The Lead Up

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Who Killed JFK?" – Episode: The Lead Up

Introduction

In the gripping episode titled "The Lead Up" from the podcast series Who Killed JFK?, hosted by legendary filmmaker Rob Reiner and acclaimed journalist Soledad O’Brien, listeners are plunged into the intricate web of events and characters surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Released on December 13, 2023, this episode commemorates the 60th anniversary of JFK's tragic death by unraveling new evidence and revisiting long-standing theories that have kept America's greatest murder mystery alive for decades.

Setting the Scene: September 20, 1963

The episode begins with Rob Reiner recounting a mysterious bank incident in El Paso, Texas, on September 20, 1963. A man in a dark suit enters the State National Bank, commits two shots into the ceiling with a .45 caliber revolver, and calmly exits. An off-duty police officer, Jim Bundren, responds to the scene.

• Jim Bundren [02:31]: "Believe it or not, I was on my day off."

• Officer Bundren [02:36]: Describes the suspect's appearance and actions, highlighting the absence of a weapon.

The suspect, later identified as Richard Case Nagle—a decorated former US Army veteran and CIA operative—is arrested for attempted bank robbery. Bundren’s interaction with Nagle sets the stage for uncovering deeper connections to the JFK assassination.

Introducing Richard Case Nagle

Soledad O’Brien introduces Dick Russell, an award-winning journalist who delves into the enigmatic figure of Richard Case Nagle. Nagle, arrested for the attempted bank robbery, is revealed to have a complex background:

• Dick Russell [03:53]: "The man in the dark suit is Richard Case Nagle."

Nagle's arrest two months before JFK's assassination places him at a critical juncture in American history, suggesting potential links to covert operations and intelligence activities.

Nagle’s Intricate Ties to the CIA and Oswald

The narrative deepens as Dick Russell shares his extensive research and personal interactions with Nagle. Nagle was involved in top-secret Army intelligence known as Field Operations Intelligence (FOI), a covert extension of CIA activities designed to obscure true CIA objectives. His missions included:

1. Recruiting Soviet Defectors: Nagle and Lee Harvey Oswald were tasked in Japan to recruit Soviet officers to defect.
2. Monitoring Oswald: Upon Oswald’s return to the United States, Nagle was instructed to keep an eye on him.

• Dick Russell [06:27]: "Nagel was arrested on September 20, 1963, two months before President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas."

Nagle’s connection to Oswald introduces the possibility of Oswald being a pawn in larger geopolitical games. The episode explores how Nagle, torn between his loyalty to the United States and Soviet demands, was coerced into potentially eliminating Oswald to prevent a nuclear confrontation.

Operation Northwoods and False Flag Operations

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing Operation Northwoods, a covert plan developed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in 1962 that proposed committing false flag acts to justify military intervention in Cuba.

• Jefferson Morley [25:34]: "Operation Northwoods is one of the most significant revelations about the JFK assassination to come out in the last 25 years."

The plan included faking terrorist attacks, such as hijacking planes and sinking ships, to instill public support for invading Cuba. This historical context raises questions about the possibility of similar false flag operations being employed to orchestrate JFK’s assassination.

Nagle’s Warnings and Mysterious Death

As delving deeper, Dick Russell recounts Nagle’s attempts to warn Oswald about the impending assassination plot:

• Dick Russell [14:33]: "Nagel was trapped. His loyalty was to the United States. He knew he couldn't do it, but he also knew that if he ignored the orders from the KGB, they would take him out."

Nagle's efforts to save Oswald and expose the plot led him to send detailed letters to J. Edgar Hoover and the CIA, alongside planting a notebook in his car containing incriminating information. Despite these actions, Nagle's life took a tragic turn:

• Soledad O’Brien [17:20]: "So you believe that Nagel was killed before he could talk?"

Russell confirms suspicions about Nagle’s untimely death, suggesting it was orchestrated to silence him before he could reveal critical evidence.

