William Palmer - Day and Nightshade

Summary

Podcast Summary: Who Did What Now – “William Palmer: Day and Nightshade”

Host: Katie Charlwood
Guest/Co-host: Jay McLaughlin
Date: May 26, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this inaugural episode of the “Day and Nightshade” podcast (presented in collaboration with “Who Did What Now”), history buffs Katie Charlwood and Jay McLaughlin dive into the notorious case of William Palmer, a Victorian-era doctor, serial poisoner, and gambling addict. With their trademark dark humor and sharp banter, the hosts explore Palmer’s background, infamous crimes, the science of his poison of choice (strychnine), and his eventual downfall. They balance historical detail with accessible, occasionally irreverent commentary, making for an engaging and informative true crime deep-dive.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Podcast Premise (02:24–03:39)

• New Series: “Day and Nightshade” promises to examine history’s infamous poisoners with plenty of research and a dash of irreverence.
• Hosts’ Chemistry: Jay and Katie joke about their long-distance friendship and mutual ADHD as part of the reason for doing the podcast.
  • “It’s the only way that we can force each other to spend time with each other ... we keep forgetting to communicate.” — Katie (03:01)

---

2. William Palmer’s Background (05:48–08:28)

• Early Life: Born 1824 in Rugeley, Staffordshire, England to a wealthy family with eight children.
• Family Wealth: Palmer’s father, a sawyer, died young, leaving the family a substantial inheritance (~£6 million in today’s money).
  • “He falls into roses and comes out smelling of shit.” — Katie, about Palmer’s ability to ruin good fortune (06:34)
• Medical Training: Palmer studies medicine, becoming a doctor—initially appearing respectable.

---

3. Palmer’s Vices and Start of His Crimes (08:28–10:46)

• Gambling Addiction: Palmer develops an intense passion for racing and betting, resulting in mounting debts.
  • “His medical practice basically became a side hustle to, like, fund his racing addiction.” — Jay (08:37)
• Convenient Marriages and Deaths: Marries Anne Thornton for her wealth; she dies soon after a life insurance policy is taken out. All four of his children die young—suspicious, but not abnormal in the high-mortality context of Victorian England.

---

4. The Murder of John Parsons Cook (11:31–14:14)

• Victim: Palmer’s friend and gambling companion, Cook, wins £3,000 (~£500,000 today).
• Motive: Palmer poisons Cook with strychnine, motivated by jealousy and greed.
• Suspicious Circumstances: Cook dies after exclaiming “I am poisoned!”—with Palmer as the only medical professional in the room.
  • “That should be case closed.” — Katie, on Cook’s dying revelation (13:48)
• Obviousness of Crime: Hosts repeatedly mock Palmer’s lack of subtlety, calling him “Captain Obvious.”

---

5. Science of Strychnine Poisons (14:14–21:30)

• History and Use: Strychnine was widely available over the counter in the 19th century, used for everything from rat poison to “performance enhancement.”
  • (Comedic confusion: Jay assumes "performance-enhancing drug" refers to sexual enhancement, Katie clarifies it boosts alertness like caffeine.)
• Mechanism: Strychnine blocks neurotransmitters that suppress muscle contraction, resulting in violent, uncontrollable spasms and a terrifying, fully conscious death.
  • “Your body is spasming, frozen with your eyes wide open... it's believed this is one of the most antagonizing deaths.” — Katie (17:35)
• No Real Antidote: Survival is rare once symptoms set in—muscle relaxants may help, but there is no true cure.

---

6. Palmer's Downfall and Trial (23:37–30:17)

• Cover-Up Failures:
  • Palmer bribes Cook’s bookie for the winnings immediately after Cook’s death—an unwise move.
  • Interferes conspicuously during Cook’s autopsy, asking, “Are you going to open his stomach?” (24:24)
    • “You basically may as well point and say, ‘I put it there!’” — Jay (24:38)
• Public Investigation and Trial:
  • Massive public and press attention; the case grips Victorian England.
  • The trial is likened to a modern true crime Netflix docuseries.
  • Jury delivers a guilty verdict in just 70 minutes—hosts marvel at the speed: “That’s as long as it took them to fill out the paperwork.” — Katie (28:44)

---

7. Execution and Legacy (29:28–30:59)

• Execution: Palmer is hanged outside Stafford Prison in front of a 30,000-strong crowd.
  • “That’s like stadium concert turnout level crowds.” — Katie (30:03)
• Palmer’s Final Words: He declares, “I am innocent,” to no avail.
  • “The jury, 30,000 onlookers, and the rope said otherwise.” — Jay (30:59)
• Historical Infamy: Palmer’s callous crimes, especially against children, cement his notoriety.

