The Patsy

Summary

Summary of "Who Killed JFK?" Episode: The Patsy

Release Date: November 29, 2023
Hosts: Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien
Podcast: Who Killed JFK? by iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In the episode titled "The Patsy," hosts Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien delve into the intricate layers surrounding the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. Commemorating the 60th anniversary of JFK’s tragic death, the episode explores the enduring mystery of who was responsible. Through interviews with CIA officials, journalists, eyewitnesses, and a former Secret Service agent, Reiner and O'Brien uncover groundbreaking evidence and challenge the long-held narratives presented by official investigations.

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The Warren Commission’s Narrative

Rob Reiner opens the discussion by critiquing the findings of the Warren Commission, which concluded that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President Kennedy. Reiner explains:

“The Warren Commission painted Oswald as a loner, a mentally ill Soviet empathizer, an ex Marine with an agenda.” [04:28]

The Commission’s assertion centered on the "single bullet theory," which posited that one bullet caused multiple wounds to both President Kennedy and Texas Governor John Connally. However, this theory was met with skepticism:

“The majority of the Parkland doctors who tended to Kennedy contradicted this. They said that the President's wounds were a result of shots that came from the front.” [04:12]

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Oswald: The "Patsy"

A pivotal concept introduced in the episode is the notion of Lee Harvey Oswald being a "patsy." Soledad O’Brien defines a patsy as:

“A person who's manipulated into a position that ultimately leaves them powerless.” [06:17]

This perspective challenges the lone gunman theory, suggesting that Oswald may have been used as a scapegoat by larger, more covert forces.

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Oswald’s Early Life and Psychological Profile

Delving into Oswald's background, journalist Dick Russell reveals:

“Oswald grew up in a broken home. He never knew his father who had died before he was born in 1939.” [06:50]

Oswald exhibited troubling behavior from a young age, including truancy and psychiatric issues. Dr. Renatus Hartogs, who studied Oswald, described him as having:

“A cold, detached outer attitude… a vivid fantasy life and turning around topics of omnipotence and power.” [08:23]

Hartogs diagnosed Oswald with:

“Personality pattern disturbance, schizoid features, and passive-aggressive tendencies.” [08:23]

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Oswald’s Military Service and CIA Connections

Oswald enlisted in the Marines, seeking to serve his country despite his troubled past. Assigned to the Atsugi Naval Air Base in Japan, Oswald was positioned at the heart of Cold War espionage activities. While serving as a radar operator for the U2 spy planes, Oswald frequented the exclusive Queen Bee nightclub—an unusual setting for a Marine of his rank:

“Oswald was earning less than $85 a month… he didn't have any of the money to do that.” [13:07]

Russell uncovers connections between Oswald and CIA operations, suggesting that Oswald might have been part of the CIA's MKUltra program, which aimed to explore mind control techniques:

“MKUltra is a code name for an illegal human experimentation program designed by the CIA… they gave LSD to the subjects without their consent.” [10:06]

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Defection to the Soviet Union

In 1959, Oswald attempted to defect to the Soviet Union. His journey was meticulously orchestrated, suggesting CIA involvement:

“The CIA was trying to gain an advantage against the Soviets. They wanted to have a group of young men under their control to be thought of as red.” [17:02]

Upon arriving in Moscow, Oswald’s defection appeared genuine, but inconsistencies emerged. His subsequent behavior raised suspicions among Soviet officials, leading to a staged suicide attempt to secure his stay in the USSR:

“He fakes his suicide in order to force the Soviets to keep him there.” [29:33]

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CIA Surveillance and Manipulation

Back in the United States, the CIA maintained a detailed file on Oswald, monitoring his every move. Dick Russell highlights the extent of this surveillance:

“All of his communications through the State Department were immediately passed to the CIA, the FBI, and J. Edgar Hoover.” [28:27]

Despite these extensive records, the CIA denied any direct involvement with Oswald until revelations in the 1970s brought the information to light. The manipulation extended to discrediting individuals like CIA officer James Wilcott, who testified about Oswald's connections:

“The CIA immediately denied Wilcott's accusation. And after his testimony, Wilcott was put under surveillance and harassed.” [24:10]

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Oswald’s Return and Final Months

After a year in the Soviet Union, Oswald returned to the United States with his Russian wife, Marina. The ease of his return raised further questions:

“He came home to the US with great ease. He was not molested by any authorities when he came here.” [35:25]

Oswald secured a loan from the State Department to finance his return and was quickly employed at the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas—a position that ultimately placed him at the center of the assassination plot.

