should we Begin? And which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours and how it has helped you and that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help and you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my office hours subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to where should we Begin? Gives you an ad free version of these sessions and all the Esther callings. And more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness to work conflicts to infidelity to secrets to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals to ending relationships. And we offer follow ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the where should we begin show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours. Is it only or primarily for women or people who identify as women?
- [40:51]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [40:51]
Esther Perel
Or can for everyone?
- [40:53]
Gillian Anderson
Absolutely.
- [40:54]
Esther Perel
Like, can I learn about myself by understanding and by reading you? That should be able to be translated to any gender and any.
- [41:04]
Gillian Anderson
Exactly. And I mean, it was important to me that we asked only women for this particular book to descend in fantasies. I have heard from many men how much they're learning from reading it, obviously. And this. What's bizarre is this never occurred to me because I was really only initially doing this for women, but men, you know, buying it to be turned on and. But it's. It is for everybody. And men. A couple of men have said that they're buying it for their daughters, for their teenage daughters. One said to counterbalance the toxic masculinity that's out there, to have other ideas out there about what is, what is possible and what is okay. And what other women think about. I mean, actually, speaking of males, you have two sons, is that right?
- [42:00]
Esther Perel
Yeah.
- [42:01]
Gillian Anderson
I'm curious. I also have two sons. How you, when they were of, you know, of the ages, that you would have might have had these conversations, how you taught them about, as you say, relational intelligence, how you talked about sex with them or about what women, if they were wanting to be with women, what women might want of them or what you expected them to be aware of in their relations with women.
- [42:43]
Esther Perel
I wrote Mating in Captivity when My oldest was 11 and my youngest was 8. We had talked about sexuality basically since they were 4. At 4, I had the first book that explained where babies come from. Because at four is when children become theologians and they ask, where do I come from? And where does Grandma go when she dies? And so the French general books were started then, and it was about the chickens and the elephant and the kitten and the people and how each one of them gets their little ones.
- [43:22]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [43:22]
Esther Perel
And so that's how we talked about it. We talked about, you know, how it's when you like someone, you like to hold their hand, you like them to touch you, and when you don't like them, you sometimes feel like, you know, your neck goes up and your shoulders tighten. So it was woven into the conversation. There was no sexuality that didn't also include relationships. It's one whole. And then they would sometimes like someone in the kindergarten and then in elementary school. And then you talk. Do you have a little girlfriend? And you normalize this. This is not necessarily the most common way in the United States, I have to admit. But then one day I was writing, and in the front of the house were all the books that I needed to read. And there were many, many books about sexuality. And my older one came home one day and he said, could you please cover all these books, because I have friends coming over. And I said, if I was writing a book of weapons of mass destruction, you would not ask me to cover anything. So we're not covering. This is normal. We're not making this an ooh ah subject, and we're not cringing around it. This is just part of life. And if your friends have questions, then we'll talk about it. And. And at first it was a little. And then at one point, one day, I came home and I heard him sitting with a bunch, and they were talking, and then one of them finally said, how do you know this? And my older one says, because my mother is writing a book about it. So I said, okay, we're good now. We can go forward. And then at first, there was a little discomfort. What is this mother who writes a book? But then when the teacher came to school holding the book in hand, then they said, my teacher is reading your book. So it became respectable, and everything took a while. Took a while on their own. One day, one of them called and wanted to ask if they could come and bring someone. And I said, you can bring her, but I want to know her name and I want her here for breakfast. She's not coming here furtively. Lying to her parents, not telling them where she is, and then leaving this house afterwards and going home. This is not how we're going to do it. She has a name, she's dignified and she's invited for breakfast. And then after she left the next day, which we did, and then I came into the room and I said, shall we chat? No, I know I did. So that. And I said, you don't know much. Most people in my office know very little. And the older they are, that doesn't always mean they know plenty. If there is a subject people don't know much about, it's sexuality. If there is a subject people lie about, it's sexuality is the topic that men lie about by exaggerating, it's sex and women by diminishing. So, shall we chat? And then the basic first, first thing was it's not a performance and an outcome based thing, it's an experience. Sex isn't just something you do. Sex is a place you go. So where do you want to go? Do you want to experience a deep connection, a spiritual union, a transcendence, fun, naughtiness, mischief? What calls you there? You know, and more importantly than anything else, slow down, slow down. You will always go too fast. For now. Yeah, you know, and that was kind of the first conversation we had.
- [47:01]
Gillian Anderson
Can you teach boys respect for women?
- [47:05]
Esther Perel
Absolutely. But you also.