---

8. Closing Thoughts & Morals (31:00–31:23)

• Lessons:
  • If your doctor is invested in your life insurance, run.
  • Gambling debts and access to poison are a deadly combination.
  • If your murder victim screams “I am poisoned!”—don’t stick around.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Palmer’s Incompetence:
  • “For someone called the Prince of Poisoners, he had all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop.” — Katie (04:54)
• On Strychnine’s Effects:
  • “It looks like you’re smiling when really it’s just all of your muscles tightening, and you are awake through all of this.” — Katie (17:26)
• On Palmer’s Outrageous Behavior:
  • “It’s like walking into a police station and saying, ‘Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to test a murder weapon for fingerprints?’” — Jay (24:38)
• Final Words of Palmer:
  • “He stood on the gallows ... ‘I am innocent.’ Sure, Jan. Yeah. He’s so innocent.” — Jay & Katie (30:39)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Podcast Premise: 02:24–03:39
• Palmer’s Early Life: 05:48–08:28
• Marriages, Deaths, and Gambling: 08:28–10:46
• Murder of John Parsons Cook: 11:31–14:14
• Strychnine Science & Discussion: 14:14–21:30
• Downfall & Trial: 23:37–30:17
• Execution & Legacy: 29:28–30:59
• Closing Lessons: 31:00–31:23

---

Tone & Style

The hosts wield dark, cheeky humor and pop culture references (from Young Frankenstein to Netflix true crime), blending educational content about Victorian crime with conversational asides, personal “shocked gasp” moments, and mutual ribbing.

---

For those who missed the episode, “Day and Nightshade” offers a lively, well-researched retelling of the William Palmer case—highlighting not just the historical facts but the enduring, sometimes absurd human elements of poison murder and criminal incompetence.

Transcript

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings by $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with progr between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary Summer Smells like

[Pura Fragrance Announcer]

summer road trips, ocean breezes and long evenings under the stars, it's a feeling you want to hold onto. Restore your sense of place with Pura's new summer fragrance collection. We've captured the magic of the season in clean premium scents that transform your home into your favorite destination. Discover the art of scentscaping and bring the summer in. Visit pur.com to explore the Colle

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

apro vecha los ahoros de Memorial Day in Los y compra los vasicos parelo gar pormenos ahoro centadolares en la parrilla agas de cuatro que madores char broil Performance Series.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Wait, are are two people a group.

[Katie Charlwood]

Foreign?

[Jay McLaughlin]

You're listening to Day and Nightshade. Before we begin our dive into the world of all things poison, a quick note. This podcast discusses real life cases involving poisoning, violence and death, which some listeners may find upsetting. Please listen at your own risk. This episode includes references to infant and child death. Take care while listening and enjoy the episode.

[Katie Charlwood]

Hey Hi. Hello.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Welcome to Day and Nightshade, the podcast where history's most infamous poisoners meet their match. And by match, I mean, well, us, armed with, quite frankly, unhealthy amount of research. I'm Jay. I'm one of your guides for this episode through the murky world of Victorian England and the somewhat stupid poisoner, Mr. William Palmer.

[Katie Charlwood]

And I'm Katie, here to provide some scientific insight, a brain full of random facts and the occasional shocked gasp. So this is the very first episode of what we hope will be a very long running podcast, Day and Nightshade.

[Jay McLaughlin]

We both don't want it to end. Really.

[Katie Charlwood]

No. It's the only way that we can force each other to spend time with each other because we have ADHD and we keep forgetting to communicate.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But also, I live in a Different country. And like I said, I'm Jay. I live in Germany.

[Katie Charlwood]

Near the Black Forest.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Near the Black Forest, which is a cool place to talk about poisons and mushrooms, but it means that we can't see each other in person all that often. And so this podcast is a way to keep our friendship alive.

[Katie Charlwood]

That's basically what we're doing it for. So you need to listen to it, otherwise you're gonna ruin our friendship.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It's gonna be your fault.

[Katie Charlwood]

It will be your fault.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's a great way to introduce people to this. With a threat. No, we've been friends for almost 10 years.

[Katie Charlwood]

Almost.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Regardless of me being in Germany or not. And, yeah, we both have a fascination for true crime, and very specifically for poisons and Poisonaires. You might know Katie.

[Katie Charlwood]

You might know me from my globally charged, topping podcast.

[Jay McLaughlin]

You might know me from podcast. Yeah. You're so famous. I'm.