Russell posits that Oswald's return was part of a larger CIA operation to manipulate public perception:

“Having information about the United States' top secret spy plane establishes him as a potential high-value asset to the KGB. Combine that with his knowledge of Russian and his Marxist leanings...” [18:20]

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The "Wilderness of Mirrors" and Sheep Dipping

The term "wilderness of mirrors" refers to the complex web of deception surrounding intelligence operations. The episode explores the concept of "sheep dipping," where individuals like Oswald are inserted into covert operations without their full awareness:

“Sheep dipping means somebody who is inserted into an operation to make it look like they're part of it, but they may not even know quite what's happened to them.” [37:48]

This technique could explain Oswald’s seemingly erratic behavior and ultimate role as the alleged assassin.

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Conclusion and Implications

"The Patsy" challenges the traditional narrative of Lee Harvey Oswald as a lone gunman by presenting evidence of his potential manipulation by intelligence agencies. The convergence of CIA surveillance, Oswald's inexplicable ease of movement between the USSR and USA, and his sudden employment at the Texas School Book Depository suggest a more complex plot behind JFK’s assassination.

Reiner and O’Brien emphasize the importance of reevaluating historical narratives to uncover deeper truths:

“If you don't learn who Lee Harvey Oswald really was, there's no way you can understand what happened on that day.” [06:37]

The episode underscores the enduring significance of the JFK assassination in shaping American history and the necessity of continued investigation to achieve true justice and understanding.

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Notable Quotes

• Dick Russell:
  “Oswald grew up in a broken home.” [06:50]
  “The CIA was trying to gain an advantage against the Soviets.” [17:02]
  “He was a false defector.” [22:53]

• Soledad O’Brien:
  “I want to understand more about who Oswald was, his childhood, what motivated him.” [06:37]
  “Nobody has gotten justice yet, and that's what I wish people would understand.” [20:06]

• Rob Reiner:
  “You've never found a weapon. Never made sense. Still doesn't make sense.” [00:04]
  “This is a pivotal moment.” [26:19]
  “What the hell is going on?” [36:10]

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Implications for Future Episodes

The episode sets the stage for deeper exploration in subsequent installments, promising revelations about the "wilderness of mirrors" and the covert operations that may have influenced Oswald’s actions. The hosts aim to peel back the layers of deception to present a more nuanced understanding of the factors leading to JFK’s assassination.

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Note: This summary excludes promotional segments and advertisements interspersed within the transcript, focusing solely on the core content related to the JFK assassination investigation.

Transcript

[Rob Reiner]

To have a murder as gruesome as Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, never made sense.

[Danny Trehov]

Still doesn't make sense.

[Rob Reiner]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me Danny Trehov and Step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

On October 21, 1959, four years before the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, an ex Marine by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald sat alone in a hotel room in Moscow, the heart of the Soviet Union. Just weeks shy of his 20th birthday, Oswald was attempting to renounce his American citizenship and defect to the Soviet Union. After a few days of waiting, he finally received a letter informing him that his request had been denied. A Soviet official was on the way to escort him out of the country. Disturbed by the news, Oswald made a decision. He walked into the bathroom, ran himself a bath. As steam filled the room, he got into the tub, grabbed a razor, and proceeded to carefully cut into his wrist. As the bathwater turned red, Oswald closed his eyes and waited.

[Soledad O'Brien]

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledad O'Brien.

