← Who Did What Now
Who Did What Now
152. Kate Warne - America's First Female Detective
01:13:57
Sovling Crimes and Saving President Lincoln
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Narrator
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Lisa
Creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.
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Katy Charlwood
Hey, do you want to hear the next big new tech podcast hit? Before anyone else, check out check out the daily tech news show Experiment Week. We're swapping out our normal shows to try out some new ideas. We've done this before and launched big hits like behind the Data, the Tech John and more. This year we have exclusive Android faithful reactions to the Pixel 9 event. It's all on the DTNS feed starting August 11th. Don't miss it.
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Lisa
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com hello delicious friends, and welcome to who did what Now, The History Podcast. That's not your history class. With me, your host, Katy Charlwood, history harlot and reader of books. First and foremost, I want to apologize for this week's episode being late. It's completely my own fault. I got bogged down dealing with so much other stuff that I just didn't have this ready in time. And I wasn't going to put out something that wasn't actually good or as well researched, you know, effectively. I've kind of started doing a series. I say kind of. I have started doing a series on TikTok about concentration camps and more specifically the Holocaust. Currently is the sort of area that I'm in and currently I think I'm on episode. I say episode. I'm on like video seven or eight at this point. And what I've done is I'm effectively just giving overviews. So because of certain media platforms, I can only make the video three minutes long. Right. And so I have to get each piece in there while providing, you know, as much information as possible as accurately and as considerately and sensitively as possible. And so I'm trying to cover all this stuff and. And it's the elephant problem. Yeah. So you can't eat an elephant in one sitting. You've got to eat it piece by piece. So I'm trying to provide this information and educating people in digestible chunks. Right. Because all of this information that I'm trying to tell, it's layers, right? It is layers of trauma and despair and human cruelty and it's just a terrible lasagna. Yeah, it's a lasagna of trauma and despair, but you can only eat one piece at a time. And so I'm trying to share all this and there's a lot of stuff that a lot of people don't know. And I'm effectively filling in the blanks which I, I was kind of aware of to begin with. But this really solidified it. And so I've been working on this. And this all started thanks to Laura High. You can blame her, right? Throwing her under the bus now because we were chatting about Alligator Alcatraz and people were arguing about it and I was like, well actually let me, you know, put this into context and history doesn't repeat, it rhymes. And so I started making one video and then I was like, oh, but this doesn't cover everything. And so then I made a second video and then I was like, okay, but maybe I need to explain the system more. So then I made a third video which then led people to ask more questions and I was like, oh, okay, well then this has to be a series because I'm not going to cover all this in like a three minute video. So between that, which involves me having to re research and re dig into something I studied for seven years and yet, and yet here I am. So not only do I have that, but I've got a full time job, I've got the book, I've got this, I've got two medium sized children. I mean my son is the same height as Sabrina Carpenter and he is very proud of that at the age of 10. And so yeah, there's, there's a lot, there is a lot happening. And so I'm just trying to keep on top of everything and I, I just, I just wasn't ready to have this done. And because I'm dealing with such intense dark topics and the horrors of humanity, I'm trying to make sure that I have like whimsy and levity in my life. So I'm trying to do like, lean into the joy a little bit and. And I want to tell you about my, like one good deed that I did today. I'm very happy about it. So I was walking home from work and like there's these trees with some swings in it some kids put up and like these kids, they were trying to get the swing down because it got caught in the branches and they're just like trying to. They're jumping and they're trying to do it and they're trying to work together as a team. So good for them. And I'm walking back and I'm holding my broly, aren't I? Strutting down the road like a Mary fucking Poppins, right? And I'm like, hello, hello, what's going on here then? And they're like, it's stuck in the tree. And I was like, you want to be hand? And so with my brawley, I managed to unhook the rope of the swing from the tree, get it down so they were able to play on their swing again. And I was like, yay. I helped the children and I tottered on my way. Me and my wee brawly. And off I went. But I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, katie, it's been almost five minutes, quit your jibber jabber and fact me. In fact, you are. Well, but first we've got to get our source on our sources are the Pinks by Chris Ince. Kate Warne First Female Detective by Katherine Ramsland. The Detective and the Somnibullist the Murderer and the Fortune Teller by Alan Pinkerton. Lincoln and The Baltimore Plot 1861 by Norma Bart Cuthbert. The Spy of the Rebellion by Alan Pinkerton. Celebrating women's History America's First Female PI by Erin Allen at the Library of Congress blogs. We also have documents from newspapers like the Philadelphia Press. And also our old favourites, history.com and thesmithsonian.com are you sitting comfortably? Good. Then let's begin. Kate Warne was the USA's first female detective. She was a pioneer in her era and she walked so others could run. And I have been so excited to talk about her and I've. I've wanted to talk about her for so long, but a lot of the information on her is spotty at best and we're basically relying on other people's accounts of her life, some newspaper articles, bits and pieces, and we're just working from that. But she is in like the list from my very first notebook when I wrote down like people I wanted to talk about. And she's in this dog eared page which is covered in like tea and coffee stains and notes and scribbles. Like she's on that initial list and being like just this amazing woman from history who has such little written about her. Like really most of it's fiction and it's one of those things where it would make a really, really good like TV show or movie because you can just flesh it out any way you want and you can fill those gaps with like historical like reasoning. Like you can just like join the dots and make the picture like it's, it's not that big of a deal as long as you are considerate to the character of who Kate Warne was. Now I heard a rumor and by that I mean I read an article that Dwayne the Rock Johnson, like his production company was going to make a movie about Kate Warne starring Emily Blunt. Now I love Emily Blunt. She's one of my favourite actresses. I love her to pieces. She was Mary Poppins also. She was that really bitch in the Devil Wears Prada. And I love that about her. Like I actually really like, was it the five Year engagement? She's good enough to be Kate Warren. Like, you know, good enough. But she's not appropriate to be