When I'm Manic I Cheat

Summary

Podcast Summary: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode Title: When I'm Manic I Cheat
Date: March 30, 2026

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Overview

In this deeply intimate session, iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel counsels a married couple grappling with infidelity, bipolar disorder, the possibility of non-monogamy, and the heavy influence of cultural, familial, and personal values. Through raw, vulnerable conversation, the couple explores the roots of their pain and the complex interplay between mental health and sexuality. Together, they wrestle with tough questions: Are they fundamentally compatible? Can trust and love survive betrayal? And how much risk must one accept to love again?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Couple’s Background and the Fracture of Expectations

• Relationship Origin:

  • The female partner describes her background as the "good girl": abstinent, religious, and rule-following.
  • She married her husband with a strong sense of certainty, shaped by religious and community norms.
  • The male partner struggled to fit into this mold, feeling the pressure of his religious context and family expectations ([03:54]–[06:41]).

• The Betrayal:

  • Infidelity shattered her “structure of life, her sense of identity, her expectations around marriage, her sense of herself as a woman” (Perel, [02:18]).
  • The male partner revealed a bipolar diagnosis and a growing belief he is inherently non-monogamous ([02:29]–[02:39]).
  • The female partner tries to process these “shocking revelations” and wonders whether to consider an open marriage ([02:53]).

2. Bipolar Disorder & Sexual Compulsivity

• Mental Health and Sexuality Intertwined:

  • The male partner discusses his struggle to manage surges of desire and compulsive sexual thoughts, admitting that he used masturbation, work, and other outlets to self-soothe ([10:13]–[11:23], [20:00]–[23:25]).
  • Esther Perel distinguishes the effects of bipolar mania-driven hypersexuality from genuine curiosity or value-based non-monogamy ([11:23]–[16:52]).

• Medication and Self-Management:

  • Lithium has “flattened the peaks and valleys,” providing stability and making him less dependent on his wife as the sole anchor ([17:00]–[17:36]).
  • Structured routines, a stable job, and meditation are essential tools for maintaining balance ([17:54]–[18:44]).

Notable Quote:
“If you just say, ‘I’m getting manic,’ you don’t know what to do with it. Manic is some overwhelming state.” – Esther Perel ([19:06])

3. Conflating Sex, Love, and Mental Health

• Decoupling Issues:
  • Perel urges the couple not to conflate sexual compulsion, desire discrepancy, non-monogamy, and infidelity. Each issue requires its own framework and solutions ([16:06]–[20:00]).
  • Non-monogamy cannot “solve” sexual obsession or compulsive behaviors ([20:00], [23:32], [23:46]).

Notable Quote:
“Your non-monogamy isn’t going to solve your sexual obsessions.” – Esther Perel ([20:00])

4. Family History, Social Pressure & Self-Concept

• Influence of Parents:

  • The female partner reflects on her mother’s devastating experience with her father’s long-term affairs and subsequent life-long sadness ([08:28]–[09:49]).
  • Her mother’s pain and advice (“you're always going to be sad,” [08:28]) weigh heavily on her perceptions of infidelity and her hesitation to risk love again.

• External Judgment:

  • Friends and family overwhelmingly urge her to leave after the betrayal, viewing infidelity as the “ultimate betrayal” ([28:21]–[29:53]).
  • She struggles with outside perceptions of weakness, gullibility, or being “stepped on,” which complicates her own decision-making ([38:01]–[39:01]).

Notable Quote:
“If they say differently than the norm, they’re seen as being stepped on, as being weak, as being, you know, persuaded by the powerful man.” – Esther Perel ([47:34])

5. Redefining Love, Commitment, and Power

• The Value of Risk in Love:

  • Perel helps the couple see that to love is to risk pain and vulnerability; a relationship stripped of such risk is not truly love ([40:50]–[41:58]).
  • The female partner recognizes a tendency to downplay the value of romantic relationships as defense (“if I say it’s not important, then it can’t hurt me that much,” [44:20]).

• Power Dynamics:

  • Perel uncovers the “archaic power story” at play: the hurt, fear of being made a fool, and the effort to reclaim agency ([48:26]–[48:56]).
  • She encourages the male partner to express deep remorse, understanding that this validation helps rebalance power and facilitates healing ([49:53]–[51:30]).

Notable Moment:
The male partner’s heartfelt apology and the moment he “holds her hands” ([50:31]–[51:30]).

6. Complex Compatibility & Moving Forward

• Are We Compatible?

  • Despite differences, Perel notes, “I don’t know that the two of you are that different, sexually speaking. You have decided you are incompatible. No, I don’t see it. I see the meaning of sexuality is different, the role it plays, but not when you connect.” ([36:48])
  • She reframes their struggles as “part of marriage” rather than as damning incompatibilities ([36:48]–[37:37]).