Patterns of Mysterious Deaths

The episode highlights a disturbing pattern of key witnesses connected to the Warren Commission facing mysterious deaths shortly after the assassination:

• Rob Reiner [19:45]: "There were a number of people who died mysteriously within three years after the Warren Commission Report was released."

This pattern includes figures like George de Morenshield and mob boss Johnny Roselli, whose deaths are presented as possible eliminations to protect the truth behind the assassination.

Operation Northwoods and Its Implications

Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien delve into the details of Operation Northwoods, emphasizing its role as a blueprint for potential false flag operations:

• Rob Reiner [24:40]: "The closest thing we have to a smoking gun is a document that the Pentagon kept secret for almost 40 years. This document outlined a plan called Operation Northwoods."

The plan’s revelation challenges the integrity of government actions during that era, suggesting that such deceitful strategies could have been employed in the JFK assassination to manipulate public opinion and international relations.

Connecting the Dots: CIA Involvement and Oswald’s Role

The narrative weaves together the CIA’s possible involvement in orchestrating the assassination, with Lee Harvey Oswald positioned as a false flag assassin. The hosts and experts discuss how Oswald’s immediate portrayal as a pro-Castro figure post-assassination aligned with CIA propaganda efforts:

• Jefferson Morley [29:38]: "Within hours of Kennedy's assassination, Oswald is arrested and CIA propaganda assets go to work to link him immediately to the Castro government."

This swift framing of Oswald creates a convenient scapegoat, diverting attention from potential internal conspiracies within the US government.

Concluding Insights and Future Directions

As the episode draws to a close, Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien ponder the remaining mysteries surrounding the JFK assassination. With nearly 5,000 records still withheld, the quest for definitive answers continues:

• Rob Reiner [24:25]: "Well, I don't. I really, I don't."

The hosts express skepticism about finding conclusive evidence in the remaining records, citing the likelihood that the CIA may have already destroyed key documents. They also highlight the endurance of conspiracy theories, fueled by historical precedents of false flag operations like Operation Northwoods.

Closing Thoughts

"The Lead Up" offers a compelling exploration of the intricate and shadowy connections that may have led to President Kennedy's assassination. Through detailed interviews, historical analysis, and the presentation of new evidence, the episode challenges listeners to reconsider established narratives and remain open to alternative theories. As Reiner and O’Brien navigate through decades-old mysteries, they underscore the significance of continued inquiry into one of America’s most enduring enigmas.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Soledad O’Brien [00:02]: "To have a murder as gruesome as Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down."

• Rob Reiner [02:31]: "I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere. It's sickening."

• Dick Russell [06:27]: "Nagel was arrested on September 20, 1963, two months before President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas."

• Dick Russell [09:10]: "In the early 60s, when Nagel came back to the United States..."

• Soledad O’Brien [06:23]: "So, Dick, explain to us who is Richard Case Nagle."

• Jefferson Morley [25:34]: "Operation Northwoods is one of the most significant revelations about the JFK assassination to come out in the last 25 years."

• Rob Reiner [29:23]: "So you're saying the plan that President Kennedy rejected was the plan they used to kill him?"

• Rob Reiner [24:40]: "The closest thing we have to a smoking gun is a document that the Pentagon kept secret for almost 40 years."

Structure and Attribution

The summary is organized into clear sections, each focusing on different aspects of the episode, such as the introduction of key figures, exploration of Operation Northwoods, and the mysterious deaths of witnesses. Quotes are meticulously attributed to their respective speakers with precise timestamps, enhancing the summary's credibility and usefulness for those who have not listened to the episode.

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Credits

Who Killed JFK? is produced by Soledad O'Brien Productions and iHeartPodcasts. The collaborative effort of hosts Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien, along with executive producers Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman, and Dick Russell, ensures a thorough and engaging exploration of JFK's assassination. The episode also acknowledges contributions from writers, researchers, editors, and various production staff who meticulously pieced together this compelling narrative.

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Listen to the Full Episode

For a deeper dive into the evidence, interviews, and theories discussed in "The Lead Up," listen to the full episode on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Soledad O'Brien]

To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, Never made sense.

