How Our Hardest Season Made Us Stronger | Sadie Robertson Huff | Luke & Courtney Smallbone

Summary

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WHOA That’s Good Podcast — “How Our Hardest Season Made Us Stronger”

Host: Sadie Robertson Huff
Guests: Luke & Courtney Smallbone
Release Date: February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt episode welcomes Luke and Courtney Smallbone—musicians, songwriters, and a married couple—who join Sadie Robertson Huff for a deep and vulnerable conversation about enduring hard seasons, honest marriage, faith, and hope. The discussion weaves humor and practical advice with moving personal testimonies, emphasizing how enduring difficulties has strengthened their marriage and spiritual lives. The episode’s tone is open, relatable, and full of gentle encouragement for listeners navigating their own valleys.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Marriage Stories and Learning Together

• Light-hearted Memories: Luke and Courtney reminisce about the hilarity and innocence of their newlywed days, like the infamous “dishwasher bubbles” incident where dish soap caused suds to flood their kitchen ([00:00]–[01:08]).
  • Courtney: “We were children...raising each other at that point.” ([00:34])
  • Luke: “The suds were so thick that the rubber seal on the dishwasher couldn’t hold all of the bubbles.” ([00:48])

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2. Symbolism of New Seasons — The Bob Haircut

• Significance of Change: Courtney and Sadie chat openly about the emotional weight women often attach to cutting their hair and how it can symbolize entering new seasons or embracing authenticity ([02:33]–[05:14]).
  • Courtney: “I think I’m just tired of not looking like myself...there’s this act of, like, you know what? I’m gonna cut off all my hair. This is like Joan of Arc vibe.” ([03:12]–[03:45])
  • Sadie: “In the past, I changed my hair whenever seasons were getting a little crazy and I wanted to control something...this time, it’s not like that. I’m actually really healthy.” ([04:28])

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3. Pursuing Simplicity: Homesteading & Country Life

• The Smallbones’ Journey: Luke details how illness and busyness prompted the move from urban Nashville to a rural farm, seeking space, restoration, and a better pace for their family ([06:01]–[09:35]).
  • Luke: “I think for me to love people best is for me to be able to take some retreats. Because once I retreat a little bit and I get my soul in order, I can actually love people the way they deserve to be loved.” ([10:13])
  • Courtney: “I love people, but not in the morning when I’m drinking my [coffee].” ([07:23])
• Practical Encouragement: They emphasize that anyone can start small with homesteading and soul-restoring practices, even if it’s just “taking two-minute vacations.” ([09:35])

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4. Meeting Story: From Shoes to Soulmates

• Meet-Cute at the Mall: Luke tells the story of their first meeting at Journeys shoe store, their comically awkward first interaction, and how a “backwards Cinderella” story (wrong-size shoes and all) led them to friendship and, eventually, love ([13:40]–[20:31]).
  • Luke: “My pickup line was...oh, you’re a Helm, huh?...It was so—And she was like, you must be a Smallbone, which sounded particularly derogatory in return.” ([14:39])
  • Courtney: “I was not in that phase in my life. I was like, it’s me and God, I don’t want anyone.” ([16:16])
  • Sadie: “This is straight up Cinderella backwards.” ([17:18])

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5. Courtney’s Faith Journey and Crisis

• Crisis of Faith: Courtney shares her profound struggle growing up a third-generation pastor’s kid, wrestling with making faith her own and walking through deep doubt, atheism, and a health crisis ([20:59]–[23:40]).
  • Courtney: “Until I know you, I’m out...So I was a self-professed atheist. I didn’t want what other people were telling me. I want to know you.” ([21:13])
  • On Finding God in Suffering: “What I knew about Him after...was you are who you say you are, you do what you say you will do. You can have my life.” ([22:31])

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6. Early Marriage Trials: Sickness, Trauma, and Perseverance

• Major Health Battles: Luke opens up about developing a severe autoimmune disease soon after marriage, being physically debilitated, and how Courtney became his caregiver ([26:33]–[32:47]).
  • Luke: “I’m six foot four...I got down to about 125 pounds...I was so weak I couldn’t even hold [our son].”
  • Near Loss of Son: The couple recounts the trauma of nearly losing their infant son Leo, followed by the discovery he needed major skull reconstruction surgery.
  • Building “Marriage Equity”: They reflect on living out their vows “for better or worse” very early, discovering that struggling together builds deep resilience and intimacy.
    • Luke: “We had the gift of living out our vows in our 20s...Sometimes the greatest way God can love you is actually by allowing you to go through some struggle...Struggle produces character, it produces perseverance, and it ends up with hope...If you want hope, you’re likely going to have to walk through some struggle.” ([32:47])

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7. Faith Refined: The Role of Suffering

• Sadie on Job: Sadie relates their story to the book of Job—pressing through suffering to a deeper, more personal faith ([34:20]–[35:28]).
• Luke: “Work out your faith with fear and trembling...You have to get to a desperation point...That’s when reliance and faith is produced.” ([33:16])

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8. Communication & Conflict Resolution in Marriage

• Conflict as Intimacy: The Smallbones discuss the importance of honest communication and healthy conflict resolution, skills they identified during premarital counseling ([35:59]–[41:23]).
  • Courtney: “Communication is so bedrock...You have to be surrendered. You also have to have zero pride...There’s been so many times where I’m like, babe, I know I sound ridiculous, but I feel insecure about...” ([38:05]–[41:09])
  • Sadie: “You trust the process now...Even the ‘haircut thing’...To have a spouse where it’s like, you have such open communication that you can say those things.” ([41:09])

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9. Addiction, Anxiety, and Redemption — Courtney’s Testimony

• Courtney’s Story of Addiction: She opens her heart about developing dependency on prescription medication while coping with trauma, overwhelming anxiety, and feeling broken in the early years of marriage and motherhood ([44:00]–[53:32]).
  • Courtney: “That story, I call it the Burn the Ship story because he wrote a song ending up about that season in my life that became an album.” ([44:11])
  • On Recovery: “Walking into the rehab center, you’re like, this is the bottom...But at this point you’re so broken that you just need help. And it was huge because I didn’t ask for help up until that point.” ([47:12])
  • On Surrender: “I received grace in this season where I was like, it’s not about my performance...I just surrendered everything.” ([52:15])

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10. Transformation and Multiplication

• Letting Things Die: Courtney connects her journey through addiction and recovery, and her son Phoenix’s symbolic name, to spiritual resurrection and hope.
  • Courtney: “I’m carrying Phoenix. I’m in my Phoenix season. But we have to let it go to ashes for it to become beauty...Let it die, let it burn, because then God can do so much with it.” ([53:26])
• Miracles and Slow Healing: She distinguishes between the quick, miraculous parts of healing and the slow, grueling process—emphasizing God’s goodness in both ([53:32]).
• Testimony Songs: Luke shares how their real-life stories, especially surviving hardship, become songs—like “Burn the Ships” and “Ever and Ever Before”—intended to encourage others ([58:48]).
  • Luke: “These stories reflect my faithfulness and goodness in your life. So go tell them...I just made a decision, God could have my stories, you know? And so those stories become songs.” ([60:05])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Luke Smallbone ([10:13]):
  “For me to love people best is for me to be able to take some retreats. Once I get my soul in order, I can actually love people the way they deserve to be loved.”

• Courtney Smallbone ([38:56]):
  “Communication is so bedrock...You have to say the truth. The only way to do that is to be like, hey, when you did that, that hurt me because of this...God has a way of using your spouse to come in, sometimes with a little scalpel, sometimes with an alcohol pad...to clean up the pus and all this stuff.”

• Luke Smallbone ([32:47]):
  “We had the gift of living out our vows in our 20s...Sometimes the greatest way God can love you is actually by allowing you to go through some struggle.”

• Courtney Smallbone ([53:26]):
  “Let it die, let it burn. Because then God can do so much with it.”