• Defining Their Own Norms:

  • Both partners must discern for themselves which norms, values, and relationship structures truly serve them ([38:00]–[40:10]).
  • The commitment to the relationship itself, and the willingness to work through pain together, emerges as a central value and act of agency for the female partner ([40:10]–[40:50]).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Norms and Authentic Choices
  “You are actually embracing something that is much more complex. And that doesn’t mean you’re weak and you’re being stepped on and you’re a fool...” – Esther Perel ([38:01])
• On Risk and Love
  “If you want love without hurt... then we're not talking about love.” – Esther Perel ([41:19])
• On Empathy and Remorse
  “Hurting you is the most... It's the worst thing I've ever done to another person.” – Male Partner ([50:31])
• On Internal vs. External Realities
  “I have this disconnect, and what should my values be in this situation? But then there’s this relationship that I do want to keep working on.” – Female Partner ([39:01])

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:14 | Female partner begins to reveal her “good girl” background and changing relationship | | 02:12 | Male partner confesses to multiple affairs | | 02:29–02:53 | Bipolar diagnosis and questions around non-monogamy | | 03:15–06:41 | Couple’s origin story and religious context | | 09:49 | Impact of mother’s painful legacy | | 10:13–11:23 | Male partner discusses managing sexual desire | | 11:23–16:52 | Perel reframes the conversation: mania vs. desire | | 17:00–17:36 | Medication, stability, & new routines | | 19:04 | Perel guides the couple on emotional self-regulation | | 20:00–23:25 | Separating obsession from non-monogamy | | 28:21–29:53 | Female partner discusses friends’ and family’s reaction to infidelity | | 30:35–32:01 | Listing what is valuable and uniquely intimate in their relationship | | 36:48–37:37 | Perel challenges their narrative of incompatibility | | 41:00–41:58 | Defining risk as inherent to love | | 45:28 | Perel surfaces inherited beliefs about strength and vulnerability | | 46:23–47:34 | Female partner’s powerful address to her mother | | 50:31–51:30 | Male partner’s moving, remorseful apology |

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The Session’s Tone

The conversation is open, vulnerable, and at times raw—marked by moments of pain, deep reflection, and tentative hope. Esther Perel balances challenge with empathy, bringing compassion and clarity as she disentangles the couple’s struggles.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, compassionate exploration of how mental health, sexuality, family legacy, and social expectations collide in modern relationships. The couple—with Esther Perel’s guidance—wrestle with the impossibility of risk-free love, the necessity of empathy, and the difficult but vital work of defining their own commitments in the face of powerful internal and external pressures.

For listeners seeking insight into navigating betrayal, loving someone with mental illness, or building relationships outside the mold, this episode is essential, thought-provoking listening.

Transcript

[Narrator]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Male Partner]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Paramount and the new original series the Madison, Taylor Sheridan's most intimate story yet. The Madison follows a family raised in a world of digital distraction, forced by tragedy to truly see one another and come together. Starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Kurt Russell, The Madison new series, streaming now only on Paramount.

[Female Partner]

Megan Rapinoe Here this week on A

[Esther Perel]

Touch more, we've got two insiders to help us unpack the WNBA's new CBA three time champion and WNBPA Vice President

[Female Partner]

Alicia Clark, aka AC and ESPN basketball analyst Andrea Carter. We're also going to take a look

[Narrator]

at our NCAA brackets and check out

[Esther Perel]

what's next in March Madness.

[Female Partner]

Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. You know, I was the good girl. Like I got married out of college, I was abstinent, I did all the right things.

[Esther Perel]

She played everything by the rules and he broke all the rules.

[Female Partner]

So, so many people had seen my marriage as this example of a good solid relationship and so now it's the opposite. It's like kind of the hot mess relationship.

[Esther Perel]

He did the one thing that was not to be part of marriage.

[Male Partner]

There was like five different encounters and I had sex with two of them.

[Esther Perel]

And he tossed her entire structure of life, her sense of identity, her expectations around marriage, her sense of herself as a woman.

[Male Partner]

I've been diagnosed bipolar and I think that that has a significant bearing on how I've evolved.

[Female Partner]

He's really interested in a non monogamous relations, think that's the only way he can operate honestly. So it's like all these really shocking revelations that I'm trying to figure out how to process.

[Esther Perel]

The aching question that they bring both of them is, are we still even compatible?

[Female Partner]

I see things in him that I have in me, but I almost wish I could express more of in my life. Like I love his, I love his spontaneity. He strikes me as kind of like a wild guy, you know, who loves new adventures and opportunities and just can easily put himself in situations that I might find uncomfortable. And so when I'm with him I always feel like I can sort of just like go along for the ride and it Feels really exhilarating. And I've always loved that about him, which is actually initially why, at first, for various reasons, I kind of wrote him off as a romantic partner because I had. I was, you know, very itemized, and I had my boxes of what a partner would look like, and he didn't really check them.

