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White Coat Investor Podcast
MtoM #238: Hand Surgeon Becomes Multimillionaire and Finance 101: Annuities
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Today we are talking with a hand surgeon later in his career who has become a multimillionaire. This inspiring doc shared his successes as well as his mistakes on his journey to becoming financially secure. He is a great example of not having to do it...
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This is the White Coat Investor Podcast Milestones to Millionaire Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom. This is Milestones to Millionaire podcast number 238 hand surgeon becomes multimillionaire since April 2021, more than 650 physicians in the White Coat Investor community have invested over $300 million with DLP Capital, a 12 Time Inc. 5000 honoree that offers four private real estate investment funds. One of my favorite ways to invest in real estate. If you eager to achieve success as a private real estate investor, DLP's impact focused sponsored funds offer the potential to earn double digit returns while making an impact on America's affordable housing crisis. Interested in learning more? Head to whitecoatinvestor.com DLPToday welcome to the Milestones to Millionaire podcast. This is where we feature your stories and highlight what you've accomplished, the milestones you've reached, and use them to inspire others to do the same. You can apply to be on this podcast. Go to whitecoatinvestor.com Milestones we'd love to tell your story, or to have you tell your story rather, and see what lessons we can learn from it. Oh, by the way, today's the day. As this podcast drops, this thing drops September 1st. You know what today is? Today is the day to buy your WC icon 26 tickets. This is technically the start of the early bird ticket sale where you can get the best deal that goes until September 23rd. But let me be honest with you, the last time we had WC Icon in Las Vegas is sold out in 23 hours. Maybe this one's going to sell out too. You might not want to wait until September 23rd. We would love to have you there. This is going to be an awesome WC Icon. We are not in a hotel on the Strip. The Strip is not that far away. You can get there. If you want to go down there and do strip stuff. You want to see shows or strip stuff or go gambling or whatever, you can do that. You can get there. It'll be a short Uber ride. But we're not there. We're out in Summerlin. It's a great resort. There's going to be some awesome activities. We're actually going to be going around and doing some cool stuff that I love to do about Las Vegas, like getting out toward Red Rock and it's going to be pretty awesome. But it's, you know, the same cool stuff about every WC Icon, right? It's a chance to meet your people. It's a chance to, you know, learn about personal finance and investing. Maybe finally do that thing you haven't gotten around to doing yet, whatever that might be, and maybe make a few little tweaks to your financial plan. But a big chunk of the conference, right? This thing's called the Physician Wellness and Financial Literacy Conference. That wellness part is a big part of the conference. A lot of people say the best stuff they went to was the wellness anti burnout kind of stuff to help you not only do well while you're doing good, but to thoroughly enjoy your career and to be able to extend it as long as you need or want it to be extended. Okay, so early bird pricing. You get 300 bucks off an in person pass to the conference. It's $16.99 general because the regular price is $19.99. It's 21.99 premium. It gets you some other cool stuff, including coming to a pretty cool premium dinner we do there. The regular price on that is 24.99. So you're saving 300 bucks if you buy this before the 23rd. And it may be that everybody comes on the early bird pricing this year, especially if we sell out super fast again like we did the last time we were in Vegas. There is a meals and activities pass that doesn't include any sessions that's 599 general or 799 premium. That's specifically designed for your partner that wants to take this retreat with you but doesn't want to attend the sessions. If your spouse or significant other actually wants a full conference registration, we give you a 20% off that they have to be purchased together. Then you not only get an incredible retreat, but you get to learn together and meet other couples in the same stage as you. And most of all make those goals for your next step on your financial journey together. All right, so you can sign up for that at the website. You can go to wcievents.com there'll be links on the website. You'll see there. We'll put links in the show notes. Come, come to wcicon. It's going to be super fun. It's going to be awesome. I'm looking forward to meeting you. It's one of my favorite things to do all year is to talk to WCI in person, hear your stories, hear about your triumphs, hear about your challenges. And it really does affect the content we designed for the whole next year to try to help you to be financially successful. Okay. We have got a great interview today. It's one of my favorites that I've done in a long time. It's a doc in late career, and we don't get as many of those as I'd like to. We get all these people that are, you know, got back to broke, and that's great. We're thoroughly thrilled to celebrate you getting back to broke. Or we meet these people that are like super hardcore folks that are already multimillionaires at know year 8 out of residency or something. But the beautiful thing about this interview is this is somebody that's been at it for a long time, maybe didn't do everything perfectly right, but has still managed to be successful in the end. So take a listen to this. And because this gentleman also happens to own an annuity, I thought I'd spend some time talking about annuities afterward. Stick around afterward. We're going to talk about annuities. Our guest today on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast is Greg. Greg, welcome to the podcast.
