196. The Lavender Scare

Summary

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Who Did What Now – Episode 196: The Lavender Scare

Host: Katie Charlewood
Date: June 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Katie Charlewood, your “history harlot and reader of books,” delves into the harrowing history of the Lavender Scare—a nationwide moral panic and government-led persecution of LGBTQ individuals in the United States during the Cold War. With her trademark irreverent humor, cultural observations, and sharp historical insight, Katie draws connections between the Red Scare and the Lavender Scare, explores the roots and mechanics of state-sponsored paranoia, and spotlights the personal and collective toll this era inflicted upon queer Americans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening Thoughts & Personal Anecdotes

[02:41 – 06:22]

• Katie launches the episode in her familiar, conversational tone, joking about Scottish pride, international travel, and the quirks of American culture—Costco stickers on her suitcase and all.
• Key quote:
  “Determination and just a little bit of spite. That’s how everything gets done.”
  (Katie, 05:39)

2. Setting the Context: Pride Month and Collective Memory

[06:22 – 09:47]

• Observes Pride Month’s varied celebration dates in her town, reflecting on Ireland’s emotional traditions (“we have convenient little grief cases”).
• Pushes back on backlash against Pride—“Why aren’t we celebrating veterans?”—by pointing out the U.S. does have a Veterans Month.
• Lists her extensive sources for the episode and issues a content warning for discussions of sexual assault and suicide.

3. The Red Scare: Background and Paranoia

[09:47 – 18:43]

• Katie paints the backdrop of the first and second Red Scares, explaining that fear of communism, socialism, and other “leftist” ideas led to heavy-handed government crackdowns.
• Explains how the definition of “un-American” was broadened to target not only political dissenters but marginalized communities—paralleling reactions to labor strikes with communist conspiracy theories.
• Sardonic commentary on misunderstanding socialism, Marxism, and sociology, poking fun at casual political ignorance.
  • Key quote:
    “Most of the time when people throw around ‘communist, Marxist, etcetera’… ask them if they’ve actually read the Communist Manifesto, because nine times out of 10, if they say they have, they absolutely have not.”
    (Katie, 15:18)

4. The Second Red Scare and the Birth of McCarthyism

[22:09 – 26:54]

• Outlines President Truman’s executive order to screen federal employees for “subversive” activity—including communism, fascism, and “immorality.”
• Describes post-WWII America as a society in flux: civil rights movement, growing visibility of women and queer people, and a male-dominated government resistant to change.
• Details (with historical stats) the lack of representation in Congress and the Senate for women and minorities in the 1940s-50s.

5. Joseph McCarthy: The Architect of Paranoia

[31:40 – 41:40]

• Portrays McCarthy as an unremarkable, unpopular senator desperate for political relevance.
• Recounts McCarthy’s infamous 1950 speech alleging communist (and, by extension, homosexual) infiltration of the government—using an old list of fired employees to stir a media frenzy.
• Memorable moment:
  “The worst thing you could be [in the 1950s] was communist or gay. Or I suppose, communist and gay.”
  (Katie, 33:30)
• Explains how McCarthy and the media fanned suspicion, linking homosexuality to susceptibility to blackmail by communists (“The pervert is easier prey to the blackmailer”—citing contemporary rhetoric).
• Highlights just how little actual evidence existed, and mocks the logic: “If we just decriminalized homosexuality… then how are they going to blackmail them?”

6. Machinery of the Lavender Scare

[41:40 – 53:51]

• McCarthy’s allegations gave rise to a witch hunt across federal and private sectors.
• Roy Cohn, McCarthy’s chief counsel—himself likely a closeted gay man—zealously led the charge against homosexuals in government, even targeting libraries.
• Details the ease with which accusations could destroy careers and lives, noting that hundreds were fired, many driven to suicide.
  • Key quote:
    “What is wild is that Cohn here is the witchfinder General… But the irony is it is likely that Roy was a closeted homosexual.”
    (Katie, 43:20)
• Laments the tragic and hypocritical effects: “Some of the parameters that were accepted as evidence… also applied to McCarthy himself. At this point in time, he was an unmarried man in his 40s still living with his mother.”
  (Katie, 49:51)

7. Federal Policy: Eisenhower’s Executive Order 10450

[49:51 – 57:00]

• Discusses Eisenhower’s order, which explicitly named “sexual perversion” as grounds for firing federal employees.
• Illuminates the chilling consequences: the federal government was the largest U.S. employer, making the policy’s reach enormous.
• Describes the absurd “gaydar” training for managers—dog-like efforts to sniff out homosexuality based on stereotypes.
• Notes the knock-on effects: raids on gay spaces increased, and anyone associated with the LGBTQ community could be targeted.

8. Escalation: The Hoey Commission & Personal Stories

[57:00 – 65:47]

• The “Hoey Commission” (Sen. Clyde Hoey) takes queer hunting to a new level—declaring that even a single homosexual could “pollute a government office.”
• Shares the story of Carmel Offie, an effective government worker whose career was derailed despite everyone knowing he was gay and therefore un-blackmailable.
• Highlights Dr. Frank Kameny, an astronomer who, after being fired, refused to accept discrimination—suing the government and spearheading early gay rights activism.
  • Founding Mattachine Society of Washington D.C.
  • Key campaigns: marching at the Pentagon, launching fight against D.C. sodomy laws, pushing to declassify homosexuality as a mental illness.
  • Key quote:
    “Kameny said, fuck this for a game of soldiers and sued the federal government…” (Katie, 61:40)

9. Resistance & Legal Victories: Dale Jennings

[65:47 – 71:20]

• Details the LA-based Mattachine Society and the pivotal arrest and trial of Dale Jennings.
  • Jennings chooses to admit his homosexuality in court, shifting the narrative on police entrapment and ending in a “kind-of victory.”
• Reminds listeners that around 10,000 people lost careers and security during the Lavender Scare; many never received apologies.
• Notes the 2015 apology from Secretary of State John Kerry to the LGBTQ community.

