To Make Room for My Brother I Learned to Disappear

Summary

Podcast Summary: "To Make Room for My Brother, I Learned to Disappear"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel — May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally intimate episode, Esther Perel conducts a deeply empathic session with a woman approaching her wedding day, who has spent a lifetime as the non-autistic sibling of a brother with non-speaking autism. The client wrestles with feelings of guilt, self-effacement, and the fear that embracing her own joy equates to betraying her brother or family history. Esther gently explores how family dynamics, a culture of silence, and vigilant caretaking have shaped her client’s sense of self—and how, on the brink of major life transitions, one might begin to reclaim joy and space without shame.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Growing Up in the Shadow of a Disabled Sibling

• Difficult Feelings About a Happy Occasion
  The client begins by voicing her unease:
  “While I am really excited... I’m also concerned that I’ll get in my own way of experiencing joy and getting married.” [00:01]

• Hyper-Awareness and Guilt
  She describes lifelong guilt for “having” things her brother could not:
  “My life keeps moving while there’s some stagnation, just by the realities of his disability.” [00:34]

Living with Silence, Guilt, and the ‘Disappearing’ Self

• Sense of Betrayal and vs. Telling One’s Own Story
  The client voices that openly discussing their family feels like a betrayal—a theme Esther clarifies:

  "Your story is that you’re growing up and have grown up with a brother who is disabled and what it’s like to live with a sibling in that kind of relationship.” [05:09]

• Learned Self-Effacement
  She shares how she learned to minimize her own needs:

  “I learned how to set my own emotions and problems aside at a very young age… In learning not to be or to be so uncomfortable with attention, I’m very used to stepping into the background.” [06:46], [07:31]

• Guilt Tied to Joy and Comparison
  Esther crystallizes the emotional circuit:

  “When good things happen to me. I look at him, I see his sadness, and it curtails my ability to enjoy the good thing.” [08:52]

The Family Dance: Walking on Eggshells

• Managing Emotions to Avoid 'Upsetting the System'
  The client recounts a story of her dead goldfish, where her anger was discouraged to avoid upsetting her brother:

  “As if us managing our own emotions is protecting him. And so... the household feels like we’re walking on eggshells all the time.” [18:05]

  Esther reframes:

  “We’re not protecting him. We’re managing him, and protecting ourselves from his assaults. And everybody learned to mute themselves.” [18:24]

• Resulting Internalization
  The client admits she even lost touch with her own emotions:

  “For a long time I didn’t even know how to recognize my own feelings.” [20:17]

Breaking Through—Claiming Space and Needs

• The Flicker of Self
  Esther helps the client connect with her own feelings, inviting the “me too” part inside her to step forward:

  “There is so much when you say I’m happy we’re talking about me and not about him. That in itself says a ton.” [26:19]

• Chronic Vigilance, Even in Absence
  They discuss how the habit of “walking on eggshells” persists even when her brother isn’t present:

  “You don’t know that the weather has changed, so you keep your sweater on at all times.” [31:18]

• Lack of Support Structures
  Esther suggests connecting with a sibling support group, as the client recognizes she’s never sought or even felt entitled to this support:

  “It almost would be like acknowledging that there’s something that I need support with.” [35:10]

The Wedding as a Turning Point

• Naming the Real Wish—Not Just Managing Him, But Claiming Joy
  The conversation shifts from managing possible disruptions to:

  “How do we make this wedding about the wedding?” [51:13]
  “It’s not how do I keep him from making me feel joyful, but it’s how do I get out of my own way.” [52:11]

• Practical Steps to Assertion
  Esther coaches the client through how she might speak to her parents, modeling the language and validating her needs:

  “I have a lot more that I need to tell you. And I’m going to ask you to just listen because I’ve been holding a lot of this inside for a long time.” [47:11]

The Exercise: Naming Desires

• “I Would Like…” List
  Esther asks her to practice naming specific wants for her wedding day and beyond:
  • “I would like to be able to enjoy the company of my friends and family.”
  • “I would like to dance and not feel self-conscious about it.”
  • “I would like to emote during the ceremony and not be mad at myself.”
  • “I would like to allow myself to feel as joyful as possible and hope that that’s what my brother and everyone else can hang on to and that that’s an invitation for him to come join.”
  • “I would like our family story to not be a secret because I don’t think there’s anything to be ashamed of.”
    [54:40–57:36]