[Esther Perel]

But wildness and spontaneity, great. As a friend, not reliable enough as a boyfriend.

[Female Partner]

Yeah, definitely. And he wasn't. He wasn't nearly.

[Esther Perel]

Did you see his face?

[Female Partner]

He wasn't nearly as religious as me at the time. And so all these things, you know, caused me to dismiss him initially. But our relationship grew and developed and.

[Male Partner]

And I changed.

[Female Partner]

You changed a bit.

[Male Partner]

I changed a lot, yeah.

[Female Partner]

Yeah.

[Male Partner]

Meaning the wildness that you allude to sort of caught up with me. I almost saw myself as a prodigal son, and I needed to kind of come back into the fold of conservative. Not conservative, but just Christianity that we'd been raised with. And I was also getting older. So, you know, three out of four of my brothers were teenage fathers, teenage husbands. And I was 20. I was going on 25, and I was just thinking, oh, my gosh, I need to get my life together. I'm getting so old, and I don't even know what I'm doing with my life. I haven't even graduated college yet. I also have been diagnosed bipolar, and that was just starting to catch up to me at 24, 25. I had never really experienced it. I would have the kind of hypomanias, but the deep depressions I did not have and the extreme manias I didn't have. And that was starting to hit me at about around 25 and was just trying to reassess my life and made the decision that I would surround myself with wholesome people and ideally Christian people. And I thought to myself, well, who's wholesome that I know? And no one that I know is even religious. And I thought, oh, that's right, she's Christian. It all seemed ordained. It all seemed that it was by God. We were all. We were very tapped into that sort of way of thinking. I was effectively trying to be something like you and latch myself onto you. I feel like. And your goodness and your wholesomeness, because that's what I felt that I wanted

[Esther Perel]

and experienced as a divine intervention.

[Male Partner]

Yeah, I felt that way.

[Female Partner]

Well, I think part of it is like that that was sort of the religious community and context we were in, where how fast everything happened for us at the time felt very normal in terms of the People we surrounded ourselves with. And now we're in such a different space where even hearing about that, I'm kind of like, oh my God, you know, I feel like such a different person. But I think it didn't feel strange to us at all. And in fact, like you talking about your brothers that were kind of forced into getting married cause they had kids when they were teenagers. And we felt downright old and adult getting married after getting our college degrees.

[Esther Perel]

In a way, all these decisions that you have made, you made with a lot of clarity and a lot of certainty. Maybe in part because they were prescribed, that's what was expected. And therefore you didn't have to ask yourself, what does it mean for me? How do I respond to this? What do we want to do with that? And that clarity has accompanied you up to now. And now for the first time, you have a question for which what is prescribed doesn't fit the two of you. They start by telling me their origin story. How they met and what drew them to each other and how clear things were. There was a set step of progression. You meet, you fondle, if you want to have sex, you get married. When you marry, there's a very clear code of how you behave within marriage. This very clear idea that she had of life, he shattered it. And he interpreted his multiple affairs as a sign that he must be polyamorous. And because she has been living no longer just in one culture with one value system, she begins to wonder, maybe there is such a thing as an open marriage. Maybe that's going to make him more honest. But then she thinks about her mother. Do you wish you had done what your mother did?

[Female Partner]

Sort of just divorce and then. No. No, I don't. Cause she, I think, I mean, I know that she was in a very different phase of life. She had three kids and the nature of their affair was really different than ours. Meaning my dad would have like long term relationships with women with like a singular sort of girlfriend. And so I think that just really wounded my mom because so much of her love and identity still is derived from family. And so that felt like such a deep cut for her that I don't think she's recovered from still, you know, she's never wanted to date and so I don't want that. And at one point she even told me a few weeks after I found out. And it makes me really sad for her. But a few weeks after told me he cheated, I said, I'm just sad, mom. And she said, you're always going to be sad. That really made me. That broke my heart for her because it's been over 20 years for her. And I can't imagine like the depth of pain that I felt without him even being in a long term relationship with someone. I can't imagine sitting in that kind of grief.

[Esther Perel]

What, what sense did you make of it? What did it mean for you?

[Male Partner]

Yeah, so I think that the desire, thought, impulse toward like a voracious consuming of life has always kind of been in me. I think that sex falls into that category.

[Esther Perel]

I want you to talk to her.

[Male Partner]

And I think that sex falls into that category. And I think that. I effectively had to shut off that part of myself and manage when we got married. And so I would take care of it myself, solo. I would work out. I would throw myself into work or travel or us, you know, at various times. Like we would buy books, we would try to work on it ourselves. So it wasn't like I was completely just, oh, I won't, I'll neglect this. But it was like, I'll work on it with you also knowing that this was not something that you were trying to, you weren't really pressing for outside of me. So that caught up with me. And then year four and a half, year five, the chance that something might happen outside of my. Outside of my. Of course I'm always in control, but the chance that I would just let it happen became greater and greater.