Kate Warren because now I love Emily Blunt. She's a great actress, but I don't think she's right for Kate Warren. So she's going to be playing someone else if this is actually happening. Because like, no, I like Emily Blunt. She's a great actress, but she's not right for Kate Warne. Specifically. Like when we first meet Kate Warne, she's 23ish and the majority of her escapades happen when she's quite young. And so I think the actress really needs to represent that. So I think someone like mid to late 20s, they have to be pretty, there's a reason. But also like not stunning, right? Like she has to be like good looking but not like, but not like have Instagram face. You know, like she needs to look like she belongs in the time period and preferably American. I think let's give them a chance and also let them be good in accents. Like I think, I think that's closer to it. Like if Annie Murphy was a few years younger like perfect Kate Ward. You know what I mean? Just perfect. Not. I mean, she's Canadian and I love her. Okay, shut up. So anyway, Kate Warne was born sometime because she is a woman from the past. And so we don't have a lot of information about her. Now we have one article from the Philadelphia Press from the 21st of March, 1868, right? That's the background we have on Kate Warne's life. And it says that she was born in 1830 in Erinchemung county in New York, sort of upstate New York, to Israel and Elizabeth Holbert, and that they were poor. Like, her dad was a minister and she. And her mum was a homemaker and they were poor. And. And because her family struggled financially, she had to go out and work from a young age. Now it says that she got married and was widowed quite young. Right? And like every other source sort of revolves around this. Like, sometimes, you know, the dad's a minister, sometimes he's not, sometimes the mum's alive, sometimes she's not, Sometimes there's a brother, sometimes there isn't. Like, it's very flaky, right? And this is information that is gathered, like, in 1860, right? So this is 30 years after her alleged birth. Now, remember when I said that we don't actually know when she was born? Like, we don't know the month. We actually don't know the year either because she's the woman from the past. Why the fuck would we know this? So, yeah, we don't actually know. Like, this source states it is 1830, and then there are a few others that stated it's 1833. And most of them, most of them lean towards 1833, her actual year of birth. So let's just run with that. We may as well. What I mean, I mean, it's a. It's an A or B question at this point. May as well. So in 1856, Kate Warne is in Chicago claiming she's a widow. Was she ever married? If she had a husband, what did he do? We don't know. We've got none of that information. Now, I will say that given the context of the era in which she is living, right, as a woman, especially a younger woman, being a widow was a far more respectable position to be in than if you were single. Because she had married and because there's like, loads of social etiquette, there was like a mourning period and there's like, respect for the man who's no longer in your life, yada, yada, yada. So her being a widow not only granted her, you know, a little bit more respectability, but it granted her with that freedom. So she had more movement to, to go around without. Without being looked down upon by society. And so in the summer of 1856, Kate Warne, if that was her real name, steps into the Pinkerton's national detective agency on 80 Washington Street, Chicago. And she saunters up to the desk of Alan Pinkerton himself and inquires about a job. And he looks up and he sees this pretty woman. He says that, you know, she's not like super stunning, but she's very pretty and has an honest face and like, she looks smart and like all this stuff, like, near enough. Every description or depiction we have of Kate Warne, quote, or men telling her that she's pretty, they're like, oh, she's pretty, like she's hot stuff. It's like consistent, right? No matter where you go, that's what they say. And it's like, it's always pointed out as if it's like, look, look, she's not a minga, pal. I thought, all right, well, thanks very much. And so, and so he sees this, you know, pretty young woman, she's 23ish, and he's like, no, I'm not looking for a cleaner or, you know, a secretary. Like, I don't have any of those positions. See, he had put out an ad in one of the Chicago papers looking for detectives for his ever expanding detective agency. Basically, stuff like under the age of 35, must be honest, mustn't be, you know, one sandwich short of a picnic, etc, etc. Now, Alan Pinkleton himself, he wasn't born in the U.S. he, he was a Scottish immigrant. He was a cooper, which he made barrels, right? That was his job. He made barrels. And so he moved to the US for a better life in the 1800s and he went from making barrels to catching criminals. So he's in this wee Illinois town and he's like, you know, very locally doing his detective work and, you know, catching some crooks. And so he works his way up to be sheriff in Chicago, after which he opened his own detective agency. And by 1853 it was arresting criminals all over the USA. And because of that success, because it was doing so well and it was spread out, you know, across the US that he just needed more detectives. And so he puts out an ad to get some in and he's, he's genuinely surprised when Kate tells him that she wants to be a detective. And he's like, no, There aren't lady detectives. That's not a thing, right? That's not a thing. And she's like, well, because she plays to her strengths here. Like, she's one smart cookie. She's like, well, like, I'm. I'm of benefit to you. Like, I'm perfect. She literally says to him, women would be most useful in worming out secrets in many places, which would be impossible for a male detective. A woman would be able to befriend the wives and girlfriends of suspected criminals and gain their confidence. Men become braggarts when they're around women who encourage them to boast. Women have an eye for detail and are excellent observers. And Alan Pinkelson, he begrudgingly agrees, but he's not entirely convinced. In fact, he says it is not custom to hire women detectives. But he's so impressed with her, like, gumption that he's like, you know what? Sure, we'll give it a go. And so, yeah, he brings her in, and one of her first cases actually is really interesting. It's all about the Adams Express. So the Adams Express was basically a courier company. And so you had all of these railroads that had sprung up, like, across the country, connecting one area to the next. And the Adams Express Company would transport goods, money, mail. It was actually one of the ways that anti slavery literature made its way into the south because it was reliable and it ensured that what you were sending was going to get there. Like, that was part of, you know, the trust of the company. Like, it was the job it's supposed to do. You post it in the mail, the mail gets there. That's how it's supposed to work. Okay, so they did that, and that was supposed to go that direction. And yes, money was transported. It was safely couriered from one location to the next location. And some of these places that you would go to, depending on the types of banknotes you had, you may have to exchange the banknote of one state to a different banknote of another one. Like, it's. It was very complicated. But anyway, they were sending money down through. Down through the tracks, right? Now, in 1854, $10,000 had been stolen from a locked