← Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood
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- [00:10]
Samantha
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- [01:00]
Katy Charlwood
Acast helps creators launch, grow and mine monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.
- [01:09]
Lisa
Hey, do you want to hear the next big new tech podcast hit before anyone else, check out the daily tech news show Experiment Week. We're swapping out our normal shows to try out some new ideas. We've done this before and launched big hits like behind the Data, the Tech John and more. This year we have exclusive Android faithful reactions to the Pixel 9 event. It's all on the DTNS feed, so starting August 11th, don't miss it.
- [01:41]
Katy Charlwood
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com hello delicious friends, and welcome to who did what now, the history podcast. That's not your history class with me, your host, Katy Charlwood, history harlot and reader of books. So there's a lot going on at the moment. And this isn't even like my life. This is just in the world at time of recording the Madeleine, which is the aid flotilla, the humanitarian aid flotilla that is trying to get humanitarian aid in to Palestine, right? It has been intercepted, the crew have been kidnapped and they're putting out all these like propaganda photos of like, oh, we gave them sandwiches and it's like, yeah, they're on an entire flotilla of aid, which is going to include food. You don't think they brought food? Really? So they did that. On top of that, like, here's, here's the thing. Here's, here's the thing. Israel are reporting that they've stopped the selfie yacht, which is such a weird way to phrase humanitarian aid flotilla. What? And then on top of this, we have Los Angeles. So basically ICE agents who as federal agents should have, like, a badge number and a name, and you should be able to hold them accountable for their actions. Yeah, isn't that how this works? Like, isn't that a thing? Anyway, so they're trying to kidnap people in Los Angeles. And the good citizens of Los Angeles have decided that they don't want that happening. And so they are just making, like, human barriers to stop them, you know, kidnapping and detaining their friends, family, neighbors. Right. And so they are peacefully protesting. And, like, there's. There's been nothing, Nothing happening. Congressmen and congresswomen, sorry, members of Congress, I suppose is the best term, have been trying to get into detention centers to see people. Because legally, you cannot stop a member of Congress from seeing their constituents even if they're being detained. Like, that's just the law. And they keep being turned away, which is, like, illegal. So that's a whole situation. But, yeah, they're like, they sent in the National Guard, like, as if they're wanting an escalation. And there was an Australian journalist, like, you can see the video. They aim at her. They take aim and they shoot her, which is like, with a rubber bullet. And here's the thing, rubber bullets are meant to be deterrence. You're never supposed to aim at a person with a rubber bullet. The whole purpose of a rubber bullet is to hit the ground, and it's supposed to bounce up and hit them in the leg. It's supposed to be, like, annoying. It's supposed to force people to move. It's not supposed to be used as a bullet. Like, you're not supposed to aim it at a person. Like, that's not a thing. Take it from someone who's, you know, troubles adjacent, you know, like, it's just. It's just across the road that come from Donegal. Like, this is stuff we know, you know, and it is. It is wild that this is happening right now. And don't get me started on the. The Elon Musk Trump. So that shows you how, like, how insane this all is, because my brain is not computing it. Like, they're having, like, a breakup of sorts, and they're just, like, admitting to the crimes that they, like, they were in cahoots doing. And it is just chaos. And there's possibly going to be like a massive attack on Ukraine from Russia after they did that. Just amazing. Just sneak attack and bombed everything. But yes, yes, that is, that is the world right now. And so, so there's a lot happening. And who knows what. What will have happened by the time this episode Is out like that is wild. But yes, sure, I know what you're thinking Katie. Quit your jibber jabber. In fact me infact you I will. But first we've gotta get our source on. And our sources are suits me. The Double Life of Billy Tipton by Diane Middlebrook. The Strange Story of Billy Tipton by Kit Boss. Billy Tipton Self Made man by Sally Lehrman. Billy Tipton by John Yanis. And of course we have our old favourites, biography.com. are you sitting comfortably? Good. Then let's begin. So it is Pride month and obviously I want to focus this month on LGBTQIA people. So last week we had Louisa May Alcott, who I am fairly convinced was asexual. And that is my personal belief. And many other historians back this up. Or you know, back me up. Well not me personally, but back this theory up. Maybe some of them back me up. Whoms to say. And so this week I want to talk about Billy Tipton who was a jazz person. That's a jazz person. And they were trans man. Now the biographer from the 1998, 1999 biography suits me only refers to Billy as a woman and says that basically Billy pretended to be a man to get forward in life. But as far as I'm concerned, that biographer was a dick. So screw you Diane Middlebrook. Cuz here's the thing, there's a difference between like cross dressing just to get ahead and then living your life as a man. Like that's a very different thing and it's very demeaning and detrimental I think to the trans community. To try and paint them in such a light, I think feels like it's an attempt to unintentionally or not, but invalidate, you know, their personhood. And I'm not about that. So yeah. Billy Lee Tipton was born on 29 December 1914 in Oklahoma City. In Oklahoma. I know you're shocked. And they started life as Dorothy, which is the one and only time I will use the dead name. Billy's parents divorced when he was four, after which he was not raised by either parent. Instead he and his younger brother were brought up by his aunt in Kansas City, Missouri. Listen, it is what it is. He attended South West High School where he was not allowed to join the band because it was boys only. He was however allowed in the orchestra. And like he grows up like loving music. Like both his parents played the piano and so he kind of already had sort of musicality in the family. I was like the, the family, like this is A big jazz era. And they loved listening to like cakewalk blues, ragtime and such. And he has a radio in his bedroom so he can listen to jazz anytime. And