Should I Have Another Baby?

Summary

Podcast Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode Title: Should I Have Another Baby?
Release Date: April 6, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply raw and insightful session, Esther Perel speaks with a mother wrestling with the longing for a third child. The caller’s yearning is complicated by the trauma of a nearly catastrophic pregnancy, a nightmarish birth experience, medical trials with her newborn twins, and unresolved wounds from an abusive childhood. Esther helps her untangle whether the desire for another baby is an authentic wish—or a search for redemption and healing from past pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Caller’s Background and Dilemma

• The caller is a mother of 3.5-year-old twins who survived a traumatic pregnancy and birth, severe postpartum medical scares, and now wonders if her wish for a third child is healthy.
• She is concerned about “putting too much” on a future child—a longing for a joyful, redemptive pregnancy experience.
  • “I don’t want to have a child just to try and have a redemptive experience because that’s not reason enough to bring a soul into this world.” (Caller, 02:16)
• Her childhood was marred by abuse and neglect, intensifying her drive to build a loving family.

2. Articulating and Owning Trauma

• Esther notes how the caller groups her trauma into three categories: pregnancy, birth, and postpartum. Esther herself categorizes them as childhood trauma, motherhood, and the search for redemption, drawing a poignant parallel.
  • “I had in my head: childhood, motherhood, and redemptive experience.” (Esther, 04:48)
• The caller rarely discusses her story in its entirety, which Esther gently encourages as a step toward healing.

3. Medical Complexities and Risks

• The caller describes hyperemesis gravidarum (HG): severe, unrelenting nausea and vomiting that became life-threatening and left her bedridden.
  • “It’s not morning sickness… it’s very dangerous… very horrible, because it’s not just the vomiting, but the 24/7 nausea.” (Caller, 07:10)
• Her twins’ birth was during COVID; she was left alone for hours and mistreated by staff while her husband was absent.
• One child was born with a heart condition, plunging the family into uncertainty for months.
  • “We’d get some good news and then… some bad news a few days later… It was three and a half months after the birth that a cardiologist said… there’s no reason to think he won’t live a full and happy life. That really was one of the best days of my life. But it was also after three and a half months of terror.” (Caller, 11:50)

4. Guilt, Shame, and the Shadow of Abuse

• The caller struggles with guilt for not feeling “grateful enough” and fear that wanting another child is selfish or an attempt to repair her own past.
  • “I feel a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about it because I feel like I do feel ungrateful. I have two healthy children and we made it through.” (Caller, 25:31)
• The abusive relationship with her mother haunts her: “Maybe there’s a part of me that wants to prove that I’m a better mother than she was. Not only will I not hurt my children, but I will endure hurt for my children—the opposite of her in that way.” (Caller, 32:25)

5. The Cycle of Defiance and “Illusion of Power”

• Esther identifies the pattern of inner defiance and “illusion of power” stemming from childhood. The caller recounts standing up to her abusive mother as a teen, a pivotal act of survival.
  • “I thought sometimes you have to gather a crazy amount of resources and strength and courage and just bust through the wall and do the thing… You can do it, but you have to believe you can do it.” (Caller, 31:04)
• Esther warns that the same survival energy—the urge to muscle through adversity—can drive decisions about parenthood in dangerous ways.
  • “I need really to ground myself in reality when I say I want another child. Because I can’t make that decision from an illusion of power.” (Esther, 39:51)

6. Recognizing and Healing PTSD

• Esther directly names the caller’s suffering as PTSD.
  • “You have post traumatic stress. You know, you have PTSD from this thing. It’s not a word I throw lightly.” (Esther, 24:11)
• She strongly recommends EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy:
  • “It’s so visceral on you. It’s three and a half years later, and it’s like breathing and oozing out of you… You really do [need to try EMDR].” (Esther, 13:15)

7. Embracing the Space “Between You and the Castle”

• The urge to “run straight ahead” and fix things is strong. Esther encourages the caller to pause and create space—for herself, with her husband, and beyond motherhood.
• The metaphor: The caller aims for her “castle” (goal), ignoring obstacles. Her husband surveys the landscape and considers the journey. Esther suggests exploring this space, not charging ahead driven by old wounds.
  • “Take some time to explore the space between you and the castle.” (Esther, 46:43)

