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apro vecha los ahoros de Memorial Day in Los y compra los vasicos parelo gar pormenos ahoro centadolares en la parrilla agas de cuatro que madores char broil Performance Series.
Jay McLaughlin
Wait, are are two people a group.
Katie Charlwood
Foreign?
Jay McLaughlin
You're listening to Day and Nightshade. Before we begin our dive into the world of all things poison, a quick note. This podcast discusses real life cases involving poisoning, violence and death, which some listeners may find upsetting. Please listen at your own risk. This episode includes references to infant and child death. Take care while listening and enjoy the episode.
Katie Charlwood
Hey Hi. Hello.
Jay McLaughlin
Welcome to Day and Nightshade, the podcast where history's most infamous poisoners meet their match. And by match, I mean, well, us, armed with, quite frankly, unhealthy amount of research. I'm Jay. I'm one of your guides for this episode through the murky world of Victorian England and the somewhat stupid poisoner, Mr. William Palmer.
Katie Charlwood
And I'm Katie, here to provide some scientific insight, a brain full of random facts and the occasional shocked gasp. So this is the very first episode of what we hope will be a very long running podcast, Day and Nightshade.
Jay McLaughlin
We both don't want it to end. Really.
Katie Charlwood
No. It's the only way that we can force each other to spend time with each other because we have ADHD and we keep forgetting to communicate.
Jay McLaughlin
But also, I live in a Different country. And like I said, I'm Jay. I live in Germany.
Katie Charlwood
Near the Black Forest.
Jay McLaughlin
Near the Black Forest, which is a cool place to talk about poisons and mushrooms, but it means that we can't see each other in person all that often. And so this podcast is a way to keep our friendship alive.
Katie Charlwood
That's basically what we're doing it for. So you need to listen to it, otherwise you're gonna ruin our friendship.
Jay McLaughlin
It's gonna be your fault.
Katie Charlwood
It will be your fault.
Jay McLaughlin
That's a great way to introduce people to this. With a threat. No, we've been friends for almost 10 years.
Katie Charlwood
Almost.
Jay McLaughlin
Regardless of me being in Germany or not. And, yeah, we both have a fascination for true crime, and very specifically for poisons and Poisonaires. You might know Katie.
Katie Charlwood
You might know me from my globally charged, topping podcast.
Jay McLaughlin
You might know me from podcast. Yeah. You're so famous. I'm.
Katie Charlwood
No, I actually have a sweatshirt that says nobody. Nobody cares if you're Internet famous.
Jay McLaughlin
I definitely don't care. I knew you before the fame.
Katie Charlwood
That's true. That's true.
Jay McLaughlin
It poisoned you. You see what I did there?
Katie Charlwood
See what I did? I like that.
Jay McLaughlin
No, Katie's podcast is awesome. It's who did what now? Pod, if you want to listen to it.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah, and I think I'm probably gonna, as a. You may be listening to this episode as a preliminary drop on my podcast channel, just. Just so that you know where you're gonna be going.
Jay McLaughlin
We will be doing the things.
Katie Charlwood
We will be doing things. So make sure to share care and listen to Day and Nightshade.
Jay McLaughlin
Thank you. Today, as I said, we're going to be talking about William Palmer, Dr. Gambler, murderer, a man who you'd think would be good at those three things. But no. No. He was shockingly terrible at every single one of them and extremely bad at hiding his crimes.
Katie Charlwood
For someone called the Prince of Poisoners, he had all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop.
Jay McLaughlin
Honestly, if poisoners had a ranking scale, he'd be somewhere between Captain Obvious and practically waving a giant red flag.
Katie Charlwood
And yet, somehow, he still managed to murder at least 14 people. Allegedly.
Jay McLaughlin
Allegedly. We can't. It's been a long time. But it's alleged. We don't know. Important word there. Allegedly. Because if he's listening from the afterlife, I'd like to say William, but we know you did it. It's pretty damn obvious, and the jury
Katie Charlwood
certainly thought so as well.
Jay McLaughlin
So, anyway, let's get back to where it all began, shall we?
Katie Charlwood
I Was about to make an entropy joke like harp playing.
Jay McLaughlin
I went with lesbian purring.
Katie Charlwood
For some reason. I don't.
Jay McLaughlin
No. Anyway, picture the scene. Picture the scene, Katie. In your mind's eye.
Katie Charlwood
I'm picturing Roxley.