case that was in transit, right? So Pinkerton, he looks into it and he's like, this is an inside job. But the president of the company was like, no, no, no, no, no. Everyone who works with me, you know, they. None are of ill repute. Like, they're all respectable men. Like, none of the guys would do this. And he's like, yeah, I don't Think so. He's like, this is suspicious. I'm suspicious about this. And so anyway, it gets left. It gets left alone for another two years. Then in 1856, the year that Kate Warne joins the Pinkerton National Detective Agency, $40,000 was stolen on the same route. And so the vice president of the company comes forward, and he's, like, desperate. He's desperate, and he's like, I need you to do something. This is $40,000, right? So this is then money. If you stole $40,000 today, like, it would be a big deal, right? $10,000 today, still a big deal. Like. Like, you would be noticed right? Back then. This is the equivalent of like, maybe half a million to a million dollars. Like, it's. It's a lot of money. Like, not to give criminals any ideas, right? Like, I know, I know. I'm. I can just hear Sahar in the background going, Katie. No. But, yeah, it's. Yeah. Not to give criminals any ideas, but if you're gonna be stealing money, you steal a little bit of money. You don't steal a big bit of money. You steal a little bit of money at a time. Like, you siphon it out. Like, that's what all of those, like, clever accountants do. They just slowly steal money so that you don't notice you're stealing them. I think that was in an episode of Scandal as well, like, micro. Micro, not transgressions transactions, when it was like, oh, 30 cents and, like, 52 cents. And there's, like, small nominal amounts that you wouldn't notice, and they would just kind of go. And so that was part of it. But, yes, no, this person steals $50,000 in total, which is, like, just crazy money. It's crazy money. And so Alan Pinkerton himself, along with Agent George Bangs, they traveled down to Montgomery, Alabama, to the train depot where this, like, the money had originated. And again, the vice president is like, this could not be an inside job because the office manager, Nathan Maroney, was watching the money carefully and would have noticed if anything suspicious had occurred. And so Alan Finkleton's like, that man stole the money. That's your man. And the VP's like, no, it can't be that man. He is beyond reproach. And so they're like, okay, okay. And so they dig a little deeper into Moroni, and turns out, fun fact, he. He was a treasurer for a circus until the circus went bankrupt. One would assume not. Not the best treasurer in the world, because don't they work for peanuts? Ay, ay, yai. Yai. Listen, you're getting some classic comedy in this. I've had a tough week. So Moroni is suspected of embezzling the circus. But, like, he wasn't charged or anything like that. So, yeah, the. The $40,000, it goes missing in 1956. We had another 10,000 go missing in. Not 1956. That's wrong. That's a century later. 1856. And then we have the 10,000 that's missing in 1854. Now. Now, they don't really find much out until 1858. Right. So Nathan Maroney, he goes on holiday, travels along the east coast, and the Pinkerton agents, the men who are following him, they're like, hey, he's living a wee bit of the high life. Like, he's spending money as he's traveling, you know, along this way, which money he should not have because he's only, like, an office manager here. He's staying in, like, flashy hotels. He's betting on horse races. He's not winning on these bets for horse races. And he's, like, buying some fancy clothes. Right? Right. And so the Pinkertons are like, this dude is super guilty, right? And. And because they're like, he's spending too much money, they just have him arrested. They just get him arrested. They're like, arrest this man for spending money, which is not. Not really a lot of evidence or, I feel like, enough evidence to arrest someone. But there we go. I say, they got him arrested. They actually arrested him themselves because, like, the Pinkerton Agency, like, it was held in such high esteem. It was seen as a noble profession of the time, and there wasn't really a huge, like, police force necessarily. And so they're just like, we've arrested him. And everyone's like, cool, I guess. Meanwhile, like, back in Montgomery, Alabama, people are like, what the heck? I can't believe you arrested this guy. And so they raise enough money to bail him out of jail. And the detectives, like, they're well enough aware that they don't know they don't have enough to, like, like, like, put him in the slammer. And so they arrange a sting operation. They have him arrested again, and he gets placed in a jail cell along with a Pinkerton agent, John White. Now, John White's lawyer in this little scenario is George Bangs, another Pinkerton agent. So they're basically, like, being, like, undercover. They're, like, being, like, spies, and they're trying to, like, gain information that way. Meanwhile, Nathan's wife, Belle Moroney, she's staying in Philadelphia. So she's staying there. She's, like, near family. And round about this time, this guy, Mr. De Forest, also a Pinkerton agent, he is very handsome. He's very suave. And he just starts, like, paying a lot of attention to her. And it's very clear that he's paying a lot of attention to her. And so while this is happening, she meets a widow called Mrs. Ember. Mrs. Imbert. So who is. Who is Kate Warne in disguise? She's shown up in Philadelphia. She is a widow, and she'd spent a lot of time in Montgomery, Alabama, just sort of getting information and finding out, like, what she needs to know. And so she befriends in Philadelphia. She makes sure that she sees her, right? With big banknotes, like, very large banknotes, having to, like, change them in the bank and other places. Like, she's just sort of making herself known. And so they become acquainted. Meanwhile, because of all this, Nathan Maroney, he's like, someone's trying to get to my wife. And the fellas are in the jail with him, White. He's like, let me get. Let me get my lawyer. He knows a guy. He knows a guy, but you're gonna need some dough to, like, deal with that. And so Moroni's like, okay, great. I gotta call my wife. So he calls his wife, and he's like, I need to get my hands on the money. And she's like, maybe. I guess maybe. So Belle Moroni, she ends up confiding in her new lovely friend, Madam Imbell. I don't know why I called her missus earlier, but it's Madam Imbell. And she tells her that she is married to a forger, right, and lives daily in the misery of his wastrel life. And she ends up telling her dear new friend that all of the stolen money was buried in her sister's basement just outside of Philadelphia. And so, like, she tells her exactly, exactly where it is. And so a Pinkerton agent, he is dispatched to go and, like, find and collect the money. But. But when they send him, they have him followed. They have people tail him to make sure he didn't steal, like, the money for himself. He's like, we trust you, just not that much. So they end up finding the money. Like, there's a satchel full of money, and they get, like, most of it back. Like, there's a decent amount there that's still there. And so, yeah, Maroney, he goes to jail. Like, he's done. You know, he gets convicted of 10 years hard labor in Montgomery, Alabama. So, like, that's. That's not. That's not the best outcome for him, but tough luck, because you stole crazy amount of money, dude. Crazy amount of money. And whatever money was there was returned