MtoM #207: A Rural Surgeon Gets Back to Broke and Finance 101: Nuances with Roths and Mega Backdoor Roths

Summary

White Coat Investor Podcast – Milestones to Millionaire #207: A Rural Surgeon Gets Back to Broke and Finance 101: Nuances with Roths and Mega Backdoor Roths

Release Date: January 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this enlightening episode of the White Coat Investor Podcast, host Dr. Jim Dahle welcomes Dennis, a rural critical access general surgeon from the Midwest, to celebrate his significant financial milestone: getting "back to broke." This achievement marks Dennis's journey towards financial freedom despite substantial student debt and a hefty mortgage. The episode not only highlights Dennis's financial strategies but also delves into advanced retirement planning techniques like Backdoor Roths and Mega Backdoor Roths.

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Celebrating Dennis’s Milestone: Getting Back to Broke (00:00 – 02:26)

Dr. Jim Dahle opens the episode by introducing the concept of being "back to broke," a coveted milestone for physicians managing substantial debt. He emphasizes the significance of this achievement as a foundational step towards financial independence.

Jim Dahle: “One of my favorite milestones out there to celebrate… getting back to broke.”

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Introducing Dennis: A Rural Surgeon with Diverse Roles (02:26 – 04:10)

Dennis shares his professional background, highlighting his role as a rural general surgeon and his service in the Army National Guard. His multifaceted career includes several trauma-related side gigs, showcasing his commitment to both his civilian and military duties.

Dennis: “I'm a rural critical access general surgeon in the Midwest… my other main job is as a major in the Army National Guard and I have several trauma related side gigs.”

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Dennis’s Financial Breakdown: Assets and Liabilities (04:10 – 07:05)

Dennis provides a comprehensive overview of his financial situation. His assets include significant holdings in pre-tax accounts, Roth IRAs, taxable accounts, 529 plans, and high-yield savings. However, he balances these with a substantial mortgage of $675,000 and $460,000 in student loans.

Dennis: “I was doing my end of the year net worth calculations and found that excluding my home equity, I'm now back to broke.”

He details his investment portfolio:

• Pre-tax Accounts: $125,000 in 401k and 403b
• Roth IRAs: $65,000 combined
• Taxable Accounts: $60,000
• 529 Plans: $45,000
• Savings Accounts: $120,000 – $150,000

On liabilities:

• Mortgage: $675,000
• Student Loans: $460,000

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Managing Student Debt: Public Service Loan Forgiveness (07:05 – 05:07)

Dennis outlines his strategy for handling student loans through the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, anticipating loan forgiveness in approximately two and a half years. He anticipates a significant boost to his net worth once PSLF is realized.

Dennis: “It should be mid 20, 27. I'll have 120 qualifying months of employment… I might be somewhere around that million dollar net worth when that clears.”

Dr. Dahle acknowledges the uncertainty surrounding PSLF's future but underscores its importance for Dennis’s financial health.

Jim Dahle: “It might be clear by the time you guys are hearing it… sounds like two and a half years out or so you should be getting PSLF. That'll be a huge boost.”

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Personal Background: Balancing Family and Debt (05:07 – 07:24)

Dennis recounts his medical school journey, including taking a gap year that led to out-of-state tuition and accruing debt. Balancing a growing family with four children added financial pressure, prompting him to seek financial education and planning.

Dennis: “I made the mistake of taking a gap year and living in the wrong state. So I ended up with out of state tuition and that started adding up quickly.”

He credits Dr. Dahle's book for guiding him toward effective financial planning.

Dennis: “I realized I really needed to educate myself a little bit more about financial planning. I bought your book and started learning up.”

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Income and Savings Strategy (07:24 – 09:41)

Dennis discusses his impressive income trajectory post-training, despite a deployment that affected his first year. His income has grown from just under $400,000 to over $500,000, with projections of exceeding $600,000 this year due to side gigs. Remarkably, Dennis and his wife maintain a high savings rate of 42% of their gross income.

Dennis: “Our savings rate last year, including the sale of our home, was about 42% of gross and 31% taxes, and we lived on about 26%.”