8. Differentiation and Daily Repair

• Esther emphasizes that being a better parent isn’t achieved by grand gestures or more children, but by the everyday choices that break old cycles.
  • “One of the ways that we express our difference from our parent… is not in huge decisions. It’s in the everyday.” (Esther, 45:37)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the weight of postpartum trauma
  “It’s three and a half years later, and it’s like breathing and oozing out of you… Your whole body is reliving this as you’re telling it.”
  — Esther Perel (13:17)

• On longing for a repair
  “I had a shitty family. I dreamt about having the repair family. I thought I was on my way. It totally derailed. I feel robbed and pissed… And now that I’m completely spent, I finally can think about having the child that was going to give me the story that I didn’t have at the beginning.”
  — Esther Perel (22:55)

• On the urge to prove herself through parenting
  “Maybe there’s a part of me that wants to prove that I’m a better mother than she was. Not only will I not hurt my children, but I will endure hurt for my children—the opposite of her in that way.”
  — Caller (32:25)

• On pausing before new life-changing decisions
  “You have time, you’re not in a rush, but it’s on your mind. And when something is on your mind, you dig in. It becomes this idée fixe… By hook or by crook, you’re going to make this possible… What would happen if you lay flat for almost a year? Can you do that with your two little ones?”
  — Esther Perel (40:26)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Caller’s initial question & backstory: 00:14–03:08
• Caller begins to process trauma with Esther: 04:12–08:18
• Detailing the ordeals of birth & postpartum: 08:18–12:42
• Naming, reliving, and advice for trauma (EMDR): 13:07–15:31
• Exploring the meaning of her wish for another child: 15:31–17:13
• Reconciling guilt, shame, and gratitude: 25:30–26:48
• Revealing maternal abuse & its impact: 30:00–34:29
• Defiance vs. desire; recognizing patterns: 39:24–44:58
• How to make future decisions; breaking cycles: 44:58–47:49
• Final recommendations and wrap-up: 46:29–48:49

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Esther’s Core Recommendations

1. Try EMDR Therapy:
   “You have to go [try EMDR]… You really do, because it’s so visceral on you.” (13:15)

2. Take Time to Reflect:
   “Take some time to explore the space between you and the castle.” (46:43)

3. Separate Desire from Defiance:
   “Three is you separate between desire and defiance. That’s your question. Do I want it because it’s me or do I want it because I’m proving something?” (46:46)

4. Include Your Partner:
   “It would be very interesting for your husband to listen to this conversation… and then for us to have a conversation together.” (46:12)

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Episode Tone and Takeaway

The episode is intimate, raw, compassionate, and profoundly affirming. Esther’s tone is both nurturing and honest, guiding the caller to see her wishes and pains more clearly—without judgment. The conversation offers listeners a moving exploration of how past wounds and present desires become entangled, and how careful reflection and support can foster genuine healing before life-defining choices are made.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

In this following session we discuss assault. And I want you to know this before you listen.

[Caller]

Hi Esther, I am coming to you with a question at an interesting time in my life. I am mother of two beautiful children, three and a half year old twins, and I am finding myself, and have been finding myself for a long time longing for another child. This longing is complicated by the fact that I had a very scary and intense and dangerous pregnancy with the twins, a very traumatic birth that has left real scars behind and a period immediately in postpartum where my children were born with health problems that thankfully have been resolved. But there were a few months in the beginning where we didn't know if one of my children in particular if it would have an impact on their length of life. And there were a lot of doctor's appointments and things to figure out related to these health issues that the two of them had. And my question is about how can I move forward with another pregnancy without bringing in a wish that is not fair to a new child? That I would have a different experience this time, that I would have a more positive experience, an experience that would be in any way joyful because there was really no joy or all of the joy was clouded out by fear in my pregnancy, birth and postpartum period and not putting that wish too much on a new life because I don't want to have a child just to try and have a redemptive experience because that's not reason enough to bring a soul into this world and it's not fair to that child. So how do I tease out that I think natural hope and wish to have a joyful pregnancy, birth or postpartum period without making the wish so big that if it doesn't happen it will crush me. Particularly as I am somebody who experienced abuse and neglect in my childhood and youth. And I've always wanted to be a mother and in some ways always wanted to create the family I never had. And I feel so grateful that I get to do that in so many ways. But my process of becoming a mother was just horrible. It was a nightmare. How can I reconcile all of these things together and move forward? Because I do want another baby. I would love any help that you have or any thoughts about this question. Thank you so much.