I should probably clarify that the Tiptons are white. This is a white family. And I know that you might think, well, it sounds like they could be people of colour. They do sound like that. But no, no, these jazz loving honkies just, they just love jazz. And so his aunt played piano as well. So you know, this would come in handy over the years. So like he gets called Tippy throughout school and he ends up returning to Oklahoma to complete his final year. So he's at Connors State College High School, which confused me because I'm like, high school, state college, what? Because I clearly do not understand the American education system. So yeah, he's there at Connor State College High School where he did join the band. And when Billy's about like 19 or so, he starts like binding his breasts and starts acting a bit more masculine, shall we say. Like he's living with his mum, they're back home in Oklahoma and she's not doing great financially, you know, because the Great Depression is happening, which is typically not a great time, you know, economically for a lot of people. And so he's there, he's there living with her in Oklahoma. And he has brought his saxophone because like Tippy Hill, he would play the saxophone, the piano and the violin. What is the difference between a violin and a fiddle? Is there like, is it a string thing? It feels like it's a string thing. So he's looking for work in a band because he wants to like start raking in some money. And so he's doing odd bits in like orchestra radio spots or even like playing music during the interval at a movie theater, which honestly I think they should bring back intervals because if the snacks weren't so expensive, right, you'd get more. So you'd go back and buy more snacks because there'd be an interval. It'd be a good time for everybody, wouldn't it? Yeah, especially during those damn long movies like Break up the Day. So Billy is actively trying to get work as a musician. However, Billy at this point is still a bit female presenting. So work was a little tougher because some of the places that we're hiring didn't want to hire women. And so Billy gets some work at a honky tonk bar, Greenland. But this didn't last long. And you might be saying to yourself, a bar? What about Prohibition? Because like Great Depression Prohibition, they're all interlinked, right? And everyone has heard me rant and rave about how much I love wine bricks. They are my favourite thing that has ever existed in the history of history. Like, I love it. So Prohibition is a period of time where you could not sell or purchase alcohol for, like, most of the country. Like the U.S. however, you could get beer in Oklahoma City as long as it was 3.3% or below. So it had to have a 3.3% alcohol content or less in order for you to be able to, like, purchase and consume. And by 1935, Billy is male presenting, you know, wearing men's clothes. The chest is bound and their hair is cut. Now, this wasn't a Mrs. Doubtfire moment. He wasn't just pulling clothes out of a closet, you know, because by now Billy was living with two female cousins and his aunt. He wasn't living with his brother. So he would have had to go and either get male clothing or have male clothing made. It had to be tailored. It had to fit. Like, this is pretty, like, department store. I mean, some department stores existed, but this was pre, you know, clothes off the rack. The majority of your clothing was made. That being said, all clothing is handmade. Like, all clothing is handmade because machines, like, they're not doing a French seam, you know, like, that is a person who has made your clothes, they are just skilled and have made them. Well, unfortunately, a lot of those people who are making your clothes are not paid appropriately. And I shouldn't have to tell you this sidebar, but you should not be paying like three bucks for a T shirt because the material alone is worth more of that. Like, the only way you can get a T shirt for three bucks is one if it's secondhand or, like, more likely that it's the result of slave labor. Anyhow, Billy had to have clothes made to fit him. Like, that's the be all and end all the situation. And so he goes out and tries to get work as a jazz musician, but as a male one. And his family not too happy about this. One aunt travels to see him to try and get him to stop. His father straight up disowns him. Are we surprised? No, absolutely not. Of course we're not. And his mum, she's like, kind of okay with it. And so, like, she's basically fine because he's earning money. And they're like, it's fine. So Billy ends up moving out of home and into a boarding house. And eventually his mum remarries and Billy visits her, like, every now and Again, like, there's a lot of, you know, visitation and communication. Like, they seem fairly chill with this scenario. So Billy gets some good saxophone work playing in house bands and clubs and all that jazz. Hang on. Anyway, Nobele. He wasn't just a great musician. He wasn't just talented with, you know, the ivory keys. Like, playing the fiddle. Sorry, violin, The. I was gonna say trumpet. Like, as far as I know, he doesn't play the trumpet, but, like, the saxophone, the piano, and, you know, the violin. Not only is he just, like, a gifted musician, but he's also, like, a really good performer. Like, he's funny, he's ad libbing, he can crack jokes. Like, he's really good at entertaining a crowd. Like, he's just a really good entertainer. And so he's in Oklahoma City for, what, six years, making his living, you know, performing, like, as a man. Like, as a jazz man, which sounds, like, amazing until you remember that Billy Tipton grew up in this city. And so there was a whole plethora of people who knew Billy before they were male presenting, which caused him issues. The best way I can describe it, like, in the jazz scene, like, he was doing well, but he was never going to do as well as he could staying there. And so in 1941, Billy upsticks and moves to Joplin, Missouri. And so he moves there without anyone knowing his history, knowing his past. And so they only know Billy as he is from that moment on. And from that moment on, Billy lives his life as a man, which, as I said before, would be an incredibly peculiar thing to do if this was just, you know, to get work. And wasn't your life who you were, who you are? And like Belly would exclusively have relationships with women, like Belly lived their entire life Azaman. And to think this is just like some sort of, you know, trick to get work, like, is very extreme when you've been disowned by members of your family, when it's incredibly dangerous for you. And I'm fairly certain. Was it illegal? I feel like it was illegal. Depending on the state, it may have been illegal. But, yes, Billy Lee Tipton was Billy Lee Tipton.
