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WHOA That's Good Podcast
I Refused to Kneel During the National Anthem & I Have No Regrets | Sadie, Christian, & Jonathan Isaac
00:58:36
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- [00:08]
A
What's up, boy? That's good, fam. Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week.
- [00:13]
B
But per usual, y'all, it is about to get so much better because I have Christian on the podcast with me today, and we get to interview someone that is so awesome.
- [00:23]
A
His story is so incredible. You probably already know this person, but.
- [00:27]
B
We'Re gonna get to know him more. Today we get to have NBA star husband f, Christ follower, founder of Unitus, Jonathan Isaac on the podcast.
- [00:36]
A
Welcome.
- [00:38]
C
Thank you so much for having me. This is legit, like, a blessing, you know, you guys are amazing, and I'm really glad to be here to talk with you guys.
- [00:45]
B
Thank you.
- [00:46]
D
Seriously grateful you're here, man. Thank you so much for being here. This is awesome.
- [00:49]
A
We are pumped to get to know you more, and I get to just.
- [00:53]
B
Dive into your story a little bit, preparing for you to be on, and I'm so inspired. So I can't wait to talk more. But before we get into all that, I have to ask you the question I ask everyone who comes on the Will Let's Give podcast for the first.
- [01:06]
A
Time, and if you aren't prepared for.
- [01:08]
B
This, it will come out of left field. But the question is, Jonathan, what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given?
- [01:16]
C
Yes, I was. I was. I was very prepared for this. So I. I got the drop, and I was thinking, you know, there's so many different things, but I was like, what. What is something that has replayed in my mind for a really long time, and there was two, but there's one that really profound, and it says, what? You are not changing. You're choosing.
- [01:38]
D
Oh, wow, that's good.
- [01:39]
C
And that. That one always stings because I think for me, it's like, you know, you grow up and you have. You have trauma, you have all these things that are a part of the way that you are. And there's a lot of times where it can feel like it's somebody else's fault or not completely your responsibility to tend to or to try to change or to try to work on. And a lot of times we look at God like. God, like, this is how I am. This is how you made me. This is the things that I've been through. But it's like, you know, when we really get to the nitty gritty of and kind of look at ourselves in the mirror, it's hard to come to that realization that, man, what I'm not actively putting into process and trying to strategize and kind of just going. Being intentional about changing. I am choosing those outcomes even when they are detrimental to myself or I've justified them or have kind of sat in those conclusions. I'm choosing that. And.
- [02:34]
B
Yeah, that is good.
- [02:35]
D
That's really good.
- [02:36]
C
Yeah. It hurts.
- [02:37]
B
So good. That hurts. I love how you said, yeah, that one stinks.
- [02:39]
A
That does.
- [02:40]
B
I was thinking about this today because Christian is so. You know, he loves working out. He's disciplined in that. And I have gotten off the train for a while, and I need to get back to it. And when you said that, I was like, man, that is so true. Like, but it's hard to make a change, you know, like, because you get in the pattern of it. You get in the habit of it. And that's like, a small physical example. Obviously, like, what you mentioned is a lot more like an emotional thing is hard to change. But anything. It's hard to, like, if you're going one way, like, go the other. It takes actual intentionality and hard work and being uncomfortable and. But I love that advice. Cause it's so true. Cause I'm like, I'm choosing this, and I know it will make me feel better. I just need to do it. And so you just. You just gave me some good advice that I needed to hear. Tomorrow's my day back.
- [03:27]
D
She receives it.
- [03:28]
B
Tomorrow's my day back. Tomorrow's the day back.
- [03:31]
C
Tomorrow's the day. And start small. Start small. Get the baby steps in.
- [03:35]
B
Hold me to it.
- [03:36]
D
You're not gonna do that on Saturday. Saturday.
- [03:39]
B
Okay. Monday. No, I'm just kidding. Saturday.
- [03:40]
C
See, he knows you. That's how it works.
- [03:43]
D
The week is not gonna roll around, and you're.
- [03:45]
A
I'm too nice to myself.
- [03:46]
B
I'll change it on Monday, okay? Yeah, okay.
- [03:49]
A
Monday.
- [03:49]
B
Monday's the day. Okay. Jonathan, you know, people know you from all kinds of different things. Obviously, you're in the NBA. Incredible bas. Different things that you've stood for, been a part of, created. But we really want to just get to know who you are as a person in your story. So bring us back. What was your upbringing like?
- [04:09]
C
My upbringing. My upbringing started in Bronx, New York. I lived in Bronx, New York, till I was 10. But New York was. It was interesting. It was like, at the time, when I look back at it now, there was parts of it that were pretty dysfunctional just because of the neighborhood that we lived in and some of the things that we had to go through. My parents were amazing. You know, they worked super hard. My dad had us in church all the time trying to get us out of the environment that was kind of around us. But it was, it was just kind of New York culture, you know, to see things and to be around things. And I would say we were pretty naive kids because of the way that we grew up. But because my parents worked so hard, this is one quick story. So my dad was a manager at McDonald's and my mom worked at the hospital. And so she would work all day, all night, it seemed like, you know, the night shift. And my dad would work the night shift as well. So we would have to. And this sounds crazy when I say it, but for us as kids, it wasn't that bad. But now when I look back, it's like, oh, you know, that's rough. And I could see how some of the stuff like that could shape you as you grow up. But we would have to spend the night at the McDonald's.
- [05:17]
B
Wow.
- [05:19]
C
In order for my dad to take us to school in the morning. But for us kids, it was like, we're sleeping at the McDonald's. Like, this was. It was everything right. It was like a. Yes, it was. It was a two story McDonald's. And we could see all the people coming in late at night. You had some characters, you had some weird people, but it was, it was fun. It was just, you know, four brothers and my sister, and we just made it a time. But I would say that, I'd say for me growing up, I was a pretty, you know, quiet, you know, kind of observant kid. I was, I was a little more reserved into myself, but at the same time, I had friends, I like to play sports. And then my parents ended up splitting up when I was 10 and I moved from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida. And that's when the kind of the crux of my story, you know, started to begin, you know, where I started to have some issues and some struggles and, you know, the ultimately led to all of this.