[Katie Charlwood]

No, I actually have a sweatshirt that says nobody. Nobody cares if you're Internet famous.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I definitely don't care. I knew you before the fame.

[Katie Charlwood]

That's true. That's true.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It poisoned you. You see what I did there?

[Katie Charlwood]

See what I did? I like that.

[Jay McLaughlin]

No, Katie's podcast is awesome. It's who did what now? Pod, if you want to listen to it.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah, and I think I'm probably gonna, as a. You may be listening to this episode as a preliminary drop on my podcast channel, just. Just so that you know where you're gonna be going.

[Jay McLaughlin]

We will be doing the things.

[Katie Charlwood]

We will be doing things. So make sure to share care and listen to Day and Nightshade.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Thank you. Today, as I said, we're going to be talking about William Palmer, Dr. Gambler, murderer, a man who you'd think would be good at those three things. But no. No. He was shockingly terrible at every single one of them and extremely bad at hiding his crimes.

[Katie Charlwood]

For someone called the Prince of Poisoners, he had all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Honestly, if poisoners had a ranking scale, he'd be somewhere between Captain Obvious and practically waving a giant red flag.

[Katie Charlwood]

And yet, somehow, he still managed to murder at least 14 people. Allegedly.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Allegedly. We can't. It's been a long time. But it's alleged. We don't know. Important word there. Allegedly. Because if he's listening from the afterlife, I'd like to say William, but we know you did it. It's pretty damn obvious, and the jury

[Katie Charlwood]

certainly thought so as well.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So, anyway, let's get back to where it all began, shall we?

[Katie Charlwood]

I Was about to make an entropy joke like harp playing.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I went with lesbian purring.

[Katie Charlwood]

For some reason. I don't.

[Jay McLaughlin]

No. Anyway, picture the scene. Picture the scene, Katie. In your mind's eye.

[Katie Charlwood]

I'm picturing Roxley.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Staffordshire, England. The year 1824. A child is born. No, not into poverty, but into a wealthy family with eight kids.

[Katie Charlwood]

No.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes.

[Katie Charlwood]

No.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes. No. Yes. Two parents, Sarah and Joseph Palmer.

[Katie Charlwood]

And.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Eight kids.

[Katie Charlwood]

Eight kids. Eight, yes. Little fresh humans. And they had money. The thing that. Wait. The thing that usually helps people, like not become criminals. You. You.

[Jay McLaughlin]

You think that. You'd think that it would, but no. See, Mr. Palmer had a gift. He could take a perfectly fine situation and completely ruin it. Destroy it. Goodbye, calm. Hello, William Palmer.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean that is a little bit relatable in fairness. He falls into roses and comes out smelling a shit. Seems to be a bit.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Seems belialife. But the thing is that, dear William, that I didn't murder people. So as much as I can relate slightly, I don't relate to that yet legally.

[Katie Charlwood]

That was a joke. That was a joke.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That was a joke. It's one of those joke things that I sometimes do. So his father.

[Katie Charlwood]

His father.

[Jay McLaughlin]

His father was a Sawyer.

[Katie Charlwood]

Do you know, you say he was a Sawyer?

[Jay McLaughlin]

He was a. He was a Sawyer.

[Katie Charlwood]

You say so.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I know so.

[Katie Charlwood]

You say so.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I saw so.

[Katie Charlwood]

You saw. So he was a Sawyer?

[Jay McLaughlin]

I saw so. He was a Sawyer. This makes no sense.

[Katie Charlwood]

So a Sawyer, for those of you who don't know, is a person who works in a sawmill.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Nice little tidbit of info there. Thank you.

[Katie Charlwood]

Can I also like interject with a wee question?

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, sure.

[Katie Charlwood]

His father was a Sawyer and they were rich.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. I mean, the likelihood is he owned the sawmill or at least had some level of stakes in it. But Joseph Palmer, his father actually died when William was 12 and left the family with a £70,000 inheritance.

[Katie Charlwood]

70. £70,000.

[Jay McLaughlin]

£70,000 then.

[Katie Charlwood]

Okay, so that would be. I'm sorry, over £6 million today. Okay, I'm sorry. Color me suspicious.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, I think. I think that the life insurance that he managed to take out as a Sawyer for £70,000. 6 million. We're gonna say 6 million because that's what we can understand. Is that that much money? Yeah, he took out life insurance for 6 million and they somehow managed to make that happened. But anyway, back to William. So William ended up going to study medicine. He became a doctor. And like for a while there, everything in his life was calm. Everything seemed fine. But you see, William had a fatal Flaw.

[Katie Charlwood]

Strict night.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I mean. Yeah, but what I'm talking here, though, is gambling specifically. The man adored a good racetrack.