Final Reflections and Encouragement

• Esther’s Affirmation:

  “It’s very moving. It’s very beautiful to see you come to life... To see the tears stream down your face without apology and restraint.” [57:51]

• On Impacting the Family
  Esther reminds the client that voicing these needs can be galvanizing for the whole family:

  “You may help your parents a lot, by the way. Somebody has got to shake this up... If you say my wedding is a galvanizing moment, use it.” [58:19]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Internalizing Guilt:

  “I learned to make myself needless. But obviously no one’s actually that way.” – Client [13:42]

• On Celebrating Self:

  “I wish sometimes to be able to be more forward, to be able to have the attention on me. But the minute I begin, I think I’m like breaking a taboo.” – Client [12:51]

• On Naming the Struggle Out Loud:

  “Even to talk about any of this feels like a big step… For me, maybe. I’ll take it though.” – Client [38:18]

• On Deserving Joy:

  “That little voice inside of you that would like to say, me too, I deserve some, I’m entitled to, I’m allowed, I’m worthy of—to become a little louder.” – Esther [53:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:01] — Client’s dilemma: guilt vs. joy over her wedding
• [06:46] — Foundation of self-effacement, humility, guilt
• [13:42] — Discussion of making oneself needless
• [18:05] — Coping with family tension; eggshell walking
• [25:07] — Transition to talking about the client herself
• [31:18] — Discussing chronic vigilance; metaphor of "keeping your sweater on"
• [35:10] — Realization: seeking support means naming her own needs
• [46:26] — Prioritizing herself for the wedding, conversations with parents
• [52:11] — Reframing: “getting out of my own way”
• [54:40–57:36] — Naming her desires (“I would like…”)
• [58:19] — Esther's encouragement to galvanize the family
• [57:51] — Emotional closure; validation of the client’s journey

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Episode Tone & Language

The tone is gentle, validating, and at times quietly radical, as Esther nudges her client toward self-recognition and compassion. Esther balances clinical wisdom with emotional presence, while the client is open, earnest, and humble. The conversation is punctuated by long silences, soft spoken admissions, and moments of warmth and hope.

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Takeaway

This episode offers a profound exploration of what it means to grow up shaping yourself to accommodate a sibling’s needs—and how, with courage and support, one can pivot toward claiming one’s own life, joy, and presence. Esther guides her client (and listeners) through the process of recognizing invisible burdens, speaking truths, and making space for both loyalty and self-affirmation.

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Transcript

[Esther's Client]

Hi Esther.

I am getting married in just over a month and while I am really excited and anticipating the event, I'm also concerned that I'll get in the way, get in my own way of experiencing joy and getting married.

You know, it's.

Well, it's a super happy occasion. It's brought up some difficult feelings as well. Some of the context behind that. My older brother, it's just the two of us, is non speaking autistic and lives with my parents at home. And I think there's always been some comparison between the two of us. I don't think done by my parents so much but I think between him and I, where I have always been hyper aware of the things that I could do that he couldn't. And I think the same goes for him. And in some ways I think I've been surprised how moving away from home and getting on with my life, going to college and going on different adventures and ultimately now being in a serious relationship and deciding together to get married, it feels like my life keeps moving while there's some stagnation just by the realities of his disability and those limitations. And I guess my question for you in regards to all this is how do I give myself permission to be happy at what I want to be, one of the most joyful days of my life and how do I not get in my own way despite being hyper aware of how my wedding might affect him? Thank you.

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[Esther Perel]

What's it like to listen?

[Esther's Client]

It's very difficult to tell this story, I think, and talk about it openly. My brother has been very open with the public about what he's been through, but I haven't and I don't know. There's an aspect of it that almost feels a little bit like a betrayal, even though I don't think it actually is. That's just where it sits.

[Esther Perel]

And the betrayal, I assume, from what you're saying is not that you're betraying him, but you're betraying your own silence.

[Esther's Client]

It feels maybe like a little bit of both, I think. It's actually not something that I hadn't thought about until pretty recently, but like introducing the idea of secrecy and a secret in a family. And in some ways, like I said, we've been very open about how challenging his autism has been for him, but we all feel kind of protective. It almost feels like it's not my place, even though it's my story, too.

