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WHOA That's Good Podcast
God, Guilt, and Growing Up Duggar | Sadie Robertson Huff & Jinger Duggar Vuolo
01:00:36
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- [00:00]
Sadie Robertson
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- [01:57]
Ginger Duggar Volo
That's okay. Volo.
- [01:58]
Sadie Robertson
Volo.
- [01:59]
Ginger Duggar Volo
A lot of people say it differently. It's Volo if you're proper Italian, but we don't say it properly. So we say Volo.
- [02:05]
Sadie Robertson
Wait, that's so cool. Both are cool. Volo is like yolo, but then VUOL is like, a little flare to it. Well, I love it. I really do listen to your podcast. Your podcast comes up on, like, my recommended YouTube all the time, and I'll listen to little clips here and there and then sometimes dive into the whole conversation. And, girl, you're just. You are so well spoken. It's so beautiful the way you live your life and share your family and your faith. And I'm just super grateful for an influence like you. So thank you for coming on this podcast. I really appreciate it.
- [02:38]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Well, thank you so much, Sadie. I've been encouraged by all that you do, and so thank you for continuing to fight the good fight in the public eye. I know that's not always easy.
- [02:46]
Sadie Robertson
Yes, I'm sure we'll talk about that. But before we kind of dive into the full podcast. And I hope my team prepped you with this question, because it's the question I ask everybody who comes on the podcast. If they didn't, then we can sit here for a minute and think about it. But, Ginger, what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
- [03:05]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Ooh. Okay. I'm gonna actually go to marriage advice that we were given because this has been the best thing for us. Right before we were married, one of Jer's friends said to us, they said, before you go to bed each night, ask each other if there's something on your heart or something that you wanna talk about. And so for anybody who's not married, go ahead and tuck that away for later because it has so helpful. There are so many times where you're just sitting there, you're tired, it's been a long day wrangling the kids, and we just slow down and say, is there anything on your heart? And it really opens up a deeper question. Not just like, how was your day? Oh, it's good, you know, and then that could stop there. But is there anything on your heart or anything that you want to talk about? And so that's been something that has been super helpful for us in everyday life.
- [03:55]
Sadie Robertson
Great. I. I love that so much. And it's so funny, because Christian and I had this conversation, this is, like, a couple months ago, and I don't even remember what sparked it. I think it was one of those days where I wanted him to ask me, like, are you okay? But instead of just saying what was on my mind, I was, like, waiting for him to ask, you know, which is so ridiculous. I should have just shared with him. And then finally, you know, you get frustrated because have you not noticed that I am like upset or whatever? And so anyways, we had this whole conversation. I think it would be really good if like every now and then you just ask me like, how's your heart? Like just like a check in on like how my heart is. And it was so cute the first time he did it because it's like such an unnatural, like this just how is your heart? Is an unnatural thing for him to say. He's like, hey babe. He's like, how is your heart? Like, made me laugh. But we ended up having like the best conversation. And it was. And I wasn't even expecting it that day. That was a great day. But it actually led us into like having that deeper conversation. To your point, it's an. It's different than just like, how's your day? It's like if there's anything on your heart, it really kind of leads you to more intentional thoughts and like what you're actually gonna share and how you're really doing. Cause it's not just like, oh yeah, this happened, this happened, this happened. But it's like, this is how I feel. And so that is great advice. I'm gonna start implementing that more in the day to day and not just the every now and then heart check ins. I love that.
- [05:21]
Ginger Duggar Volo
I love it.
- [05:22]
Sadie Robertson
I can't wait to get into a little bit about your marriage and how y' all met and everything. But first, let's throw it back a little bit because you and I had really childhoods and both of us were on a reality TV show when we were really young. And so can you tell me a little bit about what your childhood looked like and growing up in the spotlight?
- [05:45]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah, it's interesting. I thought the same thing coming on this podcast. I was like, I bet that we could actually relate to a ton of the challenges and joys of being raised on reality TV. And so yes, my family had a reality TV show from the age of when I was nine. It started all the way up until I was 27. So just like four years ago, the show ended. And all of those years, we just filmed anywhere from three to six days a week. And it was a long run of a show, but basically just following our lives and us getting married and then starting our own families. And so it was an interesting journey. Definitely not without challenge and struggle and a lot of trials that we faced in the public eye. But yeah, it was not anything that my parents ever expected to happen either. And so it's kind of fascinating how the Lord opened that door for our family.
- [06:45]
Sadie Robertson
Well, it's crazy because, like, when you have a reality show, you never really know what's going to hit. And I think that you kind of have this expectation when you start. It's like, oh, yeah, like, we'll do this. It'll be, you know, you think, like one, two seasons, and it'll be fun or whatnot. And then it's, you know, for both of our families, you didn't really realize what it was going to become. And like you said, like, there's so many joys in that. And obviously we're back on tv, so there are so many joys like we want to, but then there's also, like, so many. There's a lot of complexities to that, too. And Yalls life was super unique because I know you grew up very sheltered and kind of under specific viewpoints and stuff. And so you guys didn't even have TV right whenever it started. So y' all weren't really seeing it.