[Katie Charlwood]

Loved his horses.

[Jay McLaughlin]

He loved his horses. He got so deep into debt that his medical practice basically became a side hustle to, like, fund his racing addiction.

[Katie Charlwood]

That sounds like a perfectly reasonable combination to me. A desperate gambler who has access to a large amount of deadly substances.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes, yes. And now William Palmer began his slow. I say slow descent. It wasn't that slow.

[Katie Charlwood]

It was a bit swift.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It was a bit swift. But his descent into crime speed can be negotiated.

[Katie Charlwood]

Can it? Can it be negotiated? We can.

[Jay McLaughlin]

We can talk about how much time means to us at a different point. But Palmer's family. So he ended up marrying a woman named Anne Thornton.

[Katie Charlwood]

Like the chocolates.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Let me just look into that quickly. Did he marry into the Thornton chocolate family? That would be a great one. I don't think so.

[Katie Charlwood]

No. I don't think so.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But no, Anne Thornton. And she had money, which it turned out, was really convenient because, well, Palmer

[Katie Charlwood]

gambled all his own money away.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, correct. So now, Anne conveniently died in 1854, which was only a few months after Palmer took out a life insurance policy on her.

[Katie Charlwood]

My, what a tragic and totally unforeseeable event.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Honestly, the 1800s were wild. Like, if your husband took out a life insurance policy on you, you bet I'd have started running, because that's basically a death sentence to you.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, yeah, it's not a super fun time to be living in. In fairness.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Victorian England. Victorian. Generally Victorian.

[Katie Charlwood]

Generally Victorian England. I mean, everything's out to kill you, your wallpaper, your husband.

[Jay McLaughlin]

We went in two very different directions. But, yes, the husband, but she. She died. But she. Honestly, in this situation, wasn't the only suspicious death. They had four children together and all of them died young, some of whom were infants at the time of their deaths. Now, obviously, the mortality rate was higher, but all of them.

[Katie Charlwood]

All of them. I'm sorry, all of them.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Every last one. But this was Victorian England. Like I said, people were like, oh, dear, what tragic luck. Another infant mortality.

[Katie Charlwood]

Tragic luck or highly suspect coincidence?

[Jay McLaughlin]

See, we have the privilege of looking at this from a 21st century perspective, but actually, do you know, oh, historian, what the child mortality rate was in Victorian England?

[Katie Charlwood]

So this is what, mid-1800s, which would mean about 15 to 20% of children died before the age of one and about 25 to 30% didn't make it to age five.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That is a large number. That's actually insane. But these crimes, though, the the, the deaths of his wife and his four children, they were not what exposed him. What exposed his crimes to the world or, well, to England at the time, was the murder of his so called best friend, John Parsons Cook.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, his bestie? Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

He murdered his bestie.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So they were gambling buddies. I mean, yeah, he spent most of his time in a doctor's office or at the racetrack. So it's really either a nurse, a doctor or a gambler.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean, yeah, that's his social circle.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Maybe a jockey if he's lucky enough, but that's, that's who he hung out with. But in 1855, John Cook won an absolutely massive payout at the time of

[Katie Charlwood]

3,000 pounds, which today in today's money would be nearly half a million pounds. Oh, I bet his absolute best pal, Budio friend Palmer was so happy for him.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Oh, absolutely. In fact, he was so delighted for him that he immediately started poisoning him.

[Katie Charlwood]

So thoughtful.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. So half a million. Can we just take a minute? Half a million pounds on a horse. I don't know what he bet to win 3,000, but you know, it wasn't.

[Katie Charlwood]

It depends on the odds.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's what I mean. The odds of like, we don't know what. He won £3,000, which at the time was a large amount of money.

[Katie Charlwood]

But I mean, I'm sorry, £3,000 now is the ultimate money. I wouldn't mind winning £3,000.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Neither would I. But when it's the equivalent of half a million on a horse that won a race because it ran fast.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean, they go fast though.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. We won't get into the ethics of horse riding here.

[Katie Charlwood]

Horse riding, I don't like it.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I mean, I'm not saying I would have gone, oh, yeah, shit, I better poison this guy for his half a million. But I would have been probably like, hey, bestie, you got like some spare change?

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah, sharing is caring, friends.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, just not poisoning. Anyway, the two of them start were staying in a place called Shrewsbury. Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury. And they were celebrating Cook's big win. But suddenly, coincidentally, Cook started to feel

[Katie Charlwood]

extremely ill. And let me guess, Palmer, being a trained doctor and all, was very eager to help.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, he was such a helpful friend, William. So Palmer, he ended up taking it upon himself to, quote, unquote, treat Cook's stomach issues that he was having. And by treat I mean he was definitely dosing him up with strychnine. Before dying, Cook actually began to scream, I am poisoned.