[Esther Perel]

When you say it's not my story to tell. Your story is not that you have nonverbal autism. Your story is that you're growing up and have grown up with a brother who is disabled and what it's like to live with a sibling in that kind of relationship.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

A part of it is how hard it may have been, how different. But a part of it is also what it taught you and the perspective on the world and on our lives and on what is possible and what is not and for whom. That is deeply embedded in you because you had it on a daily basis in front of you. So it's not just the challenges.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. It's a whole perspective.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, tell me more because we just met, I'm not going to talk for you.

[Esther's Client]

There's a lot that you learn from having a disabled sibling. Like I mentioned in my question, I think we have both been so hyper aware of our differences.

[Esther Perel]

Before you go there, finish your thought. There's a lot you learn. What are some of the things that

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are coming to the wedding with you,

[Esther Perel]

that are coming to your relationship with you and that are coming to the way you conceive of life with you? Because he touches you on many levels.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. To start that I am not the center of the universe, that I think I understood at a very young age, that there are other needs that were more demanding and pressing than mine. I learned how to set my own emotions and problems aside at a very young age. I think to make life easier for my parents.

[Esther Perel]

Did you do it and came out with a good sense of humility, or did you do it and came up with too much of a sense of being self effacing?

[Esther's Client]

I think there's a dose of humility, a lot of. A lot of guilt. I think that's what's coming. A big thing that's coming with me is, you know, in learning not to be or to be so uncomfortable with attention. And I'm very used to kind of stepping into the background. And now all of a sudden, a wedding is thrusting me into the limelight. Yeah. In a different way. And that makes me uncomfortable. And I think also, you know, I learned to be kind of private, like when I always had good friends growing up, but it was. It was rare for me to have them over at the house. You know, like, they would come, but generally I'd go to their houses. And I kind of. Whether this was intentional or not, I kind of learned that having good things was gloating because he would watch me with my friends or I would succeed in something. And a lot of the time it felt like instead of being happy for me, it made him sad.

[Esther Perel]

And it made you guilty.

[Esther's Client]

It made me feel guilty.

[Esther Perel]

So that was one sequence when good things happen to me. I look at him, I see his sadness, and it curtails my ability to enjoy the good thing. Because I feel instantly that what I have is something he doesn't have. It always sits in a comparison.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And so being in a relationship, getting married, having my own life, moving on. Every single one of these major transitions in life are compromised experiences for me, where the better they are, the more the voice of guilt tells me. What? What does it say?

[Esther's Client]

How could you? Like, I think there's a lot of sadness in it. I do feel sad for him that he can't do a lot of these things, like I'm leaving him behind. And it's neither one of our faults, it's just what it is. But it makes me very sad.

[Esther Perel]

Sad is not guilt. Sad is you've been next to him and often helpful to him too.

[Esther's Client]

I try. It's not always intuitive how to help, but, yes, I do try.

[Esther Perel]

How do you communicate together?

[Esther's Client]

He has a letter board. So like an Alphabet board or an iPad. If it's an iPad, it can dictate with a speech button at the end. But either way, I think because there's so much sensory overwhelming and distraction baked into the autism that he has, someone has to be there who he trusts, who kind of keeps him on task of communication. And so we do communicate occasionally, but it's arduous. And also, I've never had a private conversation, just him and I. My mom, because she's his primary communication partner, has always been in the room. So I've never been able to say something to him and have him say it back or say something back, just the two of us.

[Esther Perel]

And what do you know about his experience of your upcoming wedding, marriage, leaving?

[Esther's Client]

My fiance and I have told him that we had no real expectations for him where we don't care if he needs space to go off by himself. And we told him that we want him to feel as free to participate in the ways that he can and come engage when he wants. And then he can go and be off by himself when he needs space or feels overwhelmed or whatever's going on for him.

[Esther Perel]

Will your mother be able to be with you or will she need to attend to him?

[Esther's Client]

One of his aides who comes to the house pretty often, they do stuff together, is going to be at the wedding the entire time. So I'm glad about that. Means both my parents will be able to. Hopefully. I'm not sure how it'll actually pan out, but hopefully it means that they can just engage in the wedding. I'm not sure how that'll go.

[Esther Perel]

So you say. I've learned to put my needs aside. It has made me somewhat humble, but it has also made me sometimes conflicted about putting my needs forward.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

It's as if I just know my place if I'm in the background and if I can handle everything myself. But I've wished sometimes to be able to be more forward, to be able to have the attention on me, to be able to celebrate myself. But the minute I begin, I think I'm like breaking a taboo.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. It feels wrong.