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[Caller]

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[Esther Perel]

You're reliving it, huh?

[Caller]

Yes. Sure. You don't often talk about it, so it's. It's a new experience in some ways, to hear all three things put together. I speak with certain friends about certain snippets of it, but I don't really ever talk about the whole journey that way, so.

[Esther Perel]

And when you say the three parts for you, they are

[Caller]

pregnancy, the birth and postpartum.

[Esther Perel]

I had in my head childhood, motherhood and redemptive experience.

[Caller]

That's very interesting.

[Esther Perel]

That's where I went. It's not any more right than yours.

[Caller]

It's interesting that it parallels,

[Esther Perel]

because those are the three things you don't often put together either, right?

[Caller]

That's true.

[Esther Perel]

Are you making this decision alone, or is there a partner in your life?

[Caller]

I have a wonderful husband. I have a wonderful husband and he's the father of my twins. And we are hoping for a third, but we're both very scared.

[Esther Perel]

And he is part of the decision. Or he says, you decide, or you say, I decide.

[Caller]

No, it's a decision we make together because it's important to me. We make all our decisions together, and especially one like this.

[Esther Perel]

Is it purely an emotional and an existential decision, or is there a medical element involved there too?

[Caller]

There's a medical element.

[Esther Perel]

So you're taking a risk. Is that what

[Caller]

it's hard to say. I was given some bad advice during my pregnancy because the condition I had is not very well understood. And later on in the pregnancy I got better advice and that helped. And if we choose to have another baby, then we would be using that advice moving forward. A doctor I saw said I should refuse the medication they were prescribing me, and I was very Scared. And so I listened to the doctor, and I kept landing in the hospital until a doctor asked me, why are you not taking the medication? And I told her, and she said, you have to take this medication. It will save your life. And when I started to take the medication, things got better, so. And it's also hard to say if the medical issue I had was related to the twin pregnancy or if it's something I would experience again. I had a condition called hyperemesis gravidarum. It's when you cannot stop vomiting. It's not morning sickness. That's important to say, but it's very dangerous because you. Some people are vomiting up to 100 times a day. You lose massive amounts of weight. It's very, very serious, and it's very horrible because it's not just the vomiting, but the. The 247 nausea. I couldn't eat. I couldn't drink water. I was bedridden for months. Couldn't work. It's really a devastating condition, and there's not a lot of information. And people think you're pregnant, so, you know, you're vomiting. That's just par for the course.

[Esther Perel]

And part of the concern is that this may reoccur.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. No, no, it's very serious. And then what happened after that? What was the postpartum piece about it or the birth piece all connected or. Different things?

[Caller]

A bit different. The birth was tricky. I was alone when my water broke. My husband was traveling for business. My sister was here, but it was during COVID so she wasn't allowed to come to the hospital. When I was admitted, they put me in a room on a hospital gurney, and there was just a water basin and a window with bars on it. And they left me alone for about six hours.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God.

[Caller]

And. The only time. Sorry.

[Esther Perel]

No, no, no, no, no. There's nothing to be sorry about.

[Caller]

