Forensics

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Who Killed JFK? - Episode: Forensics"

Host/Authors: Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien
Release Date: November 22, 2023
Podcast: Who Killed JFK? by iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Forensics," hosts Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien delve into the intricate and controversial forensic evidence surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Commemorating the 60th anniversary of JFK's tragic death, the episode explores whether the established narrative of Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone gunman holds water or if hidden layers suggest a more complex conspiracy.

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The Controversial Autopsy

Key Points:

• The autopsy of President Kennedy was conducted at Bethesda Naval Medical Center by Dr. J. Thornton Boswell and Dr. James Humes.
• Dr. Humes admitted to burning the original autopsy report, later claiming the second report was a verbatim copy of the burned draft.

Notable Quotes:

• Soledad O’Brien [00:14]: "I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty."
• Soledad O’Brien [03:14]: "Dr. Humes says, quote, 'In the privacy of my own home, early in the morning of Sunday, November 24, I made a draft of this report, which I later revised and of which this represents the revision. That draft I personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room.'"

Insights: Dr. Humes' decision to burn the original autopsy report raises significant questions about transparency and credibility. As Doug Horn highlights, neither Humes nor Boswell were certified forensic pathologists, undermining the reliability of their findings.

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The Single Bullet Theory

Key Points:

• The Warren Commission concluded that three shots were fired, with the second shot being the "single bullet" that caused wounds to both JFK and Governor Connally.
• Dr. Cyril Wecht criticizes the implausibility of the single bullet's trajectory and condition upon recovery.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Cyril Wecht [08:41]: "Forensic evidence mattered because it was essential in determining the site from which the shot was fired. That's the key to the case."
• Dr. Cyril Wecht [12:02]: "The single bullet theory holds that one bullet entered the President's back to begin with, move upward, moving then inside the president's chest, 11 and a half degrees upward. How in the hell is that possible?"

Insights: The single bullet theory (SBT) posits that one bullet caused multiple wounds, a claim that Dr. Wecht deems highly improbable due to the bullet’s relatively pristine condition despite extensive damage it allegedly caused. This theory serves as a linchpin for the lone gunman narrative, making its validity critical to the official account.

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New Testimony from Secret Service Agent Paul Landis

Key Points:

• In September 2023, former Secret Service agent Paul Landis provided new testimony disputing the single bullet theory.
• Landis described retrieving a pristine bullet near Mrs. Kennedy, suggesting its presence contradicts the SBT.

Notable Quotes:

• Paul Landis [17:34]: "Shortly after the second shot, I heard the third shot, saw the President's head split wide open. ... As soon as she stood up, right behind where she had been sitting, there was a pristine bullet."
• Soledad O’Brien [16:37]: "Former Secret Service agent Paul Landis, who was with the President that day, is opening up for the first time about what he witnessed that, according to the New York Times, could, quote, 'change the understanding of what happened in Dallas in 1963.'"

Insights: Landis’ account suggests the existence of an additional bullet that was never accounted for in the SBT, implying that more than three shots were fired. This revelation undermines the possibility of Oswald acting alone, pointing towards a broader conspiracy.

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Discrepancies in the Wounds

Key Points:

• Parkland Hospital doctors consistently reported that JFK's throat wound was an entry wound from the front, contradicting the Warren Report's claims of an exit wound.
• Autopsy photographs in the National Archives do not show the extensive wounds described by Parkland doctors, leading to suspicions of altered or selectively presented evidence.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. David Mantic [10:12]: "James Tague was standing under the overpass... he felt something sharp hit him in the cheek. It was a piece of cement from the curb... the first shot completely missed the motorcade."
• Dr. Cyril Wecht [15:07]: "If God came to me and said, Wecht, I want you to get rid of every single piece of evidence, and I'll allow you to keep one thing, one thing only. That would be the bullet as it was recovered."
• Doug Horn [28:34]: "The Dallas doctors were unanimous... The autopsy photographs show the back of the head to be intact, which is contradicted by the treatment notes of the Parkland doctors and by their testimony in 1964."