[Katie Charlwood]

Well, that should be case closed.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Really? That should be it shouldn't it The. The dying man screaming, I am poisoned. And the only person with him being a doctor with access to poison.

[Katie Charlwood]

One would think it's a very open and shut case.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Anyway, imagine your murder victim loudly announcing that they've been poisoned to the world, to the room. And you think, I can definitely walk away from this.

[Katie Charlwood]

This is not exactly criminal mastermind behavior.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Well, you've heard us mentioned it a couple of times now. And since this is a poison podcast. Strychnine. Katie, what do you know about this poison?

[Katie Charlwood]

Do I know about poison? Let me get my big book of poisons.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Tada. What is strychnine? What does it do?

[Katie Charlwood]

Strychnine? It was an over the counter. Like, you can get it over the counter.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Oh, like painkillers. Okay. What does it do, though? Apparently it killed him.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean. Yes, it did. Come on. Listen, you're getting a backstory, okay?

[Jay McLaughlin]

Oh, the full backstory.

[Katie Charlwood]

You're getting the full backstory.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Please give it to me.

[Katie Charlwood]

You will, you will. It had been used, like, quite a lot. It was in tonics, it was used as, like, appetite suppressants, all these. All these things. However, it was mainly used as a poison to kill animals.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Okay, so like rats.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah, yeah, but it gets better. But then sort of in the Victorian era, it became. How would I put this gently? A performance enhancing drug because it had effects like coffee. So they thought it would be like, I'm so. It makes you go fast.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I'm so. Oh, we went with two different performance enhancing drugs there. I meant like Viagra. Viagra. I thought they were dosing it to have better sex. I thought that's what you were. Oh, my God. I was like, it kills animals. Let's give it to men to have a better sex life. Jesus.

[Katie Charlwood]

I'm so sorry.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I should have.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, my God.

[Jay McLaughlin]

You really should have horrified the performance enhancing.

[Katie Charlwood]

Sorry, that's my fault.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It's also the way you looked at me, like, wiggling the eyebrows. Performance enhancing drug. I'm like, what am I supposed to think?

[Katie Charlwood]

It's only because I don't have Botox right now and I can actually move them.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Botox, Another fun poison.

[Katie Charlwood]

Which we will be covering at some point, too. Strychnine affects a person's ability to control movement. And what this does is it binds one of the two neurotransmitters that send messages between the nerve cells. One of these neurotransmitters tells a nerve to fire, another one tells it to stop. So it's like, stop, go, stop, go. Yeah. So how do I put this, you've got glycine and acetylcholine. Basically, strychnine attaches to receptors and therefore blocks the signals for the nerve to stop. What this means is that this forces the continuation of a nerve's movement, which is increased by the slightest stimulus.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So you're telling me that. Are we talking like their muscles?

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So they contract.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yes, the muscles contract and they keep contracting. They also twitch. They have convulsions. The way that it attacks the central nervous system is the muscles all contract simultaneously. So you're talking legs, arms, back, neck, face. It causes the back to arch unnaturally. You sort of end up like a letter, like an upside down U. You know what I mean? So you're tensed up, your body is tensing, your facial muscles sort of go into a smile like the Joker.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's what it's just interesting because that's similar to tetanus. Tetanus causes the same thing. It's lockjaw that makes your. Makes your smile like the Joker.

[Katie Charlwood]

And so it just causes everything. So it looks like you're smiling when really it's just all of your muscles tightening and you are awake through all of this. And what this does is this causes. It basically causes suffocation because of the way that your muscles contract. It puts pressure on the lungs and. Yeah, and it affects the person's ability to breathe. And because it also stimulates the brain, remember, it's a performance enhancer. It gives a heightened sense of perception.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So not only are you suffering from your muscles contracting and not relaxing, and you're. You're in pain from that. You're hyper aware.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah. So you're very much aware of everything that is happening to you. And your body is spasming, frozen with your eyes wide open. And it is believed this is like one of the most antagonizing deaths. I mean, it certainly sounds it cure treatment, kind of. If you know that you have consumed strychnine but you haven't had any symptoms yet, you can like flush the stomach. Right. And you can sort of maybe be okay once the symptoms do appear, However, I mean, if you give muscle relaxants, tranquilizers, and rest in a dark, quiet room without stimuli and the symptoms is kept under control.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Today we're talking about how you don't have to earn more when you can save more. So you brought me this stat. T Mobile customers had the lowest wireless bills versus Verizon and AT&T over the past five years.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

That seems surprising.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah.