The only time. Time somebody came in was when a midwife came and said that the woman next door was actively pushing, and she wasn't even being as loud as I was, and I needed to be more quiet. And then she left. And then they came back after about an hour and told me I was getting an epidural and that the anesthesiologist was here, and I needed to get this epidural right now. And after I got the epidural, my husband allowed to come in, and things were going well. And then all of a sudden, things changed. And they said that I had a fever, and they drew blood and said I had an infection, and the baby's heart rates weren't good and they needed to perform a C section, which I thought, do whatever you need to do. I mean, take them, it's okay, via C section. And when they came out, I was overjoyed. But when I saw one of my children, I really just thought, something's not right. She was so small, she was more of a fetus than a baby. And they took us to the room and they looked at her and they said, she's very small, but because of a few grands she doesn't have to go to the nicu. And I was shocked. I was so happy that she could stay with me and they could both stay with me. And when we went to leave the hospital, they performed some tests to make sure the babies were okay. And they found that my son had a heart condition. And they told us the name of it. And I'd obviously never heard of it before. And I just asked, is it fatal? That's all I wanted to know, is it fatal? And the doctor very flippantly said, I mean, not at the moment, but we'll have to see how it develops. And I really thought it was going to pass out. And they told us we could leave the hospital, but we had to come back in a few days to see a cardiologist for him. And they didn't give us any information. They told us not to Google it, but they said, here are some things to look out for that would be indications that your son is having a heart attack. If he cries a lot or if he sweats when he nurses. And we're first time parents to twins. We were already so overwhelmed. And I never knew because to top it all off, he had colic. So whenever he would cry, I never knew. Is he crying because he's hungry or because he's tired or because

[Esther Perel]

he's dying?

[Caller]

He's dying, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, no, no.

[Caller]

We were different cardiologists. We were getting referred to different specialists every week, I think, and everyone was giving us different information. So we'd get some good news and then we'd get some bad news a few days later and then some good news. And it wasn't until about three and a half months after the birth that a cardiologist said, we can pretty much definitively say that yes, he has this defect and it needs to be monitored every few months, but there's no reason to think that he won't live a full and happy life. That really was one of the best days of my life. But it was also after three and a Half months of terror.

[Esther Perel]

As you're telling me this medical trauma, I kept thinking this is part of what you mean when you say, I don't want to put all of this yes. On another child and say, redeem me from this terrible experience.

[Caller]

Exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Can I ask you, have you done any emdr?

[Caller]

I haven't, but I'm very interested in it.

[Esther Perel]

You have to go.

[Caller]

Okay, I will.

[Esther Perel]

You really do, because it's so visceral on you. It's three and a half years later, and it's like breathing and oozing out of you. It's vivid and you can soften this. And no talking, just as talking will be sufficient. Basically, there are experiences that are almost impossible to put into words. They are visceral, they are physical. Your whole body is reliving this as you're telling it to me. And something in the switching of the laterality between the two brain hemispheres unlocks this. That is trapped in the amygdala. And basically you speak while you're being stimulated in this bilateral way. And it unlocks something that's about as mysterious and unarticulate a way I can be about it, but I sometimes know things that are useful even when I don't fully understand how it works. But whoever is the practitioner will be able to give you this to you in a much more articulate way than me. But don't stay like this.

[Caller]

This is kind of the start, because for so long I just had to attend to them.

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Caller]

I had to get through it. And it's really now starting to come

[Esther Perel]

up because you were in doing, fixing and saving mode, and so you didn't think much about you and what's happening to you and all energy geared onto them, you know? But this wish of having another child is a form of thinking about you. If you spend three and a half years thinking, what do they need? What do they need? When you say, I want another child, you basically are allowing yourself for the first time to say, what do I need?

[Caller]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Esther Perel]

You know, what do we need? You and your husband? But basically, it's like for the first time, you're switching the arrow from caring for them and attending to all their needs to saying, and now me. But then you're looking at this and now me, and you're saying, what does it represent? Am I putting myself at risk? Am I putting my kids at risk? Am I putting a tremendous amount of weight and tacit expectations onto this other child to give me the experience that I feel was robbed from me?

[Caller]

Exactly. Yeah. And I don't want to do that.

[Esther Perel]

Am I being ungrateful for what I have? Why do I need more? We finally are coming to a place of some equilibrium. What the hell am I doing? What is it about me that suddenly at the moment peace and balance and equilibrium can begin to settle? I suddenly want to create a whole other upheaval. Is this wishful thinking? Is this actually realistic? Some people will tell me every pregnancy is different. You know, it's not because it went totally south one time that the next time is the same. But I'm going to hear advice in every direction possible. Every person and their experience is going to tell me something different. But these are my questions. But these are also, I think, your questions of yourself.