Insights: The conflicting testimonies between Parkland doctors and the autopsy photographs raise serious doubts about the integrity of the investigation. Dick Russell adds that efforts were made to suppress witnesses who could testify to a frontal shooter, further indicating possible manipulation of evidence.

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Autopsy Report Manipulation

Key Points:

• Doug Horn reveals that Dr. Humes had two sets of conclusions in his autopsy reports.
• Sondra K. Spencer, who processed the autopsy photographs, confirmed inconsistencies suggesting that the photographs in the National Archives do not match those developed immediately after the autopsy.

Notable Quotes:

• Doug Horn [33:04]: "I did a chain of custody study on the autopsy report while I was at the review board. And so the first thing I discovered is that Dr. Humes had two sets of conclusions."
• Sondra K. Spencer [31:41]: "I would definitely say they were taken at different times."

Insights: The existence of multiple autopsy reports and altered photographs suggests intentional obfuscation by those conducting the investigation. These actions call into question the authenticity of the official records and the legitimacy of the Warren Commission’s conclusions.

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Conclusions and Implications

Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien synthesize the evidence presented, arguing that the forensics surrounding JFK's assassination do not support the lone gunman theory. The manipulation of autopsy reports, questionable qualifications of the forensic pathologists, inconsistencies in witness testimonies, and the pristine condition of the "magic bullet" collectively point towards the involvement of multiple shooters and a possible conspiracy orchestrated to conceal the truth.

Notable Quotes:

• Rob Reiner [34:30]: "The Warren Commission manipulated the evidence to fit their single bullet theory in order to prove that Oswald was a lone gunman who shot the President from behind."
• Rob Reiner [35:31]: "Whatever Lee Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he did not do it alone."

Final Insights: Despite decades of investigation, the official narrative remains unchallenged largely due to deeply entrenched conspiracy theories and possible evidence tampering. The episode emphasizes the necessity of re-examining historical records with a critical eye, especially when new testimonies emerge that starkly contradict established accounts.

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Notable Quotes Compilation

• Soledad O’Brien [03:32]: "That draft I personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room."
• Dr. Cyril Wecht [12:02]: "How in the hell is that possible?"
• Paul Landis [17:34]: "I picked this bullet up. It was not deformed..."
• Doug Horn [28:34]: "It's sickening..."

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Conclusion

The "Forensics" episode of "Who Killed JFK?" meticulously dismantles the official narrative by highlighting significant inconsistencies and newly surfaced evidence that challenges decades-old conclusions. Through expert interviews and critical analysis, hosts Reiner and O’Brien present a compelling case for re-evaluating one of America's most enduring mysteries, suggesting that the true story behind JFK's assassination remains shrouded in obscurity and potential conspiracy.

Transcript

[Soledad O'Brien]

To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, Never made sense. Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me Danny Trehov and Step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

It's the Evening of Friday, November 22, 1963. Earlier that day in Dallas, President Kennedy had been shot after the doctors at Parkland Hospital feverishly tried to save his Life. At approximately 1pm he was officially pronounced dead. The President's body was then loaded onto Air Force One, flown to Washington and taken to Bethesda Naval Medical center, where a team of pathologists began not just the most important autopsy of their careers, but but the most important autopsy in American history. 36 hours later, pathologists Dr. J. Thornton Boswell and Dr. James Humes concluded their work. Dr. Humes finished the autopsy report at home. Now he fully understands the importance of this report. It'll be a central piece of the official record that describes how the President was killed. It will be part of history, and it has to be precise. But here's what he tells the Warren Commission the following year. Soledad, could you read this? It's Dr. Humes describing what he did that evening.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Dr. Hume says, quote, in the privacy of my own home, early in the morning of Sunday, November 24, I made a draft of this report, which I later revised and of which this represents the revision. That draft I personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room.