[T-Mobile Announcer]

When I first heard it, I thought, mkay but when the experts at Harris X broke it down, it was true for millions of families. Five years of the lowest wireless bills versus Verizon and AT&T. And in this area where every monthly bill gets noticed, that kind of savings makes a real difference.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Plus a five year price guarantee on experience plans on America's best network. I'm not hearing any sacrifice here, which

[T-Mobile Announcer]

is what people need right now. Reliability, predictability. That kind of breathing room makes a weekend on the coast a little easier to plan. Affordable wireless service isn't a perk, it's a difference. And listeners. If you don't believe me, you can check it out. @t mobile.com Switch savings based on Harris

[Jay McLaughlin]

X billing snapshots from Q3.21 to Q4 25 compared to average ATT and Verizon bills. Comparison excludes discounts, credits and optional charges. For more details, see harrisx.comT mobile bills.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Casualty insurance company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited. By state law,

[Katie Charlwood]

poison can pass through the body within 24 hours.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Like they were talking 1850s here. But even today, there's no actual cure. Unless you are 100% sure that you ingested strychnine and you go before you have symptoms.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah, effectively. I mean, you can kind of maybe keep it under control if they like super quickly get you with like muscle relaxants, tranquilizers and the thing.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But it's a maybe.

[Katie Charlwood]

It's a maybe.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So there's no real antidote to this?

[Katie Charlwood]

There is.

[Jay McLaughlin]

No. Not only did he kill people with this poison, he. He chose something that is. And he would have understood this as well as a doctor. He would have understood that it is agonizing.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That this is a horrifying. It's not just you go to sleep and you die.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah. Not like, you know, an overdose of ether. Right. Not just something that will just.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. He wasn't suffocating them.

[Katie Charlwood]

Right.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. In my opinion, it's not like. Yes, he did this for his, you know, gambling addiction. Clearly he wanted the money so he could gamble more but he clearly didn't care if his victim suffered.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Like, that's the thing, is that he. He wasn't just poisoning for money, was he?

[Katie Charlwood]

No, he must have had something to do with it because he had other options.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Oh, yeah, he was a doctor.

[Katie Charlwood]

Doctor.

[Jay McLaughlin]

He had access to pharmacies with all levels of what he could have poisoned

[Katie Charlwood]

people with so many. So it's the Victorian arsenics everywhere. What are you talking about?

[Jay McLaughlin]

But he chose one of the most that he would have understood. One of the most painful poisons. He could have given his wife, his children and his then friend.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Plus the other people that he. There were other children that he had, like illegitimate children.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

And other people that he was around that he also allegedly poisoned. Allegedly poisoned. There's also evidence to suggest that the. One of the. One of the babies that he. Now, this is horrible, but one of the babies that he poisoned was seen to have had some sort of seizure. That's how they described what was happening, the convulsions, which, from what you've described with strychnine, is likely what he'd used at the time as well. So strychnine was his poison of choice.

[Katie Charlwood]

I know. So to kill a baby with strychnine,

[Jay McLaughlin]

to kill anyone but a baby with strychnine, like, from what you've just explained, it is beyond excruciating. I can't even imagine that.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

And to have the performance enhancer on top of that, so your brain is not even aware, it's hyper aware as you. As you pass away. This man clearly was not just in this for the gambling. No, he was clearly in this for some level of. He enjoyed it. Palmer at this point starts to spiral. The authorities are like, you know, this is. This is suspicious. We should start investigating what, you know, a man screaming as he convulses to death, I am poisoned. Would generally make you think maybe I should open an investigation. But, Palmer, immediately. This is when I'm talking about Bull in the china shop earlier. He immediately makes this situation worse. Like he has a talent for that.

[Katie Charlwood]

What? What, what, what did he do?

[Jay McLaughlin]

So the first thing he did, because there's multiple things to this, the first thing he did is he tried to bribe Cook's betting agent to hand over Cook's winnings.

[Katie Charlwood]

I'm sorry, he tried to bribe a bookie?

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, that's a smooth operation.

[Jay McLaughlin]

The bookie of a man who had just won 3,000 pounds that day, or the day before and. And had died. I mean, authorities ended up exhuming Cook's body because they had already buried him.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Now, an interesting thing about that as well is they exhumed him to the hotel room. Like they took him back.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yes.