[Danny Trehov]

Still doesn't make sense.

[Rob Reiner]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trehov and Step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

It's September 20, 1963. A man in a dark suit walks into a post office in El Paso, Texas. He mails three registered letters, then strolls across the street and enters the State National Bank. He approaches the teller and asks for $100 in American Express Traveler's checks. As the teller works on his request, the man in the dark suit pulls out a.45 caliber revolver and fires two shots into the ceiling of the bank. As people duck for cover, the man casually exits the bank. An off duty police officer named Jim Bundren, who is in the vicinity, hears the shots.

[Officer Bundren]

Believe it or not, I was on my day off.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Officer Bundren.

[Officer Bundren]

I heard the shots. Everybody was just, you know, just shocked, right? And I says, where is he and what's he wearing? And he said, blue suit, white shirt, red tie. Evidently he had run out of the bank with a gun in his hand. And I know he couldn't have gotten that far ahead of me right when this car pulls out of the alley. Then I could see his face was flushed, I could see the white shirt, red tie, and I just, I Drew. Uh huh. And he just, he didn't say anything.

[Rob Reiner]

Officer Bundren arrests him. And as he's being handcuffed, the man in the dark suit invites the officer to look into the trunk of his car. The officer carefully opens the trunk and in it he finds a bizarre collection of cameras, photos and documents.

[Officer Bundren]

He had a real small Minolta camera, I think, in the bougie. Probably called a spy camera.

[Jon Stewart]

Right.

[Officer Bundren]

And he had his own processing lamp with him. I searched his car. He had pictures of top secret restricted areas, pictures of the inside of compounds, and a lot of pictures of dead bodies.

[Dick Russell]

The man in the dark suit is Richard Case Nagle.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dick Russell. Richard Case Nagle is a former US army veteran, three time Purple Heart recipient, intelligence officer and CIA operative.

[Dick Russell]

Nagle's arrested and charged with attempted bank robbery.

[Officer Bundren]

And it is a preliminary hearing. I sat and just talked to him. It's like you and I were talking. And he says, well, I'm glad you caught me. He says, I really don't want to be in Dallas. And I says, well, what do you mean by that? He says, you're not saying that.

[Rob Reiner]

Nagel was arrested on September 20, 1963, two months before President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas.

[Soledad O'Brien]

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledad O'Brien.

[Rob Reiner]

Now, last episode, we took you through Oswald's bizarre return to the United States. We met his CIA connected babysitters, George de Morenshield and Ruth Payne, who were tasked with looking out for him. We discussed the time that Oswald spent in New Orleans where he was arrested for handing out pro Castro leaflets. We also introduced you to the CIA's head of counterintelligence, James Jesus Angleton and his wilderness of mirrors. Angleton was known as the poet's spy and he was obsessed with removing Castro from Cuba. Now it's important to keep all that in mind as we move forward.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So what comes next?

[Rob Reiner]

Okay. In New Orleans in the summer of 1963, while handing out the leaflets for the Fair Play for Cuba committee, Oswald gets into a fight with a bunch of anti Castro activists. He's arrested and the first thing he does is request to speak to an FBI agent. On September 25, the White House announces that the President will be visiting Dallas in November. Then we start to see a swell of COVID activity. Chess pieces are being moved around the board. Richard K. Snagle, the man in the dark suit who Shot two bullets into the ceiling of the bank. He's going to give us insight into how all this covert activity will lead us to a history changing event.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So, Dick, explain to us who is Richard Case Nagle.

[Dick Russell]

Nagle was a decorated veteran, a Bronze Star medal winner and a former intelligence officer. As we mentioned earlier, he first met Oswald in Japan where they were tasked to try to recruit a Soviet officer to defect.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So how did you first encounter Nagel?