[Rob Reiner]

Okay, could, could you repeat that last sentence?

[Soledad O'Brien]

That draft I personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room. So he's admitting to the Warren Commission that he burned the original draft of the report, then made a revised draft.

[Rob Reiner]

And once the revelation that Humes had burned the original copy of the autopsy, he had to continue to defend himself.

[Soledad O'Brien]

In 1992, Dr. Humes told the New York Times that the original copy was stained with blood and he didn't want it to become a, quote, ghoulish collector's item. He insisted that the second report was copied verbatim, word for word from the draft he burned.

[Rob Reiner]

If it was only about accepting the lame excuse of preserving the President's dignity, we might buy it. But burning the autopsy report wasn't the only thing about the forensic investigation that was suspicious. Starting with the two so called forensic pathologists that were in charge.

[Doug Horn]

Humes and Boswell were not forensic pathologists.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Doug Horn. From 1995 to 1998, he was a senior staff member of the President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board, and he's an expert on the case.

[Doug Horn]

Now, it should be troubling to everybody who studies this case that the two people selected to be the number one and number two pathologists, these guys were pathologists who did deaths due to natural causes. So Humes and Boswell really weren't qualified to be doing this autopsy, and yet they were picked.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So you have two doctors who are not certified nor qualified in forensic pathology. And the lead doctor throws his notes into the fireplace before handing in a revised draft.

[Rob Reiner]

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[Soledad O'Brien]

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledad O'Brien.

[Rob Reiner]

In the last episode, we learned that it was the intent of the Warren Commission to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin of President Kennedy. Allen Dulles, the godfather of the CIA, was placed on the commission to make sure that any damning information about the CIA was kept hidden. J. Edgar Hoover ignored evidence that might implicate anyone other than OSWALD. Then in 1976, after learning that the Warren Commission had been compromised, the House Select Committee on Assassinations launched a new investigation. And though they were able to expose more than the Warren Commission had, they too learned afterwards that their efforts had been compromised. Because the liaison to the CIA that they were given was a Man named George Johanides. He was a retired CIA agent who oversaw the Special Ops program that that had recruited Lee Harvey Oswald. And Joannidis made sure that the new committee never knew about that. And although the House investigation concluded that Kennedy was killed as a result of a conspiracy, they came to no conclusion as to who took part in it. The result? Two flawed government investigations with two completely different conclusions.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So where does it leave us?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, first let's look at the forensics. How the victim died. After that, we'll take a look at the man who they claim did it. We'll dive into Oswald's world. We'll find out who he really was, who he may have been working for, how he was set up, and who could have pulled this off. Then we'll have it all unfold again. From the days leading up to the assassination to the moment that Jack Ruby silenced Oswald. Except this time, when we ultimately relive it, we'll know the forces hiding in the shadows behind it all. Okay, so let's get into this. In any murder case, the forensic evidence is critical. It paints the picture of how the victim died, and in this case, to prove a single gunman. The forensic evidence should be straightforward. But trust me, it's far from that. The bullets, the gun, the photographs, the doctor's firsthand reports are all heavily disputed. And in this episode, we're going to go through all of that. As I said, like any other murder, you need to understand the forensic evidence.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

Forensic evidence mattered because it was essential in determining the site from which the shot was fired. That's the key to the case.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. Cyril Wecht, renowned forensic pathologist.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

The Warrant Commission report saying that Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin, the sole shooter, and that he fired from behind from the sixth floor window of the Texas Schoolbook Depository building and that there were no other shooters. That's the essence of the case. Because once you show two shooters, then you've got, of course, a conspiracy.

[Rob Reiner]

So let's take a look. According to the Warren Report, Oswald fired three shots.

[Soledad O'Brien]

How did they arrive at that number?

[Rob Reiner]

It was based on two initial pieces of evidence. One was the Dallas police report. And the second was the Zapruder film.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Remember the Dallas dressmaker, Abraham Zapruder? Got the whole thing on camera.