[Caller]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. When starting a business, there's always the question at the back of your mind, what if I fail? The other side of that is of course, what if you don't? There's only one way to find out. You can make it happen with the help of Shopify. Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e commerce. From businesses just getting started to household name brands, it can help you with everything from payment processing to analytics to website design. Choose from hundreds of templates to create a great looking website. Their email and marketing tools can help you get your name out there and stay connected with customers. And if you ever need help, Shopify's 247 award winning customer support has got your back. You can turn those what ifs into a thriving business with Shopify. Today you can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Esther. You can go to shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther. Support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Babbel, the language learning app that's all about small steps, big wins and progress. You can feel it's an immense privilege to get to travel the world. But especially when you're an English speaker, chances are that you'll encounter people who speak your language abroad. But even so, it pays when you make the effort to learn a few words or phrases in preparation for your journey. To every country I go, I have a list of the words of. Hello. Thank you.

[Caller]

Please.

[Esther Perel]

Happy birthday. How are you? Where am I? How do I get to the basics for when I'm lost and I need to find my way? But I remember very much when I went to turkey. And I was having my birthday during the trip and everybody, everybody was saying igidodun Igidodum. I'm not even sure I'm pronouncing it correctly, but it meant Happy Birthday. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com Esther get up to 60% off at babbel.com Esther spelled B A B B E L.com forward/rules and restrictions may apply. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Aloha. So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a Aloha Protein Bars. This isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture. Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha Protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com a l o h a.com Aloha taste that grows. And I say in between is also a period of you saying, okay, I can focus on myself a little bit again and are there other ways I can do so to start so that I loosen the burden on this unborn child? I don't just feel like the only thing I can ask is the family I never had. I can have more wishes. This is not a bad one. But I can have other wishes and the only way to repair isn't just in this way. I may still end up in the same conclusion and say I'm going for this and we will decide and we will consult and do all the things we need to do. But there needs to be, from what I'm imagining, a little bit of a space in between, right?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe space for you and your husband.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, maybe space just for you. Maybe space for you and the people who are important in your life that are not your children so that you recreate a more diversified focus and you will find some of the answers to this question. You may also say, we want a third child, but it doesn't have to come through me. There's many, many ways to have another child in the family. But right now, it's tight. I had a shitty family. I dreamt about having the repair family. I thought I was on my way. It totally derailed. I feel robbed and pissed. But I couldn't even think about that because I had to show up. I'm totally spent. And now that I'm completely spent, I finally can think about having the child that was going to give me the story that I didn't have at the beginning.

[Caller]

But I don't want it to feel that way. And it feels like a real betrayal of the two children I have and experience that we had. I don't. I don't want that to be.

[Esther Perel]

But when you tell me the story as you do, it has that element. I felt it, too. You feel it, too. We're both hearing the same thing. Yeah, they're wonderful. They're wonderful. But they didn't give me X. Not. They didn't give me the experience. Didn't give me.

[Caller]

I think I would. It's interesting. When you said that, I thought, no, I didn't give me X. It feels like a failure on my part.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, good correction. Important correction. But it's not almost. It almost feels like it's not clear if she's giving herself something or is she punishing herself for not having succeeded at this. Something is harsh in there.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. You know that's true.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You have post traumatic stress.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

You know you have PTSD from this thing. It's not a word I throw lightly.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

You know, because when and when you tell me this thing, you're not telling me because you remember it, you're reliving it. You can't even tell it to me in big brushstrokes. You give it to me blow by blow, and you're going from one room to another, and from one image that is carved in your memory and in your body to another

[Caller]

that wasn't intentional. It just kind of.

[Esther Perel]

No, that's what PTSD does. No, no. Absolutely not. I know that. It's like every detail matters in the story. That is, to me, one feature. There are many features to ptsd, but this is one where you say, wow. It's like, that's it. You're in for the ride. And you're going to get the story as it unfolded because she's reliving it moment by moment. And that tells me we need some help here. First,

[Caller]

I should say that this idea of having another child is not something we would do for at least another two years. I mean, this is something that's really. But I want to start now. I can feel that it's coming now. And I've noticed it that I don't want to walk around with all of this pain. And I want to give myself to give my husband and me the room without a ticking clock on this, to work through it. And how can we work through that when it just feels like it? I just. I feel a lot of. Still a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about it because I feel like I do feel ungrateful. I have to healthy children and we made it through. I had a doctor say to me at one point during the pregnancy, other women would kill for your problems. That's made it really hard to start to work through it because whenever anything would come up while I was going through it, other than having to. For the reasons of just having to function and get through, I just had that refrain in my head. Other women kill for your problems, and women would kill for your problems.