[Dick Russell]

I first heard about him from another JFK researcher in the 1970s. I was intrigued hearing about this Bronze Star medal recipient that claimed to have known Oswald. So I did some research. I went to El Paso where he was arrested for the so called bank robbery. I went through the newspaper and court files there. There were both Secret Service and FBI files saying that he requested, quote, to speak to a Secret Service agent about an urgent matter. The afternoon of the assassination, I knew I'd stumbled onto something. So I found out where he lived. I traveled to Manhattan beach in Southern California. And I just knocked on the door. And this shadowy figure with a scar across his face opens the door and asked me what I wanted. I told him I'd come all the way from New York to interview him. After an uncomfortable silence, he let me in. And once we sat down, I asked if I could tape him. And he looked at me and said, no, but I'm gonna tape you. So he turned on his tape recorder and we started to talk. And he spoke cryptically. But it was about knowing Oswald and that he'd been involved in the assassination. For some reason, he seemed to trust me. So we agreed to meet again. This time at a seedy dive bar. Because he was aware that his movements were being tracked. And it was there that he told me that what he knew about the assassination had ruined his life.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The two continued to meet for 15 years. And eventually, in 1992, Dick published his 824 page book about Nagel called the man who Knew Too Much. So take me back to where this all started for Nagel.

[Dick Russell]

In Japan in 1957 and 1958. Nagel was working for a top secret army intelligence unit that was closely connected to the CIA. It was called Field Operations Intelligence, or FOI.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The American public didn't know that FOI existed until Nagel described its mission in a 1974 court document. He said it was, quote, a covert extension of CIA policy and activity designed to conceal the true nature of CIA objectives. He then went on to say, quote, in the event I was apprehended, killed or compromised during the Performance of my illegal FOI duties. The Department of the army would publicly disclaim any knowledge of or connection with such duties.

[Dick Russell]

In the early 60s, when Nagel came back to the United States, Cuba had become the focus of American intelligence. The CIA gave Nagel the assignment of renouncing his American citizenship and approaching Soviet intelligence to offer his services. Much like they'd done with Oswald. And the Soviets then recruited him for their own intelligence gathering.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So he became a double agent.

[Dick Russell]

Correct. The Soviets gave him two. One, penetrate a violent group of anti Castro Cuban exiles and two, keep an eye on Lee Harvey Oswald who had just returned to America.

[Soledad O'Brien]

And were those two missions related?

[Dick Russell]

@ first there was no relationship between Oswald and that particular group of Cuban exiles. But in the summer of 1963, Nagel went to New Orleans and that's where he was reconnected with Oswald. He learned that Oswald was being brought into plans that he didn't fully understand and that plots to assassinate Kennedy were being discussed. Oswald was being primed to be the fall guy. But the Soviets, who'd become fully aware of these plans, didn't want Kennedy killed and they didn't want Oswald to be blamed. They knew it would depend on them or Cuba and could trigger a nuclear war.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So what did the Soviets want Nagel to do?

[Dick Russell]

They wanted him to take Oswald out.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You mean to kill him?

[Dick Russell]

Yes.

[Rob Reiner]

To have a murder as gruesome as Jake Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about it, the more I'm scratching my head.

[Dick Russell]

Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco. Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere. It's sickening. If you step sleep that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change of clothes? She found out she was pregnant in jail. She wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition Podcast the Daily Show Podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare Enter Nocturnal Tale from the Shadows Presented by iheart and Sonora an anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America, from ghastly encounters with with shapeshifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturno Tales from the Shadows as part of my Cultura Podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Rob Reiner]

They.

[Dick Russell]

Wanted him to take Oswald out.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You mean to kill him?

[Dick Russell]

Yes. Nagel was trapped. His loyalty was to the United States. He knew he couldn't do it, but he also knew that if he ignored the orders from the kgb, they would take him out.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Talk about between a rock and a hard place. So what does he do?

[Dick Russell]

First, he tried to warn Oswald that he was being used.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So walk me through that. How did he warn him?