to, like, the Adams Express so that they could put it where it needed to go to pass it on to the person who was supposed to receive it. So another thing I want to mention about. About the Adams Express is that it was such a trusted courier. Like, again, the abolitionists were using it to send, like, anti slavery literature down, but an enslaved man posted himself. Like, he put himself in a crate and sent himself to the Northern states where he was free, and just, like, did that. Like, that was a fun one. Like, that's some good. That's some good history there. And so that all happens. And I think the Adams Express, it's like, not. It's like, not like a courier company anymore, but it's like. Like one of those Fortune 500s. It's like. It's like it still exists, but not in the same. In the same vein, like, how. I think it's like how American Express is now like a credit card that many countries struggle to take for some reason. But it is what it is. I don't know your financial laws. I barely know my financial laws. Okay, okay. That and geography. I'm doing my best, but my favorite part of this story is that Madame M. Bell and Belle for Maroney and Belle's daughter, Flora Maroney, they move to Chicago together. They move in together in a house owned by Alan Pinkerton. Tell me this movie doesn't write itself. These women just end up moving in together. Like, after the situation, after her husband's been put away. Like, the why? Why, why? Roommates, Best friends, perhaps. Perhaps, perhaps. Read between the lines. Dot those I's, cross those T's. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. And with that, I think it's about time for a wee break. Kate Warne was renowned for being a master of disguise, like Count Olaf, except better at actual disguises. And, like, one of her other famous escapades was when she goes undercover as a fortune teller. Now, remember, this is the 1800s, the mid-1800s, if you will. So imagine, if you will, racism. Like, it's very Roma inspired. I'm not saying the G word. I'm not doing it like, okay, unless that is someone's name, like their Barth Gavin name or their stage name or whatever they call themselves. No, not happening. Okay. Not happening. So it's very much she. She's there with like all of the accoutrements that one would imagine that somebody from the mid-1800s would adorn themselves in if they were pretending to be a fortune teller. And this is, I realized earlier, this is my Audrey Hepburn voice. I can't. I simply can't. Like, she's such a particular way of speaking, but that's because she was have French, have Dutch, and she was born Belgian. Like, that is such a weird thing. And side note, I'll probably cover Audrey Hepburn at some point, but, like, people talk about how slim she was and how that was like a goal, but everyone seems to forget that the reason that she was so slim throughout her life was because she suffered from extreme malnutrition during the Second World War. Okay, during the Nazi occupation, like, she was starved. But anyway, back to Kate Warne. So she ends up being sent to this building, which is hired out by Alan Pinkleton for her to perform, to present herself as a fortune teller. And Kate, she does her research, right? She knows everything that she needs to know before she goes in. But you may be asking why? Why is Kate Ward, you know, pretending to be a fortune tell?
- [33:37]
Narrator
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- [33:52]
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Lisa
Hey there.
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Lisa
When poor George, his head is bashed in and the culprit gets away with $130,000. Here's the thing. It's the 1800s and everyone is obsessed with the supernatural. Like, you see it all through, like, Victorian literature, all the way through to like Golden Age America. Like, people were believing in the supernatural specifically. Like, you would have seances and a rise in occultism and mediums were like a big thing. And so this is just another extension of that. And this is a period of time where they genuinely had belief in an obsession with death. And this belief with fortune tellers was this understanding of, like, the universe. Now, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What's classy if you're rich, but trashy if you're poor? Belief in the supernatural, right? Like, everyone at this point is, like, obsessed with this, right? You have mediums, and fortune tellers are plenty. And so Kate Warne, she goes and studies how to be a fortune teller. And then she also does her research because she fucking knows what she's doing. And also because people are more likely to confide a fortune teller. It's that sort of confidence trick that there's a type of bias where someone says something and you sort of agree to it and you add to it because you think they already know the answer, so you're just, like, confirming it to them as opposed to just, like, telling them. So there is this plot, shall we say, to poison a captain. So Alan Pinkerton, he rents out this, like, building so that she can set up as a fortune teller, right? And so as she's, like, posing as this really good fortune teller, she hosted the sister of Captain Sumner Annie Thayer. Now, of course, she did her fucking research. She knows what she's talking about. And so El. El Lusir, a fortune teller of great renown, the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and the only living descendant of Hermes the Egyptian who had traveled through all the known parts of the world reading the fortunes and horoscopes of dignitaries, heads of states, and anyone worthy of her time. This is like my Audrey Hepburn voice. It's terrible, but it's like Audrey Hepburn. She was half French, half Dutch, and she was born Belgian. And that is why she talks. I can't. I simply can't. And I realized that that voice was, like, taken from that. And I was like, oh, dear. It's actually very hard on the throat. But, like, sidebar. People are obsessed with Audrey Hepburn's slumness, and it's really difficult to have to remind people consistently that the reason Audrey Hepburn was so slim throughout her life was because she suffered malnutrition during the Second World War. Like, her country was invaded and she suffered from malnutrition. Like, she starved and her body never recovered. Like, that's not a goal one should have. And also, I think it shows so little to respect to what Audrey Hepburn went through. But anyway, El. El. Lucille. I have given her this voice because I have decided that it is A more respectful voice than the clearly racist voice she would have had when she showed up at the summers. And so she shows up in Chicago and she's like, there is marketing. There's like fanfare. It's like, here she is, right? Because Captain J.M. sumner, he gets violently ill and he's like, that's weird. That's suspicious. And he's convinced his sister Annie has something to do with it. So Annie ends up spending her time with El. El Lucille, who again, probably adorned in all of the, like the turban and the shawl and is doing one of those weird voices and wiggling her fingers in a weird way. And it's one of those confidence tricks, right, Where I think it's just like confirmation bias is part of it. So basically, instead of confirming, you're just like, you know, agreeing to what is being said. You're just, you know, agreeing with what's they're being told. You're confirming and you're adding to, you know, you're just giving that extra information. And so Anna there, she becomes a big fan of El. El Lucille and Mrs. Anna there, like, she's a