- [19:09]
Samantha
Say hello to Samantha.
- [19:10]
Katy Charlwood
Hi there.
- [19:11]
Samantha
Samantha built a SaaS platform that helps small businesses manage their workflow. But she needed a smarter way to reach decision makers.
- [19:18]
Katy Charlwood
That's where ACAST came in. They helped me produce a professional audio ad which played to business owners and ops leads using their audience attributes targeting tools. Suddenly, my platform was showing up in the ears of the exact people I needed to reach.
- [19:30]
Samantha
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- [19:34]
Katy Charlwood
Solve a real problem and make sure the right people hear about it.
- [19:38]
Samantha
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- [19:48]
Katy Charlwood
Hey Tipton. He has moved to Joplin, Missouri and he has joined a band. Not just any band, but a band with. What are the names? These names are Wild George Mayer and his music. So rare. It's an eight piece band fronted by. This is gonna surprise you, George Mayer. Oh yeah. And Billy, he's playing the saxophone, he's playing the piano, not the violin. I'm not sure it's jazz violin even a thing. I don't really know that much about jazz. But anyway he's playing for these like professional bands. He's playing in clubs and whatnot. And so obviously the music that he's playing is like the popular music of the day. And so it's quite sophisticated and it's, it's all good. But Billy is feeling uninspired because he really wants to challenge himself as a jazz musician and he's not getting that chance because he's playing just like the common music of the era. But like he's, he's known for being a saxophone player which is really interesting because he's fine. Like he's a good saxophone player, right? He's good. But the piano, he's really good at piano. The violin is eh, kind of meh. But like he is so good at the piano and he would do stuff like play the piano with his left hand and then also accompany himself on the saxophone, which a saxophone is, is an instrument. Like again, I'm not a big music person. I don't really get it. No, that I don't get it. I don't, I don't know how to play an instrument. Like it's a whole thing. But as far as I'm aware the saxophone is an instrument that one needs two hands to play. So he's like one handed saxophone, one handed piano, which is like, it's a bit of a gag but, but also that's quite impressive though, I'm not going to deny. So he knows how to perform and put on an act. And so him and George Mayer, they develop an act together which is going to be kind of typical of what Bali's acts will be like from that point on. So it's a lot of like music and stuff to like dance to. I'm doing like chicken wings right now. Like I'm doing the chicken wing movement because apparently that's what I think the dancing movement is. So I was like, I was gonna be like the Ragtime, the Charleston, like, they're doing all these bits. As if the Charleston isn't like 10 years before, 20 years before. That's Shut up. So there's a lot of music and like, in between their sort of comedy skits, like Belly called it monkey business, there's lots of monksy business, like comedy and impressions and stuff. Like, it's like, if you've ever listened to an old Rat Pack, like, cd, it's the best thing I can, I can compare it to is like, I say CD as if the Rat Pack was recording onto CDs and not LPs. Like, but I actually had a Rat Pack LP, not an LP, a CD for a long time. It was my mum's. I stole it and it was. It was a show. And so, like, there is a bet. And like, they're Rylan, like Sammy Davis Jr. And Dean Martin and they're all kind of like just being like sketchy and silly and like, in some of their jokes made me laugh so hard. Because sometimes comedy can transcend. Like something can. Sometimes something can be funny in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, and still be funny in the next millennium. Right? Sometimes it can. Okay, listen, humans are simple creatures. At the end of the day, sometimes we just want a good laugh. And sometimes your comedy is clever enough to do so. So, yeah, that would be part of, like, this act that Billy and George would do. So also in 1941, I don't know if you know this, but the USA entered the Second World War and you had the draft. So people would be drafted to see people. Men would be drafted into the army and effectively every able bodied man was supposed to be, like, taken in, like, drafted. Now you were supposed to have your draft card on you at all times, just in case. Because it was a whole thing. Like. Like the concept of shame is something a lot of people just don't get nowadays. But, like, your reputation would make or break you in life. Like, your word was your bond. If you had a shitty reputation, you would be screwed. Like. Like, you may as well, you know, take a long walk off a short pier. Like, there's a whole thing about it. Like, shame was such a massive cultural issue and now we don't have shame at all. Nobody knows shame, not even the Catholics. And we, like, breathe it, you know. I see. As if I'm not a recovering Catholic. But yet you had your draft card on you. And if you didn't if you were, like, dodging the draft, like, it was a huge issue, like, you would be seen as less than. And however, Billy here manages to get his doctor to give him a 4F card, which basically means you are, like, too, like, wrong to go to war. Like, you're too sick. You've got, I don't know, foot spills and osteoporosis and, like, all the other stuff. No, it's the reason, and I can't believe I'm bringing this up, that in Captain America First Avenger, it's the reason that Steve Rogers wasn't allowed, like, to join. So, like, which is funny because, like, Steve Rogers is always, like, trying to. To join the war and to be a hero. And Bucky Barnes got drafted, which is wild when you think about it, because Bucky Barnes just got forced into every fight he's ever, like, been in. He's sort of, like, been pulled into it, whereas, like, Steve just, like, jumped into it. Anyway, that's another story for another day. Sorry, ex comic store owner habit. But yes, Billy has the 4F card. So it's like, you're too sick and frail to go to war. We don't want you. That being said, some doctors would just be like, hey, I will just sign you as being sick if you pay me. Like, so. I mean, and so, like, here's the thing about this. Billy is going to get questioned about, like, why they haven't been drafted. Like, he has his we card and whatnot, which is fine, but he also needs to, like, talk about it. Like, he needs to explain it because he's going to get questioned. And so he uses this, like, very opportune, right? He uses this to explain a few other things about himself. Like, he says he was in a car accident and that his ribs were injured. And, like, this is the past. So, of course people are like, okay, that makes sense. And so he says due to the specific injuries