- [06:07]
B
Wow, that's crazy. You know, it's so cool that you said that about, like, looking back, you can see that that was hard, but in the moment it was fun. And I think like, that just speaks to so many parents out there who are like, going through hard situations. It really is how you shape it for your kids, you know, that's what they're going to experience. Because sleeping at a McDonald's, like, that could have been really hard. And the way that your parents portrayed that, it could have made it feel like y'all were really rough in it. But to y'all the way that it was presented as like, we get to sleep at a McDonald's, you know, and like, I feel like so much of life is like just your perspective of it and how you approach it, how you see it. And so that's so cool that, you know, you had that, that memory. I think that's awesome. And then moving to Florida was probably a big pivot from Bronx to Naples.
- [06:50]
C
Yeah, huge.
- [06:50]
B
A little bit different. What was your experience like once you got to Florida? I know you said you kind of wrestle with some stuff, what that looks like.
- [06:57]
C
Yeah, it was, it was rough. It was rough because it's just a complete culture shock. You know, we. We went from, you know, just, frankly, New York was predominantly black and Hispanic, and Naples, Florida was as wide as could be. You know, me, my brothers and a few of the kids. I think it was like 13 kids out of our school at the time was, you know, African American. Everybody else was white. And so it was just difficult to fit in. And, and what, what happened with me was I was trying to fit in and trying to make friends. And horse playing was something that I was so used to doing. And that was, that was how you made friends in the Bronx. You, you, you fight, you rough house. And okay, you're my, you know, you're my friend. But it wasn't, it wasn't like that in Naples.
- [07:40]
B
They weren't receiving it.
- [07:41]
C
They were receiving it. And so I had, I got in trouble quite a bit. But for me, it was innocent in the sense that I want. I was bigger than everybody else. So what I would do is I would grab kids ankles and I would drag them. But for, for me, it was like, oh, we're having so much fun. They're laughing. But I was getting reported and I had this, this real, that kind of ingrained memory. And this is kind of where some of my, you know, issues started. I got in trouble. They took me to the principal's office. You know, they call my mom. My mom comes to the school, she has to leave work, and the principal is like, we can't have your son, like, endangering the lives of our students.
- [08:20]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [08:22]
C
And my mom is like, yo. He's like, you know, he's just a kid. We're transitioning, like, but for the first time, it was like a reality to where it's like I didn't see myself the way everybody else saw me. Wow.
- [08:34]
B
Yeah.
- [08:35]
C
And so it began this like, internal, by kind of facing myself and kind of looking at myself going, you're not Cool. You're not, you know, you don't fit in. You're, you know, you're not all these things. And it started this kind of anxiety in me of just like, okay, I need to start working. I need to work hard for the approval of everybody around me. And it set me on this, you know, really disastrous path, honestly. But, you know, part of the reason why I'm here right now, where it was like my goal in my mind from then on, was when I go to school, how do I make friends? How do I get kids to like me? What do I. So I became the class clown. I became the, you know, the kid that tried to make everybody laugh. And it was really just this deep seated yearning for I need to be loved, I need to be seen, I need to be embraced. And it was really hard to come by.
- [09:26]
B
Man, that's so real.
- [09:28]
D
Do you remember how tall you were when you were 10?
- [09:31]
C
No. But if I showed you a baby picture when I was 2 years old, you would cry. It was like I was five, was. I was big. I was big. Yeah, I was pretty tall.
- [09:41]
D
So when you moved to Florida, how did you get like, how did kind of, you know, wrestling with that anxiety, how did that kind of transition to basketball and when you kind of started to play basketball more competitively?
- [09:58]
A
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- [11:00]
B
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A
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- [11:35]
C
Well, what was interesting is that basketball became like an antidote where it was like where I'm. I'm trying to figure, okay, how can I get these, you know, these kids to like me and be my friend? Once I started to play basketball a little bit and I started to get better at it, it was like, oh, this is the ticket.
- [11:53]
A
This is the key.
- [11:54]
C
And so. Right. And so I became the number one player in the state of Florida. You know, I had, you know, all the girls wanted to hang out with me, all the guys wanted me to be on their teams. You know, we were a really great travel team. And that was kind of how I dealt with. Well, that's. That's how I masked it is the right way to say it.
- [12:12]
B
That's good.
- [12:12]
C
I. I kind of developed this Persona of, you know, I'm the cool guy. I mean, I got everything together. But behind the scenes, I was just a terrified kid of people finding out how terrified I was. And so that, that, that basketball Persona was like this, you know, this thing that I could put in front of everybody. Behind the scenes, I was. I was. I was broken. And it came out all the time in ways that I couldn't manage. And so in high school, I remember just, you know, having these episodes of just bawling my eyes out before games because it was like, I'm about to walk into this moment that. That is either going to reveal to everybody else how afraid I am, and they're going to see it. They're going to see the chink in my armor. And it was. It was just this. This high anxiety moment. And it led all through high school to really, the. I guess the explosion of it was when I got to Florida State. So I'm the number one player in the state of Florida. I'm going to Florida State. I'm their highest recruit in years for the school. So everybody's expecting me to be this guy. You're the big man on campus. And I just wasn't ready for it. And even though I tried to speak like I was ready for it, I tried to show up like I was ready for it behind the scenes, my body knew that I wasn't ready for it. And so I would have panic attacks. So think of the mental space of I'm the guy and, you know, everybody's on the team is kind of looking at me. We had some other great guys on the team too, so it wasn't like it was all on me, but I was definitely somebody that they were like, you're gonna. You're gonna be the one that's gonna lead us, you know, to. To. To kind of great things in the tournament and everything. And so I started having these episodes at breakfast time where I'd be eating and I. I would just freeze and I couldn't move, couldn't do anything, couldn't eat. And my teammates would be like, like one of my teammates, like, you okay? It would kind of like break out of it. I'd be like, yeah, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And then we had this, this kind of big moment where I'm. It's me and a teammate and we are in like study hall and I have like a pass out episode where I don't know what's happening. Like, that ambulance needs to come and get me. The. The school, the team tried to keep it really under wraps. My family didn't know back home, and they were like, yo, you know, kind of what's going on? And that was the first time I had an opportunity to talk to somebody. And they had me. They had me go see a psychologist, right? And I'm sitting with this guy and he's saying to me, like, what could possibly be wrong with you? Like, these are his words. This is the therapist. He's like, I'm sure you do fine with the ladies. I'm like, you're gonna be a top 10 pick in the draft. Like, what is going on? And I was just like, I don't know. And so started anxiety medication. So number one player in the state of Florida at Florida State on anxiety medication. One trainer knows, one teammate knows, and the coach knows. And I'm just trying to get through the season. And it was this weird thing where the first half of games I would play awful. Like, I'd air ball my shots. But we created this kind of system where at halftime the team would go in one direction And I would go in another direction to like this room by myself with the, with the, with one of the assistant coaches and that trainer that knew about it. And I would just cry, cry. And then for some reason, all the anxiety would just leave me once I was able to kind of get all that emotion off of me. And I go into the second half and I, I ball out, I play, I play like myself. And you know, played, you know, played into the point of being, you know, the number, number six pick in the draft.