- [07:32]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah, we didn't. And it was interesting. We didn't really even have many TV shows that we would watch ever. And so whenever the idea was kind of thrown around, just saying, okay, like, we should start a reality show, there was somebody who had reached out to us, and first they wanted to do just a couple documentaries. And my parents, I remember they sat us down and they talked to us kids about it, and we prayed about it as a family and moved forward with those. And since they did so well, when the network came back asking for a reality show, we were like, what's a reality show? And we had never seen one before. And it was kind of interesting. We didn't see one until much further down the road. And so we didn't have cable TV in our house. We were very sheltered. We were raised in a setting where my parents taught us the true gospel. So I was very thankful for that. From an early age, I knew that that salvation was not by works that I needed to trust in Jesus for salvation. But beyond that, there were many things that we leaned heavily into. And so a lot of extra biblical rules, things that were not based in the Bible. We followed a teacher who basically, he claimed to speak for God but didn't. And so he would give you a list of principles to follow and said, if you do this, God is going to be pleased with you. But if you don't follow these principles, then your life is going to be one disaster after another. And so I would say that it was kind of interesting being in that public spotlight because there was a fascination with just the sheer size of my family because there were so many kids. I was raised in a family of 19 kids, and so that was just chaotic at times. And we had so much fun together. And so the show kind of just followed our lives, but also promoted the teachings of Bill Gothard, who was that teacher that we followed for so many years.
- [09:30]
Sadie Robertson
Wow. I think it's so cool. Like, this is going deep fast, really eight minutes in. And I wanna ask you this, but I wanna ask you this because I just think the way that you handle this is so beautiful that you're very clear that that's not the teaching that you believe is true anymore and that you've, like, changed your stance. And I want you to speak on that instead of me telling how you're. You didn't, like, throw away your faith with that. I think so many people, especially in today, like, there's so much deconstruction going on. And based off how people are raised, like, they feel really bitter towards church or they feel really bitter towards a teacher or really bitter towards that, and that's also made them feel bitter towards God, and they've, like, turned their life completely around. And what's so refreshing about your story is you're very clear on, like, my parents taught me the gospel, and then there was also this. And, like, we had a great childhood, but there was also this. And just the way that you're able to dissect the two and, like, take from the good and weed out the bad is really beautiful. Can you kind of talk a little bit about that process in your own heart and mind over the past years as you've stepped out of that. Hey.
- [10:43]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Hey.
- [10:43]
Christian Huff
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- [12:45]
Ginger Duggar Volo
It's been an interesting journey because it's not been easy at times. I remember for so many years just struggling with so much fear and how God viewed me. And that was something that I wrestled with for a long time and thinking, okay, I was taught that if I stepped outside of this box of these teachings, that God was going to smite me. That if I did anything slightly different than what I was raised in, that danger and danger was going to come my way, things were going to come upon me that I couldn't help but get out from underneath. And so those things kind of clouded my view of God. And I didn't view him as loving Heavenly Father. I viewed him as somebody who was constantly out to get Me for things that maybe I didn't even know I did wrong. And so there was a story that Bill Gothard would tell, and he said that it was like this lady, she had this pastor come to her home, and they were trying to figure out, okay, why did her husband and three sons die at sea? And so this pastor came in and said, well, I know you're so heartbroken, but if you just look on your wall, there's a picture of a sailboat. And if you see that, that picture there, that's the reason that they died, because there was a picture on your wall. And it was your fault because you shouldn't have had that up there. And so she was crushed, heartbroken. And he shared that as a positive story and saying, you just gotta watch out for everything. And so that makes you crippled with fear, thinking, okay, I don't know what God expects of me, and I'm living under superstition and fear instead of under freedom and peace and knowing what the scriptures say and what God does require of us. And so that kind of was the teachings. Those were the teachings that I was raised under. And at the same time, I would say, my parents did teach us that God was loving and kind. Heavenly Father. But those. The teachings of Bill Gothard quickly overclouded that and made it difficult for me to see up from down. And so my journey has been one of realizing, okay, there was this teacher who, like I said earlier, he claimed to speak for God, but he didn't. And so he would look at those things that he taught as gospel, and a lot of people would say he was a teacher and a prophet sent from God, so we should follow him. But when I started to stop and realize, okay, these teachings are not, in fact, based in the Bible. They are a man's opinion, and they're not true. It took me a long time to be able to come back to the word of God and say, well, what is true? Because often he would take one verse, twist it, and make it say whatever he wanted it to say. So when those verses were taken so out of context, so twisted, then I started to struggle to disentangle it. And as I use the word disentangle a lot, because a lot of people deconstruct, like you said, throw out everything, because they say, okay, I was sold. You know, I was sold this version of Christianity. That's just not true. So I'm gonna throw out the Bible, I'm gonna throw out God, because how could God allow me to walk through this and to grow up Believing this, and so they throw it all out. But realizing that no, God's word is true. And we know that there will be false teachers, we know that there will be people who say things that are not true. We need to be able to go back to the word of God and say, what does it actually say? Who is this written to? And go back and to say, okay, as painful and hard as it is, I'm not going to throw everything out and just tear my faith down to the studs, never to build it up again. That's what I see deconstruction as being. But to say I want to disentangle and to have this illustration that I've kind of given, it's really silly, but it kind of makes sense. Like, if you get gum stuck in your hair, you can totally go shave your head, take the gum out, be done with it. But there's another process you can go and the painstaking process of taking gum out of your hair. It's slow, it's painful, it's hard, but it's worth it. And I think that that's the process, that's the image of this disentangling that has taken place. So I think just opening the Bible for yourself and reading the Word of God has been the most freeing thing. And being in a good church that helps you to learn the Word has also. That's been super helpful for me.
- [17:11]
Sadie Robertson
It's great. I love that so much. That's a great analogy. And so funny because I have a little four year old who just started chewing gum. She loves gum. And I've been telling her, do not get that gum in your hair because it is so hard to get out. So I'm like, man, that really hits home right now. That's such a beautiful way of putting it. You know what's interesting is, like, whenever we open up the questions on Instagram, like, hey, what do y' all want us to talk about? What do you want us to dive a little deeper in? We have so many people say I struggle so much of feeling like God is mad at me or displeased with me, or how do I, like, get over this fear that God's disappointed in me? And I don't know to what context these people are asking from. Honestly, highly doubt most of them were under teaching like that. You know, I think it's just something that people feel, you know, that God is mad at them, disappointed in them. They have a lot of shame around it. They, like, haven't kind of broken free to really understand the magnitude of God's goodness and his mercy and his grace and his love. And so I want to ask you, like now as a believer, do you ever still have that fear and that feeling and how do you work through it now as opposed to how you did back in the day when you were truly living under fear?