on his ribs, he is required to wear, like, these special bandages for support, thus sort of covering up the binding of the breast. So the boobs are bound, the bandages on the chest. And so any sort of peculiar, if there was any shape su there, it's like, oh, well, that's just because of the injuries to my ribs and the chest. Bending is not the only thing that he's covering up here. Like, it's not the only concept that he's come up with. He also uses this as the reason why he can't have biological children. He's like, my genitalia was also damaged in the car accident. Anyway, now that we've covered that, Billy would travel, like, with the band, and they would travel around and do gigs in places. So they'd stay in hotels and motels and boarding houses and whatnot. Now, Billy, being a really cool dude, had two dogs, and he would sometimes refer to them as his kids in order to, like, sneak them into the hotel room or the motel or whatever. He'd be like, I'm booking in. Oh, and I got two kids in the car. And they're like, we don't care. Take your key and go. And so he'd be like, come on, boys. And sometimes when they were traveling, like, they would go with other acts and they would perform together. And sometimes they would work with a female magician, Dalla Del. And she was known as the femagician, which is a name that was a choice. And they're like, look, she's a magician and a woman who knew. And so she would travel with, like, a bunch of animals. Like, she had her own menagerie. So she would have, like, skunks and monkeys and rabbits and chickens, and they would just be, like, running around. She would, like, just let them loose in her hotel room. Like, oh, yeah, let's just have the skunk and the chickens run around wild. That's fine. I mean, here's the thing. I feel like, sure, the rabbits and the chickens or the monkey, like, that does make sense. Like, on their own. This skunk, though, this skunk. Why are we letting the skunk run around? Although, that being said, I feel like I might be being mean to skunks. Like, do they automatically spray you? I. I need to talk to, like, a zoologist or a vet or something, because, like, do they automatically spray you? Should we, like, automatically be worried about being skunked? Like, is that. Is that a reasonable fear? Or is it, like, finding. Is it. Is it that hard to get off? I've never been skunked, so I don't know. You know what? I bet you those. That's a really weird, like, kink thing. There's a weird terminology called being skunked. And it's probably vile, it's probably horrific. And I'm like, I have never been skunked. And someone's gonna use that as a soundbite for something in, like, 10 years time. And they're gonna be like, remember when you said this kitty? Oh, my God, I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get in such trouble. I can sense it in my bones. My old, old lady bones. So she's Causing chaos with this whole fucking menagerie, right? And so Billy's dogs look like goddamn angels by comparison. And so he would travel with her and be like, look at this here, but look at how good my dogs are. Lose a good puppy, you be a good puppy. And so like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go have fun, you're fine. And so, like, she's traveling, he's getting about, and he's making a name for himself. And, like, it get to the point that, like, he's like the dude in the band. And so you've got bands named after him. So it's like the Billy Tipton Trio. The Billy Tipton Quartet. Billy Tipton and Friends, you know, and he's out there jazzing along, having a swell time, when a talent scout hears the Billy Tipton Trio and they get an audition with the Dorset Records Corporation in Los Angeles in 1956, and they record their first album called Sweet Georgia Brown. That is a name for a thing. I don't know the relevance of that specific name, but it feels a little loaded, that's all I'm saying. So they record a follow up, like a follow up album, which is called Billy Tipton Plays hi Fi on Piano, which is. Is an accurate description of what is happening. And so they get, like, some success and Billy makes, what, a good few grand out of it. And as a musician, it's always good to be paid, like, as a general rule, so they earn a wee bit of money, but it's not the main thing because what they do get more of is publicity. And so they get better jobs, they're able to, like, sell out more venues, they get paid better. And so they get offered, like a house band position for a hotel in Nevada. And that's like where the big dogs place. And you're talking like, people like, what, Liberace, for example, like, the big famous people, they would play in these hotels, like, not often, like, occasionally, but like, it was one of the better places to be. And so this is the break that they're looking for. This is like a golden opportunity. But Belly looks the gift horse in the mouth and says, nope. And his bandmates are pissed because they're like, this is. This is a golden ticket. This is money, this is fame, this is, you know, us being set for a decent amount of time. But Billy. Billy had been offered work as a booking manager in Spokane, in Washington, with playing clubs on the side, which meant he wouldn't be touring as much because it seemed like that was getting a bit tiring for him. And Also, when you're traveling and you're going from place to place, when you have that much movement and you are that well known, it put him in a more precarious position because it meant, you know, there were so many more opportunities for being discovered. Like, even a wife of like, one of the musicians who traveled with them said that, like, I'm from California and like, we notice these things in California. So basically they were saying that they would have known that, that Billy was assigned female at birth. Like in California, everyone would have figured it out like straight away. And so things like this, like, really played on Billy's mind and they were so worri worried about being discovered. And like, even as he was traveling and touring, like, sometimes he would meet people who knew him before. Before, like he was male presenting. And so this would cause like, more issues. And it all just, I think, just started playing on him. And so, yes, he takes this job as a booking manager. He's playing clubs on the side and the music he's playing, it's not like as challenging. It's like a step down to what he wants to be playing. And he's essentially just doing background music and these clubs and he's just kind of existing there. And so basically this puts his career on hold or say on hold. It freezes it effectively. And by what, 1965, the band is only really playing like sporadically, and he's not really being a musician much anymore and he's working as a booking manager. And so that's like the career side of things. And now that we've got that out of the way, it's time to talk about the Mrs. Tiptons.