Jay McLaughlin
Staffordshire, England. The year 1824. A child is born. No, not into poverty, but into a wealthy family with eight kids.
Katie Charlwood
No.
Jay McLaughlin
Yes.
Katie Charlwood
No.
Jay McLaughlin
Yes. No. Yes. Two parents, Sarah and Joseph Palmer.
Katie Charlwood
And.
Jay McLaughlin
Eight kids.
Katie Charlwood
Eight kids. Eight, yes. Little fresh humans. And they had money. The thing that. Wait. The thing that usually helps people, like not become criminals. You. You.
Jay McLaughlin
You think that. You'd think that it would, but no. See, Mr. Palmer had a gift. He could take a perfectly fine situation and completely ruin it. Destroy it. Goodbye, calm. Hello, William Palmer.
Katie Charlwood
I mean that is a little bit relatable in fairness. He falls into roses and comes out smelling a shit. Seems to be a bit.
Jay McLaughlin
Seems belialife. But the thing is that, dear William, that I didn't murder people. So as much as I can relate slightly, I don't relate to that yet legally.
Katie Charlwood
That was a joke. That was a joke.
Jay McLaughlin
That was a joke. It's one of those joke things that I sometimes do. So his father.
Katie Charlwood
His father.
Jay McLaughlin
His father was a Sawyer.
Katie Charlwood
Do you know, you say he was a Sawyer?
Jay McLaughlin
He was a. He was a Sawyer.
Katie Charlwood
You say so.
Jay McLaughlin
I know so.
Katie Charlwood
You say so.
Jay McLaughlin
I saw so.
Katie Charlwood
You saw. So he was a Sawyer?
Jay McLaughlin
I saw so. He was a Sawyer. This makes no sense.
Katie Charlwood
So a Sawyer, for those of you who don't know, is a person who works in a sawmill.
Jay McLaughlin
Nice little tidbit of info there. Thank you.
Katie Charlwood
Can I also like interject with a wee question?
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, sure.
Katie Charlwood
His father was a Sawyer and they were rich.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. I mean, the likelihood is he owned the sawmill or at least had some level of stakes in it. But Joseph Palmer, his father actually died when William was 12 and left the family with a £70,000 inheritance.
Katie Charlwood
70. £70,000.
Jay McLaughlin
£70,000 then.
Katie Charlwood
Okay, so that would be. I'm sorry, over £6 million today. Okay, I'm sorry. Color me suspicious.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, I think. I think that the life insurance that he managed to take out as a Sawyer for £70,000. 6 million. We're gonna say 6 million because that's what we can understand. Is that that much money? Yeah, he took out life insurance for 6 million and they somehow managed to make that happened. But anyway, back to William. So William ended up going to study medicine. He became a doctor. And like for a while there, everything in his life was calm. Everything seemed fine. But you see, William had a fatal Flaw.
Katie Charlwood
Strict night.
Jay McLaughlin
I mean. Yeah, but what I'm talking here, though, is gambling specifically. The man adored a good racetrack.
Katie Charlwood
Loved his horses.
Jay McLaughlin
He loved his horses. He got so deep into debt that his medical practice basically became a side hustle to, like, fund his racing addiction.
Katie Charlwood
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable combination to me. A desperate gambler who has access to a large amount of deadly substances.
Jay McLaughlin
Yes, yes. And now William Palmer began his slow. I say slow descent. It wasn't that slow.
Katie Charlwood
It was a bit swift.
Jay McLaughlin
It was a bit swift. But his descent into crime speed can be negotiated.
Katie Charlwood
Can it? Can it be negotiated? We can.
Jay McLaughlin
We can talk about how much time means to us at a different point. But Palmer's family. So he ended up marrying a woman named Anne Thornton.
Katie Charlwood
Like the chocolates.
Jay McLaughlin
Let me just look into that quickly. Did he marry into the Thornton chocolate family? That would be a great one. I don't think so.
Katie Charlwood
No. I don't think so.
Jay McLaughlin
But no, Anne Thornton. And she had money, which it turned out, was really convenient because, well, Palmer
Katie Charlwood
gambled all his own money away.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, correct. So now, Anne conveniently died in 1854, which was only a few months after Palmer took out a life insurance policy on her.
Katie Charlwood
My, what a tragic and totally unforeseeable event.