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B
Thanks, Jim. Appreciate it. Glad to be here.
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A
You're in my favorite specialty right now, as podcast listeners know, I've been seeing a hand surgeon. And you are a hand surgeon?
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B
Yes, yes, Yes, I am. For 33 years.
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A
Tell us what part of the country you're in.
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B
In the Midwest.
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A
Okay, very cool. And tell us what milestone we're celebrating today. It's pretty remarkable what you've accomplished during your career.
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B
Yes, I'm excited. I've accomplished, or my wife and I, we've accomplished a net worth of close to 3.4, 3.5 million.
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A
Awesome. It's, as usual, increased a little bit since you first applied to be on the podcast. It always takes us a few weeks to get on, and when the market's good, the market's good. So.
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B
Absolutely, yes, sir.
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A
Congratulations to both of you. That's pretty awesome. Give us a sense of what your net worth's made up in, how much of it is your house and how much is, you know, investments, et cetera.
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B
Okay, good question. So I've been trying to do my homework in preparation for this, but it's made up of our houses, probably about $650,000, and it's paid off. And then the. The rest is made up of various investments. About 2.4, $2.5 million in terms of cash, and it's. It's spread out in terms of. I have. My company was bought by another company. Our hospital company was bought by another company, and we have about $640,000 in a 401k with this company, and then the other is cash in various accounts. With another, with another investment company. We are with Fidelity. Fidelity is the new company that assumed the 401k and so the funds are with them. So 401k is with them. And then the other 2.4 is with.
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A
Another company is mostly in some sort of tax protected accounts, some IRAs. A SEP IRA.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And at least a little bit in annuities.
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B
Yes, yes, yes, very much so. There's probably. I've come to learn more in annuities than I actually wanted after I learned about it, thanks to you.
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A
After people buy them, unfortunately.
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B
Exactly. And so I've been obviously reading a lot about it and as a matter of fact, I'm taking your fire. Your financial advisor, of course, actually right now and a little late in my career, but I'm taking it. And it's still very, very beneficial.
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A
Very cool. Very cool. Well, this is pretty awesome. I mean, you're a multimillionaire. When you were a kid, did you ever think you'd be a multimillionaire?
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B
Absolutely not.
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A
Tell us a little bit about your upbringing.
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B
So I'm the oldest of four siblings, grew up, mom divorced, remarried stepdad. We were never poor that I knew of. Right. We were never poor, but we had a modest upbringing. Family paid the bills and, you know, there were no vacations. They covered the expenses and that was that. You know, we, we went to church, got a job when I was a teenager and you know, work was an honorable thing. And so I've been working since I was about 15 or 16.
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A
How would you characterize your level of financial literacy when you came out of your medical training?
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B
Probably marginal. When I finished medical school, I was in about $100,000 of debt at the time. And that was in 1986. And it was very interesting. I was actually talking to my medical student about this earlier today and that I didn't know that much about it. And when I would ask people about it, even trainers, no one had much to tell me. And once I went into practice, after I finished my fellowship, we had an old senior doctor in the cafeteria who I talked to about finances. And he said, basically he said, the ownership is on me. I'm responsible for my own retirement. Don't listen to what other people tell you and take control of my life.
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A
And tell us how you've implemented that advice over the last few decades.
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B
Well, I tried to become financially literate. I even asked some of my colleagues. We would, for example, be at an orthopedic meeting and I would say, hey, what do you know about investments and Things like that, or who are you following in terms of investment? And one of my colleagues actually practices in Dayton, Ohio. And he said, white coat Investor. And I said, oh, I don't know about them. And so at that point in time, I did like everybody else do. I looked up the information, subscribed, and started paying attention. I will admit, before you came along, probably, I started listening to Dave Ramsey. And I had a patient in my office who was reading a book and the Total Money Makeover. And I asked her about the book, and this was around 2019. And I said, what do you know about the book? What do you like about the book? And she says, well, he tells you about financing and investing and getting out of debt. I said, do you like the book? She said, yes. And so we were on a trip to Hawaii, my wife and I, and I read the majority of the book on the way to Hawaii, and my wife said, it must be a pretty good book. You've never paid this much attention to a book. Right. And so I started following Dave or listening to Dave, and then I started following you around the same year, actually around, I think it might have been 2019 or something like that.