[Rob Reiner]

In the last episode, we heard about how the Warren Commission had manipulated evidence in order to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. Since they claimed that only three shots were fired from behind and one had missed. That left two shots. The third shot was the fatal shot to the President's head. The second shot came to be known as the single bullet theory. The Warren Commission claimed that this magic bullet entered the President's back, went up and out his throat, then hit Connolly in his armpit, then his ribs, then his wrist and then his thigh. The majority of the Parkland doctors who tended to Kennedy contradicted this. They said that the President's wounds were a result of shots that came from the front, which clearly points to shooters in locations other than the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. And that would mean that whatever Lee Harvey Oswald was doing that day, he wasn't doing it alone.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Regardless, the record shows that on September 24, 1964, the Warren Commission presented their evidence and formally named Lee Harvey Oswald the Lone Gunman. Which is the story that persists today.

[Rob Reiner]

Right. The Commission painted Oswald as a loner, a mentally ill Soviet empathizer, an ex Marine with an agenda. Even before the Warren Commission Report was released, the public was fed a steady diet of press stories about Oswald, the deranged lone gunman.

[Dick Russell]

Less than 48 hours after the shooting, Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade boasted that he had, quote, sent men to the electric chair with less evidence. He went even further to say the following about Oswald. Quote, I would say that without any doubt, he is the killer. There is no question that he was the killer of President Kennedy. And then on December 10, less than three weeks after the murder, the New York Times headline read, quote, oswald, Assassin Beyond a Doubt, FBI concludes.

[Soledad O'Brien]

And here's where I think it's important to dig into this historic moment. The only other murder of a President that carries a similar historic weight is the murder of President Lincoln almost 100 years earlier. But with Lincoln, there were no TV cameras covering moment to moment updates like there were in the Kennedy assassination. There were no kids like Rob Reiner who were sent home from school and then sat glued to their TVs to watch the whole thing unfold. The public wanted answers. And in that vacuum, a story began to unfold.

[Rob Reiner]

And it wasn't until years later, after a great deal of investigating, that a much different story would unfold. And that story starts with the words of Lee Harvey Oswald, I'm just a patsy, President. I'm just a.

[Soledad O'Brien]

A patsy is a guy who takes the fall for somebody else's scheme. A person who's manipulated into a position that ultimately leaves them powerless.

[Rob Reiner]

If you don't learn who Lee Harvey Oswald really was, there's no way you can Understand what happened on that day.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I'd like to understand more about who Oswald was, his childhood, what motivated him. Kind of like I guess I'm asking for pop culture. Psych 101 on Oswald.

[Dick Russell]

Oswald grew up in a broken home.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Dick Russell.

[Dick Russell]

He never knew his father who had died before he was born in 1939. His mother Marguerite placed him at a very young age in New Orleans with his two older brothers. And so he spent time in foster care when he was very young.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Did he stay in New Orleans his entire childhood?

[Dick Russell]

He ends up kind of bouncing around with his mother between various places. And when he's 13 years old they moved to New York City. Well, according to the official Warren Commission record, he stayed away from school and there were truancy charges that came up against him. So in the spring of 1953 he was remanded to a place called the Youth House in New York for psychiatric observation. And the chief psychiatrist there was a man who would later testify before the Warren Commission. His name was Dr. Renatus Hartogs. Hello, Dr. Hartoggs? Yes. Yes, this is Dick Russell. I'm the writer who called you the other day. So tell me what's on your mind. Okay. I'm as I said, doing some research into to the Warren Commission. Hartog said Oswald had a cold, detached outer attitude and viewed his life in sort of a non participating fashion. He had a vivid fantasy life and turning around topics of omnipotence and power. So Hartogg said he had diagnosed the teenage Oswald as a kid with personality pattern disturbance, schizoid features and passive aggressive tendencies.

[Rob Reiner]

Hartog's testified that Oswald's psyche was so abnormal that he wanted to continue to examine him. And he did. So he placed the teenage Oswald in a three week study. And here you have the beginning of a narrative that starts to develop.