[Rob Reiner]

The Zapruder film has no sound, so you can't hear the shots. But you can see the President being hit twice. And you can also see Governor Connally sitting in the passenger seat in front of Kennedy, also getting hit. The Zapruder film clearly shows Three hits. So the Warren Commission established three shots.

[Dr. David Mantic]

Unfortunately for them, there was a bystander named James Tague.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. David Mantic. Dr. Mantic has made nine visits to the National Archives where the President's X rays, autopsy photos and other critical evidence sits available for select members of the public to review. You could try to get an appointment to see them or you could read any of the three books Dr. Mantic has written about them. According to Dr. Mantic, this bystander was about to create a huge problem for the Warren Commission.

[Dr. David Mantic]

James Tague was standing under the overpass to the left front of the limousine who was hit by some debris. It might have been a piece of concrete.

[Rob Reiner]

He's watching the motorcade when the first shot rings out and he feels something sharp hit him in the cheek. It was a piece of cement from the curb. And all of a sudden his cheek starts bleeding. So clearly the first shot completely missed the motorcade.

[Dr. David Mantic]

So this left the Warrant Commission only two shots to work with to explain all the wounds. So they knew that one bullet had to kill Kennedy via a headshot. So there goes one. You only. You're only left with one more shot. With that one shot, you have to explain everything else. So that's where Arlen Spector rode to the rescue on his shining white horse and invented the magic bullet theory, otherwise.

[Rob Reiner]

Known as the single bullet theory.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

And so now begins the saga of the single bullet theory.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. Wecht again, and he deserves a full introduction. He's a highly decorated forensic expert who's done more than 17,000 autopsies and who's been probing the JFK assassination since the 1960s. He's one of the most vocal critics of the Warren Report and the single bullet theory.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

Enter Arlen Specter, at that time junior legal counsel for the Warren Commission. Spector, to his credit, came up with what seemed to be a solution for them and that is known as the single bullet theory.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You'll remember Arlen Spector from our last episode. The journalist Gaten Fonzie pressed him on his single bullet theory. And when he gave Fonzie an evasive answer Fonzi published a scathing article.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

The single bullet theory holds that one bullet entered the President's back to begin with, move upward, moving then inside the president's chest, 11 and a half degrees upward. How in the hell is that possible? When the bullet comes out, it's moving again, downward, leftward and forward, turns in midair, comes back 18, 20 inches and hits calmly behind the right armpit exiting Below nipple level, the bullet in midair, turns upward. Sweeping motion goes into the wrist, causes a comminuted fracture of one of the two long bones from the elbow to the wrist. Exits from the wrist, re enters the Governor's left thigh, and that is the pathway of the single bullet.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The bullet presumably leaves the gun from the sixth floor of the building that's now above and behind Kennedy, and the bullet enters President Kennedy's back. Looking at a picture of the President's jacket, which you can easily find online, the bullet hole is in the upper middle part of his suit coat, right?

[Rob Reiner]

Then it supposedly turns upward and comes out of his throat.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

Well, my colleagues or others who try to defend that single bullet theory, they say, well, what if the President were bent over tying his shoe? No, he wasn't doing that. He was looking at the crowd and cheering and waving.

[Soledad O'Brien]

It's pretty clear when you watch the Zapruder film, he is not hunched over. The President is poised upward toward the crowd.

[Dick Russell]

When Governor Connally testified to the Warren Commission, that's Dick Russell, he repeated multiple times that he was not hit by the same bullet that had hit jfk.

[Rob Reiner]

As a matter of fact, if you look at the Zapruder film, you'll see that when Kennedy reacts to getting hit in the throat, Connolly then turns around to see what happened. Then, moments later, he gets hit. There's no way that it can be the same bullet that hit Kennedy.

[Dick Russell]

The surgeons who operated on Governor Connally's wrist and chest wounds at Parkland also noted that they did not think all of his wounds had been made by the same bullet.