[Esther Perel]

Right. And that's why we are here.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And wrong says what? It says you're selfish. How can you think about yourself when your brother is in the condition that he is? Why don't you know your place in the background all the time? Make yourself small. Make yourself invisible. Make yourself needless.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, I think I learned to make myself needless. At least that's what I said I felt. But obviously no one's actually that way.

[Esther Perel]

Are we clear on that?

[Esther's Client]

Yes. Are we very clear on that, at least intellectually?

[Esther Perel]

Let's go down from the head. Let's travel for a minute. Are we really clear on that?

[Esther's Client]

Yes. I try to sit with that. Yeah, that's a major voice as well as Asking for things feels selfish. And I think I've felt both these things for my whole life.

[Esther Perel]

Was it reinforced by my parents? Yeah, by and whoever else is around. But yes. Was it reinforced or is that a self imposed and then we'll accept it?

[Esther's Client]

I. I don't know. I mean, I think, I do think it was reinforced. I don't know that again, I feel defensive. I think that's a big part of it too is like I know how hard my parents have worked, that I

[Esther Perel]

don't want to add more burden on them.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. And so again, I feel guilty to even say that maybe they reinforced it, but. Because I know they've been trying so hard. But yeah, thinking back on certain things, I do have incidents. I remember where I think as a kid I learned to put my needs aside.

[Esther Perel]

What just came up?

[Esther's Client]

There's a story my cousin reminded me of several years ago when she was staying with us, my nuclear family, when we were kids. And I had a goldfish bowl in my room and my brother, he just, he saw the fish moving around and it looked, you know, it was like a stem where he just wanted to grab the goldfish and he did. And I came back to my room with the goldfish dead on my bedroom floor and my mom came in and, you know, I was upset and I don't even fully remember what she said, but my cousin said it made a huge impression on her where my mom said that I. He didn't mean to and I shouldn't be upset or angry about it. And I didn't even know that I should feel any other way. But my cousin told me how shocked she was that I wasn't allowed to be angry. And I think that's a big part of the confusion too is when things like that would happen. Where do you put the blame? Because he didn't mean to and yet things happen.

[Esther Perel]

And you can have both feelings.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You can be angry and you can be sad and you can be understanding.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You can know that he doesn't know. And at the same time, that in itself sometimes is very upsetting.

[Esther's Client]

I mean, he's a smart person. It's not that he, he knows in grabbing the goldfish and putting, you know, and leaving it on the floor that that's going to kill the goldfish. It's not from a lack of comprehension. It's.

[Esther Perel]

So what do you think your mom wanted to do to make sure he didn't have a reaction? What was being managed?

[Esther's Client]

What was she trying to manage in that? It's a good question. I think maybe me or us upsetting him further because he does get so angry at himself.

[Esther Perel]

That's what I thought.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So she was managing his reaction and she said, don't make a big deal because if you make a deal, he's going to get so upset and I'm going to have to deal with another crisis.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Another tantrum.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. As if. And that's actually, now that you say it, that's a big thing. Like, as if us managing our own emotions is protecting him. And so we often end up, the household feels like we're walking on eggshells all the time.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

We're not protecting him. We're managing him and protecting ourselves from his assaults.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Because he can be very. He can flare up and be very quickly reactive. And so we will do all kinds of things just to make sure that there is no explosion.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And everybody learned to mute themselves.

[Esther's Client]

Yes, all of us.

[Esther Perel]

Mom, dad and you. So your dad and your mom understand something about this?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, we all do it.

[Esther Perel]

And has that been a conversation like what you're talking about with me? Has that come up between you and your parents?

[Esther's Client]

More so in the last few years, and I do think things have gotten a little bit better as far as what people, what we all can acknowledge, but we are all still walking on eggshells. So I don't know how much. Even though now, maybe the difference is now we're aware of it, but we're not actually making space for ourselves.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Not even when you're amongst each other. If you say to your parents. I learned to efface myself. I learned to take little space. I learned to make modulate my emotions and my reactions so that my brother wouldn't have a fit. I learned to make sure that I didn't burden the two of you because I felt that you have so much on your shoulders. So I wanted to be perfect, good student, good girl, good everything, so you wouldn't have to worry about anything. But in effect, neither my needs nor my feelings much took precedence either because I felt you have so much on your hands already. While why bother you with me?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. I think to the point where for a long time I didn't even know how to recognize my own feelings.