- [15:33]
B
That's crazy. Yeah. So it's like so cool we're talking about this because we've been talking so much about identity and anxiety recently, and these are like the two things merging in your story. And it's so interesting because I did this poll the other day and I was like, what do you typically find your ident identity in? And it was on Instagram. And so there's like a million different things, but ultimately what. One of the common threads of what people found their identity in was what they found a sense of confidence in. So it's like, I find my identity in this because I'm good at it, or I found my identity in this because I was confident in that version of me or whatever it was. And then so many to attach that with, like, what people thought of me, what people saw me as who people thought I was. And I think so many people make that mistake of like, trying to find their identity and security in what they feel confident in, in their own strength and own ability, AKA like basketball, if you're really good at basketball or whatever your job title is or whatever, you know, whatever cool thing that you got going on for you, it's like, I'm confident in this, so I'm just gonna put like my whole identity in it. And. And then the problem is with that is that then your identity is attached to something that is performance based. And it's all on your ability to muster up a good performance for you to always feel value and always feel worth. And then it's like if people don't perceive you as doing good or people don't perceive you as crushing it, then like, you. Where is your identity? Like, it's. It crashes, it fades. And I think that, like, so many people do that though. It's like in the search for identity, they just attach it to whatever they can just find a little bit of assurance in or a little bit of confidence in. And that's why, like, when people say, you know, I wish my identity was in Jesus, or I want it to be. But I don't even know what that means for it to be in Christ. It's like, no, when your identity is in Christ, the. It's not just saying that to say it and it sounds good. It's like actually forming it to be that because. And it's the greatest thing you can do for your life because it's not on you. It's like, you don't have to perform. You. You get to show up as you, and yet you have this identity based in something that was done for you, paved the way for you. God is your father. You are adopted. You are a child. Like, it's like this. The greatest gift ever to have assurance and something that's not all on you to perform, but your story represents most everybody's story in whatever capacity they live their life in. When you. You talked about, like, going to church as a young kid, and I know how strong your faith is now, but in this time of your life, where was faith in the picture of everything?
- [18:13]
C
Yeah, great, Great question. It was growing up for me, it was just traditional. Like, I. I didn't understand that there was a. A reality to a relationship with God, that it was like, you know, tangible. God knows me and loves me and has. Has did this miraculous, great thing just in order to be connected to me. I didn't understand it that way. It was just kind of rules and. And, you know, this is what we were supposed to do because, you know, you know, God is important and, you know, no slight to my parents. They. They were believers. They. We were in church all the times, but it just wasn't. It wasn't put on the proper platter. And, you know, in my opinion, where it was like, this is. This is a God who loves you and desires to be in community with you. And so for me, it was always just tradition. You know, we went because we were supposed to. We were at an amazing church and youth group when I got to Naples, Florida, and I started to learn a little bit, really more of a foundation of the gospel there and had some great times. But once basketball. Once I started to get that love from basketball and from the people around me, it was. It took over my life in a sense of where it was like, this is. This is where I'm getting that love that I. That I. That I feel like I need. And so, you know, Christianity was just something that was in my back pocket. But there were still seeds, though. There were seeds of understanding where if things weren't going right on the court, I'm gonna switch all my music up and just listen to Christian music, and I'm gonna put the Drake away. I'm gonna put the future away, and I'm just gonna listen to my Christian stuff. And then once I started playing well again, you know, I just ease back in, you know, to do what everybody else is doing. But once I got to the NBA, I was. My mind was gone. I was set on. I want to experience everything that the NBA life has to offer, really, just in following the people that were around.
- [19:55]
D
Me when you were at fsu, because I feel like sometimes we can, like, convince ourselves of this. But do you feel like, number one player in Florida, you're projected to be a top 10 pick? Do you feel like you had kind of convinced yourself of, like, when this happens, I feel like this anxiety is going to go away? Or do you feel like maybe you thought it was going to be heightened if that happened? Or do you feel like, you know, playing your. Your freshman season at Florida State, you kind of had convinced yourself of, well, when I get drafted, whenever I get, you know, all this success and fame in the NBA, I won't be as anxious as I feel now.
- [20:31]
C
I would say, yeah, it was like, I was always expecting that there was going to be a moment where it broke, where it was like, like, like. And it was so interesting, where it was like, I couldn't see myself the way other people saw me. So, like, you know. You know, my teammates or people would be like, yo, you're like, you're so talented. You're so this. You're so that. Like. And they would see me in this light, but I was like, I. I don't see myself that way. And so it was like this thing of, like, okay, this game that I just had, where it was like, I. I had 30 points, now I'm good. Like, now I don't have to be afraid anymore, and I don't have to be nervous anymore. And the next game will be coming up, and this game is over, and I'm already thinking about the next game, and, oh, shoot, now I just played good this game. I'm gonna. So it was like. It was like this thing of, like, I'm waiting for this moment of this grandiose thing, like, I'm gonna play so well that I'll never have to be anxious again or something's gonna happen. And it just never happened. I was always already, like, my teammates are celebrating, the coaches, the fans are celebrating, and I'm like, oh, but I got a game in three days that. That's Gonna be the time that I'm exposed and everybody's gonna know that I'm actually terrified. Terrified. So it'll keep me up, you know, keep me up and just be this kind of this fear cycle that I was living through.