[Jay McLaughlin]

To a hotel room and did the autopsy there. And when they were examining Cook for the second time.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yes.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Palmer went marching straight up to the corner and he said, are you going to open his stomach?

[Katie Charlwood]

No, it's not suspicious at all.

[Jay McLaughlin]

What?

[Katie Charlwood]

I'm sorry, Captain Obvious just strikes again.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I mean, you basically may as well point and say, I put it there. It's like walking into a police station and saying, just out of curiosity, how long does it take to test a murder weapon for fingerprints?

[Katie Charlwood]

Asking for a friend, but. Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm sorry. He. Wait, he goes to his bookie.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes.

[Katie Charlwood]

So he goes to his bookie.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yes.

[Katie Charlwood]

He's like, oh, give me the weddings. He goes to the bookie.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah.

[Katie Charlwood]

To try and bribe a bookie. Right.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Already a bad idea.

[Katie Charlwood]

Already a bad idea. You know, it feels like if he had just waited a day, you know, he could have gone with Cook. He could have already just waited nearby. He could have waited for Cook to get his money and then poison him

[Jay McLaughlin]

and then take the money.

[Katie Charlwood]

I feel like I shouldn't be here giving criminals advice or suggestions, but I

[Jay McLaughlin]

feel like that's common sense. The sense with William Palmer was not that common.

[Katie Charlwood]

I. I know, I know. It was definitely, I mean, uncommon, abnormal, Abby. Normal, some might even say. And listen, if I can get a young Frankenstein joke in here, I'm doing it.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I don't encourage this behavior.

[Katie Charlwood]

You don't encourage this behavior.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But no, this man didn't only murder the person who had just. His so called friend who had just won 3,000 pounds. He didn't even wait, like you said, till the money had been collected. And then, like, I'm not a gambler. I've never really been in a bookies. But they don't seem like the kind of people that you can just bribe.

[Katie Charlwood]

I don't. I've been to a bookies.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Do they seem like the people that you can just bribe to give over something? Do you think even in 1854 Victorian England, those people were like, yeah, just take the money.

[Katie Charlwood]

No, no, no.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Those people didn't want to hand over the money in the first place.

[Katie Charlwood]

So now you think they want to hand over the money to you?

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, to the person who's not. And then they would have done some investigating or maybe even heard at that point he's travel fast through the grapevine in the Victorian England.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That a man in that town had now died after winning £3,000 and there was only one person with him.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean, some mate put two and two together.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Well, they did. And the trial ended up being absolutely huge.

[Katie Charlwood]

Like James and the giant peach.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That's a very random way to put this trial, but sure, people were obsessed with this case, like James was with the peach.

[Katie Charlwood]

Absolutely matte.

[Jay McLaughlin]

For reference, Katie just hit her hand off a dresser. Off a side table.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah. It is like 100 years old, though.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Off a hundred year old, that antique. Off an antique.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Katie just hit handmaiden.

[Katie Charlwood]

I'm sorry.

[Jay McLaughlin]

People were obsessed with this case. It was the Victorian equivalent of a true crime documentary dropping on Netflix.

[Katie Charlwood]

One of the good ones.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, the good ones. Like, you know, making a murderer. Making murderer is good. I love that. I said, like, you know, and then struggle to name a true crime documentary.

[Katie Charlwood]

You know, a really good crime documentary, and then you just couldn't remember anything.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Don't fuck with cats.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, I haven't watched that one because I don't want to watch cats get hurt.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That was the hard part of episode one, because

[Katie Charlwood]

that was the hard part of the very beginning of this documentary.

[Jay McLaughlin]

It's three episodes. If you can get through Luca Magnotta killing cats in three different ways, then you can get through. And they don't know, to be fair. They don't show. They don't show. They show the start of the video where they are very much alive and then they don't show anything else on. On the documentary.

[Katie Charlwood]

I love that. I'm like, oh, don't show me the dead animals, though.

[Jay McLaughlin]

No, yeah. Like, I love that. We're like. He then went on to kill a man and record it and put it online with an ice pick by the well, with a screwdriver that he painted like an ice pick.

[Katie Charlwood]

I was. What a choice.

[Jay McLaughlin]

There's reasons behind it. You have to watch it, too.

[Katie Charlwood]

Okay.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Anyway, my point is, there's. This trial was a big deal at the time. Was like, people were flocking to this.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

So, yeah. But the jury ended up taking only 70 minutes to find Palmer guilty.

[Katie Charlwood]

That's about as fast as a polite cough before saying guilty.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Did they just go into the room and go, what do you guys think?

[Katie Charlwood]

You know, basically, that's as long as it took them to fill out the paperwork and get everything stamped.