• Luke Smallbone ([60:05]):
  “God gives you testimonies to share them...Those stories become songs.”

• Sadie Robertson Huff ([61:58]):
  “Freedom is on the other side. Hope is on the other side. Certainty. And you’re going to know God so much more than you ever have when you decide to get to know Him in that personal way.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Newlywed Dishwasher Story: [00:00]–[01:08]
• Haircuts and Symbolism: [02:33]–[05:14]
• Homesteading and Healing in Nature: [06:01]–[10:55]
• How Luke & Courtney Met (Cinderella Backwards): [13:40]–[20:31]
• Courtney’s Faith Crisis & Suffering: [20:59]–[23:40]
• Health Crisis & Early Marriage Struggles: [26:33]–[32:47]
• Hope Through Suffering: [32:47]–[34:20]
• Communication & Conflict Resolution: [35:59]–[41:09]
• Courtney’s Addiction & Redemption: [44:00]–[53:32]
• Songwriting as Testimony (“Burn the Ships,” “Ever and Ever Before”): [58:48]–[61:58]

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Tone & Takeaway

The episode is intimate, honest, and hope-filled. The Smallbones’ willingness to be real about marriage, faith doubts, mental health, and restoration offers comfort and actionable wisdom to anyone in a hard place. Sadie’s empathetic approach, coupled with practical advice and scriptural encouragement, make this a must-listen for those seeking hope, healing, or reassurance that beauty can come from ashes.

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Transcript

[Luke Smallbone]

My favorite part about when we first got married was we'd probably only been married for a few weeks. And I go into the kitchen, and she's like, something's wrong with the dishwasher. There's bubbles coming out everywhere. And I was like, I open it up and I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, there's obviously something. What did you put in this? And she was like, I just put in the dish soap. Into the.

[Courtney Smallbone]

We were children.

[Luke Smallbone]

It was bleeding. It was bleeding.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I knew nothing.

[Luke Smallbone]

All over everything.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I mean, it was. You know, now it's cute. Like, that would have been the right thing.

[Courtney Smallbone]

It's so cute. But I was like, we were children. We were children. Raising each other at that point dawned.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

In the dishwasher dawned so many. He knew that. I never knew. That is hilarious. I didn't learn together. You learned together.

[Luke Smallbone]

The suds were so thick that the rubber seal on the dishwasher couldn't hold all of the bubbles.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It overflowed out of the dishwasher.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yes. It was literally, like bleeding out bubbles.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That is so funny.

[Courtney Smallbone]

It was terrifying for me at the moment.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Totally done. That was terrifying. That is hilarious.

[Luke Smallbone]

We haven't told that. I don't think I've a long time.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

What's up, everybody? I hope you're having a great day. It is about to get so much better because we have some amazing guests all the way here in Monroe today, and I'm so excited for it. This is the second time for Luke, the first. First time for his wife, Courtney Smallville, to be on the podcast, and we have a million things to talk about, honestly. But first, I just wanna say welcome to the podcast and thank y' all for coming all the way this way to stay at Hotel Monroe.

[Luke Smallbone]

I know we got to have a little bit of, like, a romantic getaway coming down here. We saw this on the schedule, and I was like, honey, I. I think it's just you and I going down to Louisiana. And. And so anyway, I got a text from my brother Josh, who actually runs our office. He was like, hey, by the way, like, the hotel that they've got you staying in is like, he scouts. And so he just looks at everything. So we just felt so loved, so hosted. So, like, you guys have been so hospitable. And, yeah, we just kind of showed up.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

And I love that. I love that. Well, we always want people to feel that way. And for some people who are listening to this, and you came, you know, for a conference one year, and you might have Stayed at not so great of a hotel, and they were just. I'm sorry. Monroe has a good side and some not so good, but all of it is a fun experience, so we're glad that y' all have been having fun. Also, Courtney, can we talk about for a second the Bob Life?

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah, we. This is really a podcast about how a haircut can change your life.

[Luke Smallbone]

I knew it. I knew it.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Your post, though, like, you had a little series of a post when you cut your hair, and I related to it so much because before I got my haircut, I was like, why is this such a big deal? Like, why does this feel like such a big deal? I literally scheduled it twice and then canceled the appointment. Twice.

[Luke Smallbone]

Because you were scared?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yes. And then I was like, why is this so dramatic? And I was, like, annoyed at myself for it being so dramatic. But then when you posted that, I was like, wow, okay. I'm not the only person that this feels like, I don't know, bigger than just, like, a haircut. But can you share a little bit about that? Because that was really good.

[Courtney Smallbone]

There's a lot attached to hair. So I. I mean, it was funny because I was like, babe, I was like, tell. I tell him everything, all the thoughts. But I was like, this is what it feels like, like, when you cut your hair. Right. And it was, like, super long and more blonde, which is not my natural color. And so for a while, I had extensions, all this stuff. And I was like, I think I'm just tired of not looking like myself.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yep. Or.

[Luke Smallbone]

Or.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I don't know. It was like, almost this act of, like, there's a new season, so you actually need to look a different way.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yes.

[Courtney Smallbone]

So there's this. This act of, like, you know what? I'm gonna cut off all my hair. This is like Joan of Arc vibe, you know? And you know what? Also, in many cultures, they would cut off their hair when they were done mourning, when they were marking new seasons. So I, like, study that after the fact. I was like, I don't know. I just feel like we just need to, like, take it off. But it's really true. You can. A lot of women that I've talked to sense that they're like, I don't know if I could do that. Like, I. Yeah, would I be beautiful? Like, there's so much around it. There's emotions around it, and, like, beauty. And I was like, wow.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Didn't know.

[Luke Smallbone]

At least we know that Samson can relate.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

You know what I mean?

[Luke Smallbone]

Like, he went through some things.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Hey, it's dma.

[Luke Smallbone]

He went through some things.

[Courtney Smallbone]

That's a whole different story. We're going a different route.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I was like, no stuff going on. No. That's actually so true, though. Like, I felt like, because in the past, I changed my hair whenever seasons were getting a little crazy and I wanted to control something that's. And then I was like, this time it's not like that. Like, I'm actually really healthy. And so I was like, okay, how.

[Luke Smallbone]

Much does it cost?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

A dramatic. It was like long.

[Courtney Smallbone]

She had long hair, like, dramatic.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It was like a big scream. Yeah. And so anyways, it was just really cool to see you do that. And then your post, I was like, man, you're putting some words to kind of what I was feeling. So, yeah, it was cool. And you look amazing. I love the bob.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I love your Bob too.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I love it.

[Luke Smallbone]

I love it too. I love the change. It was cool.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

See, that's sweet. That's a good husband right there. Supporting the haircut.

[Courtney Smallbone]

He was more all in, maybe, than me. Like, he was like, I think this is my Christian.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Was.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. Isn't that strange? I was like, oh, who was I before? I know.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It's like, why didn't I do this?

[Courtney Smallbone]

So many new thoughts.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I love that. Okay, the other thing that I want to chit chat about before we dive into the deep end is you guys are like, homeschooling homestead. Like, this is. This is what everyone's inspired by these days. You know, I feel like once you go down that path, like, there's a whole. If you start following people on that path, then your whole social media is that. And it's very inspiring. I'm not there yet. My brother and sister in law are, and they're our neighbors. So I feel like I'm kind tied to the connection. I get some eggs out of the situation, some honey from the bees. I feel like I'm, you know, placed in high favor because I'm beside someone who's locked in, but I need to get locked in, too. So tell me about how that whole journey started for y'. All.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, well, it was quite a number of years ago. I. I mean, what we've been, where we've been living now, it's been coming up on 11 years. So we live just south of Nashville, and life was extremely busy and I just had been really, really sick. And honestly, what you guys are talking about with the hair, the move kind of represented in some cases, we need to change up life a little bit. And so I was coming back from the road and had these people, like, neighbors, like, so happy to have you home. And I was like, I appreciate that. And I think I came into the house one day, I was like, honey, I can't do this anymore.