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Financial Planning: Conversations with His Spouse (09:41 – 11:01)

Dennis highlights the importance of open financial discussions with his spouse. Both partners were aligned in their financial goals, emphasizing debt avoidance and strategic savings. Their shared values and mutual support were pivotal in navigating their financial challenges.

Dennis: “We had all those conversations, you know, as we're preparing to get married. Luckily, we were very much on the same page.”

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Advice for Physicians in Similar Situations (11:01 – 12:30)

Addressing listeners facing similar debt burdens, Dennis advises leveraging professional skills to manage finances effectively. He emphasizes the importance of financial education, budgeting, planning, and taking actionable steps towards financial goals.

Dennis: “You've got to leverage the skills that you already have as a professional… put a little bit of that energy towards learning the basics of financial planning, basics of budgeting.”

Jim Dahle: “If you're in that situation, there is hope. Put your nose to the grindstone… you too can get back to broke.”

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Exploring Trauma Side Gigs (12:30 – 14:59)

Dennis elaborates on his diverse income streams, which include roles such as:

• ATLS Instructor and Course Director
• Rural Trauma Team Development Instructor
• Trauma Medical Director at Level Four Trauma Centers
• Independent Contractor at a Level Two Trauma Center
• Medical Director for a SWAT Team

These roles not only augment his income but also enhance his professional expertise and community impact.

Dennis: “I also have recently started an independent contract with a level 2 trauma center… the most recent job I took on as a medical director for a SWAT team at the sheriff's office in the city.”

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The Benefits of Rural Medical Practice (14:59 – 16:00)

Dennis advocates for the financial and personal benefits of practicing medicine in rural areas. Lower cost of living, reduced administrative burdens, and high demand for his specialty in the Midwest contribute to his financial stability and job satisfaction.

Dennis: “The cost of living is obviously very low in rural areas… the ratio of the pay to the cost of living really can't be beat from a geographic arbitrage standpoint.”

Dr. Dahle further emphasizes the concept of geographic arbitrage, encouraging physicians to consider relocating to lower-cost areas to maximize their financial growth.

Jim Dahle: “There's extra finances… this is geographic arbitrage to take these skills, go somewhere else where you pay more, where it costs less to live.”

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Finance 101: Backdoor and Mega Backdoor Roth IRAs (16:00 – 24:04)

Transitioning to the finance segment, Dr. Dahle provides a detailed explanation of Backdoor Roth IRAs and Mega Backdoor Roth IRAs, highlighting their nuances and strategic applications.

Key Points:

1. Backdoor Roth IRA:

   • Process: Contribute to a Traditional IRA (non-deductible), then convert to a Roth IRA.
   • Pro Rata Rule: Requires all Traditional IRAs to be $0 by year-end to avoid tax complications.
   • Timing Issues: Avoid making contributions in December to prevent settlement delays that can trigger pro rata calculations.

2. Mega Backdoor Roth IRA:

   • Process: Make after-tax contributions to a 401(k) or 403(b) plan, then convert to a Roth within the plan.
   • Advantage: No pro rata calculation, regardless of other Traditional IRA balances.

Notable Advice:

• Timing Contributions: Initiate Backdoor Roth conversions in January rather than December to streamline the process.
• Plan Ahead: Have funds already in the appropriate brokerage accounts to facilitate quick conversions.

Jim Dahle: “The mega backdoor Roth IRA process is not done with an IRA. It is done with a 401.”

Jim Dahle: “The paperwork's a little more complicated than if you do it in the same calendar year. But it's not that big of a deal.”

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Closing Remarks and Encouragement (24:04 – End)

Dr. Dahle concludes the episode by inviting listeners to share their own financial milestones and emphasizes the supportive community available through the White Coat Investor platform. He reiterates the benefits of strategic financial planning and geographic arbitrage, inspiring physicians to take actionable steps towards their financial goals.

Jim Dahle: “Keep your head up, shoulders back. You've got this. The whole community's standing here ready to help you.”

Dennis: “It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.”