Jay McLaughlin
Honestly, the 1800s were wild. Like, if your husband took out a life insurance policy on you, you bet I'd have started running, because that's basically a death sentence to you.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, yeah, it's not a super fun time to be living in. In fairness.
Jay McLaughlin
Victorian England. Victorian. Generally Victorian.
Katie Charlwood
Generally Victorian England. I mean, everything's out to kill you, your wallpaper, your husband.
Jay McLaughlin
We went in two very different directions. But, yes, the husband, but she. She died. But she. Honestly, in this situation, wasn't the only suspicious death. They had four children together and all of them died young, some of whom were infants at the time of their deaths. Now, obviously, the mortality rate was higher, but all of them.
Katie Charlwood
All of them. I'm sorry, all of them.
Jay McLaughlin
Every last one. But this was Victorian England. Like I said, people were like, oh, dear, what tragic luck. Another infant mortality.
Katie Charlwood
Tragic luck or highly suspect coincidence?
Jay McLaughlin
See, we have the privilege of looking at this from a 21st century perspective, but actually, do you know, oh, historian, what the child mortality rate was in Victorian England?
Katie Charlwood
So this is what, mid-1800s, which would mean about 15 to 20% of children died before the age of one and about 25 to 30% didn't make it to age five.
Jay McLaughlin
That is a large number. That's actually insane. But these crimes, though, the the, the deaths of his wife and his four children, they were not what exposed him. What exposed his crimes to the world or, well, to England at the time, was the murder of his so called best friend, John Parsons Cook.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, his bestie? Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
He murdered his bestie.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
So they were gambling buddies. I mean, yeah, he spent most of his time in a doctor's office or at the racetrack. So it's really either a nurse, a doctor or a gambler.
Katie Charlwood
I mean, yeah, that's his social circle.
Jay McLaughlin
Maybe a jockey if he's lucky enough, but that's, that's who he hung out with. But in 1855, John Cook won an absolutely massive payout at the time of
Katie Charlwood
3,000 pounds, which today in today's money would be nearly half a million pounds. Oh, I bet his absolute best pal, Budio friend Palmer was so happy for him.
Jay McLaughlin
Oh, absolutely. In fact, he was so delighted for him that he immediately started poisoning him.
Katie Charlwood
So thoughtful.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. So half a million. Can we just take a minute? Half a million pounds on a horse. I don't know what he bet to win 3,000, but you know, it wasn't.
Katie Charlwood
It depends on the odds.
Jay McLaughlin
That's what I mean. The odds of like, we don't know what. He won £3,000, which at the time was a large amount of money.
Katie Charlwood
But I mean, I'm sorry, £3,000 now is the ultimate money. I wouldn't mind winning £3,000.
Jay McLaughlin
Neither would I. But when it's the equivalent of half a million on a horse that won a race because it ran fast.
Katie Charlwood
I mean, they go fast though.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. We won't get into the ethics of horse riding here.
Katie Charlwood
Horse riding, I don't like it.
Jay McLaughlin
I mean, I'm not saying I would have gone, oh, yeah, shit, I better poison this guy for his half a million. But I would have been probably like, hey, bestie, you got like some spare change?
Katie Charlwood
Yeah, sharing is caring, friends.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, just not poisoning. Anyway, the two of them start were staying in a place called Shrewsbury. Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury. And they were celebrating Cook's big win. But suddenly, coincidentally, Cook started to feel
Katie Charlwood
extremely ill. And let me guess, Palmer, being a trained doctor and all, was very eager to help.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, he was such a helpful friend, William. So Palmer, he ended up taking it upon himself to, quote, unquote, treat Cook's stomach issues that he was having. And by treat I mean he was definitely dosing him up with strychnine. Before dying, Cook actually began to scream, I am poisoned.
Katie Charlwood
Well, that should be case closed.
Jay McLaughlin
Really? That should be it shouldn't it The. The dying man screaming, I am poisoned. And the only person with him being a doctor with access to poison.
Katie Charlwood
One would think it's a very open and shut case.
Jay McLaughlin
Anyway, imagine your murder victim loudly announcing that they've been poisoned to the world, to the room. And you think, I can definitely walk away from this.
Katie Charlwood
This is not exactly criminal mastermind behavior.
Jay McLaughlin
Well, you've heard us mentioned it a couple of times now. And since this is a poison podcast. Strychnine. Katie, what do you know about this poison?