[Esther Perel]

Correct.

[Esther's Client]

I'd ignored them for so long.

[Esther Perel]

And did you learn more about that?

[Esther's Client]

How do you mean?

[Esther Perel]

Did you learn to know you have them and to identify them and to name them and to meet them?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. The last, I think going to college and everything I've done since giving me some space has been really helpful and a good therapist. So I have. It's been a process, but I have met them. We're still getting to know each other though.

[Esther Perel]

Hello hello feelings of mine. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

Tell me, if I was to ask you at this very moment, how are you feeling and what are you feeling?

[Esther's Client]

I feel, honestly grateful. The direction that you've taken, the conversation feels. I was worried or maybe just feeling anxious that I would have to talk so much about just him. But it's been nice to. I'm glad you recognized that. It's a lot more than that. I don't know. I guess I'm still practicing this.

[Esther Perel]

So I'm going to invite the part of you that says, is there some space for me here? The part of you that says, I feel things, I experience things, I have needs. And it doesn't mean that I'm excluding someone else. That little voice that you've worked on in college, in therapy, that meeting with a part of you that has been kept on very low flicker and that is trying to become a little more of a flame. I'm going to meet her.

[Esther's Client]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

How is she feeling right now? She began by saying, I'm actually happy you invited me. Yes, but there is so much when you say I'm happy we're talking about me and not about him. That in itself says a ton. But I just met you, so I'm going to let you put words to this.

[Esther's Client]

About how else I'm feeling.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And what it's like to feel that we're talking about you and not just about, you know. It's like, can we talk about you, period? Meaning without having to constantly finish the sentence with him. That doesn't erase him. That doesn't put him aside. It just says that there is also he's always connected and he's front center of your awareness every moment. Maybe too much.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Not because you don't love him and because you don't care for him and all of that, but because if he's hungry, you're not automatically hungry. And if he's cold, you're not automatically cold.

[Esther's Client]

I think my whole family, we've gotten to the point where we're so anxious about his needs to try to, as you say, keep him in check. Not. His emotions are often very volatile. And so there's definitely, you know, a bit of fear in it. It's unpleasant for all of us to watch him go through these outbursts. And, you know, it's painful to watch that. And it's also frightening. I think sometimes I go back to when I was. I almost freeze like I did when I was a kid. It's like I. I go back to that place.

[Esther Perel]

Are you aware of your own frozenness? Like right now? I got you out of it.

[Esther's Client]

You caught that.

[Esther Perel]

Because the more you talk about how he flares up and the more your face becomes flat, like physically, there is no affect.

[Esther's Client]

I didn't know that.

[Esther Perel]

But then suddenly when you smile, that little one inside of you that says me too takes over and it's a whole different face.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, well, I guess how, how do I get to a point where I'm not on eggshells? Where I can.

[Esther Perel]

But you're on eggshells when your brother isn't around as well. See, the thing now is, how do you distinguish between situations in the moment that are happening and moments when you're gone? So I have two questions, right. The first one is I want to go back to how am I not on eggshells? What would happen if we switch that question to because the eggshells, what they do is they don't let you not think about him because you're afraid that if you have 10 minutes of carefreeness when you come back, there's going to be drama.

[Esther's Client]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So in effect, you're never gone.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You think that there's going to be drama at your wedding too.

[Esther's Client]

I worry about it.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, of course, of course. And it's not like far fetched, it's not fictitious. But that needs to be. How do you protect the space so that your wedding can really be about your wedding? And that means that you don't constantly are looking over your shoulder.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And not in your own body, let alone in your own event. And how do you ask your parents to actually help you protect that? And that doesn't make you selfish and that doesn't make you a bad sibling

[Esther's Client]

beyond just bringing the person to stay with him.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Because you don't know if that's enough.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And you probably think that's actually not enough.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. I'm just so programmed to watch for him that it's. You're right. I don't really know how to turn it off, actually. Even when he's not around, he's so internalized.

[Esther Perel]

He saw his inside that you. When the weather changes, we need to know that it's time to take off the sweater.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You don't know that the weather has changed, so you keep your sweater on at all times.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's that. When you dare. You there, no doubt. But when you're gone, when you leave, how do you go create a situation where you can be with your husband, with your friends, with yourself?