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A
Very cool. So did Dave talk you into paying off all your debts? You know what?
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B
I was on that trend ahead of time. My financial advisor at the time told me, he said that I should pay off my house, but before he told me that I actually was already making an extra principal payment per month. It just made sense to me. And I was paying an extra, honestly, an extra four or five thousand dollars a month. And then I refinanced it and ultimately paid it off in 2019.
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A
Very cool. Now, is your. Is your wife also employed, working. What does her contribution to this look like?
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B
Well, my wife is a retired educator, loving supporter wife, and a retired educator. And she retired in 2009. And so her fixed income is her retirement pension from the school system.
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A
Very cool. So how have you guys worked together on your finances over the years?
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B
Well, that's an interesting point because we are both, I don't mind saying this, we're both alpha personalities, and we've been married about 25 years almost. And I talked about combining finances, and so we get together to go over things on a regular basis. But we have sort of a his, hers and ours account, and my name's on her account, and her name's on my account, and it's really not my account, obviously. And that's the way it works. And, you know, we reconcile things together and it works out pretty well, give.
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A
Us a sense of what your household income has ranged from over the last three decades.
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B
Over the last three decades, probably between $500,000 and $600,000, including when she was working full time.
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A
Okay, so pretty good income most of that time. And do you have any idea how much of that was going toward savings or paying off debt or building wealth most of that time?
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B
Probably not enough. It probably was not enough. It's in both of our second marriages. And so I. We married 25 years ago and I've been in practice 33 years. So not enough until later on. I started being really, really committed once I started paying off the debt, I didn't have really good advice early on. And so I was doing what I thought doctors should do, things that you talk about doing, like buying cars, taking trips and things like that. But I sort of changed my ways in terms of some of those things. And now we're debt free and it's a wonderful feeling.
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A
Very cool. Well, congratulations to you. It's pretty awesome what you guys have accomplished and it demonstrates a lot of important, less, I think, you know, you don't have to be perfect, but eventually you got to figure it out and do a few things right. And if you do that and combine that with the high income of a doctor, it usually works out pretty well.
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B
Exactly, exactly. It really does. But learn to pay ourselves first. And you know, we certainly commit to our church. We do a fair amount of giving as you do as well. And you know, things have worked out well. You know, we have 10 grandkids, the joy of our life. And we, you know, we have two kids. Two of those kids, one is in college and we help them with their 529s and so, you know, we're there to kind of help them out. And, and interesting thing I was telling my student earlier today, we have a 19 year old grandson who's in college at one of the colleges in our region and started a 529 for him. And, and we've given him some financial literacy books already and talking to him, he. And he's taken it on pretty well.
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A
Very cool. All right, so let's say you've got a medical student in your office like you do today, or there's a bunch of them out there. They want to be successful like you. They want to get to the end of their career and be a multimillionaire. What advice do you have for them?
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B
Pretty simple. One, live on less than you make, obviously, and ask questions, be engaged. I wrote down on my paperwork Here, subscribe to the White Coat Investor. Honestly, I applaud what you have done for those of us that are in this space, for the students and physicians and doctors, engineers, et cetera, it's very, very valuable information. But become financially literate. Don't listen to everything that everybody tells you. Don't buy a doctor house too soon. We did not do that, but I talked to a lot of my students and my residents who finish and find out a couple of years later they've, you know, bought, you know, $900,000 house and their forever house that they're not going to be in forever and things like that. But one of the things is that when I'm a program director, a former program director, and so when students come on my service, believe it or not, I asked them all the time, I said, do you know who Jim Dali is? Have you ever heard of the White Coat Investor? And they said, you know, young lady said today, she said, oh, yeah, yo, Yeah, I follow him. I said, good. And so I bring it up all the time, but I've given lectures to the house staff as well, and so I'm actively involved in trying to pass the word along.
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A
Very cool. Well, thank you for what you're doing, not only for medical students in their financial education, but also in your clinical practice. Obviously, your hand surgeons are near and dear to my heart this year, so I appreciate what you're doing. All right, well, what's next for you in your financial goals? You got retirement plans ever? Or are you going for financial independence, or what's your next goal you're working toward?
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B
Well, I'm probably older than you think. I've been in practice 33 years, and we're in a good place financially. And now I don't really know how to turn it off, in a sense of my schedule has slowed down some. I had some shoulder surgery a year and a half ago, so some things are a little more technically difficult, but I'd like to work toward a net worth of about 5 million. But I don't know if I'm going to make it because I think I'm going to probably slow down and do some teaching at the university level or something like that.