Katie Charlwood
Do I know about poison? Let me get my big book of poisons.
Jay McLaughlin
Tada. What is strychnine? What does it do?
Katie Charlwood
Strychnine? It was an over the counter. Like, you can get it over the counter.
Jay McLaughlin
Oh, like painkillers. Okay. What does it do, though? Apparently it killed him.
Katie Charlwood
I mean. Yes, it did. Come on. Listen, you're getting a backstory, okay?
Jay McLaughlin
Oh, the full backstory.
Katie Charlwood
You're getting the full backstory.
Jay McLaughlin
Please give it to me.
Katie Charlwood
You will, you will. It had been used, like, quite a lot. It was in tonics, it was used as, like, appetite suppressants, all these. All these things. However, it was mainly used as a poison to kill animals.
Jay McLaughlin
Okay, so like rats.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah, yeah, but it gets better. But then sort of in the Victorian era, it became. How would I put this gently? A performance enhancing drug because it had effects like coffee. So they thought it would be like, I'm so. It makes you go fast.
Jay McLaughlin
I'm so. Oh, we went with two different performance enhancing drugs there. I meant like Viagra. Viagra. I thought they were dosing it to have better sex. I thought that's what you were. Oh, my God. I was like, it kills animals. Let's give it to men to have a better sex life. Jesus.
Katie Charlwood
I'm so sorry.
Jay McLaughlin
I should have.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, my God.
Jay McLaughlin
You really should have horrified the performance enhancing.
Katie Charlwood
Sorry, that's my fault.
Jay McLaughlin
It's also the way you looked at me, like, wiggling the eyebrows. Performance enhancing drug. I'm like, what am I supposed to think?
Katie Charlwood
It's only because I don't have Botox right now and I can actually move them.
Jay McLaughlin
Botox, Another fun poison.
Katie Charlwood
Which we will be covering at some point, too. Strychnine affects a person's ability to control movement. And what this does is it binds one of the two neurotransmitters that send messages between the nerve cells. One of these neurotransmitters tells a nerve to fire, another one tells it to stop. So it's like, stop, go, stop, go. Yeah. So how do I put this, you've got glycine and acetylcholine. Basically, strychnine attaches to receptors and therefore blocks the signals for the nerve to stop. What this means is that this forces the continuation of a nerve's movement, which is increased by the slightest stimulus.
Jay McLaughlin
So you're telling me that. Are we talking like their muscles?
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
So they contract.
Katie Charlwood
Yes, the muscles contract and they keep contracting. They also twitch. They have convulsions. The way that it attacks the central nervous system is the muscles all contract simultaneously. So you're talking legs, arms, back, neck, face. It causes the back to arch unnaturally. You sort of end up like a letter, like an upside down U. You know what I mean? So you're tensed up, your body is tensing, your facial muscles sort of go into a smile like the Joker.
Jay McLaughlin
That's what it's just interesting because that's similar to tetanus. Tetanus causes the same thing. It's lockjaw that makes your. Makes your smile like the Joker.
Katie Charlwood
And so it just causes everything. So it looks like you're smiling when really it's just all of your muscles tightening and you are awake through all of this. And what this does is this causes. It basically causes suffocation because of the way that your muscles contract. It puts pressure on the lungs and. Yeah, and it affects the person's ability to breathe. And because it also stimulates the brain, remember, it's a performance enhancer. It gives a heightened sense of perception.
Jay McLaughlin
So not only are you suffering from your muscles contracting and not relaxing, and you're. You're in pain from that. You're hyper aware.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah. So you're very much aware of everything that is happening to you. And your body is spasming, frozen with your eyes wide open. And it is believed this is like one of the most antagonizing deaths. I mean, it certainly sounds it cure treatment, kind of. If you know that you have consumed strychnine but you haven't had any symptoms yet, you can like flush the stomach. Right. And you can sort of maybe be okay once the symptoms do appear, However, I mean, if you give muscle relaxants, tranquilizers, and rest in a dark, quiet room without stimuli and the symptoms is kept under control.
Jay McLaughlin
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Jay McLaughlin
Yeah.
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Jay McLaughlin
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Katie Charlwood
poison can pass through the body within 24 hours.
Jay McLaughlin
Like they were talking 1850s here. But even today, there's no actual cure. Unless you are 100% sure that you ingested strychnine and you go before you have symptoms.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah, effectively. I mean, you can kind of maybe keep it under control if they like super quickly get you with like muscle relaxants, tranquilizers and the thing.