widow and she's just like, really impressing Annie there because she did her research. Like, she's no fool. She has learned everything. And so she goes in there and she has answers to questions that Annie didn't know she wanted to know. And she has all this information. And so eventually she confides to her, to the great divinator that her married lover, Mr. Patmore, like, it's very Agatha Christie. Her married lover convinced her to end the life of his wife, right? And also kill her brother, like. And so when Mrs. Patmore died, allegedly of dysentery, like, Mr. Patmore, he's a hotelier, right? He has like, big money, he's from Ohio. Like, he's got cash. And he promises Annie this big new life and they're gonna get married. She's gonna teach his children and like, become his wife, right? Unfortunately, he's still married. So when she shows up and she's got like a massive like, emerald engagement ring, it's like, oh, this is. This is odd. And then Patmore, Mrs. Patmore, she dies of dysentery, like, suddenly, right? And so she shows up the. As the fortune teller L.L. lucille. And she's got like, all her hair is flowing down. It's like reaching her waist. She's in like long skirts. Skirts and embellished sleeves. Like, she's. She's dressed as one would imagine she would. And People were paying, like, 10 bucks a time to have their fortune told. Because here's. Here's one of those things. What's classy if you're rich and trashy if you're poor, an obsession with the supernatural. So during this. This period of time, from, like, the Victorian era, like, through the Gilded Age, like, depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on, there is this, like, obsession with death and this sort of even greater obsession with the supernatural. And I've covered this before in my talk. The Victorians ruined everything. But so this whole thing just ends up coming to a head where, like, she knows everything. She's amazing. And eventually Annie confides in her this whole plot about, you know, the murder of Mrs. Patmore and how he wanted her to kill her brother. And, yeah, yeah, ll Lucile cracked the case wide open. And Mr. Patmore, he is convicted of Mrs. Patmore's murder. And for the murder of his wife, he spends 10 years in prison. So Captain J.M. sumner survived another day. So Annie, she had actually returned to her brother's farm, and she sort of hid out there for a while. And then her husband, Henry Thayer, who she thought, like, had died at sea, had not. He'd gone missing, but he came back, and then the two of them ended up moving to China after that. I don't know. But, yeah, this whole situation was, like, so, like, intense for Kate Warne that she was, like, never gonna be a fortune teller again. Like, that just wasn't anything that she wanted to do. Now, before we get to the big case that you're all waiting for, for the thwarting of the Baltimore plot, the assassination attempt at Abraham Lincoln, the one that didn't take, I am going to tell you about one more case regarding Kate Warne. So in Mississippi, there was a terrible case. A case of murder, and also, unadditionally, a bank robbery. So George Gordon, he's a clerk at the City bank in Atkinson, Mississippi. And usually at night, he would lock up. And this was known, like, this was a known fact in this town. He would just lock up the bank at night. And while he was closing up one night, someone bashed his head in and stole $130,000, which is over $5 million in today's money. It's like 5 million, 89,000. Something, something, something. Because I checked the inflation, okay? I checked the numbers, and it is. It is a lot. So this guy has. He's there, his body is there. And there's not a lot of clues other than, you know, corpse and missing money. Now, this scene is horrific. It is a very bloody scene because the man no longer has a cranium. It's mainly pudding based. Okay? Like, that is what you're looking at in this scenario. And so in his corpsey hand, I feel like there was a better way to phrase that, but n has curled up rigor mortis hand. There is a $100 bank of Georgia banknote. Like, it's all bloodied and whatnot, but he's got a firm grip on it. They also find something sort of smouldering in the fireplace. Now there's like some charred buttons on it, but after that, like, we're not. Not really sure about what it is. Now there is like another twisted sort of piece of paper which turns out to be a bill signed by Alexander Drysdale. Now, every time I see Drysdale, I can't help but think of Dinsdale from Monty Python. So, like, there's just this. There's just this clerk, a giant hedgehog coming in to deposit his catch at the end of the day. So, like, this county clerk, Alexander Drysdale, he's like, known for doing out of hours deposits. Like after hours. He deposits the money in. It's very normal for him. Very typical. But of course, his name is written on a paper at the crime scene. And as such, it's like, it's like it's not. It's not a mystery that Scooby Doo need to come in and solve. Like, it's. It's. It's fine, right? I feel like we can follow this lead. And so that's what the Pinkletons do. They send in one of their agents, Timothy Webster. And he is playing this. I say playing. He's posing as this influential wealthy man from Baltimore. I don't know why I gave him this voice. And so he shows up at the Atkinson City Hotel. And he goes under the name John Andrews, like, because it's a very known name, you know, Know. And so he shows up and he becomes friends, you know, with Alexander Drysdale. Drysdale. And after a while, this man, this wealthy businessman, John Andrews, his daughter joins them. Mrs. Potter. And who is Mrs. Potter? It's kid one in disguise. Yeah, here she is. And so she shows up and she becomes, like, acquainted with Mr. And Mrs. Drysdale. And so Mrs. Drysdale, she's like, oh, who is this lovely young lady? And she's like, I am the daughter of this man. We are age appropriately separated because, like, she's in her 20s at this point, you know, she's still Quite young. And so she ends up gaining the confidence of Mrs. Drysdale, who says that she's really worried because Mr. Drysdale, like, he's not sleeping. Like, he's like on edge. He's kind of like morbid and melancholy, like very melancholy. Like Antonio in the Merchant of Venice, if you know, you know. And. And so she's like, hey, he's not doing great. Oh, that's also. That's kind of what happens, like if you do something really bad or if you believe you've done something really bad and there's going to be consequences. Lack of sleep is one of the. One of the consequences of that. And so she's like, oh, that's. That's not great. So Mrs. Drysdale, like, she's confiding in her. And so Kate Warren, she's hanging out as Mrs. Potter, she's hanging about and she befriends another lady nearby, Mrs. Franklin Rogers. And they decide to go racing their horse across a country path. And then, oh, in a crazy, random happenstance, Mrs. Potter falls from her horse, right, and is late, injured. And you'll never guess what happens. Who lived nearby but the Drysdales. And so she is brought to the Drysdales abode and they're like, this young lady is injured, she needs to rest. And they're like, okay, let's bring her in. We know who she is. She is that kind, young daughter of Mr. Andrews. Forgot his name for a second, right? So not long after Kate's in the house, Mr. Drysdale starts seeing an apparition, right? He starts seeing ghosties, right? He's seeing ghosties in his house. They look like the corpse of the dude who was there. And he's just like, freaking out, right? Basically they're doing one