10. Reflections & Modern Connections

[71:20 – 72:53]

• Katie draws a direct line between the Lavender Scare and continued attacks on queer people today—urging listeners to “get voting, get involved, grassroots it… do whatever little bit you can do, because if enough of us… stronger together is a real thing.”

  • Key closing quote:
    “At the end of the day, you deserve respect and you deserve compassion and fuck, you deserve basic human rights.”
    (Katie, 72:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote & Speaker | |-----------|----------------| | 05:39 | “Determination and just a little bit of spite. That’s how everything gets done.” – Katie | | 15:18 | “Most of the time when people throw around ‘communist, Marxist, etcetera’… ask them if they’ve actually read the Communist Manifesto, because nine times out of 10, if they say they have, they absolutely have not.” – Katie | | 33:30 | “The worst thing you could be [in the 1950s] was communist or gay. Or I suppose, communist and gay.” – Katie | | 43:20 | “What is wild is that Cohn here is the witchfinder General… But the irony is it is likely that Roy was a closeted homosexual.” – Katie | | 49:51 | “Some of the parameters that were accepted as evidence… also applied to McCarthy himself. At this point in time, he was an unmarried man in his 40s still living with his mother.” – Katie | | 61:40 | “Kameny said, fuck this for a game of soldiers and sued the federal government…” – Katie | | 72:30 | “At the end of the day, you deserve respect and you deserve compassion and fuck, you deserve basic human rights.” – Katie |

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Opening Observations & Pride Month setup: [02:41 – 09:47]
• Historical context — Red and Lavender Scare origins: [09:47 – 22:09]
• Rise of McCarthy, anti-communist/anti-gay paranoia: [31:40 – 41:40]
• Mechanics of the witch hunt, Roy Cohn, and hypocrisy: [41:40 – 53:51]
• Eisenhower’s Executive Order & expanding scare: [49:51 – 57:00]
• Personal stories of victims and early activism: [57:00 – 65:47]
• Legal pushback & impact – Dale Jennings and Kameny: [65:47 – 71:20]
• Reflections, call to action, and recommendations: [71:20 – 72:53]

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Recommendations (with a Personal Touch)

• For reading:
  Death in Heels by Kitty Murphy (first of the Dublin Drag Mystery series)

• For listening:
  “Go Outside” by George Michael

• For watching:
  Transaction (described as “comedy gold”)

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Tone & Style

Katie’s narration is witty, sharp, and unflinching, blending humor (“cult of clitoris,” “dog-like sniffle dogs for homosexuals”) with deep empathy and righteous anger toward injustices, frequently utilizing sarcasm and playful pop culture asides. She remains committed to historical accuracy, critical of governmental hypocrisy, and steadfastly supportive of queer resistance and dignity.

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Conclusion

This episode offers both a searing indictment of America’s Lavender Scare and a call to arms for today—reminding listeners that while history rarely ends in triumph for the marginalized, it is collective action and resilience that turns the tide.
Katie’s final message is clear: Don’t let history repeat; organize, vote, and support one another, because “stronger together is a real thing.”

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Transcript

[Narrator]

What's up, y'? All?

[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kalpen. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new Audible book audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jacob Goldstein]

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[Katie Charlewood]

And welcome to who did what now, the history podcast. That is not your history class with me, your host, Katie Charlewood, history highlight and reader of books. Now. I don't remember the last time Scotland were in the world cup now. I do, actually. I remember one of the times Scotland was in the World cup because they played Brazil and they won a match. They. They. That was probably the peak. It was, like, the first game, and it was the peak of the whole, like, show for them. Now, as someone who is half Scottish, I take great pride in the tartan army going to Boston, and Boston running out of booze now. I don't know why, but this is just absolutely golden to me. And also, like, all of the. The Asian tourists who are in Mexico and they're discovering, like, chips and salsa, like, it's. It's great. I love sort of cultural experiences that are being shared. And, like, I love the. The biggest thing, like, for me, is people discovering Costco. I love Costco, right? I. I went to a Costco when I was in the States. I. I'm a cheap date. You take me to the food court, which I haven't actually been to yet, because the one that I went to the food court was being, like, done up. But I did get some free samples. But, like, you take me to the food court in a Costco, I am your girl, okay? I support Costco. Like, I even have a sticker on my suitcase, which is like a Costco sticker, because it's just. It's amazing. Like, that's one of the fun things about the US Is, like, the. The grandness of it all. And by that, I mean the size, because I. I got a double gulp from a 7 11. It's. It's too. It's simply too large. It is too large for me. I could not. I could not handle it. And I'm someone who consumes a lot of beverages, like, in general, not like the Scots in Boston. Making Boston run out of booze. And I love. This was a whole thing. They're like, oh, no, no, no. Scots are going to come. Yeah, yeah. The top Nami drank Boston Dry, which is an achievement I think we can all agree upon. But I just think that's really funny. But, nah, I love. I love this. This whole thing. I love that ordinary citizens, like, are getting to see people enjoy their country as opposed to, like, oh, all this. That just gets shed out for, like, all this stuff. And there's a little bit of, you know, humanity and joy and consideration to one another. And I think that's the important part in all this. It's that human connection. And, like, oh, the football coins. I forgot about the football coins. Like, that is a Scottish tradition. Like, if you're statues, you're thinking, how did they get a traffic cone up there? Determination, okay? Determination and just a little bit of spite. That's how everything gets done. But, yes, I am really, really enjoying this whole scenario of just especially the top Nami. Because the amount of people who are like, hey, why is. Why are they all playing bagpipes? Like, does everyone in Scotland learn the bagpipes? It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's your last exam before you go into high school. It's like, eh, you power through the flower of Scotland or else you're fucked, pal.