- [18:26]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah, I think that because it was so ingrained in me, it definitely comes back up. And I can fall into that idea that performance based is going to be better for me. Like performance based mindset where I feel like even for my husband or for somebody who's close to me, if I don't keep everything together, then they're not going to love me. If I don't keep God happy with me, he's going to be displeased with me. So, like, if that's in spiritual disciplines, I think often in the church we see where people fall into that. They think, okay, if I just read my Bible for an hour every day, if I pray for an hour every day, then God's gonna be happy with me. And when I don't, then he's displeased with me. And I think that's where, as believers, we have to say, okay, those things are good. To want to pray, to want to read our Bible, we are called to do that as Christians. But what are we putting our faith in? Are we putting in the works that we do, or is it in trusting in Jesus? And so I think for me, it really starts in my thoughts, thoughts. It's in taking those thoughts captive. So whenever the enemy comes and tells me lies about Ginger, you need to be on your knees praying for this many hours a day. I mean, when I was young and I had time, that was such a sweet season. When you're single, when you don't have kids, when you're not waking up in the night, you can spend way more time in the Word and in devotions and prayer and evangelism, all the things that you love. But then when you realize, okay, there are seasons where, man, this is hard, I can't. I can't keep up the amount of time that I was pouring into these things. And I want to be filling my mind with the word of God, but it's not a legalistic rule. It's not. It's not something that I'm trying to fight and strive for in an unhealthy manner. That's where it's really humbling, because you do rely on the truth that you've really been able to stack up for all those years. There's been so much truth that the Lord has brought to mind in those moments when I'm up at 1am nursing or a kid has, you know, they're melting down in the grocery store, and I'm like, okay, Lord, give me patience right now, please. There are those short prayers that oftentimes I think the Lord, he hears those prayers and those cries. And I think that in the church, there's so much taught about the disciplines of the Christian life. But those can quickly become something that we rely on to say, okay, now I'm more holy because maybe I prayed for an hour today, but I think that for me, it comes back to my thoughts. So, okay, when those thoughts come up, I wanna say, lord, is this something that's from you? Am I neglecting these disciplines? Or is this just even where I need to lean into the grace of God? And I need to remember that I am a child of God, regardless of these spiritual disciplines being seen right now? And so that's something that has been a challenge. And it's not easy. Cause it comes back daily, I think. And there is a realization that I want to be in that place of being able to love, minister, serve, pour out. But there are also seasons where it's not gonna be as easy. And it doesn't change. The Lord's view of me as his child does not change.
- [21:43]
Sadie Robertson
It's so true, and it's so beautiful in marriage because you kind of see a picture of this. Like, you know, people always say, and it's so true. Like, your relationship with the Lord is a relationship. It's just like your relationship with someone else in the sense of, like, talk to him, communicate with him. And I think about that with my husband. Like, when we were dating, we would talk on the phone for hours. You know, like, four hours easy would just fly by at night. And it's just like, all giddy and fun and exciting. And you had the space and the time for that. And then, you know, you get married and you have so much time to go on dates all the time. And you're, like, doing all these intentional, fun things. And then you have kids, and it's so awesome. But it's a little different because you're both pouring in so much to your kids. You're so tired. Pregnancy can be such a doozy. And postpartum and all the different things with how your body feels. And, you know, the date nights aren't as often. And you're definitely not talking to the phone for four hours. And it might be like a quick Call here or there or, you know, going to bed at night and seeing each other for a minute and discussing how your heart is and that. But like my love for him now, my husband, is so much greater than it was when we were dating, you know, And I don't question his love for me or if he's disappointed in me because we didn't go on a date or we didn't have the time to talk like we used to because like we're doing life together, you know, we're. We're doing the day to day together. And I think about that with the Lord. Yeah, like there were seasons in singleness where it was just like dating, you know, just talking non stop. You're studying non stop. You're doing all these, these things. And then, you know, whenever you get married and you have kids, there, there is a little bit less of that time. Like the intentional time of like you're not getting up for hours in the morning to just read because you have kids to take care of in the morning and stuff. But it's like, don't think that your relationship is less than. Don't. It didn't. That doesn't mean it grew apart. Like, I love God so much more than I did even back in my singleness. Even though we don't, you know, do as much as back then, but we do all of life together. He's in every single part of my day. And so it's so cool when you visualize it like that. And I think that's when you start to understand, like the more the grace of God, the love of God, the relational aspect of God, that he really is in it all. And yeah, there's definitely correction in that. And there are moments where I'm like, oh man, I needed that holy spirit check in a little conviction moment, you know, not saying ignore those things, lean into those things too. But my husband taught me this a long time ago. I was so grateful for how he explained this to me because I would used to like beat myself up when I would feel convicted for something. He's like, Sadie, take conviction as a gift. Like that's God telling you that you can do better. Like you're so much better than that, you know, and it's God's grace that he's even convicting you to want to be better. And so like just not living in that shame mentality or that fear mentality because I'm like you, I go to fear a lot and just anxiety and so anyways, that relationship, definitely that view of that helps so much. And I'm just thankful for the ways that you've been so open about your story even. We're going to get into your book in just a little bit about people pleaser, which I'm like, lord, we all need that and even a little bit of becoming free. Indeed. But one thing I want to ask you because I know your husband was a big part of your story, of you really diving into the Word and kind of realizing that some of the teaching you were under wasn't necessarily aligned with Scripture. Can you tell