[Courtney Smallbone]

It's going from so many people to.

[Luke Smallbone]

More people to more people. And, like, how was your tr? And it was just like, I just kind of. So anyway, we were like, well, let's move to the country. And when we moved to the country, this old. It's an old 1840s farmhouse, and we were just. We had young kids. I think Jude was two and a half, Phoenix was six months old. And we just kind of realized that we wanted to blow up life and get outside. And, you know, obviously, I love, like, mowing and I love doing. I love weed eating. I grew up doing that, you know, kind of when I was a kid, and I just needed to feel like. Courtney used to say, and this is not for everybody, so I'm just gonna qualify this. But she used to say, I wanna walk out in the back porch, I wanna look to my left, I wanna look to my right, and I don't wanna see anybody.

[Courtney Smallbone]

And, like, I love people, but not in the morning when I'm drinking my.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Hey, that's fair.

[Luke Smallbone]

So then we had some friends that kind of mentored us that were older, in their 50s, and they were like, hey, we got into cows. You've got young kids. Maybe you guys could get into cows. And so anyway, we had bought some land, and I don't know why. Why we even bought the land. At some level, I just loved land. And I was like, honey, I think that we should put cows on the. And she's like, did you grow up doing cows? No. Don't know anything about it. Don't know how to do it. Don't know. And so anyway, a friend of Isles, he was like, hey, here's the deal with cows. You just basically have to have really good fencing. You have to feed them, and they have to have water, and you just observe them.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Luke Smallbone]

And so, for whatever reason, for whatever reason, it has become extremely therapeutic. I've often thought that obviously, we live lifestyles that can be a little intense at times. And people are like, oh, when you come back off the road, you must be exhausted. And I'm like, physically, you're basically fine within 24 to 48 hours. It's the emotional stuff that is the draining stuff. And I've often said that for whatever reason, when I come home and she'll see this. Sometimes I go out and I get on the tractor, I get on the skid steer, and I go feed the animals. And I might take a little bit longer than really the task needs. And that's just. For whatever reason, it's life giving to me. So we are pretty. When it comes to homestead, we've got chickens, we've got cows. You know, we've got dogs, and we used to have bees. I killed all the bees.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Well, actually, our neighbor, someone sprayed some toxins, and it killed, actually, all the neighboring bees. Rest in peace.

[Luke Smallbone]

So, anyway, so it's always been a little bit of a.

[Courtney Smallbone]

It happens.

[Luke Smallbone]

It happens. It's been a little bit of a process. And I think there's a lot of people, because on Instagram and things, you get into homesteading, it's like, well, I'm not homesteading as good as that person.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

Is there's people that are going to scale this thing up. We have found a rhythm that works for us. And I think if there was other people that were interested in doing these types of things, it's like, for you guys, you might not want to be getting into bees, cows, chickens, pigs, and turkey. People go crazy with it. Right. But if you want to dabble in it, there's just a few sometimes steps that you can take. And that was kind of our process.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's super cool. I love that. Well, it's very inspiring, and I feel similar in that we love when we come back. Like, I lived in Nashville for a little while, and, like, in Nashville, and that was really hard for me because I felt like there was never an off moment, too. Like, I would go get coffee, and it's like, people on their bachelorette trip, and they're like, sadie. And I'm like, hi. But I'm also, like, trying to just get coffee. And I love meeting people. And that was the thing about it. I actually love meeting people and talking to people. But at that point, it was so much that I was starting to, like, be overwhelmed by that and not enjoy it. And I'm like, this is not who I am. Like, I like this, you know? And I feel like y' all probably feel the same way.

[Luke Smallbone]

I love people as well. But what I've realized is for me to love people best is for me to be able to take some retreats. Because the truth is, once I retreat a little bit and I get my soul in order, I can actually love people the way they deserve to be loved. And so I felt the same thing. Like, it's not that I don't like. And you feel this conviction, but it's actually that you gotta take care of your soul.

[Courtney Smallbone]

So true.

[Luke Smallbone]

You know what I mean? If you take care of your soul, you can be a great, in my situation, husband, but you can be a great spouse. You can have room to be a good parent, you can have room to be a good business leader, a good friend. But when your soul is empty, you start sucking at all of it.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So true.

[Luke Smallbone]

And that's not what we really want to be in life.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's actually so true. It makes me think of, like, love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, love your neighbor as yourself. But, like, it comes out of order, loving God. And I think that's so real because once I moved back here, I was just like, oh, I can breathe, you know? And then when I go out anywhere, even just locally in town, like, I feel like, oh, like my soul is revived. Like, it's good because I, like, my home is at peace, you know? And so I feel that. I love that. That's really good advice. Even for people who might not be able to move or you might not get the haircut. There's little things that you can do, you know? I always love this quote. It said, take two minute vacations. And I'm like, that's good. Like, sometimes you only have two minutes, sometimes you have two hours, sometimes you have two days. But, like, take those moments to, like, revive your soul. So good, guys.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Foreign.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

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[Luke Smallbone]

So I was, I had bought some shoes from Jonas shoe store in the mall. I don't know if they have the, the, you know, them down here in Monroe or not. Yes. CF Joni's Shout out. And so I bought some shoes. And for whatever reason, I mean, you gotta understand, in my early 20s, I was fundamentally broke. And I had spent like, I went out and was like, I got $100 shoes, you know, and I got nice shoes. And within a week, I kid you not, the heel had just like popped off.

[Courtney Smallbone]

They were like diesel shoes.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, they were like nice shoes.

[Courtney Smallbone]

What were you doing in these?

[Luke Smallbone]

And so anyway, I was like, you know, I had this like, poor man's wrath, you know, I was like, I'm going to deal with the people at journeys for selling me bad shoes.

[Courtney Smallbone]

That's actually true.

[Luke Smallbone]

And so anyway, I walk into the store and Courtney didn't sell me the shoes, but Courtney was behind the counter in this situation. And so I went in and I knew of her family from church, but we had never really. We'd seen each other maybe one other time, but we didn't really have a conversation.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Dads did love each other now.

[Luke Smallbone]

Dads loved each other, knew each other. So anyway, my pickup line was, cause, you know, Courtney's this beautiful girl. She's behind the counter and I literally, her maiden name is Helm. And I just went up to her and was like, oh, you're a Helm, huh? And that's what I led with. That's what I led with. It was so. And she was like, oh, you must be a smallbone. Which sounded particularly derogatory in return. And so anyway, we had this great conversation for, like, 20 minutes. She obviously couldn't help me with my shoes, you know, because I don't know why I thought this, but, like, once you walk out with the shoes, you're not coming back with the shoes. And they're exchanging new shoes. You know, I'd kind of forgot that policy and. But we had a wonderful conversation. And so as I'm leaving, I literally knock off, like, over a shoe display of shoes. I mean, that was a disaster. I didn't fall.

[Courtney Smallbone]

He was walking backwards talking to me, which is, like, really cute.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Like, so rom com. He's like, yeah, so maybe I'll see you around.

[Courtney Smallbone]

And then I was like, oh, gosh. But I thought it also was cute. Like, I was like, yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

So anyway, I kind of biffed it. You know, this is hope for all the men out there who the first encounters don't go well. And honestly, they usually don't go as you plan to be honest. And that's part of what makes your story. Fast forward a week. I used to help run lights at our church. And so I was volunteering, and she came up and was like, hey, I'm so sorry we couldn't help you with your shoes, but I just thought I would buy you some shoes. And so she hands me these.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I was so flustered. Cause I didn't want to. Because I was like, I don't want him to think I'm like, desper and like, one attention. Because I was not in that phase in my life. I was like, it's me and God, I don't want anyone.