[Bethenny Frankel]

Yes,

[Katie Charlewood]

it's Pride Month. It's Pride Month, actually. And what's interesting about Pride Month specifically now is, like, the. The town that I live in, Ireland, it has pride. It has wee pride. A little bit of pride. Not much, because we're Irish, so the only emotions we're allowed to have are shame and guilt. But that's what happens when you're raised Catholic. But here's the thing. We push those feelings down, down, down, down, down, down. So, like, instead of having emotional baggage, we have convenient little grief cases. But pride is new. And so, like, pride is happening up in my village, but last year it happened in August, and this year it happened at the end of May, which does feel a little bit like we just keep circumventing actual Pride Month. Now, I don't know why specifically this has sort of happened. I'm sure there's probably, like, a really good reason for it. And me bringing up has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I've never been invited to be involved, which I would totally do. I wouldn't be invited to do stuff because, like, I don't even know who to contact to be involved. I tried. Maybe I've just offended somebody. But anyway, it's Pride Month, and actually, the amount of celebrating Pride Month. We're celebrating Pride Month when. Why aren't we celebrating veterans? Why don't we have a Veterans Month? You do? Okay, United States of America. You do have a Veterans Month. It's November, the same month which contains International Men's Day, which, surprisingly enough, y' all don't seem to know about either. Like, ugh. Anyway, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, carrie, quit your dibble dabble. In fact, me. In fact, you. I will. But first, we've gotta get our source on. Our sources are Gay Ellity, a history of Sexual outlaws, power politics and Lipstick Lesbians by Lillian Federman and Stuart Timmins. The Lavender Scare, the Cold War persecution of gays and lesbians in the Federal Government by David K Johnson, before Stonewall. Activists for Gay and Lesbian Rights in Historical Context by Verne L Bulla. Gay Rights and Moral Panic. The Origins of America's Debate on Homosexuality by Fred Fehes, Congregational Investigations and the Lavender Scare by Judith Adkins. McCarthyism and the Second Red Scare by Landon Ry Storrs. And of course, our old favourites, thesmithsonian.com and biography.com are you sitting comfortably? Good. Then let's begin. Today, my dear friends, my delicious friends, some might even say we are going to be talking about the Lavender Scare. A moral panic, which you know what? I do know far too much about moral panics. Like, it's almost unnerving. Like it's become something that I have just gained a lot of knowledge in. It was never my intention to know specifically about moral panics, but here we are. Now, actually, before I go on, I should warn you. Content warning time. Klaxons are ringing. That's a really. I was gonna try and do a sound effect and then I just gave up before I even said a word. But content warning, trigger warning. There will be mentions of sexual assault and suicide this episode. So if that is something you don't think you can handle, if that's not something you want to hear about in any way, even as a reference, then maybe best to exit stage left and we will see you next time. So, the Lavender Scare, which, in case you were wondering, was very much linked with the Red Scare. Understanding one helps understand the other. And of course, we're gonna slip into some context, because the red scale came in waves, the first of which was in 1917, following the Bolshevik Russian Revolution. You know, the whole overthrowing the Romanovs, etc. If you've seen the animated movie Anastasia, it glosses over this quite a bit. It's like, oh, this stuff happened because of evil ghoulish Rasputin, as opposed to the. The government being overthrown by the people and the Bolsheviks and, you know, the murdering of a whole family after being kidnapped for a year, or maybe not even a full year. Anyway, I'm not an expert on the Romanovs. I know, like a bit. But, yeah, this kind of mass revolt really terrified the Western world. In fact, people worried that the same thing could happen in America. Could you imagine the people having power? The nerve. It's almost as if the powers that be forget that it is in fact working class people that are the backbone of society. Especially back then. See, after the end of the First World War, people started demanding a better work environment. What? Shocking. I know Right. Because like, health and safety wasn't a huge consideration back in interwar America. Neither was fair pay for fair day's work. But then collectively, workers began holding strikes for better working conditions and better pay. Now I always remember the story of goodness. It was someone talking about, oh, my dad used to say that, you know, Christmases were so weird. One year you'd get a bucket, the next year you get a bike. And like they were relaying this story to like their grandma and, and their gran had just gone. Yeah, the year they got bikes was the year we joined the union. Like tada. It's because you were being paid fairly, you were able to get a bike for Christmas. You know, um, and that's something that people like, forget. Like the whole purpose of a union is to ensure that the workers, you know, are paid fairly and that they are safe and secure in their positions and they're not going to be screwed over by, you know, the business owners. Anyhow, instead of treating it like it was, you know, workers expecting to get paid fairly and have lower risks of being maimed or killed during the workday, the American press decided to portray these acts as something decidedly un American. But wait, there's more. Apart from being distasteful to one of the best muppets of all, Sam the Eagle, it was clearly the first steps to communism. The press were utilized by companies and the governments because how could everyone keep getting higher profits if they actually had to invest in their workforce? Thanks to the smear campaign by the news agencies, the US government was able to push the workers down. And with this, the seeds of distrust were sown. And from there, well, it kind of snowballed. That very year, Woodrow Wilson, the 28th president of the United States, passed the 1918 Sedition act, which limited the exercise of free speech by criminalising any language that could be seen as disloyal to the U.S. government. And around this time, certain states passed laws that allowed the police to investigate, imprison and deport people that they suspected of being communist. But wait, there's more. Not just people they thought might possibly, a little bit, maybe could be communist, but also anyone with left leaning politics. Now this may come a surprise to some of you gentle listeners, but back then they had trouble distinguishing between socialism, communism, anarchism, social democracy, yada yada, yada, yada yada. Okay, sidebar. Most of the time when people throw around communist, Marxist, etcetera, Ask them if they've actually read the Communist Manifesto, because nine times out of 10, if they say they have they absolutely have not. Like. Like, they're lying, okay? What they've done is listen to what someone else has said about it, or they've read someone else's Cliff Notes about it, but they've not read it. Most people haven't read it. Right? I read it because I had to, Right? But, yeah, because I studied sociology, which is actually really funny because I remember saying that I studied sociology to someone one time, and they were like, well, of course you did, you Marxist. And I was like, do you think socialism and sociology are the same thing? You think that Karl Marx invented the study of all societies? Do you think that? Or did you find two words that sound vaguely similar and went, that must be it? No, no, no, no, no. This happens all the time. But, like, yeah, so these people very, very rarely actually know the difference between Communism, Stalinism, socialism, Marxism, so on and so forth. Like, they're different. They're not the same things. I mean, if Stalinism is out there on its fucking own, right? That's. That's like. I'd argue that Stalinism is its own form of totalitarianism, like, on its own. Like, it's just absolute tomfuckery. Now, finally, there's always this argument about how there's been no successful communist country. That's because anytime a regime has genuinely tried it, it's been attacked by a military force from a capitalist nation who has funded coups, disrupted trade relations, and a bunch of other bollocks that we will get into another day. Now you're thinking, hey, Katie, you big, filthy lefty. And I'm like, hey, my favorite thing about Marx, right? I'm last. Last thing about Karl Marx, right? I promise this episode is that Marxism only exists within capitalism. Like Marxism cannot exist out with a capitalist structure. Because the core of Marxism is effectively, the rich should not be as rich and the poor should not be as poor. Asset. Like, that's the core factor, right? That's what it all boils down to, is nobody should be too fucking rich. Nobody should be too fucking poor, right? Unfortunately, capitalism relies on debt to survive anyway. So the Red Scare clumped all of these together. Anything left was so bad, it was practically and sometimes literally treason. But eventually, the red scale died down up until the years following the Second World War. It's almost as if there's a pattern here.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Narrator]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections. And it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and I Heart Audiobook Club on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Katie Charlewood]