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Key Takeaways

• Financial Milestones: Achieving a net worth of zero ("back to broke") is a significant step for physicians burdened by student debt.
• Debt Management: Utilizing programs like PSLF can substantially improve net worth and financial stability.
• Income Diversification: Engaging in side gigs related to one’s profession can significantly boost income.
• Geographic Arbitrage: Practicing in rural areas can offer substantial financial benefits due to lower living costs and high demand for specialized medical services.
• Advanced Retirement Planning: Understanding and utilizing Backdoor Roth and Mega Backdoor Roth IRAs can optimize retirement savings and tax advantages.
• Community and Support: Leveraging resources like the White Coat Investor can provide guidance and support on the path to financial freedom.

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For more insights and resources on building wealth as a medical professional, visit whitecoatinvestor.com.

Transcript

[Jim Dahle]

This is the White Coat Investor podcast, Milestones to Millionaire. Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom. This is Milestone to millionaire podcast number 207. A rural surgeon gets back to broke. One of the most underrated financial moves in medicine is working locum tenants. It pays significantly more on average and you can work locums full time or on the side of your full time. When you work with Comp Health, the number one staffing agency, they cover your housing and travel costs, which on top of higher pay, really adds up. Locums also gives you more control of your career, allowing you to go where you want, when you want, with a schedule that works for you. It's the perfect way to get ahead financially while getting focused on what you love. Whether it's locum tenants or regular permanent position. Go to whitecoatinvestor.com comp health to build your career your way with the power of Comp Health. All right, don't forget Expert Witness School. The sign up ends today, so if you wanted to take on that side gig, learn a little more about that side gig. You know, most people with the first case, they do pay back the course, the cost of the course, but we're throwing in an extra. We're giving you a free WCI course, our Continuing Financial Education 23 course, an $800 value. If you enroll in the expert witness course, you can do [e-mail] ExpertWitness. The existence charge a typical range of $500 to $900 an hour for expert work and typical retainer of $2,500 to $3,500 per case. That course is going to pay for itself with one case and is generally tax deductible as a business expense. Or you can use CME funds to enroll. You can launch and build an expert witness business. You can understand the process of case review and deposition. You can put your existing skills to work, and you can increase your income on your own time. Again, the signup whitecoatinvestor.com expertwitness enrollment ends today, the day this podcast is dropping. So make sure you get signed up and check that out. All right, we've got a great episode today. We got a doc who's back to broke. One of my favorite milestones out there to celebrate. But stick around afterward. We're going to talk about a few nuances with Backdoor Roths and Mega Backdoor Roths. Our guest today on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast is Dennis. Dennis, welcome to the podcast.

[Dennis]

Grateful to be here, Jim. Thanks.

[Jim Dahle]

Let's introduce you a little bit to the audience. Tell us what you do for a living, how far you are out of training, what part of the country you live in, et cetera.

[Dennis]

I'm a rural critical access general surgeon in the Midwest. I'm just over two years out of training. My other main job is as a major in the Army National Guard and I have several trauma related side gigs.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. Well, thank you for your service both in the civilian community and the military community. Tell us about the milestone we're celebrating today, what you just accomplished.

[Dennis]

I was doing my end of the year net worth calculations and found that excluding my home equity, I'm now back to broke.

[Jim Dahle]

Awesome. Congratulations. Maybe the most important milestone, almost certainly the first one most people hit. So congratulations to you on accomplishing that. Let's break down the numbers. Let's talk about your assets. What are your assets right now?

[Dennis]

Right now I've got the majority of my assets in pre tax accounts. My 401k from residency and 403 around 125,000. My wife and I both have Roth IRAs combined about 65. We have a taxable account with 60,000 or so and 529s for our kids, about 45,000, so totaling just under 300,000 in equities. I have a good amount in high yield Savings accounts, about 120, 150,000 or so, including my. I've got a separate business savings account for those side gigs and then my emergency fund.

[Jim Dahle]

Okay, so not insubstantial assets. I mean, this is, you know, might even be seven figures of assets. It sounds like when I add it all up. But there's quite a bit on the other side of the ledger here too. Tell us about your liabilities, about your debts.

[Dennis]

Yes, sir. Well, I do have a $675,000 mortgage still. I'm overpaying that to try to have that done by age 50. And I still have $460,000 in student loans.