[Luke Smallbone]

She's 19.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. And like, I moved to Nashville. I'm like, I will not date anyone in the music industry. And then he was in music. I'm like, like, you were not my type. And then I was like, he's really kind. Like, I got to talk to him. And then I felt bad for judging him. I was like, you have a really good job.

[Luke Smallbone]

And she's like, and he lives in poverty, so I need to help him with some.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I need to, like, I need to invest in his ministry. But, like, actually, I was like, oh, you're like, a really good person.

[Luke Smallbone]

To her point. She. She gives me the shoes. And so you're kind of thinking as a man, like, maybe this is the moment she lingers, you know, and she walks away.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Oh, you just dropped the shoes.

[Luke Smallbone]

I left the conversation probably last a minute 30.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Oh, my God.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I was very anxious. Like, I was like, I was just like, Just here. I'm so sorry. You're so nice. Like, bless you and your ministry. I hope this helps you. Bye. Like, I just.

[Luke Smallbone]

She did.

[Courtney Smallbone]

I was so awkward.

[Luke Smallbone]

I get home with the shoes, and where our kind of love story, you know, bloomed and blossomed from there was the shoes were the wrong size.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

And so this is straight up Cinderella backwards.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Oh, my gosh, the shoe fits.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

And, like, he couldn't afford the shoe, so it's like, backwards Cinderella.

[Luke Smallbone]

Did you just watch this movie recently?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Actually, yes, I did, because Haven loves it. Wow. I'm in the right mind. Y' all haven't ever thought about that?

[Luke Smallbone]

Never thought about that? We told this story.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Cinderella's story has been a very vital.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Part of our relationship. Wait.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

This is so sweet. Okay, so how did it end up sparking?

[Luke Smallbone]

So then when I got back to the house, I realized they were the wrong size, and so I didn't know what else to do other than Facebook her, which was pretty new at the time.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

And so I Facebooked her, and I was like, hey, you know, thank you so much. I mean, I think I've still got those letters, actually.

[Courtney Smallbone]

You printed them out, which is so sweet.

[Luke Smallbone]

I printed them out for, like, a dating gift, and I burnt the edges, which was hard, by the way. And so we. And it's funny, actually, to do that because you look back on how you write, and you. And you're like, wow. I was definitely behaving in a way.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That isn't, like, this is my best behavior diving.

[Luke Smallbone]

So anyway, I Facebooked her, and she said, well, this is when I work. And then I went back in, we exchanged the shoes, and then she was helping out, or. So I was helping out with a youth ministry, and then she had been helping out a little bit with it as well. And so I was like, well, why don't we get, you know, kind of help out, do that together a little bit? And we were really good friends for about six months. I went to Australia during that time, and we just once again, wrote kind of emails back and forth. Honestly, we didn't talk, I don't think, like, on the phone while I was in Australia.

[Courtney Smallbone]

No, we were kind of, like, keeping it under wraps because it was like, a friendship. But, like, both of our families, they're both strong. They would be very like, what's going on? And it just was like, you know, just.

[Luke Smallbone]

So speaking of Cinderella, now that you say this, when I landed back. When I landed back into America, the pastor of the church, his daughter was getting married, and our family was invited to go. And mom and dad were like, well, Luke, you know, if you want to come to the wedding, you know, you guys are all invited. And I was like, yo, I'm gonna go. And they were a little like, why is Luke wanting to come to this wedding? You know? And I thought, I think Courtney will be there.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Oh, that's our wedding.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Was.

[Luke Smallbone]

But hold it, hold it. This is what's really is truly sweet. Now that I'm. You're getting the elongated version.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's why podcasts are the best. You get the whole story.

[Luke Smallbone]

We go to the wedding and we see each other. We got mutual friends there. We hang out a little bit, and then the dance floor opens up. All right. And we danced. Literally, I think we were the last couple on the dance floor. And there was a. I think the pastor, whose daughter was getting married actually said, pretty sure Luke and Courtney are having more fun than the bride and groom.

[Courtney Smallbone]

The bride and groom sat down and started watching us.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

At that point.

[Courtney Smallbone]

It was pretty like.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

And then y' all weren't, like, really dating?

[Luke Smallbone]

Nope, we weren't dating. And so, like, my brother. I had another brother that was there, Daniel, and he was like, called me, I think, on the way home, and he was like, what just happened there?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

What was that?

[Courtney Smallbone]

A lot of everyone was like, what is happening?

[Luke Smallbone]

What is happening?

[Courtney Smallbone]

I think he took a video on it on his phone. Yeah, he took a bit because he's like, something is happening. Isn't that cute? All on a dance floor.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wait, that is so cute. And that is so Cinderella. This is amazing.

[Luke Smallbone]

Hey. I've never heard anybody else say it.

[Courtney Smallbone]

And I've never even thought, never connected. That. That's really.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I love that so much. Y is so sweet. And it's really cool because so many girls say that part of the story. And I had a similar story where it's like, you know, it's me and the Lord. I'm not gonna date. And then, like, he walks right into the shoe store and, like, this is what happens. Your journey at that point was interesting around 19, because you came from a Christian family. You, you know, knew God your whole life. But that was maybe right after a time you were questioning your faith. Can you share a little bit about what that looked like for you?

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. So I'm a third generation pastor's kid, and so I've grown up in the church, and there's such beauty to that, that. But you hit these points in your own life, your own walk. And so we were part of an amazing church in Florida. And I was on staff for a while and I just hit this crisis of faith. Like, what do I actually believe about God? And like God didn't feel personal to me. I was like, man, is he like a business guy that like, I have to sit down, I have to make an appointment. Like, are you with me? Like, I had these questions like, are you with me? Brushing my teeth. Like, like I want to be intimate with you. Like, I want to know you. And until, until that, that I'm out. Like, I'm such an all in person that I was like, until I know you. Yeah, I'm. I'm done. Like, so I was a self professed, like atheist. Like, I literally was like, I don't want what other people are telling me. I don't want any of this. Like, I want to know you. Yeah. So that took me through a really hard season of a lot of darkness, which was a gift. And that's when I actually was diagnosed with a rare disease. And not saying that God caused it, but he allowed it. Right. For formation to happen in my life. And what I knew about him after that happened was you are who you say you are and you do what you say you will do. You can have my life. Like, I'm all in. Because before that, you know, I was kind of like, like playing, playing a game. Like it's performance. And then I couldn't perform anymore. I was like, this will kill me. Which I think that's what religion is, like, that kills you. I mean, religion killed Jesus. So I think this crisis was not, not as horrible as I felt maybe in the time, like some shame and stuff. I think it's just very like, do you want the real thing?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah.

[Courtney Smallbone]

And so after that point I was like, you've got me. Like, I'm all in. Like I believe it not because of anyone else and it became mine. And so after that point, I just. While I was recovering from really horrible disease. So I was really weak and I had worked in ministry my whole life and then I walked by journeys and God was like, I want you to work here for a few months. And I'm like, why? Like, I've never done this before. Right. But I was healing and trying to get into like some kind of, of rhythm of life again. And I thought, oh, it's just me and him. Like, it's me and God. And like I just, I have a lot of maybe time to make up too with God. And then, you know, Luke came in. Yep.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Stumbled his way.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Truly, Are you a helm?