[Esther Perel]

Wow. And how does. Where is your husband at with this hair? Because he lived it with you, you know.

[Caller]

Yes, he's a lot better at setting boundaries than I am. And he is. He is scared for me, I think, primarily what it could do to my health. I think he. Well, I don't think. I know he's worried that I have a tendency when I want something and I've decided I really want something not to stop. And that concerns him, understandably. It concerns me, too. And I think he has said that he could absolutely imagine a third. And before we had the twins, we had talked about three children, four children. We wanted a big family. So I think the wish is there. But he also has real fear about what it could mean. And I think we would have to have a really very honest conversation about what are our boundaries? At what point do we make certain choices? What choices are they? What can we live with? What can we not live with? I wouldn't say that I was cavalier in the pregnancy with my life, but I was certainly convinced that I could get through this if I just buckled down and got through it. But now we have two children and they need their mother, and that's a different situation. It probably shouldn't be because my life is valuable whether we have kids or not.

[Esther Perel]

But if you allow me, I would like to change something in how you described him when you say he's better with boundaries than me. Me, I would say he seems to be better at protecting you than, you know, to protect yourself.

[Caller]

Oh, Esther. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You think because you had to fight through some pretty bad stuff that you can muscle through anything.

[Caller]

Yes. And not just from the pregnancy, but from my life before.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, I was talking about your life before.

[Caller]

Okay. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I don't know anything about it, but it doesn't look like it was charming. And so there are two stances in your life. You're either strong and victorious, or you're weak and you get trampled on.

[Caller]

Yes. Yes, that's correct.

[Esther Perel]

What do I need to know about this for our conversation? I'm aware that we're only meeting once and not everything needs and can be told, but I have a feeling that that stuff is part of why the wish to have another child. Why the wish to show that you really can, to defy. There's a defiance in this.

[Caller]

Yeah, for sure.

[Esther Perel]

There's a desire and there's a defiance.

[Caller]

Yeah. I hadn't even thought about that, but it's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah. I think the best example of that would be at some point, point in my life, there was somebody in my life who was hitting me pretty viciously, pretty regularly. And it came to a point where I thought, my life is really in danger here because this person is using me as a stress release valve. It's not based on any behavior. There's no rhyme or reason. There's an enjoyment to it. And I thought I have to. I have to stand up for myself and I have to think of something to say because I'm not going to be able to do it in the moment and I'm going to say it the next time it starts. And I went to this person and when they started and I said, the next time you hit me, I will hit you back. And this person never hit me again.

[Esther Perel]

How old?

[Caller]

16. And that was really pivotal in my life because I thought sometimes you have to gather a crazy amount of resources and strength and courage and just bust through the wall and do the thing. Say the thing that you don't think you can do. And you have to get the other person to back off. And you can do it, but you have to believe you can do it. And you have to do it with a resolve or you're going to be in danger.

[Esther Perel]

Do you see her?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You just saw her as you were talking?

[Caller]

Yeah, yeah, I'm proud of her.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, absolutely.

[Caller]

I remember, I thought, make yourself as big as you can before you make yourself get up on your toes. And it just breaks my heart to think about a child thinking about, how do I make myself physically intimidating enough to get somebody to stop hitting me.

[Esther Perel]

Who was it?

[Caller]

But I'm proud of her. Pardon?

[Esther Perel]

Who was.

[Caller]

Was my mother. And maybe there's a part of me that wants to prove that I'm a better mother than she was.

[Esther Perel]

That's why I asked you who it was.