[Soledad O'Brien]

It seems to me people are divided into two camps, right? There are people who believe the single bullet theory and people who think the single bullet theory is crazy. If you believe it, then you believe that one bullet caused all that damage.

[Rob Reiner]

But it's not just about the path of the bullet. To fully consider the single bullet theory, you have to ask yourself two questions. The first question, how did the bullet look when it was recovered?

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

If God came to me and said, wecht, I want you to get rid of every single piece of evidence, and I'll allow you to keep one thing, one thing only. That would be the bullet as it was recovered.

[Rob Reiner]

And it is nearly perfect condition. And you can see a picture of that bullet in the National Archives. It's listed as a Warren Commission Exhibit 399. A bullet that went in and out of both Kennedy and Connally, breaking Connally's bones, still looked pristine. Which brings us to the second question. Where did they Find the magic bullet.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

What happened later on was that a maintenance man, finding the ER corridor blocked by a stretcher, bent down to move the stretcher, and lo and behold, there was a bullet. The bullet's pristine. Nobody had seen this bullet. Missed by everybody at Dallas, missed by everybody at Parkland before then, and so on.

[Rob Reiner]

That was the official story. This pristine bullet just appeared on a stretcher in Parkland. A mystery that has confused researchers for decades, until, in September 2023, there was a bombshell. A Secret Service agent named Paul Landis was on the running board of the car behind Kennedy.

[Dr. David Mantic]

New bombshell claims tonight by one of.

[Rob Reiner]

The Secret Service agents who was closest.

[Dr. David Mantic]

To John F. Kennedy when he was assassinated, a new version of what might have happened to the magic bullet.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Former Secret Service agent Paul Landis, who was with the President that day, is opening up for the first time about what he witnessed that, according to the.

[Doug Horn]

New York Times, could, quote, change the understanding of what happened in Dallas in 1963.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So, Rob, I saw this story in primetime, on CNN, on NBC. It was in People magazine. It was in Vanity Fair, it was in the New York Times. They all covered it.

[Rob Reiner]

Right. And Paul Landis was kind enough to talk with us. Paul, from where the President was sitting, how far behind were you?

[Paul Landis]

Probably 15, no more than 20ft.

[Rob Reiner]

Can you just describe what you saw at the moment that the President was hit?

[Paul Landis]

Shortly after the second shot, I heard the third shot, saw the President's head split wide open. A mist of blood and flesh and brain matter flew into the air. I ducked to avoid getting splattered. And at that point, we zoomed under the underpass, and we were on our way to Tartland Memorial Hospital. I raced to the president's limousine. Mrs. Kennedy was sitting on left center of the rear seat. There was a pool of blood next to Mrs. Kennedy. And as soon as she stood up, right behind where she had been sitting, there was a pristine bullet. I picked this bullet up. It was not deformed, other than it had recognized striations on it, that it had been fired. And looking around, everybody was concentrating on the President. I didn't know what to do right away, but I was afraid. This Bullock was an important piece of evidence, and I didn't want it to get lost, so I slipped it in my pocket and we raced in with the gurney carrying the President's body. And we arrived at Trauma Room 1. People were shoving, pushing, shouting. I happen to be pushed up right next to his feet. So I reached into my pocket, took it out, and placed it by The President.

[Rob Reiner]

So what does this tell us? Unless the single bullet theorists are going to claim that the bullet after going through Kennedy and Connally was able to bounce back from where it allegedly exited Connally's body in the front seat and somehow wound up in the back seat. It can't be the same bullet. What Landis is telling us finally makes sense. First it explains how a bullet got onto a gurney at Parkland. He put it there. And second, it explains why the bullet was in near pristine condition. It never broke any bones on its path through two people. This completely destroys the single bullet theory. There is no magic bullet. Which means that there had to have been at least a fourth shot. Which means there had to have been another shooter. And we know conclusively that Oswald could not have fired four shots in that time span. This points directly at a conspiracy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So then what's weird to me as a journalist is this new testimony. Like he never mentioned this when he was questioned 60 years ago.