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. But yeah, so that was a bit of my like precursor to that time. Was this like a man, just a valley or just even like this deep desert season and you can feel so vulnerable and sensitive after that. Yeah, so I was very like vulnerable after that.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah. Starting something new is exciting, but it can also be pretty scary. Before I started low, I had all the what ifs, what if no one listens? What if I fail? What if I do all this work and it goes nowhere? And that's why having the right tools matter. And that's where Shopify comes in in. Shopify is a commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. From major names you already know and love to brands you're about to fall in love with. For us, LOW runs on Shopify and my team loves how easy it is to make online sales. From managing products to handling orders, everything just works the way you need it to. Shopify gives you tons of amazing templates to choose from. So building a beautiful online store to match your brand style is actually easy. Plus, with built in AI tools for marketing and selling, you keep everything in one place. So your not juggling a million platforms. And that iconic purple shop pay button helps turn more cards into actual sales. And hello, online merch and my family's business Duck commander are both powered by Shopify. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Whoa. Go to shopify.com Whoa. Again that shopify.com Whoa. I think it's so cool to share that side of your story because people look at y' all and a lot of people know your story and they hear you say, you know, you're a pastor's kid and grew up in church and it can be easy to be like, oh, match made in heaven. This all worked out great. Easy. And it's like, no. There's so many layers and so much depth to yalls story. And I think it's cool too. Just for so many people listening who have grown up in the church or even parents or pastors to go, it's okay to ask God those questions for yourself. And like you, your faith has to become personal. It has to become your own for it to be real real and to have a true foundation. And so even though that's like scary water to step in, it's like you, you have to be willing to step there so that you can meet God there too. And so I think it's so cool that you share your story. Y' all this new song out ever and ever before. And that's one of those songs. It's like, it's so good. I'm listening to it. I'm like, this is amazing. But there's, like, layers to the words that y' all are singing. Knowing Yalls story, I'm like, wow, this is so cool. Knowing the context because y' all had this, like, Cinderella story. You're dancing on the dance floor, everything's magic. Everyone's taking pictures. Like, this is amazing. But y' all had some really tough first couple years of marriage. Like, y' all have said it. We lived out our vows in our early 20s. Not a lot of people had to walk through that. So take us to y' all getting married and the first couple years.

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah, so we got married. We, you know, had, in some cases, yeah, that. That wonderful beginning, but in some cases, when. And most people don't really know this, but as soon as I really started actively in music, life got particularly complex. And it got complex, and it got really, really difficult. And circumstantially, our life got really, really tough. You know, pretty soon after we were married. We were married in 2010, in 2012, which was when Jude was born. A few months kind of prior to when he was born, I kind of got diagnosed with. With the autoimmune disease and at some levels, probably ignored some of the symptoms and some of the things that were going on. And I got to a point where I got really, really sick, actually had to come off the road for about three months, and I got down to about 125 pounds, and I'm six foot four. And so I was probably about 40 to 50 pounds under what they would just your base level weight should be. And it got scary there for quite a while. And so, yeah, we, you know, it's. You know, so I got a newborn baby, you know, we do. He's six months old. I'm so weak that I can't even hold him. And you're sitting there like, wow, is this the fairy tale? You know, is this. And then it got so scary to where it got to, well, am I gonna be able to, like, hang on and actually live? And are we gonna be able to live through this? And so there was one particular where. And, you know, marriage has this unique way, and it's a real. An amazing thing that God gives you is it's a reflection period of who you are. And the truth is, you get married and you have all of these hopes and dreams for your life, but it's not until you really get into it that you start to see, like, wow, I've got, like, wounds and things that I never really thought that I had. And not because she's necessarily saying, look at the wound in your life, but because of the way that you live your life. You. And I think I had gotten to a point where I was trying to work so hard, trying to be so diligent with what God had given us and what we were trying to steward, that I'll never forget coming back off of a tour once. And I said to Courtney, I sat on a couch and I said, is it okay that I'm just sitting down? And she was like, what do you mean? I was like, well, I don't think I have anything to do right now. I probably should be doing something. And I remember she just kind of said, like, just. Just listen to yourself. That sounds a little insane, right? And that's what drove me into, you know, getting very, very sick. You know, a few years after that, we had a scenario where we nearly lost our son Leo. He was two months old, and, you know, he was asleep in. In the bed. And Courtney, you know, felt this. Hey, he's taking a nap. Go check on him. Go checks on him. He's got blood coming out of his nose, and he's not breathing. You know, we go out to. She. You know, I was mowing the lawn. She screams, you know, call 91 1. Call 9 1. We have him on the. On our driveway. I still remember the spot where he was, and he's not breathing. And she just starts praying these amazing prayers over him. You know, basically demanding. I've never heard anyone pray like it. Demanding that God brings him back.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Luke Smallbone]

And, you know, he at some point takes a gulp of air. I called the ambulance during this time, and they were like, we'll be there in five minutes. And you're like, oh, that's not gonna work. Just soon after that, he starts breathing again. And so we go to the hospital. We get to. We live in a small town similar to Monroe, and they were like, you've got to go to the bigger town. So we went to Vanderbilt Hospital, and while we were in the ER there, they were like, hey, do you realize what he's got going on with his head? And we're like, no. And they said, well, he's got something called craniosynostosis, which is when your child's head fuses shut. Gut. And they're like, at. He's so small that we can't do the surgery now, but it's six months. He's gonna have to have a skull reconstruction surgery.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Whoa.

[Luke Smallbone]

And, you know, so in some cases, you're like, the hits keep on coming. And. And so we walked through that. That process together. And, you know, there's obviously, there's. There's more and more stories inside of that. And so There was about 10 years, you know. You know, just even a few years ago, I had to have vocal surgery. You know, I couldn't speak for however long. And, you know, there's. There's been. There's been things. But speaking to marriage, I don't know too many. There's other people that have these stories, right? Suffering will find you in life. It's guaranteed. But I will say what we've built in our marriage is we've built marriage equity. And sometimes you gotta spend it. And I think when you get into the hard things like this, and you're like, hey, I'm still here. I mean, when I was sick, it wasn't pretty. This is ugly stuff. The disease I had is disgusting. It's not on. She never left. You know, you go through that nurse taking your child to go do a surgery that they're saying he's gonna be in, you know, hospital for recovery for a week to 10 days. And we don't, you know, should be okay. But yeah, and you're, you know, walking out, and there's the collapse for both of us of, like, did we just make the right decision? You know, all these things, you get to the other side of the. And there's like, we lived out our vows. We had the gift of living out our vows in our 20s. And, you know, in some cases, we sit here today getting to reflect on that, in some cases, you know, laugh about some stories, but then actually look at the goodness of who Jesus is. Because sometimes the greatest way God can love you is actually by allowing you to go through some struggle. We are repulsed by the idea of pain and suffering in this world. But the greatest things, the greatest stories I ever read in the Bible, I hear where they went through some significant struggle. And struggle produces something in people's life. It produces character. It produces perseverance, and it ends up with hope. If you want hope, you're probably going to actually have to walk through some struggle. Because hope in the Greek, actually, you can translate it to certainty. So if struggle produces perseverance, perseverance, character, character, hope, you have to go through some struggle for it to produce certainty in your life.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That is good. It makes me think of your prayer of, like, God, I wanna know you personally. And then you said, God didn't give you that, but he allowed that. And then on the outcome of it, you knew him personally. And so that's so real. If you want hope, if you wanna know God personally, sometimes that does come with struggle. But you don't have to. Don't make that. I think some people will hear that and go, okay, well, then I'm not gonna pray for that. Like, I don't want that. But it's like, no, because you come out. You come out with certainty.

[Luke Smallbone]

I think God uses everyone's different circumstances different ways, right? Some people don't have this story, but their love for Jesus is radical. It doesn't always go that way. But what I will say is another scripture even is talking about Courtney's story, which is work out your faith with fear and trembling. Fearing trembling doesn't necessarily always mean a deathly disease, but it does mean that you're. You have to work it out. You have to get to a desperation point. You have to get to a point of going, I'm sinful. I need someone in my life that can triumph over sin. That's when reliance and faith is produced. And at the end of the day, when I think God wants the most from us, he wants faithfulness. He wants to say, how do you feel the most loved by your children when you tell them to do something and they go, aye, aye, captain.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah. You're like.