[Dick Russell]

He meets with Oswald in Jackson Square in New Orleans and tries to explain to him that the group of Cuban exiles he's been associated with are not who they say they are, and that he is being used by extreme fascist elements to attempt an assassination on Kennedy in order to justify invading Cuba. Nagel told me that when Oswald heard this, he was, quote, visibly shaken, but denied there'd been any discussion about killing Kennedy and just shrugged him off. Nagel knew that when he couldn't convince Oswald, his life would be at risk, so he figured the safest place for him was to be in prison. He told me that just before shooting up the bank, he mailed a registered letter to J. Edgar Hoover detailing what he knew about the assassination plot and sent another warning letter to his handlers in the CIA. Then, to back up his story, he placed a notebook in his car that contained information that only someone on the inside would have had. Several of the notations were virtually identical to what the authorities later found among Oswald's possessions. They both had small Minolta spy cameras. They both had leaflets for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. And they both had the same unlisted phone number for the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Did getting arrested save him?

[Dick Russell]

It kept him alive for a while, but it ended up ruining his life. He was in prison for four and a half years. Part of which he spent in a psych ward. That's how they began to build out a narrative that he was nuts.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So as a person who's interviewing him because you're writing your book. How do you navigate that question of his credibility? How do you decide you know what's true?

[Dick Russell]

First, you assess the existing evidence, which means Nagel's notebook. The fact that he had an ID card for Oswald showing up in his lawyer's files. And the newspaper accounts of his trial in El Paso. Where he tried to bring up Oswald and the assassination. Second, interview as many people as possible who knew him. And I found many who attested to his background and credibility. A couple of these. Jim Garrison and attorney Bernard Fenster Wall, Jr. Told me Nagel was the most important living witness. To what happened on November 22, 1963. And I realized that the powers behind the COVID up were determined to marginalize him. First, paint him as crazy. Then, after he got out of prison, the CIA tracked his movements. And there were a number of attempts on his life.

[Soledad O'Brien]

How long were you in contact with him?

[Dick Russell]

I met with him periodically for more than 20 years. And during that time I saw a man who was torn. He wanted to come clean, to reveal what he knew. But he knew that if he told everything, he'd be killed. So he would drop hints to steer me in the right direction.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Like Deep Throat in Watergate.

[Dick Russell]

Right. And at one point he told me that if anything happened to him. There was a record of everything he knew that he kept stored in various locations. And that only certain people were aware of. And he believed that's what kept him alive.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So he did manage to stay alive for a while.

[Dick Russell]

Then, in 1995, when the assassination Records Review Board was doing its investigation. They heard me talk about Nagel at a conference and decided that they wanted to interview him. On the day the subpoena arrived at his apartment. Nagel was found dead.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So you believe that Nagel was killed before he could talk?

[Dick Russell]

Let me answer that. This way. When I called his son to tell him about his father. His son told me that his apartment had just been broken into and was ransacked. Then he told me about his key his dad had left in his apartment to a storage unit in Tucson. And that in that storage unit was a purple trunk which contained Material his father had kept hidden for years. When he heard what had happened to his dad Nagel's son flew to Tucson to check the storage unit. He opened it up, looked inside and the only thing missing was the purple trunk. So was Nagel killed before he could talk? Yeah, I believe he was.

[Rob Reiner]

And he wasn't the only one.

[Soledad O'Brien]

What happened to Nagel happened to others.

[Rob Reiner]

Remember George de Mornshield, Oswald's babysitter in Dallas?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Yeah.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You said the last time he talked about the assassination was in an interview he did with a journalist in 1977. What happened after that?

[Rob Reiner]

A little over a decade after testifying to the Warren Commission that Oswald had acted alone de Mornchild decided he was going to tell the truth about what he knew. So he wrote a manuscript titled I'm a Patsy, I'm a Patsy, which was later published posthumously as a book titled Lee Harvey Oswald As I Knew Him.

[Dick Russell]

When de Morenshield started to go public, the House Select Committee decided to summon him. De Mornshield was living in Florida at the time not far from Gaten Fonzie.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Remember, Gaten Fonzie is the journalist who challenged Arlen Spector on the single bullet theory. At the time, Fonzie was working as an investigator for the committee.