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Samantha
Hello, listeners, Meet Lisa.
- [36:22]
Katy Charlwood
Hey there.
- [36:23]
Samantha
Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With Acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.
- [36:31]
Katy Charlwood
Yep. I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using Acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.
- [36:42]
Samantha
Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?
- [36:46]
Katy Charlwood
Shopping sustainably. And my sales, of course.
- [36:49]
Samantha
Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started.
- [37:05]
Katy Charlwood
Let me take you back in time to a boarding house in Oklahoma City where Billy Tipton is first starting to live as a man. They've left their mother's home and they're living in this boarding house where they meet Non Errol Harrow. That is her name, Non Errol. So non Errol Harrow, she is a marathon dancer, which is like, marathon dances is when couples would start, like, dancing. They would do, like, I don't know, the cheddarbug, the jive, the Charleston, whatever. They would dance until the last couple standing. And so these marathon dances, they would last for days, sometimes even weeks. And this is what she was. And so the two of them, they were roommates. So they were rooming together in the boarding house. And, you know, they acted like a couple. So they would refer to themselves as, like, Mr. And Mrs. Tipton. And when Billy moves to Joplin, Missouri, non earl comes with him. And to everyone, There they are, Mr. And Mrs. Tipton. Now, obviously, they're not legally married because Billy Lee Tipton doesn't have any legal documentation with that name on it. So, yeah, they just start representing themselves as husband and wife. Now in 1943, you know, their romance fizzles out, and non Earl moves back to Oklahoma City. And it's during this same year that Billy meets June. Now, we don't really know much about June other than her and Billy get a Pekingese together called Troubles. So they have a dog called Troubles and a monkey, which I could not find the name of, but there was a monkey. And sometimes when Billy would be doing a show, like, June would come and watch the gig. She'd sit in the club, the dog would be at home. She'd be in the club watching him play. And the monkey would be alone in the car. The monkey didn't like being alone in the car. And so often when they would come out after a gig, the monkey would have torn the crap out of some of the seats. Now, there was one time they came out and the monkey had completely, like. Yeah, I think the direct quote was it looked like there was a snowstorm in the car because the monkey had completely destroyed the seats, like, ruined all the upholstery. And so Gin and Billy, they're together for three years. They represent themselves as Mr. And Mrs. Tipton. And then 1946, June, they break up, right? And Billy keeps the Pekingese Troubles. And June. I mean, June came to the relationship with the monkey. And so June leaves the relationship with the monkey. Now, we don't know exactly what June knew about Billy's life, like, pre everything, but, like, after they broke up, like, June would often go around saying that Billy was a hermaphrodite. So I don't know if this was, like, just an explanation of what her understanding was or whether it was, like, if she believed that Billy was Intersex. Or if this was just a way to, like, attack Billy post breakup, whoms to say? Now, Billy never took June back to meet his family, but he did meet hers. And, like, up until the 1960s, like, he was still sending, like, gifts and cards to her mother, which is just really, really sweet. So when June exits stage left, who enters but Betty Cox, Mrs. Tipton number three. So June's gone, and Billy just starts inviting Betty over. Come visit me and my dog. We are sad. And so Betty's like, yeah, this is fine. And so he gets on really well with Betty's mum. Like, they have a really good relationship. And Betty, she says herself that she wasn't worldly enough to understand, like, everything that was going on at that point. And she was unaware that Billy was afab, right? Assigned female at birth. And after June, definitely, Billy never, never told any of his female partners this. Like, that was just something that he kept to himself and that he would just consistently portray himself as a man in every capacity. And when they break up, like, he stays close with her mum. Like, up until the 60s, he's sending her mom, like, gifts and cards just consistently. But when him and Betty are together, like, he gets her this dog, this puppy called Boots Lou and Boots Lou and troubles they didn't get on. I say they didn't get on. Troubles did not like this puppy. And it's like they just have this spat. And June, of course June shows up saying, I have visitation rights to the dog. And so she stays for four days, like, just in Billy's, like, abode, just to be like, this is my dog. I'm visiting the dog. Nothing to do with you and the new girlfriend or anything. I'm here for the dog. But, yeah, Billy and Betty, they're together for, like, seven years, and they only break up in 1954. And Betty, she traveled around with the band for a bit, and she found this just really exhausting. She just. It wasn't for her. All of the traveling and touring was really tiring. But if she wasn't traveling with them, then she was just spending a lot of time at home alone. And so there wasn't, like, much for her to do either way. She was either gonna be exhausted or be without her husband for months on end. And then in 54, she's like, it's too much. I'm done. And so they break up. And pretty sharpish, Billy is in another relationship. Like, the man cannot be single. Like, dude, you can exist without a relationship. Like, you don't need someone to make you happy. Anywho, Billy gets into a relationship with Mary Ann, and Mary Ann lives into, like, a town that Billy just passes through on the regular. And so him and Marianne, they get three Pomeranians at this point, Troubles, the dog had passed away. Betslow, I'm fairy or Bootsloo, I'm fairly certain was with Betty. And so you have Timmy, Tinker, and Tippy. The three dogs. First the Pekingese and then the Pomeranians. These guys really like the wee, tiny dogs. And so he moves to Spokane with Marianne, and it's like, is this the reason why he gave up his big break? And that was wife number four. So this is the one that he sort of settled down with. So they're living together, they've got three dogs, and then he ends up leaving her for Kitty. Thank you, baby, for being involved in this week's podcast. She wanted to be involved. So she's like, can I say something? I'm like, yeah, you can. You can say this. So