[Luke Smallbone]

You're like, this is amazing. I'm an incredible parent. But that's when you feel really loved. I think it's similar with God when we hear something from God and we're like, this feels risky. This feels whatever. But I'm gonna go do this because it produces something significant in our lives.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It's great. I just read through for anyone doing the Bible recap out there. We just got through Job, and I loved the. Charlie Cobble was kind of giving some advice in the midst of it, and she was like, I always tell people, like, you can quit before you start reading Job, or you can quit like. Or you have to finish it. You can't quit in the middle. Like, you have to finish it. And I was like, man, that's so real. Because in the middle you're like, oh, this is like another conversation, another bad thing, another whatever. And then you get to the end and it's like, what does Job know? He knows that, like, God is real. He knows his redeemer lives. Like, he knows, like, him so personally. And it's not even just about that God gave back. It was about, like, him knowing God. And it really was, like, so cool that she said that in that middle part, because I remember thinking, like, okay, this is, like, rough, but then you have to get to the end. And it's such a struggle and a wrestle. But at the end, it comes into, like, I know him personally, and I'm not going to question you anymore. Whenever God comes to Job and he's like, you want to. You want to keep questioning me? Like, were you there when the universe was created? Were you there? You know, it's like, it's the most amazing mic drop.

[Courtney Smallbone]

You're right.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It is a mic drop. It's so good. No. Thank you for sharing that. All of that. Your all story is so, so wild. And it's so beautiful that you share because it gives hope to so many people. One thing I heard y' all say in an interview you did one time was your marriage counseling. Before you got married, y' all discovered something about your relationship that was a blessing. Do you know what I'm talking about? And can y' all speak to that? It was kind of the idea that y' all were able to resolve conflict, and I think that that's actually really cool to look back.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Was it our high scores?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Your high scores? Your high scores. Because I do think that a lot of people are afraid to, like, argue, and, like, they think, oh, if I'm arguing, it's bad. But I think, like, what y' all were talking about.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Conflict resolution.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Conflict resolution. Because I think that that's a really cool thing that y' all noted before you even got married.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

And then when you stepped into marriage, y' all didn't know everything that you were going to walk through. But, like, praise God, you already had a steady, like, strong relationship going in that was willing to kind of talk about the hard stuff. Winter mornings move slower in our house. It's darker, colder, and honestly, a little harder to just get yourself going for the day. And so I've tried to be intentional about leaning into small grounding habits. And AG1 is one of those for us. AG1 Next Gen is a daily health drink with more than 75 ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and superfoods. Basically all the things that help fill common nutrient gaps in adults while supporting gut health, all without juggling a bunch of supplements. Supplements. It's great to start your morning off with AG1. It's just one scoop in cold water, and it feels like I am setting a solid foundation for a Busy day. It's not about doing everything perfectly. It's about having one simple habit that you can go back to. No matter how crazy your day gets, AG1 fits into your real life. Whether your mornings are calm or chaotic, when routine shift and Schedules aren't predictable, AG1 is there. And even whenever I'm traveling, AG1 makes it so simple for me with travel packs. Asia One really is awesome. It's so well rounded for me. I love that I don't have to have a bunch of different supplements because it's just one thing that helps everything. Not only does it help with my energy and brain fog, but also gut health, which I'm big on. I definitely notice a huge difference when my gut is healthy. So if you want a simple way to support your health this winter, AG1 makes it easy. Visit drink ag1.com whoo. To get three AG1 travel packs, three AGZ travel packs, and vitamin D3 plus K2 free in your welcome kit with your first subscription order. Again, that's drink ag1.com whoo.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. I mean, communication. I think that's what came up the most, was our communication level. And that's so crazy because that. I mean, we were almost married now 16 years, so we've got communication. But, like, but that's so important because a lot of people forget the basic things. They actually don't do the foundational things, whether that's in their health or their lives or their marriages. And they're like, but I want that. But I don't want to have to really do anything to get there. And so. So that doesn't work. Like, the water is. The grass is greener where you water it. So same with marriage is like, if I want to feel connected to you, I have to do something to go.

[Luke Smallbone]

To Monroe and stay at the hotel Monroe.

[Courtney Smallbone]

If someone has to do it, this is what send me. But it's like, communication is so bedrock. So that means, like, when you're talking about conflict, you know, resolving that, you actually have to say the hard thing.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Y.

[Courtney Smallbone]

You have to say the truth. And the only way to do that is to be like, hey, when you did that, that hurt me because of this. But I know it's not fully you, but I have this wound, this, like, little Courtney wound. And when you did that, this is what happened. And I know that's scary. It doesn't feel good at first, but on the other side, it's whole and it's. There's healing. But you have to let your spouse, who is the sacred Place. This is the holiest of holies. Come close to and show them your wounds. And God has a way of using your spouse to come in, sometimes with a little scalpel, sometimes with an alcohol pad. You know what I'm saying? To, like, clean up the pus and all this stuff. And you have to be surrendered. You also have to have zero pride. Like, you can't puff yourself up. You have to be like flat as a pancake to be like. I feel ridiculous for even saying this because there's been so many times where I'm like, babe, I know I sound ridiculous, but I feel insecure about. Boom, boom, boom, boom. What happens when we bring things to the light? Like, it says, confess your sins to one another and be healed. We just talked about this last night. Something about saying the truth in safe places. And that is the same for marriage. That's the same in deep relationships, in your counseling relationships. It's just saying those things in a safe place has a way of being able to complete it, where we get stuck. We get stuck in woundedness. We get stuck in our own narratives. And my goodness, when you get married, he has a narrative, and I have a narrative. He has a family culture. I have a family culture. God's hilarious. And he's like, and you guys are gonna become. You are one, but you're gonna become even more one. And how do you do that? I really believe it's through that. Through resolving conflict that breeds intimacy.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's true.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Because think about it. I feel closer to you when we go through that. I feel closer to a best friend when I'm like, whoa, can I just be. And then there's like this, oh, I didn't mean to hurt you. Or, you know, and then you're like, oh, you're stronger that way. It's like the opposite of what your flesh wants to do.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yep.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Your flesh is like, run, hide, put up a wall. Wall of China. Self protect, self protect. Which I would be like, my gosh, like, definitely, I was the self protective prototype. And now I'm like, I'm just like.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Because you see the beauty on the other side now. It's like, you trust the process now. And that Christian and I have just been talking that because we're not quite as far along as y' all are, but about seven years in, and we're.

[Luke Smallbone]

Like, how many kids you guys got now?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

We have three. Yes. We have four and a half, two and a half, and five and a half months. So all tears apart. It's so sweet, so wild. And so sweet, as you guys know. But we were talking about just, like, what we've been through in the past seven years and kind of got thrown into the fire and a lot of things and had a lot of hard conversations and probably more counseling than a lot of young people do and all the different stuff. Um, but we were looking at each other the other night, and we were like, wow, like, look at how far we've come. And, like, what. Where our relationship is at. And we were like. We didn't even expect to see this much. I guess, like, fruit, you could say this soon. Like, we thought all this hard work, we'll see one day. Like, we knew that, but how sweet that we're already seeing it. And, like, the people that we are now, we're, like, so proud of. Cause we're like, wow, we really worked to get here. We really worked hard to get here. And I'm, like, so thankful for that. And so, yeah, you trust the process now. And now it doesn't feel so scary to open up and say things. And, you know, it might burn. You know, it might hurt a little bit, but you're like, I know it's gonna make it better. And even, like, this is funny, but the haircut thing, I know I'm going back to the mom, but even that, like, to have a spouse where it's like, you have such open communication that you can say those things. And I remember at one point in the journey of it, I was like, can I just be honest? I'm like, I think it's because I'm scared. I'm gonna be insecure. Like, I'm scared if I don't. If I don't like it, then I'm gonna be insecure about the way I look. And I don't want to feel insecure. Like, even, like, little stuff like that that you can talk to with your spouse and say, I'm just gon. And I don't want to feel that way, but that's just the truth. And then they can speak truth over you. It's just, like, a beautiful gift to have someone that you can be totally honest with and confess that's not going to meet you with shame, you know? There is therefore no condemnation for those who are found in Christ Jesus. So when someone understands that and goes, okay, I'm going to offer you grace, but also truth, and I'm going to speak truth over your life. It's an amazing gift. So I love that you shared that. Okay, we're going back into the deep end because you Said.