[Rob Reiner]

He was never questioned 60 years ago.

[Paul Landis]

Nobody ever asked. Warren Commission never interviewed any of the other agents that were in the follow up car.

[Rob Reiner]

Now let's talk about the number of shots fired. Remember the Warren Report said that three shots were fired.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

The Mannlicher Carcano, a non automatic carbine which was the alleged murder weapon used by Oswald was tested by top marksman and it was determined that it took 2.3 seconds from shot to shot. Without allowing time for re aiming and repositioning at a moving target. They determined that the first shot that hit Kennedy was followed by a second shot at 1.5 seconds. Well how was that possible when it was determined that it took 2.3 seconds from shot to shot?

[Rob Reiner]

As they say, do the math. The single bullet, the timing of the shots. We're just getting started. To have a murder as gruesome as Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Dr. David Mantic]

This case, the more I learned about it, the more I'm scratching my head.

[Rob Reiner]

Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco. Murder on Songbird Road. Dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere.

[Doug Horn]

It's sickening future.

[Rob Reiner]

You step sleep that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change clothes? She found out she was pregnant, in jail. She wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet, and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports, and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

Now let's take a look at some of the testimonies from the Parkland doctors who tried to save Kennedy's life.

[Soledad O'Brien]

According to the Warren Report, JFK's car raced from Dealey Plaza to Parkland Hospital, and it arrived at 12:35pm Everyone at.

[Rob Reiner]

Parkland was on high alert, getting ready for Kennedy's arrival. Among them was Dr. Malcolm Perry, a trauma room physician. He worked feverishly trying to keep the President alive. But once the President was pronounced dead later that day, he talked to the press and he described the shot to Kennedy's neck as an entrance wound.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The New York Times published the transcript from that press conference. It goes. Reporter. Where was the entrance wound? Dr. Perry There was an entrance wound in the neck. Reporter. Which way was the bullet coming on? The neck wound, madam. Dr. Perry. It appeared to be coming at him. Reporter. You think from the front in the throat? Dr. Perry. The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat? Yes, that is correct. Well, so that's pretty clear.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, one would think. But it's not the way Dr. Perry's story ends.

[Dr. David Mantic]

According to information we have just received from a recently discovered notebook kept by Martin Stedman, we've learned a little more about this story about Dr. Perry.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. Mantic again now talking about the journalist Martin Stedman. Stedman covered this story for decades.

[Dr. David Mantic]

A week after the assassination, Stedman and a few colleagues went to visit Dr. Perry at his home in Dallas. And they asked him, well, Dr. Perry, what do you really believe? Do you think this was an entry wound? And he said, absolutely, it was an entry wound. And he told him what had happened the night of the autopsy. And the morning after, he said he had gotten several calls from the autopsy room, from the autopsy doctors, who told him that if he didn't change his mind about the entry wound, he was probably going to lose his medical license. And so the journalist finished up by asking him, well, Dr. Perry, after all of this, what do you really think? He said it was an entry wound.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So he says, again, it's an entry wound.

[Dr. David Mantic]

After a long, long paragraph of assumptions, he finally admitted to the Warren Commission that it could have been a shot from the rear.

[Soledad O'Brien]

But this is the guy who repeated three times that the bullet entered from the front of the throat.

[Rob Reiner]

Right. Why would he change his mind in.

[Dick Russell]

The 1970s, that's Dick Russell, a Dallas Secret Service agent named Elmer Moore confessed that he, quote, had badgered Dr. Perry into making a flat statement that there was no entrance wound in the neck. He said he was operating under orders from Washington and the Secret Service. He said he regretted it, but that, quote, we all did everything we were told or we'd get our heads cut off.