[Esther Perel]

I'm getting a sense that maybe the priority is not a conversation about polyamory, but rather a conversation about bipolarity, which is known to have acceleration and a sense of mania that comes with intense sexual arousal. But that arousal should not be confused with curiosity and non monogamy. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from. Kuo Spring cleaning can mean many things, from cleaning your home to managing your relationships to getting your work life in order. So if you're a business owner and your communications feel cluttered, Quo says they can help tidy up. Quo spelled Q U O is the smarter, simpler way to run your business. Communications Quo isn't just a phone system. It's a smart system. Its AI automatically logs, calls, generates summaries, and highlights next steps so nothing gets lost. It can even respond after hours so your business stays responsive even when you're not. Make this the season where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free. Plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com begin that's quo.com begin quo no missed calls no missed customers Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. The early days of starting a business are equal parts exciting and terrifying. It's a big risk, but it's one worth taking as long as you have the right tools. And if e commerce is part of your new business, here's a Shopify Shopify is the commerce platform that powers millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US they can help you tackle all those important tasks in one place. From inventory to payments to analytics and more, everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Esther go to shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Aloha so many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a Aloha Protein Bars. This isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture. Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha Protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com a l o h a.com Aloha taste that grows.

[Male Partner]

We didn't know what the issue was necessarily and I was still under this. I was still trying to flagellate myself, you know, of not being so sexually queued up all the time and how I wouldn't want to put my shit onto her, you know. And that was a big part of it. You know, I thought that this was something that was kind of a solo struggle, that this is something that was my problem and that you did not need to be involved in it if it wasn't your problem.

[Esther Perel]

And my problem was that I was.

[Male Partner]

I think about sex all the time and I'm attracted to a lot of people.

[Esther Perel]

I want to be careful about not conflating a possible discrepancy of desire between the two of you, with one of you being more interested than the other. And infidelity and bipolarity.

[Male Partner]

Yeah, that's hard.

[Esther Perel]

We need to separate some of this now. The conversation becomes layered.

[Male Partner]

Very.

[Esther Perel]

Rather than everything subsumed. You know, open, close. It may still be a conversation about open, close, but what you're describing right now has nothing to do with monogamy.

[Male Partner]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

What happens with medication? You are on medication.

[Male Partner]

Lithium.

[Esther Perel]

And has that.

[Male Partner]

The peaks and valleys are far less so it's just. It's rolling hills now. And so I don't go into a severe manic state anymore. I don't get depressed. And, you know, medication, certainly lithium, has helped that I also maintain a job because that offers stability.

[Esther Perel]

So you have to show up every day. There's a schedule, There's a structure.

[Male Partner]

I see the same people, and they're usually in the same mood, and my moods will be different, and they can sort of anchor me. Yep.

[Esther Perel]

Good.

[Male Partner]

I know. It's.

[Esther Perel]

So she's no longer the only pole of stability.

[Male Partner]

No.

[Esther Perel]

That's good.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, she can continue to be, but you can't rely only on her as the anchor.

[Male Partner]

That was not healthy at all.

[Esther Perel]

You needed the anchor, and then you resented the anchor.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

All right. So you have. This is good. This is good. So you have a stable job.

[Male Partner]

I meditate. Transcendental meditation.

[Esther Perel]

Do you do two times 20 minutes per day?

[Male Partner]

I don't. I do one time in the morning.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. It's okay. I'm not your pastor.

[Male Partner]

I do one time in the morning. I do one time in the morning.

[Esther Perel]

Well, that's.

[Male Partner]

Cause that's what they ask you. 2 times 20 minutes. Like, oh, my God, I can't do that. No. But I do one time in the morning for 20 minutes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Can you take a deep breath? Just right now? Just take a deep breath. Now breathe in and count five. In, two, three, four, five. Out. 2, 3, 4, 5. When you rev up, it's good.

[Male Partner]

I told you I was getting manic today.

[Female Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

No, you rev up and you can feel it in your speech. You know, slow it down. And there is nothing that will regulate you more than breath.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

If you just say, I'm getting manic, you don't know what to do with it. Manic is some overwhelming state.

[Male Partner]

It's interesting because it just feels like I'm being normal. Likewise, when I'm feeling hypersexual, it doesn't feel like I'm hypersexual. It feels like. It's just. This is how I always am.

[Esther Perel]

It's okay. You're learning to. You know, if you had diabetes, you'd learn to manage it.