me a little bit about how you and your husband met and dating him when he had a different, you know, theological viewpoint than you did at the time? Hey friends, let's talk about something that I truly love and believe in. An education that fits your life and your faith. Faith. So whether you're a student, a parent, or somewhere in between, Liberty University has something for your whole family. Liberty offers online programs from kindergarten all the way to a PhD which is super cool. Their K through 12 grade program, Liberty University Online Academy is a Christian online academy that's flexible, Bible based and still packed with real connection. Think student club, field trip, all the things. And if you're looking at college or grad school, Liberty's online programs let you learn at the pace that you love and that's flexible for you. There's no set login times and most classes are actually 100% online. I actually took a few online classes through Liberty and I loved how flexible it was and how faith centered they are. But if you want to get the full on campus experience, you got to check out college for a weekend you can actually visit this fall either September 18th through the 20th or November 6th through the 8th and try out classes, tour dorms, hit up dining halls and meet future classmates. It is the perfect way to see if Liberty is where God is calling you next. We have had tons of Liberty experience. My sister went to did the online high school and did online college and graduated from there. And then my brother John Luke and my brother Will actually went in person there and we just love it. I've also spoken at Convo a few times and just believe in it so much. 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- [27:12]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah. Oh, my goodness. It is crazy how God brings your spouse because sometimes that might be through an online Christian dating website. I just had a couple friends who told me about that. But Jeremy always makes the joke that we met on farmersonly.com and that's not true. We actually. It was fascinating. We met through my brother in law, Ben. He actually introduced us. But before that, how Jeremy met Ben was like a whole thing. And it involved a guy on Facebook. There was this, like, random page that my brother in law followed, and he, like, would follow this guy who had all these encouraging posts about scripture and all these things. So anyhow, my brother in law was in San Antonio to meet up with somebody, and he said, hey, I would love to connect with this guy on Facebook. And so he messaged the guy and he said, okay, we're having this fellowship. Come to this fellowship, and there's a whole bunch of Christians gathering to eat pizza. So he said, I'll send somebody to the Alamo. Cause they were in San Antonio. He said, I'll send somebody to the Alamo in this color car. You go get in their car and they will take you to where the Christians are eating pizza. No joke. So my brother in law is like, okay, a little naive. He's like, we might get murdered, but let's go, Jess. So Jess and Ben hop in this random car. They go to this place where all these Christians were for sure eating pizza there. And they meet Jeremy there. And it was so random. The guy who invited him from Facebook wasn't there. And so they show up and they're like, are we supposed to be here? Where's Matt? And the guy's like, oh, yeah, Matt's never here. He's always working. But we're glad you're here. So they, like, welcomed them in and they met Jeremy at that house. That was the house that he was living at at that time, doing some ministry and playing soccer. And so, yeah, they met him and hit it off. And then my brother in law ended up inviting him to a conference. Actually, it was an IBLP conference that we were. Our family was visiting in Texas. And so we ended up, like, showing up there. Jeremy showed up. He had no clue where he was, and he met our family.
- [29:25]
Sadie Robertson
Was your brother in law, like, trying to set. Was he trying to set y' all up or. Not necessarily.
- [29:30]
Ginger Duggar Volo
He was. He was, yeah. He kind of told Jer. He said, Jeremy at one time, like, later down the road, he told him. He was like, yeah, it's super lonely being in the Ministry and being single. Because Jeremy had just started pastoring a small church plant. It literally had like 10 people on the border of Mexico in Laredo, Texas.
- [29:50]
Sadie Robertson
Whoa.
- [29:50]
Ginger Duggar Volo
And he, he said, I'm just praying that Lord would bring me a spouse. And my brother in law, Ben just said casually, he's like, yeah, well, I have some sister in laws who are pretty godly, so just let me know if you need to be set up or whatever. And that was kind of just like a joke. So he ended up following up with him, and it was kind of crazy because he invited him to this conference and it was a Bill Gothard conference to like, come meet my family. And so Jer shows up and is kind of like, this is interesting. Everybody's dressed the same. They all kind of look the same. He had no clue what he was getting himself into. And he met Lawson Bates that day. Kind of crazy. Our mutual friend and like, kind of like, who are all these big families? What are they doing here? And it was really interesting because he had kind of like he had saw the show at this family's house that he'd lived at for a couple years. And he was kind of like, he'd make fun of the show when he'd walk by and they'd be watching it, he'd be like, that's so weird. That's so strange. He made fun of my sister in law's engagement because he's like, oh, my goodness, you can't fly on a private little plane. Like, who does that for an engagement? Like, that's just so unrealistic. These people on reality tv. So he kind of like poke at it, but it was funny. Cause it. He showed up, he's like, oh, my goodness, it's the same family.
- [31:12]
Sadie Robertson
That's hilarious.
- [31:14]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah. So it wasn't until later on, like, we kind of met each other that day in passing. But it was several months later when he came out to Arkansas to visit Ben and Jess, that Jeremy, he really started to kind of notice me. And he thought, okay, this girl has a heart for the Lord. But he knew that there were theological differences. He knew that it was like there were a few things that we did differently. Like, I only wore skirts and didn't listen to music with drums. He didn't know half of those things initially, though. So he was like, huh, that's kind of weird. But okay. She's really. Has a heart for Jesus. She loves to share the gospel. And so he found out that my family was going on a missions trip. And Jeremy was like, okay, Ben, like, how do I get in with the family? Because we were still filming, there was a lot going on, and he had interest in me. And Ben's like, oh, yeah, just sign up for this missions trip to Central America. The whole family, like, 15 of them go on a trip every December. Just go with the family. And the trip was happening in, like, the next week, so he had him sign up. And Jeremy came on that trip, and that's where we fell in love, was in El Salvador.