of those like, Amadeus machines to make him like, like a bit loopy. And so there's this ghosties. He's seeing ghosties, right? And then what they also did is like, she'd come out at night and just splatter like blood. Or like pretend blood, like mysteriously there's blood. And so Mr. Drysdale, like, it starts freaking him the fuck out. And. And so he starts like, sleepwalking. And so as he's sleepwalking and he's like, just leaving the building, like Pinkertons are just following him like all around. And so like, they're checking out the creek on his property. And in this creek they find a box. In this box are gold coins and, and other sort of bits and pieces that had been stolen from the bank. So like it's not. It's not enough to convict him of both, like the murder and the theft, but it's like, yeah, they couldn't really use it as evidence because technically that's entrapment. So they were like, oh no, I guess what are we going to do? And so effectively they just kept like pressing him, like, until he managed to get like, Pinkerton gets a warrant for Drysdale's arrest. And so Pinkerton and the sheriff, they just start like interrogating him, like. So they arrest him, right? They're arresting him for the theft, right? But they tell him that they are arresting him for the murder of George Gordon. And so Drysdale, he screams and faints and after he gets up, they take him to the bank where the murder had been committed. And who is waiting for him at the bank? A ghost. A ghost. There they've made a little ghost state, right? And he ends up confessing to the crime. His debtors were like pressuring him for money. He was like broke and needed it. And so he had withdrawn all of his money from the bank and then requested a loan. And so like George, he's, you know, you know, kept out all the money. And as he's kept all the money link, Mr. Drysdale, he just like fucking whacks him in the head. So he does that, steals the money, steals the money from the vault and it's just like this big confession in. So like after he, you know, tells the truth, he's like. Asks the sheriff for like a moment alone, he says he wants to write a note to his wife because, you know, if he's going to go to prison, he just wants to like, write to her. And so like, as they're walking out and closing the door and leaving him behind to write his note, Drysdale says, tell my wife I feel better for having confessed. And then as the door closes, they hear a bang. So basically they left a gun in there with him and he just ended his life. I'm gonna go out in a lamer and be like, that's not the most ethical of things I've ever heard. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna.
- [53:32]
Narrator
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Advertiser
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Lisa
Hey there.
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Lisa
Yep, I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using Acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.
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Advertiser
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Lisa
Shopping sustainably and my sales, of course.
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- [54:44]
Lisa
No, I'm just saying this would work very well as like an episodic TV show, like a miniseries even, you know, could just like throw in another couple of like old timey cases and just shove Kate Warren in there like just for fun. Cuz like based on a true story. It doesn't need to be exactly a true story, but like for the most part, or a three part miniseries or a four part mini like this could have it. The Abraham Lincoln one could be two episodes. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, President elect Abraham Lincoln was supposed to be traveling through Baltimore to go to his inauguration. There was like an 11 whistle stop from like Springfield, Illinois all the way up to Baltimore. And there are whispers, there are whispers of a Baltimore plot of secessionists who want to assassinate Abraham Lincoln. Now at the time there was like loads of rumors that, you know, people were going to try and assassinate Lincoln, the president elect. It was all over the place, right? But this was one that Pinkerton believed to be like, on the up and up. So when it comes to Abraham Lincoln's election, right, the 16th president, the first Republican president. So basically his victory was only because of support in the west and in the north, like in the 15 southern slave states, no ballots at all were cast for him. And in 10 of them, and he won only two out of 996 counties in the Southern states, right? So his victory in the electoral college basically won him the votes. He had 180 votes. And the other three candidates had like, between them, like split between them, 123 votes. And so he's heading from Springfield to Washington, not Baltimore. He has to go through Baltimore, Right? And so in order to find out what's going on with this murder plot, like, they're genuinely worried. And like his bodyguard, like, wants to give, wants to give Lincoln like a gun, like a pistol and a Boy knife. And Pinkerton's like, wait, no, don't give the president a gun and a boy knife. Like, what are you doing? And he said, he's like, let's find out what's going on. And so Kate Warne is sent undercover to the South. And so she shows up in the PT Barnum Hotel as a widow. A widow. A wealthy widow who, like, somehow manages to float in and out of Southern society like parties, which is no mean feat because, like, there are rules and etiquette to 18th century life at the best of times. And this is a hard crowd to break. And so she shows up and she's either known as Mrs. Barley. She puts on, like, this Southern accent and she claims that she's from, like, Alabama because she spent so much time there before that she knows so much. Like, she really knows so much about Alabama. And so she's like, I'm just a widow from Alabama. I don't know if that's a good accent. She also went under the name of Mrs. Cherry, which just makes me think of my name's Cherry Cherry, Mary Cherry's mama. And so she would show up at all these parties and balls in the best of fashions wearing a black and white cocade pinned to her gown. Now, what is a cockade, you may be asking. Well, a cocaine is like, you know, one of those ribbons they pin onto you when you win something or it's got your birthday on it or my personal favorite, the suffragettes had them. Like, it was basically this little symbol of, of, like, support for, like, secessionists. Like, it was a way of showing that she was on, like, the slave state side because, like, she was openly wearing it and she was. She would hang around and listen to stories, men would brag to her, and she would just pay a lot of attention. And so this is where she finds out the plan to assassinate Lincoln, right? So here's, here's the whole, whole thing is that because the original story, right, was that the secessionists were gonna attack the railroad in Maryland because Alan Pinkerton, in 1861, he's initially hired by Samuel H. Felton, who's the president of Philadelphia, Wilmington and Baltimore Railroad, because he's like, the secessionists, like, they keep saying they're going to blow up the railroad. And so after all of this, like, investigation, they realize it's not just the railroad, it's an assassination plot. And so Mrs. M. Barley is like, hanging out with these secessionists, showing up with these parties, and she is finding out information. So basically, what these secessionists do is they, like, have a draw. And if