[Rob Reiner]

Perry wasn't the only one that day who said that the shots that hit Kennedy were fired from the front.

[Dick Russell]

Statements from 21 witnesses at Parkland Hospital that day reported seeing a massive head wound in the back of Kennedy's skull.

[Dr. Cyril Wecht]

The doctors at Parkland described a big wound that reached into the posterior part of the skull on the right side.

[Dick Russell]

The journalist, Connie Kreutzberg interviewed some of those doctors at Parkland in the immediate aftermath of that day. She got testimony from one of the neurosurgeons, Dr. Kemp Clark, who also said that there was a huge wound in the right rear of the President's head.

[Rob Reiner]

And then there's Dr. McClellan, one of the surgeons that worked to save the President's life that day.

[Dick Russell]

Dr. McClellan testified to the Warren Commission that part of the cerebellum was blasted away.

[Dr. David Mantic]

There was a big hole in the back of his head.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. Mantic again.

[Dr. David Mantic]

It was the size of an orange, at least, if not even a little larger. And dozens, literally dozens of witnesses have said the same thing.

[Rob Reiner]

So the shot that killed the President came from the front.

[Dr. David Mantic]

It's totally consistent with a big hole in the back of the head.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So were the doctors testimonies just ignored by investigators and by the folks on the Warren Commission.

[Dick Russell]

One of the doctors, Ron Jones, said that assassination investigators knew of reports of a second shooter but ignored them. A Warren Commission investigator is said to have told him, quote, we have people who would testify that they saw somebody shoot the President from the front, but we don't want to interview them and I don't want you saying anything about that either.

[Rob Reiner]

And who was that investigator?

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who?

[Rob Reiner]

Arlen Spector.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The creator of the single bullet theory?

[Rob Reiner]

The same. Now let's dig deeper into what happened during the autopsy at the Bethesda Naval Hospital.

[Doug Horn]

The Dallas doctors were unanimous. If you study their treatment notes that they wrote the day of the President's death.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Doug Horn.

[Doug Horn]

It's that the President had a big blowout in the right rear of his head, behind his ear. The right rear portion of the head. Well, the problem is that the autopsy photograph showed the back of the head to be intact.

[Rob Reiner]

To have a murder as gruesome as Jake Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Dr. David Mantic]

This case, the more I learned about it, the more more I'm scratching my head.

[Rob Reiner]

Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere.

[Doug Horn]

It's sickening.

[Rob Reiner]

If you stab somebody that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change of clothes?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

She found out she was pregnant.

[Rob Reiner]

And jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

She wasn't treated like she was an.

[Rob Reiner]

Innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet, and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So, Dr. Horn, if the autopsy photographs in the archives don't show a gaping wound in the back of his head, what do they show?

[Doug Horn]

The autopsy photographs show the back of the head to be intact, but that's contradicted by the treatment notes of the Parkland doctors and by their testimony in 1964. So the government had a problem. If those photographs had made it into the official record, that would have supported the observations of the Parkland doctors, because the right cerebellum would have been almost totally destroyed, most of it missing, much of the rear of the brain missing.

[Dr. David Mantic]

When we look at the photographs of the back of his head at the archives, everything is totally intact.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dr. Mantic again.

[Dr. David Mantic]

It looks like the hair has just been freshly washed with hardly any blood anywhere, and yet the shirt is totally soaked with blood. How is that possible?

[Dick Russell]

A woman named Sondra K. Spencer processed the photos that were taken of the.

[Soledad O'Brien]

President's head during the autopsy in November 1963. She was a petty officer in charge of the White House Laboratory at npc, the Naval Photographic Center. Here she is being interviewed by the ARRB in the 1990s. The questioner says, can you tell me whether those photographs correspond with the photographs you developed in November of 1963? She says, no, let's start with a.

[Paul Landis]

Conjecture as to whether the photographs that you developed.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The questioner says, let's start with the conjecture as to whether the photographs that you developed and the photographs that you. That you observe today could have been taken at different times.