- [32:26]
Sadie Robertson
Oh, my God.
- [32:29]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Like, on that trip, we were doing ministry next to each other, and. And he was like, okay, I just want to, like, ask Mr. Duggar if I can get to know his daughter. And so at the end of that trip, before he left, he said, hey, Mr. Duggar, like, can I talk to you? I'm interested in your daughter. And my dad just kind of told him, yeah, well, I think that we should get to know each other for a few weeks. So he said, how about you just talk to me for a few weeks before, and then we'll move from there. So that. That couple weeks actually ended up turning into five and a half months of Jeremy talking to my dad. And he sent him a 50 page questionnaire to fill out. Your dad, it was interesting. Yeah, 50 page questionnaire going from everything from finances to like, do you. Yeah. Do you have debt?
- [33:16]
Sadie Robertson
Oh, my God.
- [33:17]
Ginger Duggar Volo
You know, what are your previous relationships? What do you think your next 10 years look like in your life? What do you do for a living? All the things. And so Jer filled that out within, like, two days, sent it back to my dad, and that started their discussion for five and a half months. And a lot of that really was because being in the public eye, there was a certain level of realizing, you're gonna have to make it through my dad, my brothers, because there were so many people at that time who would reach out to us girls. And as you know, you get so many letters, Letters from people in prison, letters from people everywhere, and. And it's hard to sort through if you're somebody from the outside and you're not just like one of our friends we grew up with. And so it was a lot to put up with. And so he kind of went through the wringer and made it out on the other side with my parents full approval and blessing. And it was incredible just to see how he honored them through that process, even though it was something none of us really expected to happen. But once he made it through, we started talking, and the more that we started to talk, Jeremy, he didn't like I said, fully realized what teachings I was in and the theological differences that were there. But my dad had asked him to watch 60 plus hours of Bill Gothard's teaching before we could get engaged. So he started watching these videos and he was like, oh, wow, there's a lot more here than I realized. And we were FaceTiming a lot. And he, through those calls, would say, hey, I think we should watch some of these seminars together and see what Bill Gothard says. And so we'd watch a bit of a seminar. It would be like 30 seconds, and then Jarrett would pause it. He'd say, wait, hold on a second. What did he say? What do you think about that? And so we opened the Bible together. And in that time, there was so much that I believed was the word of God that was actually just Bill Gothard's teaching. And so when we would pause those videos, it was actually the biggest blessing that my dad asked him to watch that, because we were able to talk through those things and pause the videos, open the Bible, and we'd see where Bill Gothard said half the time the exact opposite of what the word of God said.
- [35:34]
Sadie Robertson
Wow.
- [35:34]
Ginger Duggar Volo
But he was so. He was so able to take a verse and twist it and make it say what he wanted to say. And then by the end of the seminar, he had know you making a vow to God to keep that man made rule that he had just made up. And so it was very deceptive. But it was freeing when we did that, because I started to see, wow, this is not how God operates. He does not operate. He doesn't want us operating based out of fear. And a lot of the manipulation that Bill Gothard used, those tactics, I started to realize it for what it was, and it started to fall off. And so through all of this, those hours of sitting through listening to the teachings and breaking it down, those. Those chains of, like, bondage started to just fall off. And I realized, wow, this is so helpful. This is so freeing. And I wanted other people to know about it. I wanted them to be able to come to freedom in Christ too, because you don't want to be sitting there thinking that God is out to get you at every turn, because that is a misery. God is a just God, and He does. He will act justly, but we will know what he requires of us. It's not like this superstition that we have to live under in this fear that's crippling. And so it was really, really amazing how the Lord used that and he used Jeremy in Many ways to help to lead me out of those teachings, to really find a balanced view just from going to the word and seeing what it actually said.
- [37:09]
Sadie Robertson
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Honestly, it has been, I think, such a beautiful thing how many young people are telling their story when it comes to struggling with pornography and overcoming that. I think that a lot of people have this narrative of it's just guys that struggle with that. But obviously so many girls do too. And that's why I'm super excited to share this with you guys. Just a way to help you step into freedom. I can't recommend Covenant Eyes Enough. Go to CovenantEyes.com Sadie to learn more and start your journey towards freedom today. That's covenanteyes.com Sadie that is the coolest story. Like, it is so beautiful to see how you guys walked out y's whole relationship. And just even, like, recap from the very beginning that he's like, how do I get in with the family? And normally I'd be like, yeah, here's her number. He's like, yeah, just go on the mission trip to, like, El Salvador. He's like, no, chill. Like, go on the mission. Then he does. Then he actually, like, gets into a relationship with your dad. Five and a half months, like that. That's a. That's a good amount of time to get to know someone's father and then answer the questionnaire and, like, actually go through the process. Because you're right. Like, one thing that people probably don't realize about reality tv, especially whenever you're young and you're a girl, is that there are a lot of people, especially in the faith based community we got like where people feel like they're supposed to marry you and that their, you know, their mom is convinced that you were the one for their son. Like, yes, it's always them moms, like they had a word from the Lord or a dream or this or that. And. And it's really confusing and weird as a young woman to like navigate and process that and so to just bring more understanding from also understanding the context of like reality tv. Even without different teaching, your parents are very careful and cautious of who you date because there are a lot of interesting people out there who have strong convictions that they're the one that you're supposed to marry. And so I think it's really cool that Jeremy like honored that and understood that. That. And then I think it's really cool too that whenever he understood just how big Yalls differences was, he