[Rob Reiner]

Fonzie goes to de Mornchield's house to talk to him. He isn't home, so he leaves his business card with de Morenshiel's adult daughter. He tells her he'll be calling later that night to set a time for a formal questioning. And so when the marshal arrives home, his daughter tells him about Fonzie's visit gives him Fonzie's business card. The Morinshill puts the card in his pocket, goes upstairs and the next morning he's found dead with a bullet in his head. With Fonzie's business card still in his pocket.

[Dick Russell]

They said he'd committed suicide, but his wife told me it was definitely not a suicide. And Nagel told me the same thing, that he was murdered before he could testify.

[Rob Reiner]

There was also mob boss Johnny Roselli. Right before he was supposed to testify he was found chopped up, stuffed into an oil drum and dumped into Biscayne Bay. There were a number of people who died mysteriously within three years after the Warren Commission Report was released. Eighteen key witnesses died of either a heart attack, an accident or suicide. Something that has always fascinated me is the people who were tangentially involved but managed to survive.

[Dick Russell]

Like Ruth Payne.

[Rob Reiner]

Like Ruth Payne.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You'll remember Ruth Payne as one of The CIA connected people who became close with the Oswald family when they returned.

[Rob Reiner]

To the US on September 25, the White House formally announces that the President will be taking a tour through Texas, stopping at Dallas on November 22nd. That same week, Marina accepts Ruth Payne's invitation to have her and her baby move in with her in Dallas. Then in early October, six weeks before the assassination, Oswald returns to Dallas, takes a room at a boarding house and gets a job in a building positioned directly along what will be President Kennedy's motorcade route. And who do you think helped him get that job?

[Soledad O'Brien]

Ruth Payne.

[Rob Reiner]

Ruth Payne.

[Soledad O'Brien]

There are so many pieces to this.

[Rob Reiner]

Picture and 60 years later, pieces are still falling into place. To have a murder as gruesome as Jake Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about.

[Dick Russell]

It, the more I'm scratching my head.

[Rob Reiner]

Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere. It's sickening. If you step somebody that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change of clothes? She found out she was pregnant in jail. She wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare Enter Tales from the Shadows presented by I Heart and Sonoro. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shape shifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast over wherever you get your podcast.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So, Rob, where do you go from here? Nearly 5,000 records remain withheld. Do you think that in those records is one piece of evidence that details the whole plot?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, I don't. I really, I don't.

[Dick Russell]

The CIA most likely destroyed anything that would be obviously groundbreaking decades ago.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So then what you're both saying is that in all the remaining records there is no smoking gun.

[Rob Reiner]

I don't think there's anything left that would be considered a smoking gun. The way we think of it. The closest thing we have to a smoking gun is a document that the Pentagon kept secret for almost 40 years. This document outlined a plan called Operation Northwoods.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The Joint Chiefs of Staff drafted operation Northwoods in 1962. It remained a secret until decades later when it was quietly declassified in compliance with the JFK Records Act. But even after the document was declassified, the plan didn't reach the public until 2001, when the investigative reporter James Bamford revealed the full details in his book Body of Secrets. He calls Operation Northwoods, quote what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the US Government. Here's Jefferson Morley.

[Jefferson Morley]

Operation Northwoods is one of the most significant revelations about the JFK assassination to come out in the last 25 years.

[Rob Reiner]

Operation Northwoods posed this. What if something were to happen that would convince the American public that the US had to invade Cuba? Something that would force America's hand.

[Jefferson Morley]

We'll stage a violent incident on a prominent target in the United States and we'll arrange for it to look like Castro did it. Northwoods was what people in the intelligence business call a pretext operation, where you create a pretext for an action or sometimes called a false flag operation.

[Rob Reiner]

When you hear the terms false flag or conspiracy theory, you think of people wearing tinfoil hats. But the US government has had a history of false flag operations. In 1898, the sinking of the USS Maine got us into the Spanish American War.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The USS Maine was a US battleship that mysteriously exploded in Havana, Cuba in 1898. Remember, the Maine was the famous rallying cry after the press claimed that Spain was to blame for the explosion, but which killed 268 sailors. When the government declared war on Spain, they had the overwhelming support from the American public. And that's how the Spanish American War started.