[Rob Reiner]

I would definitely say they were taken.

[Soledad O'Brien]

At different times, she says, I would definitely say they were taken at different times.

[Dr. David Mantic]

Of course, the actual authentic autopsy photographs did show a big hole in the back of the head. And we have several witnesses at the autopsy who saw those photographs and their testimonies in the record today.

[Soledad O'Brien]

To be clear, what you're saying is that the photos that Sandra K. Spencer developed are not the ones that are in the National Archives.

[Doug Horn]

I did a chain of custody study on the autopsy report while I was at the review board. And so the first thing I discovered is that Dr. Humes had two sets of conclusions.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's what makes it all the more remarkable, that he burned his first copy.

[Doug Horn]

Sometime after the FBI agents left, Humes made this new pronouncement because somebody had called Dr. Perry at Parkland Hospital.

[Soledad O'Brien]

How do we know this?

[Doug Horn]

Perry told Nurse Bell the following day. She said, you look like hell. What's wrong? And he said, well, I didn't get much sleep last night. And she said, why? And he said, well, they had me on the phone off and on all night long from Bethesda Naval Hospital. People were trying to get me to change my mind about the fact that the President was shot in the throat from the front they wanted me to change my mind and say that was really an exit wound in his throat.

[Rob Reiner]

This was all happening the night of the assassination.

[Doug Horn]

Humes and Boswell met the next morning on Saturday to review the first draft of the autopsy report. They met at 10 o'clock in the morning. Humes worked on it all night at home. And then it was typed. Boswell told us this under oath. Somebody that day rejected that report because what does Humes do on Sunday? He burns the first draft of the autopsy report and most of the original notes in his fireplace.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Okay, so where does this leave us? Sum it up for me.

[Rob Reiner]

Okay. The Warren Commission manipulated the evidence to fit their single bullet theory in order to prove that Oswald was a lone gunman who shot the President from behind. Several witnesses, many of them medical professionals, who saw Kennedy's wounds at Parkland Hospital that day, contradicted this. They said that the President's wounds were a result of shots that came from the front. The autopsy report conducted by doctors who had very little experience with gunshot wounds, who had burned. The original report contained photographs that had no correlation to the wounds observed by the Parkland doctors or the photographer who initially took the pictures. All of this points to the shooters in locations other than just the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. And that means whatever Lee Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he did not do it alone.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You seem convinced that the forensics lead to the conclusion that there had to be more than one shooter. So then why is the official narrative still one of a lone gunman?

[Rob Reiner]

You know, it's perfect that you use that word, narrative, because the evidence was going to show that Oswald was part of a narrative, a narrative that he was completely unaware of. And when you take a look at his journey into this narrative, the picture will become a lot clearer.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Next time on who Killed jfk.

[Rob Reiner]

If you don't learn who Lee Harvey Oswald really was, there's no way you can understand what happened on that day.

[Soledad O'Brien]

We'll pull back the curtain on Lee. Lee Harvey Oswald.

[Dr. David Mantic]

I was under the impression that Lee.

[Doug Horn]

Was being trained for a specific operation.

[Rob Reiner]

He was of interest to the highest counterintelligence officer in the CIA for four.

[Dick Russell]

Years before President Kennedy was killed.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Soledad O'Brien. And our executive producers are Rob Reiner, me, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinero. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfine and Amari Liede. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero and Marcus Dilaudo. Our Project Manager is Carol Klein. Our Associate producer is Emilse Quiros. Mixing, mastering and sound design by Ben Lahoulier and archival audio in this episode. Thanks to the 6th Floor Museum and Dick Russell. Research and fact checking by Girl Friday and Emilse Quiros Business affairs by Henan Naraya and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Rosanne Gallagini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show Logo by Lucy Quintanilla Production assistance by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Barron. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arce and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK is a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions and I Heart Podcasts to have a murderer as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, never made sense. Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trejold and step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.