wasn't like, okay, this won't work, you know, or we're too different. Like the fact that he was like, hey, let's study this together. Like, what an amazing man of God to like lead that in your relationship. That's so cool. Cuz so many people. I mean, I literally heard this from a friend a couple days ago. She was. They were kind of like talking. Well, they hadn't even really started talking. They hadn't even gone on the first date. And basically one of them realized that they believed something a little bit different. And it wasn't even, it wasn't dramatic, it was just little differences in the way that they really were raised. And then they decided not to even go on a first date. And I was like, what? Like, that is so wild because y' all are so, both of you are so great. And I could just see so much potential for them. But it was like one little thing that, that was different in the way that they believed. And of course things are going to be different in the way that you for sure based off of how you were brought up. And again, not that the Bible is different. When you get in the Word, you're like, okay, we are aligned on that. But you have to leave space for the way people grew up and were raised and how you got to come together and be like, okay, what do, what are we going to believe as a family based off the truth of the word of God, how are we going to raise our kids? What do we. And then, and then when you come to that mutual agreement, like, oh, we're aligned and it's on the Word, then you're good, you know, you're you're good to go. You can talk about past all you want, you can help each other work through it, but you have an alignment on the Word. And so I just think a lot of couples miss out on maybe their both of their growth in the Word because maybe one thing was a little different based off how they grew up. And obviously, like, there are bigger dramatic things I'm not talking about. Like, if someone is an unbeliever and unwilling to study the Word or not wanting that at all, don't be unequally yoked. But then there are just things that are different in the ways that you grew up in traditions that you work through in the Word. So your story is very inspiring and I hope people really are paying attention to that. It's so cool because you wrote this book People Pleaser, which again, like even that title is about to make everybody go on and buy it. And if you're not buying it, if you haven't already bought it, you need to buy it because this book is incredible. But I thought it was really cool. I was hearing you talk about in an interview that it was actually while you were writing your other book, Becoming Free Indeed, that you started really noticing how much of a people pleaser you really were. Can you talk about just that writing process for another book that kind of uncovered something in your heart you maybe didn't even realize was fully there?
- [42:32]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah, for sure. I think when I started to write Becoming Free, indeed, that was my theological memoir. It was basically talking about how I was raised under those teachings of Bill Gothard and how I came to freedom in Christ. And it was a hard book to write primarily because I thought I would leave that setting, that the family and friends that grew up under those teachings may reject me or it may just be difficult. And so at the end of the day, the reason I decided to write it was because I knew, okay, this is not a tell all. This is just my journey of faith. This is talking about the fears that I face faced under those teachings. And I wanted people who followed those teachings to find freedom in Christ, to come to know Jesus as a kind and loving heavenly Father. And that was something that was really a burden of my heart. And so God gave grace and help to walk through that. But it was not easy. I mean, many nights I just remember breaking down in tears and praying and asking God for strength to help me because I didn't know what was going to come after that. And so. But the Lord was very faithful and kind and really gave peace in my heart moving forward with that book. And a lot of my fears were not realized. I did have friends and loved ones who did not approve and did not think it was right that I would speak out against Bill Gothard. But at the same time, I think the Lord, when he calls you to do something, he will give you the grace and the peace to walk in that way. And so that's exactly what happened. And then when I was writing that book, though, I felt that turmoil in my heart thinking, okay, I'm such a people pleaser. Like, I've got to stop being such a people pleaser. Because ultimately it's not loving to those around me if I'm thinking constantly consumed by what others think of me, trying to keep everyone happy. I can make somebody happy. On one side of the, you know, one side of the issue, somebody else is going to be mad. On the other side, somebody's going to be mad that I'm walking with Christ. Another person's going to wish that I would have left the faith. So I cannot be a people pleaser in that way. And not all people pleasing is bad because, like, we realize, like, there are elements to it, so we're designed for community. It's a good thing to want people to like you. You don't want to just be a brash person who doesn't care about anybody. So there's that side of people pleasing, but for me, it manifests itself in a crippling fear. And it kept me from speaking up for the vulnerable, speaking up for those who were in harm's way. And I'd rather stand by and be passive when I should probably speak up. And that was something that the Lord was showing me. And I started to see, man, I really want to break free from this. And so through that book process, that book writing process, once it was out there, I was like, wow, I feel like I should wrap write a book talking about my struggles through people pleasing and also some things that the Lord's taught me on this journey. And so I definitely saw people pleasing show up in many forms and in many times. So when I was a young kid, I wanted to, like, keep everybody happy with me. Through my teenage years, I struggled with an eating disorder. And so it was hard for me for just those years as a young teen to wrestle through my body image. And that was another form of people pleasing, trying to make everybody like me by being looking a certain way. And then the older I got, once I was married, it was with my husband. Is he gonna like me? Is he gonna approve of me? And then with kids, it's next level because, yeah, you can't keep your house perfectly clean. If you want community, you're gonna have to invite them into the mess and into chaos at times and not keep everything perfect. And so I started to realize, wow, showing up in so many areas in my life, and if I can just be willing to, by God's grace, open up and share a few stories and helpful verses that have come to mind, then maybe this could be helpful to other moms and other young people who are coming up behind me.