[Dick Russell]

But that narrative and really everything we hear from Hartoggs has to be understood through the lens of who Hartogs actually was. So let's look deeper into his past and the people he associated with. Today is my 86th birthday, so today is Happy birthday. I'm an old man, so. See I'd also heard that you didn't you work in the 50s with Dr. Malitz? Doctor who? Sidney Malitz. No, I didn't. No, the name sounds familiar to me. But he worked at Columbia Presbyterian.

[Rob Reiner]

Oh no, no.

[Dick Russell]

Really not. Okay. All right. What Hartogs was telling me was not true. Sidney Mallets, who was a professor of psychology at the time was under contract for the CIA and evidence shows that Hartoggs worked closely with Dr. Mallets on a hypnosis program that was highly classified. Hartoggs would tell the commission that he found Oswald's personality so intriguing that he chose him for a seminar subject.

[Soledad O'Brien]

What do you mean by that?

[Dick Russell]

The CIA was working with troubled kids. Finding troubled kids in various places and grooming them in different ways. And they would track them over the years to see if at some point they might be useful. Not too long before he died, I had a long interview with Sidney Gottlieb who ran the CIA's Technical Services Division from the early 50s into the 1970s. He told me about how the government experimented with LSD after it was introduced to the States in 1948. So practically nothing known about it at this time. We decided, a group of people and myself, that we needed simply to find out a lot about this material in a hurry. And that's what led to MKUltra. MKUltra is a code name for an illegal human experimentation program designed by the CIA. The goal was to find a way to control the human mind. And they were experimenting also with so called brainwashing. Of course, like most government programs it took off and it got going, you know, and then it was hard to stop it. They gave LSD to the subjects without their consent, along with electroshocks, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse and other forms of torture. I used to muse a lot about boy, this is the only place you can do illegal things legally. In a way, isn't this great? And you got the whole blessings of this powerful government.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So are you saying you think Lee Harvey Oswald might have been part of the MK Ultra program?

[Dick Russell]

There's no way to know for certain, but it seems this was the backdrop against which Oswald and other young people were cultivated.

[Rob Reiner]

What we know for sure is that Oswald had a troubled past. And after being studied by Dr. Hartogs at age 16, he tried to enlist in the Marines. He wanted to serve his country. He was turned down. And then the next year he tried again. And this time he got in.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Where's he sent first?

[Dick Russell]

September of 1957. He's assigned to the Atsugi Naval Air Base just outside Tokyo. In the years after World War II, Japan became ground zero for Cold War espionage and Atsugi was the American base in the area. It was a hotbed of activity. There were a number of intelligence groups operating out of Tokyo, including the CIA and a group known as Field Operations Intelligence, or FOI. I'll get into FOI later. Atsugi is where U2 spy planes were stationed to fly secret missions over the Soviet Union. Oswald became a radar operator and would certainly have been privy to the fact that these U2 planes were flying out of Atsugi and going on these missions.

[Rob Reiner]

Yeah, and even though he's just a radar operator, you know, kind of a low level guy, Oswald is hanging out at a place called the Queen Bee, which is one of the most expensive, exclusive nightclubs in Tokyo.

[Dick Russell]

Oswald was earning less than $85 a month in take home pay. And typically you'd go to the Queen Bee and it would cost you $65 to $100 for the night. Oswald, he didn't have any of the money to do that. I mean, it was, it was basically a night spa that catered to pilots, including U2 officers, not Marine privates.

[Rob Reiner]

So you have this young Marine who didn't finish high school, this marriage oddball loner, hanging out at an exclusive officers club. What is he doing there?

[Soledad O'Brien]

What was he doing there?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, one night he's having a good time. He's spending time with a beautiful Japanese woman when he is spotted by an intelligence officer named Richard Case Nagel, someone that we're going to hear a lot about throughout the podcast.

[Dick Russell]

I interviewed Nagel throughout the 1970s, 80s and 90s, and I eventually wrote a book about him called the man who Knew Too Much. For now, all you need to know is that in the late 50s, he was working for an intelligence group called Field Operations Intelligence operating out of Tokyo. Nagel told me that both he and Oswald later became part of an operation that tried to convince a Soviet colonel named Nikolai Eroshkin to defect to the United States. It was an intelligence priority to try to get high level Soviets to defect, and Oswald was part of this.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Were they successful?