The second Red Scare rears its ugly head during the early years of the Cold War between the USA and the ussr, which is less of an actual war and more of an ideological one. But this second wave is spearheaded, or more accurately given gusto by Wisconsin Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy, which has led to this whole thing often being known as McCarthyism. But three years before his frothing at the mouth campaign, which feels very cult of clitoris if you ask me, there was President Harry s. Truman, the 34th president of the United States, who had signed an executive order to screen any federal employees for any association with organizations that were seen to be communist, fascist, totalitarian, or even subversive. It's kind of like they had this assumption of sort of the old enemy and the new. So you have the older enemy, which is like fascism and Nazis, even though they hired many as scientists, hello, Operation Paperclip. And then the new enemy, which is like communism. Now, post war America is complicated. The First World War happened and everyone was told that it was the war to end all wars. And then the Second World War happened right off the back of the Depression. Well, not long after depression, things were starting to look up. And then depression. And for some people, things were looking up. The us, it had gone through this massive upheaval. It was barely back on its feet and people were afraid that another war was coming. This fear had compounded with the rumor that the Soviets were already making nuclear weapons. So you've got the usa, this big upheaval over one and a half generations, the threat of being nuked by the commies. Then you have all of these internal changes. The start of the civil rights movement, more and more women were entering or staying in the workforce, and the queer community was becoming more visible to general society. And here's the thing about government, right? The whole thing. I mean, the US Government anyway, at least at this time. And most governments in the world run by dudes, right? I think the Senate at this point had two female senators out of a hundred. Like, there was a female senator back in the 20s, and she was a senator for one day. And it was like a whole publicity thing to get women to vote. It was just. Or vote the right way. You know, it was more of a decorative position than an actual one. But yeah, no, there no women for, like, years and years and years and years and years. And now you have two female senators out of a hundred senators. And in case you're wondering, the House of Representatives had eight women serving out of 435. And for posterity, there were no Asian or black senators serving at this time. I checked. There was, however, African American representation in the House of Representatives. Not much, but there was. Like, there wasn't a black senator in the United States, like, from the end of the restoration up until 1966. Like, that is. That is the time period now there was an Asian senator. When Hawaii, like, became. Was it the 50th state? This is probably like something that you learn in elementary school. And it's like, yeah, Hawaii became the 50th state. It's the last one. And that's like, that's something you all learn when you're like, little. That's not. We don't learn that over my side of the pond. It's not a thing. But yeah, so when Hawaii becomes a State in 1959, that's when there's finally, you know, Asian Pacific Islander representation in the Senate. Now out with that.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Not.

[Katie Charlewood]

Not a lot, really. So effectively, the government is mainly a pale and stale male scenario. These men in power saw a society changing and didn't like the look of that. And so they started pushing for the good old days and traditional values. Like, this is actually where the myth of the nuclear family is born. Like, they want to enforce a system that continues to provide them power and control. So while some members of society are excited for change, others the bail and stalemails thought that this was the destruction of America as they know it. And as always, there was a man ready to capitalize on that fear. The aforementioned Senator Joseph Raymond McCarthy.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out odoo@o d o o.com that's o d o o.com

[Kal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with Lily Chu, the author of the the Audible original romantic comedy Just Kiss Already. It's a story about a forensic anthropologist who secretly writes mystery novels, an actress who adapts his book into a film, and what happens when a meme and a media tour collide with a slow burn romance. It's performed by Simu Liu and Philippa Su, and it is an absolute blast.

[Katie Charlewood]

When you actually hear the performance, you

[Bethenny Frankel]

realize that other people are taking your

[Katie Charlewood]

words and what you thought was kind of a straightforward sentence like the cat

[Bethenny Frankel]

in the corner is black.

[Katie Charlewood]

In my head it's the cat in

[Bethenny Frankel]

the corner is black, not the dog, not the gerbil.

[Katie Charlewood]

But someone else might say it the cat in the corner is black.