- [46:45]
Unknown
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- [47:15]
Sadie Robertson
Oh, man, I'm so glad you did because it's so real and it's so true. It's like when you have a thing like people pleasing, it doesn't just affect one area of your life. Really do see it affect every. Every area of your life. And I, very similar to you, had, you know, struggle with an eating disorder in high school. And a lot of that, for me, I think, came from, like, how crazy life was with, like, being known by so many people. And it felt like one thing I could, like, kind of control. And it was just like a. For a little bit different reasons, but also same, like, there was this element underneath it of people pleasing for, like, the people that I was dating. I thought I would be, like, more attractive if I was thinner or more fit or more whatever. And, like, always trying to, like, keep up with this image that people, you know, had of me, or so I thought they did or whatever. And then it's so true. If you don't uproot that and if you don't address that, it will go into all the other things in your life, even the good things, because for me, like, that people pleasing and even the eating disorder came out of, like, a really unhealthy, toxic, toxic time of my life where I was, like, not in great relationships and not in a great headspace. But then even when I got into, like, a good space, like, I'm now in a great relationship with, like, a man who I love and I'm married to and children, like, because I didn't kind of address that Thing that came in and tried to take away from the goodness of what I had, you know, And I'm like, wait a second. Like, no, we got to deal with this because I don't want this to take away or poison, like something that's so beautiful and so good that I have. And I remember, like, coming head on to the people pleasing thing the day after I had my first daughter in the hospital because it was so crazy. I just really realized how much I cared about what people thought of me. And it's so interesting because if you would have asked me at that time, like, do you care what people think of you? I mean, be like, no, I'm so past that. You know, there's so many opinions of me out there, blah, blah, I'm confident in who I am, all this stuff. But in the hospital, I realized how much I kind of did care. And it lingered because I had in my mind, like, I was going to have a natural birth and I wasn't going to have an epidural and blah, blah. And like, you know, had the way I wanted to do it. And my doctor kept telling me, like, it's probably not smart. Like the baby. He could tell, like, the baby was big by the way she was measuring. I was 41 weeks. He really felt like it was gonna be better to get induced. And I was like, no. Like, no, no, no. Finally, my husband was like, you need to listen to the doctor. And I'm like, okay, fine, but I'm not getting epidural. Like, I want to at least like, do that natural. Well, you know, I get to like 6am I had gotten there like the night before. It's like 6am I stayed up all night in so much pain. And finally I was like, why am I not getting an epidural? Like, I just kind of asked myself that question. And I realized it wasn't because I thought it was wrong or anything like that. It was literally just like, what is my. What are my friends gonna think? Who didn't, you know who? They went natural and so I should go natural. What is, like online gonna think? Because I've said I was gonna go naturally. All the. It was all what people were gonna think. So then, thankfully, I did get the epidural and I didn't know I was about to have such a crazy childbirth because Honey had shoulder dystocia. And it was just like a wild situation. And I'm so thankful that I had it. Then after it was like breastfeeding and it was like all these complications. I was Having, but I was like, I gotta do it now. I was like realizing it was because I was scared of what people were gonna think about me. And I had this heart to heart with myself in the hospital of like, okay, this has to stop now. Like, I. God, you have made me the mother of this child. You are going to equip me with everything I need to be the best mom that I can for her. And I am not gonna look to what people think or people's opinion. Like, I'm looking to you to help me Ra. And I'm like, so glad for that. And not that there hasn't been struggles and times that I felt insecure and all that stuff, but that was such a heart changing moment for me where I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to like, let that pattern just keep spiraling. And I know for you motherhood was a big wake up call as well. Like, what did you see? How did you see people pleasing start to sneak into motherhood for you?
- [51:40]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah. Well, I love that story. First off, I have to say that because I was in a similar boat. I think that was one of the first things I noticed, noticed in, in motherhood because so many people before me had done the whole home birth and no medication whatsoever. And I knew I didn't want to do that, but I also didn't want to say it.
- [51:58]
Sadie Robertson
Yeah.
- [51:58]
Ginger Duggar Volo
So I kind of was like, I'm just gonna do my own thing. But I definitely did feel the pressure of other people's opinions and I let that affect me a lot. But. Yeah, but scooting back a little bit, I think that when I first realized as a mom, the people pleasing tendencies, it was when we first moved here to California. We're in la and we had moved from a small church plant in Texas. Jeremy came out here for seminary and it was a big move. And as we left that small church, I remember one of the ladies in our church told me, she said, ginger, I like feel, feel like I didn't really get to know you. You didn't really let us into your life in a deep way. And I was like, oh, like that. That killed me hearing that. It just really shook me up. And when we moved here to la, it was, you know, we knew a few people, just a couple, and started to get plugged in a local church. And it was great. But at the same time I had a lot of fear and I felt myself feeling like I, I was just performing all the time. It was not like I was trying to, I was trying I really genuinely, like, loved the Lord. It wasn't performance in even the spiritual duties. It was more so just in everyday life. So if a mom came over and her kids only ate organic food, I would quickly hide my, you know, goldfish or something that I happened to buy the day before. And I would. There would be things like that where I would just panic and fear. Like, there was a mom who, when I first moved here, she said, oh, Ginger, I'm in the area. Can I just swing by your house? I wanted to, like, drop off something for you. And so I was like, sure, yeah, come on over. But it took everything in me to tell her that she could come to my house. Because that day, I just didn't have it all together. I had a little toddler, and my house was a mess, and I was embarrassed, but I needed her to come over and drop this off. So I was like, sure, come over. And anyhow, wouldn't you know, her little one was just starting to crawl. She put her on my carpet and she crawled over under my table, started eating dried Cheerios off the floor, literally picking them off the floor. And I was like, oh, my word. I'm so mortified. I do clean my house. I promise it was clean. Anytime people are not at my house, it's, like, spotless, because I love a clean house. But then when no one comes for, like, three days, somebody pops in unexpectedly, and it's like, they think I am, like, our house is always a disaster, and it's just not. So I was mortified. I was like, oh, my goodness, she's never gonna come over again because here her kid is eating these Cheerios off the floor. And she so graciously. I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry. So I ran to grab the broom, and she picked her kid up and was like, it's fine. She would have eaten. She would have got him off of our floor if it wasn't yours. So I went and got her a bowl of, like, proper cereal.
- [54:55]
Sadie Robertson
Actual truth.