[Dick Russell]

No. But Oswald was doing more than just trying to meet women at the Queen Bee. His odd tenure in the Marines was just getting started.

[Rob Reiner]

After Otsugi, didn't he go back to the United States for a little while?

[Dick Russell]

He goes home shortly before Christmas in 1958, and he spends a month leave with his mother. And then he reports to Marine Air Control Squadron Number nine in Santa Ana, California. The Marines who served with him there said that they often called him Comrade Oswaldkovich because he would, you know, start talking about the wonders of Karl Marx. Another Marine who was stationed with him, a guy named David Bucknell, said that Oswald told him he was going to be discharged and he was going to Russia to go to work on an assignment for American intelligence.

[Rob Reiner]

And then there's Tosh Plumlee.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Tosh Plumlee worked for the US army and military intelligence in the 1950s. In the 60s, he became a CIA operative. He was a mercenary pilot.

[Tosh Plumlee]

1959 was the beginning of Nagshead, North Carolina. That was propaganda training, special operations, illusionary warfare training. And the object there was training us to take over communication sites and spread propaganda.

[Rob Reiner]

Was that the first time you met Oswald?

[Tosh Plumlee]

Yeah, that's when I first run into Lee.

[Rob Reiner]

And at that point, you knew that you were an operative for the CIA?

[Tosh Plumlee]

I knew I was in Special Ops, but I wasn't sure I knew something. Something funny was going on. Of course, in those days, you got to take into account that we figured whatever the government told us and whatever military told us and whatever was printed in the media was gospel truth.

[Rob Reiner]

Was Oswald part of that?

[Tosh Plumlee]

I was under the impression that Lee, he was an operative and he was being trained for a specific operation. I was under the impression at that point that this man, this kid that I met my age, was part of the old, original recruitment of young teenagers getting in trouble.

[Dick Russell]

Now, it wasn't only Plumlee who said this, Victor Marchetti, who was a CIA official, who then wrote a very well known book in the 1970s that exposed a lot of things the CIA didn't want out.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The book is called the CIA and the Cult of Intelligence. It refers to itself as, quote, the first book the US Government ever went to court to censor before publication.

[Rob Reiner]

The program in North Carolina was designed to leave the impression that these young, troubled men had become communist sympathizers, to make them appear to be disenchanted with the American system.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Marchetti's book alleges that in 1959, the US was struggling to get information out of the Soviet Union. So they ran this operation out of Nag's head on about 40 young men.

[Rob Reiner]

The CIA was trying to gain an. An advantage against the Soviets. They wanted to have a group of young men under their control to be thought of as red. So they cultivated these young men to look like legitimate Communist sympathizers for potential use in covert operations. And Lee Harvey Oswald was there primarily.

[Tosh Plumlee]

He was recruited, I think, at that point in time to be a defector, disgruntled person to go to Russia. And I think that U2 assignment was a cover in order to get him into Russia.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So two different people who knew him in the Marines say the same thing, that Oswald was preparing to defect to the USSR as a fake defector. So how exactly does the U2 assignment factor into that?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, having information about the United States top secret spy plane establishes him as a potential high value asset to the kgb. Now you combine that with the fact that he's learning Russian, he's preaching Marx, and he appears to be unhappy with America.

[Dick Russell]

Oswald then requests a dependency discharge to take care of his mother, where they grant the discharge to him three months ahead of when he's scheduled to be released from the Marines.

[Rob Reiner]

And what does he do on the day he's discharged from the Marines? Does he go to take care of his mother? No, he picks up a new passport.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So he's about to go to Russia.

[Rob Reiner]

Yes, ma'am. To have a murder as gruesome as Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about.

[Dick Russell]

It, the more I'm scratching my head. Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere. It's sickening. If you stab somebody that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change of clothes? She found out she was pregnant in jail. She wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare Enter Tale from the Shadows presented by by iheart and Sonoro. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shape shifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

[Dick Russell]

Take.