Jay McLaughlin
But it's a maybe.
Katie Charlwood
It's a maybe.
Jay McLaughlin
So there's no real antidote to this?
Katie Charlwood
There is.
Jay McLaughlin
No. Not only did he kill people with this poison, he. He chose something that is. And he would have understood this as well as a doctor. He would have understood that it is agonizing.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
That this is a horrifying. It's not just you go to sleep and you die.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah. Not like, you know, an overdose of ether. Right. Not just something that will just.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. He wasn't suffocating them.
Katie Charlwood
Right.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. In my opinion, it's not like. Yes, he did this for his, you know, gambling addiction. Clearly he wanted the money so he could gamble more but he clearly didn't care if his victim suffered.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
Like, that's the thing, is that he. He wasn't just poisoning for money, was he?
Katie Charlwood
No, he must have had something to do with it because he had other options.
Jay McLaughlin
Oh, yeah, he was a doctor.
Katie Charlwood
Doctor.
Jay McLaughlin
He had access to pharmacies with all levels of what he could have poisoned
Katie Charlwood
people with so many. So it's the Victorian arsenics everywhere. What are you talking about?
Jay McLaughlin
But he chose one of the most that he would have understood. One of the most painful poisons. He could have given his wife, his children and his then friend.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
Plus the other people that he. There were other children that he had, like illegitimate children.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
And other people that he was around that he also allegedly poisoned. Allegedly poisoned. There's also evidence to suggest that the. One of the. One of the babies that he. Now, this is horrible, but one of the babies that he poisoned was seen to have had some sort of seizure. That's how they described what was happening, the convulsions, which, from what you've described with strychnine, is likely what he'd used at the time as well. So strychnine was his poison of choice.
Katie Charlwood
I know. So to kill a baby with strychnine,
Jay McLaughlin
to kill anyone but a baby with strychnine, like, from what you've just explained, it is beyond excruciating. I can't even imagine that.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
And to have the performance enhancer on top of that, so your brain is not even aware, it's hyper aware as you. As you pass away. This man clearly was not just in this for the gambling. No, he was clearly in this for some level of. He enjoyed it. Palmer at this point starts to spiral. The authorities are like, you know, this is. This is suspicious. We should start investigating what, you know, a man screaming as he convulses to death, I am poisoned. Would generally make you think maybe I should open an investigation. But, Palmer, immediately. This is when I'm talking about Bull in the china shop earlier. He immediately makes this situation worse. Like he has a talent for that.
Katie Charlwood
What? What, what, what did he do?
Jay McLaughlin
So the first thing he did, because there's multiple things to this, the first thing he did is he tried to bribe Cook's betting agent to hand over Cook's winnings.
Katie Charlwood
I'm sorry, he tried to bribe a bookie?
Jay McLaughlin
Yes.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, that's a smooth operation.
Jay McLaughlin
The bookie of a man who had just won 3,000 pounds that day, or the day before and. And had died. I mean, authorities ended up exhuming Cook's body because they had already buried him.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
Now, an interesting thing about that as well is they exhumed him to the hotel room. Like they took him back.
Katie Charlwood
Yes.
Jay McLaughlin
To a hotel room and did the autopsy there. And when they were examining Cook for the second time.
Katie Charlwood
Yes.
Jay McLaughlin
Palmer went marching straight up to the corner and he said, are you going to open his stomach?
Katie Charlwood
No, it's not suspicious at all.
Jay McLaughlin
What?
Katie Charlwood
I'm sorry, Captain Obvious just strikes again.
Jay McLaughlin
I mean, you basically may as well point and say, I put it there. It's like walking into a police station and saying, just out of curiosity, how long does it take to test a murder weapon for fingerprints?
Katie Charlwood
Asking for a friend, but. Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry. He. Wait, he goes to his bookie.
Jay McLaughlin
Yes.
Katie Charlwood
So he goes to his bookie.
Jay McLaughlin
Yes.
Katie Charlwood
He's like, oh, give me the weddings. He goes to the bookie.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah.
Katie Charlwood
To try and bribe a bookie. Right.
Jay McLaughlin
Already a bad idea.
Katie Charlwood
Already a bad idea. You know, it feels like if he had just waited a day, you know, he could have gone with Cook. He could have already just waited nearby. He could have waited for Cook to get his money and then poison him
Jay McLaughlin
and then take the money.