[Bethenny Frankel]

That's always fascinating to me how they just bring in all these different nuances and really make it fun and interesting and distinctive.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Redfin Advertiser]

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[Bethenny Frankel]

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[Katie Charlewood]

So McCarthy wasn't exactly what you would call a rock star politician. He wasn't even a pop star. He wasn't even in the Indies really. He was just kind of there. He wasn't making waves. He was altogether unremarkable. Like he never passed an important bill. And his complete and total, well, madness was forcing him to trickle out of favour, along with the fact that he was a liar, insufferable and generally disliked by the majority of his fellow senators. Like all of this was causing his political career to go down the tube. Something that was becoming clear to him because, you know, his entire political career was circling the drain because on 9 February 1950, while the top politicians were congregating in Washington D.C. to celebrate Lincoln's birthday, he was relegated to speaking at a Lincoln dinner at the Republican Women's Group of West Virginia. Right? They were all at the Lincoln party and he is here chatting to these old ladies right now. He has a speech about the importance of housing for disabled veterans. Now that's a fairly noble cause. There should be, you know, procedures in place to help veterans, especially disabled veterans. Like, yeah, now that is what he's supposed to be doing. Now for the sake of accuracy, because, you know, there was no exact agreement on what McCarthy said at the dinner. Like nobody knows word for word or verbatim, none of that, right? But it is agreed that he goes off on one, right? McCarthy rants about how America is being beaten by all these other countries. They are gaining end technology and the like. Well, the US has fallen behind. He goes on to claim that the US isn't Keeping its citizens safe. And he says this is all because of the enemies within. He straight up claims that the U.S. state Department and other government agencies have been infiltrated by communist agents, telling you call it a clitoris. It's the cult of clitoris, okay? Except it's the delegation of Dex. I don't know. I don't know. That was a bad. That was a bad reference. But he pulls out this strip of paper and he's waving about, spouting that. Upon this page there are the names of 205 men from the State Department who have been named as members of the Communist Party. Now this was a big deal. Like Ron Burgundy. See, the word communist set off alarm bells for people. It was almost a dirty word. And he is shining a light directly at the State Department, which initially denied any such thing. But with all this traction, many leaders were regurgitating this idea that there were undercover communists infiltrating their lives and influencing you without you noticing. Commies could be everywhere, anywhere. Journalists, teachers, artists, underneath your floorboards, living in your attic, only coming down to steal sandwiches from your fridge. Maybe. Now, McCarthy also made the distinct connection with communism and homosexuality because in the 1950s, the worst thing you could be was communist or gay. Or I suppose, communist and gay. McCarthy created a culture of suspicion and fear across the United States. And if you disagreed, you were disloyal to the country. No one trusted anyone. And you could be arrested if you were being perceived as too radical. Direct quote, homosexuals mustn't be handling top secret materials. The pervert is easier prey to the blackmailer. It is, it is so cult of clitoris, it's unreal. Like he's shouting about how gay people will be blackmailed by the reds into giving away America's secrets. Like somebody called Maud Alan, right? This obviously sets off the homophobes who are practically salivating at the idea of ruining the lives of queer people. You have good God fearing folks word that this will spread and will taint American society. And you've got the media just all fired up into a frenzy. And what do you know? Finally this sack of shit has all the attention he ever wanted. And this is where he really shows just how sleek it he is. He goes to the press and tells him that there is a secret report from inside the government proof of the entire gay communist situation. And within this report, the confirmed firing of 91 homosexual men from their government positions. Now here's, here's the thing. He's not talking out of his arcs here, at least not completely. Though, well, 91 men fired from the government. You know, they were fired from their government jobs for being gay. But this had actually happened about five years before this. And so he's using this old information to make waves and just keep that spotlight on himself. For a lot of people, this is proof that McCarthy is onto something. They were writing him letters thanking him for keeping America safe. Meanwhile, he's using rumours and intimidation to set himself up as one of the most powerful figures in American politics at this time. That he would throw accusations around like jib jibs, accusing anyone who disagreed with him as being a communist, a communist sympathiser, or simply a homosexual. Now, this did make some people bend the knee, but this whole witch hunt led to the moulding of people in positions of power to match his views and forcing those who didn't, basically, basically pushing everyone out who didn't concur with his opinions and beliefs. And the press, they're lapping up, right? Fear sells newspapers, right? Scandal sells newspapers. And you know what else sells newspapers? Fucking conspiracies, right? And Senator Joseph McCarthy hooks up this list of people working in the government that he believes are communist, Communist sympathizers are gay. And the government begins terrorizing and destroying the gay community in the name of National Security Day. Because closeted people were easy targets for blackmail by foreign agents. And so membership in left leaning political groups dropped during this time. And cell surprise, the queer scene just fled deeper underground. What's funny about this whole thing is like no one, no one at any point thought, well, if we just decriminalized homosexuality, thus removing the very thing that attracts the blackmailers, then they won't have anything to blackmail people with. If we made being gay acceptable, then how are they going to blackmail them? Because there's nothing to blackmail them with, right? But no, ostracizing the queer community even further was apparently the way to go. It just shows the level of paranoia because like the military does an investigation, like the government does an investigation, like there's a whole thing, right? And not one United States citizen, right, had spelled secrets under blackmail, right? No one had been blackmailed into giving secrets, right? No one. Some people sold secrets, some people were double agents. But, like, nobody was blackmailed, like, especially not for being gay, right? So the lavender scare goes into full swing because the news were that 91 gay men had been removed from the government. The question swelled. How did so many homosexuals manage to infiltrate the government? How many were still there? And just how many more people had been corrupted by homosexuality? Now this caused a knock on effect like because once businesses saw the government removing people for being gay, that gave them carte blanche to do the same. In this scare it gets teeth, right? Because Truman is actually accused of not doing enough to combat the great threat of homosexuality to the nation. As a result, in June of that year, four months after his first gammon ramble, the Senate began an investigation into into the employment of homosexuals within the government and accusations they're being thrown around all over the place, right? If you were accused, you're basically screwed. You were collected from your home and then brought in to testify under oath to government officials, sometimes in a private office, sometimes in Congress. You're talking about your life, intimate details about your life, from your political affiliations to your friends, your family to your sex life. It's all very intense. And some people were forced to resign, others didn't want to risk being outed and just quietly left and moved to another sector and hoped, you know, this would just blow over. Because it wasn't just about being outed, it was about being seen as disloyal to America. Now again, this knock on effect was happening and there was no guarantee that you were safe. Unfortunately this led to the misdirection situation where the only way to shake off the accusation of being a big gay communist with was to acute other people of being homosexual lefties in McCarthy, this shitbag even goes after the librarians. Like he's convinced that just because the libraries hold communist materials, like they've got books on Marxism and shit, right? So because of this the libraries must be secret meeting places for commies and the Alphabet mafia. Watch out, it's a well read lesbian. Hide your children like but wait, there's more. McCarthy's subcommittee looking into the communist influences on American life has Roy Marcus Cohen as chief counsel. Now this really is a gruesome twosome, right? Roy, he came from good stock, he was from a well connected family, he was well educated. He came out of Columbia Law with something to prove. So when he gets to Washington, he wants the trumpets blaring, he wants to make it big. And he jumps on the first trend which is going after communists. And he made a name for himself in one of the most infamous trials of the early 20th century. He was the prosecutor against the Rosenbergs, right? It's just he's that guy. Now Cohn was always in the papers, front page headlines about the perversions of homosexuality and how it had to be eradicated. What is wild is that Cohn here is the witchfinder General, like he has the highest possible position, like in this witch hunting scenario. But the irony is it is likely that Roy was a closeted homosexual. Now I hate the trope of the self hating gay gets thrown around bigots, but it's a cop out because some homophobes are just shitty people. But back to Roy for a sec. See, his friends in later years would say that he was very open at home and with his friends. However, professionally, he was closeted. It's like he's throwing mud so it doesn't stick to him. You know, I'm not making any assumptions about the man because there are different ways in which HIV can be contracted. But I would be remiss if I did not say that he passed away at the age of 59 from complications related to AIDS. Now, before you start feeling too sorry for the man, he was complicit in destroying the lives of gay men under his tenure. Like in the space of a few months, actually. 425 men were fired from their government positions for the crime of being gay. Their lives ruined, their livelihoods gone, and many of them committed suicide.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay, the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary. Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Narrator]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as a. As I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo. Is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah dude, me too.