[Caller]

Yeah. That I can. Not only will I not hurt my children, but I will endure hurt for my children. The opposite of her in that way. Even though I know that she's a complex person. She wasn't all horrible. She had her own trauma. And I've done a lot of work, and she's done a lot of work in the meantime, but in this way, you know, some people say they understand their parents more once they become parents. I understand my parents less. And I told her one time, I don't even. Honestly, I don't blame you even for hitting me once. I blame you for hitting me more than once. I blame you for not realizing I need help and this could never happen again or something, anything. I don't have her life, and I don't have her limitations. And at the same time, I can't imagine harming one of my children intentionally. I can't. I can't imagine saying the things or doing the things that were done to me or said to me. I know that she carries her own trauma that's unresolved, and I know how that cycle perpetuates. It's one of. I mean, years before I even got pregnant, I went to therapy and worked with a therapist for two and a half years on my childhood and this trauma, because I did not want to leave this unresolved before I had children of my own.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Masterclass This Mother's Day. The obvious route is to get her a bouquet, a sweet card, maybe a nice dinner. And those are all lovely things. But may I offer an alternative inspiration with Masterclass? Masterclass gives you access to more than 200 classes across 13 categories, including business, writing, cooking, creativity, wellness, and more. If there's one thing I know, it's that the most meaningful gifts usually aren't just things. They're experiences that stay with you. And I think that masterclass is a lovely way to offer the mother or the mother figure in your life something that honors her curiosity and her intellectual. Masterclass keeps adding new classes, so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] begin that's 15% [e-mail] begin. Head to masterclass.com begin to see the latest offer. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Monarch the bright and warm energy of spring gives us flowers, outdoor movies and taxes look, it couldn't be all good, but that's where Monarch can help Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with code begin. Unlike most other personal finance apps, Monarch is built to make you proactive and not just reactive. So this year you can make a real plan for your tax return. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool that makes money management simple. Use code beginonarch.com for half of your first year. That's 50% [e-mail] Code begin support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Osea. You deserve good rest, but you're not always going to get it. And on those days when you're stretched a little thin or running on fumes, one of the first places that can show up is your skin. OSEA wants to help you develop a good routine so that you and your beautiful skin can get the rest you deserve. Their line of Dream Collection products were developed to help reduce the visible effects of stress on your skin all while you sleep. And the Dream Be Bioretinal Body Serum is the perfect restorative treatment that smells heavenly. My favorite OSEA product lately is the Hyaluronic Sea Serum. As the weather changes, I like to incorporate different serums into my skincare routine and I find the level of moisture of the C serum just right and it lasts all day. Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skin care from osea and right now they have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code [e-mail] we started this track because I said it's not that your husband is more boundaried, it's that he's more protective of you than you sometimes to be. And you said when my mother would hit me, and not just because she was stressed, but because it felt sadistic, that's what I understood. It was inside your sentence. I one day pumped up my chest, made myself bigger than I ever was, more Fearless than I ever was, and basically stood up to her and said, you hit me once more, I hit you back. And this illusion of power saved me. But I carry this illusion of power inside.

[Caller]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I live with this sense that I can handle anything and I can defy the giants or the forces of evil or whatever. Therefore, I need really to ground myself in reality when I say I want another child.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because I can't make that decision from a position of illusion of power. I can talk my way into terrible situations and save my skin.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

This is a different story. And I have two little Smurfs who I need to protect.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I may be protecting them because I don't hit and all of that, but I also need to protect them by not embarking on something.

[Caller]

Yes, very true. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it's this criteria. You have time, you're not in a rush, but it's on your mind. And when something is on your mind, you dig. You dig in.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

It's like it becomes this ide fixe. And now you're going to. By hook or by crook, you're going to find a way to make this possible. You're going to hear what you want. You're going to filter what you don't want. You're going to create the narrative that sustains it. You're going to take your power and convince your husband. You're going to stand up to all the people who say nay. You're going to reinforce all the people who say yay. It's a whole mise en scene, you know, it's an entire elaboration of how we get ourselves to a place like this. This is what, when people say, how did you think? Because it's a slow process of putting all the pieces. And what would happen if you lay flat for almost a year? Can you do that with your tool? Little ones? It's not just the problems of birth. It's the whole thing. So you're right. What are the creative ways we can think about having many children? I mean, how do we. It may not be the story we originally imagined, but if we want more children, more children we can have. But I do. As you said, so much of. At the heart of this whole conversation is outdoing my mom, proving to myself that I'm really different, that I'm really better. So there is an act of defiance.