[Rob Reiner]

There was also the firing on U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin in August of 1964, which got us into the Vietnam War. And in 2003, the assertion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. False flags and disinformation can be very effective tools to rally public support. This is in the actual Operation Northwoods document.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Here's what it says. The Joint Chiefs of Staff have considered the attached memorandum for pretexts which would provide justification for US Military intervention in Cuba.

[Jefferson Morley]

The Northwoods plans were very detailed. We'll fake the hijacking of a plane and we'll take the plane somewhere and we'll say that Castro did it.

[Rob Reiner]

Understand? People who would die on that plane would be American citizens.

[Dick Russell]

This phrase is actually written into the Northwoods plan. Quote, casualty lists in the US Newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Basically killing American citizens. That's astounding.

[Rob Reiner]

A hijacked plane wasn't the only option. Operation Northwoods lists 11 other ideas for, quote, well, coordinated incidents that would look credible, including sinking ships and burning aircrafts. There's one more part that I'd like you to read.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Okay, here's what it says. The desired result from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

[Rob Reiner]

Operation Northwoods was kept hidden from the Warren Commission and the House Select Committee. It was only declassified in 1997.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Did Kennedy know about Operation Northwoods?

[Rob Reiner]

Kennedy knew about it.

[Soledad O'Brien]

What was Kennedy's response?

[Jefferson Morley]

He rejected it in pretty brusque, almost rude terms.

[Rob Reiner]

But on November 22, 1963, a spectacular attack on a US target occurred and the immediate response was to blame Cuba. November 22, the day President Kennedy was murdered.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So you're saying the plan that President Kennedy rejected was the plan they used to kill him?

[Rob Reiner]

Right. It was a violent act against a prominent American target. And they had their allegedly pro Castro assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald to take the blame.

[Jefferson Morley]

And so that's what happens. Within hours of Kennedy's assassination, Oswald is arrested and CIA propaganda assets go to work to link him immediately to the Castro government. And those efforts are quite successful. We have the headlines the next day. Pro Castro marksman kills the President.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Pro Cuban assassin Robert Blakey, former chief counsel and staff director of the House Select Committee on Assassinations told us something similar.

[Danny Trehov]

If what happened is what I think happened, I think that Lee Harvey Oswald was developed as a false flag assassin.

[Soledad O'Brien]

On the next episode of who Killed jfk?

[Rob Reiner]

President Kennedy had alienated much of the US establishment by the time he was killed in Dallas.

[Soledad O'Brien]

We look directly at our three main suspects.

[Danny Trehov]

That Miami CIA field office is more.

[Dick Russell]

Or less the puppeteers of this whole operation. I asked my mom, where's Papa?

[Jon Stewart]

And she said, he's in Dallas on business.

[Danny Trehov]

I'm telling you, there's no way in.

[Officer Bundren]

Hell that it could not have been a conspiracy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Soledad O'Brien and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinero. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfine and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero and Marcus Dilaudo. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is Emilse Quiros. Mixing mastering and sound design by Ben Lahoulier. Research and fact checking by Girl Friday and Emilse Kiel. Archival audio in this episode thanks to the Assassination Archives and Research center and Dick Russell Business affairs by Hernan Naraya and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Rosanne Gallagini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and 4th Street Recording Studio. Show Logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arce and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite, favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK? As a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions and I Heart Podcasts. To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon.

[Jefferson Morley]

Never made sense.

[Rob Reiner]

Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trehov and Step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to Nocturnal on the I Heart Race radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Catch Jon Stewart back in action on the Daily show and in your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. From his hilarious satirical takes on today's politics and entertainment to the unique voices of correspondents and contributors, it's your perfect companion to stay on top of what's happening now. Plus, you'll get special content just for podcast listeners, like in depth interviews and a roundup of the week's top headlines. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.