[Kal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win. Not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning.

[Bethenny Frankel]

That's redfin.com this is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100 human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy. Dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfood4dogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

[Katie Charlewood]

Which brings us to Joseph McCarthy himself. What's interesting is that some of the parameters that were accepted as evidence, you know, that someone was a homosexual communist also applied to McCarthy himself. At this point in time, he was an unmarried man in his 40s still living with his mother. But the plot thickens. Allegedly, McCarthy was a frequent visitor to the White Horse Inn, a gay bar in Milwaukee. Now there is a consistent narrative in his preference for younger men. In his FBI file it says there are statements from an army lieutenant who was picked up by McCarthy in a hotel in Washington. He gets him absolutely blotto and then they have anal sex. J. Edgar Hoover, who was a buddy of McCarthy, said reports like this were just homosexuals trying to sully McCarthy's name and reputation. On the flip side, and this gets horrible because of course there's more. There are reports of McCarthy being unable to take his hands off of young girls, especially when he had been drinking. And that is something that is said by friends of his, people who supported him and liked him. Okay, that's where this is coming from. In other news, Joseph McCarthy got married in January 1953 to Jean Fraser Kerr. They would go on to adopt a baby four years later with the help of Cohen's dear friend, Cardinal Francis Spellman, the Archbishop of New York. Oh, he acquired a baby for the rich people, did he? I wonder where this cardinal acquired this baby, huh? Maybe we should ask a nun. Which brings us to Eisenhower. That is right, 31st President of the United States, Dwight D. Eisenhower, who issues the executive order 10450, which orders all federal agencies and government contractors to fire anyone who fell under the criteria any criminal, infamous, dishonest, immoral, or notoriously disgraceful conduct, habitual use of intoxicants, or to excess and sexual perversion. Now, I don't mean to say that it's painting with a wide brush there. Like it's somehow specific and yet very deliberately vague, right? It just seems to have you all encompassing and yet very much open to interpretation. So this was all done under the pretext of strengthening security procedures because, lest we forget, homosexuals were a massive threat to national security. Like, here's, here's the main issue, right? Between the federal agencies and all the government contractors. The government, at this point in time, the government was the largest employer in the country. And so it affected so much more. Like so many, like, branches into society. Like people were just being screwed everywhere. And agencies even established new procedures for detecting homosexual men and women. Like, everything is very much within a gender binary here. Like this continues on for actual decades. You know, that someone is either gay or straight. Now the, the idea that a bisexual person could exist, that I'm fairly certain it wasn't even generally accepted until like the millennium. Like, like it was, it was a whole, it was a whole thing, right? The idea of someone being bisexual was just odd because, I mean, the interesting thing is that it always revolves around men. So like if, like there was this idea for years that, you know, men could just like turn a lesbian straight Right. And if, you know, like, at one point, the metrosexual was, like, a thing that people were saying about men who were clean in the city and sometimes had a bag, like messenger bags. It was. It was very much like, ooh, look at Mr. Fancy Pants with his messenger bag. It was a weird time. Right now, they actually. There was like a. A system. Like, people were trained to spot gay people, like sniffle dogs for homosexuals. But, you know, sometimes someone just has bacon in their pocket, because these agencies are looking for every teeny, tiny little hint that someone could possibly maybe be gay. If a woman seemed more butch than your average Josephine, well, you're out. A man has a higher voice. Well, you are being hunted in whether or not you were actually gay or straight. Like, you were absolutely buggled. Eyes of suspicion would fall upon you if you had friends or family members who were lgbtq. Police raids became more common, with known gay spots being raided more often. If you were accused, there was a polygraph test, which we all know is bullshit. Like, if you're nervous or angry, it's not gonna give the right answer. The Lavender scare is basically this precursor to stonewall. Like, it led to it, and this harassment and abuse just continues. And it gets worse because McCarthy decides to take on the army, which is something you just don't do. He accuses the army of hiding communists and supporting draft dodgers, all while McCarthy had lied about all of his wartime achievements. But that's another rant for another day. But the army shoots back with, well, Roy Cohen was supposed to be drafted, but we didn't because you personally asked him not to be. Now, my favourite thing is, like, McCarthy was shocked. They, you know, called him out. They were like, what? But we pinky promised, man. So this just riles McCarthy up and he publicly accuses the Army's lawyer of having communists in his law firm. And this blows up spectacularly in his face. And he starts losing power. He's kept on as a senator, but nobody really listens to his bollocks again. And it doesn't really matter because he dies of liver failure on the 2nd of May, 1957. And the hunt continues, but not for Communists. The fervor for commie hunting kind of died down because there wasn't exactly a playbook on how to spot communists, because McCarthy did it all on vape, right? But there was still a threat pushed by