[Esther's Client]

And I think it's also a bit of a feedback loop where I don't think that necessarily by not being anxious about changing the weather, as you say, will make him feel better, but I do think we reinforce it sometimes by our being anxious can make him anxious. And so forth and so forth. So that's our little dance. We're all stressing each other out.

[Esther Perel]

It's all three of you the same. Mom, dad, and you feeling this way. Yeah. Or is there differences between the three of you?

[Esther's Client]

There are differences, but we're all. We're all on eggshells, I think. My mom. Everyone's watching for changes in his affect, and she looks for kind of external things that she can control.

[Esther Perel]

Are you accompanied? Do you get support as a family?

[Esther's Client]

No, we have. I mean, there are groups that he goes to that he really likes, but it's actually been. And this is also something that I didn't really even recognize as a kid. That was unusual. I just, you know, we were just on our own doing, dealing with this.

[Esther Perel]

You don't have a group of. For parents that you are part of or a group for siblings that you are part of?

[Esther's Client]

I don't. My parents.

[Esther Perel]

You must.

[Esther's Client]

They have friends. I don't know how much they talk about this, though. No, no.

[Esther Perel]

I'm talking not just about their friends. It's about other parents with children who have children who have severe autism.

[Esther's Client]

I think they will meet with. You know, they're in like weekly groups. He goes to art classes or cooking classes, and the parents come with. And so all the parents will chat amongst themselves while their kids are doing the activities.

[Esther Perel]

And you.

[Esther's Client]

No.

[Esther Perel]

Have you met other siblings?

[Esther's Client]

I've met. You know, even my. My fiance had a brother who has special needs, but not autistic. You know, it's. That's really the one. It Seems like sometimes all special needs get lumped together, you know, and so there's an understanding that comes from that. But they're about as different as night and day. So, no, I don't think I've ever had or really even known that many people my age who have had an autistic brother or sibling.

[Esther Perel]

I wish for you to find a group for siblings. It's remarkably relieving to have your experience witnessed by others and recognized by others.

[Esther's Client]

You know, it's funny you say that. I can completely imagine how helpful that would be, but I don't think it ever occurred to me in the first place because it almost would be like acknowledging that there's something that I need support with.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah. That in itself will be. You have a needle.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And your experience is different. You're not the mother, you're not the father, and you're not him. You're the sibling.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And the sibling that has put themselves, you know, in such a place that they don't take up too much room so that they don't become an encumbrance is very, very common reaction. And there's something about meeting people who intuitively, from very young, understood something very deep before they could put words to it sometimes. He's two years older than you.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. So this is before you even could speak. And it is inside your body bones. It's in your nervous system. It's in the tightness of your face. It's in. It's not just small. It's in the way you breathe. You know, it's like you don't take much space in any way possible. And it was done originally to help him and even to help your parents at this point, it's not sure it's that helpful. That's definitely not so besides the fact that it's not helpful to you. So these are all things you can learn. It's not irreversible in that way. And that doesn't change your alertness to him, your vigilance, all of that. But the reason being that you have your own marriage now that you enter and you want to be able to. To be in a relationship that is not a replica of the one you have with your brother or the one that you developed as a way of being in the world.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, I think it does extend beyond my relationship with him. If anyone that I'm close to or, you know, we're having some sort of conflict, I get very uncomfortable with. With people being upset in any capacity. It's like, I feel like it's my fault or my job to fix it. Like there was something that I did that set off a reaction. It's not rational, but it's I guess like from a young age, you know, even going back to the fish story. The one thing I can control that will make people feel better, at least not make them feel worse, is my own reaction to any situation and so just shut it down. Even to talk about any of this feels like a big step.

[Esther Perel]

Are we very transgressive?

[Esther's Client]

For me, maybe. I'll take it though.

[Esther Perel]

Ah, there's the flicker.

[Esther's Client]

I think it's a good thing.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about so stay with us.

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[Esther Perel]

You've given me a very good sense of the part of you that says, I'll shut down. I'll numb myself and control myself. Just stop having a reaction. Just what can I disappear Even to make you feel better? But there is inside of you that flicker or we wouldn't be sitting here.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Because in effect I hear you say I want to be able to enjoy my wedding.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Let alone everything that follows. But I want to be able to enjoy my wedding and not feel that even on that day I made myself tiny to make sure that I don't upset him.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Or that my parents don't get all busy with him in the middle of the ceremony.