[Jay McLaughlin]

I know. Honestly, 70 minutes, an hour and 10 minutes.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

And they came back out and said guilty.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah. They wanted to make it look like they were doing something. They probably Went in and played a game of chess.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, they probably had a whole tournament in there.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

In the time that it took. But it was pretty obvious. I mean, the man did not help his case. And I'm glad he didn't, but he did not help his case. He was the most obvious poisoner in the world.

[Katie Charlwood]

I mean, he's just like, oh, did you check his stomach's for poison, by the way?

[Jay McLaughlin]

He was like, oh, can I have his money?

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah, yeah, can I have his money? And by the way, you didn't check his stomach for poisoning.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Are you gonna. Are you gonna check it, though?

[Katie Charlwood]

Is that the other one?

[Jay McLaughlin]

Like, I'm glad he was an idiot, but, you know, you know, he got arrested.

[Katie Charlwood]

I would appreciate criminals continuing to be idiots.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah, so would I. But he was sentenced to hang, which was still obviously very big public entertainment at the time. And on June 14, 1856, outside of Stafford Prison, in front of a crowd of 30,000 onlookers.

[Katie Charlwood]

Right, now, that's even a lot for Victorian times.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. See, the Victorians loved a good public execution.

[Katie Charlwood]

That.

[Jay McLaughlin]

That we know.

[Katie Charlwood]

Dead, though.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But this was unprecedented even for the prison. He was extremely hated, for good reason, of course, but he was extremely loathed.

[Katie Charlwood]

That is wild, right? That's like stadium concert turnout level crowds,

[Jay McLaughlin]

honestly, for anyone in Ireland, that's quite, you know, half of Croak park turning up to watch someone get hanged.

[Katie Charlwood]

Yeah.

[Jay McLaughlin]

But this man. This man, like, obviously, in the two years from when he killed John Parsons Cook. Yeah. It all came out like he killed his children, he killed his wife. Yeah, all this came out. And the children were honestly the driving factor to the hate. Like the real hate. Yeah, like. And so for his final act, because he had to go out with a bang.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh. Because they always have to, don't they?

[Jay McLaughlin]

They have to get their final words or something. But anyway, he stood on the gallows, looked out on the crowd and he was asked, did he have any final words? And he says, this one does. I am innocent. Sure, Jan. Yeah. He's so innocent. So the jury, 30,000 onlookers in the rope said otherwise.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, that's nice.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Yeah. Yeah, I thought about myself. So, Katie, what do you think?

[Katie Charlwood]

What do you.

[Jay McLaughlin]

What have we learned today?

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, that if your doctor is really invested in your life insurance policy, you should run that.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Gambling debts and medical degrees are not a fantastic mix to have.

[Katie Charlwood]

Oh, and if your murder victim literally starts shouting, I am poisoned, you should probably start packing your bags.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Wise words indeed. Katie, thanks for listening to Day in

[Katie Charlwood]

Nightshed and we will see you next time. Stay safe, stay sceptical and if your doctor starts recommending you life insurance, maybe find a new doctor quickly if you've

[Jay McLaughlin]

made it to the end of this podcast. Thank you so much for listening today in Nightshade. Thank you. Please like it?

[Katie Charlwood]

I guess rate and review five stars if that's an option. If you don't want to give us five stars, you can just not do anything at all because we like the compliments.

[Jay McLaughlin]

We would appreciate compliments. That would be great.

[Katie Charlwood]

That would be great. So don't forget to like share. And of course subscribe so you can find out another tale of an infamous

[Jay McLaughlin]

poisoner from history, maybe one even inspired by the one we just covered. Intrigue.

[Katie Charlwood]

You've been listening to Day and Nightshade episodes written by Jay McLaughlin and Katie Charlwood.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Theme music by Zachary Logan and Micah

[Katie Charlwood]

Silvanis Podcast artwork by Anna Farba.

[Jay McLaughlin]

Thank you for listening.

[Katie Charlwood]

And remember, a is for arsenic

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Insurance isn't One Size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name youe Price Tool for years. Now. With the Name youe Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law Close your eyes.

[Pura Fragrance Announcer]

Summer smells like sunshine, fresh citrus and salty air. What if your living room could feel just like that? With Pura's new summer Collection, it can restore your sense of well being with fragrances designed to move with your day. From bright, energizing mornings to soft, relaxing evenings. Make the invisible unforgettable this season. Visit pura.com to find your new favorite summer scent. Summer smells like salt in the air and warm sand. Restore your sense of place with Pura's new summer fragrance collection. Discover transportive clean [e-mail].