[Danny Trehov]

A trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturno Tales from the Shadows as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Rob Reiner]

On September 10, 1959, Oswald sails from New Orleans to London. And then he catches a flight from London to Helsinki, Finland. After waiting five days for his passport to arrive, he takes a train from Finland to Moscow.

[Dick Russell]

When oswald leaves the U.S. he's got a bank account that has a little more than $200 in. The trip is going to cost at least $1,500.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So is the assumption here that US intelligence is actually secretly footing the bill?

[Rob Reiner]

Not only footing the bill, but guiding him on where to go, how to cross the border. And he seemed to know exactly what route to take.

[Soledad O'Brien]

According to people like David Talbot, all of this starts to paint a clear picture.

[Rob Reiner]

He was inserted, I believe, as a spy.

[Dick Russell]

He was a false defector.

[Rob Reiner]

There's actual proof that Oswald was a spy.

[Dick Russell]

You were told by people in the Tokyo station that Oswald had been sent to Russia on a CIA mission. That's right. When I first heard this, I didn't really believe it. And then I started getting curious. In 1976, I interviewed CIA officer James Wilcott. At the time Oswald was there, he worked in the finance department of the CIA. Stationed in Tokyo, he issued checks to secret agents, although they were all listed under code names. Under oath, he told the House Select Committee on Assassinations that he was aware that Oswald was a paid agent for the CIA. I had paid out funds for Oswald.

[Rob Reiner]

Over some period of time for the Oswald project.

[Tosh Plumlee]

And the story I got was that.

[Dick Russell]

He was sent to the Soviet Union.

[Tosh Plumlee]

As a double agent.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So there are Marines saying Oswald told them he was going to be a fake defector. And now a CIA accountant saying he actually paid Oswald. If Oswald was employed by the CIA, something they denied for decades, how was that not headline news?

[Tosh Plumlee]

The New York Times really, really distorted.

[Dick Russell]

And warped my testimony that I gave before the House Elect Committee.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The New York Times says that there are, quote, several discrepancies in the recollections of Mr. Wilcott. It describes Wilcott as, quote, support staff, a low level worker. It says he cracked Oswald's codename as a result of hearsay at the agency months after the assassination. It is a brutal write up.

[Rob Reiner]

The CIA immediately denied Wilcott's accusation. And after his testimony, Wilcott was put under surveillance and harassed. His tires were slashed. Sugar was poured into his gas tank. He got a new job and then his new employer fired him because even he was getting harassed. All to discredit him.

[Dick Russell]

The CIA has been doing this kind of stuff for years. People like James Angleton made their way up the CIA organizational chart by mastering the art of disinformation. So discrediting Wilcott was just another flavor of the same manipulation that they used on Oswald. He was just what he said he was, a patsy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So what's Oswald's first move when he gets to Russia?

[Dick Russell]

He goes into the American Embassy and he throws down his passport and he says, I want to dissolve my American citizenship. So he's directed to a man named Richard Snyder who is a consular official in the embassy who used to work for the CIA.

[Rob Reiner]

Snyder testified to the Warren Commission that something was off about Oswald.

[Dick Russell]

Oswald hands Snyder a note affirming that his allegiance is to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

[Rob Reiner]

Then Oswald makes this very public proclamation that he wanted to defect and that he had top secret information about the U2 spy plane to offer to the Soviets. And Snyder says, and this is a quote, he would make available to the Soviet Union such knowledge as he had acquired while in the Marine Corps concerning his specialty.

[Dick Russell]

Snyder said that quote, this was part of a scene he had rehearsed before coming into the embassy. It was a pre planned speech. And it wasn't just Snyder who thought it was weird. There was another official there named John McVicker who testified to the Warren Commission that he thought Oswald was following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by a person or persons unknown.