- [47:07]
Gillian Anderson
And so what would the language be? How would you, you know, particularly in this day, this time of Andrew Tate's, etc. How do you begin that conversation with them, knowing that there is the other dialogue going around about it so that they listen and don't.
- [47:27]
Esther Perel
Does it matter to you what she experiences? She, they, he. Does it matter what your partner experiences? Would it make a difference for you if your partner said this was a wonderful moment and that you would know that you were the source of that? In part, I think that that will give you a whole different experience of sexuality, partnered sexuality. And then if you tell me yes, I wouldn't mind, I'd like that. Who would say no to that kind of thing? Then I would say, here are ways that you can demonstrate that and that you can invite that. Would that intrigue you? Never give away what you know before you have the buy in, make them really want to know. Because I didn't just talk to my sons, I talked to the whole group of friends around, you know, it was like the mother you can talk to, but it's not like you sit down for one conversation and you teach. It has to be an easy, integrated flow of conversation. It's not. I sit you down and let me tell you what you need to do. There is a way of thinking about sexuality that's very different from most of what you're going to see. You know, this thing, porn that you may enjoy, lots of people get turned on to it. But just so you know, for a lot of people, that is the last thing that they really want. And before you begin to bring all what you watched on screen, take your time to discover it with the other person. Get to know them. Get to know how they like to be touched. Get to know by them holding your hand, how they like to touch, how they give touch and how they take touch, how they please you and how they please themselves. Get to know them. Be curious. Don't think you need to know. I remember one of them, I said, you're not expected to know. You didn't learn baseball in one day. You didn't learn baseball in one year either. So this idea that you have in your mind that you should just know, no, you know, squat. And then at the end it was like, do other kids talk like that? I said, I don't know. But I would feel really bad that the world wants to talk to me and not my own sons, I mean, or their friends that I've known since they're born. So that's the way you teach. You weave it in, you normalize it, you make it comfortable. You don't accuse them of anything. They're boys. They're not supposed to know yet.
- [50:23]
Gillian Anderson
Yet. How would you apply relational intelligence to the concept of fantasy? Let's say, in my relationship, I've been married for 20 years, my partner, my husband, let's say, has never quite been able to satisfy me in the way that very often I take myself off alone afterwards and satisfy myself for another time. And that's how I get pleasure. But because of reading this book, I want to address the subject.
- [50:58]
Esther Perel
No, don't. Not like that. Well, that's what you don't start from your book if you start from the place which you just described. Yeah, I live with someone who basically, I've never really come with them. I enjoy it somewhat or not at all, or I wait for it to be over, or I actually enjoy it, but I've never come, etc. Etc. You don't start with a fantasy because you don't even know if the other person. I read one like that this morning. I'm with my partner for 20 something years. We have zero romantic relationship. When I want to tell him he Instantly feels criticized. I probably do because by now I'm so frustrated, so fed up. I think the first thing when you. I just did a desire bundle, these two digits digital courses on sexuality. And one is really starting from the place of we're stuck, nothing's happening that demands one kind of conversation. The other one starts from we have a flicker we would like a flame.
- [52:05]
Gillian Anderson
Right.
- [52:06]
Esther Perel
That. That one could start with your book. The first one. You first write and you just say, I've been thinking and I think it's writing. You write a letter by hand and you put it wherever they will find it. I've been thinking, I've been thinking about us and I've been wanting to bring this up for many years and I actually don't always don't know how I don't find my words. I'm afraid you're going to be upset that we're going to end up in an argument. That's the least thing I would want. What I really hope is to create a deeper connection between us because I know that we really care deeply for each other. But I know that we've never really been able to have an adult conversation about sexuality. We will talk about renovations of our houses umpteen times, but we will never talk about renovations we could have in our own relationships. Home improvement, you know, of our own sorts. And before I even say anything, I was wondering, does that even interest you? Would you be open to that? Can I invite you into this conversation and maybe just answer me in writing? We may not be ready to have a face to face conversation. So we'll do it side by side. Yeah, that would be the opening. You do not come and say, you know what I would really like that would get me off is this.
- [53:28]
Gillian Anderson
No, no, I think I meant just as a result of having read it. One decides that they want to have the conversation with the partner and how did they go about doing that? So that's fantastic.
- [53:38]
Esther Perel
I think most people start from a very different place. They've never, you know, how is it it works? What does it mean? We both come.