- [54:56]
Ginger Duggar Volo
And I cleaned that up off the floor. But it's things like that, right, as moms, that can be so big in our mind. And it really. Ultimately, when it's coming down to it, we have to think, okay, what is my motivation? What am I trying to keep up? Is it this image? And, yeah, we don't wanna be slobs. But at the same time, in that case, it's like I realized I was sacrificing this true relationship for something that I wanted to keep. Picture perfect. And ultimately, I've realized that throughout that season, when I was in Texas, I would so often just, like, push people out. And I think some of that, too, maybe you can relate to. I'm not sure. But being in the public eye, there's pressures that we put on ourselves. And so. So many people may think of us a certain way or have an image in their mind of who we're supposed to be. Our personality on the show may have been more crazy and bold, and maybe when they come to my house, I might not have caffeine in my system, and so maybe I'm gonna be more chill. And I think that those things often can keep us from having people in our lives. But ultimately, the real thing is, like, as Christians, we are called to be genuine, real. To have those relationships where somebody can come into our life and challenge us and they can see who we truly are. That's our spouse, that's a close friend. But those are all gifts of God. But if we're pushing that away in true community, oftentimes we're not going to allow ourselves to have anybody even share a needful critique with us because we're so consumed with who we want them to see us as. And so I think those challenges. Challenges were ones that I faced definitely in motherhood.
- [56:44]
Sadie Robertson
I can relate so much. I actually wrote down a quote from your book. The lifestyle of image management becomes isolating and unsustainable. And I was like, that is so true. And I actually had a really similar conversation with my community in Nashville before I moved my friend, thankfully, it was, like, a good bit before I moved. And she's one of my best friends to this day, but she was like, sadie, I just feel like we don't know you, you know, like, she's like, I feel like you're everybody's friend, but, like, you don't let anyone actually, like, be your friend back. You know, like, you're everyone's friend from a distance, but not, like, up close. And I was like, no, you're like, you're right. You're right. I don't. Like, I don't. I don't even. It's not that I'm trying not to. It's just that. That it's kind of like you. You were nine years old whenever you started the show. I was 13 when we started filming our show. You don't even try. Like, it doesn't feel like you're trying to perform. It's just that, you know what? When the camera's on, you're just. You just know how to act, you know, or like, when so many people are in your house, you're just going to behave like you're just gonna do it, right?
- [57:56]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Yeah.
- [57:56]
Sadie Robertson
And like, you kind of know, you know, in reality tv, it's like you're playing yourself, but you do kind of get characterized as like, a version of yourself. So, like, you know how to play into that. And so not that you're trying to. It just. I think it happens for anybody. Like, anytime, you know, people pull out the video camera, like, you're gonna kind of, like, sit up a little straighter. And people, like, watch themselves back, and they're like, oh, I hate the way my voice sounds. Well, it's like when you're so used to seeing yourself on camera, you don't even mean to, but you can kind of become like that and be so, like, aware. I remember one of my best friends told me one time, it was pretty funny. We were, like, all in a wedding together, and I said something about, like, oh, I don't like the way my arm looks on camera. I can't remember what I said. Something about my arms and the way that they look based off the way that we were all positioned in this photo. And she goes, you've seen yourself on camera too much. And it was, like, such a good best friend moment to be like, no one cares. No one else noticed your arm. You noticed your arm.
- [58:57]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Totally.
- [58:58]
Sadie Robertson
I'm, like, so thankful for those friendships. And ever since my friend confronted me that first time, I've done friendships so differently and actually let them in. And it has been the greatest gift of my entire life to be seen for who I am and known for who I am. Like, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it. And it's so funny that you bring up the Cheerio thing, because that actually, like, it's very similar happened to me. I was hosting a baby shower, and it was so hilarious. So, like, right whenever you come in my door, there's this little, like, bench thing. And someone suggested, oh, we could use that bench for the, you know, mom to be. To sit on. I was like, oh, that would be perfect. So, like, I pick it up, and as soon as I pick it up, on the back side of the bench, there is a whole cinnamon roll stuck to the thing.
- [59:44]
Ginger Duggar Volo
I love that.
- [59:45]
Sadie Robertson
There's literally no telling how long that's been there. It was, like, rock solid. And I'm like, when did they put that there? But it's, like, so just part of being a mom. Like, here we are. Yes. And it was so cool. Because one of my friends actually told me, she's like, you know, whenever I come to your house, she's like, I mean, this is a compliment, but how kind of, you know, chaotic it is. It makes me feel the freedom for, like, it's okay, my house looks like that. And it's so true. Like, when you're just, like, free in who you are, it really does give people the gift to be free in who they are. And it's like, it's just beautiful when you're walking in freedom and it kind of gives people the gift to be free themselves. And you're walking in your originality. It gives people the gift to be original themselves and feel celebrated for that. And so it really is such a gift when you can break free of that pleasing mentality and performance mentality that opens the door for, like, true relationship and growth. Ginger, this is so crazy. We've gone 53 minutes. Like, this podcast is, like, at the end, and I'm like, I feel like I have so much more to talk to you about, but I just want to say you are truly a gift to the world. The way that you. You have handled your life in the public eye with so much grace. And even just like, you didn't have to write the books, you didn't have to start the podcast, you didn't have to keep putting yourself out there, but the fact that you continue to and you continue to show people the true love of the father, it is such a gift. And I'm just so thankful for your platform and to everyone listening on this podcast because this went by so fast. You gotta go get her book. There's so much more where this came from. Listen to her podcast. Dive into the world of Ginger and Jeremy and you will be blessed. But thank you truly so much for the wisdom you poured out today. It was so good.
- [61:34]
Ginger Duggar Volo
Well, thank you so much for having me, Sadie. It's been a joy. And, yeah, hopefully we can connect more soon.
- [61:41]
Sadie Robertson
And you're in la. I didn't even know that. So now I'll. Next time I go to la, we'll have to connect. Let us know. That would be awesome. Oh, this was fun. Thank you so much for being on. On.