[Male Partner]

Mm. That's what you say. It just. You just got me thinking when you said they feed into each other. You think about sex. So you keep thinking about sex. Then you think about. You think about how you're gonna think about sex when you're not thinking about sex. Because you're thinking about this whole conversation around monogamy, non monogamy, and it's like, yeah, I mean, we can have those conversations. That's good. And we need to. It's not going anywhere. But how else can we mitigate that? A little bit would be good.

[Esther Perel]

It's not even mitigated. I think your sexual obsession is separate from a conversation about non monogamy. And your non monogamy isn't going to solve your sexual obsessions. You stop drinking, you stop doing any other things. And so this is the one that takes care of all the soothing.

[Male Partner]

Hmm.

[Esther Perel]

My guess is you are often revved and you discover early on something that many people, boys, more easily discover, which is that if you masturbate, it relaxes you. And then slowly, this activity gets a name and it gets a meaning and it becomes sex masturbation. It actually gets a word rather than just soothing, falling asleep, relaxing. And then gradually images and fantasies and other things begin to join it and everything gets mixed up. When you're anxious, you masturbate. When you're happy, you masturbate. When you're worried, you masturbate. When you're sad, you masturbate. When you're bored, you masturbate. Everything leads to the same outlet. You understand? And you know, then comes an ideology that says, oh, if I were sexually free, you could be sexually free and in a different relationship with your wife. But that is not going to address the obsession, the compulsion, the feeling that when anything happens in my body before I even know it's a feeling, it's just a sensation, my mind fills up with those kinds of thoughts. Your mind could have filled up with lots of other kinds of thoughts. It's more that you don't necessarily choose if you want that thought, and you don't know when you have that thought, how to switch it to another thought. And that's the compulsive nature of this. That's what distinguishes it between, you know, so he has a rich, fertile, erotic mind. What's the issue versus he feels beleaguered by it. He feels like he gets taken hostage and he can't take himself out of it. What I'm trying to tease out with him is the difference between thoughts, feelings and actions and the fact that they don't necessarily have to be lumped together. You have a thought, therefore you have a feeling, therefore you must act. And then we look at his other resources because this is a strength based way of thinking for me. He has been able to stop a lot of things that used to compound his condition. Sexuality is the place where he feels hostage. It has a different meaning for him. Drinking wasn't an issue. His food habits were not an issue. His sleeping he was able to correct. He's done a lot to change and to manage his health. And all of those resources will become handy in helping him when he feels in the grip, to be able to redirect his energy and his attention. How do I bring in other thoughts? How do I deal with breath? How do I learn to bring in other stimulants so that I don't feel like I'm helpless?

[Male Partner]

Yeah. I think that's like the honest answer. I think I could just occupy my time a little bit more.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. And I think that's what's made. When we do try to have conversations about non monogamy, it's what makes them so confusing because there's not this clear understanding of why exactly you want it or need it or, you know, it's kind of.

[Esther Perel]

No, you can't need non monogamy. Yeah. And that's, it's either a choice. It's a choice of life, of values, of what sexuality means, of what curiosity mean. Even if you agree to consensual non monogamy, it is not going to address this.

[Male Partner]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

This is existing on its own. Since you're eight years old. When you do act, is it act or is it act out?

[Male Partner]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

Is it a real choice or is it just like, you know, he didn't know what to do with himself. That's a different reality for her. To be with someone who is actually thinking about life and is conscientious about what he's doing versus someone who is in the grip of impulse, of obsession and he's not really choosing.

[Male Partner]

Right. Yeah. I'll just say that I absolutely want to be the first thing that you said. I want to be the conscientious, thought out person in life.

[Female Partner]

You've made a ton of progress. I guess I have. In terms of like treatment and self acceptance.

[Male Partner]

Yeah. You don't see that you do, but you do.

[Female Partner]

You have. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You what?

[Male Partner]

You don't see that you make progress. I guess it's hard to see it when you're the one living with, but

[Esther Perel]

you have an amazing witness next to you.

[Male Partner]

But here we are. Yeah, yeah.

[Female Partner]

Oh, there's been a ton of questions.

[Male Partner]

She's witnessed a lot. Yes,

[Esther Perel]

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[Female Partner]

hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant and we're here

[Male Partner]

to invite you to the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree, but we almost never disagree. And we're always learning.

[Female Partner]

That's true.

[Male Partner]

You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop

[Female Partner]

on YouTube or follow in your favorite

[Male Partner]

podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

[Female Partner]

Bipolar infidelity open relationships, they just feel so big and weighty. It's hard because sometimes when I have those conversations, I can see this, like, glazed look come over my friend's eyes of. Or my family. Like, I would know how to deal with that, you know, and so.

[Esther Perel]

And then what happens to you?