- [21:50]
B
Man, that's so real.
- [21:55]
A
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B
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A
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A
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B
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A
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B
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- [23:12]
B
I struggled with anxiety so much back in the day and same thing. It's like you think, okay, well once I get past this. But it's like, yeah, and then there's gonna be another thing right around the corner that you're gonna have to get past. And the secret is like, life's always gonna be like that. Like there's always gonna be something that's going to make you anxious in the sense of like it's gonna feel bigger than what you think you're capable of doing or whatever.
- [23:37]
A
And I think that's such a good.
- [23:38]
B
Question because I think people either put like a false hope in something like, oh, I'm gonna feel it when this happens, or they have no hope in it and think, I'm just gonna live like this forever. And either one's bad because the false hope is not. And then the coping with it, with the fact that you're always gonna have it, it's like, no, there's so much better for you in life.
- [23:56]
D
You know, I'm saying it's like that. It's like, when I get married, I'm not gonna struggle with this, or when I have kids, I won't feel shame from. So it's like. But you're still. You know, like, those things usually don't ever, like, you try to convince yourself of that, but it never actually can sustain whatever you think it will.
- [24:13]
B
Not in your own strength, not in your own victories, for sure. So when you get to the NBA, you said you were like, all right, it's my time. I'm gonna enj it up. What did that season for you look like?
- [24:24]
A
And by the way, like, how long ago was this?
- [24:27]
B
So back when you were at Florida State.
- [24:30]
C
So back when I was at Florida State was 2017.
- [24:33]
B
Okay, cool. I just think it's so cool to see, like, timelines in people's life because, like, that. That person, when you refer back to, probably feels so different than the person you are now. Like, married, kids, being who you are, speaking to, the things you speak to. But it's like, that's not that long ago. That's like.
- [24:52]
C
It's not.
- [24:52]
B
That's so cool, though. Okay. You get drafted, you go into the NBA. Things go a little wild.
- [24:58]
C
Yeah. So. So really just being. What I was talking about was I. I want to. I want to experience the NBA life. I want to be doing what all these guys are doing, and I did it. And, you know, I remember so many moments where it was just like a realization that this is not who I am. I would be at the club, you know, get home, 3:00 in the morning, and. And look at myself in the mirror and say, what are you doing? Like, it wasn't this thing of like, okay, I need to turn to Christ, but it was like, this doesn't fit who I am. Even though I don't know who I am, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just following and doing what everybody else is doing. But it was easy for me to realize that I'm also trying to fit this mold that I'm just not. And so everything starts to go crazy around the time I'm in Orlando. I got drafted. I'm. The preseason is going on, and it really is a long story, and it's a lot to share. And I'm not trying to do a shameless plug, but it is all in the book, like, the intricacies of it.
- [25:59]
B
No shameless plug. That's why you write a book.
- [26:01]
C
No shameless plug. Check out the book why I Stand, and it'll give you all the nitty gritty. But if I'm going to summarize this. I meet a man on an elevator, and he says to me, young man, I can tell you how to be great. And I said, how? And he said, you have to know Jesus. And I said, man, I'm a Christian. I know Jesus. Leave me alone. But during that time, it was right around that time, I had got invited to a chapel. So in the NBA, 60 minutes before every game, there's a team chapel. And one of my teammates invited me. I go, yeah, I'll go to chapel with you. And the. The pastor over the chapel says, we're going to read from Luke 6:46. And that verse says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, and not do what I say? And it, like, smacked me in my face. I was like, that is me, you know? And what's funny is I. I had never, like, knew Jesus to be, like, confrontational like that, like, up in your face, like, yo, like, why do you call me Lord and not do what I say? Like, what's the deal? And expecting an answer like, why do you do that? And I was like. And the question just really stuck with me. And I started. I was thinking about it during the game, I was thinking about it after the game. And I had kind of came to this conclusion in my life where I was like, look, I'm either going to drop the whole Christian label altogether and just kind of live my life, or I'm going to actually try to figure this thing out. Like, what is actually going on so much to the point where I started, like, researching Christian apologetics like crazy. So William Lane Craig, John Lennox, Frank Turek, Ravi Zacharias, all these different people I'm binge watching to, to kind of to learn. And it got me right up to the cliff. It didn't make me jump off, but it got me right where I was like, this. This doesn't make any sense. This has to be real. But I didn't quite understand it. So I meet that guy on an elevator, and he says to me, I can tell you how to be great. And he said, you Got to know Christ. And from that moment is what I understand of God ordering your footsteps. Because there are so many just crazy things that happen, of meeting people in certain places and all this weird stuff. But long story short, that man is my pastor today.
- [28:11]
B
That's so crazy. The man on the elevator.
- [28:14]
C
The man on the elevator is my pastor today. And what he taught me truly is just about the unconditional love of God, the love of God, the love of Christ. And that's what started to really change my life. And I started to learn that I didn't have to make a basket, I didn't have to score a point, I didn't have to do anything. I didn't have to work for love. And it's still something that I have to go back to daily where I'm like, john, you don't have to work. Yeah, right here in this moment, in your dysfunction, in your fear, in your anxiety, in your sin, in your. You are loved. And it was just this revolutionary thing for me. And I started going to the church, and the church is where I met my wife. We're on our second kid now. But it was. It was just like, I just started. I just became a sponge. I started learning, and I started, you know, being mentored by. By him. And my life just started to change. I started to see differences in me and the court and the way that I was approaching the game. And there were all these little moments of God having me face fear. And one of them was after I started going to the church for a while. I had this weird moment in my room where I felt like something was telling me to preach. So I went over to my mirror and I grabbed the brush and I'm preaching in front of the mirror.
- [29:41]
B
That's so good.
- [29:42]
C
And I tell him about it, and he's like, well, God's calling you to preach. And I'm like, no, he's not. And so he's like, I think you should preach, and I think you should invite your teammates. And I said to him, I think you're trying to embarrass me. This is what this is about. But these are the same teammates that I was in the club with just a few months before. So now I'm supposed to go to them and say to them, hey, I'm going to be preaching at church on Sunday. You know, could you please come? And he says to me, look, really only give me your answer after you really pray about it. I pray about it. Of course, God is saying to do it, and I do it. I Go to all of them individually, I tell them I'm going to be preaching. None of them showed up. But it was just about mustering to faith to do it. And it was so funny because it wasn't me. It wasn't like me to ever do something like that. So I had all these little moments of standing up and choosing to believe and fight through the fear, fight through the anxiety. And I understand now that God was preparing me for what he ended up having me to do. But, but that's where, that's where it all started from.