Senator Clyde Hoey. Hoey. So that the Hoey Commission. I'm gonna call him Hoy. I don't care how they pronounce it. I'm calling him Hoy. So the Hoey Commission turned the lavender scare all the way up to 11. They state there is one target, okay, the gays. There is a massive shakedown and the commission interrogates everyone, policemen, judges, doctors, government staff, everybody. They want names, they want places, they want dates. And they released to the press that out of the 5,000 queer people in Washington D.C. 3,700 of them worked for the government. Quick, grab your smelling salts, right? They go after so many people, right? So many people. Like there's Carmel Offie, who had worked in the US Government for yonks. Like, he had been, you know, working for diplomats. He'd been all over, like. And then he becomes the assistant to the ambassador, William C. Bullet, right? And so he ends up meeting like the Kennedys. He's in Paris, he's in Russia. He's like, in all these places and he's like the guy who's like, gossipy because, like, Bullet's a gossipy bitch and so is fucking Offy here. They're gossipy, but they can also, like, offy can find anything. He's the guy who can acquire like the secret Russian caviar and all that kind of stuff, right? So in 1943, he was cruising in Lafayette Park. Yes, I have gone back in time. It's relevant. So he's in Lafayette Park, D.C. now, cruising was a big part of gay culture. It was one of the only ways to safely get it on. But he approaches this undercover police officer and gets arrested for disorderly conduct. Now he was close to so many politicians that this got hush hushed. And there was like this whole spiel about how he was there on official government business. Like the State Department gets involved and they're like, yeah, he was totally there on an errand. And you looked like the person he was supposed to meet about official government business, important business, so much business, right? So it's done. He loses like that job, but he's got all these connections from like again, diplomat to the Kennedys. So he just gets a job in like a different area, skip forward a few years. And he's very openly saying that he's gay, but he's not a communist. And because he was open and everyone really knew, how could he be blackmailed? He's like, but everybody knows, like, he was as openly gay as someone could be, like back then. Which is like a common, like recurring statement about him. But again, with a lavender scare, he's fired again. Originally there was no trial, but the Holy Commission was determined to pull Everyone up and have it on record. Now, apart from being a bit gossipy, Offee was seen as, quote, normal. Amy was also really good at his job. But the HOI Commission wanted the record, right? They wanted the record to state that gay people were mentally unfit and dangerous. So they bring in a bunch of people to reinforce this, which kind of goes well until it gets to a bunch of medical professionals who are like, no. Now when the Hoya report comes out, they'll let these doctors have their heads in the sand, like. And it stated, one homosexual can pollute a government office. And that was the nail in many a coffin because although some still manage to rise up, like Dr. Franklin, Edward Kameny, who after the Second World War got his doctorate in astronomy from Harvard in 1957, gets a job. He's accepted as an astronomer for the Army Map Service. But he ends up being filed just months later when the executive order came through. And while others hid away, Khameney said, fuck this for a game of soldiers and sued the federal government saying that discrimination against someone because of their sexual orientation was a violation of their civil rights and that there was zero connection between someone's personal off duty life and the ability for them to do their job. Now, he did lose twice in federal court with his appeal refused by the Supreme Court. But he did not give up and instead became a full time gay rights activist. He would go on to protest at the Pentagon, the White House, the United nations, the U.S. civil Service Commission and Philadelphia's Independence Hall. He launched the campaign to overturn D.C. sodomy laws in 1967. With the bill passed 30 years later, he even got homosexuality removed as a mental illness from the dsm. You know, one day I'm going to do a full episode on him because I don't think I'm doing him justice here. All right? So anyway, another thing he did was he organized the first advocacy group for gay rights like the Mattachine society of Washington D.C. now, the Mattachine Society was an anonymous group of gay men, or at least anonymous as much as it could be. Now, they were never really seen with each other or pictured together because they had to keep each other safe. And remember, like, whether some were in lavender marriages or were, you know, married, married, they still had to protect their spouse and or children. Now, the Mattachine Society, it's sort of like this is like the Washington, like charter of it. Now there was the original Mattachine Society which was in la, a founding member of which was Dale Jennings, right? He was a playwright and an author. And he was arrested for allegedly soliciting a police officer in a toilet at Westlake park, which is now MacArthur Park. So he's in Westlake park on the 21st of March, 1952, and he goes in to use the toilet. Now, Westlake is a known cruising spot. But again, according to Jennings, he uses the loo. But as he leaves, there's a dude kind of being creepy. It's creeping about. So Jennings legs it, and this dude is still behind him. He heads in the direction of the cinema, so the movie theater. And he realizes he's still being tailed. So instead of going inside, he heads home. So, like, he makes it to his apartment. Like, he gets in, but the stalker follows him inside. And now it's where it gets weird. And you're thinking, this is already weird, Katie. And I'm like, it gets worse. But wait, there's more. This random dude just lies down on his bed. Jennings, right?