[Rob Reiner]

This is a pivotal moment. One of the first things the American public was told about Oswald was after the assassination was that he was an ex Marine that had defected to the Soviet Union. It was a huge part of the narrative. The Warren Commission said that Oswald defected to the Soviet Union because he was a troubled young man. They never reported the fact that the CIA had a program to cultivate fake defectors. This wasn't known until the Church Committee revealed it in the mid-70s. So you have two competing narratives. One, Oswald was interested in becoming a Soviet citizen, was willing to betray America and become a traitor. Or two, he was instructed by the CIA as part of an intelligence operation.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I want to know how the embassy officials, Snyder and MacVicar respond to Oswald.

[Dick Russell]

Snyder tries to talk Oswald out of renouncing his citizenship. And then he sends a confidential telegram to the State Department which is forwarded to the CIA.

[Rob Reiner]

You see, Oswald knows that US Intelligence is going to be made aware if he starts offering secrets and speaking out loud like this to the Soviets, he's putting on a show.

[Dick Russell]

Those reports reached Angleton's office in early November 1959.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Jefferson Morley again, creator of jfkfacts.org.

[Dick Russell]

Angleton opens the CIA's first file on Oswald. He was of interest to the highest counterintelligence officer in the CIA for four years before President Kennedy was killed.

[Rob Reiner]

Did they track all of his movements during that period? Yes, they did.

[Dick Russell]

All of his communications through the State Department were immediately passed to the CIA, the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover had an interest in Oswald. All of their paperwork on Oswald was forwarded to Angleton's people. The CIA had this pretty thick file on Oswald. This is a fact that the CIA would spend decades denying. It was only in 1976 when one of Angleton's staff members revealed to the House committee that she was instructed to open a file on Oswald.

[Rob Reiner]

They were watching him for four years before the assassination. And there can only be two reasons for this. Either he was in the Soviet Union on a mission or he was a bonafide defector that had offered to give the Soviet top secret information.

[Dick Russell]

Obviously the Russians suspect something is going on with this guy. The Russian authorities tell him you, your visa has expired and you've got to leave Moscow right away.

[Rob Reiner]

So what does he do? He goes into his hotel room and he fakes a suicide attempt and creates an incident.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You think he faked his suicide in order to force the Soviets to keep him there?

[Rob Reiner]

I do. He's a low level Marine on assignment and he just failed. He's got to do something drastic in order to stay in the country.

[Dick Russell]

They rush him into a psychiatric hospital for observation and he stays there for a week. I was told that the KGB thought that he fit the profile for psychologically conditioned agents. They decided to study him further so he didn't have to leave.

[Rob Reiner]

And they say, all right, you can stay and we'll just keep an eye on you. Because they don't want this international incident to be on their watch.

[Dick Russell]

And then he drops out of sight in December and nobody in the US hears from him for over a year.

[Rob Reiner]

Which starts to raise concerns. For a certain person to have a murderer as gruesome as Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Down here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about.

[Dick Russell]

It the more I'm scratching my head something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere. It's sickening. If you stab somebody that many times, you have Blood splatter was to change clothes. She found out she was pregnant in jail. She wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet, and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Ed Podcast the Daily Show Podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare enter Nocturnal Tale from the Shadows presented by Iheart and Sonoru. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shape shifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures. Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Dick Russell]

Oswald's mother Marguerite goes to see Dean Rusk. The Secretary of State in the US Somehow gets in to see him. This is all on record too, and shouts that her son was a government agent and how come she hasn't heard from him in almost a year?

[Soledad O'Brien]

How does Oswald's mom just get in to see Dean Rusk?

[Dick Russell]

Like I've wondered that too.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who gets access to Rusk like that? Does Rusk do anything? Does Oswald know about this?

[Dick Russell]

Word gets back to him somehow in the Soviet Union that mom is worried about it. Two days later, Oswald writes her a letter.

[Rob Reiner]

As it turns out, he was living pretty comfortably in the Soviet Union for the last year, by communist standards.

[Dick Russell]

Anyway, they send him to Minsk A whole different part of the Soviet Union where he's greeted by the mayor personally and they promise him a free apartment while he works at a radio TV factory where he earns as much money as the director.