- [53:49]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [53:50]
Esther Perel
And how is it it works? So I'm trying to think before we enter the fantasy world. That doesn't mean they can't go there. But sometimes it starts with if you could have a mini session where each of you could just show exactly how they would want the other person to touch them. And all you do is you guide them and you can even do it with your clothes as in a good sense of focus. But it is about having someone who is completely attentive and attuned to you. That in itself is a fantasy too. And then you sustain it. Yours are advanced.
- [54:35]
Gillian Anderson
There's a lot of fantasies in there where it's, you know, the bottom line is a woman wanting to be loved for exactly who she is.
- [54:45]
Esther Perel
Yes. And seen.
- [54:46]
Gillian Anderson
And seen.
- [54:49]
Esther Perel
Yeah. Cherished. Cherished, yeah. And I see a lot of cherished spouses and famished love.
- [54:59]
Gillian Anderson
Interesting.
- [55:00]
Esther Perel
So it has to start. It starts much more basic, you know, but we have to stop. So I was thinking, what's this like for you? Because they usually interview you and hear what you.
- [55:14]
Gillian Anderson
It's really fascinating. I've had some fantastic conversations with women. One thing that I want to make sure that we speak about before we finish is the area that I think I'm. I'm most interested in what's coming from this, which is about a new sense of empowerment in starting this conversation in this community that's developing because of the book. It's encouraging women to find their voice.
- [55:45]
Esther Perel
Right, Right. But what you just highlighted when you talked about cherished and adored and being loved for exactly who she is, is that that's not always how she experiences herself.
- [55:58]
Gillian Anderson
Correct.
- [55:58]
Esther Perel
She experiences herself with a much more of a critical voice, a comparative voice, a competitive voice, a voice of abnegation, you know, and so the fantasy of being received and loved as she is stands in contrast.
- [56:17]
Gillian Anderson
Exactly.
- [56:18]
Esther Perel
So that's the fantasy that repairs and compensates.
- [56:21]
Gillian Anderson
Yes.
- [56:21]
Esther Perel
The power. I think it's empowerment and self acceptance.
- [56:27]
Gillian Anderson
Yes.
- [56:28]
Esther Perel
Are interconnected.
- [56:29]
Gillian Anderson
Absolutely agree.
- [56:31]
Esther Perel
And so when she finds her voice, if I ask her, this is a very different level of question. Just like I turn myself on when or by which is different than what turns me on is, yeah, or you turn me on when.
- [56:53]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [56:54]
Esther Perel
And sometimes it starts with, I turn myself on when I walk in nature, when I listen to music, when I dance in the bathroom, when I. When I pamper myself, when I go out with my girlfriends, when I read a good book, it's basically I give myself the permission to attend to myself. It's the personal version of the same in the fantasy.
- [57:21]
Gillian Anderson
Is that the first step before being able to ask that of somebody else?
- [57:28]
Esther Perel
I don't know. I imagine for some it may be me first, you next, and for others it may be you first, me next. I don't know that there is a one size fits all. But what I do know is that when you ask women what turns. How do I turn myself on or off? The answers are not sexual in nature. They have to do with empowerment. They have to do with what you're highlighting, with self acceptance, with body image, with sensuality, with pleasure, with nurturing oneself, with attending to oneself. And that in itself is the first level of I'm adoring myself.
- [58:11]
Gillian Anderson
Or particularly adoring and cherishing. So much shame.
- [58:15]
Esther Perel
Yeah, we did. We can't have this conversation without using this word at least once. Yeah, you know, because you paid a lot of attention to that.
- [58:23]
Gillian Anderson
Yeah.
- [58:25]
Esther Perel
And I think that that cherishing myself, attending to myself is on the other side of the shape.
- [58:34]
Gillian Anderson
Absolutely.
- [58:45]
Esther Perel
Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller and Julia Natt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul, the number one selling product of its kind with over 20 years of research and innovation. Botox Cosmetic Adabatulinum Toxin A is a prescription medicine used to temporarily make moderate to severe frown lines, crow's feet and forehead lines look better in adults. Effects of Botox Cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Don't receive Botox Cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow and eyelid drooping and eyelid swelling. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Tell your doctor about medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease, Myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. For full safety information, visit botoxcosmetic.com or call 877-351-0300. See for yourself@botoxcosmetic.com look, we're all tired of multitasking and keeping those mental tabs open day after day. Why not quiet all the noise and go for a drive that will feel like a reward in a Toyota Crown? Whether you're looking for a sleek sedan or an impressive suv, the Toyota Crown family comes with the quality and reliability that Toyota is known for, along with bold and elegant exterior styles. Make every drive an experience that captivates the senses learn more@toyota.com toyotacrownfamily toyota let's go places.