[Jim Dahle]

Okay, $460,000 in student loans.$ what's the plan there?

[Dennis]

Public service loan forgiveness. I'm about three years away.

[Jim Dahle]

Public service loan freedoms, your job, your main job, qualifies as a civilian.

[Dennis]

Yes, sir.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. So how many years you got left until you expect to receive that?

[Dennis]

Should be mid 20, 27. I'll have 120 qualifying months of employment and then I'll see. I'm gonna have to figure out if I can hopefully buy back some of this forced save plan forbearance or whatever.

[Jim Dahle]

Yeah, it's not quite Clear how that's going to work yet as we're recording this. It might be clear by the time you guys are hearing it, but a lot of people wondering about that right now, but sounds like two and a half years out or so you should be getting pslf. That'll be a huge boost.

[Dennis]

It'll be a big one to your net worth.

[Jim Dahle]

Another almost half million dollars.

[Dennis]

Looking at my spreadsheets, I might be somewhere around that million dollar net worth when that clears.

[Jim Dahle]

So what did you owe when you left training? What did you owe on your student loans?

[Dennis]

It was about $450,000. I really didn't gain very much interest during residency. Yet there's a good amount that was on the interest pause and I was on. I've got four children. So we had on the repay plan. Our payment was practically nothing and interest wasn't occurring much.

[Jim Dahle]

Yeah, I'm not surprised to hear that. So yeah, if you had four children while you were in training, you probably had at least a couple while you were in resident or while you're in med school. Yes.

[Dennis]

Yes, sir.

[Jim Dahle]

So what, what was going through your head in med school? You know, his family of four plus you're taking out $400,000 plus in loans for this career. Did that worry you back then?

[Dennis]

So when I started medical school, I made the mistake of taking a gap year and living in the wrong state. So I ended up with out of state tuition and that started adding up quickly. I considered HPSP or something to pay for my medical school upfront. But examining the options, I really didn't want to go the active duty route. I really liked the National Guard route. And so I got into that with the option of maybe using their loan repayment program. But I didn't have any kids in medical school until I met my wife my third year. She was kind enough to start a family with me. Had a head start. I adopted her two sons from her first marriage and we added one of our own the fourth year of medical school and another one during residency.

[Jim Dahle]

Very, very cool. No pressure there. Now you owe three or four hundred thousand dollars and. And you've got an insta family, right?

[Dennis]

That's right. So that's when the pressure was on and I realized I really needed to educate myself a little bit more about financial planning. I bought your book and started learning up.

[Jim Dahle]

Yeah. And it turns out that the first few things you learn are really high yield, aren't they?

[Dennis]

Yes, they are. And I just had to get over the regret of getting myself into that situation. But kind of have to take it as it is, Come up with a plan. Adapt and overcome, right?

[Jim Dahle]

Yeah. Okay, so two years out of training, approximately. What's your income been the last couple of years?

[Dennis]

So my first full year out of training was broken up by a deployment, so I lost about four months of my full income. But I did have, I don't know, 50,000 that wasn't taxed since it was technically a combat zone. So that first year out, I was maybe a little under 400,000. Second full year out, a little over 500. And with my side gigs now, I'm hoping to get over 600 this year.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. And is your wife working or not working?

[Dennis]

She's stayed home for the past decade to take care of all those kids.

[Jim Dahle]

Okay, so it's all, it's all on your income now. How much of your income the last couple of years do you think went toward building wealth? Either, you know, building up your emergency fund or saving for retirement or paying down debt?

[Dennis]

Probably the majority of it. I just for my end of year calculations, our savings rate last year, including the sale of our home, was about 42% of gross and 31% taxes, and we lived on about 26%. So about $160,000 a year. We live comfortably, but.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. You can build wealth in a hurry at that rate, can't you?

[Dennis]

Yes, sir, we can.

[Jim Dahle]

Okay, so tell us about this conversation that you had at some point. Now, it might not have been before you got married or even just after you got married, but at some point you started becoming financially literate and you and your spouse sat down and talked about what you wanted to do financially with your lives. Tell us about that conversation.