- [16:44]
A
Well, the beautiful thing about what you've already done is you now have a whole bunch of money working with you toward that. Yes. So just a little bit of time may help you achieve what you're hoping to achieve, even without a lot of additional contribution from you. So well done, and thank you for being willing to come on the podcast and Share your story to inspire others.
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B
Well, thank you very much. I'm really excited and honored to be your guest. Thank you so much.
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A
Okay. I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. It's really fun to do late career milestones, especially with the great doc. And, in fact, he was having a little bit trouble getting connected initially with all the tech junk you got to do to get on this podcast. And he had a medical student in the office, and she helped him out. So we're going to send her a book for helping him get on the podcast, because I thought it was a really great interview, and I'm glad we took the time to do it. All right, I promised you we were going to talk about annuities. All right. Annuities are almost a bad word in the personal finance space, right? Because the vast majority of them are products designed to be sold, not bought. And that's a problem because there's a whole bunch of people out there hawking them. So they get commissions on them and they hawk them in all kinds of different ways. Radio shows seem to be popular in seminars, and steak dinners seem to be popular ways to sell these things to retirees and near retirees. The truth is that not every annuity is bad. And there are purposes for some annuities in some financial plans. And so it's worth knowing what they are, at least in general. And if you're in one of those situations where it might make sense for you, it might even be worth buying one. So let's talk about annuities. They come in a lot of different flavors, but all of them are some sort of an insurance product, right? With some sort of investment characteristic. At its most basic level, an annuity is just a pension purchased from an insurance company. You give the company a lump sum, and in return, it pays you a guaranteed amount every month or every year until you die. So, as an insurance product, the company generally pays a commission to the agent selling it to you. That agent, unfortunately, often masquerades as a financial advisor. But at least while selling you, the annuity is functioning as a salesperson and not an unbiased advisor. So that's important to understand that the annuity is also backed by the insurance company. So if the insurance company goes away, so does the annuity and its guarantees, except as provided by a state insurance guarantee organization, which generally only protects a limited amount of an annuity's value. So, as a general rule, it's best to think of an annuity, at least the classic buy a pension from insurance company annuity as a way to spend your money, not as a way to invest it. The investment returns are generally not that good, but the purchaser finds the guarantees to be valuable. So how did annuities get taxed? Not very well is the bottom line. It depends on whether it's inside or outside of a retirement account. If it's in a retirement account, it gets taxed the same way as a retirement account, right? If you buy it with Roth IRA money, all the proceeds, like everything else that comes out of the Roth IRA is tax free. If you buy it in a tax deferred account, all the proceeds when they come out are tax deferred, right? So that means you pay taxes on them at ordinary income tax rates when the money comes out of the account. If you buy it with taxable money, that's a little bit different, has its own unique taxation, right? So part of the monthly payout is interest and part is the tax free return of your principal. That interest is paid at ordinary income tax rates. There's a ratio of this principal payout to the total payout. That's called the exclusion ratio. Now, if you decide to just like surrender an annuity and just take the money out of an annuity, basically you pay taxes on all of the earnings at ordinary income tax rates. You also are probably paying a penalty because these are designed for retirement, so you've taken them out before age 59 and a half. You're also paying a 10% penalty on those earnings, plus ordinary income tax rates on any earnings. So it's not a great thing to buy if you're going to surrender this thing before age 59 and a half. But growth inside the annuity is tax deferred, so you don't pay any taxes on any interest, dividends or capital gains or whatever inside the while the money is still in the annuity only when you withdraw. Keep in mind though, that it takes many years of tax deferred growth, okay? Especially if the asset inside the annuity is relatively tax efficient to make up for the fact that when you take the money out, you pay ordinary income tax rates on the earnings, not lower capital gains rates, long term capital gains rates and lower qualified dividend rates. Okay? So what's the problem with annuities? The main problem with annuities, it's the same problem I have with whole life insurance. It's the way it gets sold, okay? And as I said earlier, it tends to be a financial product that's sold, not one that's bought. And so it's often sold Inappropriately, it's sold to people that are by making them afraid of higher returning, but maybe more volatile investments like the stock market or real estate. It's also sold by pointing out the cool bells and whistles added onto the annuity and by making people afraid of paying taxes. Those are kind of the ways it gets sold. Unfortunately, those bells and whistles are often not worth what you pay for them. And they also make it difficult to compare one annuity to another in any sort of fair way. And the