[Luke Smallbone]

Said.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Once things are brought into the light, obviously it's exposed and freedom comes. You talk about how your life got thrown into the light at one point of your life with anxiety and overcoming addiction and stuff. And I love how you share this part of your life because you were saying in the interview that I saw, you were like, there are so many, like, miracle stories that I have. I wish that could just be the thing everyone knew about me. But God's going to use this. And that seems to be the case oftentimes. Can you talk about that a little?

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah, it's. It's actually funny because I. That's like, the first story that hits like a literal news headline is like, your deepest shame and your sin.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That was me, too.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Fun times, right? So fun. But God is so good. Like, he's so trustworthy. And so that story, I call it the Burn the Ship story because he wrote a song ending up about that season in my life that became an album.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I didn't even realize it was that. No, because I remember getting the PR from Burn the Ship and I had, like, a moment. I literally went out, had a moment, and burnt the ship. Like, I physically put the match on the ship. So that's crazy. Wow.

[Courtney Smallbone]

That was birthed out of my story.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Yeah. So in that season, obviously had a rare disease and healed. Right. But I had emotional issues. I had trauma. I had panic attacks. Like, my nervous system was broken, too, and I didn't know what to do with it. There weren't, like, conversations at that time, too. That. That was like, Gosh, 2007. So, like, this. This wasn't like a conversation. And so I just felt like I had to deal with it. And I felt shame for that. And I just kept trucking on and thinking it would go away. Doesn't go away. We get married. Oh. I would get up in the middle of the night and pace and I would just. Oh, gosh. Just overcome with anxiety. And then, like, torment started coming in because it's mind, body and spirit. And so at that time, like, he got super sad sick. That re triggered me because it was my deepest pain that I hadn't dealt with yet. And now my husband. I was so mad. I was so mad at God. I was like, how dare you? Like, yeah, I remember being in our bathroom, being like, God, I was 18 and, like, I got a rare disease and I felt like that was enough. That was enough suffering in my head. But no, we're going to add on the person you actually love more than yourself. And I was so triggered by it. And I was taking care of him, too. So, like, I was a nurse doing all kinds of things and injections and all the things. And so that re triggered me because even the smell of an alcohol swab when you're that, like, ptsd, it was just like an open wound. I was bleeding out, like, emotionally, my spirit, just everything. And I get pregnant with Jude, and you add that on. So I'm like a new mom. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm taking care of you. So I'm not really. Like, I'm connected, but I'm not. I'm not that connected because I'm scared. Like, I didn't know what I was doing. So just like, let's heap on some more pressure and trauma. And then, you know, freaking country's taking off.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Boom.

[Courtney Smallbone]

You're just like, gosh, it's just so much. And then after that, he starts to get a bit better. I know he went back out on tour. I get pregnant again with Phoenix, and I get horrible morning sickness. Like, this is the straw that broke the camel's back. And so I'm pregnant with Phoenix, and I. I will never forget that feeling of being like, I am utterly broken.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Like, I'm scared. I don't know what to do. But when I got pregnant with him, I was taking these pills to help with the nausea and everything. And sometimes this prescription can bother your serotonin levels. It can kind of make you a little bit. A little crazy. Like. Like, if you already have anxiety issues and all this other or even slight depression, it will amplify that. And I didn't know that, but I was taking it. So I would take it to calm down, and then I would take more because it was like, my only thing it felt. It was my strong tower. It was my safety, because I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel safe in my body. I didn't feel safe with you at that time because I was the caretaker. I didn't feel safe in the environments we were in. Oh, my gosh. We'd be in arenas, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, get me out of here. Like, just too much for the senses. Go to the mall, leave grocery stores. Anyone who's left a grocery cart at a grocery store because of your nerve nervous system. Been there. And so I start taking more and more medicine. And the midwives don't. They don't really know. Like, they're not fully aware. They're just like, yeah. And I was abusing it. I mean, I was abusing other things to calm me down too, but I was so not connected to myself that I didn't think it was wrong. I was surviving. And so. So I was trying to keep myself safe. And so there was a breaking point where I was like, I can't do this anymore. I was starting to feel suicidal. I felt tormented, like, literally tormented. Like the spirit of fear is a real spirit and it wants to take you out. And it was real close. It was right there. And I couldn't, couldn't. It's like, I don't know what else to do. Like, this is like fighting for my life. And so I tried to get off the pills by myself. And that was awful because, you know, you have like, you're shaking and anyone who's like detoxed from something like that. And Luke was in, he was at a show in Texas. And I called and I actually said, hey, I'm not okay. He didn't know fully I was doing that with pills. Like, I was, I was. Yeah, it was all me. And I told him everything. I said, hey, I've been doing this. I need help. I can't do this by myself. I'm scared. I feel suicidal. Like, I need you. I think I've never asked you to come home. I said, I need you to come home. And so I actually called one of my good friends, mentor, she was a counselor, and I asked her opinion on what to do. And she knew of a rehab, a local rehab, rehab, and Luke came home. And that was one of the most humbling experiences I had. Like, you know, I'm so pregnant with our second child at this point with Phoenix. And like we're walking into the rehab center and you're like, this is the bottom. Like this. I've. I've found the basement level. And you know, you give them your keys and everything and you're just like, okay. But at this point you're so, so broken that you're like, you just need help. And it was huge because I didn't ask for help up until that point in my life. I just never did. This episode is brought to you by Greenlight. Get this. Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight, you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing. And this investment costs less than that. After school, treat, start, prioritizing their financial education and future Today with a risk free [e-mail] Spotify greenlight.com Spotify and I knew that there was something there of like, you just think you got to take it on and shove it down and keep going. And I was really good at that. Like, I would probably pride myself in that. Like, I can just keep going and then. But you know what? God didn't ask that of me. Yeah. And I. And when I went into rehab, I found God's heart. And there were so many other believers there who felt shame for other things that they were there for. And I feel like God's heart was not for me to stay in line and to be. To keep on heaviness. It was like, let him close to your broken heart. Why are you doing what you're doing? Because it's never about addiction. It's about longing. What are you doing with your longing? What are you doing with it? I was longing for safety. And so that was my thing. Other people have other longings and they're filling it through pornography, through gambling, through an eating disorder. It's all the same route. And so it was actually one of the most freeing things in my life once I got out of shame and.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

I got out of.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Of beating myself up. And I just fully surrendered. Like, God, I can't make myself good. I can't make myself not sin. Like, it's not on me.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Like, I actually feel like I received grace in this season where I was like, it's not about my performance. It's not about me even sticking, keeping everything together. That's not my job. And so I just surrendered everything. And in that season, it's funny because our child's name is Phoenix, which means rise up from the ashes. And we would do these sessions before we would break out in this rehab center, and they would say, I got to know everyone very well. And they would say, phoenix, may we rise up from the ashes too. Wow. So I knew I was like, I'm carrying Phoenix. I'm in my Phoenix season. But we have to let it go to ashes for it to become beauty. We have to let it all just let it die for it to resurrect. Like, a lot of our problem is going halfway for whatever reason. We're scared, we're ashamed, we feel prideful. Like, what will people think?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It's really good.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Let it die, let it burn. Because then God can do so much with it.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Courtney Smallbone]