[Dennis]

Well, we had all those conversations, you know, as we're preparing to get married. Luckily, we were very much on. On the same page. She really came from a background where she had no debt at all. She had a little bit in her 529 still. She didn't even have a credit card. She had no credit history. And I grew up in a family that was debt averse. My mother was a immigrant from the Philippines. My father was a Navy seal that went into it and it was always buy cars, cash, don't take out loans. They were able to help a little bit with undergrad, but the student loans kind of started there. We just always had the plan to try to stay out of debt and live a good life.

[Jim Dahle]

Now there's a lot of people out there that aren't in a situation all that different from yours. Maybe they've Already got a family in med school or residency. They've got three, four or five hundred thousand dollars in student loans. And they think, man, just getting back to broke would be awesome. I want to do what this guy did. What advice do you have for that person?

[Dennis]

You've got to leverage the skills that you already have as a professional student. You already know how to study well. So put a little bit of that energy towards learning the basics of financial planning, basics of budgeting. Do as much as you can for your lifestyle and your preferences. Hire out if you need to, but you got to get a plan together. You need to know where you want to go, get an idea of the variables that are going to affect your getting there. And then most importantly, you have to take action and actually do something about it. Even just doing that, whether you have a well formulated plan or not, is going to get you 90% of the way there. If you can plan ahead, adapt, you're going to get there. And then you just got to remember to take a moment from time to time when you achieve something to look back, reflect, celebrate and enjoy it. And don't get trapped into the high achievers mindset of okay, what's next? Okay, what's next? Because you'll look up one day and realize that you forgot to smell the roses.

[Jim Dahle]

Now there's a bunch of general surgeons out there listening to this and they're like, what does he mean? Trauma side gigs. Tell us about these side gigs.

[Dennis]

So I've had an interest in trauma all through residency. I fought back and forth. You know, I always wanted to do the rural surgery, but it was hard not to, given to the temptation of the trauma critical care. I did train to become an ATLS instructor and course director. So I continued that as an attending and have become a rural trauma team development course instructor as well. I've taken on trauma medical director positions at my level four trauma centers and I also have recently started a independent contract with a level 2 trauma center that's just 30 minutes away from where we live in the country and that's a larger source of 1099 income. And lastly, the most recent job I took on as a medical director for a SWAT team at the sheriff's office in the city.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. Another interesting thing about your progress that you've made your pathway that you're on is that you're practicing rurally. And that is becoming less and less common these days, despite the fact there's probably some substantial financial benefits to doing so. It's generally less expensive to build a Home and live in a rural location. Can you tell us a little bit about what it's been like practicing medicine in a rural location and living a financial life there and what benefits you've seen, what challenges you've seen?

[Dennis]

I think it's the best way to live, personally. My wife and I agree on that. We moved out here to an area in the Midwest where my sister's a dentist and her daughters can go to school with our kids. The cost of living is obviously very low in rural areas. The fulfillment of your job and appreciation in these communities is out of this world. Talk about self esteem on your way to self actualization. The administrative overhead is practically non existent. You've got know, personal relationships with the CEOs of the small hospitals. And you really are such a contributing member of the team overall, financially, it works out great, especially in the Midwest. It's a highly needed specialty and the ratio of the pay to the cost of living really can't be beat from a geographic arbitrage standpoint.

[Jim Dahle]

Very cool. So all of you docs out there in Manhattan, in the Bay Area and dc, Et cetera. The water's fine, come on in.

[Dennis]

Right? Yeah. If it's the way you want to live, then you can't beat it. That house that we have, that $675,000 mortgage, you know, that gets us what, 5,600 square feet and 46 acres and we're in forever home at this point.

[Jim Dahle]

46 acres?

[Dennis]

Yes, sir.

[Jim Dahle]

What are you doing with the 46 acres? Are you hunting on it? Are you farming it? You just look at it. What do you do with 46 acres?

[Dennis]

So we use about 10 of them ourselves. We have chickens and goats and working on some other animals. My wife wants to grow her own, raise her own turkey every year for Thanksgiving and we want to get pigs and of course a highland cow and horses. So that's all down the pipeline. But the majority of it is pasture that I lease out for cattle. Angus mostly. So it works out really great because I get to look at the cows and I don't have to worry about taking care of them or anything.