[Female Partner]

It makes me question my decision making a lot, because you can read them and they'll tell me, like, you know, just be careful and take care of yourself. And it does scare me a little bit, it. Their sense of caution about the situation, their sense of uncertainty about. About us getting back together potentially. Because mainly I think for them, as soon as I told them that he cheated, that was it for a lot of them. You know, they were really angry for me. And just, you know, a lot of my close friends were like, get out of there. It's done. Some friends would even say, I hadn't told them I was getting a divorce. And they'd say, I approve of your divorce. You know, like, don't even question that. That's the ultimate betrayal. And then you sort of add the complexities of maybe it would be an open relationship. And they just think, why would you be in an. So are you just giving him permission to cheat on you? Essentially, these kinds of things, you know, well, if you would naturally be in an open relationship, why would you go into one with someone who cheated on you already?

[Esther Perel]

And can you. Why is it the ultimate betrayal?

[Female Partner]

I think that's the cultural perception, and that's their sort of perception that is there anything worse that you could do in the context of a committed relationship? And I don't necessarily feel that way, especially talking to him about it. I'm still upset about it, and it wasn't okay, but I can understand why he did these things, even if I don't approve of them. And I can see how there's also so many other things I love about him as a partner that aren't discounted because he made bad choices.

[Esther Perel]

Such as?

[Female Partner]

I think he's the person that. We've known each other for almost a decade now, and we never run out of things to talk about. You know, we both just have this mega curiosity about the world and this disposition to life where we want to learn more, we want to experience more things, we want to talk to new people. We love traveling. We have the most fun when we travel together, you know, And I love. I love our disposition toward the world together.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Female Partner]

And he's. He's the first person I still want to call if I have a really bad day, you know, these kinds of things. I have a lot of other good friendships in my life, but our dynamic is very special to me. And he does feel like a support system in so many ways. I know that if I need him, he'll be there. You know, if I really need something, I can always count on him. And he's also really open to critiques, which I think is really amazing. Not that I'm always critiquing him, but there's not a defensiveness about you.

[Esther Perel]

It's open.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. There's not a defensiveness about you. You know, like when we do have conversations and I call you out, you're willing to own your bullshit, you know, and say, yeah, I want. I want to do better. I love that you have the sense of you want to improve and grow and learn, and I love all those things. And I don't think that's a super easy thing to come by in anyone.

[Esther Perel]

So can I take this whole list? I can't talk to him. He's always defensive. Forget traveling. It's impossible. We've got nothing to tell each other. I cannot count on him. The last person I would call if I have a bad day is him. Every time I suggest something, he says no to everything. He's so utterly uninterested in things, and I find myself so curious and eager, and I really don't like his disposition to the world. And if you make this entire list to your friends, do they tell you divorce?

[Female Partner]

Oh, I'm sure they would say, don't be with that person.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. But they wouldn't instantly ask you to leave him on the spot.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. None of these things are necessarily like, okay, divorce without therapy. Right, Right. That's true.

[Esther Perel]

What do you make of that?

[Female Partner]

It does seem like we do live in a culture where we really, really value one form of sexual fidelity as the ultimate sign of commitment, which I think sex is very important. But obviously, all these other things are really, really valuable to me in a relationship as well.

[Esther Perel]

I don't think that he even knows. Sorry. I don't think you really know why you did what you did. There's a part of you that asks yourself, is this because I am inclined to. Because my spontaneous, exploratory self leads me to want to experience sexuality with other partners as well? Or is it because that day I was revved up and this person was there, and then it turned into a story of I'm curious and exploratory?

[Male Partner]

I would answer, yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yes to both. To both, yes.

[Male Partner]

What I would say is that I've always known, even when I was going to Catholic school, that this idea of sex with one person for life just did not really make sense to me. I was also seeing my brothers have to be forced into a marriage because they had children with somebody that they went, then went on to divorce three years later. So that was having an effect on me. So, you know, I don't think. I think that the idea of sexual exclusivity has never really made a whole lot of sense to me. When you couple in sort of a revved up state, it makes it far more likely for me to act out on those urges.

[Esther Perel]

Good. And my commitment to her and my fidelity to her, how would you describe it?

[Male Partner]

I would describe it just as that. I would describe it as I am committed to you because I've chosen to be committed to you. And it is for many of the reasons that you listed. It's also for qualities in you that I would like to have more of in me that I really admire. I knew quickly that I could commit to you in some capacity or another for the rest of my life. What I did not realize until marriage was that the sexuality bit would be difficult for me. I never have committed to anybody else. I've never wanted to. And I've thought when I was 23 years old that I could go my entire life without committing to another sole person. And then when I decided and I made the decision that I did want to commit to you, that was it for me.

[Esther Perel]

You can let that sink in.

[Female Partner]

Thanks for saying that. It's just. It's hard to know what to do with it now, you know?