- [30:55]
B
A man in the elevator.
- [30:56]
A
And like, I mean, we've all been in an elevator.
- [30:59]
B
Elevator moments are awkward. Like you try to like get past him. You know, it's like, hurry up and get there, hoping there's elevator music. But yet, like, I just love that your pastor, before he was your pastor, took the opportunity to ask like a thought provoking question. And that's what's so cool. I love how you said, like, you never realized Jesus was confrontational. But Jesus just asks so many questions, like most of his responses are questions. And I think that's so good because he puts it on you. Like, what do you think about this? Where are you at? Like, where's your heart? And then like, you got to think about it. And I love how you came to the point. It's like I either dropped this, like, because I'm not just gonna say I'm a Christian and it doesn't mean anything. Like it either drops or it actually becomes something in my life. And then like just such a cool turn of events that God would call you like someone who is used to strug with like what people thought of you and anxiety, to have to literally go to your teammates who you were just out in the club with, because that's one of the hardest things for people who like have a transformational moment with Christ is what are the people going to think about me, who saw me in my past?
- [32:04]
C
And I would even say not to cut you off, but I would say still. I think one of the things for me is it's still something that I struggle with, you know what I'm saying? But. But it has. Well, one through just kind of being on the word and being around people that encourage me. But one of the things my pastor always tells me is like, you're always gonna have to speak back because the enemy is always going to be lying. It's exactly who he is. He will always lie. Whether you have defeated, whether you've overcome anxiety a hundred times, he's gonna lie on the 101st time. And so it's still something for me where I'm like, like on a daily basis, I have to be like, I have to believe the word, trust the word, and trust the love of God. And there's so many times still that I. That. That I don't do it and that I struggle with the fear and I struggle with the anxiety. But God is still right there. He's still right there. And he's still loving me, and he's still loving you. And that's what's so hard for us to grasp in our little finite, finite brains.
- [33:09]
A
Christian and I have been in a pretty busy season of our life right now from traveling, filming, recording, speaking, and of course, raising our family. It is pretty wild. But I'm so thankful. With all the running around we've been doing lately, it can be tough to remember to stay hydrated. And that is why I love Element. It's a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water that was born from growing amount of research showing that we actually need more sodium than we thought we did. So every sick pack includes a meaningful dose of electrolytes without all the sugar, artificial colors, and shady ingredients. Staying hydrated. It isn't just about drinking water. It's also about maintaining your body's fluid balance so that you can feel your best and keep up with all the things going on in your life. And Element helps you do just that. Whenever we are electrolyte deficient, it's pretty obvious we get headaches, cramps, brain fog, fatigue, and weakness. So Element is formulated for literally anyone who is looking to restore their health by meeting their hydration needs. Element is used by special forces teams, athletes, podcast hosts, and just everyday people living their best life. And if you're into cold weather sports like skiing, snowmobiling, ice skating, or just shoveling snow down your driveway, Element has something special for you. You can actually enjoy Element flavors that are designed to be served hot like chocolate mint chocolate, raspberry or chocolate chai. And that sounds like it would probably be perfect in a mug of hot chocolate after hitting the slopes. So that is a great way to stay hydrated. We love Element. We definitely love it whenever we're sick or whenever we've worked out or anything like that. It just helps you get hydrated so much. F Christian loves the sparkling one. I prefer the packets, and of course, like I mentioned, the hot ones as well. All of it is so good. So be sure to try the new Element hot And get your free sample pack with any Element purchase@drink element.com. whoa. That's drink element. D R, I, N K L, m n t.com/. Whoa.
- [35:02]
B
It's so cool that you say that. So, like, whenever I first heard about you, I heard about you during, you know, the height of Black Lives Matter and the COVID year, and everything was so crazy, and you made a decision to, like, stand, and I want to hear about that. But it was like, so, like, I heard about you, and then I was like, oh, man. He, like, got to seeing, like, that you're a strong believer and different things. And then, like, fast forward to now, and someone was like, oh, like, you should have Jonathan on your podcast. And I was referring back. I was like, oh, was that the guy who did this? And yeah, yeah, I've seen all that. It's so cool. But in my mind and, like, my perspective of you, because all I had seen was, like, this controversial moment, and you had this thing that you did out of, like, your. Which I want to hear, like, why. But it was just interesting because I was like, wow, okay, that was a little bit controversial. And then when I was seeing what you coming on the podcast, I was like, I wonder if I'm gonna ask him about that. But then after I, like, began to dive into your story and hear that you're someone who actually, like, has really struggled with anxiety and, like, really struggle with what people thought of you, then I was like, wait, this takes on, like, a whole nother, like, depth. Because I'm like, okay, this isn't someone who's, like, a controversial person to be controversial. This isn't someone who, like, does something to be different than the crowd. Like, if I struggle with anxiety, I struggle with people thinking about me. I know, like, when you make a decision like that, it's not cause you want to. It's not because you're like, let's make a move. No, it's like, something in you, like, you feel conviction. The Lord said something, and out of obedience, you do it. And so I feel like that made me so much more intrigued whenever I realized that. That what you struggle with. So take us to that moment. Like, why. Why did you make the decision that you made? If that's okay to say. If that's okay.