[Jim Dahle]

Yeah, very cool. Well, congratulations to you, Dennis, on getting back to broke. This is an important milestone. I love it every time we bring somebody on that's gotten here because it gives hope to a huge percentage of doctors out there that are not yet back to broke that literally have a negative net worth. So if you're in that situation, there is hope. Put your nose to the grindstone. Put a big percentage of that income you're earning toward building wealth, you too can get back to broke. Dennis, thanks for coming on the podcast and sharing your experience.

[Dennis]

It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Jim.

[Jim Dahle]

All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview. It's always nice to talk to a rural doc, right? So many of you in high cost of living areas, and I might be there soon. Utah used to be moderate and it's definitely getting closer to a high cost living area these days. But those of you live in, you know, California or, you know, Seattle, most of the east coast, those are expensive areas to live in. Docs tend to actually not get paid more there. Unlike everybody else working there, you know, attorneys working there and finance people working there, they tend to get paid more. That's not the case for docs. So when docs leave a high cost of living area and go to a low cost of living area, not only does their cost of living go down, their tax burden generally goes down significantly, and their income generally goes up. That's huge, right? This is geographic arbitrage to take these skills, go somewhere else where you pay more, where it costs less to live. And it's amazing how far you can get ahead financially. Now, I know not everybody wants to live on 46 acres, right? The last thing you want next to your house is sheep or pigs or goats or cows or whatever. I get it, right? This isn't for everybody. But bear in mind there's lots of geographic arbitrage where you're not going to live on a farm or a ranch, right? So keep that in mind as an option. Now, for lots of people, they love everything about the high cost of living in the area they live in, their families there, their spouses, families there. There's no way they're leaving. I get it, I get it. Just be aware that this is an option for lots and lots of docs out there that maybe didn't consider it, didn't realize how beneficial it might be. I mean, it might be the difference between retiring five years, eight years earlier, that sort of a thing. It might be having a house three times the size of what you're going to get in your high cost of living area. Maybe you can go on twice as many, you know, fancy vacations a year. Maybe you can pick up an expensive hobby like flying planes. I don't know what you're going to do with that is extra finances. But the truth is if you move and practice somewhere else, there's going to be extra finances. So be aware of that possibility. Certainly helped this doc. Even with a relatively High loan burden, get back to broke in just two years out of training. Okay, I promised you at the beginning we're going to talk about some nuances with the backdoor Roth IRA and the mega backdoor Roth ira. The first one is to remember the backdoor Roth IRA process is done with an ira. The mega backdoor Roth IRA process is not done with an IRA. It is done with a 401. Okay, so in both cases you make non deductible contributions to a retirement account. And in both cases you do a Roth conversion with the regular backdoor Roth IRA process. You contribute to a traditional ira, then move the money to a Roth ira. With the mega backdoor Roth IRA process, you make an after tax employee contribution to your 401 or 403 and then you do a Roth conversion on that within the plan. Usually, I mean it's possible to take it out of the plan in some plans and put it in a Roth ira, but most of the time you're doing an in plan conversion. There is a pro rata calculation that occurs with the backdoor Roth ira such that you need to empty out all of your traditional IRAs by the end of the year. Traditional IRAs, simple IRAs, SEP IRAs gotta be $0 on 12, 31, 2024 for last year or 2025 for this year, whatever, or you're going to get prorated now. It's not the end of the world if you get prorated on $7. You know, the $7 in interest that that money made in your traditional IRA. While I was waiting for the conversion step, yes, the best thing to do is do another $7 Roth conversion and get rid of that. But it's not the end of the world if you get prorated on that. That doesn't like defeat the purpose of doing the Roth ira. You just clean that up the next year. The next year you do a Roth conversion of your $7,000. If you're under 50 plus that $7 and you convert it, then no big deal. With the mega backdoor Roth ira there is no pro rata calculation. It doesn't matter what's in your traditional SEP or simple IRAs, you never get prorated with a mega backdoor Roth IRA process. Hope that's helpful. Another issue that comes up every January is people get frustrated. It's particularly frustrating if you start your backdoor Roth IRA