Kitty is a burlesque dancer in one of the clubs that Billy is playing at. So basically what would happen is you've got, like, burlesque acts and strippers, and they would perform. And because the majority of the custom malls at these establishments were not exactly gentlemen, when they would finish their act, at the end of the night, when they were walking back to their cars, a lot of the time, like, musicians would accompany them for safety. So the male musicians would accompany the female. Like, strippers, burlesque acts, dancers, whatnot. They would be accompanied back to their cars. And so Billy would do this for Kitty, and the two of them started, like, flirting at work. Like, they're sending each other, like, letters, and so Billy's writing these sexy letters. These sexy letters are so sexy. You've got one. It's like, this is my favorite. He's got one that goes, My typewriter has a contract on it, and I'm doing this by hand. I've been doing it by hand for some time now. And like, in 61, he commissions an oil painting of Kitty completely starkles. So in the nude, lying on a beach with a volcano erupting in the background. Now, subtlety is clearly not a strong point here. That being said, if someone were to commission a painting of me nude, lying on a beach with a volcano erupting in the background, I wouldn't say. I wouldn't say. No, Actually, it depends on who it was. Like, it would depend on who it was. If it was somebody I didn't know. I think it might be weird just Like a random person commissioning a naked picture. It would be a bit odd. Anyway, so Billy and Kitty, they have, like, an actual wedding in 1962, on the 17th of March, 1962, St. Patrick's Day. And so it's like a full. It's not registered. It's not a registered wedding, but they have, like, you know, the walking down the aisle and all this stuff, the bouquet. And so, yeah, the justice of the piece's signature was forged. And Kitty's like, Bill sorted it out and Belle's just like, yeah, like, she didn't know it wasn't a legal marriage and she wasn't known that. Like, it was just faked by Billy, because, of course, no legal idiot for Billy there and so couldn't register their marriage. Now, like, here's the thing. Like, he could have done a whole thing about being, like, a common law man and wife. Like, I never got divorced from, like, my previous wife or whatever. He could have just, like, danced around it. But, yeah, there was a bunch of stuff he did to kind of COVID up well being afab, right? So a lot of the time, like, like, the previous wives reported that he would never get, like, completely nude in front of them. Like, he would use the car accident. It's, you know, a reason for all the bindings and for, you know, the lack of a penis. Best way I can describe it, like, there had been an issue. And, like, he would shave in the morning or make it appear like he was shaving in the morning. So his wives would be like, well, he got up and shaved his beard every day. And you might be thinking to yourselves, well, what about doing the do? Like, how did that go about? Well, it seems to be, as far as I can tell. So several of the wives who have come forward, like Marianne and Betty, like, they would talk about how he would always use a condom. He would always have a. He'd always have a rubber on him. Always have a rubber. And so it would appear that they had, like, Billy had a strap on or a dildo of some sort. And so they would also have a condom on it, just for posterity, I suppose, more than anything else. And so, yeah, and Marianne, like, at one point goes, well, clearly he had a prosthetic because, you know, of his injury. And that's what that was about. And I didn't want to, like, hurt him or offend him by that, like, which is very good of Marianne and very fair. Now, Kitty, Kitty, the burlesque dancer, she claims that they were never like, intimate at all. They never had Sex. Now, Kitty. Kitty is adamant that her and Belly were never, like, sexually intimate. Like, that wasn't something that ever happened in that. There was no way that any of the other wives, like, wouldn't have known. It was, like, a whole thing. And so Carrie, like, she. She'd actually injured her back, like, not long after they got married. And they were sleeping in separate beds, which, you know, fair enough. And also, you know, she may not have wanted to be like, that kind of intimate with them, but the two of them are writing each other, like, very filthy, very hot messages. And, like, they have names with all genitals. Like, so Billy says his penis is called Percy, which is fair. And then she's like, the vagina is called Hortense. And it's like, Percy, Mrs. Hortense. Percy. Mrs. Hortense. Percy wants to get all up in Hortense. And, like, with all of these, like, really naughty, dotty messages, it's. It's sort of strange to assume that they were not intimate. Although, that being said, like, there's always the argument that that was the type of, like, intimacy that worked for both of them, like, in written form and not physical, because Kitty had been assaulted before. And there's every possibility that that kind of thing, that being sexually active with another person wasn't something she wanted anymore. But who's to say, like, we weren't in that relationship, so we don't know. Now this could have been a way for Kitty to, like, cover her tracks or, you know what? Just, like, protect herself by going, oh, no, we definitely didn't do the do. Yeah. So anyway, Billy wants kids, and so they privately adopt three children. So baby number one was born on the 19th of October, 1963. And so Billy just comes home one day from work, and Kitty is there holding a baby. And Billy is just, like, so overwhelmed by this. Like, he doesn't even take off his raincoat. He's just like, they're on the ground and just, like, rocking this baby. Baby John Thomas. And this is a point where he's still, like, gigging quite often. And so by the time he's finished up, he's coming home at, like, two, half, two in the morning. And so he'll come in and he'll give the baby, like, it's nighttime feed. And so, yeah, it means that she gets a good sleep. It means that he's feeding the baby and the two of them are just going well together. So then in 1965, there's this child of an acquaintance of Billy's. Billy hears about it and that the child is in foster care and it wasn't being treated very well. And this kid is six weeks older than their own son, than John Thomas. And so they adopt him and they name him Scottley. Scottley. Scottley. And so he shows up and this kid is mock it. He's absolutely dirty. And so it takes them months for this kid to become comfortable in their home. And so, like, they make sure he is well fed, they make sure he is washed, they make sure he