[Esther's Client]

All this has been here, you know, like you said, it's in my bones. But you know, for better or worse, the wedding has added some urgency where my partner has pointed out multiple times to me and I've been grateful for it because he's kind of helped me check this a little bit. You're self flagellating. You don't need to feel guilty for being happy or having joyful moments.

[Esther Perel]

And is that helping you when he says it? Would you welcome it? You're able to let it enter?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah, it's been helpful actually. I'm glad someone notices it and calls me out on it. It feels like he wants me to be able to be joyful and so it's not out of a accusation. I think it makes him sad that I can't be there. So I am grateful for it.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. He wants you to Be bigger, to take up more space so he can have more of a relationship with someone rather than with some shadow of someone.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. It would be nice for him. Nice for me too.

Good.

[Esther Perel]

That's the flicker talking again. Do you know what I mean by the flicker? Right.

[Esther's Client]

The ability to snap out of the flatness.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And the part of you that says me too, I want, I claim, I need, I wish, I desire, that has a sense that the I has some deserving, that cultivates a healthy sense of entitlement.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You know you'll be there for your brother. This is not a question of. It's kind of how do I exist next to him rather than survive so he can exist.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I really want you to know that this is a question that many, many siblings ask themselves. You're not alone in this and you should know that there is a collective voice about some of these challenges. And I know that not all disabilities are the same, but reactions of people that walk on eggshells and carry deconstant anxiety is actually far more similar. Because it doesn't matter where the flare up comes from. If people organize their entire psychic being around preventing the flare ups. Yeah.

[Esther's Client]

It's a common organization.

[Esther Perel]

Right. You know a lot more than you think you do

[Esther's Client]

about.

[Esther Perel]

About. About how when I say you know more, you have the ability to see yourself, to observe yourself and to know. Like when your husband says dysflagelating is a common survival mechanism, but there is a moment in your life where you can begin to look at its effectiveness. How useful is it at this moment?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And toward him and toward you.

[Esther's Client]

That's something I've been thinking a lot about actually.

[Esther Perel]

So that's what I mean. You know, a lot is you've been thinking about a lot of this and you think the wedding has kind of made this become more to the forefront and it's more vivid and it's a priority and it involves a few more conversations with your parents too. Use the wedding as an opportunity to say, you know, maybe we need to do more than what we are used to doing. And maybe this wedding needs to be organized a little bit more around me and a little bit less around him. Now that would be selfish.

[Esther's Client]

How do I begin that conversation?

[Esther Perel]

I've been thinking exactly as you said to me. I've been thinking, thinking getting married makes people think, as you probably remember, mom and dad. And I've been thinking about how scared I am that the whole thing will be robbed from me. And I notice how scared I am to enjoy myself. And to actually enter into the joy itself. And then there's different pieces. A, because he will never have this. B, because. So there is the part of what I have that I feel sad that he won't have. Then there is the part of, will there be room for me to actually be able to have something that's organized around me? When in the context of our family, much, if not most, has been organized around him. I feel terrible about asking this from you because I know how much you have poured yourself into him. And I'm afraid to ask you for anything because I'm constantly afraid that any need I may have will be a burden on you. And I have a lot more that I need to tell you. And I'm going to ask you to just listen because I've been holding a lot of this inside for a long time. And who do you think is going to have the hardest time listening?

[Esther's Client]

My mom.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. Why?

[Esther's Client]

I don't think she has much space in it for herself.

[Esther Perel]

That's right. Because she has lived like that herself. Yes, that's exactly what I thought. Because everybody has stopped and living right. Or experiencing emotions of their own for many years now.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. Everyone's a little bit stunted.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. How did it feel when I was talking? Did your heart rate go up?

[Esther's Client]

Yes. I think it sounds wonderful. And it frightens me, the idea of saying all that.

[Esther Perel]

Say it in your own words. We're just you and I. Nobody's hearing us.

[Esther's Client]

Okay. This makes me really nervous. I'm not exactly comfortable sharing how I feel with maybe in general, but especially with you. You guys worried that any sort of expression might hurt you. Even though, as I say it, it sounds ridiculous, but that's how it feels. But I think with the wedding coming up, I've felt a need to address some of the. These things in a way that I haven't in the past because I. It's really important to me that all of us can be present on my wedding day. It's not just for me. I want you both to be there too.

[Esther Perel]

Beautiful.