process in December. December is not backdoor Roth IRA time. January is backdoor Roth IRA time. So don't mess with it in December because what happens to people is they make the contribution in December. Then all of a sudden their brokerage or mutual fund company, their IRA custodian, wherever it is, decides they want your money to clear to settle before they let you move it to another account, like a Roth ira. So they force you to sit in the traditional IRA until the end of the year, till that money settles. And then you didn't do your conversion in the same year. Now, that can cause a big problem with the pro rata issue, especially if you did any sort of Roth conversion in the prior year. So in general, don't make your contribution in December. Right? You can do a contribution for the previous year until your tax day in the next year. So there's no rush to do it before December 31st. All right? So you can just wait till January of 2025 and do your backdoor Roth for 2024. That's not a big deal. The paperwork's a little more complicated than if you do it in the same calendar year. But it's not a big deal you can do with the paperwork. I assure you it's not that complicated. I'll walk you through it on my backdoor Roth IRA tutorial. Keep in mind that this occurs at different speeds at different places. Okay. Like, Fidelity's kind of been known for waiting forever for your money to settle. Like, I've heard as many as 16 business days. So it's probably best. If you're going to do the backdoor Roth ira, the best thing to do is to already have your money where it's already where it's going to be. Right. If you're going to do a traditional IRA contribution at Vanguard, have your money at Vanguard in your brokerage account. If you're going to do it at Fidelity, have the money at Fidelity, have it settled before the start of the year. That's the fastest way to do the Roth ira. With E Trade, I think you can do both the contribution and the conversion on January 2nd. Obviously, January 1st is a holiday with Schwab. If the money's already there, I think you can do both steps on January 2nd. With Vanguard, they make your way today. You do your contribution on January 2nd. You do your conversion on January 3rd. If you've already got the money at Fidelity, you can do that as well. If, if you don't, you might be doing the contribution on January 2nd, and you might be doing the conversion on, like, January 20th or something. Similar problem at Vanguard. They usually don't make you wait as long, but it's not unusual to wait 4, 5, 7 days. At Vanguard, if the money's not settled there, if it's coming from your bank account, you make your contribution January 2nd. And they're like, nope, you gotta wait till it settles before you can do your conversion. It's not the end of the world. Just means your money's gonna earn a few bucks in interest, and you can convert those dollars, too. That's not a big deal. Yes. You know, if it makes $7, you gotta pay tax on $7, but you can afford that, I assure you. All right, so hope that's helpful in sorting out backdoor Roth IRAs this year. This has been the Milestones to Millionaire podcast. We want you guys to come on this podcast. You can sign up, you can apply for it. Whitecoatinvestor.com Milestones. We'll celebrate any milestone with you. I don't care what it is. You, you bought a beater. You paid off a cat loan. I don't care. We'll celebrate your milestone with it. We'll find a way to use it to inspire others to accomplish their own milestones. So thank you for those we've had on this podcast. We've done 207 of these now, so we've had 207 of you on this podcast, a few of you twice telling us about your milestones. And we appreciate all the guests we've had. I know a lot of people out there have listened to every single one of these, and they find your stories inspiring. They're a few years behind you and want to accomplish what you've accomplished. Earlier, we mentioned working locums with Comp Health, the number one staffing agency. But Comp Health isn't just a locums agency. Comp Health staffs regular, permanent positions across the nation as well. They also offer telehealth, medical missions, and more. And that's what makes them unique. They can look at your situation and offer multiple solutions to build your career the way you want them and meet your financial goals. And they know their stuff, especially when it comes time to negotiate contracts, which they're willing to do for you. So whatever career move you're looking for, go to whitecodeinvestor.com compell and use the power of Comp Health to build your career your way. All right, that's it for this week. We'll see you next time next Monday with another Milestones to Millionaire podcast. Until then, keep your head up, shoulders back. You've got this. The whole community's standing here ready to help you. See you next time on the podcast. The hosts of the White Coat Investor are not licensed accountants, attorneys or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only.

[Dennis]

It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.