- [36:46]
C
Yeah, no, of course. Of course. Of course, man. Well, I. I appreciate you saying that because I feel like I. I did experience that a lot afterwards where, you know, some people were like, well, we. We don't want to hear from you or kind of talk to you because of how controversial it was. And you know, a lot of people never got the, the backstory. And that's really, that's, that's a part of why I think the book was so successful was because people got to understand it like, this isn't just some guy that, you know, I'm, you know, I'm strong in my faith, I know Christ and I'm doing this self righteous thing. It was like, nah, this is some scared kid who felt convicted in a way and tried to, you know, in his best way do it in a humble fashion. But honestly, it's so hard to put it into words. How scary and how just trying that time was for me personally and just everything that was going on. So you guys know how crazy it was and first off, how tragic the death of George Floyd was, the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement and organization. And for me, honestly, it was always about a solution. It was me saying, look, I see the problem, I see the issue. I saw what happened to George Floyd. What is going to be the thing that brings change? And so one of the things that went on was my pastor was preaching. This was right before we were going to go into the bubble, before there was any talk about kneeling or anything like that. And he was preaching, it was during the time of the riots as well. And he was preaching just saying through the story of when Peter jumps forward and cuts off the guy's ear. And he was trying to relay that this moment is like that moment in the sense of something has happened and our response is going to dictate what follows. And he was saying how Jesus said, if you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. And he was like, he was mainly talking kind of about black people. And he was like, if we jump into this moment in the same way that that's kind of we're used to, or our flesh calls us to, then we're not going to have real change or progress or reconciliation or anything like that that we believe Christ wants. We're going to get the same result. And so going into the bubble, I had this mindset of love. No matter how it comes out or even if I don't even have to say anything, I didn't know that there was going to be kneeling or anything like that. But it was just like, I have this different perspective of I'm going to choose to love, I'm going to choose to forgive. I'm going to choose to lift up the name of Jesus and the gospel and let that be what creates Change and reconciliation and everything like that. And it turned out that just the Black Lives Matter movement was not on the same wavelength as that of that, in my opinion. And so, you know, a lot of the conversations that I had with people that were very involved in the movement, I would say things like that, well, I believe that this moment, God is calling us. This is an opportunity, right? This. This tragedy is an opportunity to bring healing and. And restoration. Well, this isn't that kind of moment is. Is what I heard a lot of the time. This, you know, this is. We. We're not with that right now. And. And I respected that, and I was like, well, we're just not the same, and that's okay, you know, even though we may, you know, share the. Share the same skin color. And so I go into the bubble and we start hearing these murmurs about teams are going to be kneeling for the national anthem. And I was like, oh, Lord. Oh, goodness. And so, you know, we have a whole team meeting with all the, you know, the officials, and they say, pretty much, hey, we're going to leave this decision on you guys, because we were going to play the next day, and all the teams that played before us already knelt. So it was like that time was coming. It's our decision. So we get into this players only meeting, and everybody's like, look, we don't have a choice. There's no choice to be made here. If we don't kneel, then it is going to look like we are not. With everything that's going on right now, it doesn't matter. Let's just wrap this meeting up, okay? We're done. At the end of the meeting, one of my teammates turned towards me, and I still, to this day, don't know why he did that, but he said, jonathan, what are you going to do? And it was like you could hear a pin drop. And I was like, fellas, I'm not gonna kneel, and I'm not gonna wear the T shirt. Wow. And it was like chaos erupted. Oh, my gosh, here we go. And I tell this. I've told this story so many times, but every time I tell it, it's like. It's, like, so real to me because it was just what was happening. And they're like, here we go, man. What is your problem? What is your deal? And I was like, fellas, I can't throw stones from a glass house. I was like, I've fallen short. And I'm trying to get them to see it, but, you know, from my perspective. And I was Just like, I've fallen short. Like, I'm not perfect. And if my worst moment or my mistake or something that I even did deliberately, you know, was seen for everybody to see, I would want mercy or I'd want understanding. I'd want anything. And I said, I just want to use this moment to lift up Christ. And one of my teammates was like, man, you've never done anything in your life. It was funny. But, yeah. So we have this. And one of the vets on our team is just like, look, everybody, do whatever you want to do tomorrow now, because this is going to be a whole show. And so I leave, and I can't sleep that night. And I'm on the phone with my pastor and I'm telling him about the situation and how I wasn't going to kneel and everything. And I literally was like, look, I don't think you understand how crazy this is going to be. Like, I'm going to be a sellout. Like, I'm. I'm going to lose my black card. I'm going to be. I'm going to be on SportsCenter. I'm going to be on ESPN. I'm going to be on TMZ. Like, I'm going to be everywhere. And I hadn't signed my contract extension that was coming up after the season was over with. And he said something to me. He said, jonathan, you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you. You. And I was like, I hate you.
- [42:38]
B
That's so good.
- [42:40]
C
And I. I was trying to give him a lot of reasons for him to be like, okay, I. I understand how crazy this is going to be. So kind of just don't do it. Yeah. And he was like, you. You can't. You can't stand for God and God not stand for you. I don't know how he's going to stand, but you can't do it and him not stand for you. And I said, okay, I'm going to go through with it. And the next day, it. It. It happened. And I remember just standing there. Everybody's staring at me while we were warming up. I'm the only one out there without the Black Lives Matter T shirt on. My teammates looking at me like, there's the other team's looking at me. The refs are looking at me in disgust. It was awful. And so I'm just standing there, and I was just praying under my breath, like, God, like, you gotta do. You gotta help me. Like, you gotta help me. You gotta help me to say the right thing. And to portray what I'm trying to, what I'm doing, because I don't know, I just know that it's right, in my opinion. And so that was that. And we had, you know, after I get all the questions and the, you know, do you even believe that black lives matter? You know, and all these different stuff. And I'm like, no, that's not. That's not it. That's not what this is about. This is about Jesus said if he be lifted up, he would draw on men to himself. And I understand that racism and all the things that plague our society, because there's more than just racism, our heart issues. And if we could. Could fix the heart, which we know the gospel does, then we could have. We could have what everybody wants, which is real peace, if that's what everybody wants. And so. So, yeah, so that was that. And I think. I think this line that kept coming to me was if. If we could love each other the way that God loves us, right? Which is in spite of our sin, in spite of our shortcoming, in spite of our differences, in spite of, you did me wrong, he did me wrong, then we could have. We could have true reconciliation, true love, true peace. But we know that that's not. That. That's not going to happen, you know, on. On this world. So. But yeah, that was that. And obviously there was a ton of backlash. I knew it was coming. I tried my best to stay off of social media, but it was hard. But the amount of encouragement, the amount of letters that I got, the amount of people who understood where I was coming from, it blew my mind. And that, you know, that turned into the book that turned into everything that you kind of see today.