[Caller]

And that's also not. I don't. I don't want to have a child from a place of defiance. It's not. It's not A good thing. But I feel a lot of frustration that it's yet another thing that I feel that I want for myself that I have to question because I don't know how long the shadow is that she's cast. Do I do what I do because I want to do it, or do I want to do it because I

[Esther Perel]

want to prove to her? To prove to myself? Yes. But you have that with other things, too, I imagine, right? Or is that primary?

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And how do you deal with it in other situations? It's a great question. Do I do what I do because I really want it, or do I want it because I need to prove to myself that I'm not like her? The core of differentiation lies in that question.

[Caller]

It's tricky. The way that I approach things is if I have a decision to make because we are in contact, I don't tell her about it until I've made the decision, because I don't want her input, and I don't want to be thinking about what her input might be. And I make a decision in the. Then I tell her what the decision is, and I try and think about. I'm trying more and more because I do have a wonderful husband who asks me these questions. There's a saying in our language, not everything that you can do, you must do. And it's okay to know that you could do something, but still not do it.

[Esther Perel]

And what language is that?

[Caller]

That's German.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller]

My husband, we talk sometimes about the way we make decisions and how they're different. And we'll be at the starting line, and I'll look to the castle, and he'll look to the castle, and then he'll look at what's between him and the castle, and he'll make the decision based on that, whether he wants to get to the castle. And I look at the castle, and I don't care about what's in between the castle and me. I just get there. And he tries to encourage me to think about what would it entail? Is that something you really want, or is it something you're trying to prove? And I've walked away from things more recently in my life, like work things. And I've been listening to that voice more, saying, it's just too much. It's okay. It's not a failing. It's just too much.

[Esther Perel]

And it's.

[Caller]

I think I've just also, I've been worried about. I want to make sure that other people know that I'm not my mother as well. And maybe in Some ways I am trying to prove that her influence is not something that I suffer under. It's another piece of defiance of, you know, I can live this life that I have and do these things, and I'm not going to let that hold me back.

[Esther Perel]

One of the ways that we express our difference from our parent, in this case from your mom, is not in huge decisions. It's in the everyday.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's actually in the details. But as you were talking, because we're arriving to the end of our conversation, I thought it would be very interesting for your husband to listen to this conversation.

[Caller]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And then for us to have a conversation together.

[Caller]

Yes, I agree.

[Esther Perel]

That would be very interesting if he's open to it and if you're open to it.

[Caller]

Of course. Of course, of course. Incredibly amazing.

[Esther Perel]

But there's a sequence here, right? One piece is you go and you do some emdr. And two is you actually take some time to explore the space between you and the castle.

[Caller]

Okay, I will.

[Esther Perel]

And three is you separate between desire and defiance. That's your question. Do I want it because it's me or do I want it because I'm proving something? As in how much influence does she have over my life that she doesn't even know she has?

[Caller]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

I may not call her when I have to make a decision, but that's not because of her. That's because of what she represents inside of me. And I spend a lot of time, as you say, working on this in therapy. But things come back and you write things come back when you become a parent and you start to see yourself in the age of your children.

[Caller]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Because it's one thing when you say, I was four years old. It's another thing when you see the four year old or the three and a half year old and I say, oh, wow, I was so young, I was so little. And this is what happened. And that is what happened.

[Caller]

Right. I think about that a lot. I feel such love for my children at this age that I just. It helps me feel love for myself at that age, to be honest. And I think it's a good sign that I'm asking this question and that I. I'm thinking about it and not just doing it and running straight ahead.

[Esther Perel]

And the next thing is this idea that your pregnancy and your birth was somehow a failure.

[Caller]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

I wish we had more time together, but that too is like, oh, so if we start from there, it gets very complicated to really know whether you want it, whether it's possible, and whether it should not everything that is possible must be. Thank you for allowing me to meet you.

[Caller]

Oh my goodness. A great privilege for me.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Thank you.

[Caller]

Thank you so much for this session. Esther. Thank you.

[Narrator]

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explain, explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparel.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.