And so that season was like, it was a long, excruciating season because there's miracles, but then there's like, the slow healing. So, like, you have the counselors, right? You have the physical part of it that you're walking out. There were insane miracles of, like, I used to have, gosh, more than eight panic attacks a day. And then the next day, I didn't. Like, there was fast miracles and then slow, grueling, walk out your healing. And God is good in both. And God was after my heart in both. He literally was like, I can do that here, but here I want you to know me. Like, it's all about knowing him. He's like, I want you to know me that I. I'm like a safe father to you. And that I wanna mend every broken place. And sometimes that takes time. We want fast food, healing, fast food, miracles, fast food, everything. And God's like, we're gonna simmer, we're gonna simmer here. And it's actually his goodness to do that. And so in this season, Luke wrote a song called Burn the Ships, which talks. The bridge says, flush the pills Face the fear Feel the waves disappear I clean, I'm born again My hopeful lungs will breathe again and it's talking about stepping into a new day. Like, burn the past, it's complete burning. Because we're not going to walk into the new if the old is still hanging there. Like, it's just human nature. If we know it's there, we're going to go back. So I had to get rid of everything in the house. There was a time where I was like, I got to get rid of everything. At that time, a lot tempted me. It's like, get rid of Benadryl, get rid of anything. That could just be a little hook, right? When you're just sensitive. And that can be different for so many people. But God honors that. He's like, you're all in. Like, you're gonna actually do it. But you have to, because the flesh has to be disciplined because the spirit wants to, but the flesh is weak. And so you have to. Well, it says, like, beat it into submission of, like, you will obey Christ. You will not take those pills. Especially when you're like. Like, literally, you're just like, I want to. And I was detoxing. And you want to, but you will not. It's this thing that happens. And so in that season, what was so cool, it was enough for God to heal me. It was enough for him to restore me and redeem me in a place in my life that felt like my greatest shame has become my greatest beauty. But Then that he would make a song, and then we would see it multiple multiplied.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Courtney Smallbone]

Like, people. I. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like, you didn't.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Right?

[Courtney Smallbone]

Like, he's so good and like, to see people free. People are free. But it's the. It's the crushing that creates the oil. It's the crushing that creates the oil. So it's like, he's so good with our crushing that he's like. And now we will just, like, spread it around. Cause that's who. He's a God of multiplication. He didn't have to.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

So good. This is so helpful. This is so helpful. Like, I was gonna say walk people through how you come out of that. And then you were like, counselors, this, that. Like, you went through everything. Mind, body, spirit. This podcast started from the heart of. We want to be a sister and a friend to those who don't have one. And that was the most ultimate sister and a friend moment to share with everyone listening what it looks like to really go through those hard trials. And there are. And God can still be. God is still good, and he is good in the fast miracles and the slow processes. And everything that you're saying is so true to the character of God when you read the Word. I just got through Joseph's story, too, and I was just thinking about, like, it's the ultimate. What you meant to harm me. God actually intended for our good, and then it says so that to provide life for us. So he's talking to his brothers who are scared that he's gonna now turn their back on them now that the father died, and there he might not give them food and everything. He's like, no, no, no. I don't have to take this out on you. There's no revenge. There's nothing needed. Like, what y' all meant to harm me. God actually intended for my good and for life to be preserved. And not only did God mean that for their family, but, like, for this nation, you know? And then you think about even the symbolism and the names and the meanings and, like, that's the same God. And your story is the same God in all of our stories, like Phoenix and this and that and what he did in your life. And now the world is burning ships. And it's like, it's so cool to see the same God in the Bible in our life today. Like, it's the most amazing thing. And we see that when we test it. Testify. So many people are. Are scared to testify because they're scared of the shame that comes with it. But like you said, like, there's no shame on that. Like, I was dead, now I'm alive. Like, I was lost, now I'm found. Like, I'm celebrating what God has done. And so thank you for sharing your story. That was beautiful. I want to ask lastly, because y' all do have this new song, and there was a song with that. What is it like at the end, or maybe even in the middle of these tough seasons of. What is that like, to write a song about it? Like, does that help? Is that like therapy to you? Does it help overcome something? Is it saying, we're looking back on this now and this is what God did. Like, sealing a moment. What is that like?

[Luke Smallbone]

Yeah. So I'll tell you just a brief story about when we nearly lost our son. We have this small little cabin, and there was a porch, and I was kind of just sitting on the porch, and I was just kind of crying out to God. I was like, God, you know, so you take me getting sick, you take this story, you take Leo, and this all happened in about four years time, you know, and so some of these things, like my. My sickness kind of took up a year and a half of our life. This situation, you know, it takes time to work through these things. Then we've got the. So it just felt like one hit after another one hit, you know, just kind of like, whoa. And so I was kind of going. And even actually had a sibling kind of come to me. I was like, well, how do you handle this one? And I was, you know, at the moment, you're kind of like, can you ask a different question?

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Yeah.

[Luke Smallbone]

But what I realized was as I was sitting on the couch on the porch and I was just praying, I was like, God, I don't actually know how to deal with this. I don't know how to. I don't know why the hits keep coming, you know? And I felt God say, and look, you know, sometimes you can get into, was it really God speaking? Was it really? But I think that, you know, as long as we qualify, like, what I think God was speaking to me in that moment was I felt him say, luke, these stories reflect my faithfulness and goodness in your life. So go tell him.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Wow.

[Luke Smallbone]

And so when it comes to songs, I'm not like, there are certain songs that are off limits, maybe, you know, certain stories that it's like, this is just our family stuff or this is just ours. There's certain things, but I think that God gives you testimonies to share them. And so I Kind of just made a decision, you know, on that porch that was like, God could have my stories, you know? And so those stories become songs, you know, ever and ever before was a song that we out engageiversary is February 13th. And so on February 13th, I sung, oh, I love you. Oh, I love you more than ever before. And it felt significant because it was sitting there on an anniversary, kind of like a big moment, and you're starting to reflect on 15, 16 years, and you go, can I make that statement? Is that actually true? Yeah, it's true. Well, the. Then with everything that people know about, not everybody knows these stories, but if they hear these stories and you can get to the end and say, oh, I love you more, more than ever before, that speaks to covenant. That speaks to a love sustained. And the hope is, and for anybody that's watching, the hope is that our marriages reflect once again the goodness and faithfulness of who Jesus is. When you know the true love of who Jesus is, it makes sustained love in marriage that much eas, because you're seeing it lived out in who Jesus is and who God the Father is and who the Holy Spirit is. Because sometimes it feels too much, sometimes it feels too hard. But when you know how dearly loved you are by someone else, it oftentimes gives you the model to love the ones who are closest to you, to love your spouse. And so I think that's always been the hope is to, you know, yeah, it's a love song, but it's. The love song is talking about, in some cases, a far greater love than we can ever come comprehend.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

That's so good. Oh, my gosh, this is so, so good, y'.

[Luke Smallbone]

All.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

It's so helpful, this podcast. I say this sometimes when I'm sitting here, and I'm like, wow, God, thank you so much for allowing us to have these conversations, because it's not just a podcast. Like, this is going to change someone's life. And the word says that, like, the enemy is going to be defeated by the blood of the lamb and the power of our testimony. And so there are people who are listening to this podcast right now. This is going to be the start of a life change. And I just encourage those who are listening, don't let this just be a podcast you listen to and you say, oh, that was good. Okay, maybe one day I'll get help. Like today. Call a friend. Call like. Like, Courtney ditched. That's the first time I ever called him and said, I need help. Like, call the friend today. Reach out to a counselor today. Go to a pastor today. Don't let this just go by. Because freedom is on the other side. Hope is on the other side. Certainty. And you're going to know God so much more than you ever have when you actually decide to dive into, in and get to know him in that personal way. So thank y' all for sharing your story. Thank you for being real. Y' all are the realest deal. And your success makes so much sense. I'm so thankful that God has elevated y' all to the platform that you have so that the world can see such a beautiful family, such a beautiful picture of family and God's faithfulness. So y' all are amazing. Thank you.

[Luke Smallbone]

Appreciate the time.

[Sadie Robertson Huff]

Sa.