- [44:51]
B
Well, I think it's so powerful because it's like you were standing for a reason. I think, again, it wasn't to be controversial. You had such a reason, and it was such a good reason. It's not that you didn't care. It's that you cared so much. It's not that you didn't care. It's just that you were like, I see what everyone's doing, and I care so much about that. But let me tell you what I really think is going to heal us, what's really going to help us, and it was actually drawing people away from just, you know, a movement to, like, what actually could change lives. And so I think that's what makes it, like, so powerful is, is that you stood for such a strong reason and such a strong conviction, and then you portrayed it in Such a loving way. And I think a lot of times when people do make a controversial move, it's not attached to love, you know. And that's why, like, that's what's so cool about you still doing what you're doing. Like still playing basketball still. Like, you wrote a book that was very successful in doing all this. Like, that was in the midst of cancel culture. Like so many people did stuff during that time that like got canceled, you know, like done. And you did something during that time that like could have got you canceled, but yet you've had more impact, more success from it. And that's because you did it out of love. Like, you did it for a reason. And the things that you did it for, the things that you still stand for, the things that you still care about, which I think speaks so much to the integrity of it.
- [46:20]
A
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- [47:19]
B
Dr. Amen, who's been on the podcast.
- [47:21]
A
A couple times and he has so many titles on Audible, you can listen to those titles.
- [47:24]
B
You can grow mentally and emotionally as you listen to him.
- [47:28]
A
So let Audible help you reach the goals that you set for yourself. Start listening today when you sign up for a free 30 day trial@Audible.com. whoa. Again, that's Audible A U D I B L E dot com. Whoa.
- [47:45]
D
That's the cool thing too. I feel like, you know, it even helps for, from like the judgment side of things for people not to judge because you know, if you're on the outside looking in and people see you do that, but then yet they don't know that the night before you can't sleep, you're crying all night, you're talking to your pastor. Like, you're actually wrestling with, you know, the human. And, like, yeah, it's not like you woke up and you wanted to be, you know, wanted to make this stand. It was like, something that you actually really wrestled over. And I think that's. I think that's cool for people listening, you know, who see a certain thing. It's like, you. You don't, you know, you don't always know the full story. And I think we, you know, need to be slower to judge people for things that we don't know the full story to. So it's cool to hear the backstory of, like, the night before it happened, you know, all the things that you were wrestling with and the conversations that you had and, you know, just the anxiety that you were kind of facing towards it.
- [48:36]
A
I love it. I just love what you shared.
- [48:37]
B
Because Christian and I were talking about this the other day because he, like, wanted to post this whole thing about.
- [48:42]
D
Oh, I was so happy Tik Tok. I was so happy when Tik Tok got banned.
- [48:46]
B
Christian, like, hates Tik Tok. So he wanted to post this, like, video about how this is the best thing, actually, that's happened. And, like, and it was a little controversial, in my opinion, what he was wanting to post. And I was like, okay, let me just. Let me just tell you my opinion. I'm like, I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't going to agree with you. I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't going to like it. What. Why I don't think you should post it is because, like, I don't hear, like, love in your tone. And I think, like you said, you're not offering a solution, and you're not offering a solution. Like, if you. If you were doing this because you really cared about how TikTok has negatively impacted people, which I think you do, then your tone needs to be like, why it would be so much better for your life. Like, the solution, why you care about it, how social media has negatively impacted your life, and, like, the road you went down with Snapchat and how you see similarities on TikTok, I was like, because you do have a reason, but you're not expressing the reason. All I hear is like, TikTok's the worst thing ever. I'm so glad that we don't have it. And it's like, rejoicing in something people are sad about losing. So instead of that, it's like you need to offer, like, a solution, a care, a heart response. Like, think about it for a couple more days and maybe, like, add, like, some scripture to it, like a reason for it, you know? So it's just funny because I do think, like, so much about how you come about things. It's not that you can't talk about a topic because it's controversial. It's just how you do it and why you do it. And at the end of the day, like, why you make that decision. In a second, I want us to talk about unitis because I think it's so amazing. And like I said, what is so cool to the integrity of what you did is that you're still doing it. You're still preaching it. You're preaching it loudly. But before I do, I had to ask you a question I'm so intrigued in, because I think so many people, like, not even with cancel culture, but just in life, you surround yourself by people who kind of agree with you, who think like you do, who, you know, live similar lifestyles. But when you're on a team of people, like, you are placed on a team of people that y'all are, like, y'all could be so different in so many ways, but, like, you have a commonality in basketball. Well, I'm sure, like, some of the guys are some of your best friends. Some of y'all are probably so different. And in moments like that, where you make a decision that's different than your whole team, like, how do you work past that? Like, you're still in the. Like you're still in the same team. You got to work past it. You're in a season. Like, do you think that's helped you in life, be able to get along with people who are different than you just by being on a actual basketball team, learning how to, like, be a team with people in general. Does that make sense?