[Esther's Client]

And I think it's great that we're having someone stay with rather throughout the ceremony and the reception. But I guess I wanted to talk to you both about what we do if something happens or how are we collectively going to be able to acknowledge it and come back fully to the. To the events.

[Esther Perel]

It's not just if something happens to him. It's how can we make this wedding about me. About the wedding. Me and my partner. Me. My husband, his family. Us. You. How do we make this wedding about the wedding. You know, sometimes it's how do we make the wedding not about uncle so and so who's going to be totally drunk.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

There's a lot of hijackings taking place at weddings, you know, so it's not just what your brother can do, it's what lives inside of you that's going to make you constantly check on him rather than check on you.

[Esther's Client]

That's true.

[Esther Perel]

How can we be present together for this wedding so that I feel that this is my day? Or are they?

[Esther's Client]

Yeah. I mean, I think that circles back to my original question. It's not how do I keep him from making me feel joyful, but it's how do I get out of my own way?

[Esther Perel]

Beautiful.

[Esther's Client]

And he's the symbol.

[Esther Perel]

Beautiful. You got it.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And that's what you say to him.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

We have done things about making sure he's okay, but what can we do for us? And what can I do? I need your help. I'm going to focus on it myself, too. But I want to not feel that my entire time I'm absorbed thinking about him rather than thinking about the day at hand.

[Esther's Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And for that, in preparation, I would like you to. To with your husband, with your friends, with yourself. Let that little voice inside of you that would like to say, me too. I deserve some. I'm entitled to. I'm allowed, I'm worthy of. To become a little louder.

[Esther's Client]

Wedding's probably good practice for all of us.

[Esther Perel]

So let's leave. As we listen to her. And what would she say? 10 things she would like to claim.

[Esther's Client]

Just in general.

[Esther Perel]

In general. And wedding. Wherever you want to put it. Yeah. You can take another deep breath.

[Esther's Client]

I guess I don't even know where to start. Like, what's an example?

[Esther Perel]

Oh, I'm not going to give it to you.

[Esther's Client]

What could I claim, which is the

[Esther Perel]

verb that resonates with you most? I'm allowed. I deserve. I'm entitled. I'm worthy of. I would like, I wish for, I need, I want.

[Esther's Client]

I would like. Okay, so there's several.

[Esther Perel]

Gentle of them all.

[Esther's Client]

Yes. They're all.

[Esther Perel]

It's okay.

[Esther's Client]

They're all good. But I think it's. There's something nice about the wanting.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Esther's Client]

I would like to be able to enjoy the company of my friends and family. I would like to dance and not feel self conscious about it. I would like to be able to emote during the ceremony and not be mad at myself. I would like to be able to dance with my brother during the reception. I would like to show off my fiance and not feel inhibited about it. And this is intense.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And so needed and so deserved. And you've never said any of this out loud?

[Esther's Client]

No.

[Esther Perel]

No. I know.

[Esther's Client]

I'd like to be able to cry and not apologize for it like I always do. I would like, if my brother does have a moment or an outburst at the wedding, to feel in myself that it's okay and to not worry about the judgment of those there. I would like to feel beautiful that day and not feel self conscious about that either. I would like to allow myself to feel as joyful as possible and hope that that's what my brother can and everyone else can hang on to and that that's an invitation for him to come join. And I would like to have the strength and courage to be able to talk about all this in front of my parents and to my parents. And I would like our family story to not be a secret because I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of. He is who he is. And by not being open about it, I worry that we make him feel more ashamed.

[Esther Perel]

And us.

[Esther's Client]

And us. That's very cathartic.

[Esther Perel]

It's very moving. It's very beautiful to see you come to life.

[Esther's Client]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

To see the tears stream down your face without apology and restraint.

[Esther's Client]

Thank you for inviting me here. Think I needed the invitation. True to be here.

[Esther Perel]

I also think you may help your parents a lot. By the way, somebody has got to shake this up. And I'm not even asking you about how the secret is maintained and who knows what and all of that because we can't take everything at once. But if you say my wedding is a galvanizing moment, use it.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Will you let me know?

[Esther's Client]

I'll let you know. Thank you so much, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Thank you so much too.

[Esther's Client]

Take care.

[Esther Perel]

You too. And congratulations.

[Esther's Client]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

And dance.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And dance without self consciousness.

[Esther's Client]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Thank you so much.

[Esther's Client]

Bye, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

Bye.

[Narrator/Producer]

This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explain with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with? Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian at Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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[Esther Perel]

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