worst part about it is people are often convinced to exchange from one annuity to another to another to another. And of course, each time you do that, you generate a new commission for the agent. That, of course, has to come from your returns. And the commissions on these things are typically in the 1% to 10% range. So if you put $100,000 in there, that person's probably getting 5000 or 6000 or $7000 or something to sell it to you. The more complex the annuity, the higher the commission tends to be. If you're buying the good annuities, the single premium immediate annuities, or SPIAs, that commission might only be 1% to 3%. But more complex ones can definitely be higher. And they're built into the price of the annuity. Right? So you're not writing a separate check for it, but the money's going from you to the agent either way. Okay, so are they a good investment or not? Well, what are the reasonable uses for an annuities is probably what we ought to talk about. I mentioned a SPIA single premium immediate annuity. This is giving a lump sum to an insurance company in exchange for a stream of income, a guaranteed stream of income until you die. So they might pay you, depending on your age and interest rates, and they might be paying you 6 or 8%, often something higher than a 4% safe withdrawal rate. But there's no money left over when you die, number one. And number two, they're usually not indexed to inflation. Like, you might be able to index withdrawals from a more traditional portfolio. But the beautiful thing about this is this puts a floor under your income, your retirement income, your spending, etc. You've already got a floor with Social Security, but this adds something to it. So it's not crazy to put some money into these things to raise that amount of guaranteed spending that you can do in retirement. And, you know, even if you live till you're 93 or 103, you won't run out of money, because this thing's still going to be paying. So some people do buy a SPIA with some of their retirement money, and that's a totally reasonable thing to do, especially if you're borderline on saving enough or maybe didn't quite save save enough. The one big downside here, right, is you give them a lump sum of money in exchange for that payment stream. If you die three months later, the lump sum's still gone. So you're not leaving any of this money behind your heirs. You're using it to buy that income stream. And you also got to be a little bit careful about not buying these things too early. Right? You know, rates change over time, so you got to look up current rates. But if you buy it at age 50, you might only get 4% a year out of it. Whereas if you could wait till 60 or 65 or 70, you can get a much higher rate, 6 or 8% plus. So most people tend to buy these in the 65 to 75 year old range. Bear in mind, if you're in a particularly low interest rate environment, you might not be getting an awesome deal on them. Whereas if interest rates just went up a whole bunch, might be a good time to kind of consider buying an annuity and locking in that income stream at a little bit higher rate. So who are these things ideal for someone who does not want to take much risk with their investments? If you got all the money in bonds anyway, well, these are going to return about as much as that over the long term. Someone who needs permission to spend the rest of their portfolio. Right. By locking in this floor under your spending, this gives you a chance to say, oh, well, I can spend more on a trip to Europe or take the kids on a cruise or upgrade this car or something, whatever. Because you know, you've got the mandatory spending covered with the SPIA and your Social Security. Also somebody who needs some permission to take risk with the rest of their portfolio. If you feel like you can put more money into stocks or real estate or whatever, because you got the SPIA covering the low risk stuff, then that might help you to stay the course with a little bit more aggressive investment portfolio. And then of course, those who don't have quite enough money, it can be a great way to be able to spend as much as you possibly can in a guaranteed way without running out of money. You know, that's who I think these are particularly good for. Okay. The second type of annuity that might be a reasonable purchase is called the deferred Income annuity or a dia. And the best Way to think about this is as longevity insurance, even more than a spia, because with the dia, when you give the insurance company the money, you don't start getting payments immediately, you don't get them for a while. And you can vary how long that while is. It might be five years or 10 years or 20 years or whatever, whatever. But the point is, because you don't get paid for a while, if you live long enough to actually get the payments, they can be really big. Okay, so let me give you an example. This is from when I wrote a post a few years ago. And this was when interest rates were lower. If you bought a DIA at age 60 that didn't start paying you until 90, it would actually pay you over 60% of what you put into that annuity. Right. So you put $100,000 in and it would pay you $6,100 a month. Right. I mean, that's over 70%, I suppose. Right. So by letting it sit there for a while and letting most of the people who buy it die, you can get really high payouts. So it functions as this longevity insurance. If you do happen to live to 90, you know, you got a whole bunch more money coming that's going to help you take care of whatever your expenses are at that point. And you can set that up so it's, you know, buy them at 40 and it pays out at 70, or buy it at 60 and it pays out at 65 or 80 or whatever. You can buy them in any kind of different amounts. So that's a reasonable thing to do. And those rates are probably even a little bit higher now than they were when I last priced them in 