- [51:15]
C
Absolutely. And that wasn't even the worst of it. So not to take a lot of more time, but we. So after I stood, right. So this goes in right, what you're saying, we still had to play. So it wasn't like, that was just one game. Like, there were other games to play. And so. And were. They. Were. They were going to keep. The teams were going to keep kneeling. So it wasn't like just you stood and that was it. You're going to leave the bubble now. So after that day is over, with all the media, everything, the next day Is practice. We go to practice, we're leaving practice on the bus back to the hotel, and I get a text to my phone, hey, team only meeting. When we get to the hotel, I'm getting off the bus. One of my teammates is like, yo, this just is a heads up for you. This, this is about you just letting you know. And so I'm like, oh, Lord, what's this gonna be? So I get in there and it's. It's heated. Like, we. We had a few guys on our team that were like, they were really deep in the movement. Like, they went to the protest. Like they were. And they were like, look, we're not kneeling next to you standing. Like, we will stay in the locker room. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, like I wasn't ready for it. And at the same time, we had guys on our team that were like, yo, look, we know Jonathan. Like, like, we, we. We know this isn't about him wanting to take the spotlight or anything like that. Like, we know him. My nickname on the team was Baby Jesus. That's what they called me. They're like, we know this guy. Like, just let him be. And so I was just, like, I tried to get them understand, Like, I wasn't protesting, y'all. Like, I. I wasn't protesting your protest. I was just saying I have a different solution and I respect you guys decisions to make. Like, just please give me that same respect in return. And so we had to end that meeting. And I remember I called my pastor crying. I was like, yo, like, I did something wrong. Like, I messed up. Like, I didn't. It didn't go right. Like, just the whole nine. And my pastor's like, he's like the OG. He's like, he's really dope. His name is Dr. Duron Hepburn. Like, he's a straight shooter. He was like, no, no, you did exactly what you were supposed to do. He was like, you respected them, Neil. You know, they gotta respect you standing you keep in it. But to that point, it's like it still had to go on. And I still love every single one of those guys. And I understood also how emotional the time was, right? Like, I'm looking at, like, I understand, like, why they'd be so mad or why the country's upset. Why half the country's. I get it. And so I had to come in there with humility as well. Like, not like, oh, I know everything and I know the right answer. And. And I'm self righteous or above you guys because I have this opinion, I really tried to be lowly in it and be like, look, guys, I respect you guys. This is just kind of my prerogative. And it worked out because later on, I had a lot of conversations with some of those guys, and they were even like, yo, sorry. Like, I was really emotional during that time. And, you know, after certain things came up, came out about Black Lives Matter organization, everything like that, they were like, I was too deep invested to understand what was happening. And I think because of the position, because of the heart posture that I took, it made that easier. But if. I think if I went in there with the, you know, I know God and you guys don't, it would have been a lot harder for me.
- [54:25]
B
Yeah, that's so good.
- [54:26]
A
I love that.
- [54:27]
B
So from all this, too, came Unite us, which we are all repping right now. I got my T shirt. Christian's got his shoes. You're rocking your hoodie, and you even play in your shoes. Tell us about the brand, why you started it, how that got started. And, yeah, I think it's absolutely incredible. And you have some really cool stuff on there.
- [54:47]
C
Thank you so much. Unitis is my baby, man. It. So during that time in the bubble, after I stood that first time, right, we have that team meeting, and we have to play again, and that second game, I tear my acl.
- [55:01]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [55:03]
C
So I had to leave the bubble, and my team stayed there. And dark, dark, darkest time of my life. It was like I was like, God, God, what is going on? Like, it was. It was. It was awful. I was depressed. Like, it was bad. But I'm grateful for the people that I have around me, because if it wasn't. If it wasn't for my pastor, it wasn't for my wife, I would have quit. Like, I would have just been done. Quit on God, quit on myself. But I've learned about God throughout that process, that God is not just the God of the hills, He's a God of the valleys. And He. He walks you through. He's faithful in times that we're not faithful to him. And. And. And I. I've learned his faithfulness. And one nugget that I. That I took from that was, we. We don't know. I know we read about God being all these things. He's faithful. He's a father to the fathers. He's a mother to the mothers. But you don't know him in those ways until you need him to be those things.
- [56:00]
B
Y.
- [56:01]
C
And it was like, I knew I. God, I know you're Faithful. Because I read about. You're faithful this. But now God, no, I know you're faithful because I needed you to be faithful, and you were. And I got to. I got. I got to experience you in that way. That's what it was for me during that time where it was like I had to restart my whole relationship with God because it was bad. It was bad. And so during that time, right. So I'm injured, and I'm having to come on my road to recovery, and I'm telling my pastor, hey, when I get back. Oh, so I was a Nike athlete at that time. I was signed to Nike, Nike. And, you know, Nike decided not to resign me when I, you know, when I was going to be coming back. And I told him, like, hey, I'll probably try to go with Adidas or something like that when I come back. And he was like, you know, why don't you make your own shoe? And I was like, that. That's how he is. That's exactly how he thinks. Why don't you make your own shoe? I'm like, players don't do that. Like, you have these companies for a reason. And he's like, no, make your own shoe. And so started going down that road and. And God just blessed it. Like, it started. Everything started to fall into place. The right people came around it, and we created the Judah one. And then as that was happening, I get a call from him, and he's like, hey, I'm at the church right now. I'm praying, and I'm looking. So what we have at our altar is the ark of the covenant, Like. Like a replica of it. And it has the fire in the middle and the wings pointed in. And. And he's like. He was praying to God, and he was saying, God, you're the only thing that can unite us. You know, black, white, political divisions, you know, male, female, all these. You're the only thing that can unite us. And he was like, jonathan, you need to name your brand. Unite us. And I was like, mic drop. All right, that's. That's the name. That's the name. And we created the Judah One, which was the first NBA signature sneaker with visible Bible verses on the outside of them.
- [57:44]
B
Wow.
- [57:45]
C
And so all of last season, I'm wearing basketball sneakers that have, you know, different Bible verses on them. Proverbs 28, 1, all. All these different ones. And it was awesome. And, you know, PE people learned about it, and it started to blow up, and we've just grown. Like, we went from the the, the Judah one, now we're working on the Judah two. And, and we came out with some low tops and we came out with the Fortra that Christian has on right now and all of them have Bible verses on them. And it's just been awesome. It's. It's been a great endeavor. A lot of learning, a lot of ups and downs. And it's so funny like being on the opposite side of like a consumer and now you're trying to make product. It's like, oh my gosh, you have no idea what people actually like or what people want. But it's been awesome. But just the heart behind it is I want to give people an alternative, an option that is high quality sports and apparel option that is centered around honoring God and just walking out what it means to be in a relationship with them and how to love people and to do that united and together, man. That's what the brand is about.
- [58:45]
B
That's so cool. I think it's so cool because I love how you say high quality but also Christian because it's cool from someone who truly loves the Lord. So that's going to be a part of the shoe, but also actually plays basketball and is going to be playing in the shoes because you can trust the quality. And Christian put those on. He's like, no, these are actually awesome. He loves them.
- [59:04]
D
I literally love these.
- [59:05]
B
So we are, you know, we were fans before, bigger fans now that we actually know you. Jonathan, it's been so great just hearing your story. Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing everything and we could not be bigger fans of all that you're doing. Turn on you and your family and your career and you unite us and all the things. So thanks for being on the Boothesco podcast.
- [59:25]
A
It has been awesome.
- [59:27]
C
Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you guys.