Katie Charlwood
I feel like I shouldn't be here giving criminals advice or suggestions, but I
Jay McLaughlin
feel like that's common sense. The sense with William Palmer was not that common.
Katie Charlwood
I. I know, I know. It was definitely, I mean, uncommon, abnormal, Abby. Normal, some might even say. And listen, if I can get a young Frankenstein joke in here, I'm doing it.
Jay McLaughlin
I don't encourage this behavior.
Katie Charlwood
You don't encourage this behavior.
Jay McLaughlin
But no, this man didn't only murder the person who had just. His so called friend who had just won 3,000 pounds. He didn't even wait, like you said, till the money had been collected. And then, like, I'm not a gambler. I've never really been in a bookies. But they don't seem like the kind of people that you can just bribe.
Katie Charlwood
I don't. I've been to a bookies.
Jay McLaughlin
Do they seem like the people that you can just bribe to give over something? Do you think even in 1854 Victorian England, those people were like, yeah, just take the money.
Katie Charlwood
No, no, no.
Jay McLaughlin
Those people didn't want to hand over the money in the first place.
Katie Charlwood
So now you think they want to hand over the money to you?
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, to the person who's not. And then they would have done some investigating or maybe even heard at that point he's travel fast through the grapevine in the Victorian England.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
That a man in that town had now died after winning £3,000 and there was only one person with him.
Katie Charlwood
I mean, some mate put two and two together.
Jay McLaughlin
Well, they did. And the trial ended up being absolutely huge.
Katie Charlwood
Like James and the giant peach.
Jay McLaughlin
That's a very random way to put this trial, but sure, people were obsessed with this case, like James was with the peach.
Katie Charlwood
Absolutely matte.
Jay McLaughlin
For reference, Katie just hit her hand off a dresser. Off a side table.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah. It is like 100 years old, though.
Jay McLaughlin
Off a hundred year old, that antique. Off an antique.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
Katie just hit handmaiden.
Katie Charlwood
I'm sorry.
Jay McLaughlin
People were obsessed with this case. It was the Victorian equivalent of a true crime documentary dropping on Netflix.
Katie Charlwood
One of the good ones.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, the good ones. Like, you know, making a murderer. Making murderer is good. I love that. I said, like, you know, and then struggle to name a true crime documentary.
Katie Charlwood
You know, a really good crime documentary, and then you just couldn't remember anything.
Jay McLaughlin
Don't fuck with cats.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, I haven't watched that one because I don't want to watch cats get hurt.
Jay McLaughlin
That was the hard part of episode one, because
Katie Charlwood
that was the hard part of the very beginning of this documentary.
Jay McLaughlin
It's three episodes. If you can get through Luca Magnotta killing cats in three different ways, then you can get through. And they don't know, to be fair. They don't show. They don't show. They show the start of the video where they are very much alive and then they don't show anything else on. On the documentary.
Katie Charlwood
I love that. I'm like, oh, don't show me the dead animals, though.
Jay McLaughlin
No, yeah. Like, I love that. We're like. He then went on to kill a man and record it and put it online with an ice pick by the well, with a screwdriver that he painted like an ice pick.
Katie Charlwood
I was. What a choice.
Jay McLaughlin
There's reasons behind it. You have to watch it, too.
Katie Charlwood
Okay.
Jay McLaughlin
Anyway, my point is, there's. This trial was a big deal at the time. Was like, people were flocking to this.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
So, yeah. But the jury ended up taking only 70 minutes to find Palmer guilty.
Katie Charlwood
That's about as fast as a polite cough before saying guilty.
Jay McLaughlin
Did they just go into the room and go, what do you guys think?
Katie Charlwood
You know, basically, that's as long as it took them to fill out the paperwork and get everything stamped.
Jay McLaughlin
I know. Honestly, 70 minutes, an hour and 10 minutes.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
And they came back out and said guilty.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah. They wanted to make it look like they were doing something. They probably Went in and played a game of chess.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, they probably had a whole tournament in there.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
In the time that it took. But it was pretty obvious. I mean, the man did not help his case. And I'm glad he didn't, but he did not help his case. He was the most obvious poisoner in the world.
Katie Charlwood
I mean, he's just like, oh, did you check his stomach's for poison, by the way?
Jay McLaughlin
He was like, oh, can I have his money?