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Female Partner]

Like, we know that we love each other, but.

[Esther Perel]

But I don't want to be hurt like this again.

[Male Partner]

Yeah, likewise. I don't want to hurt anybody like that again. Yeah, that's a huge. So I can't promise sexual exclusivity to one person, but I can promise that I'm not going to act in the shadows.

[Esther Perel]

You can. You may choose not to. This is not about capability.

[Male Partner]

So I can or I can't. Right.

[Esther Perel]

Monogamy is a practice. It's a choice. It's not a can or can't. I want to be really careful here. I don't know that the two of you are that different, sexually speaking. You have decided you are incompatible. No, I don't see it. I see the meaning of sexuality is different, the role it plays, but not when you connect. I also don't know that what we're talking about is should you be together or not? All of what you've addressed till now, for me, is part of marriage.

[Female Partner]

Yeah, I like that.

[Esther Perel]

This is marriage. This stuff is what people need to deal with in the context of marriage. Sure.

[Female Partner]

And I mean our disposition towards each other. Even though I feel like we try to. We try to curb it, to act like we're not. Well, we're not together right now, but our disposition is as though we're together and working on it.

[Esther Perel]

I wonder to what extent this notion of having to say we are not together right now is. That's the statement to the world.

[Female Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So that you don't think I'm weak and I am gullible and I am a fool and I'm just some romantic, and I'm a woman who allows herself to be stepped on. And for you, I show you I'm creating a boundary. We're not together. And internally, you are actually embracing something that is much more complex. And that doesn't mean you're weak and you're being stepped on and you're a fool and you're letting him walk all over you, et cetera, et cetera. And you're not holding your ground and you're letting him make the power because he cheated and then he brought in that conversation. I see an internal and external conversation inside of you that is just as much with normativity as he's having.

[Female Partner]

No, I think that's spot on.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's a different set of norms you're arguing, but the two of you are having chats with norms.

[Male Partner]

Sure.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. Spot on. Yeah, absolutely.

[Esther Perel]

Say it in your own words.

[Female Partner]

I do question my. And I think it's good to question ourselves, you know, consistently and not just assume that we're always, you know, our feelings are in the right. And so I really try to do that and have those dialogues with myself about, well, what works for us. And, you know, and if my friends are challenging me and, like, really, like, this man cheated on you, and you're gonna, like, have an open relationship that you're not even interested in. And they think I'm totally being stepped on. And so I think I have in part to convince myself, but in part to tell them, well, we're not together and we're working on it as this sort of, I'm not being stepped on, but I feel like I am a little bit when we're apart and I think about it, I can get really fixated on how. How can I ever feel empowered in this relationship again. But then when we're talking face to face, I don't feel that, you know, So I have this disconnect, and what should my values be in this situation? But then there's this relationship that I do want to keep working on.

[Esther Perel]

And that's a value, too, I think.

[Female Partner]

So. I think a commitment to this relationship is a value, even though it's hard, you know, but we are still legally married and we made that commitment to each other. That does matter to me. Even though I think about it differently than when we made the vows, that commitment still matters to me. I don't know. I don't want to fool myself as well, you know? Meaning I don't want to let my love for him allow me to make foolish decisions that do end up hurting me again in the future. Because I do think about it.

[Esther Perel]

If you want love with minimum liability, maybe what you've just said is in part the definition of love.

[Female Partner]

The risk aspect of it. Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Because when I think about potentially dating again, I'm going back to the checkboxes in my mind of, like, this time I would find a stable partner, you know, and sort of try to minimize the risk.

[Esther Perel]

One risk. You have not minimized the risk of the 10 other things that you mentioned that you have. I think instead of spending our time defining sex and monogamy, that where we are landing is a different definition of love. If you want love without hurt or love without risk or love without vulnerability or love without the fear of what the other person can do to you, then we're not talking about love.

[Female Partner]

Yeah, yeah. It's making me think about my mom again, because it's like she's made that decision. She's not going to let love make a fool of her. And therefore, there's no love in her life in that regard. Now, you can't take the risk out of love or the pain, you know, and it's like we'll probably run into other painful things that have nothing to do with infidelity, you know?

[Esther Perel]

But it's so interesting you just brought up your mom, because 10 minutes ago I was going to ask you, how has your mother's sadness shaped you? So I'm going to ask it now.

[Female Partner]

Yes,

[Esther Perel]

I think that you talk about your friends, but I would put mom in that conversation, too. And you're right. You see her, she made sure that nobody can ever hurt her again. But the price she pays.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. She often will tell me, well, you know, I've made the choice to never date again. And the way she frames it is kind of in this very Empowered way of, like. And I'm good because of it. Like, I haven't been hurt because of it. Can you imagine the pain I would have been going through since then if I had? And I think that does stick with me. Of. Because there's so much about her I also look up to. So I think, well, maybe that is the better model. Maybe I should just go it alone like her and. And be really strong and have accomplishments and relationships in other capacities. Because I think it's easy for me to see love relationships as sort of fickle, unnecessary things. It's hard for me to see it as a value. To see maintaining a romantic relationship as a value, actually, now that I think about it.