[Bethenny Frankel]

He's.

[Katie Charlewood]

He's a bit perplexed by the situation because he's expecting to be like, robbed or murdered. But this is odd. This stranger followed him home, broke into his apartment, lays on his bed and is now demanding sex. And Jennings is like, ew, no. The stranger gets off the bed, goes up to him and tries to force Jennings hands down his trousers. And Dale is like, absolutely not. And then, boom. Handcuffs. He's arrested and put in the back of the police car where he is interrogated while they drive around really, really slowly, right? Like they're threatening him and they're, you know, going around and. Yeah, eventually they take him to the station where he is arrested for lewd vagrancy, which was the most common charge with undercover stings like this. It's basically cruising for sex, right? So when he is finally allowed to make his phone call at 3am, he calls the Mattachine Society. They get the money, they manage to scrape it together, and they bail him out at half six in the morning. Typically, if you were entrapped in this way, you know, by the cops, you just paid your fine and go on with your life. But Dale Jennings was sick of this shit. And so he decided to take this to court. Now, this is a secret group which kind of thrives on anonymity, right? And so they make a separate committee to raise money for Jennings campaign. The Citizens Committee to Outlaw Entrapment. They made Flyles and they put them everywhere. All the cruising spots, all the haunts they were putting into people's hands when they could. It was all over the shop, right? And he gets George Shibley to represent him. Now, in the courtroom, Dale Jennings does something that no one expects. He admits to being gay. He's just a gay man using a public urinal. And the only pervert in the court was that widow officer who followed him home and broke into his apartment. And so the jury, they all agree, apart from, like, one person, that Dale Jennings is innocent. And this results in a hung jury. But yet it's. It's kind of a victory, like. Like, it just reminds me of that. That line in. In Buffy and the Musical where Giles rip Anthony Stewart head, where he goes, the battle's done and we kind of won. So we sound our victory cheer like that, and I'm like, yeah, kinda, you know, it's kind of. Kinda sorta. Yeah, I mean, small victories and you take them where you can, you know? But here's the thing. Around 10,000 people lost their jobs and livelihoods because of the lavender scare. Those who were dismissed, forced to resign, those who did not or could not become activists, those who literally lost their lives, they did not receive a personal apology for what had happened to them. In 2015, the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, apologised to the LGBT community on behalf of the federal government. But the lavender scare forced every queer person out of government, a government that maintained and sort of kept producing this conservative culture. And as much as I would like to claim the lavender scare is in the past, the attacks on the dolls in recent years show that there is a lot to be concerned about. I wish I had a happier note to end on for a Pride episode, but history rarely has a happy ending. Now, that being said, if we work together, if we fight for each other, we might be able to help each other out with this. And for all of my amazing, wonderful listeners in the us, get voting, get involved, grassroots it, you know, message people, design flyers, you know, answer hotlines, like, whatever little bit you can do, do it. Because if enough of. I mean, I don't want to have to quote the Three Ninjas, which is a classic movie, Fight Me a rope of one string. I may be paraphrasing. A rope of one string is very easy to break. A rope made of three strings no enemy can cut. Now, again, paraphrasing and children's 90s movies. But that's the thing. Stronger together is a real thing. Like, you can't get rid of everybody. And if everybody's fighting and standing up for basic ethics and humanity, right? Because at the end of the day, you deserve respect and you deserve compassion and fck you deserve basic human rights. But with that, before I go off on a rat like I did at a barista when they joked about the riots happening in Northern Ireland, I think he learned his lesson. But I'm gonna stop here. And if you made it this far, please remember to, you know, choose where I should go on tour. Like, I'm already looking at venues and spots. So if you want to see me get telling me where to be, I can follow the socials and all that jazz. But now, recommendations. Time for reading. Because as you know, I am a reader of books. So there is a murder mystery series by a queer writer, Kitty Murphy, right? The first book in the Dublin drag mystery series is Death in Heels. Go get it. It's amazing. Go read it. Go Give her love to Kitty. For listening for no reason whatsoever. I think everybody should listen to Go Outside by George Michael and for watching Transaction, it's comedy gold. And with that, I will Gene Wilder and bid you good day. To you, sir. I said good day. Adios. Au revoir. Au revoir, my friends. Bye bye.

[Kal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Katie Charlewood]

Hey, did you know Dietzon Watson has been family owned for over 85 years? To us, that means it's more than a business. It's personal. We make our premium meats and cheeses the right way, even if it's slower or inconvenient or hard, because that's how you get the highest quality. If it's not good enough for our family, it's not good enough for yours. And while others can cut corners, we keep raising the bar. So if you see the Dietz and Watson name, you'll know every slice has my family's seal of approval. Dietz and Watson. It's a family thing since 1939.

[Redfin Advertiser]

Picture this. Me, Reese Witherspoon in London ordering fish and chips so often they might start

[Bethenny Frankel]

wrapping me in paper.

[Redfin Advertiser]

I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autograph Journey card, so I earn rewards wherever

[Katie Charlewood]

I book travel five times points with

[Redfin Advertiser]

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[Katie Charlewood]

times on restaurants and other travel and

[Redfin Advertiser]

one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole.

[Katie Charlewood]

Wait, what is a toad in a hole?

[Kal Penn]

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[Katie Charlewood]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Katie Charlewood]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Katie Charlewood]

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