Katie Charlwood
Yeah, yeah, can I have his money? And by the way, you didn't check his stomach for poisoning.
Jay McLaughlin
Are you gonna. Are you gonna check it, though?
Katie Charlwood
Is that the other one?
Jay McLaughlin
Like, I'm glad he was an idiot, but, you know, you know, he got arrested.
Katie Charlwood
I would appreciate criminals continuing to be idiots.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah, so would I. But he was sentenced to hang, which was still obviously very big public entertainment at the time. And on June 14, 1856, outside of Stafford Prison, in front of a crowd of 30,000 onlookers.
Katie Charlwood
Right, now, that's even a lot for Victorian times.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. See, the Victorians loved a good public execution.
Katie Charlwood
That.
Jay McLaughlin
That we know.
Katie Charlwood
Dead, though.
Jay McLaughlin
But this was unprecedented even for the prison. He was extremely hated, for good reason, of course, but he was extremely loathed.
Katie Charlwood
That is wild, right? That's like stadium concert turnout level crowds,
Jay McLaughlin
honestly, for anyone in Ireland, that's quite, you know, half of Croak park turning up to watch someone get hanged.
Katie Charlwood
Yeah.
Jay McLaughlin
But this man. This man, like, obviously, in the two years from when he killed John Parsons Cook. Yeah. It all came out like he killed his children, he killed his wife. Yeah, all this came out. And the children were honestly the driving factor to the hate. Like the real hate. Yeah, like. And so for his final act, because he had to go out with a bang.
Katie Charlwood
Oh. Because they always have to, don't they?
Jay McLaughlin
They have to get their final words or something. But anyway, he stood on the gallows, looked out on the crowd and he was asked, did he have any final words? And he says, this one does. I am innocent. Sure, Jan. Yeah. He's so innocent. So the jury, 30,000 onlookers in the rope said otherwise.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, that's nice.
Jay McLaughlin
Yeah. Yeah, I thought about myself. So, Katie, what do you think?
Katie Charlwood
What do you.
Jay McLaughlin
What have we learned today?
Katie Charlwood
Oh, that if your doctor is really invested in your life insurance policy, you should run that.
Jay McLaughlin
Gambling debts and medical degrees are not a fantastic mix to have.
Katie Charlwood
Oh, and if your murder victim literally starts shouting, I am poisoned, you should probably start packing your bags.
Jay McLaughlin
Wise words indeed. Katie, thanks for listening to Day in
Katie Charlwood
Nightshed and we will see you next time. Stay safe, stay sceptical and if your doctor starts recommending you life insurance, maybe find a new doctor quickly if you've
Jay McLaughlin
made it to the end of this podcast. Thank you so much for listening today in Nightshade. Thank you. Please like it?
Katie Charlwood
I guess rate and review five stars if that's an option. If you don't want to give us five stars, you can just not do anything at all because we like the compliments.
Jay McLaughlin
We would appreciate compliments. That would be great.
Katie Charlwood
That would be great. So don't forget to like share. And of course subscribe so you can find out another tale of an infamous
Jay McLaughlin
poisoner from history, maybe one even inspired by the one we just covered. Intrigue.
Katie Charlwood
You've been listening to Day and Nightshade episodes written by Jay McLaughlin and Katie Charlwood.
Jay McLaughlin
Theme music by Zachary Logan and Micah
Katie Charlwood
Silvanis Podcast artwork by Anna Farba.
Jay McLaughlin
Thank you for listening.
Katie Charlwood
And remember, a is for arsenic
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Host: Katie Charlwood
Guest/Co-host: Jay McLaughlin
Date: May 26, 2026
In this inaugural episode of the “Day and Nightshade” podcast (presented in collaboration with “Who Did What Now”), history buffs Katie Charlwood and Jay McLaughlin dive into the notorious case of William Palmer, a Victorian-era doctor, serial poisoner, and gambling addict. With their trademark dark humor and sharp banter, the hosts explore Palmer’s background, infamous crimes, the science of his poison of choice (strychnine), and his eventual downfall. They balance historical detail with accessible, occasionally irreverent commentary, making for an engaging and informative true crime deep-dive.
The hosts wield dark, cheeky humor and pop culture references (from Young Frankenstein to Netflix true crime), blending educational content about Victorian crime with conversational asides, personal “shocked gasp” moments, and mutual ribbing.