[Rob Reiner]

In Minsk, he meets a teenager named Marina. Her uncle is a colonel in the Ministry of Internal affairs, which is basically the Soviet version of the FBI. They work closely with the kgb.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So wait a minute. Her uncle is a colonel in their FBI? That's the girl that Oswald just happens to meet.

[Dick Russell]

He meets Marina at this dance. He introduces himself as Alec. She thinks he's a Russian citizen because he speaks Russian so well.

[Rob Reiner]

It is suspected that Marina's uncle encouraged her to go to the dance that night.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Here's journalist David Talbott again.

[Rob Reiner]

That was basically an espionage operation. It was a way to keep tabs on him.

[Dick Russell]

So I think the Soviet authorities were.

[Rob Reiner]

Onto him right away and watch him very carefully.

[Dick Russell]

After only a few weeks of knowing Marina, he proposes to her.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So now Oswald finds himself married into the network of the kgb.

[Rob Reiner]

And all while the CIA is watching him.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So with all these interests converging on him, this guy's got some baggage.

[Rob Reiner]

Which is why his next move is pretty shocking.

[Dick Russell]

He writes to the American Embassy asking for arrangements to be made for him to return to the United States with Marina.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Isn't it weird that he's coming back to the U.S. given that he defected and denounced the U.S. i asked David Talbot. So what happened when he left the Soviet Union?

[Rob Reiner]

He came home to the US with great ease. He was not molested by any authorities when he came here.

[Dick Russell]

In fact, he was given a loan.

[Rob Reiner]

By the State Department to come back from Russia.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Wait, they gave him money?

[Rob Reiner]

The INS even offered Marina an exemption from the standard immigration quotas. So she came with him, along with their baby daughter, June.

[Dick Russell]

They never asked him anything about, you know, what, what he might have been involved in over there, or did he give secrets away? What about the U2? None of these things came up. Anyone who claimed to be a defector said he was going to give military secrets to the Soviet Union at the.

[Rob Reiner]

Height of the Cold War would have been clamped in irons unless they knew he was an espionage age.

[Soledad O'Brien]

All right, so, Rob, I'm going to need you to speak very slowly and very clearly. What the hell is going on?

[Rob Reiner]

I'll try to make it as simple as I can. First, as a misfit kid, he's welcomed into the Marines. And then he's shipped to Japan where he gets a security clearance to be a radar plane operator on the U2 spy plane. He learns Russian, he defects to Russia. Then, after two years, he returns to the US with his Russian wife and is welcomed with open arms. The obvious explanation? This is all done on behalf of.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The CIA, and in less than 18 months of his return to the United States, he'll take a job at the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas, Texas.

[Rob Reiner]

Right. But a lot would happen in those 18 months.

[Soledad O'Brien]

On the next episode of who Killed JFK? We uncover secrets in a place known as the wilderness of mirrors. What does sheep dipping mean?

[Dick Russell]

It's somebody who is inserted into an operation to make it look like they're part of it, but they may not even know quite what's happened to them.

[Soledad O'Brien]

We follow Oswald through the eyes of those who are watching him. Like Richard K. Snagle.

[Dick Russell]

He tried to warn Oswald that he was being used, that people he thinks are his friends are not.

[Tosh Plumlee]

By sheer accident, he stumbled on the fact that there was an assassination seriously planned.

[Danny Trehov]

And because of that knowledge, he was in jeopardy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Soledad O'Brien and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinhetto. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfine and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero and Marcus Dilaudo. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Archival Audio in this episode, thanks to Getty Images, Dick Russell and Rob Reiner. Our associate producer is Emilse Quiros. Mixing, mastering and sound design by Ben Lahoulier. Music by APM Research and fact checking by Girl Friday and Emilse Quiros. Business affairs by Hanan Nadea and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Rosanne Gallagini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and 4th Street Recording Studio. Show Logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistance by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Barron. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arce and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK? Is a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions and I heart Podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

To have a murder as gruesome as Jade Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon. Never made sense. Still doesn't make sense. She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who titted is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Drehoving and step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondence and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.