you pick like the right card, like, you get the opportunity to assassinate Lincoln. And so that's like the idea of it. And like, I think seven or eight people draw the card. And I think that's partly for culpability, but partly because to give more, like, chances. So Lincoln, he hears about this and he's like, I'm not stopping. I'm not changing my plans. Because here's the thing, all roads, like, or train tracks, I should say all of them lead to like, or through Baltimore. Like, they lead through. Like, he had no option. Like, he was going to Baltimore one way or the other, which is like, wild. And so the thing is, there's like 30 miles that she needs to go. Like, they need to go. In order to, like, get from one train to the other. He had to go from Calvert street to Camden Yard station. And so that's like a mile by horse drawn carriage. Like, that's, that's the distance. And that's not entirely safe because that's where everyone thinks that they're gonna get them. And because, like, the President elect's journey was like, printed and people were expecting him to go through at a certain time, the conspirators believed that this would be the perfect opportunity in which to assassinate Lincoln. And everyone was saying, like, you know, do this to protect yourself or do that. They're like, you're gonna die, effectively. Everyone was like, sorry, good luck being assassinated on the way to your inauguration, man. They're like, guess that's just how it is. And so the plan is like, one of these conspirators, an Italian barber, like, he is from Italy, Cipriano Ferrandini, he's like, this is a great plan. We'll create a diversion. Like, it's based on, like, one of the revolutions in Italy. Just like, just a whole mess actually. But anyway, so he's like, we'll cause a diversion, we'll start fires, and then we'll make like, all this happen. And then, then we will, like, distract people from there. Everyone will come to us, the police will come to us, which will give the, the real, like, killers. It'll give them the opportunity to go and shoot Lincoln. Right? Like, that's the plan. Right. And so, and so they have to, like, come up with an idea of how to make this work. Like, Lincoln doesn't even believe the Baltimore plot until William Seward. Like, the. Like, I think he's going to be Secretary of State. Like, he's going to be Lincoln's secretary of state until he goes up and tells him. He's like, there's a plot. Like you're gonna die. And that's when Abraham Lincoln finally listens. And so they end up like, getting. Getting in this plan. Enter Kate and the Pinkertons. And so they decide the best way to get him through Baltimore is with Kate by his side. So she is undercover and as MB Mrs. Bal and she buys four tickets in Philadelphia for a sleeping birth, right? So basically there's a sleeping carriage in this train. And it's. She basically bribes the guy, the conductor, with like 50 cents, right? Cuz, like, the way these carriages work is like you pay for your sleeper train, but like it's a first come first serve. Like you don't reserve the actual carriage. And so she's like, I need this carriage for like me and my invalid brother. Like, he's so frail, her very tall, hunched over invalid brother, right? So she ends up like securing it and she keeps this leg room for four. And so herself, Lincoln, like Wardhell Layman and Alan Pinkerton, they get this, this like sleeper carriage. And like, it is wild because everyone, no one would expect really for like this woman to be his bodyguard. Like, it's basically like she's the first Secret Service, because this is pre Secret Service. And so she is, you know, hunched with his hunched old man, like bringing him onto the train. And so he is hunched over, he's wearing an old coat, a soft hat and a shawl. Now he. He's known specifically for wearing those like stove pipe hats, you know what I mean? And so he's there looking very much not like Helix. And so he's like on this sleeper carriage, meanwhile, as he rests through the night and he sleeps, not really fitting on it because he's so bloody tall, right? Kate Warne stays up all night. She has a revolver on her, doesn't want to use it. I mean, she will if she has it because of course she will. It's Kate Warne. But she's there and she stays up all night ensuring that nothing happens to the president elect. And this like, mile between the two stations, whatever Kate Warren does, however, she makes this work, right? The sleeper carriage is unwinched from the train, hooked onto a horse and cart, and driven through the streets and then attached to the other train. So like, one of the reasons this works is that everyone was expecting because of his itinerary, that Lincoln would travel through on a later date, whereas he was traveling like a day or day or two before. And so people were expecting him to travel on a different day. Plus, he wasn't traveling in, like. Like, a big, fancy train, like, a presidential carriage. He was, like, on a regular carriage with, like, Joe blogs, you know? And so when he is delivered to Washington, like, Pinkerton like, sends a telegraph, and I shit you not, it says, plums has nuts. Because that was his codename. It was Plums. Plums has nuts. Now, I don't know why, but I have imagined a squirrel in his stovetop hat. Plums has nuts. And that is him. Like, not the eagle has landed. Not. None of that, but there he is. Like, he's there. And so. And so there. That. That happened. That happened. She was there. And I feel like maybe she should have been guarding him when he went to the theater. That's all I'm saying. I feel like less issues would have happened. And also because Kate Warne had stayed up overnight. Like, Alan Pinkerton said that this is the reason that the motto of the Pinkertons was we never sleep, right, because of this event. And what's interesting is, like, there's another, like, detective agency, like, in. In town, and they just start, like, bullshitting and saying that it wasn't the Pinkertons who were at, you know, protecting the president. It was. It was them. And so in retaliation to, like, this pamphlet that goes out, Alan Pinkerton writes his own stuff, right? And he's like, oh, well, you know who else was there? Kate Warne. Right? The Kate Warne. Do you want to argue with that? Maybe you've heard of her? And they were like, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Never mind. We are. We are wrong. And like, Abraham Lincoln, like, he says that, you know, that all. He says all these really nice things about Kate and how she's, like, lovely and, you know, surprising that she was protecting him, but good for her. And Kate Warren's like. He's very homely and too tall for the sleeping beds, right? Which is, like, true. But also, Kate, you. You don't have to kick a man when he's down. His name's Plums. Okay, we're good. And so, over the years, Kate ends up really, like, gaining the trust of Alan Pinkerton. And, like, a lot of the time when they were going undercover, they'd go undercover as husband and wife because it's very believable, you know, and it becomes like. Like, there's a theory that they had, like, a romantic relationship going on. I. I feel like it was more of a. This chick actually knows what she's doing scenario because, like, I like to think her and Belle have their own special, special connection, okay? She ends up gaining so much respect that she ends up bringing on and becoming in charge of all of these other, like, lady detectives, including. They also hire, like they say, women of colour. She was black, okay? This was a black woman they hired because she could