is happy. And then in 69, they adopt their last child. And so the mum of this kid, they had heard that, you know, they had adopted these other two. And so she's like, please, can you take my boy? And so they adopt William Allen, nicknaming him little Billy. So three years after this, Billy's mum passes away. Now, his Aunt Cora, this is the one that was like, don't go traveling as a man. So she never really accepted Billy as the person that they are. And so when Billy's mum passes away, her sister, she phones and she asks for Billy, but they ask for Billy by their dead name. Here's the thing, the person who answered the phone was Aileen, Billy's cousin. And Aileen doesn't really give anything away. He doesn't really confirm or deny, like, who it is that, you know, they're looking for. And they're like, oh, they're resting. Oh, this is like this. And then it's like, great, I guess we'll have to go get them. And here's the thing. Kitty's mother picks up the phone and goes, this is Billy's mother. And Aunt Cora is just like, go get him. Go get them up. Yada, yada, yada. And it's like, you can't tell me. You can't speak to this. And so this, like, Kitty's mum's like, I'm Belly's mother. So, yeah, suck it up, right? Deal with me. Now, Kitty claims to have no knowledge of this phone call, but I love that. Like, her mum was like, you know what? You know what? I know what's going on, but see you. You can go shove it. That is an ally right there. Friends. But, yes, Billy goes to his mother's funeral, right? And his family, they're. They're still not very comfortable with Billy's existence of a life as a man, right? And it's not. They're not great. However, his cousins Eileen and Madeline, they're. They're a bit less bad than the rest. They're, like, slightly more accepting. They have a perception about it, but they're, like, kind of chill. And so Billy's chatting to his cousins, and they're talking about, like, family and stuff. And he shares with them that he's worried that he has emphysema because he's got, like, shortness of breath and all this stuff. But he doesn't go to a doctor for obvious reasons. And so he's worried about being seen and having, like, his secret come out. Now, eventually, the relationship with Kitty falls apart. Now, Kitty says it's because Billy was gutless, because as the boys grew into teenagers, they became, like, rebellious, hormonal teenage boys. And Billy wasn't disciplining them. And so she was forced to be the disciplinarian. And that wasn't a role that she wanted. And so it got to the point where she was overwhelmed, and she would end up, like, screaming at the boys to the point that there was a kid who lived next door who was terrified of the sound of her voice. And so there was an incident where one of the boys, they went to hit her, and she, like, pushes one over and knocks another one down. And Billy doesn't get involved. What he does do is take two of the boys, like, two of the older boys out of the house for the night, and they sleep in a motel. And the next day, he buys a mobile home. And soon after that, him and the boys just, like, live together in this mobile home. And Kitty and Billy, they eventually divorce, like, in 81. And it's not an official divorce because, you know, it's not an official marriage. She said that she'd been given papers and she'd let him take care of it. And so, like, the theory is that he just, like, forged some paperwork. Now, at this point, Billy Tipton is struggling, like, for work. He's not really playing music anymore. He's just working at the booking agency. And it's slowly going a business. And by 84, he's in debt, a lot of debt. And a lot of the money that he's meant to be making comes from booking positions and then taking a commission when they get paid. But, like, he was really bad at chasing up the commissions because, like, he felt bad about it, so people just didn't pay him. And so his sons, like, they're teenagers at this point, and they're taking money off him. And he's entitled to Social Security at this point, but he doesn't want to risk claiming it. And so he's just living below the breadline. And the following year, two of the boys move out and they're 22. So Scott and John, they move out. And the youngest son, little Billy, like, they live together for a year or so. And so with the two of them, like Billy and little Billy, like, they're playing piano. Like, he's teaching them how to play the piano, and they're having jam sessions together. And at this point, Billy Tipton's got, like, quite bad arthritis, so he's only really doing these, like, wee jam sessions with his son. And he's still really talented, but it's. It's not as it was because he's in so much pain when he's playing. And so Christmas comes along and they get a dog, a Labrador, which is nice because it's a big dog, as opposed to these tiny things. I do not know this dog's name. If you know this dog's name, feel free to let me know. So the following year, little Billy, he starts doing drugs and this. This doesn't sit well, and so he ends up moving out. And Billy Tipton, he's unwell, he's short of breath all the time, and his health is just getting worse. Like, his friends, his co workers, they're all trying to get him to see a doctor and he refuses. So somewhere along this point, he gets rid of these chest bindings, like, all of them, any of, like, the dildos, the prosthetics, the strap ons, all them, they just disappear. None of that is in his possession. I think that he was close to the end of life and he was aware of it, and so he didn't want to risk, like, this being found. Like, Billy's aware that people are going to go through his stuff, they're going to find things. And so he ends up talking to his cousins and he tells them to, like, he needs to be cremated. He wants to just disappear. He wants to die a man. Like, he wants to end his life as a man because, you know, that's who he is and he doesn't want to risk anything coming out. And here's the thing, his cousins are like, just live with us. Like, you're not doing music anymore. You don't need to pretend to be a man. Like, which is what, like, their assumption is, like, come live with us. Live as a woman. You know, we can get you to a doctor, we can get you sorted. And instead of that, Billy chooses to live through the rest of his life as a man. Now, In January of 1989, little Billy, he's visiting his dad, and he is sick of his dad. Like, arguing about not seeing a doctor. And he's like, no, I'm getting you to a doctor. And so he calls the paramedics. But by the time the paramedics get there, Billy has passed away. So basically the paramedics show up and the first thing they do is they unbutton his shirt, because obviously they want to do CPR and stuff and all that. And so they