[Esther Perel]

But he does. He's actually intensely emotionally monogamous.

[Female Partner]

I think that is true.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Female Partner]

It's true. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You may be sexually monogamous, but you question the value of love.

[Female Partner]

Yeah, I do. Perhaps that's just me trying to protect myself, you know, because if I say it's not important, then it can't hurt me that much. And so after he told me about the cheating, I was. I didn't feel like I knew myself. I was shocked because the amount of emotion that I felt, the depths of, like, pain and sadness that would just leave me in bed, I never knew I could be that person. And that scares me. I have to answer the question of is that worth it to me? Is that risk worth it? I guess

[Esther Perel]

so. You say when he hurt me, it reached so deep inside of me, I didn't recognize myself. And now, does it really make you see how much you love this man and how deep and complex of a person you are? Or you think, can't believe I could be so weak.

[Female Partner]

Definitely the first. Yeah. Yeah. But I had been telling myself the second that the emotions were a sign of foolishness, weakness.

[Esther Perel]

That's the legacy of your mom.

[Female Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So I'm gonna put her in this chair.

[Female Partner]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Hi, Mom. See, your daughter, she came here and she thought that she came to discuss monogamy, and that's a piece of the discussion. But she also came to discuss the legacy about what are the choices that women can make. So she's got a few things to tell you.

[Female Partner]

Mom, I know that you love me and want to protect me, and I know that one of your biggest wishes is that I wouldn't go through what you went through. But it's already happened. I lived through it. I'm okay. And maybe even stronger from it. And we want to work through this, and we're not ready for our Relationship to be over. And I think we're in a place to maybe be more honest than we have been. And I want to give that a chance. And I know that of course it's a risk. Love is always a risk, but it's one that I want to take.

[Esther Perel]

This is not a situation in which one can experience maximum certainty. But it's very hard for her to maintain that confidence in the face of the external pressures that many women feel. If they say differently than the norm, they're seen as being stepped on, as being weak, as being, you know, persuaded by the powerful man. The fact that she may have her own powerful ideas about this is not so easy for her. When she tells you, I'm not sure what happens to you,

[Male Partner]

I think I take that with just an acceptance of what is. When she says that she's not sure,

[Esther Perel]

I would suggest that you bring in a little bit more confidence of what you know you want. And that's not the conversation about consensual non monogamy only. That's the conversation about I want us. See, a part of what she's grappling with is a very archaic power story. You hurt me once, how will I make sure that I don't later? Sit down ten years from now, and it happened again. And I will think, I knew it. I allowed this to happen to me again. And then on top of it, because you're in a heterocouple, you know, it's the man's story. And because you first cheated on me and then you introduced it as a nice concept, consensual concept, you already have won over me. And the whole thing is a story of power and protection, understandably so. But that's the story that you're dealing with. You're not having the same conversation. You don't even know you're having this conversation with her. But that's the conversation she's having with you. And with the chorus, the Greek chorus on the side, no doubt.

[Male Partner]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Esther Perel]

With Mama as the high priestess, an essential way that she can intervene on the conflict around power is if you express the remorse and the guilt for hurting her. Because if you acknowledge deeply your understanding of how much you hurt her, it lessens the power.

[Male Partner]

Hurting you is the most. It's the worst thing I've ever done to another person. It's something that I've. That is hold her hands. It's something that's shifted how I move through the world. And the fact that it happened to the person that I love the most. And am utterly committed to hurt all that much more. And I'm sorry for that. And I'm sorry that I wasn't there in the aftermath. And so I am deeply remorseful and feel deeply guilty for having hurt you like that. I never want to do that to anybody again. Most of all, you.

[Female Partner]

Yeah. I mean, that means a lot to hear, and it is reassuring. It just makes me feel seen because I think if I don't want to feel like being cheated on was a foolish thing, I feel like I need you to reassure me that I wasn't stupid for hurting, you know, that it was something that was not okay. But it's not gonna be our future together.

[Male Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

His apologizing for hurting her is essential, but not enough. Where he has to go from here is in the full validation that the dilemma that she's in vis a vis her mother, her friends, the society, the condition as a woman is something that he trusts upon her. It's his behavior that made her constantly now wonder, is she weak? Is she giving in? Is she engaging in a rigged conversation? And he needs to own that when he can literally validate that part of her experience and join her in that she will feel less alone and more confident about taking this on as a couple against the world.

[Narrator]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esteraparell.com Estera Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esteraparell.com.