find information and go unnoticed in areas where men and white women couldn't. Like, that was. You know, it's fairly progressive. Like, Alan Pinkerton, he was fairly progressive for the era. It's only when he's, like, steps down and his sons take over and they kind of, like, really soil the Pinkerton name because, like, crossing the picket line when it comes to, like, all this stuff, like. Yeah, but anyway, back to this. And so then these, like, Lady Pinkerton or the Pinks, as they were known, like, they just start, like, becoming major players in the detective scene. And, like, remember, women could not be police officers at this point. So, like, this was. This was an option for them. And so Kate, she ends up being promoted to the supervisor for the female detective bureau. So then when the Civil War hits, like, Pinkerton writes to President Lincoln, like, offering the services of the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. While he was doing that, Major General George B. McClellan asks Pinkerton to set up a military intelligence service, like, for his command. And so before the end of, like, July 1861, Allan Pinkerton takes Timothy Webster, George Banks and Kate Warne, like, up to set up headquarters in Cincinnati, right? Basically to be part of McClellan's Ohio division. Right. And so they are used as covert. Like they're spies, right? They're spies for the union, right. And so, like, Kate Warne and Timothy Webster, like, they would often pose as husband and wife as well. And Timothy Webster, he actually gets killed. Like, he gets executed down in the South. Like, he gets caught. And this is the thing as well. So during this, like, Kate, she would. She would often, like, pose then as Alan's wife. So depending on where they were, she was just somebody's wife, right? And so they would go and, like, find information. And, like, during the Civil War, we don't actually know a lot of what Kate got up to. This is one of those things that I wish I had the paperwork for. It's Kate kind of like, in a little bit of a way, like, the amount of people that ask me about Christopher Lee's military fail, which is sealed, by the way it's sealed. We don't know what he did. He's probably more James Bond than James Bond. Is right. Christopher Lee was an actual spy. Like, he was a proper killing machine. Right. We know he stabbed at least one man. Okay. I think he stabbed more than one man, though. I think he stabbed enough men to know exactly what a stabbed man sounds like. I love Christopher Lee, and I. If I had one fail to unseal, it would be his. I would do it. But I would love to know what happened to Kate Warne during the Civil War. Like, a lot of espionage, a lot of subterfuge, a lot of sneaky deakies, and I'd love to know, like, what she did and just fell in that gap. Now, Harry and Pinkerton, they remained friends. Like, they remained close over time. So much so that when she passed away, Alan Pinkerton had her buried in the Pinkerton family plot at Graceland Cemetery in Chicago, Illinois, even though her surname is, like, misspelled. Like, there's no E on the end of Warren on it. And we don't know much, actually about the end of her life, but on January 28, 1868, Kate Warne passed away from pneumonia. They call it congestion of the lungs, but it was pneumonia. It was just a very normal way to die back then. And so she passed away at the age of 35 or 38, depending on the timeline. It's young, you know, that's what I'm saying. Everything she did, she did as a relatively young woman. And I think we need to take that into consideration because her life was cut short. Like, that's what happened. That was her life. And it ended from what is now a curable disease for a lot of people. Not for everybody, but for a lot of people, that is survivable, and she didn't. And Kate Warren is a woman who, you know, ended slavery by association. Right. She was part of the reason that the Emancipation Proclamation went through. Even though I know Lincoln has his issues, and I know that he only voted or promoted, you know, emancipation because that was what the majority of the public wanted, and that's why he went with it. If they wanted to keep slavery, he would have voted for that, too. Like, he would have done that, right? But he did what he did. He was assassinated. Civil War started, so on and so forth. So, like, by proxy. By proxy, Kate Warren was involved. Now, thus ends our story of Kate Warne, a woman who I feel we should know so much more about, but like with many women in history, we just don't. And so ends our story of Kate Warne, a woman whose beginning was shrouded in mystery and spent most of her life solving them. Oh, that's good, though. That's really good. If you liked my telling of this story, feel free to rate and review. 5 stars. If you don't think it's worth 5 stars, you don't have to say anything. You don't have to rate at all. You can just ignore it. It's fine. You can follow me on all of the socials. I am either who did what now? Pod. Who did what now? PD Or Katie Charlewood. You can just find my name and. Yeah, yeah, I think that's. That's all for today. I don't think I've got any other news for you. Until next time. Time. And I think it's recommendation time for watching I'm gonna go with Lady Detective. I'm gonna go with the World According to Lydia Poet. It is not in English. You will have to watch with subtitles if you do not speak. I believe it is Spanish. And there's that Spanish guy who speaks perfect French. I believe he was Leon in Leon. So, like, that's. That's a really good show for reading. I think you should read the number one Ladies Detective Agency, because I think you should. And for listening, there's a podcast called shedunit. S H E D U N N I T And I find the host, her voice is so soothing that when I first started listening to it, like when my anxiety was really bad, I. I actually would fall asleep because I found her so soothing and it made me really mad because I really wanted to know what she was talking about. So basically she talks about, like, whodunits, like murder mysteries and those written by women specifically. And so I love them. She's amazing. Listen to that. If you like soft, soothing voices telling you about old timey grime novels, I love it so much. Okay, well, with that, I am going to. Oh, before I go. Actually, no, turns out I'm eligible for, like, the British Podcast Awards listener vote. Like, I'm. I'm in the thing. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And part of me, like, thinks it would be so funny. Could you imagine if my, like, arse got even close to winning? It would be such. It would be such a funny thing. And I'm so tempted because you're like, you don't need to be in Britain to, like, vote. You just have to be voting and to validate it. How funny would like my little arrogant arse be? Anyway, it'd be great if you could vote for me. I'll put the link in the description and thank you. For listening. I will see you next time. Adios. Au revoir. Au revoir my friends. Bye bye. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.
- [78:28]
Katy Charlwood
Hey, do you want to hear the next big new tech podcast hit before anyone else? Check out the daily tech news show Experiment Week. We're swapping out our normal shows to try out some new ideas. We've done this before and launched big hits like behind the Data, the Tech John and more. This year we have exclusive Android faithful reactions to the Pixel 9 event. It's all on the DTNS feed starting August 11th. Don't miss it.
- [79:00]
Lisa
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com.