unbutton the shirt and the first thing they say to little Billy is, did your father have a sex change? And Billy has seen his father's naked chest for the first time and has to go step outside. And, yeah, he's in shock because, like, his dad has died and then this happens and it's a lot for him to take it. And. And the autopsy report stated that this was the body of a normal biological female. The coroner signed it, then called a local journalist and said, I have a story for you. Get a hold of this death certificate. Meanwhile, Kitty had contacted a funeral director and basically swore him to secrecy and arranged for a cremation. Like, trying to, like, sweep this under the rug as quickly as possible. She also managed to find out that the coroner had contacted the paper. And so she calls the editor that was planning to run the story and demands that they respect the family's privacy. However, John Thomas had already agreed to be interviewed, and they saw this as family permission. And so the story was published. And so Kitty, she says she'd never known. They, you know, they were never physically intimate. And her older sons are, like, just basically dragging her in the press. And whether it's some kind of self preservation or because of her love for Billy when it was there, like, she's working hard to protect his reputation and his life. Meanwhile, the older sons sell the rights to a film company, a film which was never made. And here's the thing. From the perspective of these boys, it's probably not the worst idea that this film hasn't been made, because I don't think it should if it's not going to give Belly Tipton respect and consideration and empathy. So he was cremated and his ashes were divided between the older sons and the other half between little Billy and Kitty. And the majority of his assets, like his will, everything is, like. The majority of stuff is left to little Billy. He gets, like, you know, stuff from his career. Saxophones. John and Scott get a dollar each. And, like, they get a dollar each because if they get something, it means they haven't, like, been left out of the well. And it's sort of a way to stop Them contesting it. And so the biographer of, like, suits me, Diane Middlebrook, like, she has this whole opinion that Belly Tipton was just, like, an actor who was a lying liar who lied to everyone and basically had this whole facade. And so, like, when she was interviewing people, she was asking them if they felt deceived, if they felt lied to. And near enough, every person, like Loretta, who's Betty's sister, she talks about how Billy was a loving, caring man, considerate. And you find this throughout. The majority of. Of the people who came into contact with Billy, that he was a genuinely kind person. And a lot of the musicians who were contacted, like, a bunch of them were just, like, not our business. They're like, billy Tipton is Billy Tipton. That's the man playing the piano. Nothing to do with us. That's just Billy. Like, the whole idea is that even if they knew, they weren't saying shit, because to them, it didn't matter, because Billy, to them was Billy Tipton. He was their friend, he was their collaborator, he was their dude. And so Billy Tipton was loved, respected, revered, and lived his life as a man and wanted to live their life as a man. And even though the terminology and whatnot we, you know, didn't have then, but for him, he saw himself as a man. And to represent him as anything else is disingenuous and disrespectful. But so ends the story of Billy Lee Tipton. If you liked my telling of this story, which is different to my usual stuff because normally I do everything completely chronological, but I split it this to, like, professional and personal this time. But, yeah, that is the story of Billy Lee Tipton. Feel free to rate and review five stars if you don't want to, you know, give me five stars. You don't have to say anything. Shh. Nobody wants to hear it. I hope you liked this telling for Pride Month, which means we have at least two more to cover and one I've wanted to talk about for a long time. And I keep meaning to cover, but it just hasn't worked out for me one way or the other. But I'm really excited because it actually covers two of the important themes of this month, actually. But, yes, you can follow me on all the socials you can if you want to give me episode recommendations. I know I've been getting a few of those recently and I am working towards getting them. Thank you to everyone who's been joining the Patreon. The Boston show is up there. Listen to it with headphones on. That's the best way to do it. Otherwise you can't hear anything. Don't ask me why. Something to do with the way the recording transferred. So, yeah, there's a few more stuff coming out this month. I have news coming out next couple weeks and yeah, it's gonna be a good time, but it is recommendation time. So for reading. You know what? I've recommended it before. I'm gonna recommend it again. It's Pride month, so support your LGBTQIA authors. Let me tell you about Gareth Russell and his book Queen James. So it's about King James VI of Scotland and first of England. It is a damn fine book by a damn fine author. So read it. It's great for watching. Go watch all the performances from the Tony Awards. Go do that. They're great. I watched the Hamilton one several times over and over. It was a good time for me. Although with everything going on at the minute, my automatic thought is because costumes are incredibly important. Is I'm looking at David Diggs beret and I'm like, that was a choice. And I don't know whether it's to represent Lafayette as a general or whether it's to represent stuff happening in the country right now. Anywho, listening. Oh, for listening. You know what? I'm gonna recommend the Stay Hydrated podcast. I think it's just. It's just a real breath of fresh air for me. I really enjoy it. So enjoy. And with that, I shall bed you. Good evening. Adios. Au revoir. Au vuirise, my friends. Bye bye.
- [70:23]
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Katy Charlwood
You don't?
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Katy Charlwood
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Do you want to hear the next big new tech podcast hit before anyone else, check out the daily tech news show Experiment Week. We're swapping out our normal shows to try out some new ideas. We've done this before and launched big hits like behind the Data, the Tech John, and more. This year we have exclusive Android faithful reactions to the Pixel 9 event. It's all on the DTNS feed starting August 11th. Don't miss it.
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Katy Charlwood
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast. Com.