2021. Okay. Another type of this is called a QLAC qualified longevity annuity contract. All that is is the DIA, a deferred income annuity inside a retirement account. Okay. It's not really a new type of annuity, it's just a DIA and Secure Act 2.0 made some changes to how much of that you can buy. It's a little bit easier to buy these with retirement accounts than it used to be if you want this sort of longevity insurance. Okay. Another type, a third type of reasonable uses for an annuity is, is what's called a myga, my G A a multi year guaranteed annuity. And the way to think about this is as a CD alternative. If you're buying CDs with part of your money because you really like that low risk kind of investment, you might want to consider mygas instead. Often the rate is A little bit higher than you can get with the cd. And the cool thing about it is if you don't want, you know, as it pays interest, as it makes money, as long as you're not taken out of the annuity, you don't have to pay taxes on it, right? Whereas the CD is going to pay you every, whatever, every month, every quarter or whatever, and you have to pay taxes on it as it grows. That's not the case with a myga. And when you get to the end of the term, whatever it is, one year or five years or whatever, you can exchange it into another MYGA and not pay taxes on it. So it's a little bit different from how CDs work, right? They're getting taxed all the time as they go along. Mygas do not. And so some people choose that, that is what they want to invest in for that very safe portion of their portfolio. And I think that's a reasonable thing to do for any money that you need longer, for a period longer than a couple of years from now. But you don't want to risk any principal with this is probably a better option in a lot of ways than CDs or buying a Treasury bond directly or something like that. So something to consider. Okay, the last one is a low cost variable annuity. Now, the variable ones definitely fall on the more complex side of annuities with the attendant higher commissions and other fees and difficult to understand structures. But there's two reasonable uses for variable annuities. And both of them, of course, require you to find a low cost variable annuity, which most of them aren't. Vanguard did them for a while, they've gotten out of the business. And Jefferson national was doing them for a while, but they got bought out by Nationwide. So I think most people doing this are actually looking at fidelity these days. But people might buy them to exchange out of a whole life policy. If you got some cash value that's a lot less than your basis, maybe you exchange it to a variable annuity and that allows it to grow back to basis tax free. And then you surrender the annuity and it's making lemons out of lemonade for sure. But some people do that when they're getting out of a whole life policy they never should have bought. And the second is if you have a really tax inefficient investment that you can't fit into your retirement accounts. Classically that might be a REIT fund or maybe it's your tips or something like that, you really don't want it in your taxable account. So you decide I can get this low cost variable annuity and the fees on the annuity will be less than the the taxation might be on this investment. That's not a crazy thing to do either. But you don't want to be buying most variable annuities. You don't want to be buying fixed index annuities. You don't want to be buying super complex annuities. These are products made to be sold. Avoid them. Somebody tries to talk your parents into them, talk them out of them. If they want to be buying annuities, you need to make sure they're getting the right kind for whatever they're not need happens to be and it's probably a very straightforward spia. You can compare to other spias and make sure they're getting the best deal possible. Okay, I think we beat annuities to death. It's not crazy if you have one. If you happen to buy one like I suspect Greg did, that may not have been the best thing. Now you got a different question, right? How best should I use this? And it might be exchanging it into a spia or something like that might be the best of your annuity at that point. You can also exchange them into long term care insurance if that happens to be right for you. I don't think that's probably right for Greg. I think he's probably wealthy enough he can self insure that risk. But if it's right for you, that might make some sense as well. All right, our sponsor for this episode is DLP Capital, trusted by more than 3,500 accredited investors in all 50 states. And as of March 31, 2025, DLP Capital's strategic focus on attainable workforce housing in fast growing Sunbelt markets gives you the pot to earn consistent monthly income, diversify away from stocks and bonds and generate double digit returns. DLP's current offerings include both private credit and equity strategies, making it easy to find the right fit for your risk tolerance and investment goals. And don't forget, DLP offers lower investment minimums exclusively for white coat investors. Discover more@whitecoatinvestor.com DLP all right, thanks for being a milestone millionaire listener. It's interesting, I find that these are not quite as popular as the regular white coat investor podcasts that drop on Thursdays, but hopefully I enjoy doing them at least as much and so I hope more and more people enjoy listening to them as well. Certainly there's a lot of inspiring stories we hear on them and hopefully in the last year or so when we've been adding some additional information to them. This kind of back to basics approach has been well received by those of you out there in podcast land. Thanks for what you do. Keep your head up and shoulders back. You've got this. We'll see you next time on the podcast. 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